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Sirvaleen wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Sirvaleen wrote: »

Sorry for your guild but afaik no system can be completely human-proof.
We all make mistakes we have to live with and assume.. since we are the ones at fault.

I mean it's as simple as adding a prompt and a cancel button with a small time frame, pretty standard design features for anything that is gonna be dealing with major purchases.

Saying this when the OP is suggesting extremely standard features because of human nature doesn't really make sense. It would be one thing if there were protections that they blew through, but that's not the case.

The amount of people excusing bad design because OP shares some of the blame is mind boggling tbh.

I could be wrong but I very much doubt adding a cancel button in a MMO is a "simple" thing.

I would love to CTRL-Z any action/interaction I do mistakenly, like buying something I intended to only preview, or craft something with the wrong level, as minor examples. But that option is not there, either because undoing these things is not that easily or securely implemented or well.. we can guess there but we will never know, will we ?

In the specific case of bidding, is it bad design ? Well, I never did that kind of advanced programming in a MMO, nor have I played on another MMO operating with a similar system, so I'm not in a position to objectively evaluate it.

So yes, even if it doesn't make sense to you I stand by what I said, namely that mistakes will always happen because of human nature even when we feel we're entitled to be able to undo them in a virtual environment.

I once upgraded an item to golden, it was the wrong one, it was upsetting, but it took 2 days for me to recover from that, besides the only real damage i took was having a purple item instead of golden.
Is it worth implementing a new system for such a thing? certainly no, how about being able to undo every transaction in the game? also no.

But something that impacts tens of millions of gold? the crown/gold rate is less than 1k but even if we go by 1k, 10 mil gold will be 10k crowns, its about 100 USDs lost, its no longer a purple item in the game.
There is a difference between losing your sandwich, and losing your home, the second one is certainly worth getting an insurance for.

Seriously, allowing for easy recovery being a good or bad thing is not the question, we already have many things we do that for, recovering chars, buy back system, even a dungeon ready check is preventing mistakes.

And in case you do not know how the bidding system works, you give the money, it is just a variable, and it does nothing, until the chosen time for traders to swap, any change done to it doesnt affect the system abit, you can even increase the bid, so putting a wrong "low" amount can be fixed, the other way around not, why is that ?

Also adding a "disable" or "undo" button to the skill youve done, or something youve trader, is hard, because it is interacting with everything else, but adding for an isolated system like this is the easiest job, and we are not talking about a jenior c++ developer, we are talking about Zenimax, with one of the biggest MMOs, when allowing us to bid for 10 different traders which requires really complex algorithm is not a problem for them, adding a "change amount" button to a simple variable is really not that big of a deal, in fact you can do it to increase your bid right not.

You cannot decrease bids because that would require the system to return gold to your bank, but it is not a big matter, saying this shouldnt exist because its hard to implement is more of a lazy excuse than real one, it might take one day of a developer to update this, sure, but its not a miracle.

AlnilamE wrote: »

Wait, you can't decrease bids anymore???

I dont think you were ever able to decrease bids, certainly not after they allowed the 10 bids system

AlnilamE wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Wait, you can't decrease bids anymore???

I don't remember ever being able to decrease bids. I think you could swap to a different trader and bid less there, but actually reducing your bid? Not that I remember.

I thought you could simply reduce your original bid, but I'm probably misremembering. Our most common problem was guild members accidentally bidding on a trader and having to go there and increase the amount, rather than decrease it.

Yup, its funny how everybody is fighting me over "You should be responsible for your own mistakes" but the same system in the same game allows you to correct your other mistakes but increasing your bid.

CaliphStudio wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Wait, you can't decrease bids anymore???

I don't remember ever being able to decrease bids. I think you could swap to a different trader and bid less there, but actually reducing your bid? Not that I remember.

I thought you could simply reduce your original bid, but I'm probably misremembering. Our most common problem was guild members accidentally bidding on a trader and having to go there and increase the amount, rather than decrease it.

Yup, its funny how everybody is fighting me over "You should be responsible for your own mistakes" but the same system in the same game allows you to correct your other mistakes but increasing your bid.

It might come as a surprise, but we're different people. But, yeah, expensive mistakes are expensive.

AlnilamE wrote: »

Wait, you can't decrease bids anymore???

There is no "anymore". You have never been able to decrease or cancel a bid. Not even via a support ticket. This is the way it has always been since the dawn of trader bids.

And yes, it's a basic feature that should be there, and that guildmasters have begged for countless times over the years. And I've witness many cases of erroneous bids that could not be fixed because the bid system lacked this one basic feature.

I became the GM of a trade guild way back in 2015, but I quit the trade guild scene a while ago and I have zero regrets about leaving. The constant fundraising and bid management--coupled with design defects like this--was a source of stress that I would not wish upon anyone.

oldbobdude wrote: »

In a similar vein. I posted a purple/divines jerkin of necropotence. I meant to price it at 45,000. Surprise when I got my item sold mail with 43g attached. Bummer, I must have put 45 as opposed to 45,000.

Luckily this isn't real money!

Yeah, seen variants of that a few times. The only time I've ever accidentally listed something for a fraction of its value, I realized immediately and pulled it down.

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Most of you could never design effective end user systems (web and standalone) based on what you post here.

Not so much of a, "could never," as an, "I really don't want to deal with that headache."

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

A system should be designed to minimize user error, whether that user is with the company or a customer.

In principle? Yeah, sure.

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

I would admit that few companies do that correctly, but making excuses for it is not smart at all. A user interface should aid the user, not allow them to accidentally step in stuff.

I have several prompts in my banking app if I am about to make a payment that is far above my norm. Yet so many of you argue that this should not be done in ESO. I bet some will support anything in ESO, not matter how bad it is.

Not to put too fine a point on this, but, banking is a different industry from video games, and it comes with a great deal more red tape (in most nations.)

The entire reason your Bank knows that payment is above the norm is because it crosses thresholds which trip your bank's fraud tracking systems. Setting up something like that is non-trivial, and maintaining it is even more work.

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

The recent botching of listing with guild vendors (on console) would probably have some here supporting that horrible error finding fault with the user somehow. That is very toxic.

I am commenting on the idea BTW, not individual replies, which is why I didn't reference any.

The problem with the UX on this is a mix of things. The cost and effort needed to implement and maintain additional systems, the amount of inconvenience those systems apply to the players, and the amount of additional confusion they may create.

Could the guild kiosk bidding UI be better? Absolutely.

Does this incident prove that the kiosk bidding UI needs to be better? Not really, no.

At the end of the day, we're not losing a currency that is generated in game. It's not something you're paying real money for.

Compare and contrast when you buy from the crown store and need to go through multiple confirmations to make your purchase. Then look at the Seals store and realize there's no confirmation at all. You can just, *yoink*.

Same logic here, to an extent. Crowns (and gems) are treated far more carefully than gold (or seals) are.

zvavi wrote: »

The idea of bid reduction is very counter intuitive to me, maybe I am not well enough in the usage of the word "bid" but I never saw a system where bid reduction is a thing.

That is because you are used to the real meaning of "bid", and open bid, with a price, that changes anytime somebody bids higher, everybody can see the winning result, and everybody can see who put how many on it.

Eso's bidding system is closed bidding, you cannot see how much somebody else is bidding, you could lose the best trader in the game because of 1 gold and not know it, the only person knowing your bid is you, and the only connection that bid number has with the rest of the game is your guild bank, its fully isolated, it doesnt interact with any part of the game, it is different from listing an item in a guild store, or trading something.

It doesnt matter when or how much you put in there, it just gets used once, on tuesday evening, calculated and either removed, or sent back to your guild bank.

Why is it a bad feature to stop problems for such a system? and listen we are not talking about a mistake where, i put the wrong number, waited a week, then noticed "ooooh i misclicked", it was a mistake that happened, i noticed immediately after, but couldnt do anything. not to offend ZoS but it almost feels like we have no system for such an obvious problem because its intentional, thats what my friends from other games assume when i tell them the story.

Its like everybody is given a paper to write their bid for an item on it, for it to be collected and calculated at noon, but once you write than the number with an extra 0, you cant scratch it and write the real one, thats how eso's bidding system works, not only its counter intuitive, its also stupid, its the simplest feature.

When i talk about your brain automatizing the task, i am not talking about a decision you make to do it, it is what your brain does even if you put your full attention to it, play a video and put a blank page beside your screen, try staring at the page for full 2 minutes without even glancing off and you will realize you have less control over your mind and body than you think.

CaliphStudio wrote: »

When i talk about your brain automatizing the task, i am not talking about a decision you make to do it, it is what your brain does even if you put your full attention to it, play a video and put a blank page beside your screen, try staring at the page for full 2 minutes without even glancing off and you will realize you have less control over your mind and body than you think.

You do realize that if you stopped blaming ZOS for failing to proactively protect you from your own inattention, more people here probably would support your request, right?


There are lots of other reasons why guilds might want the opportunity to decrease or cancel bids, like finding out their competition is looking elsewhere to changing their mind about which trader to target with their highest bid. Maybe ZOS announces an event, and they decide to target a trader in that zone, and so on.

The ability to decrease or cancel bids once made should a relatively simple change resulting in better QOL for lots of guilds. ZOS already has the functionality to cancel and relist in guild trader listings. Part of asking for changes is presenting how it benefits more players than yourself.

Now, it would be nice, but it's a matter of convenience, not really a necessity. Despite what you say, gold is an in-game currency with no intrinsic value. It does not have nor need the same safeguards as Crowns, which do have an intrinsic tie to the real money you paid for them. Gold definitely does not require a full blown banking system with overpayment checks - that's an overreaction to your own mistake.

Finally, the other part of asking for changes is looking at it from ZOS' perspective. Not only does it take time, effort, and thus money for them to add the option, it's also true that the Guild Trader Bid is a gold sink plain and simple. It's not really a problem for ZOS if a couple extra millions of gold gets sucked down the drain by user error.

JoDiMageio wrote: »

CaliphStudio wrote: »

For all those feeling bad for people who trusted me, i was the guild master, the gold was mine, nobody else is hit, so you dont have to worry about the guild

Even if, in your guild, your guildies don't donate (meaning never has anyone ever contributed to the guild bank, since it's "only your gold"), they still contribute their own gold to be able to put items up for sale, and they accept to take a financial hit for their items because of the sales' tax, which goes to the guild. If your guildies are contributing to the success of the guild, then I am sorry but it's their gold, too.

And to show such little respect to them by acting this way and then minimising their participation in your guild, I find it disheartening, and would definitely not want to be in a guild where my GM acts like that.

I understand your original post is about trying to minimise human error, and I get it, the system is imperfect and coukd be better. But when a person is in a position of leadership, they need to be all there when doing tasks and understand the responsibility they have, or if they cannot, then they need to pass on that responsibility to others.

I hope that you have at least been honest with your guildies about this, so that they are aware of the situation.

About me having to be careful, i have already explained in several posts so i will ignore that part.

About me referring to it as "my gold", i do so because it is, the initial money put in the guild bank was mine, and it is a non profit guild, meaning i have to keep depositing more and more every week to keep it running, and when something like this happens, it is again me who has to make up for it, tell me, how is that not my money?

Players are donating and selling to have a trader up and running, a full guild house, and an active and open guild to talk to.

My members like me, and that comes from (despite what you think) the respect i have for them, and the time and attention im willing to give for each, they do not like me because i know how to write down a number, thats not what makes a good GM unfortunately.

Lets not play jokes here, all this "You wasted people's money" is just a comment added to make this whole thing more emotional and get away from the real problem, being millions of money can be lost for simplest of mistakes.

RisenEclipse wrote: »

It is sort of silly that they have a warning message in case I push the max button for crafting items, but no warning message for bids. So they have something for players in case they accidentally try to use 300 butterfly wings, but not if they're bidding millions of gold? Lol It seems like a really simple fix to add, or one of the add-on creators can design in the future.

and yes its so simple even an addon could do it, as simple as "Do not let me put more than X digits into the input bar for bids" where you define what X is.

Meanwhile many people: "It takes time and effort for ZoS to make such a massive change to this system, it makes it complicated and opens the system to manipulation". great ideas indeed.

Jeffrey530 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

You do realize that if you stopped blaming ZOS for failing to proactively protect you from your own inattention, more people here probably would support your request, right?

This. Yes it may take one day of developer's work but why should the developer do so since it is really your mistake? Unless you wanna pay for it yourself then sure.

I also run a mid tier trading guild and bid every week, counting digits and numbers is not that difficult before you press that confirm button, just be more careful next time. I'd rather the developer use the time to do make something else that can benefit everyone than a small number of us that use the bidding system.

I am paying the developer, with eso+, buying every expansion, and crowns, why should devs fix a problem with justice system if a minority of people do it ? coz they are people too, and they have paid for the game too, i sure hope the devs dont look at players and their mistakes the same way some comments here suggest, otherwise the game is gonna fall sooner than expected.

JoDiMageio wrote: »

CaliphStudio wrote: »

About me referring to it as "my gold", i do so because it is, the initial money put in the guild bank was mine, and it is a non profit guild, meaning i have to keep depositing more and more every week to keep it running, and when something like this happens, it is again me who has to make up for it, tell me, how is that not my money?

Players are donating and selling to have a trader up and running, a full guild house, and an active and open guild to talk to.

Anyone who has ever been a GM or worked closely for management of a guild knows that GMs will indeed invest their money into the guild, and that is a noble choice that is often not appreciated enough by guild members who take the services offered for granted.

That being said, as stated in the bolded section, players are also contributing gold through donations and selling, and expect certain things in return, like proper management of the guild, which includes bidding in order to actually have a trader as well as proper management of funds.

Perhaps it is the way the situation was presented, but this comes off more like "oops I done *** up but I don't want to admit it so I'll blame poor design" instead of "oops I done *** up because I wasn't paying attention and now I need to take responsibility for my actions".

Indeed, I think the OP would have had a very different response if the title to the topic had been more along the lines of "My mistake cost 10m gold, here's a design suggestion to prevent it happening to anyone else" rather than claiming that it was purely down to bad design that he lost the 10m gold with no suggestion in the title that it was down to him at all.