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The “High Elven Mindset” ?
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NotaDaedraWorshipper✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm afraid that the way you worded it is not a comparison. Maybe something was lost in translation. Either way, I not only never stated the Empire was a nation of goodie two shoes across history, but specifically said that none are innocent, so please just drop it by now. This "Humans good Elves bad" argument was not made, so there is no reason to keep coming back to it. I'm evaluating the Thalmor based on their own merits or lack thereof, not that of others.
As for the Empire - the Empire, at that point, wasn't some belligerent hostile entity threatening Summerset. The Thalmor didn't defend themselves. They assassinated the regent of the Empire. They hunted down their own dissidents in a foreign nation, resulting in massive collateral damage that destroyed an entire city district in Sentinel. They performed a coup in Valenwood to overthrow the legitimate Empire-friendly government to install one more accomodating to themselves. And when they sent an ambassador, they didn't demand justice, they demanded tribute - the political equivalent of me coming up to you, pulling a knife and demanding your money. They demanded they change their faith. They demanded they disband a legitimate government agency. When their demands were denied, they declared war and invaded, leading to countless deaths and, as stated by survivors, a great many atrocities when they sacked, looted and burned the Imperial City.
There is no situation that you could possibly bring up that would make the Thalmor the good guy, given those events.
You forgot how they took credit for returning the moons during the Void Nights to the khajiit. Becoming their saviors and imperial influences drastically went away. Sure, it is unsure if they actually did return them or not, but it feels a bit too coincidental to be completely true.[Lie] Of course! I don't even worship Daedra!2 -
alberichtano✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Yes, humans are too chaotic to understand the benefits of having one ruler for hundreds or even thousands years, for hundred human generations. In this case altmer remind me of Bene Gesserit, as humans with their life span can't create and execute long lasting plans, while those who live (physically or sharing a memory) much longer can. Is it possible to create a perfect park, when a tree needs 200 years to grow? Only for those who live longer than trees.Ik you said not to mention real life but I believe it has something to do with the fact they live to be 300+ years old similarly with the Dunmer.
If you use real life as an example as to how Older generations look down in disgust at young people and shape laws and societal expectation based on tradition and past wars and rivalries that are long past relevant.
Now just imagine that generation disparity times 100 when you consider a young adult, say 21 year old living in the same world as a 221 year old.
4th Era Thalmor hasn't killed anybody for being of another race. 4th Era Thalmor hasn't enslaved anybody for being of another race. 4th Era Thalmor only wants to kill Talos by killing belief in Talos, the false Divine, the Divine without the body (planet). Nothing that wrong in it.JJOtterBear wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »JJOtterBear wrote: »I would suggest moving this to the lore section. but on topic, High elves of the 2nd Era are racists. Xenophobic isolationists. Especially the Thalmor who are closer to actual [snip] with their ideals of elven supremacy.
With regard to the last bit, you may be thinking of the 2nd Era Veiled Heritance and their ideals of elven supremacy, most notable in the College quest on Auridon.
The 2nd Era Thalmor of the 1st
Aldmeri Dominion are more in line with Queen Ayrenn's ideals, helping to keep the Dominion running properly and including Bosmer and Khajiit members in their ranks as well.
A good example of the distinction between the two is the College of Altmer Propriety. Under Tanion, a sympathizer with the Veiled Heritance, the College is abusive to its bosmer and khajiit students. Once you do the quest and throw out the Veiled Heritance teachers, the new Thalmor instructors are considerably better behaved.
[edited to remove quote]
maybe the 2nd Era Thalmor are more behaved on the outside, but by the 4th Era (Skyrim) they are full blown elven supremacists. And have become super facist. That doesn't just come out of nowhere.
I read somewhere (sadly not remembering where exactly) that the 4th era thalmor slaughtered all non-altmer in Summerset isles - and a good deal of "non-pure" altmer as well. And since they went to war to conquer foreign lands, they certainly did their share of killing there too. They seem hellbent on keep killing any and all who stand against them.0 -
alberichtano✭✭✭✭✭
✭
The worse the ruler, the more people are against him. The more people are against him, the more chance he will be murdered. Just statistics.A bad ruler may find himself a dead ruler. Having a long lifespan doesn't prevent murders.
Are you suggesting a bad ruler is incapable of wrecking what he rules over because he most certainly gets murdered?
I mean, it could happen. But it's a far cry from guaranteed, and a good ruler can get murdered just as easily. Any ruler, good or bad, is likely to *** off other powers, internal or external.
Yes, Thalmor declared war. Were the demands met, Thalmor would not declare war. Thus the demands were meant to prevent war.Thalmor demanded such things to prevent the war.
Blades are spies. Captured spies are killed. That is part of their job.
Thalmor victory over Empire was much less destructive both during the war and after the war than the conquest led by Tiber Septim. Anything Thalmor did was done previously to Summerset by the Empire. Thalmor did nothing even slightly compared to the doings of the imperial "heroes' Pelinal and Marukh with the Alessian Order.
As for the nords, they have no right to complain after their violent conquest of Skyrim and destruction of falmer race. Still, nobody is trying to completely eradicate them.
No, the Thalmor declared war when their demands weren't met. They were the aggressors, no if's, but's or maybe's about it. They weren't provoked, they weren't forced, and they certainly weren't in any way not destructive. Even this war came on the heels of the Thalmor ursurping power in both Valenwood and Elsweyr, Thalmor agents hunting down Altmeri dissidents in Sentinel and wrecking an entire district in the process, and because that's not enough they are also very likely responsible for assassinating the imperial Potentate.
As for your comparisons - what Tiber Septim did five centuries earlier is about as much justification as a modern nation using the Dano-Swedish War of 1501 as their Casus Belli, whereas the Nords landing in Skyrim happened in the Merethic Era, many thousand years ago. So idk, lets invade Egypt because they practiced human sacrifice 5000 years ago? And the atrocities of Pelinal are only marginally closer in time - and, while atrocities, still happened within the framework of a slave rebellion against the very elves he slaughtered, even though he clearly went more than just overboard.
So no, there is no version of this where the Thalmor are not warmongering supremacists bent on continent-wide domination without provocation.
500 years is just one elven generation. There are still those who suffered from Tiber Septim himself. There are still those whose parents were killed by Tiber Septim. There is even falmer alive who was the witness of the destruction of his race. It is a huge mistake to look at everything from the perspective of humans who die at a light speed. We humans don't count the generations of insects when we decide to clear our garden from them based on the experience of previous decade.
"The worse the ruler, the more people are against him. The more people are against him, the more chance he will be murdered. Just statistics."
[snip] Being bad isn't a reason to get killed, as long as you can serve and hold the loyalty of the elite. If you are good to the ones near power, you are pretty much safe. If you are good, but on the expense of those at the top, you will be short-lived, no matter how many love you.
[edited for inappropriate content]Edited by ZOS_Icy on August 3, 2021 11:27AM1 -
alberichtano✭✭✭✭✭
✭
The worse the ruler, the more people are against him. The more people are against him, the more chance he will be murdered. Just statistics.A bad ruler may find himself a dead ruler. Having a long lifespan doesn't prevent murders.
Are you suggesting a bad ruler is incapable of wrecking what he rules over because he most certainly gets murdered?
I mean, it could happen. But it's a far cry from guaranteed, and a good ruler can get murdered just as easily. Any ruler, good or bad, is likely to *** off other powers, internal or external.
Yes, Thalmor declared war. Were the demands met, Thalmor would not declare war. Thus the demands were meant to prevent war.Thalmor demanded such things to prevent the war.
Blades are spies. Captured spies are killed. That is part of their job.
Thalmor victory over Empire was much less destructive both during the war and after the war than the conquest led by Tiber Septim. Anything Thalmor did was done previously to Summerset by the Empire. Thalmor did nothing even slightly compared to the doings of the imperial "heroes' Pelinal and Marukh with the Alessian Order.
As for the nords, they have no right to complain after their violent conquest of Skyrim and destruction of falmer race. Still, nobody is trying to completely eradicate them.
No, the Thalmor declared war when their demands weren't met. They were the aggressors, no if's, but's or maybe's about it. They weren't provoked, they weren't forced, and they certainly weren't in any way not destructive. Even this war came on the heels of the Thalmor ursurping power in both Valenwood and Elsweyr, Thalmor agents hunting down Altmeri dissidents in Sentinel and wrecking an entire district in the process, and because that's not enough they are also very likely responsible for assassinating the imperial Potentate.
As for your comparisons - what Tiber Septim did five centuries earlier is about as much justification as a modern nation using the Dano-Swedish War of 1501 as their Casus Belli, whereas the Nords landing in Skyrim happened in the Merethic Era, many thousand years ago. So idk, lets invade Egypt because they practiced human sacrifice 5000 years ago? And the atrocities of Pelinal are only marginally closer in time - and, while atrocities, still happened within the framework of a slave rebellion against the very elves he slaughtered, even though he clearly went more than just overboard.
So no, there is no version of this where the Thalmor are not warmongering supremacists bent on continent-wide domination without provocation.
500 years is just one elven generation. There are still those who suffered from Tiber Septim himself. There are still those whose parents were killed by Tiber Septim. There is even falmer alive who was the witness of the destruction of his race. It is a huge mistake to look at everything from the perspective of humans who die at a light speed. We humans don't count the generations of insects when we decide to clear our garden from them based on the experience of previous decade.
You know, that is a very iffy argument. [snip] Putting demands on other nations with an "or else" is really bad behaviour typical of colonialist nations. "Give us your steel/oil/uranium/bauxite/whatever, or else!"
[edited for inappropriate content]Edited by ZOS_Icy on August 3, 2021 11:29AM2 -
wishlist14✭✭✭✭✭
✭They are snobs in every respect. Personally, I feel they are over compensating for some deep insecurity or shame that's been buried deep for centuries.0 -
Lady_Galadhiel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭alberichtano wrote: »
The worse the ruler, the more people are against him. The more people are against him, the more chance he will be murdered. Just statistics.A bad ruler may find himself a dead ruler. Having a long lifespan doesn't prevent murders.
Are you suggesting a bad ruler is incapable of wrecking what he rules over because he most certainly gets murdered?
I mean, it could happen. But it's a far cry from guaranteed, and a good ruler can get murdered just as easily. Any ruler, good or bad, is likely to *** off other powers, internal or external.
Yes, Thalmor declared war. Were the demands met, Thalmor would not declare war. Thus the demands were meant to prevent war.Thalmor demanded such things to prevent the war.
Blades are spies. Captured spies are killed. That is part of their job.
Thalmor victory over Empire was much less destructive both during the war and after the war than the conquest led by Tiber Septim. Anything Thalmor did was done previously to Summerset by the Empire. Thalmor did nothing even slightly compared to the doings of the imperial "heroes' Pelinal and Marukh with the Alessian Order.
As for the nords, they have no right to complain after their violent conquest of Skyrim and destruction of falmer race. Still, nobody is trying to completely eradicate them.
No, the Thalmor declared war when their demands weren't met. They were the aggressors, no if's, but's or maybe's about it. They weren't provoked, they weren't forced, and they certainly weren't in any way not destructive. Even this war came on the heels of the Thalmor ursurping power in both Valenwood and Elsweyr, Thalmor agents hunting down Altmeri dissidents in Sentinel and wrecking an entire district in the process, and because that's not enough they are also very likely responsible for assassinating the imperial Potentate.
As for your comparisons - what Tiber Septim did five centuries earlier is about as much justification as a modern nation using the Dano-Swedish War of 1501 as their Casus Belli, whereas the Nords landing in Skyrim happened in the Merethic Era, many thousand years ago. So idk, lets invade Egypt because they practiced human sacrifice 5000 years ago? And the atrocities of Pelinal are only marginally closer in time - and, while atrocities, still happened within the framework of a slave rebellion against the very elves he slaughtered, even though he clearly went more than just overboard.
So no, there is no version of this where the Thalmor are not warmongering supremacists bent on continent-wide domination without provocation.
500 years is just one elven generation. There are still those who suffered from Tiber Septim himself. There are still those whose parents were killed by Tiber Septim. There is even falmer alive who was the witness of the destruction of his race. It is a huge mistake to look at everything from the perspective of humans who die at a light speed. We humans don't count the generations of insects when we decide to clear our garden from them based on the experience of previous decade.
You know, that is a very iffy argument. [snip] Putting demands on other nations with an "or else" is really bad behaviour typical of colonialist nations. "Give us your steel/oil/uranium/bauxite/whatever, or else!"
As much as I am reading this thread,I think OP stated clearly to keep it Lore friendly and about ESO,and to keep real life history out.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on August 3, 2021 11:31AMTotal ESO playtime: 8325 hours
ESO plus status: Cancelled
ESO currently uninstalled.3 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭
There were no non-altmer in Summerset Isles to begin with. The opening of the isles in ESO is a retcon and a result of unwillingness to do another meridian disguise and force every player to be (or be recognized as) an altmer on Summerset.alberichtano wrote: »
Yes, humans are too chaotic to understand the benefits of having one ruler for hundreds or even thousands years, for hundred human generations. In this case altmer remind me of Bene Gesserit, as humans with their life span can't create and execute long lasting plans, while those who live (physically or sharing a memory) much longer can. Is it possible to create a perfect park, when a tree needs 200 years to grow? Only for those who live longer than trees.Ik you said not to mention real life but I believe it has something to do with the fact they live to be 300+ years old similarly with the Dunmer.
If you use real life as an example as to how Older generations look down in disgust at young people and shape laws and societal expectation based on tradition and past wars and rivalries that are long past relevant.
Now just imagine that generation disparity times 100 when you consider a young adult, say 21 year old living in the same world as a 221 year old.
4th Era Thalmor hasn't killed anybody for being of another race. 4th Era Thalmor hasn't enslaved anybody for being of another race. 4th Era Thalmor only wants to kill Talos by killing belief in Talos, the false Divine, the Divine without the body (planet). Nothing that wrong in it.JJOtterBear wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »JJOtterBear wrote: »I would suggest moving this to the lore section. but on topic, High elves of the 2nd Era are racists. Xenophobic isolationists. Especially the Thalmor who are closer to actual [snip] with their ideals of elven supremacy.
With regard to the last bit, you may be thinking of the 2nd Era Veiled Heritance and their ideals of elven supremacy, most notable in the College quest on Auridon.
The 2nd Era Thalmor of the 1st
Aldmeri Dominion are more in line with Queen Ayrenn's ideals, helping to keep the Dominion running properly and including Bosmer and Khajiit members in their ranks as well.
A good example of the distinction between the two is the College of Altmer Propriety. Under Tanion, a sympathizer with the Veiled Heritance, the College is abusive to its bosmer and khajiit students. Once you do the quest and throw out the Veiled Heritance teachers, the new Thalmor instructors are considerably better behaved.
[edited to remove quote]
maybe the 2nd Era Thalmor are more behaved on the outside, but by the 4th Era (Skyrim) they are full blown elven supremacists. And have become super facist. That doesn't just come out of nowhere.
I read somewhere (sadly not remembering where exactly) that the 4th era thalmor slaughtered all non-altmer in Summerset isles - and a good deal of "non-pure" altmer as well. And since they went to war to conquer foreign lands, they certainly did their share of killing there too. They seem hellbent on keep killing any and all who stand against them.
You mean the "They slaughtered any who were not "of the blood of the Aldmer"." quote, I guess. That is about not-so-perfect altmers or half-breed (maybe including queen Morgiah, but since neither she nor her half-dunmer children are mentioned, it is unlikely). I mean, killing the daughter of Barenziah would be an event rather famous (there was The Firsthold Revolt about an unsuccessful attempt, so success should be known to many).The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.1 -
Jazraena✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yeeeeeaaah. I don't think I'm the one giving any party a carte blanche here.
So, to summarize:
If I walk up to you, threaten you with a knife and demand your money, I'm the good guy. After all, another person once robbed me, so you were likely going to do the same, and hey, I tried to prevent your death by stating my demands first. Oh, and abandon your religion. Right now. Or else. Reasonable demand, after all, and I'm giving you the chance. It's your own fault, really.
[snip]
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on August 3, 2021 11:32AM4 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭It was not another person. It was the same person with new name. Empire doesn't change. Changing a name doesn't clear history. Changing a name doesn't prevent being responsible for what was done under previous name.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.1 -
Jazraena✭✭✭✭✭
✭If that's the one thing you took out of that, well...
I'll be over here joining VaranisArano with the side-eye.4 -
JKorr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Monte_Cristo wrote: »tomofhyrule wrote: »
3) Yes, yes, First Dominion vs. Third, but the goal of the First Dominion is still bringing Elven rule to Tamriel to rule over the 'lesser' races. But she's supposedly worldly, as we know from her exploits when she should have been studying to rule. But you don't see this goal of lording over the other races much in her dialogue at all. Based on what we know of Altmer culture, Ayrenn is the one who's counter to that, so what gives here? Again, how is she rallying support when she doesn't personally seem to believe in her alliance's cause?
I'm sure there was a line in Auridon where she says that she'd rather an elven baby sit on the ruby throne than a human.
The faction statements. Each faction clearly states the ideals and driving forces behind their alliance.
Ayrenn, no matter what her intentions might be, comes across as more than a little condescending. https://www.imperial-library.info/content/faction-introductionsI have no hatred for the races of Man, but they are young. Like all children, they are driven by emotion. They lack the wisdom that comes with age. I would sooner place an Altmer infant on the Ruby Throne than surrender Tamriel to their capricious whims.
The Altmer, the Bosmer and the Khajiit share the common traits of intelligence, patience and reason. We do not seek riches or plunder. Domination is not our goal, nor is the acclamation of power for its own sake.
Today we make our stand. Today we take back the Ruby Throne, which is ours by ancient right and the blessings of the Divines.
Stand with us.
Ayrenn Arana Aldmeri
Of course, the Thalmor, the Veiled Heritance, random altmer mages, templars, commanders and soldiers DO seek riches, plunder, power for its own sake, and Nirn-wide domination. Ayrenn is actually guilty of that last one; the altmer should have the Ruby Throne by right, and rule everything. Whatever her personal views might be, Ayrenn does follow the stereotype "superior altmer" to a "t".
4 -
Ryuvain✭✭✭✭✭
✭If that's the one thing you took out of that, well...
I'll be over here joining VaranisArano with the side-eye.
And they said I was crazy in thinking that some people roleplay racial stuff in this game too hard. You know who you are out there.That one khajiit obsessed with werewolf behemoth and vampire lord. Lady Thorn is bae, dont @ me.
Werewolf behemoth=vampire lord>blood scion>werewolf>vampire.5 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭There is one important quote that should be taken into account when trying to understand an altmer mindset.
Gradually, as the society grew, social stratification increased. A hierarchy of classes began to form, which is still largely enforced in Summerset to this day. At the top are the Wise, teachers and priests, followed by Artists, Princes, Warriors, Landowners, Merchants, and Workers. Below Workers were the beasts, such as the enslaved goblins, who the Aldmer used to perform the jobs beneath the dignity of the very least of them. The religion of the people also changed because of this change in society: no longer did the Aldmer worship their own ancestors, but the ancestors of their "betters."
(PGE 3)
There are two points that should be taken from this. The first point is, as known from basic mathematics, it is impossible for X to be equal to 1 and to 3 at the same time. Imperials, bretons and so on who are arrogant enough to consider themselves equal to altmer face a "little" problem. Equal to 1 or to 3? Either way one will be lesser and another will be better, and it is understandable that elves don't even consider the possibility that non-elves as a whole deserve anything above Workers (since altmer were not and are not slavers, they don't consider non-altmer as beasts/goblins).
Even worse if those imperials or bretons don't understand the inner structure of altmer society. Then they by their "we are equal to all of you" try to enforce the equality of different altmers (Wise and Workers, Artists and Merchants), something that is an unimaginable insult to any altmer.
It should be noted that altmer recognize exceptions.
- At last, a few Men worthy of respect. I met with an ancient Greybeard who could actually converse with me almost as an equal ~ my only such experience among the humans so far -
( PGE 1)
It is written by someone who is likely to be a sapiarch or a sapiarch apprentice (given his travels and studies), thus Greybeards are considered almost equal to the Wise, the highest of the altmer society.
The second point is altmer religion is based on the worship of the ancestors of betters. Thus those betters should be easily and without a doubt found. Non-elves can only be lesser races in this case, as otherwise they would be part of the betters whose ancestors should be worshiped.
It should be also noted that Aedra means literally "our ancestors". Thus Talos is literally a Daedra, as he is not an ancestor of any altmer. Also thus any Talos worshiper for an altmer is a daedra worshiper, and this is a huge crime in their society.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.2 -
Ghanima_Atreides✭✭✭✭✭
✭That's...certainly a convoluted way to attempt and justify Thalmor beliefs, but Ondolemar makes it pretty clear in Skyrim:
"The Thalmor do not recognize Talos as a god. He was only a man, and does not deserve to a place in our pantheon."
It has nothing to do with him being a "Daedra" (which is a silly concept in itself, as it refers to the primordial beings who refused to participate in the creation of Nirn, not anyone the Altmer don't consider to be an ancestor). Instead, it has everything to do with the Altmer being offended by the idea of a human *gasp!* becoming a god.
I have to say, I'm a bit baffled by why you insist on trying to advocate for a faction that is obviously intended to be objectively terrible. I mean, it's one thing to try and step into a Thalmor's shoes and imagine how such a character might think, what their motivations are and how they might see themselves as doing the right thing for the Altmer race and Tamriel, but quite another to claim that they were actually justified in their actions and beliefs.
[snip] Pointing out supposed racial superiority does not help your argument, fyi.
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on August 3, 2021 11:34AM[The Beauty of Tamriel] My collection of ESO screenshots
Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock.6 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭
"Aedra" and "Daedra" are not relative terms. They are Elvish and exact. Azura is a Daedra both in Skyrim and Morrowind. "Aedra" is usually translated as "ancestor," which is as close as Cyrodilic can come to this Elven concept. "Daedra" means, roughly, "not our ancestors."Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »It has nothing to do with him being a "Daedra" (which is a silly concept in itself, as it refers to the primordial beings who refused to participate in the creation of Nirn, not anyone the Altmer don't consider to be an ancestor). Instead, it has everything to do with the Altmer being offended by the idea of a human *gasp!* becoming a god.
(Aedra and Daedra)
Those who refused to participate in the creation refused to give birth to other beings. Those who participated in the creation actually gave birth to other beings. Creation of the world is very closely connected with being an ancestor. The problem of Talos is much deeper, as he didn't became an actual god. He is simply worshiped as one. Even Mannimarco received his Moon upon ascending. Talos has nothing, no moon, no planet, and this means - no divine body. He is not a part of cosmology of Nirn, he is not a body in Aetherius.
Except they are not objectively terrible or intended to be objectively terrible. They are a product of their age, a normal product for such an age. You can be friends with Ondolemar. He will help you in an Embassy. You can make deal with Thalmor on Solstheim. You can enter the second building of the Embassy without a fight using disguise. You can observe noble behaviour of such high rank Thalmor representatives as Elenwen, Ondolemar or Ancano.Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »I have to say, I'm a bit baffled by why you insist on trying to advocate for a faction that is obviously intended to be objectively terrible. I mean, it's one thing to try and step into a Thalmor's shoes and imagine how such a character might think, what their motivations are and how they might see themselves as doing the right thing for the Altmer race and Tamriel, but quite another to claim that they were actually justified in their actions and beliefs.
The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.2 -
Ghanima_Atreides✭✭✭✭✭
✭The problem of Talos is much deeper, as he didn't became an actual god. He is simply worshiped as one. Even Mannimarco received his Moon upon ascending. Talos has nothing, no moon, no planet, and this means - no divine body. He is not a part of cosmology of Nirn, he is not a body in Aetherius.
Well, the Oblivion DLC Knights of the Nine appears to disagree with your assessment - during the Pilgrimage, you must visit the shrines of the Nine Divines and receive a blessing from each of them - Talos included. This is, IMO, the best proof of the fact that Talos did ascend. Whether he has an associated celestial body or not doesn't seem to matter, and I don't really understand why you insist it must. Talos was never an Aedra - why would he have a celestial body in the first place?Except they are not objectively terrible or intended to be objectively terrible. They are a product of their age, a normal product for such an age. You can be friends with Ondolemar. He will help you in an Embassy. You can make deal with Thalmor on Solstheim. You can enter the second building of the Embassy without a fight using disguise. You can observe noble behaviour of such high rank Thalmor representatives as Elenwen, Ondolemar or Ancano.
You don't make friends with Ondolemar - he simply recognises you as useful agent and uses you. The deal on Solstheim is just that - a transaction. And nothing about his behaviour, Elenwen's or Ancano is in any way what I'd consider noble. Quite the opposite, in fact. Ondolemar is running an inquisition in Markarth. Elenwen is a torturer. Ancano was a typical hubristic mage who tried to take control of a powerful artefact that would have causes massive collateral damage for personal gain. All of them also show nothing but the greatest disdain for everything and everyone around them. I'm sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, it couldn't be more obvious that the writers did not intend them to be a sympathetic faction.
Edited by Ghanima_Atreides on August 3, 2021 12:15PM[The Beauty of Tamriel] My collection of ESO screenshots
Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock.6 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭
It is possible to get a blessing from Reman Stones too. It is possible to get blessings from skaal god-stones.It is possible to get blessings from Veloth (and other dunmer saints).Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »The problem of Talos is much deeper, as he didn't became an actual god. He is simply worshiped as one. Even Mannimarco received his Moon upon ascending. Talos has nothing, no moon, no planet, and this means - no divine body. He is not a part of cosmology of Nirn, he is not a body in Aetherius.
Well, the Oblivion DLC Knights of the Nine appears to disagree with your assessment - during the Pilgrimage, you must visit the shrines of the Nine Divines and receive a blessing from each of them - Talos included. This is, IMO, the best proof of the fact that Talos did ascend. Whether he has an associated celestial body or not doesn't seem to matter, and I don't really understand why you insist it must. Talos was never an Aedra - why would he have a celestial body in the first place?
Mannimarco used the similar way of ascention as Talos and got his celestial body, the Necromancer's Moon, even though he is not an Aedra.
I need your help with something.Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »Except they are not objectively terrible or intended to be objectively terrible. They are a product of their age, a normal product for such an age. You can be friends with Ondolemar. He will help you in an Embassy. You can make deal with Thalmor on Solstheim. You can enter the second building of the Embassy without a fight using disguise. You can observe noble behaviour of such high rank Thalmor representatives as Elenwen, Ondolemar or Ancano.
You don't make friends with Ondolemar - he simply recognises you as useful agent and uses you. The deal on Solstheim is just that - a transaction. And nothing about his behaviour, Elenwen's or Ancano is in any way what I'd consider noble. Quite the opposite, in fact. Ondolemar is running an inquisition in Markarth. Elenwen is a torturer. Ancano was a typical hubristic mage who tried to take control of a powerful artefact that would have causes massive collateral damage for personal gain. All of them also show nothing but the greatest disdain for everything and everyone around them. I'm sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, it couldn't be more obvious that the writers did not intend them to be a sympathetic faction.
What is it, my friend?
Actually, friendship is also an in-game mechanics that selects guests to Elenwen's party. Ondolemar is one of them as a friend, not as part of Thalmor.
Elenwen is friendly on High Hrothgar. She allowed both Dovahkiin and the Blades to leave the summit. Ancano has put a barrier around himself instead of simply killing everyone (that is much easier than setting and maintaining a barrier). He kills only those who actively try to kill him, so he kills only in self defence.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.3 -
Ghanima_Atreides✭✭✭✭✭
✭"Actually, friendship is also an in-game mechanics that selects guests to Elenwen's party. Ondolemar is one of them as a friend, not as part of Thalmor."
I'm sorry, but Ondolemar's supposed friendship never struck me as particularly genuine - rather he had the attitude I'd associate with someone giving a dog a pat on the head for performing a trick. The fact that it's even possible to ask him to help you infiltrate the Embassy is admittedly strange and very much at odds with his character - why would a loyal Thalmor agent want to help someone who's barely an acquaintance against the interests of his own organisation? If anything, that should've made him immediately suspicious and want to alert Elenwen right away.
Hey, maybe he's actually not as loyal as he seems? I'm sure if his part in the whole affair were discovered, he would be sent back to Alinor for "re-education", at the least.
Certainly one way to interpret it, though I think it was just a matter of gameplay mechanics and the devs placing him there as a person the Dragonborn can use for the diversion without thinking too hard about it."Elenwen is friendly on High Hrothgar. She allowed both Dovahkiin and the Blades to leave the summit."
Wow, she allowed them - how noble!
I mean, the alternative would have been to start a fight in the most sacred place in Skyrim, where she was alone and outnumbered, but I'm sure that her friendly, noble nature had everything to do with her decision. It's not like she spent the whole summit dispensing as much venom and veiled threats as she possibly could."Ancano has put a barrier around himself instead of simply killing everyone (that is much easier than setting and maintaining a barrier). He kills only those who actively try to kill him, so he kills only in self defence."
Let me quote him during that fight: "You've come for me, have you? You think I don't know what you're up to? You think I can't destroy you? The power to unmake the world at my fingertips, and you think you can do anything about it?"
Sure, that sounds like a reasonable fellow only acting in self-defence, and definitely not someone mad with power who would have wreaked havoc with the Eye of Magnus. I mean, it was only the power to remake the world at his fingertips he was after, after all! The barrier was there to keep people out and unable to interfere with his doings, rather than protecting anyone. Oh and let's not forget the assassination attempt on the Dragonborn prior to that.
As for the blessings in the Knights of the Nine - it was specifically a Pilgrimage of the *Divines* and it's not considered complete until Talos' blessing is acquired - same as for any other of the Divines. If the Divines' blessing are required at all, and Talos wasn't a Divine, then simply acquiring the other eight should have sufficed, no?
But let's suppose, for the sake of it, that the Thalmor are right, and Talos is indeed just a man that humans worship. What of it? It's not their place to decide what gods other races are allowed to worship, or start wars over it. That's a poor argument. I mean, I can understand why they'd think that way - but it just further proves what kind of faction they are.
That's probably as much as I'll say on the topic, but I feel I've made my point.
[The Beauty of Tamriel] My collection of ESO screenshots
Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock.5 -
Benzux✭✭✭✭
It is possible to get a blessing from Reman Stones too. It is possible to get blessings from skaal god-stones.It is possible to get blessings from Veloth (and other dunmer saints).Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »The problem of Talos is much deeper, as he didn't became an actual god. He is simply worshiped as one. Even Mannimarco received his Moon upon ascending. Talos has nothing, no moon, no planet, and this means - no divine body. He is not a part of cosmology of Nirn, he is not a body in Aetherius.
Well, the Oblivion DLC Knights of the Nine appears to disagree with your assessment - during the Pilgrimage, you must visit the shrines of the Nine Divines and receive a blessing from each of them - Talos included. This is, IMO, the best proof of the fact that Talos did ascend. Whether he has an associated celestial body or not doesn't seem to matter, and I don't really understand why you insist it must. Talos was never an Aedra - why would he have a celestial body in the first place?
Mannimarco used the similar way of ascention as Talos and got his celestial body, the Necromancer's Moon, even though he is not an Aedra.
I need your help with something.Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »Except they are not objectively terrible or intended to be objectively terrible. They are a product of their age, a normal product for such an age. You can be friends with Ondolemar. He will help you in an Embassy. You can make deal with Thalmor on Solstheim. You can enter the second building of the Embassy without a fight using disguise. You can observe noble behaviour of such high rank Thalmor representatives as Elenwen, Ondolemar or Ancano.
You don't make friends with Ondolemar - he simply recognises you as useful agent and uses you. The deal on Solstheim is just that - a transaction. And nothing about his behaviour, Elenwen's or Ancano is in any way what I'd consider noble. Quite the opposite, in fact. Ondolemar is running an inquisition in Markarth. Elenwen is a torturer. Ancano was a typical hubristic mage who tried to take control of a powerful artefact that would have causes massive collateral damage for personal gain. All of them also show nothing but the greatest disdain for everything and everyone around them. I'm sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, it couldn't be more obvious that the writers did not intend them to be a sympathetic faction.
What is it, my friend?
Actually, friendship is also an in-game mechanics that selects guests to Elenwen's party. Ondolemar is one of them as a friend, not as part of Thalmor.
Elenwen is friendly on High Hrothgar. She allowed both Dovahkiin and the Blades to leave the summit. Ancano has put a barrier around himself instead of simply killing everyone (that is much easier than setting and maintaining a barrier). He kills only those who actively try to kill him, so he kills only in self defence.
To add to what Ghanima has already said about Talos, during Oblivion's main questline, the gate to Mankar Camoran's Paradise needs to be opened with both the blood of a Daedra, and the blood of a Divine. And guess whose blood is used to open it? None other than Tiber Septim's, acquired by the Champion of Cyrodiil from his old armour in Sancre Tor.
In addition to this, Talos sends an avatar of himself to Tamriel during the events of TESIII, where he speaks with the Nerevarine about "his old empire" before they confront Dagoth Ur in the heart of Red Mountain, bestowing a blessing of luck in the form of a coin to the Nerevarine as they part.
Both of these points (especially the first one) heavily imply that Tiber Septim did in fact ascend to become the Ninth Divine upon his death. And, if the Thalmor really didn't think Talos was a true god (and thus some kind of "threat" to them), why would they be so insistent on rooting out his worship? The Imperials also worship Reman, another past emperor, who was "just a man", yet the Thalmor don't really give a *** about the Imperials counting him as a part of their pantheon. So, what makes Talos the exception? Simple: the fact that he is in fact a true Divine, ascended from a mortal man.BenzuxGamer - Xbox One since day 1 - CP 1800+Guildmaster of the Sacrificial Warriors, one of the oldest and most member-orientated Guilds on the Xbox One EU Megaserver"Casual" player from Finland who enjoys questing and dumb builds even after well over 1000 CP levels and 4000+ hours. A fan of Argonians, Goats and Elk. Also a massive Otaku (MAL Profile)."Following the meta makes you a sheep. That's why I'm a goat: I go in the opposite direction and make use of the things the sheep cannot." - Me, 2019Characters:Ben-Zu - Argonian MagDK DPS - EP (Main)
Benzuth Telvanni - Dunmer MagSorc DPS - EP
Haknir Head-Crusher - Nord DK Tank/Stam DPS - EP
Delves-Deepest-Depths - Argonian StamBlade DPS - EP
Raises-The-Dead - Argonian Mag Necromancer DPS/Healer - EP (Previously a Sorc healer, RIP)
Bthuzdir Ynzavretz - Dwemer StamSorc DPS - AD (Dunmer in-game)
Fafnir the Dragon - Nord Stam DK DPS - EP
Bloodmage Thalnos - Breton MagBlade DPS - DC
Finnis Wolfheart - Bosmer Stam Warden DPS - EP
Gwyneth - Nord Warden Tank - EP
Kud-Wazei Xeroicas - Argonian Mag Templar DPS/Tank - EP
Barkskin Ben-Zhu - Argonian Warden Healer - EP (Alternate version of main)
Xal-Vakka Xeroicas - Argonian DK Healer - EP
Jaree-Shei the Wamasu - Argonian Sorcerer Tank - EP
Gwennen Ereloth - Snow Elf Mag Warden DPS - EP (Dunmer in-game)
Friedrich der Grosse - Imperial Nightblade Tank - EP
Warfarin - Altmer Nightblade Healer - EP
Lavinia Telvanni - Dunmer Arcanist MagDPS - EP
Studies-Dark-Secrets - Argonian Arcanist StamDPS - EP3 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
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He is loyal. You also need some level of speechcraft to make it happen to persuade him that it is not bad for Thalmor (and it is not bad for the most case, as there is only one forced fight). He is even not hostile after the party, when your plan is known to him (but he is not friendly anymore).Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »"Actually, friendship is also an in-game mechanics that selects guests to Elenwen's party. Ondolemar is one of them as a friend, not as part of Thalmor."
I'm sorry, but Ondolemar's supposed friendship never struck me as particularly genuine - rather he had the attitude I'd associate with someone giving a dog a pat on the head for performing a trick. The fact that it's even possible to ask him to help you infiltrate the Embassy is admittedly strange and very much at odds with his character - why would a loyal Thalmor agent want to help someone who's barely an acquaintance against the interests of his own organisation? If anything, that should've made him immediately suspicious and want to alert Elenwen right away.
Hey, maybe he's actually not as loyal as he seems? I'm sure if his part in the whole affair were discovered, he would be sent back to Alinor for "re-education", at the least.
Certainly one way to interpret it, though I think it was just a matter of gameplay mechanics and the devs placing him there as a person the Dragonborn can use for the diversion without thinking too hard about it.
No, the alternative would be to capture them on the way back. It is not like there are many roads down the mountain or to Sky Haven Temple. And on the summit she tells the truth and nothing but truth. Both imperials and stormcloaks don't like truth, of course.Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »"Elenwen is friendly on High Hrothgar. She allowed both Dovahkiin and the Blades to leave the summit."
Wow, she allowed them - how noble! I mean, the alternative would have been to start a fight in the most sacred place in Skyrim, where she was alone and outnumbered, but I'm sure that her friendly, noble nature had everything to do with her decision. It's not like she spent the whole summit dispensing as much venom and veiled threats as she possibly could.
Why would you quote him during a fight, when you are trying to kill him? Even there he simply states the truth, he has the power to unmake the world at his fingertips. That doesn't mean that he is going to use this power to unmake the world. Yet he spares Mirabelle and Dovahkiin when putting the first barrier (Mirabelle was killed later when she actively tried to kill him). He spares even those who are inside the big barrier when we return with the staff.Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »"Ancano has put a barrier around himself instead of simply killing everyone (that is much easier than setting and maintaining a barrier). He kills only those who actively try to kill him, so he kills only in self defence."
Let me quote him during that fight: "You've come for me, have you? You think I don't know what you're up to? You think I can't destroy you? The power to unmake the world at my fingertips, and you think you can do anything about it?"
Sure, that sounds like a reasonable fellow only acting in self-defence, and definitely not someone mad with power who would have wreaked havoc with the Eye of Magnus. I mean, it was only the power to remake the world at his fingertips he was after, after all! The barrier was there to keep people out and unable to interfere with his doings, rather than protecting anyone. Oh and let's not forget the assassination attempt on the Dragonborn prior to that.
Faith is a power that gives strength to a god (or a god-like being). That is proven true with Vivec who was keeping the Moon above his city with the powers that he received from his followers even after the events of Morrowind and banishment of the Heart. He was god (after the events), because people worshiped him as god. The same thing with Talos. To kill Talos elves have to kill worship of Talos. And killing Talos is a very understandable revenge after his use of Numidium against the Isles.Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »As for the blessings in the Knights of the Nine - it was specifically a Pilgrimage of the *Divines* and it's not considered complete until Talos' blessing is acquired - same as for any other of the Divines. If the Divines' blessing are required at all, and Talos wasn't a Divine, then simply acquiring the other eight should have sufficed, no?
But let's suppose, for the sake of it, that the Thalmor are right, and Talos is indeed just a man that humans worship. What of it? It's not their place to decide what gods other races are allowed to worship, or start wars over it. That's a poor argument. I mean, I can understand why they'd think that way - but it just further proves what kind of faction they are.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.3 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭
No, the blood of the Divine is the blood of a Dragonborn, it is a blood of Akatosh. The blood of a person who has the power to wear Amulet of Kings. They could save all the trouble and use blood of Martin if they knew all the dovahkiin lore.To add to what Ghanima has already said about Talos, during Oblivion's main questline, the gate to Mankar Camoran's Paradise needs to be opened with both the blood of a Daedra, and the blood of a Divine. And guess whose blood is used to open it? None other than Tiber Septim's, acquired by the Champion of Cyrodiil from his old armour in Sancre Tor.
In addition to this, Talos sends an avatar of himself to Tamriel during the events of TESIII, where he speaks with the Nerevarine about "his old empire" before they confront Dagoth Ur in the heart of Red Mountain, bestowing a blessing of luck in the form of a coin to the Nerevarine as they part.
Vivec is a god, Vives had some avatars, but Vivec is not Divine. There is a difference between being just a god and being a Divine.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.4 -
Benzux✭✭✭✭
No, the blood of the Divine is the blood of a Dragonborn, it is a blood of Akatosh. The blood of a person who has the power to wear Amulet of Kings. They could save all the trouble and use blood of Martin if they knew all the dovahkiin lore.To add to what Ghanima has already said about Talos, during Oblivion's main questline, the gate to Mankar Camoran's Paradise needs to be opened with both the blood of a Daedra, and the blood of a Divine. And guess whose blood is used to open it? None other than Tiber Septim's, acquired by the Champion of Cyrodiil from his old armour in Sancre Tor.
In addition to this, Talos sends an avatar of himself to Tamriel during the events of TESIII, where he speaks with the Nerevarine about "his old empire" before they confront Dagoth Ur in the heart of Red Mountain, bestowing a blessing of luck in the form of a coin to the Nerevarine as they part.
Vivec is a god, Vives had some avatars, but Vivec is not Divine. There is a difference between being just a god and being a Divine.
So, the people involved know that the Septim Emperors are descended from Tiber Septim, who was Dragonborn, (and/or Alessia, who was bestowed that blood by Akatosh himself, but we're not here to debate lineage), but decided that using Martin's blood - the blood of a Septim, dragon blood - wouldn't do the trick, because it wouldn't count as "divine" blood. If only Dragonborn blood was required, the Hero of Kvatch could have just used Martin's blood, like you said - but that doesn't happen, because it isn't just the blood of a Dragonborn they need, it's the blood of a literal god. And, like I said, I'm fairly certain that the people involved (Jauffre, grandmaster of the Blades and Martin himself, who was a priest of Akatosh) very much know the "lore" behind the Dragonblood Emperors, and would have been very aware of what exactly flowed in Martin's veins.
The Tribunal obtained their godhood by siphoning the divine power of the Heart of Lorkhan, the very same being who is often theorized as the one Tiber Septim Mantled in order to ascend. The nature of the Tribunal's godhood is another debate entirely, but it can be said that they didn't reach "true" godhood like Talos did.
This goes a little bit into the metaphysics of TES, and theorizing, but the concept of "Mantling" implies that the number of Divines/Gods in the Aurbis is set. When Lorkhan "died", his spot was left open, and it was Tiber Septim who found a way to take that spot by mantling him, thus becoming Talos.
While there are a lot of controversies surrounding Tiber Septim, the majority of evidence does point towards the fact that he did indeed manage to ascend to "true godhood", becoming the Ninth Divine, upon his death. Like I mentioned in my previous comment, the fact that the Thalmor are being so active in rooting out Talos worship points to the fact that he is indeed a Divine, and that they aren't simply doing it because "he was just a man and thus couldn't have become a god".BenzuxGamer - Xbox One since day 1 - CP 1800+Guildmaster of the Sacrificial Warriors, one of the oldest and most member-orientated Guilds on the Xbox One EU Megaserver"Casual" player from Finland who enjoys questing and dumb builds even after well over 1000 CP levels and 4000+ hours. A fan of Argonians, Goats and Elk. Also a massive Otaku (MAL Profile)."Following the meta makes you a sheep. That's why I'm a goat: I go in the opposite direction and make use of the things the sheep cannot." - Me, 2019Characters:Ben-Zu - Argonian MagDK DPS - EP (Main)
Benzuth Telvanni - Dunmer MagSorc DPS - EP
Haknir Head-Crusher - Nord DK Tank/Stam DPS - EP
Delves-Deepest-Depths - Argonian StamBlade DPS - EP
Raises-The-Dead - Argonian Mag Necromancer DPS/Healer - EP (Previously a Sorc healer, RIP)
Bthuzdir Ynzavretz - Dwemer StamSorc DPS - AD (Dunmer in-game)
Fafnir the Dragon - Nord Stam DK DPS - EP
Bloodmage Thalnos - Breton MagBlade DPS - DC
Finnis Wolfheart - Bosmer Stam Warden DPS - EP
Gwyneth - Nord Warden Tank - EP
Kud-Wazei Xeroicas - Argonian Mag Templar DPS/Tank - EP
Barkskin Ben-Zhu - Argonian Warden Healer - EP (Alternate version of main)
Xal-Vakka Xeroicas - Argonian DK Healer - EP
Jaree-Shei the Wamasu - Argonian Sorcerer Tank - EP
Gwennen Ereloth - Snow Elf Mag Warden DPS - EP (Dunmer in-game)
Friedrich der Grosse - Imperial Nightblade Tank - EP
Warfarin - Altmer Nightblade Healer - EP
Lavinia Telvanni - Dunmer Arcanist MagDPS - EP
Studies-Dark-Secrets - Argonian Arcanist StamDPS - EP2 -
ealdwin✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mirabelle was killed later when she actively tried to kill him.
Well that's just wrong. To quote Tolfdir, a first-person witness to the events:
"She... She didn't make it. When it was clear we were going to have to fall back, she stayed behind and made sure the rest of us were all right."
Mirabelle died while protecting the rest of the members of the college from Ancano's actions. Furthermore, even if she had attacked him (nothing in game suggests that is remotely the case), it would be completely justified. Ancano at that point was a hostile entity—a non-member of the college who entered the college in order to take over and use an artifact that at that moment was the property of the college in a manner which threatened the safety of the college, its inhabitants, and the inhabitants of the nearby town. Don't try and cast Mirabelle as some sort of villain in some bizarre attempt to suggest that all of Ancano's actions were justified. What kind of mixed-up logic is that.
For comparison, that's like if I (since OP didn't want to use real world examples here) somehow was invited to tour Stark Industries, and then just walked up and fired up the Arc Reactor to use it's power. By your logic, the security guards trying to keep everyone else safe are in the wrong to try and stop me from continuing actions which by all suggestions will lead to destruction in the immediate vicinity and threaten others' lives. And when Iron Man does show up, he'll be the villain, not me.3 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭
No, the blood of the Divine is the blood of a Dragonborn, it is a blood of Akatosh. The blood of a person who has the power to wear Amulet of Kings. They could save all the trouble and use blood of Martin if they knew all the dovahkiin lore.To add to what Ghanima has already said about Talos, during Oblivion's main questline, the gate to Mankar Camoran's Paradise needs to be opened with both the blood of a Daedra, and the blood of a Divine. And guess whose blood is used to open it? None other than Tiber Septim's, acquired by the Champion of Cyrodiil from his old armour in Sancre Tor.
In addition to this, Talos sends an avatar of himself to Tamriel during the events of TESIII, where he speaks with the Nerevarine about "his old empire" before they confront Dagoth Ur in the heart of Red Mountain, bestowing a blessing of luck in the form of a coin to the Nerevarine as they part.
Vivec is a god, Vives had some avatars, but Vivec is not Divine. There is a difference between being just a god and being a Divine.
So, the people involved know that the Septim Emperors are descended from Tiber Septim, who was Dragonborn, (and/or Alessia, who was bestowed that blood by Akatosh himself, but we're not here to debate lineage), but decided that using Martin's blood - the blood of a Septim, dragon blood - wouldn't do the trick, because it wouldn't count as "divine" blood. If only Dragonborn blood was required, the Hero of Kvatch could have just used Martin's blood, like you said - but that doesn't happen, because it isn't just the blood of a Dragonborn they need, it's the blood of a literal god. And, like I said, I'm fairly certain that the people involved (Jauffre, grandmaster of the Blades and Martin himself, who was a priest of Akatosh) very much know the "lore" behind the Dragonblood Emperors, and would have been very aware of what exactly flowed in Martin's veins.
The Tribunal obtained their godhood by siphoning the divine power of the Heart of Lorkhan, the very same being who is often theorized as the one Tiber Septim Mantled in order to ascend. The nature of the Tribunal's godhood is another debate entirely, but it can be said that they didn't reach "true" godhood like Talos did.
This goes a little bit into the metaphysics of TES, and theorizing, but the concept of "Mantling" implies that the number of Divines/Gods in the Aurbis is set. When Lorkhan "died", his spot was left open, and it was Tiber Septim who found a way to take that spot by mantling him, thus becoming Talos.
While there are a lot of controversies surrounding Tiber Septim, the majority of evidence does point towards the fact that he did indeed manage to ascend to "true godhood", becoming the Ninth Divine, upon his death. Like I mentioned in my previous comment, the fact that the Thalmor are being so active in rooting out Talos worship points to the fact that he is indeed a Divine, and that they aren't simply doing it because "he was just a man and thus couldn't have become a god".
The blood on the armor was the blood of a man. He was not a god at that point. Even if he became a god after his death, that would not change all drops of his blood that have left his body before. The blood of Martin was not used exactly because everyone at that point thought that dragonborns = septims and that they can wear Amulet of Kings because of their descent from Tiber. They forgot that being a dragonborn means having a blood of Akatosh as a gift. They also clearly were unaware of the nature of dragonborns, or they would not thought that Martin is the last. This gift of Akatosh can be given to anyone if needed (Skyrim's dragonborn can be of any race). It is not even necessary to be given at birth. And if there are no more dragonborns, then such is the will of Akatosh.
You should also note that those names are symbolic. The blood of the daedra is not a literal blood, it is an essence of the daedra in a form of an artifact created by the daedra. The blood of the divine is also not a literal blood, it is an essence of the aedra in a form of an artifact (dragonborn) created by the aedra. Or part (blood) of this artifact.
Talos can be a true divine only with the true divine body, a planet. There is no such planet. There is no need to make theories, when there is an easy way to verify who is divine (and has a body in Aetherius) and who is not.
There were other "the rest of them" who didn't make it too. They were inside the College the whole time. They were not touched by Ancano in any way when there was nobody to protect them. Mirabelle is not a villain, but she clearly is not learning on the mistakes of her boss. Her own words: "I've got to stay here, to see if we can get to Ancano and stop this.".Mirabelle was killed later when she actively tried to kill him.
Well that's just wrong. To quote Tolfdir, a first-person witness to the events:
"She... She didn't make it. When it was clear we were going to have to fall back, she stayed behind and made sure the rest of us were all right."
Mirabelle died while protecting the rest of the members of the college from Ancano's actions. Furthermore, even if she had attacked him (nothing in game suggests that is remotely the case), it would be completely justified. Ancano at that point was a hostile entity—a non-member of the college who entered the college in order to take over and use an artifact that at that moment was the property of the college in a manner which threatened the safety of the college, its inhabitants, and the inhabitants of the nearby town. Don't try and cast Mirabelle as some sort of villain in some bizarre attempt to suggest that all of Ancano's actions were justified. What kind of mixed-up logic is that.
For comparison, that's like if I (since OP didn't want to use real world examples here) somehow was invited to tour Stark Industries, and then just walked up and fired up the Arc Reactor to use it's power. By your logic, the security guards trying to keep everyone else safe are in the wrong to try and stop me from continuing actions which by all suggestions will lead to destruction in the immediate vicinity and threaten others' lives. And when Iron Man does show up, he'll be the villain, not me.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.3 -
Folkb✭✭✭✭✭I'm doing summerset right now and all I can say is even as an altmer I'm looked down upon.
Alter from summerset seem to put their surname above everything else, even their own happiness. Although you do meet some outliers who are much more chill and open but they forwhatever reason decided not to be a slave to status.
Overall though as a society they see themselves above other races and some go so far as to keep the other races down. Plus they don't want others from the outside world within their borders.
With that said that unfortunately makes them racist and xenophobic. Of course they aren't all like that.1 -
Benzux✭✭✭✭
No, the blood of the Divine is the blood of a Dragonborn, it is a blood of Akatosh. The blood of a person who has the power to wear Amulet of Kings. They could save all the trouble and use blood of Martin if they knew all the dovahkiin lore.To add to what Ghanima has already said about Talos, during Oblivion's main questline, the gate to Mankar Camoran's Paradise needs to be opened with both the blood of a Daedra, and the blood of a Divine. And guess whose blood is used to open it? None other than Tiber Septim's, acquired by the Champion of Cyrodiil from his old armour in Sancre Tor.
In addition to this, Talos sends an avatar of himself to Tamriel during the events of TESIII, where he speaks with the Nerevarine about "his old empire" before they confront Dagoth Ur in the heart of Red Mountain, bestowing a blessing of luck in the form of a coin to the Nerevarine as they part.
Vivec is a god, Vives had some avatars, but Vivec is not Divine. There is a difference between being just a god and being a Divine.
So, the people involved know that the Septim Emperors are descended from Tiber Septim, who was Dragonborn, (and/or Alessia, who was bestowed that blood by Akatosh himself, but we're not here to debate lineage), but decided that using Martin's blood - the blood of a Septim, dragon blood - wouldn't do the trick, because it wouldn't count as "divine" blood. If only Dragonborn blood was required, the Hero of Kvatch could have just used Martin's blood, like you said - but that doesn't happen, because it isn't just the blood of a Dragonborn they need, it's the blood of a literal god. And, like I said, I'm fairly certain that the people involved (Jauffre, grandmaster of the Blades and Martin himself, who was a priest of Akatosh) very much know the "lore" behind the Dragonblood Emperors, and would have been very aware of what exactly flowed in Martin's veins.
The Tribunal obtained their godhood by siphoning the divine power of the Heart of Lorkhan, the very same being who is often theorized as the one Tiber Septim Mantled in order to ascend. The nature of the Tribunal's godhood is another debate entirely, but it can be said that they didn't reach "true" godhood like Talos did.
This goes a little bit into the metaphysics of TES, and theorizing, but the concept of "Mantling" implies that the number of Divines/Gods in the Aurbis is set. When Lorkhan "died", his spot was left open, and it was Tiber Septim who found a way to take that spot by mantling him, thus becoming Talos.
While there are a lot of controversies surrounding Tiber Septim, the majority of evidence does point towards the fact that he did indeed manage to ascend to "true godhood", becoming the Ninth Divine, upon his death. Like I mentioned in my previous comment, the fact that the Thalmor are being so active in rooting out Talos worship points to the fact that he is indeed a Divine, and that they aren't simply doing it because "he was just a man and thus couldn't have become a god".
The blood on the armor was the blood of a man. He was not a god at that point. Even if he became a god after his death, that would not change all drops of his blood that have left his body before. The blood of Martin was not used exactly because everyone at that point thought that dragonborns = septims and that they can wear Amulet of Kings because of their descent from Tiber. They forgot that being a dragonborn means having a blood of Akatosh as a gift. They also clearly were unaware of the nature of dragonborns, or they would not thought that Martin is the last. This gift of Akatosh can be given to anyone if needed (Skyrim's dragonborn can be of any race). It is not even necessary to be given at birth. And if there are no more dragonborns, then such is the will of Akatosh.
You should also note that those names are symbolic. The blood of the daedra is not a literal blood, it is an essence of the daedra in a form of an artifact created by the daedra. The blood of the divine is also not a literal blood, it is an essence of the aedra in a form of an artifact (dragonborn) created by the aedra. Or part (blood) of this artifact.
Talos can be a true divine only with the true divine body, a planet. There is no such planet. There is no need to make theories, when there is an easy way to verify who is divine (and has a body in Aetherius) and who is not.
There were other "the rest of them" who didn't make it too. They were inside the College the whole time. They were not touched by Ancano in any way when there was nobody to protect them. Mirabelle is not a villain, but she clearly is not learning on the mistakes of her boss. Her own words: "I've got to stay here, to see if we can get to Ancano and stop this.".Mirabelle was killed later when she actively tried to kill him.
Well that's just wrong. To quote Tolfdir, a first-person witness to the events:
"She... She didn't make it. When it was clear we were going to have to fall back, she stayed behind and made sure the rest of us were all right."
Mirabelle died while protecting the rest of the members of the college from Ancano's actions. Furthermore, even if she had attacked him (nothing in game suggests that is remotely the case), it would be completely justified. Ancano at that point was a hostile entity—a non-member of the college who entered the college in order to take over and use an artifact that at that moment was the property of the college in a manner which threatened the safety of the college, its inhabitants, and the inhabitants of the nearby town. Don't try and cast Mirabelle as some sort of villain in some bizarre attempt to suggest that all of Ancano's actions were justified. What kind of mixed-up logic is that.
For comparison, that's like if I (since OP didn't want to use real world examples here) somehow was invited to tour Stark Industries, and then just walked up and fired up the Arc Reactor to use it's power. By your logic, the security guards trying to keep everyone else safe are in the wrong to try and stop me from continuing actions which by all suggestions will lead to destruction in the immediate vicinity and threaten others' lives. And when Iron Man does show up, he'll be the villain, not me.
I find myself highly doubting that Jauffre and Martin "simply forgot" that the Dragonborn lineage began with Alessia, whose legends very explicitly claim that Akatosh blessed her with his own blood. It is much more likely that Jauffre thought of the possibility, but denied the prospect in favour of something more direct and literal - Talos' blood.
The symbolic approach is an interesting concept, but who is to say that Daedric Artifacts don't contain the blood of the Princes who created them? We don't know about the creation process of these powerful artifacts, but if imbuing a Daedra Lord's essence into them is an integral part of their creation (Umbra supports this theory), isn't blood the simplest form of that?
In regards to the Eight planets within Mundus that represent the original Eight Divines, these celestial bodies only exist because those Aedra had to bind themselves to the mortal plane during its creation. Magnus, who also appears as a god in several pantheons, doesn't have a celestial body (the sun doesn't count, as it's really just a big hole between the planes) of his own due to this lack of binding. It's possible that upon his ascension, Talos "followed" Magnus and now resides in Aetherius, not bound by the mortal plane like his fellow Divines. This would also make Talos more powerful than the Divines, as it would mean that unlike them, he cannot be killed, for he does not have a body bound to Mundus.
And, if we go by the Mantling theory, then Lorkhan's celestial body, the Moons, would have become Talos' "domain" in Mundus when he took Lorkhan's place.BenzuxGamer - Xbox One since day 1 - CP 1800+Guildmaster of the Sacrificial Warriors, one of the oldest and most member-orientated Guilds on the Xbox One EU Megaserver"Casual" player from Finland who enjoys questing and dumb builds even after well over 1000 CP levels and 4000+ hours. A fan of Argonians, Goats and Elk. Also a massive Otaku (MAL Profile)."Following the meta makes you a sheep. That's why I'm a goat: I go in the opposite direction and make use of the things the sheep cannot." - Me, 2019Characters:Ben-Zu - Argonian MagDK DPS - EP (Main)
Benzuth Telvanni - Dunmer MagSorc DPS - EP
Haknir Head-Crusher - Nord DK Tank/Stam DPS - EP
Delves-Deepest-Depths - Argonian StamBlade DPS - EP
Raises-The-Dead - Argonian Mag Necromancer DPS/Healer - EP (Previously a Sorc healer, RIP)
Bthuzdir Ynzavretz - Dwemer StamSorc DPS - AD (Dunmer in-game)
Fafnir the Dragon - Nord Stam DK DPS - EP
Bloodmage Thalnos - Breton MagBlade DPS - DC
Finnis Wolfheart - Bosmer Stam Warden DPS - EP
Gwyneth - Nord Warden Tank - EP
Kud-Wazei Xeroicas - Argonian Mag Templar DPS/Tank - EP
Barkskin Ben-Zhu - Argonian Warden Healer - EP (Alternate version of main)
Xal-Vakka Xeroicas - Argonian DK Healer - EP
Jaree-Shei the Wamasu - Argonian Sorcerer Tank - EP
Gwennen Ereloth - Snow Elf Mag Warden DPS - EP (Dunmer in-game)
Friedrich der Grosse - Imperial Nightblade Tank - EP
Warfarin - Altmer Nightblade Healer - EP
Lavinia Telvanni - Dunmer Arcanist MagDPS - EP
Studies-Dark-Secrets - Argonian Arcanist StamDPS - EP3