The problem with Alkosh 1.0, 2.0, 3.0 etc

CleymenZero · July 2021

I can't remember at what iteration of alkosh were gonna be but I'm gonna say it's the 3rd change we see.

Combine that with the comment where they say that dps are still not gonna wear it and you really gotta ask if they actually WANT it to be used.

The problem with Alkosh is that you could make it do 15k pen in PvE and people still wouldn't use it.

The pen value has never really been the issue, the damage proc always has been.

You gotta think that you're putting this set up against Relequen or another alt set and you have to simply consider that it has to, not do more damage than other sets, but be competitive vs other sets which it just isn't now.

So there you have it. The pen value is not the problem in this case but the damage proc.

WrathOfInnos · July 2021

I agree that’s why DPS don’t wear it, but that’s not necessarily the set’s fault. Imagine if every Magicka DPS said the same thing “Elemental Catalyst doesn’t make my personal DPS high enough, it can’t compete with Siroria or Bahsei so I refuse to wear it”. The same could be said for Z’en’s or Martial Knowledge. Nobody is asking for any of those to be meta while solo, they are group buffs that help your allies.

Sure, tanks can often use Alkosh and free up DPS for other sets, just like healers sometimes use Z’en’s or MK, but when support sets are all occupied, DPS need to be willing to wear something that is good for the group.

codierussell · July 2021

@WrathOfInnos the problem is the pen isn't needed outside of stam comps. So then you have the problem that you have all these sets and no good way to incorporate them. Sure you can put alkosh on a dps, it is a dps loss though. The problem is other sets. Looking at possible support you have yolnakriin, morag tong, catalyst, alkosh, stone talker, olo/spc, mk, zens, jorvulds and ro. Each set you put on a dps is a massive loss losing out on things like relequen or kinras. So either losing minor slayer and a 3k dot or major berserk.

WrathOfInnos · July 2021

codierussell wrote: »

@WrathOfInnos the problem is the pen isn't needed outside of stam comps. So then you have the problem that you have all these sets and no good way to incorporate them. Sure you can put alkosh on a dps, it is a dps loss though. The problem is other sets. Looking at possible support you have yolnakriin, morag tong, catalyst, alkosh, stone talker, olo/spc, mk, zens, jorvulds and ro. Each set you put on a dps is a massive loss losing out on things like relequen or kinras. So either losing minor slayer and a 3k dot or major berserk.

Yeah, I was talking primarily about Stam in Stam groups or Mag in Mag groups. If you’re playing Stam in a Mag group that can be tough. I will say that Mag has a difficult time reaching the pen cap this patch with the 6 Light Armor meta and the nerf to Piercing CP. They need something beyond the typical Infused Crusher + Maj/Min Breach. Alkosh is often appreciated, but other solutions are Torugs, Crystal Weapon, or stacking Necros/Magblades for their penetration passives.

The other thing to consider is how massively buffed Alkosh is. Even as one stamina DPS in a Magicka group, 6k penetration for yourself is huge. Assuming that 6k takes you from 12.2k to 18.2k penetration that is a 13.6% individual DPS increase, far outweighing the proc damage of Relequen. Any proc damage from Alkosh is just additional benefit. In scenarios where cleave is needed Alkosh looks even better, since it debuffs all the enemies that won’t have Crusher applied and Relequen would only be dealing damage to one enemy.

Another way to look at it is that you may need Sharpened Maces/Maul to get 6k pen on an individual build with Relequen, or you could use Alkosh and run Precise Daggers for an extra 14.7% crit. If Alkosh had a 5pc that said “gives you 14.7% crit + AoE proc damage” that would be widely accepted as a great set. In reality it’s even better than that, because Nirn main hand on dual wield or two handed builds could do better, I’m just using crit as a comparison for simplicity.

Also if you take the leap and use Alkosh, that opens the door for a 2nd or 3rd DPS to bring stamina and face none of the problems described. Bottom line is that Alkosh is a good set, and about to become a great set, just underappreciated.

francesinhalover · July 2021

CleymenZero wrote: »

I can't remember at what iteration of alkosh were gonna be but I'm gonna say it's the 3rd change we see.

Combine that with the comment where they say that dps are still not gonna wear it and you really gotta ask if they actually WANT it to be used.

The problem with Alkosh is that you could make it do 15k pen in PvE and people still wouldn't use it.

The pen value has never really been the issue, the damage proc always has been.

You gotta think that you're putting this set up against Relequen or another alt set and you have to simply consider that it has to, not do more damage than other sets, but be competitive vs other sets which it just isn't now.

So there you have it. The pen value is not the problem in this case but the damage proc.

i hate the fact it requires synergies. same for all the vmol sets, it's just annoying to use.
Especially while you are dodging one shots.

Fennwitty · July 2021

If it still applies a debuff on the monsters for the rest of your group-mates ... it's a support set.

If the DPS wear it, sure it helps their individual DPS.

But if the tank or healer wears it, it helps their DPS and then they can wear more sets that further help their dps.

This isn't a complicated problem. If you make a set that buffs the entire group, it's a support set. DPS won't want to wear it if they don't have to. As simple as that.

DPS players care a lot about their individual numbers being high. They don't 'stand out' if everyone else's numbers are high. If Alkosh was a self-only boost it would be used in a heartbeat by DPS players.

Undoubtedly there are tons of DPS players who want the group to succeed first and foremost. But I think it's largely true that DPS players want the big numbers on the log with their names next to it.

stefj68 · July 2021

if you have 0 stam character in your trial, ther is no penetration problems
if you have 1 stam character, he will have an issue, but wearing that set only for him is not an option!

CleymenZero · July 2021

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I agree that’s why DPS don’t wear it, but that’s not necessarily the set’s fault. Imagine if every Magicka DPS said the same thing “Elemental Catalyst doesn’t make my personal DPS high enough, it can’t compete with Siroria or Bahsei so I refuse to wear it”. The same could be said for Z’en’s or Martial Knowledge. Nobody is asking for any of those to be meta while solo, they are group buffs that help your allies.

Sure, tanks can often use Alkosh and free up DPS for other sets, just like healers sometimes use Z’en’s or MK, but when support sets are all occupied, DPS need to be willing to wear something that is good for the group.

Haven't attempted to estimate the amount of damage alkosh would bring and what would be the breaking point for the amount of stams needed for alkosh to be worth it but I often am in groups with 1-3 stams including myself and I manage my pen with let's say a sharpened or precise Maul for me to have an appreciable amount of pen. I'm not necessarily always at pen cap but either very close and sometime over pen periodically during some fights.

The difference with Z'en, Catalyst and MK is that it is clear the amount of damage you'll bring to your group but with pen varrying from group to group, it's hard to estimate the value of alkosh on a dps.

CleymenZero · July 2021

Fennwitty wrote: »

If it still applies a debuff on the monsters for the rest of your group-mates ... it's a support set.

If the DPS wear it, sure it helps their individual DPS.

But if the tank or healer wears it, it helps their DPS and then they can wear more sets that further help their dps.

This isn't a complicated problem. If you make a set that buffs the entire group, it's a support set. DPS won't want to wear it if they don't have to. As simple as that.

DPS players care a lot about their individual numbers being high. They don't 'stand out' if everyone else's numbers are high. If Alkosh was a self-only boost it would be used in a heartbeat by DPS players.

Undoubtedly there are tons of DPS players who want the group to succeed first and foremost. But I think it's largely true that DPS players want the big numbers on the log with their names next to it.

Alkosh buffs damage for the whole group and so does EC, Z'en, MK and a while bunch of sets.

There aren't enough support to run all those sets and support already have their sets for the most part so the argument that "it buffs the whole group's damage, it's a support set" to me isn't valid at all.

kalunte · July 2021

[snip]

if one set does 1k more dmg than it other one, it will be used by the most and the other not, that's it.

there will always be a top set, and subs. just push your thinking forward: if you fight lokke, have luck with atro drop stack then alkosh will do a way better job than rele. blablabla

[edited for baiting]

Septimus_Magna · July 2021

For a long time stam DDs had difficulties reaching the pen cap, if you slap this set on one stam DD you fix that problem. Giving up Relequen on one DD maybe sacrifices 8k dps, if the rest of the DDS can ignore pen in their builds and still reach the pen cap they should make up for that dps loss.

Infused crusher only procs on one enemy so if you're fighting adds as stam DD you're basically always under the pen cap.
The new set Crimson Oath’s Rive also helps with additional pen ofc, stam versions of Catalyst or Z'ens would be nice though.

ajkb78 · July 2021

codierussell wrote: »

@WrathOfInnos the problem is the pen isn't needed outside of stam comps. So then you have the problem that you have all these sets and no good way to incorporate them. Sure you can put alkosh on a dps, it is a dps loss though. The problem is other sets. Looking at possible support you have yolnakriin, morag tong, catalyst, alkosh, stone talker, olo/spc, mk, zens, jorvulds and ro. Each set you put on a dps is a massive loss losing out on things like relequen or kinras. So either losing minor slayer and a 3k dot or major berserk.

Magicka composition groups have been using buff DDs for ages. Personal DPS loss but overall group DPS gain. Not sure what's so hard to understand that this works for stam groups too (but you need a different buff set).

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

For a long time stam DDs had difficulties reaching the pen cap, if you slap this set on one stam DD you fix that problem. Giving up Relequen on one DD maybe sacrifices 8k dps, if the rest of the DDS can ignore pen in their builds and still reach the pen cap they should make up for that dps loss.

Infused crusher only procs on one enemy so if you're fighting adds as stam DD you're basically always under the pen cap.
The new set Crimson Oath’s Rive also helps with additional pen ofc, stam versions of Catalyst or Z'ens would be nice though.

Try something like: tanks - DK in Yolna + Arkasis and Templar in Saxhleel + PA + pearls; healers: warden in SPC+MK and necro in RoJo, take one magcro in zen + EC, put one stamcro in Alkosh and all the rest meta gear setup stam DDs. The OT probably switch drake out for crimson oath for trash.

CleymenZero · July 2021

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

For a long time stam DDs had difficulties reaching the pen cap, if you slap this set on one stam DD you fix that problem. Giving up Relequen on one DD maybe sacrifices 8k dps, if the rest of the DDS can ignore pen in their builds and still reach the pen cap they should make up for that dps loss.

Infused crusher only procs on one enemy so if you're fighting adds as stam DD you're basically always under the pen cap.
The new set Crimson Oath’s Rive also helps with additional pen ofc, stam versions of Catalyst or Z'ens would be nice though.

You hit it right there with the stam versions of Z'en and EC. They tend to release stam versions of almost every mag sets so that is a possibility down the line.

If they do that, then stam will definitely make a very strong comeback in raid comps.

DreadDaedroth · July 2021

Why can't they leave Alkosh set for tanks even if it's medium weight? It's only 1 set in hundreds of more.

WrathOfInnos · July 2021

DreadDaedroth wrote: »

Why can't they leave Alkosh set for tanks even if it's medium weight? It's only 1 set in hundreds of more.

My understanding is that it will still work fine for tanks. They should be able to remove 3-4k armor from enemies pretty easily, maybe even 5k if they build for it. The change is a buff for Alkosh tanks, and more of a buff for Alkosh DPS which can get 6k out of it. Tanks will likely prefer Crimson Oath because it is easier to proc, doesn’t require building weapon damage, and has better 2-4 piece bonuses, but they could use both sets and stack the effects. Basically a QoL improvement for both tanks and stamina DPS.