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The “High Elven Mindset” ?
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tplink3r1✭✭✭✭✭
✭We do know from researches in the real world that people who obsess with cleanliness and order do tend to be more prone to authoritarian world views, and the altmer fit in these lines very well according to the lore.Edited by tplink3r1 on July 31, 2021 2:44AMVR16 Templar
VR3 Sorcerer0 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Yes, humans are too chaotic to understand the benefits of having one ruler for hundreds or even thousands years, for hundred human generations. In this case altmer remind me of Bene Gesserit, as humans with their life span can't create and execute long lasting plans, while those who live (physically or sharing a memory) much longer can. Is it possible to create a perfect park, when a tree needs 200 years to grow? Only for those who live longer than trees.Ik you said not to mention real life but I believe it has something to do with the fact they live to be 300+ years old similarly with the Dunmer.
If you use real life as an example as to how Older generations look down in disgust at young people and shape laws and societal expectation based on tradition and past wars and rivalries that are long past relevant.
Now just imagine that generation disparity times 100 when you consider a young adult, say 21 year old living in the same world as a 221 year old.
4th Era Thalmor hasn't killed anybody for being of another race. 4th Era Thalmor hasn't enslaved anybody for being of another race. 4th Era Thalmor only wants to kill Talos by killing belief in Talos, the false Divine, the Divine without the body (planet). Nothing that wrong in it.JJOtterBear wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »JJOtterBear wrote: »I would suggest moving this to the lore section. but on topic, High elves of the 2nd Era are racists. Xenophobic isolationists. Especially the Thalmor who are closer to actual [snip] with their ideals of elven supremacy.
With regard to the last bit, you may be thinking of the 2nd Era Veiled Heritance and their ideals of elven supremacy, most notable in the College quest on Auridon.
The 2nd Era Thalmor of the 1st
Aldmeri Dominion are more in line with Queen Ayrenn's ideals, helping to keep the Dominion running properly and including Bosmer and Khajiit members in their ranks as well.
A good example of the distinction between the two is the College of Altmer Propriety. Under Tanion, a sympathizer with the Veiled Heritance, the College is abusive to its bosmer and khajiit students. Once you do the quest and throw out the Veiled Heritance teachers, the new Thalmor instructors are considerably better behaved.
[edited to remove quote]
maybe the 2nd Era Thalmor are more behaved on the outside, but by the 4th Era (Skyrim) they are full blown elven supremacists. And have become super facist. That doesn't just come out of nowhere.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.2 -
Jazraena✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, humans are too chaotic to understand the benefits of having one ruler for hundreds or even thousands years, for hundred human generations. In this case altmer remind me of Bene Gesserit, as humans with their life span can't create and execute long lasting plans, while those who live (physically or sharing a memory) much longer can. Is it possible to create a perfect park, when a tree needs 200 years to grow? Only for those who live longer than trees.
Or the downside. I mean, Kings can already rule for far longer than what we see in IRL democracies, but any absolute or nigh-absolute ruler can be an extreme good or bad. A negative outlier over a human lifespan is already well capable of destroying an Empire.4th Era Thalmor hasn't killed anybody for being of another race. 4th Era Thalmor hasn't enslaved anybody for being of another race. 4th Era Thalmor only wants to kill Talos by killing belief in Talos, the false Divine, the Divine without the body (planet). Nothing that wrong in it.
The 4E Thalmor demanded tribute from a sovereign nation, a change in their faith and the disbandment of a government agency - The Blades - under threat of war. When the Empire refused, they sent the head of every Blade agent in their lands to the Emperor and invaded. The resulting war lasted for four years, and not only saw the remaining territories of the Empire forced to submit to the Thalmors demand, but resulted in Thalmor agents aggressively policing the Talos Ban as an almost Inquisition-like entity able to operate with nigh impunity. Hammerfell, ignoring the Imperial de-facto surrender, was fighting for even longer, and the civil war in Skyrim is a direct result of Thalmor actions.
I mean, there's no innocents among TES nations in general, but what exactly about this isn't inherently wrong?Edited by Jazraena on August 1, 2021 3:15PM2 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭
A bad ruler may find himself a dead ruler. Having a long lifespan doesn't prevent murders.Yes, humans are too chaotic to understand the benefits of having one ruler for hundreds or even thousands years, for hundred human generations. In this case altmer remind me of Bene Gesserit, as humans with their life span can't create and execute long lasting plans, while those who live (physically or sharing a memory) much longer can. Is it possible to create a perfect park, when a tree needs 200 years to grow? Only for those who live longer than trees.
Or the downside. I mean, Kings can already rule for far longer than what we see in IRL democracies, but any absolute or nigh-absolute ruler can be an extreme good or bad. A negative outlier over a human lifespan is already well capable of destroying an Empire.
Thalmor demanded such things to prevent the war.4th Era Thalmor hasn't killed anybody for being of another race. 4th Era Thalmor hasn't enslaved anybody for being of another race. 4th Era Thalmor only wants to kill Talos by killing belief in Talos, the false Divine, the Divine without the body (planet). Nothing that wrong in it.
The 4E Thalmor demanded tribute from a sovereign nation, a change in their faith and the disbandment of a government agency - The Blades - under threat of war. When the Empire refused, they sent the head of every Blade agent in their lands to the Emperor and invaded. The resulting war lasted for four years, and not only saw the remaining territories of the Empire forced to submit to the Thalmors demand, but resulted in Thalmor agents aggressively policing the Talos Ban as an almost Inquisition-like entity able to operate with nigh impunity. Hammerfell, ignoring the Imperial de-facto surrender, was fighting for even longer, and the civil war in Skyrim is a direct result of Thalmor actions.
I mean, there's no innocents among TES nations in general, but what exactly about this isn't inherently wrong?
Blades are spies. Captured spies are killed. That is part of their job.
Thalmor victory over Empire was much less destructive both during the war and after the war than the conquest led by Tiber Septim. Anything Thalmor did was done previously to Summerset by the Empire. Thalmor did nothing even slightly compared to the doings of the imperial "heroes' Pelinal and Marukh with the Alessian Order.
As for the nords, they have no right to complain after their violent conquest of Skyrim and destruction of falmer race. Still, nobody is trying to completely eradicate them.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.2 -
M_Volsung✭✭✭✭✭corrosivechains wrote: »I mean, if you pay attention to most of the dialog from most races in the Elder Scrolls, it's hard to find a race which isn't, by our real life sensibilities, racist. It's a large reason why I hate the whole "Stormcloaks vs Imperials" discussions around Skyrim, because people who haven't really played any other games always default to real world comparisons and "wont somebody PLEASE think of the Dark Elves?!"...almost like they have absolutely no knowledge about the Dark Elves and their history.
"Stormcloaks vs Imperials"? How about neither, I hunt them both, and the thalmor, for sport... along with the occasional city guard... but that's neither here nor there."In the Deep Halls, Far from Men;
Forsaken Red Mountain, Twisted Kin;
Hail the Mind, Hail the Stone;
Dwarven Pride, Stronger than Bone"
—Dwemer Inquiries I-III, Thelwe Ghelein3 -
Jazraena✭✭✭✭✭
✭A bad ruler may find himself a dead ruler. Having a long lifespan doesn't prevent murders.
Are you suggesting a bad ruler is incapable of wrecking what he rules over because he most certainly gets murdered?
I mean, it could happen. But it's a far cry from guaranteed, and a good ruler can get murdered just as easily. Any ruler, good or bad, is likely to *** off other powers, internal or external.Thalmor demanded such things to prevent the war.
Blades are spies. Captured spies are killed. That is part of their job.
Thalmor victory over Empire was much less destructive both during the war and after the war than the conquest led by Tiber Septim. Anything Thalmor did was done previously to Summerset by the Empire. Thalmor did nothing even slightly compared to the doings of the imperial "heroes' Pelinal and Marukh with the Alessian Order.
As for the nords, they have no right to complain after their violent conquest of Skyrim and destruction of falmer race. Still, nobody is trying to completely eradicate them.
No, the Thalmor declared war when their demands weren't met. They were the aggressors, no if's, but's or maybe's about it. They weren't provoked, they weren't forced, and they certainly weren't in any way not destructive. Even this war came on the heels of the Thalmor ursurping power in both Valenwood and Elsweyr, Thalmor agents hunting down Altmeri dissidents in Sentinel and wrecking an entire district in the process, and because that's not enough they are also very likely responsible for assassinating the imperial Potentate.
As for your comparisons - what Tiber Septim did five centuries earlier is about as much justification as a modern nation using the Dano-Swedish War of 1501 as their Casus Belli, whereas the Nords landing in Skyrim happened in the Merethic Era, many thousand years ago. So idk, lets invade Egypt because they practiced human sacrifice 5000 years ago? And the atrocities of Pelinal are only marginally closer in time - and, while atrocities, still happened within the framework of a slave rebellion against the very elves he slaughtered, even though he clearly went more than just overboard.
So no, there is no version of this where the Thalmor are not warmongering supremacists bent on continent-wide domination without provocation.6 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭
The worse the ruler, the more people are against him. The more people are against him, the more chance he will be murdered. Just statistics.A bad ruler may find himself a dead ruler. Having a long lifespan doesn't prevent murders.
Are you suggesting a bad ruler is incapable of wrecking what he rules over because he most certainly gets murdered?
I mean, it could happen. But it's a far cry from guaranteed, and a good ruler can get murdered just as easily. Any ruler, good or bad, is likely to *** off other powers, internal or external.
Yes, Thalmor declared war. Were the demands met, Thalmor would not declare war. Thus the demands were meant to prevent war.Thalmor demanded such things to prevent the war.
Blades are spies. Captured spies are killed. That is part of their job.
Thalmor victory over Empire was much less destructive both during the war and after the war than the conquest led by Tiber Septim. Anything Thalmor did was done previously to Summerset by the Empire. Thalmor did nothing even slightly compared to the doings of the imperial "heroes' Pelinal and Marukh with the Alessian Order.
As for the nords, they have no right to complain after their violent conquest of Skyrim and destruction of falmer race. Still, nobody is trying to completely eradicate them.
No, the Thalmor declared war when their demands weren't met. They were the aggressors, no if's, but's or maybe's about it. They weren't provoked, they weren't forced, and they certainly weren't in any way not destructive. Even this war came on the heels of the Thalmor ursurping power in both Valenwood and Elsweyr, Thalmor agents hunting down Altmeri dissidents in Sentinel and wrecking an entire district in the process, and because that's not enough they are also very likely responsible for assassinating the imperial Potentate.
As for your comparisons - what Tiber Septim did five centuries earlier is about as much justification as a modern nation using the Dano-Swedish War of 1501 as their Casus Belli, whereas the Nords landing in Skyrim happened in the Merethic Era, many thousand years ago. So idk, lets invade Egypt because they practiced human sacrifice 5000 years ago? And the atrocities of Pelinal are only marginally closer in time - and, while atrocities, still happened within the framework of a slave rebellion against the very elves he slaughtered, even though he clearly went more than just overboard.
So no, there is no version of this where the Thalmor are not warmongering supremacists bent on continent-wide domination without provocation.
500 years is just one elven generation. There are still those who suffered from Tiber Septim himself. There are still those whose parents were killed by Tiber Septim. There is even falmer alive who was the witness of the destruction of his race. It is a huge mistake to look at everything from the perspective of humans who die at a light speed. We humans don't count the generations of insects when we decide to clear our garden from them based on the experience of previous decade.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.3 -
Jazraena✭✭✭✭✭
✭You confuse good and bad rulers with popular and unpopular rulers, and ontop forget that those popular with the people might be unpopular with those only one power rung below him - or vice versa.
As for your reasoning, lets work with that:
When I say 'Give me all your money or I kill you' I'm a good guy, because I'm trying to prevent your death. Oh, and Humans are insects to Elves because they have short lives? There's your racial supremacy right there. But okay, Altmer remembering are still alive. Fine. There's people remembering World War II, too. Is that justification for war against Germany or Italy? Or you know, any other armed conflict since. And, once again, Skyrim and Pelinal are even longer ago; much longer than any Altmer's natural lifespan. In fact, during that time, Altmer didn't even exist. It was Ayleid and Aldmer, still!
Sorry, but it doesn't work out, and saying But they are just as bad! is an extremely poor argument in the first place. The Thalmor aren't good guys. They're not even marginally acceptable neutral guys.4 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
The worse the ruler, the more people are against him. The more people are against him, the more chance he will be murdered. Just statistics.A bad ruler may find himself a dead ruler. Having a long lifespan doesn't prevent murders.
Are you suggesting a bad ruler is incapable of wrecking what he rules over because he most certainly gets murdered?
I mean, it could happen. But it's a far cry from guaranteed, and a good ruler can get murdered just as easily. Any ruler, good or bad, is likely to *** off other powers, internal or external.
Yes, Thalmor declared war. Were the demands met, Thalmor would not declare war. Thus the demands were meant to prevent war.Thalmor demanded such things to prevent the war.
Blades are spies. Captured spies are killed. That is part of their job.
Thalmor victory over Empire was much less destructive both during the war and after the war than the conquest led by Tiber Septim. Anything Thalmor did was done previously to Summerset by the Empire. Thalmor did nothing even slightly compared to the doings of the imperial "heroes' Pelinal and Marukh with the Alessian Order.
As for the nords, they have no right to complain after their violent conquest of Skyrim and destruction of falmer race. Still, nobody is trying to completely eradicate them.
No, the Thalmor declared war when their demands weren't met. They were the aggressors, no if's, but's or maybe's about it. They weren't provoked, they weren't forced, and they certainly weren't in any way not destructive. Even this war came on the heels of the Thalmor ursurping power in both Valenwood and Elsweyr, Thalmor agents hunting down Altmeri dissidents in Sentinel and wrecking an entire district in the process, and because that's not enough they are also very likely responsible for assassinating the imperial Potentate.
As for your comparisons - what Tiber Septim did five centuries earlier is about as much justification as a modern nation using the Dano-Swedish War of 1501 as their Casus Belli, whereas the Nords landing in Skyrim happened in the Merethic Era, many thousand years ago. So idk, lets invade Egypt because they practiced human sacrifice 5000 years ago? And the atrocities of Pelinal are only marginally closer in time - and, while atrocities, still happened within the framework of a slave rebellion against the very elves he slaughtered, even though he clearly went more than just overboard.
So no, there is no version of this where the Thalmor are not warmongering supremacists bent on continent-wide domination without provocation.
500 years is just one elven generation. There are still those who suffered from Tiber Septim himself. There are still those whose parents were killed by Tiber Septim. There is even falmer alive who was the witness of the destruction of his race. It is a huge mistake to look at everything from the perspective of humans who die at a light speed. We humans don't count the generations of insects when we decide to clear our garden from them based on the experience of previous decade.
Can you at least be consistent while arguing that the 4th Era Thalmor are really the wronged "good guys" here?
Mer are not to Man as humans are to garden insects, as you well know. We don't send insulting demands to the sovereign ant queen so we can claim justification before we get rid of her nest on our lawn, so let's not pretend that the Altmer aren't fully aware that they are dealing with other people.
There's a reason I side-eye people who stan for the 4th Era Thalmor too hard. It's one thing to look at the situation from their perspective and the justifications they no doubt tell themselves. Nobody's the villain of their own story, you know?
It's quite another to extend that to defending the 4th Era Thalmor as never being the villain at all or trying to paint pro-Thalnor propaganda as the only valid perspective, objectively.Edited by VaranisArano on August 1, 2021 6:17PM7 -
Jazraena✭✭✭✭✭
✭No need, I'm chill here.
Edit: Huh, post I responded to is gone.Edited by Jazraena on August 1, 2021 6:30PM0 -
Arahallris✭✭✭High Elves are extremely complex and there's absolutely nothing wrong with striving for perfection. If one does not strive for perfection then you end up with a degenerate society devoid of morality as well as being creatively bankrupt. When you're leading the world in innovation you can be nothing less than perfect.0 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭You confuse good and bad rulers with popular and unpopular rulers, and ontop forget that those popular with the people might be unpopular with those only one power rung below him - or vice versa.
As for your reasoning, lets work with that:
When I say 'Give me all your money or I kill you' I'm a good guy, because I'm trying to prevent your death. Oh, and Humans are insects to Elves because they have short lives? There's your racial supremacy right there. But okay, Altmer remembering are still alive. Fine. There's people remembering World War II, too. Is that justification for war against Germany or Italy? Or you know, any other armed conflict since. And, once again, Skyrim and Pelinal are even longer ago; much longer than any Altmer's natural lifespan. In fact, during that time, Altmer didn't even exist. It was Ayleid and Aldmer, still!
Sorry, but it doesn't work out, and saying But they are just as bad! is an extremely poor argument in the first place. The Thalmor aren't good guys. They're not even marginally acceptable neutral guys.
I am not confusing anything. Good and bad are relative terms. A good ruler is a ruler good for his people. A bad ruler is a ruler bad for his people. There is a correlation between good and popular, bad and unpopular.
Yes, they are good to make demands, at least much better than Tiber, Titus and others like them who attacked neighbour coutries without any demands and without giving them a chance to escape war.
There is a very good justification to start a war when you know that otherwise the war will be started against you. Imperials of the 4th era were going to start the war to claim all "lost provinces". Titus Mede was restoring the empire. Thalmor stroke before, and that was a wise decision.
Altmer are Aldmer. They were not changed. They simply changed the name.
Example doesn't need to be equal in every bit to serve as illustration. The point is we humans make our decisions based on our lifespans, not on the lifespans of those against whom these decisions are made. The decisions themselves are completely irrelevant when looking at the behaviour of decision-making.VaranisArano wrote: »
The worse the ruler, the more people are against him. The more people are against him, the more chance he will be murdered. Just statistics.A bad ruler may find himself a dead ruler. Having a long lifespan doesn't prevent murders.
Are you suggesting a bad ruler is incapable of wrecking what he rules over because he most certainly gets murdered?
I mean, it could happen. But it's a far cry from guaranteed, and a good ruler can get murdered just as easily. Any ruler, good or bad, is likely to *** off other powers, internal or external.
Yes, Thalmor declared war. Were the demands met, Thalmor would not declare war. Thus the demands were meant to prevent war.Thalmor demanded such things to prevent the war.
Blades are spies. Captured spies are killed. That is part of their job.
Thalmor victory over Empire was much less destructive both during the war and after the war than the conquest led by Tiber Septim. Anything Thalmor did was done previously to Summerset by the Empire. Thalmor did nothing even slightly compared to the doings of the imperial "heroes' Pelinal and Marukh with the Alessian Order.
As for the nords, they have no right to complain after their violent conquest of Skyrim and destruction of falmer race. Still, nobody is trying to completely eradicate them.
No, the Thalmor declared war when their demands weren't met. They were the aggressors, no if's, but's or maybe's about it. They weren't provoked, they weren't forced, and they certainly weren't in any way not destructive. Even this war came on the heels of the Thalmor ursurping power in both Valenwood and Elsweyr, Thalmor agents hunting down Altmeri dissidents in Sentinel and wrecking an entire district in the process, and because that's not enough they are also very likely responsible for assassinating the imperial Potentate.
As for your comparisons - what Tiber Septim did five centuries earlier is about as much justification as a modern nation using the Dano-Swedish War of 1501 as their Casus Belli, whereas the Nords landing in Skyrim happened in the Merethic Era, many thousand years ago. So idk, lets invade Egypt because they practiced human sacrifice 5000 years ago? And the atrocities of Pelinal are only marginally closer in time - and, while atrocities, still happened within the framework of a slave rebellion against the very elves he slaughtered, even though he clearly went more than just overboard.
So no, there is no version of this where the Thalmor are not warmongering supremacists bent on continent-wide domination without provocation.
500 years is just one elven generation. There are still those who suffered from Tiber Septim himself. There are still those whose parents were killed by Tiber Septim. There is even falmer alive who was the witness of the destruction of his race. It is a huge mistake to look at everything from the perspective of humans who die at a light speed. We humans don't count the generations of insects when we decide to clear our garden from them based on the experience of previous decade.
Can you at least be consistent while arguing that the 4th Era Thalmor are really the wronged "good guys" here?
Mer are not to Man as humans are to garden insects, as you well know. We don't send insulting demands to the sovereign ant queen so we can claim justification before we get rid of her nest on our lawn, so let's not pretend that the Altmer aren't fully aware that they are dealing with other people.
There's a reason I side-eye people who stan for the 4th Era Thalmor too hard. It's one thing to look at the situation from their perspective and the justifications they no doubt tell themselves. Nobody's the villain of their own story, you know?
It's quite another to extend that to defending the 4th Era Thalmor as never being the villain at all or trying to paint pro-Thalnor propaganda as the only valid perspective, objectively.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.1 -
Jazraena✭✭✭✭✭
✭I am not confusing anything. Good and bad are relative terms. A good ruler is a ruler good for his people. A bad ruler is a ruler bad for his people. There is a correlation between good and popular, bad and unpopular.
When I'm talking about a 'bad' ruler, I'm talking about incompetent. Incompetence can utterly destroy Empires. An incompetent ruler can still be very popular with his people. Likewise, a competent (and even just, benevolent) ruler can be utterly despised by lesser nobles who may then seek to replace him.Yes, they are good to make demands, at least much better than Tiber, Titus and others like them who attacked neighbour coutries without any demands and without giving them a chance to escape war.
Again, Tiber was long ago, and he very much annexed several provinces into the Empire without war - including the until then unbowed Morrowind, and any actually attacked nation could have surrendered at any time to prevent bloodshed. The notion that any invaders are good guys because their foes could have just submitted to their every whim is absurd.
They demanded submission, were refused, and then invaded unprovoked. This is victim blaming of the highest order. Once again, by this logic I'm a good guy for telling you "Give me all your money or I kill you", and it's entirely your own fault if you die since I tried to prevent your death.There is a very good justification to start a war when you know that otherwise the war will be started against you. Imperials of the 4th era were going to start the war to claim all "lost provinces". Titus Mede was restoring the empire. Thalmor stroke before, and that was a wise decision.
The events I listed happened over the course of almost 2 centuries during which the Thalmor intentionally ursurped territory, destabilized the Empire and eventually invaded. This wasn't preempting an imminent attack, this was a long-term plan to eventually force the Empire into submission. It started long before Titus Mede was even born, against a weakened Empire that didn't even have an Emperor, which is why there was a Potentate around for them to assassinate in the first place.Altmer are Aldmer. They were not changed. They simply changed the name.
Aldmer are ancestors of Maormer, Falmer, Dwemer, Chimer (later Dunmer), Bosmer, Ayleids and Altmer - every type of Mer, really. They are very much not identical.
Edited by Jazraena on August 1, 2021 7:07PM3 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Arahallris wrote: »High Elves are extremely complex and there's absolutely nothing wrong with striving for perfection. If one does not strive for perfection then you end up with a degenerate society devoid of morality as well as being creatively bankrupt. When you're leading the world in innovation you can be nothing less than perfect.
I dunno. When you hit the point where "striving for perfection" means abandoning children who are physically imperfect, I'd say there's something wrong. Altmer abandon their "broken child" as hulkynd. You want to talk about "devoid of morality"? Just because the Spartans did it, doesn't make it right.
Perfection is not all its cracked up to be. When we quest in Summerset, we see families broken apart by striving for perfection, that nobles are forced to marry for lineage, not love, and that the pursuit of Alaxon itself drives many Altmer into lives full of stress and competition with each other.
Fundamentally, people aren't perfect. The Altmer may be striving for perfection, but it's pretty clear that striving for perfection hasn't given them a perfect society or perfect people. Actually, it's landed them with a heap of problems as the theoretically most perfect lineage of Hidelleth, Ayrenn, and Naemon turns out to be just as prone to folly as any other mere mortal.
It's also worth noting that the Altmer ideals have been soundly rejected by other Mer. The Velothi explicitly left Summerset following the three good daedra, and while Dunmer society might be reasonable called "degenerate" and devoid of (coventional) morality, it's not at all fair to say that the Dunmer lack their own sense of morality or are creatively bankrupt. Far from it. The Bosmer, likewise, reject Altmer notions of purity of lineage and do not seek after perfection. Their spinners are surely not lacking in creativity.
Take it from a real-life perfectionist who struggles with the negative side of perfectionism: procrastination, because I fear that if I start, it won't be as good as it should be. Striving for perfection is not some unalloyed good thing. It can be a brutal mirror that shows only your flaws and where you don't measure up, never letting you celebrate your triumphs and strengths.
Let's just say I see the toll that takes on the Altmer because I see it in myself. Striving for perfection can be a good thing. It can also be a very toxic thing. I see both in ESO's representations of the Altmer.4 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Example doesn't need to be equal in every bit to serve as illustration. The point is we humans make our decisions based on our lifespans, not on the lifespans of those against whom these decisions are made. The decisions themselves are completely irrelevant when looking at the behaviour of decision-making.
What you argue here is that lifespan differentials are the most important thing, as opposed to the simple fact that Altmer, Dunmer, Nord, Imperial, Khajiit, Argonian, etc. are all people.
The Altmer are quite aware that their opponents and subjects are people. The 4th Era Thalmor are merely convinced that their descent from the Aedra makes them "better people" and the others "lesser people". Which does not make the Altmer look like the wronged good guys. Quite the opposite.
Needless to say, this line of argumentation does not do you any credit.
But if you are determined to present yourself as such a stalwart defender of the 4th Era Thalmor, well, don't let my side-eye stop you.Edited by VaranisArano on August 1, 2021 7:33PM5 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭
If an incompetent ruler is popular, then he is not bad enough for his nation and for his people. Incompetence matters when it actually makes life worse for people.I am not confusing anything. Good and bad are relative terms. A good ruler is a ruler good for his people. A bad ruler is a ruler bad for his people. There is a correlation between good and popular, bad and unpopular.
When I'm talking about a 'bad' ruler, I'm talking about incompetent. Incompetence can utterly destroy Empires. An incompetent ruler can still be very popular with his people. Likewise, a competent (and even just, benevolent) ruler can be utterly despised by lesser nobles who may then seek to replace him.
Tiber used the weapon of mass destruction, the saint he was.Yes, they are good to make demands, at least much better than Tiber, Titus and others like them who attacked neighbour coutries without any demands and without giving them a chance to escape war.
Again, Tiber was long ago, and he very much annexed several provinces into the Empire without war - including the until then unbowed Morrowind, and any actually attacked nation could have surrendered at any time to prevent bloodshed. The notion that any invaders are good guys because their foes could have just submitted to their every whim is absurd.
They demanded submission, were refused, and then invaded unprovoked. This is victim blaming of the highest order. Once again, by this logic I'm a good guy for telling you "Give me all your money or I kill you", and it's entirely your own fault if you die since I tried to prevent your death.
Titus Mede: "After seven long, bloody years the Stormcrown Interregnum was ended when a Colovian warlord by the name of Titus Mede seized the crown." Without war?
Thalmor wages war. Oh, the horror. Everyone else on Tamriel waged wars. At any period of time. This doesn't make Thalmor worse than absolutely any other political power on Tamriel.
That is not actually true.
Chimer were Aldmer who left Summerset. They were the Aldmer. They have not changed by changing a name. A person who was one day an aldmer on another day became chimer without any change to his appearance or soul. Same thing with Ayleids. Same thing with Altmer. Same with (pure) Falmer. They were the same Aldmer who simply choose another name to make a political statement.
Dunmer were changed by Azura. Orcs were changed by Boethia. Bosmer were changed by Y'ffre. But even for them it is entirely possible to have a still living member of the new race who was an aldmer before the change. For orcs not likely, but among Dunmer there may be some Telvanni (Divayth Fyr was a chimer before becoming a dunmer, for example).
The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.1 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭VaranisArano wrote: »Example doesn't need to be equal in every bit to serve as illustration. The point is we humans make our decisions based on our lifespans, not on the lifespans of those against whom these decisions are made. The decisions themselves are completely irrelevant when looking at the behaviour of decision-making.
What you argue here is that lifespan differentials are the most important thing, as opposed to the simple fact that Altmer, Dunmer, Nord, Imperial, Khajiit, Argonian, etc. are all people.
The Altmer are quite aware that their opponents and subjects are people. The 4th Era Thalmor are merely convinced that their descent from the Aedra makes them "better people" and the others "lesser people". Which does not make the Altmer look like the wronged good guys. Quite the opposite.
Needless to say, this line of argumentation does not do you any credit.
But if you are determined to present yourself as such a stalwart defender of the 4th Era Thalmor, well, don't let my side-eye stop you.
[snip]
At the same time nords and imperials are the same as they were thousands years ago. Nords are the same "Skyrim for the nords", killing everyone they can who may disagree with this. Imperials are the same "We will unite everyone whatever the cost" no matter what those everyone want. It seems that while elves are those who live long, humans behave the same after hundrends of generations despite their short lives.
[Edited for Insulting Comments]Edited by Psiion on August 1, 2021 8:18PMThe Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.0 -
Jazraena✭✭✭✭✭
✭At this point, Olauron, I'm going to ask you to re-read previous posts. You're still engaging in whataboutism.
"Tiber did X" is no argument in favour of the Thalmor. As I said at the very beginning, there are no innocents among the powers of Tamriel. With perhaps the singular exception of the Khajiit.
But just because others are bad guys doesn't mean the Thalmor aren't.2 -
kaushad✭✭✭✭
For all their material sophistication and intellectual legacy, Altmer aren't associated with innovation, especially in ESO. Notes on Elven Architecture says:Arahallris wrote: »When you're leading the world in innovation you can be nothing less than perfect.
"Such structural designs stem from ancient roots, using methods tried and tested, but not to the point of becoming obsolete. The Altmer seek refinement rather than innovation, and they are conceitedly resistant to large-scale changes but are content to tinker. The results reveal highly sophisticated precision, harmony, and the selection and repetition of orthodox compositions."
Even in TESIII, Dunmer (who bashed every other culture to be fair) said:
"They content themselves with reliving the aged glories of their martial traditions and their mastery of sorcery and enchantment. Their achievements are admirable, but their culture no longer serves any vital purpose."
1 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭At this point, Olauron, I'm going to ask you to re-read previous posts. You're still engaging in whataboutism.
"Tiber did X" is no argument in favour of the Thalmor. As I said at the very beginning, there are no innocents among the powers of Tamriel. With perhaps the singular exception of the Khajiit.
But just because others are bad guys doesn't mean the Thalmor aren't.
It is an argument for not naming them the worst. Tiber Septim is not recognized as a villain, thus we should not call Thalmor villains for the same things. Titus Mede is not recognized as a villain, thus we should not call Thalmor villains for the same things. Varen Aquilarios is not recognized as a villain, thus we should not call Thalmor villains for the same things. Especially when we project this on the whole race. Why don't we project the doings of Tiber Septim, Titus Mede, Marukh on their race(s)? Why they are suddenly not count and other races are suddenly better (from the moral point of view of some players) than altmer? If we judge a race, we should judge it as a whole.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.5 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Really? Have I missed something? Should I read the "maybe the 2nd Era Thalmor are more behaved on the outside, but by the 4th Era (Skyrim) they are full blown elven supremacists. And have become super facist. That doesn't just come out of nowhere." as "maybe some nords are more behaved on the outside, but by the end of 2nd Era (Talos) and 4th Era (Ulfric) they are full blown human supremacists. And have become super facist. That doesn't just come out of nowhere." and "maybe some imperials are more behaved on the outside, but by the 3rd and 4th Era (Septims and Medes) they are full blown human supremacists. And have become super facist. That doesn't just come out of nowhere."?Mate, you seem to have fallen into an argument people haven't made.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.2 -
Cirantille✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I'd be pretty angry too if some guy decides to invade my country even though my country refuses to join, he fails, then uses a destructive machine to slaughter my friends, family and everyone I know leaving me with that type of agony to live for hundreds of years, then he is proclaimed as divine and I'm expected to revere him. Pft. Not happening!6 -
Cirantille✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Really? Have I missed something? Should I read the "maybe the 2nd Era Thalmor are more behaved on the outside, but by the 4th Era (Skyrim) they are full blown elven supremacists. And have become super facist. That doesn't just come out of nowhere." as "maybe some nords are more behaved on the outside, but by the end of 2nd Era (Talos) and 4th Era (Ulfric) they are full blown human supremacists. And have become super facist. That doesn't just come out of nowhere." and "maybe some imperials are more behaved on the outside, but by the 3rd and 4th Era (Septims and Medes) they are full blown human supremacists. And have become super facist. That doesn't just come out of nowhere."?Mate, you seem to have fallen into an argument people haven't made.
When it happens to humans -> This is so sad
When it happens to Elves -> Just get over it
Let us talk about compassion...5 -
Jazraena✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, you have missed something.
Even before we started addressing each other's points I pointed out that just about every culture/nation in TES is racist or otherwise deeply flawed on page 1. Once we did, I reiterated that there were no innocents among Tamriel nations. The Empire in particular is somehow readily seen as a good guy despite them being an aggressive colonial power during multiple periods in Tamriels history. Nobody during our argument claimed otherwise.
But just because other people are awful doesn't mean that there is 'nothing that wrong' with the actions of the Thalmor as you claimed. They're still warmongering supremacists, irrespective of what the reforming Empire did five centuries earlier or other people even longer ago, and they most certainly didn't 'try to prevent a war'. They actively prepared, built for and started one, with the goal of enforcing their will and demands on others.3 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, you have missed something.
Even before we started addressing each other's points I pointed out that just about every culture/nation in TES is racist or otherwise deeply flawed on page 1. Once we did, I reiterated that there were no innocents among Tamriel nations. The Empire in particular is somehow readily seen as a good guy despite them being an aggressive colonial power during multiple periods in Tamriels history. Nobody during our argument claimed otherwise.
But just because other people are awful doesn't mean that there is 'nothing that wrong' with the actions of the Thalmor as you claimed. They're still warmongering supremacists, irrespective of what the reforming Empire did five centuries earlier or other people even longer ago, and they most certainly didn't 'try to prevent a war'. They actively prepared, built for and started one, with the goal of enforcing their will and demands on others.
I said
It is comparison. They have done nothing to deserve being pointed at as if they are an exception and have done unprecedented horrors. Last I checked fighting with evil empire was not something exceptionally wrong. Demanding justice from the evil empire was not a crime. But it looks like only humans have carte blanche in such activities.Nothing that wrong in it.
The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.2 -
Jazraena✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm afraid that the way you worded it is not a comparison. Maybe something was lost in translation. Either way, I not only never stated the Empire was a nation of goodie two shoes across history, but specifically said that none are innocent, so please just drop it by now. This "Humans good Elves bad" argument was not made, so there is no reason to keep coming back to it. I'm evaluating the Thalmor based on their own merits or lack thereof, not that of others.
As for the Empire - the Empire, at that point, wasn't some belligerent hostile entity threatening Summerset. The Thalmor didn't defend themselves. They assassinated the regent of the Empire. They hunted down their own dissidents in a foreign nation, resulting in massive collateral damage that destroyed an entire city district in Sentinel. They performed a coup in Valenwood to overthrow the legitimate Empire-friendly government to install one more accomodating to themselves. And when they sent an ambassador, they didn't demand justice, they demanded tribute - the political equivalent of me coming up to you, pulling a knife and demanding your money. They demanded they change their faith. They demanded they disband a legitimate government agency. When their demands were denied, they declared war and invaded, leading to countless deaths and, as stated by survivors, a great many atrocities when they sacked, looted and burned the Imperial City.
There is no situation that you could possibly bring up that would make the Thalmor the good guy, given those events.4 -
Curryganz✭✭✭it fits the mold of the typical elf: first race, first civilization, therefore a sense of entitlement that is somewhat justified; immutable beliefs, long lived, extraordinary magicians, arrogant, narcissist, proud to the highest extent. They don't evolve, they just are. And they're content with it0 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭
It is possible.I'm afraid that the way you worded it is not a comparison. Maybe something was lost in translation.
Human empire is always a threat to every country around. First empire, second empire, third empire, forth empire. They always seek ways to "restore the former glory".As for the Empire - the Empire, at that point, wasn't some belligerent hostile entity threatening Summerset. The Thalmor didn't defend themselves. They assassinated the regent of the Empire. They hunted down their own dissidents in a foreign nation, resulting in massive collateral damage that destroyed an entire city district in Sentinel. They performed a coup in Valenwood to overthrow the legitimate Empire-friendly government to install one more accomodating to themselves. And when they sent an ambassador, they didn't demand justice, they demanded tribute - the political equivalent of me coming up to you, pulling a knife and demanding your money. They demanded they change their faith. They demanded they disband a legitimate government agency. When their demands were denied, they declared war and invaded, leading to countless deaths and, as stated by survivors, a great many atrocities when they sacked, looted and burned the Imperial City.
There is no situation that you could possibly bring up that would make the Thalmor the good guy, given those events.
Thalmor did defend themselves, as the best defence is attack before being attacked. Should they sit and wait for Mede empire to gather forces big enough to conquer them just like altmer did with Reman and Tiber? No, that would be extremely foolish to make the same mistake for the third time. There is only one way to guarantee that empire will not conquer you, and that way is destruction of the empire.
We don't really know about Ocato. That is just a suggestion of an author who is so anti-Thalmor that he would accuse them in sour milk if possible.
We don't know what exactly happened in Sentinel. After all, Thalmor was accused in the appearance of Alduin, and that was proven to be false. Who was actually responsible for the destruction in Sentinel, Thalmor or their enemies? Was it an unwanted side effect, result of the fight between mages or deliberate use of some weapon? No information. Thus it is wrong to accuse Thalmor of this destruction. Hunting the dissidents, on the other hand, is completely normal for any nation, especially in Tamriel.
A coup in Valenwood or liberation of Valenwood? That depends on a side. Also, it was done by the "Thalmor collaborators". That means that is was done by bosmers, not by the Thalmor itself. Now why are Thalmor collaborators worse than Empire collaborators? At least altmers are natural allies of bosmers.
Thalmor demanded tribute. Summerset paid taxes to the Empire for centuries. Nothing wrong with wanting to take these taxes back.
The whole world had no faith in Talos before the beginning of 3rd Era. It is not like they demanded to stop the worship of some god integral for the culture. "Worship any god you want except your human emperor" is not very much to ask.
Blades is not just an agency. Blades are people who murder anybody without a trial if they find it necessary for the protection of the empire.
Lastly, the sack of Imperial city was done by a daedric worshiper, who is in no way a representative of Thalmor or Altmer.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.1
