Auto-break-free and Mechanics (SCP, HRC, etc.)

Saieden · July 2021

While not specifically PTS related, I thought I would put this here for visibility and also because I consider this issue a bit of a design flaw.

Quite simply, mechanics that specifically require you to NOT break free (SCP Ogres) or to time your break (HRC Warrior) under CC, should not trigger automatic break-free buffs, such as from the Slippery CP node and some sets. It should be pretty obvious why this is problematic, but really, something that a player has invested into their build should never be such a detriment that it makes one-shot, and even group-wipe mechanics physically impossible to carry out carry out correctly (nor should players be forced to spend gold or change their gear for this reason alone).

Lughlongarm · July 2021

"It should be pretty obvious why this is problematic"

Not obvious at all, care to explain?

"makes one-shot, and even group-wipe mechanics physically impossible to carry out carry out correctly"
Actual data, greatly suggests otherwise.

redspecter23 · July 2021

You can unslot it for those fights and if you have another cp ability, you can slot that one instead. Yes, it's annoying and I've forgotten to remove it in SCP a few times now, but you do have options that have no cost associated with them to get around the situation.

Saieden · July 2021

Lughlongarm wrote: »

"It should be pretty obvious why this is problematic"

Not obvious at all, care to explain?

Something that is clearly meant to be of benefit to you by keeping you on your feet to stay alive literally gets you and/or your team killed in certain situations, with, and I emphasize, no recourse other than removing the benefit. It's doing the exact opposite of what it's supposed to do in these scenarios.

"makes one-shot, and even group-wipe mechanics physically impossible to carry out carry out correctly"
Actual data, greatly suggests otherwise.

Please show me the data of hundreds of logs group completing vHRC with players slotting in Slippery that refutes the following:

In SCP, you need to get hit by the freeze, so you can take off the homing aoe without dying.
If you break free from the freeze before the aoe hits you, the aoe will kill you.
Slippery always breaks free from the freeze.
Therefore, the aoe will always kill you (eventually, or running from it all fight will make you a functional liability to the group).

In HRC, the only way to avoid this would be to space out everyone with Slippery "in case" they get stoned, which is completely impractical. Otherwise, the logic is pretty much the same: if a player with Slippery gets targeted, they will most likely wipe a good portion, if not the entire group, again, with no recourse.

temerley · July 2021

Hey, have you like slotted slippery on vhrc, does it really trigger? As far as I remember, it's a different button arrangement on console.

Also, you can slot another cp so I don't really see what the big deal on this.

Saieden · July 2021

redspecter23 wrote: »

You can unslot it for those fights and if you have another cp ability, you can slot that one instead. Yes, it's annoying and I've forgotten to remove it in SCP a few times now, but you do have options that have no cost associated with them to get around the situation.

Now that I am aware of this, I will do so until (if?) they fix the interactions. My concern and reason for bringing it up is more generally for the intended function of the mechanics (both player and environment) and the feels-bads for players that aren't aware of these subtleties.

Lughlongarm · July 2021

Saieden wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

"It should be pretty obvious why this is problematic"

Not obvious at all, care to explain?

Something that is clearly meant to be of benefit to you by keeping you on your feet to stay alive literally gets you and/or your team killed in certain situations, with, and I emphasize, no recourse other than removing the benefit. It's doing the exact opposite of what it's supposed to do in these scenarios.

"makes one-shot, and even group-wipe mechanics physically impossible to carry out carry out correctly"
Actual data, greatly suggests otherwise.

Please show me the data of hundreds of logs group completing vHRC with players slotting in Slippery that refutes the following:

In SCP, you need to get hit by the freeze, so you can take off the homing aoe without dying.
If you break free from the freeze before the aoe hits you, the aoe will kill you.
Slippery always breaks free from the freeze.
Therefore, the aoe will always kill you (eventually, or running from it all fight will make you a functional liability to the group).

In HRC, the only way to avoid this would be to space out everyone with Slippery "in case" they get stoned, which is completely impractical. Otherwise, the logic is pretty much the same: if a player with Slippery gets targeted, they will most likely wipe a good portion, if not the entire group, again, with no recourse.

The thing I fail to understand is what forcing you to equip and CP replaceable star or a set that automatically breaks you free, to a PVE dudgeon that punishes you for breaking free. Why should we mess with this effect when the obvious solution is switch the star/set.

Regarding your second remark I thought you are talking about PvP.

Saieden · July 2021

temerley wrote: »

Hey, have you like slotted slippery on vhrc, does it really trigger? As far as I remember, it's a different button arrangement on console.

In the raids I've been in, we were always told to take it off, so I assume yes...

Also, you can slot another cp so I don't really see what the big deal on this.

See my other posts. It's not a big deal for players that can simply slot in another star at no cost, and for me personally I can play just fine without it until I get there. The problem is the bad experience it can cause and the conflict between the implementation and the intended design of each mechanic.

SaintSubwayy · July 2021

a Fix for a non existing Problem, god I love the forums

Why the heck do you even slot slippery in PVE? there is no reason for it, since other Cp's are way stronger atm.

Too lazy to change form your roleplay or PVP Cp's to some PVE CP's...well thats your problem then.

Excelsus · July 2021

Zos, my character is geared up for single target damage and you have multiple enemy encounters in some trials... please fix this, I dont want to have to swap on aoe skills and change my gear.

Grandchamp1989 · July 2021

they should re do it so it isnt an automatical break free but only a “free” break free.
The cost should be the benefit not the auto proc thing.

Jazraena · July 2021

OP isn't saying it's a problem, least of all an unsurmountable one.

He's saying it's bad design. And he's right, especially in respect to less experienced players.

Mind you, a mechanic requiring you to do the exact opposite of what little the game teaches you to do when CCed is also already bad design, but there you go.

Stx · July 2021

Yeah I'm not seeing an issue here. If you know a mechanic is coming that punishes you for breaking free, then I would strongly suggest not slotting a CP star that triggers an auto break free.

jaws343 · July 2021

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

they should re do it so it isnt an automatical break free but only a “free” break free.
The cost should be the benefit not the auto proc thing.

There are already CP effects that do that too. Removing the Auto break free would just ruin the passive. The simple solution is to not use it in PVE or in PVE content where break free is a problem.

There are very few instances where auto break free is going to do much for you in PVE. But a ton of cases where it is extremely valuable in PVP.

Thuragan · July 2021

As far as I remember the stone mechanic in vhrc hm is a synergy, not break free, so why is this a problem?

DrSlaughtr · July 2021

Thuragan wrote: »

As far as I remember the stone mechanic in vhrc hm is a synergy, not break free, so why is this a problem?

The issue is if you get turned to stone and you immediately break free you will likely kill people around you because they won't have time to move away.

Having said that... Just unslot it. They'd probably break something trying to add a specific rule on the warrior to suppress the CP.

Jazraena · July 2021

Stx wrote: »

Yeah I'm not seeing an issue here. If you know a mechanic is coming that punishes you for breaking free, then I would strongly suggest not slotting a CP star that triggers an auto break free.

Again, it's not about being an issue.

Merely a statement of being bad design.

Sephyr · July 2021

Stx wrote: »

Yeah I'm not seeing an issue here. If you know a mechanic is coming that punishes you for breaking free, then I would strongly suggest not slotting a CP star that triggers an auto break free.

^This. It's the same argument for counters of Cloak, but in reverse. My goodness...

WrathOfInnos · July 2021

Thuragan wrote: »

As far as I remember the stone mechanic in vhrc hm is a synergy, not break free, so why is this a problem?

^ this. I have serious doubts that Slippery activates the break free synergy in HRC, and it seems like nobody here has actually tested it.

The SCP ogre fight could be an annoyance, but you can also just walk over to another ice after breaking free. It’s not a death sentence unless you’re very late or don’t notice. More of an issue on last boss HM, but if you have slippery then you could simply claim the shield or stone beam.

Thuragan · July 2021

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Thuragan wrote: »

As far as I remember the stone mechanic in vhrc hm is a synergy, not break free, so why is this a problem?

The issue is if you get turned to stone and you immediately break free you will likely kill people around you because they won't have time to move away.

Having said that... Just unslot it. They'd probably break something trying to add a specific rule on the warrior to suppress the CP.

Again.. the mechanic is a synergy, you cannot break free from it.

Kusto · July 2021

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

a Fix for a non existing Problem, god I love the forums

Why the heck do you even slot slippery in PVE? there is no reason for it, since other Cp's are way stronger atm.

Too lazy to change form your roleplay or PVP Cp's to some PVE CP's...well thats your problem then.

Slippery is in red tree, what's way stronger than that? I already have max hp, armor and regen slotted. I also have all passives. Theres nothing else to slot. It makes sense to use this on my tank as break free costs the most stamina, rolldodge is also good but its cheaper and can already be reduced further with well fitted traits. I had deaths in vet dlc dungeons when something stuns me and then boss or elite add immediately one shots me before I can break free.

DrSlaughtr · July 2021

Thuragan wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Thuragan wrote: »

As far as I remember the stone mechanic in vhrc hm is a synergy, not break free, so why is this a problem?

The issue is if you get turned to stone and you immediately break free you will likely kill people around you because they won't have time to move away.

Having said that... Just unslot it. They'd probably break something trying to add a specific rule on the warrior to suppress the CP.

Again.. the mechanic is a synergy, you cannot break free from it.

Gotcha.