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Stamdk Spammable #2
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Donatoo✭✭WillyOneBlood wrote: »WillyOneBlood wrote: »WillyWillyOneBlood wrote: »I main a StamDK and I think Stone Fist is one o the best spammables in the game if you use it properly. My fist in a group with all the usual buffs hits for 18k, It's around 9/10k unbuffed. And it's the only spammable I can think of that applies a debuff (stagger) that increases damage taken from the whole group and the first hit is aoe. I've played for years and done almost everything, all achievements etc apart from the dlc trial trifectas on my StamDK, I don't understand why it gets so much hate. People need to stop comparing all the classes and how this class doesn't have that but that class has this. People need to work with what each class does.
As in the #1 thread, please stop derailing and baiting.
Thank you
What? Op asked about having a second spammable for a DK. I replied about the Stone fist being good enough not to need a second spammable. How is that derailing or baiting?[snip]
You are telling people they dont know how to play. But I think its been proven enough that there legit isnt a place for stonefist in pvp. Also I dont have to add anything because most of it has already been said thusfar and I agree with their ideas and perspective. I dont think that your experience in overland zone with stonefist and their achievements add anything constructive to this discussion either, so lets leave it at that.
I'd ask that you leave discussion because I dont want to open a #3 thread.
Thanks.
Post this in the PvP forum if you don't want a PvE perspective on it. You didn't mention anywhere when you made this thread that is was only about PvP. [snip] If you post something in a forum, you need to be prepared to discuss other people's opinion about it. If you don't want that then make a private PvP thread for you and only the people that agree with you. [snip]
The reason we have to make multiple threads is because people bait and derail, or perhaps troll threads like these with their overland zone experiences of a skill. You are the reason they are being closed down, also I didnt ask you to come here and waste your precious time, you did that.
[snip]
[edited for baiting & to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 19, 2021 5:07PM2 -
ke.sardenb14_ESO✭✭✭ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »WillyOneBlood wrote: »I main a StamDK and I think Stone Fist is one o the best spammables in the game if you use it properly. My fist in a group with all the usual buffs hits for 18k, It's around 9/10k unbuffed. And it's the only spammable I can think of that applies a debuff (stagger) that increases damage taken from the whole group and the first hit is aoe. I've played for years and done almost everything, all achievements etc apart from the dlc trial trifectas on my StamDK, I don't understand why it gets so much hate. People need to stop comparing all the classes and how this class doesn't have that but that class has this. People need to work with what each class does.
This thread isn't about PvE and the issues with Poop Fist in PvP have been explained so often that I can't be bothered to do so.
The skill doesn't work and there is no reason why Stamdk should be pushed into a niche that it can never compete in and the only reason it's pushed into this niche is the lack of an instant meele spammable.
Please don't translate your experience from casual gameplay to PvP as it's not helping the discussion at all.
This thread doesn't explicitly state PvP or PvE only, nor is it in the PvP forum. As the game is still going to be a blend of both playstyles, both playstyles need to be considered when looking at the issues the DK is facing.
A change towards a instant meele spammable would affect PvE very slightly, while the effects on PvP are huge and this is why the topic is more PvP related than PvE.
I disagree, PvP meta shift drastically, but there is nothing dictating your ability to participate. Your sets can also make as much a difference as your skills and skill level.
PvE is rigid, what makes or breaks a class are it's skill and buffs it provides. On top of being good yourself,your class must bring utility to your party that is unique, or👏there👏is👏no👏place👏for👏you. Any stamplar main and they can confirm this. The day stone giant became the spammable was the day DK dps fell drastically, and this was back when it was insta-cast
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ke.sardenb14_ESO✭✭✭Lets focus on what we would like to see the DK do, how we think it could be improved.Edited by ke.sardenb14_ESO on July 19, 2021 4:58PM0
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ke.sardenb14_ESO✭✭✭It is honestly my experience that DK threads devolves when it becomes about individual skill or excluding experiences. Whether it be PvE vs. PvP, or MagDK vs StamDK.1
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Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »Lets focus on what we would like to see the DK do, how we think it could be improved.
Just remove the AOE and ranged component. Turn it into an insta cast DD ability. Perhaps keep the stagger effect as a bonus. As long as it doesn't lock you into a clunky animation like it does now, I'm golden.1 -
Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »@Alucardo
Make it posion, and we have a spammable
It's in the earthern heart tree and related to stone, so should remain physical I think. I don't know of any other stam spammables that aren't physical either, except maybe cutting dive which is "bleed".0 -
Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »@Alucardo
Necro skull is disease.
It's a magical flying skull, and not much of a spammable if you ask me... stone giant is rock.0 -
Donatoo✭✭Earthen heart is pretty diverse in its damage types, corrosive being poison, the rest physical, fire and magic damage.
Unless they are revamping empowering chains I think it would make sense for it to be physical, or disease damage to give access to a defile with the new CP system which DK could really use in the absence of it on reverb.
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Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WillyOneBlood wrote: »
How is it trolling? They genuinely want a spammable, and have been quite adamant about that. [snip]
[edited to remove quote & for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 19, 2021 6:18PM0 -
Donatoo✭✭why not ask for a 2nd spammable for everyclass
not only dk?
Personally I'm not asking for two spammables, if you can even consider stone fist a spammable in the first place.
I think most people in here just want something functional that isnt mega clunky to use in rotation with other skills.
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BattleAxe✭✭✭✭✭Here is my $.02 how about leave the ground stomp and more or less make the 3 subsequent hits coat your weapon in stone massively increasing the damage of light attacks and applying stagger0 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Here is my $.02 how about leave the ground stomp and more or less make the 3 subsequent hits coat your weapon in stone massively increasing the damage of light attacks and applying stagger
I think it's best to have a skill with no additional requirement about how it works. Just press the skill and you deal damage instantly.
DK isn't a class that has lots of synergy with light attacks outside of the damage they add, but stamdk is far more likely to blockcast stuff which this skill would completely counteract along with the ability being split into two parts hurting the performance overall.0 -
BattleAxe✭✭✭✭✭Here is my $.02 how about leave the ground stomp and more or less make the 3 subsequent hits coat your weapon in stone massively increasing the damage of light attacks and applying stagger
I think it's best to have a skill with no additional requirement about how it works. Just press the skill and you deal damage instantly.
DK isn't a class that has lots of synergy with light attacks outside of the damage they add, but stamdk is far more likely to blockcast stuff which this skill would completely counteract along with the ability being split into two parts hurting the performance overall.
Dk has molten armament which buffs heavy attacks. Stagger would deal its own damage with the aoe then allow 3 buffed light attacks which would open up more time to utilize other skills in between light attacks. Essentially casting stone giant once every day 20 seconds to maintain stagger.Edited by BattleAxe on July 19, 2021 9:45PM0 -
CleymenZero✭✭✭✭✭
✭CleymenZero wrote: »ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »Make stonefist the stomp the ability instead, remove cast time, and give StamDK a 360 cleave as a spammable, which would:
1. Be unique, since for stam at the very least
2. Syngize with melee builds in PvE content, and make soloing content easier.
3. Give StamDK something in PvP for battles where one is surrounded or out numbered.
Outside of that, a altering the another ardent flame ability such as empowering chains to something akin to poison chains. Depending on how it is implemented it could be solid, but it could also have its drawbacks in PvE, that may not be an issue in PvP.
With the trend to make stam more functional atnrange to compete with mag, I don't think the stomp is the way to go.
Just remove the cast time and stomp from the ability therefore double now build will be more viable.
Being a ranged skill is trash as it comes with a minimum traveltime, especially when the skill will never be used outside of meele range anyway.
It's just a huge downside 99% of the time for the small benefit it provides by having range for a situation you don't want to be in to begin with.
Not to mention that the skill becomes useless the second someone pops shield ult.
Meele and instant are what a spammable for Stamdk need to be.
There are enough spammables for Stone Giant to remain ranged. Stamden has one and doesn't even use it unless it's a double bow build, Stamsorc now has one but isn't always used, stamblade has the most OP spammable, stamcro also has a spammable and doesn't really use it.
My with this is that many classes already have spammables but don't even use it so the need for a spammable when it has one already is questionable. I think the channel and melee stomp need to be removed for it to be a really good spammable.
The issue here is I'm approaching this from a PvE then PvP perspective whereas I think you're mainly approaching it from a PvP perspective.1 -
ke.sardenb14_ESO✭✭✭Here is my $.02 how about leave the ground stomp and more or less make the 3 subsequent hits coat your weapon in stone massively increasing the damage of light attacks and applying stagger
If I want crystal weapon, I can play just Sorcerer, or I can just use crushing weapon. I think abilities like this have their own weaving issues as well.Edited by ke.sardenb14_ESO on July 19, 2021 10:31PM0 -
ke.sardenb14_ESO✭✭✭why not ask for a 2nd spammable for everyclass not only dk?
Every other class effectively shares its spammable with mag and stam. This effectively standardizes them, and streamlines the play style, in a way DK has not been, so I think we are asking for the spammable to be fixed not changed.0 -
ke.sardenb14_ESO✭✭✭@CleymenZero
I play PvE too and approach it more from that both perspectives. The issues first is, most of your other skills are melee. So stamDK is not built to fight from range, you would still need to get up there to do your thing. For the warden, all of your abilities can operate from a solid distance. Secondly as mentioned before travel time is still an issue with damage, it is why nerco and melee warden don't use class spammables and stick with the weapons skill in this instance too. The same is true for DK, if just one other person is maintaining stagger, you will always get more damage out of wrecking blow.Edited by ke.sardenb14_ESO on July 19, 2021 10:53PM0 -
BattleAxe✭✭✭✭✭ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »Here is my $.02 how about leave the ground stomp and more or less make the 3 subsequent hits coat your weapon in stone massively increasing the damage of light attacks and applying stagger
If I want crystal weapon, I can play just Sorcerer, or I can just use crushing weapon. I think abilities like this have their own weaving issues as well.
The difference here one cast gives 3 uses not 1 so good for sustain and allows use of something else to fill the space in between casts0 -
ke.sardenb14_ESO✭✭✭ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »Here is my $.02 how about leave the ground stomp and more or less make the 3 subsequent hits coat your weapon in stone massively increasing the damage of light attacks and applying stagger
If I want crystal weapon, I can play just Sorcerer, or I can just use crushing weapon. I think abilities like this have their own weaving issues as well.
The difference here one cast gives 3 uses not 1 so good for sustain and allows use of something else to fill the space in between casts
Right, but as it stands the DK suffers from a packed bar already. This is true in PvE and PvP, there is hardly room for that, a real spammable, and all the dots you need to use to do the damage other classes do.0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭My perspective on why our spammable should be Stam Whip and not Stone Giant:
1. The Seething Fury effect can be moved to the base ability of Whip. This has a really cool visual effect, and enforces the default pattern of Breath-Claw-Whip-Whip-Whip across Mag and Stam, and also encourages the use of Flames of Oblivion over Magelight or Camo Hunter: all of which very much augments and solidifies DK Class Identity and indirectly helps NB maintain their identity, by way of increasing the trade-offs from slotting Camo Hunter / Magelight versus the class source of the Major Crit buffs.
2. Stone Giant can be revised into a skill which is best cast every 6 seconds, to maximize the Ult Gen from Mountain's Blessing while staying resource efficient. This would substantially help tune-up the StamDK "engine".
3. Revising Stone Giant into the main source of Mountain's Blessing's Ult Gen for sDK will free up Fragmented Shield from being a must-slot for so many PvP DKs, so that it can be properly balanced around being a skill for PvE Tanks and DK Healers - rather than a self-buff for self-healing.Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast1 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Urzigurumash wrote: »Breath-Claw-Whip-Whip-Whip
More or less this should be the instructional video for how to play DK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXC4erlcL0g Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
ke.sardenb14_ESO✭✭✭Urzigurumash wrote: »My perspective on why our spammable should be Stam Whip and not Stone Giant:
1. The Seething Fury effect can be moved to the base ability of Whip. This has a really cool visual effect, and enforces the default pattern of Breath-Claw-Whip-Whip-Whip across Mag and Stam, and also encourages the use of Flames of Oblivion over Magelight or Camo Hunter: all of which very much augments and solidifies DK Class Identity and indirectly helps NB maintain their identity, by way of increasing the trade-offs from slotting Camo Hunter / Magelight versus the class source of the Major Crit buffs.
2. Stone Giant can be revised into a skill which is best cast every 6 seconds, to maximize the Ult Gen from Mountain's Blessing while staying resource efficient. This would substantially help tune-up the StamDK "engine".
3. Revising Stone Giant into the main source of Mountain's Blessing's Ult Gen for sDK will free up Fragmented Shield from being a must-slot for so many PvP DKs, so that it can be properly balanced around being a skill for PvE Tanks and DK Healers - rather than a self-buff for self-healing.
So there is one assumption we are all making; that whip will not be the spammable. I assume that because, DK is the only class stamina doesn't share a spammable with mag.0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »My perspective on why our spammable should be Stam Whip and not Stone Giant:
1. The Seething Fury effect can be moved to the base ability of Whip. This has a really cool visual effect, and enforces the default pattern of Breath-Claw-Whip-Whip-Whip across Mag and Stam, and also encourages the use of Flames of Oblivion over Magelight or Camo Hunter: all of which very much augments and solidifies DK Class Identity and indirectly helps NB maintain their identity, by way of increasing the trade-offs from slotting Camo Hunter / Magelight versus the class source of the Major Crit buffs.
2. Stone Giant can be revised into a skill which is best cast every 6 seconds, to maximize the Ult Gen from Mountain's Blessing while staying resource efficient. This would substantially help tune-up the StamDK "engine".
3. Revising Stone Giant into the main source of Mountain's Blessing's Ult Gen for sDK will free up Fragmented Shield from being a must-slot for so many PvP DKs, so that it can be properly balanced around being a skill for PvE Tanks and DK Healers - rather than a self-buff for self-healing.
So there is one assumption we are all making; that whip will not be the spammable. I assume that because, DK is the only class stamina doesn't share a spammable with mag.
This has only been true since StamSorc was given Crystal Weapon. Like I said in the other thread, StamSorc and StamDK were the original D Swing classes in PvP. With the addition of Warden and Necro as the superlative vehicles for conveying non-class spammables, the necessity for a class spammable for StamSorc and StamDK became paramount. The issues with Stone Giant itself as a spammable are discussed elsewhere in-depth. I meant only to describe why I think, in the greater picture, StamDK should have StamWhip as its spammable.
To re-iterate in less words:
1. The Seething Fury flaming eye effect is too cool for every DK to not be sporting it
2. Mountain's Blessing Ult Gen is why StamDK should have a must-slot skill in Earthen Heart
3. Frag Shield is intended to be primarily be a group buff, not a self buff, and perhaps could be buffed or adjusted accordingly without regard for PvP StamDK self-buffingXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Omnia✭✭✭WillyOneBlood wrote: »WillyWillyOneBlood wrote: »I main a StamDK and I think Stone Fist is one o the best spammables in the game if you use it properly. My fist in a group with all the usual buffs hits for 18k, It's around 9/10k unbuffed. And it's the only spammable I can think of that applies a debuff (stagger) that increases damage taken from the whole group and the first hit is aoe. I've played for years and done almost everything, all achievements etc apart from the dlc trial trifectas on my StamDK, I don't understand why it gets so much hate. People need to stop comparing all the classes and how this class doesn't have that but that class has this. People need to work with what each class does.
As in the #1 thread, please stop derailing and baiting.
Thank you
What? Op asked about having a second spammable for a DK. I replied about the Stone fist being good enough not to need a second spammable. How is that derailing or baiting?[snip]
The reasons as to why Poop Fist is trash have been repeated over and over again, there is no point repeating them because everyone who has ever used the ability in PvP knows that it is trash.
You're baiting by saying the ability is good and people don't know how to use it, please refrain from doing so.
[edited to remove quote]
The last few things you stated simply are not true - I use it and do not think it's trash in PVP. I believe I would fall under the "everybody" category. The hate whispers I get in PVP from this skill alone, are priceless.
Players are offended by being killed by the poo rock or something, they act like they would rather be killed by a well placed dizzying swing. So many people accusing me of spamming SG...imagine that...
The best use I have found is on runners -- they get a poo rock to the back of the head because of the RANGE. It's the best thing I have if Take Flight isn't up and I don't use a gap closer.
Please don't ask for the range to be taken away, if anything the cast time or initial AoE. It's by no means a perfect skill, but it's not total trash.
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ke.sardenb14_ESO✭✭✭@Urzigurumash
1. So I have to assume that after 3 years of begging for a poison whip, that we will not get one. We all know how whip will work, but assume what we got is what we get, I is beneficial look into improving stonegiant.
2. StamDK has the busiest bar in PvE, there is no room on your bar for a passive toogle and another spammable. And in PvP it is I imagine it would be worse since you would need to balance resistance armor buffs
3. This could work, but again, I'm considering the path of least resistance, you propose 3 skill changes. When it would be far easier to improve one.0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »@Urzigurumash
1. So I have to assume that after 3 years of begging for a poison whip, that we will not get one. We all know how whip will work, but assume what we got is what we get, I is beneficial look into improving stonegiant.
2. StamDK has the busiest bar in PvE, there is no room on your bar for a passive toogle and another spammable. And in PvP it is I imagine it would be worse since you would need to balance resistance armor buffs
3. This could work, but again, I'm considering the path of least resistance, you propose 3 skill changes. When it would be far easier to improve one.
All true, but those flaming eyes, I gotta have em.
Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
ke.sardenb14_ESO✭✭✭Urzigurumash wrote: »ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »@Urzigurumash
1. So I have to assume that after 3 years of begging for a poison whip, that we will not get one. We all know how whip will work, but assume what we got is what we get, I is beneficial look into improving stonegiant.
2. StamDK has the busiest bar in PvE, there is no room on your bar for a passive toogle and another spammable. And in PvP it is I imagine it would be worse since you would need to balance resistance armor buffs
3. This could work, but again, I'm considering the path of least resistance, you propose 3 skill changes. When it would be far easier to improve one.
All true, but those flaming eyes, I gotta have em.
It is the single most metal thing in the game and I miss it everyday.2
This discussion has been closed.