SilverBride wrote: »
SilverBride wrote: »
So you are saying that adding x12 rewards for veteran overland content will not be punishing those who can't complete it? Will not create an unfair advantage? Since it is not "not adding something" to the normal mode. In my book it will be unfair.
SilverBride wrote: »All I said is that the drops and quest rewards of the base game and storyline quests should remain the same regardless of any optional difficulties that may be introduced. And not giving more and/or better rewards to higher difficulties of these enemies is not a punishment.
We need to just agree to disagree at this point.
SilverBride wrote: »First of all, I did say quest rewards stay the same, and was talking only about mob drops. And second of all, how is it unfair? Players in better gear can already go and kill things faster. I can get more rewards by killing more stuff already. Adding harder mode with better rewards will not create more unfair advantage than what is already in existence.
It is logical that the more mobs you kill the more mobs you will be looting. I want to clarify that the more difficult mobs won't each individually drop more loot than the regular mobs.
Adding harder modes with better rewards is unfair because we aren't talking about optional end game veteran dungeons, trials and arenas with their established difficulties. We are talking about the base game that is for everyone.
But the same amount of rewards is available to everyone in such a system. You can chose to 1. Kill more mobs or 2. Kill stronger mobs. Both of those actions will take you similar amount of time. If they take the same amount of time, why wouldn't they give the same reward?
PS it is logical that stronger bandit has more capital on him.
Kiralyn2000 wrote: »Of course, this is the first time I've ever seen anyone try to connect difficulty (or 'fairness') with "immersion".
I know many people that don't quest/quest less because the enemies are too easy.
SilverBride wrote: »First of all, I did say quest rewards stay the same, and was talking only about mob drops. And second of all, how is it unfair? Players in better gear can already go and kill things faster. I can get more rewards by killing more stuff already. Adding harder mode with better rewards will not create more unfair advantage than what is already in existence.
It is logical that the more mobs you kill the more mobs you will be looting. I want to clarify that the more difficult mobs won't each individually drop more loot than the regular mobs.
Adding harder modes with better rewards is unfair because we aren't talking about optional end game veteran dungeons, trials and arenas with their established difficulties. We are talking about the base game that is for everyone.
But the same amount of rewards is available to everyone in such a system. You can chose to 1. Kill more mobs or 2. Kill stronger mobs. Both of those actions will take you similar amount of time. If they take the same amount of time, why wouldn't they give the same reward?
PS it is logical that stronger bandit has more capital on him.
So it is about the rewards then. A lot of us have always suspected that to be the case. That said, I have infinite respect for those who decry the idea of better rewards and say they just want a better challenge.
SilverBride wrote: »I know many people that don't quest/quest less because the enemies are too easy.
I quest more because the enemies are easy and it's not a constant struggle. I like feeling strong and being able to complete my quest objectives without being stuck for days on a story boss, like happened before One Tamriel.
I am the hero, after all. I should feel like one. Being beaten down by base level enemies doesn't do that. The frustration of that actually ruins the immersion for me.
Ok. I played for an hour. Regardless of the mode I played, I got the same amount of rewards total throughout my play time. Please explain to me how I got an unfair advantage against those in normal mode reward like I am 5 years old. Because I really, honestly, sincerely, do not understand.
SilverBride wrote: »Ok. I played for an hour. Regardless of the mode I played, I got the same amount of rewards total throughout my play time. Please explain to me how I got an unfair advantage against those in normal mode reward like I am 5 years old. Because I really, honestly, sincerely, do not understand.
We only have one overland. What did you do to play a different mode?
Press a momento in my inventory, which debuffs me and makes me take more damage and deal less damage, while giving small boost to rewards. As a direct consequence I take longer to kill stuff, so my total reward over 1 hour of play stays the same.
SilverBride wrote: »First of all, I did say quest rewards stay the same, and was talking only about mob drops. And second of all, how is it unfair? Players in better gear can already go and kill things faster. I can get more rewards by killing more stuff already. Adding harder mode with better rewards will not create more unfair advantage than what is already in existence.
It is logical that the more mobs you kill the more mobs you will be looting. I want to clarify that the more difficult mobs won't each individually drop more loot than the regular mobs.
Adding harder modes with better rewards is unfair because we aren't talking about optional end game veteran dungeons, trials and arenas with their established difficulties. We are talking about the base game that is for everyone.
But the same amount of rewards is available to everyone in such a system. You can chose to 1. Kill more mobs or 2. Kill stronger mobs. Both of those actions will take you similar amount of time. If they take the same amount of time, why wouldn't they give the same reward?
PS it is logical that stronger bandit has more capital on him.
So it is about the rewards then. A lot of us have always suspected that to be the case. That said, I have infinite respect for those who decry the idea of better rewards and say they just want a better challenge.
Ok. I played for an hour. Regardless of the mode I played, I got the same amount of rewards total throughout my play time. Please explain to me how I got an unfair advantage against those in normal mode reward, more rewards, like I am 5 years old. Because I really, honestly, sincerely, do not understand.
SilverBride wrote: »Ok. I played for an hour. Regardless of the mode I played, I got the same amount of rewards total throughout my play time. Please explain to me how I got an unfair advantage against those in normal mode reward like I am 5 years old. Because I really, honestly, sincerely, do not understand.
We only have one overland. What did you do to play a different mode?
Press a momento in my inventory, which debuffs me and makes me take more damage and deal less damage, while giving small boost to rewards. As a direct consequence I take longer to kill stuff, so my total reward over 1 hour of play stays the same.
SilverBride wrote: »Press a momento in my inventory, which debuffs me and makes me take more damage and deal less damage, while giving small boost to rewards. As a direct consequence I take longer to kill stuff, so my total reward over 1 hour of play stays the same.
Oh what memento is that? I'd like to play around with that too!
Take dungeons for example, you get better (purple) and more (higher quality chests) rewards for vet, and yet everyone still farm normal for gear because it is more time efficient. Since it is proven (by dungeons) that it will not be unfair towards those that run normal, why shouldn't vet rewards be better (quantity-wise).
SilverBride wrote: »Press a momento in my inventory, which debuffs me and makes me take more damage and deal less damage, while giving small boost to rewards. As a direct consequence I take longer to kill stuff, so my total reward over 1 hour of play stays the same.
Oh what memento is that? I'd like to play around with that too!
Me too! Hence the suggestion I have posted here and tried to defend while being accused of "just wanting better rewards" for a whole page of comments.
SilverBride wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »Press a momento in my inventory, which debuffs me and makes me take more damage and deal less damage, while giving small boost to rewards. As a direct consequence I take longer to kill stuff, so my total reward over 1 hour of play stays the same.
Oh what memento is that? I'd like to play around with that too!
Me too! Hence the suggestion I have posted here and tried to defend while being accused of "just wanting better rewards" for a whole page of comments.
Ohhhh so it was a hypothetical memento that you were suggesting? I was looking through my list to see what one you were talking about so I could test it!
SilverBride wrote: »First of all, I did say quest rewards stay the same, and was talking only about mob drops. And second of all, how is it unfair? Players in better gear can already go and kill things faster. I can get more rewards by killing more stuff already. Adding harder mode with better rewards will not create more unfair advantage than what is already in existence.
It is logical that the more mobs you kill the more mobs you will be looting. I want to clarify that the more difficult mobs won't each individually drop more loot than the regular mobs.
Adding harder modes with better rewards is unfair because we aren't talking about optional end game veteran dungeons, trials and arenas with their established difficulties. We are talking about the base game that is for everyone.
But the same amount of rewards is available to everyone in such a system. You can chose to 1. Kill more mobs or 2. Kill stronger mobs. Both of those actions will take you similar amount of time. If they take the same amount of time, why wouldn't they give the same reward?
PS it is logical that stronger bandit has more capital on him.
So it is about the rewards then. A lot of us have always suspected that to be the case. That said, I have infinite respect for those who decry the idea of better rewards and say they just want a better challenge.
Ok. I played for an hour. Regardless of the mode I played, I got the same amount of rewards total throughout my play time. Please explain to me how I got an unfair advantage against those in normal mode reward, more rewards, like I am 5 years old. Because I really, honestly, sincerely, do not understand.
I never mentioned anything about an unfair advantage.
the1andonlyskwex wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »Ok. I played for an hour. Regardless of the mode I played, I got the same amount of rewards total throughout my play time. Please explain to me how I got an unfair advantage against those in normal mode reward like I am 5 years old. Because I really, honestly, sincerely, do not understand.
We only have one overland. What did you do to play a different mode?
Press a momento in my inventory, which debuffs me and makes me take more damage and deal less damage, while giving small boost to rewards. As a direct consequence I take longer to kill stuff, so my total reward over 1 hour of play stays the same.
That sounds like something that makes you weaker, not something that makes mobs stronger. How is it immersive for that to lead to better rewards?
SilverBride wrote: »First of all, I did say quest rewards stay the same, and was talking only about mob drops. And second of all, how is it unfair? Players in better gear can already go and kill things faster. I can get more rewards by killing more stuff already. Adding harder mode with better rewards will not create more unfair advantage than what is already in existence.
It is logical that the more mobs you kill the more mobs you will be looting. I want to clarify that the more difficult mobs won't each individually drop more loot than the regular mobs.
Adding harder modes with better rewards is unfair because we aren't talking about optional end game veteran dungeons, trials and arenas with their established difficulties. We are talking about the base game that is for everyone.
But the same amount of rewards is available to everyone in such a system. You can chose to 1. Kill more mobs or 2. Kill stronger mobs. Both of those actions will take you similar amount of time. If they take the same amount of time, why wouldn't they give the same reward?
PS it is logical that stronger bandit has more capital on him.
So it is about the rewards then. A lot of us have always suspected that to be the case. That said, I have infinite respect for those who decry the idea of better rewards and say they just want a better challenge.
Ok. I played for an hour. Regardless of the mode I played, I got the same amount of rewards total throughout my play time. Please explain to me how I got an unfair advantage against those in normal mode reward, more rewards, like I am 5 years old. Because I really, honestly, sincerely, do not understand.
I never mentioned anything about an unfair advantage.
You mentioned that I just wanted better rewards. Please explain how I got better rewards in the 1 hour I played.
SilverBride wrote: »First of all, I did say quest rewards stay the same, and was talking only about mob drops. And second of all, how is it unfair? Players in better gear can already go and kill things faster. I can get more rewards by killing more stuff already. Adding harder mode with better rewards will not create more unfair advantage than what is already in existence.
It is logical that the more mobs you kill the more mobs you will be looting. I want to clarify that the more difficult mobs won't each individually drop more loot than the regular mobs.
Adding harder modes with better rewards is unfair because we aren't talking about optional end game veteran dungeons, trials and arenas with their established difficulties. We are talking about the base game that is for everyone.
But the same amount of rewards is available to everyone in such a system. You can chose to 1. Kill more mobs or 2. Kill stronger mobs. Both of those actions will take you similar amount of time. If they take the same amount of time, why wouldn't they give the same reward?
PS it is logical that stronger bandit has more capital on him.
So it is about the rewards then. A lot of us have always suspected that to be the case. That said, I have infinite respect for those who decry the idea of better rewards and say they just want a better challenge.
Ok. I played for an hour. Regardless of the mode I played, I got the same amount of rewards total throughout my play time. Please explain to me how I got an unfair advantage against those in normal mode reward, more rewards, like I am 5 years old. Because I really, honestly, sincerely, do not understand.
I never mentioned anything about an unfair advantage.
You mentioned that I just wanted better rewards. Please explain how I got better rewards in the 1 hour I played.
No, I didn't say that either. I said it was about rewards, which is indeed all you've been talking about for many comments, Earlier you said "without the extra loot I would be wasting more time by fighting harder enemies, for the same reward."
SilverBride wrote: »First of all, I did say quest rewards stay the same, and was talking only about mob drops. And second of all, how is it unfair? Players in better gear can already go and kill things faster. I can get more rewards by killing more stuff already. Adding harder mode with better rewards will not create more unfair advantage than what is already in existence.
It is logical that the more mobs you kill the more mobs you will be looting. I want to clarify that the more difficult mobs won't each individually drop more loot than the regular mobs.
Adding harder modes with better rewards is unfair because we aren't talking about optional end game veteran dungeons, trials and arenas with their established difficulties. We are talking about the base game that is for everyone.
But the same amount of rewards is available to everyone in such a system. You can chose to 1. Kill more mobs or 2. Kill stronger mobs. Both of those actions will take you similar amount of time. If they take the same amount of time, why wouldn't they give the same reward?
PS it is logical that stronger bandit has more capital on him.
So it is about the rewards then. A lot of us have always suspected that to be the case. That said, I have infinite respect for those who decry the idea of better rewards and say they just want a better challenge.
Ok. I played for an hour. Regardless of the mode I played, I got the same amount of rewards total throughout my play time. Please explain to me how I got an unfair advantage against those in normal mode reward, more rewards, like I am 5 years old. Because I really, honestly, sincerely, do not understand.
I never mentioned anything about an unfair advantage.
You mentioned that I just wanted better rewards. Please explain how I got better rewards in the 1 hour I played.
No, I didn't say that either. I said it was about rewards, which is indeed all you've been talking about for many comments, Earlier you said "without the extra loot I would be wasting more time by fighting harder enemies, for the same reward."
Ken_Koerperich wrote: »Nope!
I originally played back in the day of REQUIRED ESO+ & Vet Level 14 was the max.
You had to take each zone, one at a time, "grind" it out, and most of the time, you needed to group to beat stuff, or just zip by it w/ max run speed so you didn't die. You ALSO HAD TO change gear every 5 levels if you EVEN wanted to SOLO, or you'd be taking so MUCH damage, and OUTPUTTING so little damage that you'd be stuck on the same quest for days.
It also took you, 8 hours a day, with Xp scrolls on, running in "groups" quickly, over 6 months to reach Vet Level 14, and that's IF you had your crafting up/on par w/ your leveling speed, so you could keep making your gear.
Dungeons completed SOLO, was not even attempted by anyone until you'd been in game and ACTUALLY farmed a monster set, which back then, took upwards of another 3 months.
So it took you a YEAR just to attempt that....
Then, IC came around. Only way to do it was in ZERG mode unless you actually were a glutton for punishment/deaths over and over, as it was the place, and only way to get SET jewelry. So, unless RNG was with you, there was a couple more months, and tons of farming....
But anyway, NOW, you got a game that caters to everyone, and makes ZOS tons of $$$.
And this all above is why I left. I played to early to "party/group" and couldn't solo most of the content. And "running" by it all got BORING!!
It's NOT their fault that you, whom has burned down all content, gotten to META(which is for Trials/Dungeons/Solo Trials), want to "return" to Overland/Story and can face tank/one shot everything. Dude/Dudette, you ARE GEARED for end game content, NOT the content that new players/casual players still die in....
You are OP. Please quit trying to make it about you.
Go do the CONTENT you are built for. NOT the content that is supposed to be for players leveling up, with "dropped" gear/at level gear.
WE STILL DIE, constantly...
Hell, just today, I got smoked twice by mobs, and even with the "help" of a VET, on a WB that can one shot.
Game is good as is.
Stick with the content for your "meta" build, or move on. You requesting to change the fundamental game to fit your needs, and the "small" pool like you, OVER the masses of everyone else is futile.
Maybe you should just move on and play something differents.
I returned because I'm NOT forced to use ESO+, I can solo anything outside of dungeons, which I hate, and I can survive w/o the PvP skills, unlike, back in the day, you HAD to have them, or you wouldn't be allowed into groups....
Game is in a Great place, please quit trying to change that fact with your petty wants.
Majority rules....Sorry to say.
JMO, so don't get bent out of shape over it...
@Iccotak
In the bit you quoted from my post about the bigger snd badder gear you totally missed the point I was making.
I know people are not asking to make it the equivalent of endgame but they want it to be a challenge.
And always with bigger challenge better rewards are wanted.
Better rewards means stronger more powerful characters.
Stronger more powerful characters mean the new harder overland is no longer the challenge that people wanted.
It makes it no different to what we already have. And as a result after six months or so the whole merry go round starts again and people start complaining overland isn't tough enough.
The other knock on effect is that as overland gets harder end game gets easier. The new bigger & badder gear makes end game a whole lot easier, which then means that either trials and dungeons need buffing or we accept that Godslayer isn't so hard to do (I play console)
But thats a part of the harder overland plus better rewards that never gets mentioned
adriant1978 wrote: »IMO, overworld difficulty is fine. I do not want every passing wolf and skeever to be in danger of killing me at any level.
What I think could use a buff are quest enemies, the bosses in particular. It's ridiculous when the Big Bad who has been threatening you for an entire story melts in seconds, often before they are even done taunting you with their evil gloating.
I'd like more instanced (group instanced, so you can bring friends if you want) quest areas with optional veteran difficulty level. This would also solve the problem of random people intruding on your story and sometimes killing bosses out from under you, which has long gotten on my nerves in this game.
SilverBride wrote: »adriant1978 wrote: »IMO, overworld difficulty is fine. I do not want every passing wolf and skeever to be in danger of killing me at any level.
What I think could use a buff are quest enemies, the bosses in particular. It's ridiculous when the Big Bad who has been threatening you for an entire story melts in seconds, often before they are even done taunting you with their evil gloating.
I'd like more instanced (group instanced, so you can bring friends if you want) quest areas with optional veteran difficulty level. This would also solve the problem of random people intruding on your story and sometimes killing bosses out from under you, which has long gotten on my nerves in this game.
I think a way for a player to choose the difficulty of the quest bosses is very reasonable, because it would make the fight enjoyable for some but not be forced on anyone.
I don't agree with instanced areas in overland because it will divide the playerbase and leave less players in each instance to form groups with.
Ken_Koerperich wrote: »Go do the CONTENT you are built for. NOT the content that is supposed to be for players leveling up, with "dropped" gear/at level gear.
SilverBride wrote: »Press a momento in my inventory, which debuffs me and makes me take more damage and deal less damage, while giving small boost to rewards. As a direct consequence I take longer to kill stuff, so my total reward over 1 hour of play stays the same.
Oh what memento is that? I'd like to play around with that too!
Me too! Hence the suggestion I have posted here and tried to defend while being accused of "just wanting better rewards" for a whole page of comments. As the dungeon example provedit does not exclusively mean unfair advantage towards those who don't use the theoretically implemented momento.
Take dungeons for example, you get better (purple) and more (higher quality chests) rewards for vet, and yet everyone still farm normal for gear because it is more time efficient. Since it is proven (by dungeons) that it will not be unfair towards those that run normal, why shouldn't vet rewards be better (quantity-wise).
SilverBride wrote: »Press a momento in my inventory, which debuffs me and makes me take more damage and deal less damage, while giving small boost to rewards. As a direct consequence I take longer to kill stuff, so my total reward over 1 hour of play stays the same.
Oh what memento is that? I'd like to play around with that too!
Me too! Hence the suggestion I have posted here and tried to defend while being accused of "just wanting better rewards" for a whole page of comments. As the dungeon example provedit does not exclusively mean unfair advantage towards those who don't use the theoretically implemented momento.
Take dungeons for example, you get better (purple) and more (higher quality chests) rewards for vet, and yet everyone still farm normal for gear because it is more time efficient. Since it is proven (by dungeons) that it will not be unfair towards those that run normal, why shouldn't vet rewards be better (quantity-wise).
Here's the problem with this solution - it's no different from saying to just wear white gear and use only a couple skills.
Many of us have tried this solution - it doesn't change the fact that the enemies themselves are incapable, limited, slow, and boring.
Nerfing ourselves doesn't solve the problem because the enemies don't have any interesting mechanics Nor are they fast enough in the first place.
The combat is designed for complete beginners, who are learning it all for the first time. That is very evident with Story Bosses.
The combat will only get more exciting and fun if in a separate instance where it is no longer for complete beginners. Where enemies and bosses use more abilities, move faster, and do more damage.
SilverBride wrote: »Press a momento in my inventory, which debuffs me and makes me take more damage and deal less damage, while giving small boost to rewards. As a direct consequence I take longer to kill stuff, so my total reward over 1 hour of play stays the same.
Oh what memento is that? I'd like to play around with that too!
Me too! Hence the suggestion I have posted here and tried to defend while being accused of "just wanting better rewards" for a whole page of comments. As the dungeon example provedit does not exclusively mean unfair advantage towards those who don't use the theoretically implemented momento.
Take dungeons for example, you get better (purple) and more (higher quality chests) rewards for vet, and yet everyone still farm normal for gear because it is more time efficient. Since it is proven (by dungeons) that it will not be unfair towards those that run normal, why shouldn't vet rewards be better (quantity-wise).
Here's the problem with this solution - it's no different from saying to just wear white gear and use only a couple skills.
Many of us have tried this solution - it doesn't change the fact that the enemies themselves are incapable, limited, slow, and boring.
Nerfing ourselves doesn't solve the problem because the enemies don't have any interesting mechanics Nor are they fast enough in the first place.
The combat is designed for complete beginners, who are learning it all for the first time. That is very evident with Story Bosses.
The combat will only get more exciting and fun if in a separate instance where it is no longer for complete beginners. Where enemies and bosses use more abilities, move faster, and do more damage.
I agree that my solution is not perfect and may not appeal to all, but it is much much less work (no need to create every boss twice/trice) and it enables playing together with friends of different levels. Your preferred solution (which in all honesty very appealing) is but a pipe dream, for three reasons, one, zos stated in the past that they do not want to split player base and want everyone to play everywhere (one Tamriel), two, lots of work, three, poor server performance won't handle more complicated faster enemies.