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Should asocial people be allowed in PUG dungeons?

  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    ixthUA wrote: »
    All i got here were explanations why toxic asocial people should use dungeon finder as a convenient place to farm CP. Also i was told that if i want friendly social people i should not use dungeon finder, which is true.
    So i switched to veteran dungeons (even though i am into hard content). Changes between normal vs veteran dungeon finder:
    1. Average player CP dropped from 900-1500 to 300-600.
    2. Fake tanks don't work.
    3. Soloing dungeon does not work.
    4. Speedrun does not work.
    The only disadvantage i found is that queue instead of instant became 2-3 min, which is acceptable.

    I'm glad you found something that works for you.
  • fiender66
    fiender66
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    ixthUA wrote: »
    All i got here were explanations why toxic asocial people should use dungeon finder as a convenient place to farm CP. Also i was told that if i want friendly social people i should not use dungeon finder, which is true.
    So i switched to veteran dungeons (even though i am into hard content). Changes between normal vs veteran dungeon finder:
    1. Average player CP dropped from 900-1500 to 300-600.
    2. Fake tanks don't work.
    3. Soloing dungeon does not work.
    4. Speedrun does not work.
    The only disadvantage i found is that queue instead of instant became 2-3 min, which is acceptable.

    I'm glad you found something that works for you.

    I'm glad too, but I'm curious about a detail: how often did you have instant queue for normal dungeons? Which role do you have? I surmise it's not tank (your point 2.), so is it healer? In years, as a dd, I never took an instant for pug normal dungeons (PC EU and NA).
  • MrMazurski
    MrMazurski
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    ixthUA wrote: »
    All Changes between normal vs veteran dungeon finder:
    1. Average player CP dropped from 900-1500 to 300-600.

    Its so True. I dont know what this guys with 200-300CP doing at DLC VET? I know everyone what nice sets... but pls... Random Vet are just unplayable with this poor dps, heal or tank + dont knows mechanics.

    I lastly doing Icereach. Last boss. You need interrupt witchers casting one shot skills. Dont ask what ppl doing at this time, even if they are watching you and you need repeat this few times.


    About topic. Im too asocial. I just want rewards (mostly transmute stones), i bored with doing 200,000 x times this same dg. You can't just kick it out by cutting off players who don't want to socialize. Im doing my job if im tank, DD (dont like playing healer). Skiping monster have mostly on goal. Safe your time. But i dont wanna spend more time for random dg.

    If you want truly social wombo combo social experience. Join to pve guild, find friends and others things. Just dont count from pug, a social experience - sounds so weird.
    - Where "Update on Cyrodiil Performance & Upcoming AOE Tests"? I wish ZOS would stop kicking players' balls, especially those on Cyro
    - - PC-EU / Ravenwatch
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    fiender66 wrote: »
    ixthUA wrote: »
    All i got here were explanations why toxic asocial people should use dungeon finder as a convenient place to farm CP. Also i was told that if i want friendly social people i should not use dungeon finder, which is true.
    So i switched to veteran dungeons (even though i am into hard content). Changes between normal vs veteran dungeon finder:
    1. Average player CP dropped from 900-1500 to 300-600.
    2. Fake tanks don't work.
    3. Soloing dungeon does not work.
    4. Speedrun does not work.
    The only disadvantage i found is that queue instead of instant became 2-3 min, which is acceptable.

    I'm glad you found something that works for you.

    I'm glad too, but I'm curious about a detail: how often did you have instant queue for normal dungeons? Which role do you have? I surmise it's not tank (your point 2.), so is it healer? In years, as a dd, I never took an instant for pug normal dungeons (PC EU and NA).

    Did you mean to ask the OP about their point #2? If so, I think they were referring to Veteran dungeons.

    As for me, I usually play tank in random normals (indeed, I'm so spoiled as a tank that if I wait in queue for more than a minute, I begin to suspect that Groupfinder is broken again) or on a healer if I want to play something other than a tank.
  • Noldornir
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    ixthUA wrote: »
    Dungeon is a place where a group of players cooperates to defeat enemies, getting positive social interaction.

    Yes and No, a dungeon is a place to test skills and defeat enemies. Social guilds is where you should look for positive social interaction.
    ixthUA wrote: »
    What often happens is that DPS queues as a tank, then rushes ahead (skipping mobs and optional bosses) so they can get rewarded sooner, for ruining social experience for other 3 players.

    This can be boring, also the dungeon will 80% bug and you can't open doors hence you waste more time than what you saved by skipping adds. I blame the random drop system tho.
    You name FFXIV -> there you get tokens to change for the gear you need, you don't need to farm a dungeon 100 times+ to get a weapon so nobody is running a dungeon ovver and over doing this.
    ixthUA wrote: »
    Shouldn't someting be done about it? For example in FFXIV player's power is reduced to match a dungeon, so people cannot solo them. Also after dungeon ends everyone can give a recommendation point to one of the players, and having high recommendation score unlocks cool mounts. This restricts asocial players from ruining experience for other players.

    Again I believe the drop system is the core of the issue. In ESO player power is not reduced but enemies is (can scale up to 160CP) which is pretty much the same; problem is math is way worse and the power "adjustment" result in being less effective.

    Recomandation pts does not work in FF (tank/heal get those 90% times) and i believe here they would work even less; in ESO there is A HUGE difference (in terms of damage) between a skilled DD and a poor one even if they wear the same sets, in FF the difference is not so big and doing damage is easier to learn as you only need to concatenate your skills in the correct order but the GCD will not allow a "faster" player to deal twice as much damage as the "slower" one.
    What will happen, in the end, is that poor players will be crushed even more by poor recomandation scores and the gap will get bigger and more evident.

    What I believe ESO need is a place where "average players" should train:

    We have normal dungeons= too easy, this kind of difficulty is suited only to very new players.
    Vet dungeons= either too easy (older ones) or too hard (DLC ones) depending on dungeon for the "average joe".
    HM dungeons= DLC HM are good for strong players only (but this is ok)

    The problem is there is no place where the average player (not a newbie but not strong yet) can actually improve; I'd raise the difficulty of all non-DLC vets to begin with.
  • ixthUA
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    fiender66 wrote: »
    I'm glad too, but I'm curious about a detail: how often did you have instant queue for normal dungeons? Which role do you have? I surmise it's not tank (your point 2.), so is it healer? In years, as a dd, I never took an instant for pug normal dungeons (PC EU and NA).
    I don't queue to normal dungeons any more. Veteran random queue is between instant to 2-3 minutes, as a healer. The worst DPS i had so far was 18k for entire team in banished cells ii veteran.

    PC EU: Senilia Bright - fake DD in training gear. I live in Kiev, Ukraine.
  • Arbit
    Arbit
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    Personally I wish that there was a party board of sorts where people could advertise for groups so we didn’t get the toxic *** that make their way into group finder. A party board would solve this issue I think where you could advertise your group for all who are interested in doing that activity can see. I see this in guild wars 2 and think it is one of the best things they added to the game.
    Argonian Master Race
  • Krayl
    Krayl
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    OP:

    Nobody wants to have a social experience running Arx for their 400th time.

    As was stated, if you want a social experience, find 3 other people looking for the same experience, join a guild, etc etc etc.

    I think it's funny that people complain about this. I've been playing the game for a while, CP 1800, and I go through a ton of transmutes. You can bet I'm blazing through normal randoms.

    "It's an mmo! I shouldn't have to be social to expect a social interaction!" :D

    Why do the social gamers always want everyone else to give up their play time to accommodate them, but aren't willing to take the time to find friends or a guild to get the experience THEY want? We are blazing through these old dungeons because we can and doing otherwise would be total nonsense. YOU are the one looking for a SPECIFIC experience - it's not every random person's job to provide you with said experience.

    If I notice someone is doing a quest or if someone mentions they are doing it, most people myself included will ensure you'll have time to do so.
  • ixthUA
    ixthUA
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    Not long ago i could not get into a vet dungeon in the morning hours, so i queued into a normal dungeon.
    Fake tank was a DD with 18k life and 1500 cp, who rushed ahead and soloed the dungeon.
    Me, i just followed the "tank", since no other actions were required.
    Two sub-50 DDs with 30k+ life who got lost behind (probably doing story) and died several times, falling from heights.
    So while i stll got 350k exp and 10 transmutes, the whole run was disgusting - i got no social experience, i didn't get to play my role, i did nothing but run.
    So in my understanding people who do normal dungeons are either newbies or don't care about dungeons and roleplay in general and only want rewards.
    PC EU: Senilia Bright - fake DD in training gear. I live in Kiev, Ukraine.
  • Arbit
    Arbit
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    Krayl wrote: »
    OP:

    Nobody wants to have a social experience running Arx for their 400th time.

    As was stated, if you want a social experience, find 3 other people looking for the same experience, join a guild, etc etc etc.

    I think it's funny that people complain about this. I've been playing the game for a while, CP 1800, and I go through a ton of transmutes. You can bet I'm blazing through normal randoms.

    "It's an mmo! I shouldn't have to be social to expect a social interaction!" :D

    Why do the social gamers always want everyone else to give up their play time to accommodate them, but aren't willing to take the time to find friends or a guild to get the experience THEY want? We are blazing through these old dungeons because we can and doing otherwise would be total nonsense. YOU are the one looking for a SPECIFIC experience - it's not every random person's job to provide you with said experience.

    If I notice someone is doing a quest or if someone mentions they are doing it, most people myself included will ensure you'll have time to do so.

    And we are not your loot sacks. Why don’t YOU find people who want to be and not ruin everyone else’s time for gear. I’m sure your companion wouldn’t mind running behind you, but real people probably do not. Be more mindful of the people you run with, or take it as an opportunity to get your companion some gear and run with them instead.
    Edited by Arbit on July 23, 2021 6:48PM
    Argonian Master Race
  • Merlin13KAGL
    Merlin13KAGL
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    As has been mentioned, if you expect anything beyond a clear, the dungeon finder is not for you.

    Until they introduce tiers or provide more incentive than the daily reward for running dungeons cleared 100's of times, this will continue to be a problem.

    @Arbit , what you don't realize is by implementing that the number of people in queue will be reduced, because aside from XP, Transmutes, and gear, there is literally no reason to repeat dungeons that were mastered years before.

    It's far easier to combine four people for @Krayl 's purposes than for the others. Again, he specifically mentioned that if someone was doing the quest, etc, he'd accommodate.

    90%+ of the people queuing up are doing so for the daily rewards. Another portion are doing so to fill the sticker book and be done with the content forever. Having 10 minutes' worth of dungeon take 30 minutes is fine every now and then, but most people are going to want to get from point A to point B as efficiently and quickly as possible.

    Until incentive provides otherwise, this won't change.
    Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...

    Earn it.

    IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.
    I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
    Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS
  • svendf
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    ZOS can make these speedunning stop just by changing some mechs. No boss spawn before room/zone clear. No doors opens before "all" groupmembers are in same zone, infront of a door. A tiimer will appear if you are not in the zone and remind you to follow the group or kick (trolls in mind here).

    Group tool in ESO shoould be a tool to use for "all" ESO player´s under the same set of rules, where all attempts in violating TOS, would be punished.

    I don´t care if people have 1 or 10 jobs. Most of us have responsibilities in rl. I don´t care if people have 18 or 1800 chars if you are joining a group, play as you are part of that group or solo the darn thing - if you can lol.

    It´s like in RL. Some have to be told how to behave and face, what´s coming. It´s lag of consequences, which is even escalating to overland.

    ZOS need to monitor their game more.

    Im a cp 1800 and can take my dd into a delve, with Bastian to the last boss and look right into thee face of an lvl10 and almost see how he/she is loosing air and just want scream out - please leave get out, oh nooo. Boss spawn and a little tiny la and the lvl10 and Bastian can and will do the rest. Boss down lvl10 say "ty" and jumps around abit. If you don´t have the time - find it. Same in dungeons just respect your group. I have run these darn dungeons so many times I don´t bother counting.

    No it´s not MMO specific. No reason bringing that up. Get a grip guy´s you are not alone in this game.
    Edited by svendf on July 28, 2021 1:23PM
  • Mesite
    Mesite
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    In Lord of the Rings I think that Strider (Aragorn) probably would have viewed the other party members as inconvenient and wandered off if he had to do a dungeon. And the hobbits wandered off and woke a balrog. In ESO I think some of the PUGs are just role-playing when they annoy us.
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    Mesite wrote: »
    In Lord of the Rings I think that Strider (Aragorn) probably would have viewed the other party members as inconvenient and wandered off if he had to do a dungeon. And the hobbits wandered off and woke a balrog. In ESO I think some of the PUGs are just role-playing when they annoy us.

    "Gandalf, where were you?" Aragorn asks. "We had to fight the Ringwraith bosses all by ourselves. And I totally carried those Hobbits through the fight. They've got terrible DPS."

    "At least we remembered to keep our food buff up," Samwise retorts.

    "It's a very good thing that Frodo put all his attribute points into Health," Elrond agrees.

    "So where were you?" Frodo asks. "If you needed to do the quest, we would've waited."

    "Oh, you know, there were some lorebooks in Isengard I needed to read..."



    Though if anyone wants a much funnier take on Lord of the Rings as a D&D party, I highly recommend the comic "DM of the Rings" https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612
  • Benzux
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    I'm not sure I see the correlation between not wanting to be social and the things you said in your initial post. People fake tanking doesn't have anything to do with how much social interaction one wants to have, it's a result of the overabundance of DDs, resulting in queues being quicker on Tanks/Healers, and with most non-DLC normal dungeons being a walk in the park with proper DPS, so tanks/healers aren't exactly necessary.

    If you want an example, I have Social Anxiety Disorder and I despise fake tanking and/or rushing through dungeons like the world is about to end in ten minutes. I understand the reasons people do these things, but I don't like it - sometimes I just have to tolerate it, though.

    There's been plenty of good examples in this thread of what you can do if you desire social interaction in ESO, so I'm not going to repeat them. But "banning" people from using the random group finder for not wanting to interact with people any more than they have to is not one way of doing it.
    BenzuxGamer - Xbox One since day 1 - CP 1500+
    Guildmaster of the Sacrificial Warriors, one of the oldest and most member-orientated Guilds on the Xbox One EU Megaserver
    "Casual" player from Finland who enjoys questing and dumb builds even after well over 1000 CP levels and 4000+ hours. A fan of Argonians, Goats and Elk. Also a massive Otaku (MAL Profile).
    "Following the meta makes you a sheep. That's why I'm a goat: I go in the opposite direction and make use of the things the sheep cannot." - Me, 2019
    Characters:
    Ben-Zu - Argonian MagDK DPS - EP (Main)
    Benzuth Telvanni - Dunmer MagSorc DPS - EP
    Haknir Head-Crusher - Nord DK Tank/Stam DPS - EP
    Delves-Deepest-Depths - Argonian StamBlade DPS - EP
    Raises-The-Dead - Argonian Mag Necromancer DPS7Healer - EP (Previously a Sorc healer, RIP)
    Bthuzdir Ynzavretz - Dwemer StamSorc DPS - AD (Dunmer in-game)
    Fafnir the Dragon - Nord Stam DK DPS - EP
    Bloodmage Thalnos - Breton MagBlade DPS - DC
    Finnis Wolfheart - Bosmer Stam Warden DPS - EP
    Gwyneth - Nord Warden Tank - EP
    Kud-Wazei Xeroicas - Argonian Mag Templar DPS/Tank - EP
    Barkskin Ben-Zhu - Argonian Warden Healer - EP (Alternate version of main)
    Xal-Vakka Xeroicas - Argonian DK Healer - EP
    Jaree-Shei the Wamasu - Argonian Sorcerer Tank - EP
    Gwennen Ereloth - Snow Elf Mag Warden DPS - EP (Dunmer in-game)
    Friedrich der Grosse - Imperial Nightblade Tank - EP
    Warfarin - Altmer Nightblade Healer - EP
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