Should asocial people be allowed in PUG dungeons?

ixthUA

Dungeon is a place where a group of players cooperates to defeat enemies, getting positive social interaction. What often happens is that DPS queues as a tank, then rushes ahead (skipping mobs and optional bosses) so they can get rewarded sooner, for ruining social experience for other 3 players.
Shouldn't someting be done about it? For example in FFXIV player's power is reduced to match a dungeon, so people cannot solo them. Also after dungeon ends everyone can give a recommendation point to one of the players, and having high recommendation score unlocks cool mounts. This restricts asocial players from ruining experience for other players.

Belegnole

Yes, everyone should be allowed to PUG.

ixthUA

But why force asocial players into social interactions? They only want rewards and don't care about group members, and are a dps anyway (very easily replaced).

redspecter23

A pug is for everyone. You're not going to agree with the playstyles of those in a pug all the time. They won't agree with you as well. If you want like minded players, don't pug. Run with a premade group.

ixthUA

So if i understood correctly, if i want a social interaction in a MMO dungeon i need to make a custom group of like-minded players. If i queue for random group i have a good chance to get toxic asocial players (who only want rewards and will ruin the run for everyone), and it is as it must be, because everyone's play styles must be respected?
Well, now i understand why ESO is nearly free (around $8 during sale) and FFXIV is $13 per month.

redspecter23

ixthUA wrote: »

So if i understood correctly, if i want a social interaction in a MMO dungeon i need to make a custom group of like-minded players. If i queue for random group i have a good chance to get toxic asocial players (who only want rewards and will ruin the run for everyone), and it is as it must be, because everyone's play styles must be respected?
Well, now i understand why ESO is nearly free (around $8 during sale) and FFXIV is $13 per month.

How could you possibly expect everyone in a random group to have the same interests as you? Serious question. There are an infinite number of playstyles. Who decides the "right" way to play when 4 random people are put in a group together?

Sephyr

ixthUA wrote: »

Shouldn't someting be done about it? For example in FFXIV player's power is reduced to match a dungeon, so people cannot solo them. Also after dungeon ends everyone can give a recommendation point to one of the players, and having high recommendation score unlocks cool mounts. This restricts asocial players from ruining experience for other players.

This is only true to an extent as you can just choose an Undersized party within the party settings along with a few other options (level sync still has to be enabled) and go in. Chest items still drop, but not from monsters, but people can in fact solo them (been doing it myself during some of the tomestone events because some dungeons had upwards of a 40 minute wait).

ixthUA

redspecter23 wrote: »

How could you possibly expect everyone in a random group to have the same interests as you? Serious question. There are an infinite number of playstyles. Who decides the "right" way to play when 4 random people are put in a group together?

If dungeon requires cooperation to complete people have no other way to finish it but to cooperate.

Sephyr wrote: »

This is only true to an extent as you can just choose an Undersized party within the party settings along with a few other options (level sync still has to be enabled) and go in. Chest items still drop, but not from monsters, but people can in fact solo them (been doing it myself during some of the tomestone events because some dungeons had upwards of a 40 minute wait).

Very low level dungeons may be soloed by high level players, but most of them have mechanics and requirements for a group of players.

Zorgon_The_Revenged

Sounds like the op has never rocked the castrum at the end of ffxiv`s arr msq.

Sephyr

ixthUA wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

This is only true to an extent as you can just choose an Undersized party within the party settings along with a few other options (level sync still has to be enabled) and go in. Chest items still drop, but not from monsters, but people can in fact solo them (been doing it myself during some of the tomestone events because some dungeons had upwards of a 40 minute wait).

Very low level dungeons may be soloed by high level players, but most of them have mechanics and requirements for a group of players.

Also untrue. Shadowbringer dungeons are not only not low level, they also have the Trust mechanic.

Zorgon_The_Revenged wrote: »

Sounds like the op has never rocked the castrum at the end of ffxiv`s arr msq.

Agreed.

VaranisArano

If you use the Groupfinder, you are getting a random group of people with random ability levels who probably agree that they want to finish the dungeon but may not agree on speed, roles, tactics, loot sharing, or anything else beyond that.

As a general rule of thumb, if you want anything more than a random group of three other people, you ought to make your own premade group.

I recommend recruiting from zone chat or guilds. Plus that has the bonus of filtering out anyone you deem asocial.

El_Borracho

Just because someone runs through a dungeon does not mean they are antisocial. If I queue for a random daily normal and if anything that is not a DLC pops up, I'm not going to wait around very long. If its FG1, Darkshades 1, EH1, or something like that, I expect a speed run and skipping bosses. Those are dungeons that many players have done dozens of times and are very easy. If someone says "on quest," then I'll slow down. I don't think I'm in the minority here, as this is how most players I've pugged with run.

Not speaking up while expecting others to run at your pace is also antisocial

anitajoneb17_ESO

ixthUA wrote: »

Also after dungeon ends everyone can give a recommendation point to one of the players, and having high recommendation score unlocks cool mounts. This restricts asocial players from ruining experience for other players.

Scoring, evaluations, marks, agrees, disagrees, dislikes, approval, comments, notations... can't people manage by themselves, make up their own mind, cope with other people even if they're different ? The internet is already sick with people feeling entitled to judge and evaluate other people, do you really want that in your games too ?

Jaimeh

Dungeons are not ''social'' experiences in of themselves, they require group coordination for mechanics (which only becomes relevant on vet mode), but you can do all that without being social whatsoever, as long as you know your role and mechanics. Also, being a fake tank and being asocial are not the same thing, and while being a fake tank can be annoying because of role expectations, being asocial has no bearing on the run whatsover, again, if the person knows what they are doing, so doesn't need to communicate.

Brrrofski

ixthUA wrote: »

So if i understood correctly, if i want a social interaction in a MMO dungeon i need to make a custom group of like-minded players. If i queue for random group i have a good chance to get toxic asocial players (who only want rewards and will ruin the run for everyone), and it is as it must be, because everyone's play styles must be respected?
Well, now i understand why ESO is nearly free (around $8 during sale) and FFXIV is $13 per month.

Think I'd rather do dungeons with toxic people than furries...

And I don't see your point. You say FF doesn't let you solo them. Ok, but what does that have to do with joining a random group. If anything, surely if you made them harder to solo, you'd have more "toxic asocial" players in pugs. So you point kinda makes no sense.

The rating thing for mounts is pretty cool though to be fair.

ixthUA

Looks like there are no social players in this thread. If you use dungeon finder as a place to farm experience and transmutes fast - the best way to do so is to queue as a fake tank (being dps), then rush to the last boss and kill it quick.
Knowing the kind of people going there, i think i will not queue to normal dungeon again.

Zorgon_The_Revenged wrote: »

Sounds like the op has never rocked the castrum at the end of ffxiv`s arr msq.

It's an easy low level dungeon that can be completed with only a half of team, meant for new players to get beginner equipment.

Amottica

Belegnole wrote: »

Yes, everyone should be allowed to PUG.

Pretty much this. The game cannot predict how is social and who is not. Heck, I would suggest anyone who heavily relies on the GF, queueing solo, to do dungeons is probably a little asocial.

ixthUA

Amottica wrote: »

Pretty much this. The game cannot predict how is social and who is not. Heck, I would suggest anyone who heavily relies on the GF, queueing solo, to do dungeons is probably a little asocial.

Very easy to predict how someone will behave with a reputation (karma) system.

Minyassa

Unfortunately, selfish jerks are allowed to do all the same things that everyone else is allowed to do. People just roll their eyes and tolerate it, so the selfish jerks learn that they will always get away with being selfish jerks. If the community wanted the way pugs go to change, they would start disciplining the selfish jerks by vote kicking them immediately, and teach them that they can't be a selfish jerk and still get to advance in the game. But no one has the time for that, everyone just rolls their eyes or swears under their breath and lets it go. So it will never change. Tolerating bad behavior is in fashion and we all get to suffer until something happens to convince people it's worth working to change instead of ignoring.

Amottica

ixthUA wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Pretty much this. The game cannot predict how is social and who is not. Heck, I would suggest anyone who heavily relies on the GF, queueing solo, to do dungeons is probably a little asocial.

Very easy to predict how someone will behave with a reputation (karma) system.

The main purpose of the GF is not to help players meet friends, that is what guilds are for. We use the GF to find groups for clearing dungeons so requiring players to be social, or even worse, punishing those who do not want to be someone's best friend, is not needed.

However, the bigger reason that a Karma system would not be healthy for the GF is it would be open to abuse. Reading the forum about players complaining about pretty much everything imaginable about GF pug groups makes this crystal clear.

SirAndy

Why does any of this even matter to you if you are doing *PUG* dungeons?
I don't get it.

When i queue for a pug run, i fully expect to have to solo the dungeon and carry everyone else.
And i'm perfectly OK with that.

The vast majority of runs go much better than expected and excatly 0% of the runs have been worse than expected.

redspecter23

Minyassa wrote: »

Unfortunately, selfish jerks are allowed to do all the same things that everyone else is allowed to do. People just roll their eyes and tolerate it, so the selfish jerks learn that they will always get away with being selfish jerks. If the community wanted the way pugs go to change, they would start disciplining the selfish jerks by vote kicking them immediately, and teach them that they can't be a selfish jerk and still get to advance in the game. But no one has the time for that, everyone just rolls their eyes or swears under their breath and lets it go. So it will never change. Tolerating bad behavior is in fashion and we all get to suffer until something happens to convince people it's worth working to change instead of ignoring.

There are people that kick selfish jerks all the time. Then the selfish jerks come to the forums and say "I got booted for NO REASON" because they don't believe they did anything wrong. When you get into a random group, you can either adjust to the playstyle of the majority of the group, whether that's fast or slow or whatever or face the consequences of having a different playstyle. That's the way randoms work. I've booted people before and I've been booted before and usually, if I examine my playstyle compared to the group, I could tell you exactly why I got booted. However, the best way to avoid any of that is to group with people you know. It gets mentioned over and over and people complaining about the social aspects of random groups tend to brush that answer away as it takes more effort than clicking "queue"

ixthUA

Amottica wrote: »

The main purpose of the GF is not to help players meet friends, that is what guilds are for. We use the GF to find groups for clearing dungeons so requiring players to be social, or even worse, punishing those who do not want to be someone's best friend, is not needed.

However, the bigger reason that a Karma system would not be healthy for the GF is it would be open to abuse. Reading the forum about players complaining about pretty much everything imaginable about GF pug groups makes this crystal clear.

I guess people play MMO not to meet other people, but to show off their level and gear, or to kill fellow humans.

So today i queued for random veteran instead of normal.
1st group was arx corinium speedrun (farming inferno medusa staff) with fake tank and 3 fake dds that wiped on the 1st trash pull, so i left their team.
2nd team was doing 20k combined damage, but managed to complete the dungeon due to group effort and cooperation.

Example of reputation system from FFXIV: after completing a dungeon (4 players) each player gets a vote he can use on anyone in the team. Getting a total of 500 votes unlocks cool mounts.

redspecter23 wrote: »

When you get into a random group, you can either adjust to the playstyle of the majority of the group, whether that's fast or slow or whatever or face the consequences of having a different playstyle.

If playstyle is harmful to the team i will leave rather than comply.

Sephyr

Amottica wrote: »

ixthUA wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Pretty much this. The game cannot predict how is social and who is not. Heck, I would suggest anyone who heavily relies on the GF, queueing solo, to do dungeons is probably a little asocial.

Very easy to predict how someone will behave with a reputation (karma) system.

The main purpose of the GF is not to help players meet friends, that is what guilds are for. We use the GF to find groups for clearing dungeons so requiring players to be social, or even worse, punishing those who do not want to be someone's best friend, is not needed.

However, the bigger reason that a Karma system would not be healthy for the GF is it would be open to abuse. Reading the forum about players complaining about pretty much everything imaginable about GF pug groups makes this crystal clear.

With FFXIV's, it's really hard to abuse — however the problem you said in your other reply still stands. Neither game has no way of telling who's behavior or performance is bad just based on a number unless there was a ranking system due to competitive mechanics. Battlegrounds comes to mind with this and MMR because you're paired (or supposed to be) with people at your skill level.

FFXIV's Player Commendations are supposed to be given to the most helpful, but there's a lot of flaws indeed. People can choose not to give them out at all, or they'll usually give it to the tank, or if you're a DPS and someone's parsing (when in that game it's frowned upon) it'll go to the highest DD. Yet I've also seen people just throw them at new players, people with the best glamour cosplays, or how interactive they are so the mileage of that system really varies and really isn't indicative of 'how someone will behave'. You don't get that from just numbers. You get that from experience with the group.

Furthermore, FFXIV's systems are more strict in their jobs and how they work with roles. If you queue as a tank, you're going to have tanking abilities, stances, etc by default and you can't just swap to a DPS. AKA, it's harder to fake tank and if you're a bad tank, they're just going to get voted to be dismissed. Same with any other role.


Edit: And for the record to the OP, Matt Firor has said that ESO isn't really an MMO. He's the studio director. While some (including myself) disagree, there's context that there's going to be a lot of differences from conventional systems to other MMOs that we're used to.

SirAndy

ixthUA wrote: »

I guess people play MMO not to meet other people, but to show off their level and gear, or to kill fellow humans.

No

redspecter23

redspecter23 wrote: »

When you get into a random group, you can either adjust to the playstyle of the majority of the group, whether that's fast or slow or whatever or face the consequences of having a different playstyle.

If playstyle is harmful to the team i will leave rather than comply.[/quote]

That's always your choice, and I've made the same choice myself from time to time. However, I do try to run to the needs of the group. If they are running slower because they are new, I slow down. If they power zerg the dungeon, I try to keep up. There are limits of course, but being completely unwilling to adjust at all while also having the expectation that everyone else adjust to your playstyle will usually end in disappointment with the group system as a whole. It's not necessarily up to ZOS to change things or rules to fit a very specific playstyle unless it violates terms of service. It's up to players to decide if they want to adjust, vote kick or leave.

Amottica

ixthUA wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

The main purpose of the GF is not to help players meet friends, that is what guilds are for. We use the GF to find groups for clearing dungeons so requiring players to be social, or even worse, punishing those who do not want to be someone's best friend, is not needed.

However, the bigger reason that a Karma system would not be healthy for the GF is it would be open to abuse. Reading the forum about players complaining about pretty much everything imaginable about GF pug groups makes this crystal clear.

I guess people play MMO not to meet other people, but to show off their level and gear, or to kill fellow humans.

I do not understand how this statement ties into what I have said here since my first post, which you replied to, makes it clear that guilds are amazingly successful for meeting players to play with. It is the very purpose they exist in MMORPGs.

More importantly, when asking the game to set one up with a group of random strangers there is every reason to expect them to have different interests than us, including not caring to be social with complete strangers. No reason to punish them.

NordSwordnBoard

"People who will not cooperate as I see fit are asocial"

Majority rules in the pug that is the fact of the matter. Until rewards reflect the content, we will continue to mix opposite groups with vastly different goals for the same content. It causes friction more than cooperation, so the community suffers and makes threads.

ixthUA

Sephyr wrote: »

FFXIV's Player Commendations are supposed to be given to the most helpful, but there's a lot of flaws indeed. People can choose not to give them out at all, or they'll usually give it to the tank, or if you're a DPS and someone's parsing (when in that game it's frowned upon) it'll go to the highest DD. Yet I've also seen people just throw them at new players, people with the best glamour cosplays, or how interactive they are so the mileage of that system really varies and really isn't indicative of 'how someone will behave'. You don't get that from just numbers. You get that from experience with the group.

It is not perfect, but it works and gives a goal of being social and helpful. A simple CP / commendations ratio could easily tell if player wants to play with others, or just speedrun and get rewards.

Dungeons where players need to cooperate to complete also work towards positive social experience.

Sephyr

ixthUA wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

FFXIV's Player Commendations are supposed to be given to the most helpful, but there's a lot of flaws indeed. People can choose not to give them out at all, or they'll usually give it to the tank, or if you're a DPS and someone's parsing (when in that game it's frowned upon) it'll go to the highest DD. Yet I've also seen people just throw them at new players, people with the best glamour cosplays, or how interactive they are so the mileage of that system really varies and really isn't indicative of 'how someone will behave'. You don't get that from just numbers. You get that from experience with the group.

It is not perfect, but it works and gives a goal of being social and helpful. A simple CP / commendations ratio could easily tell if player wants to play with others, or just speedrun and get rewards.

Dungeons where players need to cooperate to complete also work towards positive social experience.

There's still a few problems because numbers won't tell you if a player is going to 'play well with others' or just 'speedrun' as that happens rather often in FFXIV as well. Especially in the raids there (Crystal Tower, etc). Most of those players have a pretty decent amount of commendations.

And you mention combining this with CP. Did you know that two years ago that CP was the determining factor whether or not you were allowed to stay in a group or not? You had folks booting players below 300-600 CP for the Vet DLC dungeons. Thankfully people stopped that for the most part, but your 'idea' brings that toxicity back into the group finder, especially toward new players who have a low amount of commendations, but can easily gain a large amount of CP. Find a guild where you can play with likeminded people. Others have explained to you what the purpose of group/party finders are for. They're for quick group matching. Not for socializing.

ixthUA

All i got here were explanations why toxic asocial people should use dungeon finder as a convenient place to farm CP. Also i was told that if i want friendly social people i should not use dungeon finder, which is true.
So i switched to veteran dungeons (even though i am into hard content). Changes between normal vs veteran dungeon finder:
1. Average player CP dropped from 900-1500 to 300-600.
2. Fake tanks don't work.
3. Soloing dungeon does not work.
4. Speedrun does not work.
The only disadvantage i found is that queue instead of instant became 2-3 min, which is acceptable.