Jameson18 wrote: »

Undeath passive is all that really needs it.

They also should not increase the psijic passive either.

Yes, that's a problem as well but at least that's a skill, not a passive.

MrMazurski wrote: »

Tank is the answer to high dmg burst. And vice versa. The current Devs decision still leaves mostly players with these two extreme overall bulides.
TTK is currently ok. Not great not terrible

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7326857#Comment_7326857

You wanna nerf Pariah, I'll just change it to Fortified Brass or even Armor Master. Pariah is not one set that allows you to maintain high armor value.

Is Vampire's Undeath OP? Possible with a tank, but the same as with Cloak NB or even just sneaking, where with a vampire is so good. Here's the problem with the Vampire for me.

changing or the nerf of two things will not change anything. Because I am able to change the setup so that my statistics remain at a similar level.

Do you want to get rid of tanks? Imagine playing PvP without them. One big roulette who roll your combo first.

Deliberation? and that doesn't only up with time cast / channeling skills?

edit: it's easier to write down your main feelings than to upload a video. This will reach more people and make it easier for people to relate to the conversation and become familiar with it. Not every person is good at listening to English, and I prefer text if I don't know the person's voice. Especially since Im not native English

I gave everyone the bottom line. I'm not saying anything is OP. I'm saying that Vamp 3 and Pariah contribute to a "tank meta". It becomes harder to kill a player the closer they get to being killed. I think those who don't use the Undeath passive are feeling the impact of the short TTK much more than those who do. It pigeonholes players into playing something that they don't want to just to survive. ZOS has a good idea to reduce the damage taken across the board because it helps those who don't use vampire's undeath passive. If people are afraid that this will lead to a tank meta, I'm saying, address Undeath and Pariah first because those directly contribute to players being harder to kill - they're actually designed to work that way.

Remathilis wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Basically, nerf Vampire's Undeath passive and Mark Of The Pariah. I hope ZOS will see these as the real problem, not the increased mitigation to battle spirit.

https://youtu.be/7_Yz2h7X-y8

Considering that drain, mist, and b4b have all been nerfed after the lackluster revamp in Greymoor, I say if you're going to nerf undeath, you might as well just turn vampirism into a skin and werewolf into a polymorph and delete them from the game.

No, that's extreme. Vampirism can still be functional. Remove the non-vampire-skill cost penalties. My vampire will still be a vampire because I never chose vampirism for the undeath passive in the first place. Vampirism will become niche like it should have been in the first place.

What makes you think Pariah is the only set that offers mitigation? I don't even run it. I will use other sets because Pariah is suboptimal until you get into execute range and at that point you're probably dead anyways.

I have 48k resist in CP without Pariah. Nerfing it will do nothing.

StarOfElyon wrote: »

MrMazurski wrote: »

Tank is the answer to high dmg burst. And vice versa. The current Devs decision still leaves mostly players with these two extreme overall bulides.
TTK is currently ok. Not great not terrible

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7326857#Comment_7326857

You wanna nerf Pariah, I'll just change it to Fortified Brass or even Armor Master. Pariah is not one set that allows you to maintain high armor value.

Is Vampire's Undeath OP? Possible with a tank, but the same as with Cloak NB or even just sneaking, where with a vampire is so good. Here's the problem with the Vampire for me.

changing or the nerf of two things will not change anything. Because I am able to change the setup so that my statistics remain at a similar level.

Do you want to get rid of tanks? Imagine playing PvP without them. One big roulette who roll your combo first.

Deliberation? and that doesn't only up with time cast / channeling skills?

edit: it's easier to write down your main feelings than to upload a video. This will reach more people and make it easier for people to relate to the conversation and become familiar with it. Not every person is good at listening to English, and I prefer text if I don't know the person's voice. Especially since Im not native English

I gave everyone the bottom line. I'm not saying anything is OP. I'm saying that Vamp 3 and Pariah contribute to a "tank meta". It becomes harder to kill a player the closer they get to being killed. I think those who don't use the Undeath passive are feeling the impact of the short TTK much more than those who do. It pigeonholes players into playing something that they don't want to just to survive. ZOS has a good idea to reduce the damage taken across the board because it helps those who don't use vampire's undeath passive. If people are afraid that this will lead to a tank meta, I'm saying, address Undeath and Pariah first because those directly contribute to players being harder to kill - they're actually designed to work that way.

They do not contribute to the tank meta, they are one of the choices you can make when taking this way. How much is Pariah currently giving? 80 armor for 1%HP? Usually at 25% you're dead anyway. It's a set just pumped over the internet, nothing else

Unfortunately, most of the complaints are of the type remove tanks and give me rollercoaster and wild west type duels who have the better one combo setup and faster button presses. not everyone wants to die in 5 seconds

And there is currently no pure tank meta. Tank meta was two years ago. Back then there was one big circus with it.

notyuu wrote: »

Or....hear me out on this
We make oblivion damage into a DoT which scales up (with no upper cap) per tick based on how much resistance is bypassed on the target, meaning it would melt tanks and other high armour value targets BUT it would also require specing into given that oblivion damage is kinda hard to get.

or maybe just arm yourself with high penetration + resistance debuff, than do one thing that kills the tanks because somebody doesn't like to deal with the tank


Sorry, but I dont understand the point of this topic anymore.

MrMazurski wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

MrMazurski wrote: »

Tank is the answer to high dmg burst. And vice versa. The current Devs decision still leaves mostly players with these two extreme overall bulides.
TTK is currently ok. Not great not terrible

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7326857#Comment_7326857

You wanna nerf Pariah, I'll just change it to Fortified Brass or even Armor Master. Pariah is not one set that allows you to maintain high armor value.

Is Vampire's Undeath OP? Possible with a tank, but the same as with Cloak NB or even just sneaking, where with a vampire is so good. Here's the problem with the Vampire for me.

changing or the nerf of two things will not change anything. Because I am able to change the setup so that my statistics remain at a similar level.

Do you want to get rid of tanks? Imagine playing PvP without them. One big roulette who roll your combo first.

Deliberation? and that doesn't only up with time cast / channeling skills?

edit: it's easier to write down your main feelings than to upload a video. This will reach more people and make it easier for people to relate to the conversation and become familiar with it. Not every person is good at listening to English, and I prefer text if I don't know the person's voice. Especially since Im not native English

I gave everyone the bottom line. I'm not saying anything is OP. I'm saying that Vamp 3 and Pariah contribute to a "tank meta". It becomes harder to kill a player the closer they get to being killed. I think those who don't use the Undeath passive are feeling the impact of the short TTK much more than those who do. It pigeonholes players into playing something that they don't want to just to survive. ZOS has a good idea to reduce the damage taken across the board because it helps those who don't use vampire's undeath passive. If people are afraid that this will lead to a tank meta, I'm saying, address Undeath and Pariah first because those directly contribute to players being harder to kill - they're actually designed to work that way.

They do not contribute to the tank meta, they are one of the choices you can make when taking this way. How much is Pariah currently giving? 80 armor for 1%HP? Usually at 25% you're dead anyway. It's a set just pumped over the internet, nothing else

Unfortunately, most of the complaints are of the type remove tanks and give me rollercoaster and wild west type duels who have the better one combo setup and faster button presses. not everyone wants to die in 5 seconds

And there is currently no pure tank meta. Tank meta was two years ago. Back then there was one big circus with it.

notyuu wrote: »

Or....hear me out on this
We make oblivion damage into a DoT which scales up (with no upper cap) per tick based on how much resistance is bypassed on the target, meaning it would melt tanks and other high armour value targets BUT it would also require specing into given that oblivion damage is kinda hard to get.

or maybe just arm yourself with high penetration + resistance debuff, than do one thing that kills the tanks because somebody doesn't like to deal with the tank


Sorry, but I dont understand the point of this topic anymore.

I put tank meta in quotes for a reason; I'm addressing things that I have seen said. To those people who believe another "tank meta" is around the corner if the battle spirit changes go through, my suggestion is that Undeath and Pariah (two things designed to make it harder to kill a player at low health) be dealt with first. Like I said in the video, these are sacred cows and the same people who will complain about a tank meta will do anything to not lose the mitigation granted by Pariah and Undeath.

I still think 30% mitigation is too much. Maybe make Undeath a passive that only affects vampire channeled abilities like mist form or vampiric drain. So the passive could always be in effect even at full health and make using the drain skill less risky.

twing1_ wrote: »

A change I would like to see to undeath is to make it apply only while you have a vampire skill slotted.

This would make it so that not everyone can just get bit and receive the benefit, only those who invest into the vampire skill line and actually use vampire skills in their builds would. This would allow for vampire to still be a niche build, while also toning down its usefulness for generalized builds, as right now it feels almost mandatory to be a vampire, even if you aren't planning on using vampire active skills.

It would also make it so that while going on the offensive, most players would drop this powerful passive (as most PvP players who are vamps only use mist on their back bar, and forego all other vampire skills) and leave them vulnerable to counter attack.

Proposed change: While a vampire skill is slotted, reduces your damage taken by up to 30% based on your missing Health.

Perfectly okay with that assuming they get rid of the cost increase or make the skills better to slot.

Situational CC w no other affects, wep buff that kills you, drain that does basically no damage, and spammable that kills you in melee range only.

Okay.. Pariah and stage 3 Vamp is a potent combo, but it is by no means the reason for the outrageous mitigation on the PTS.

1) Ironclad CP added
2) Battlespirit mitigation increased
3) Ease of access to major protection and major maim

I might be forgetting one, but all that raw mitigation on top of resistances and blocking is pretty tough to crack.

On PTS I'm running juggernaut CP, Ironclad CP, flare (major prot and 10% regen is very much worth a slot), and also the CP that gives you mitigation per negative effect on you, which even in duels is worth 5 to 15% mitigation. Plus there are still the CPs for 10% mitigation vs single target or AoE which can replace resilience if you choose.

You don't even need to run defense sets anymore and you're still tanky as all hell because the amount of mitigation from just CP, Battlespirit, and flare is insane.

I wouldn't care if they did nerf vampire, as I don't use it, but pariah isn't that great especially when there are multiple other sets that offer 8k armor as 5 pieces for easy conditions.

xHotguy6pack wrote: »

For all the people who say don't need pariah. Or saying pariah isn't the only problem you can use other mitigation sets. Well Yea you can.....but pariah is the one mostly EVERYONE is using no matter the build. It's overperforming and needs a nerf. Just because you don't "need" it doesn't mean people still won't use it. No changes to the most popular mitigation set in the game then increasing TTK and adding more damage reduction to CP and not adding any type of damage or reducing effectiveness of pariah will lead to yet another tank meta which is boring and lame. Gonna be another stam tank meta of pay to win classes.......

This is so wrong. Take a look at the calculations first of how much Pariah really gives. And your EVERY one is pumped by YT and others builds what you can find on google. Which are often very weird, lame, and just made to suit every class.

And no, Pariah is not a must have def set. The funnier one exists than the Orssinium dlc. So since 2015 or 2016. And only now they started to cry that he is too strong. It is not.

Pariah and stage 3 is definitely very strong

Xahran wrote: »

Pariah isn't overperforming to begin with. It is just meta-chasers following Youtubers words as if they were the words of god almighty, nothing new here. Also, undeath passive, like all mitigations, is susceptible to diminishing returns so whoever uses it with pariah, plus other sources of mitigations, is prolly getting like 3 to 6% damage reduction out of it, which is not worth the massive hit to sustain from stage 3. Again ttk is as low as it gets, nerfing tankiness shouldn't be your problem nor increasing it should fix ttk like the devs believe. Reducing damage is the way. Only reason anyone would want ttk to get lower than it currently is probably because he is playing a gank build and is sad some people aren't dying in 5 secs.

As a top tier pvp’r and dueler I can confirm pariah and un death combined is definitely over performing, and u are getting more than 3-6% (660 armor is 1% and 660 pen is 1%) pariah provides like 10880 full proc, that’s 16.4% damage reduction combined with the 30% you get from undeath you’re at 46.4% additional armor that isn’t even considering the base armor u have plus minor protection <5%> that most pvp’rs have in their kit, yeah a good player can kill someone wearing that but u put a good player in that set and they become very powerful

Now why Pariah is popular, you ask? Not because it is overperforming, but because it is so F****** RELIABLE, and there is a very big difference between something being reliable and something being outright broken op.

Let's have a look at its pvp competitors:
Mazzatun? Very long cooldown and nowhere near the amout of resistances.
Buffer of the Swift? Remove that max magicka and replace it with max health and reduce the mitigation a bit and then it will be a good competitor.
Armor master is actually good but not easily crafted, sucks *** on heavy and might not always be there for you when you are cced and getting pummeled
Crest of Cyrodiil? Lol
Ironblood? Take that 50% snare away from my face
Impregnable? Malacath and pen builds will wipe you out
Warrior-Poet? An actually good competitor untill you have a Warden around
Immortal Warrior? *** 2 and 4 and the buff won't be always there for you
Juggernaut? Same, very long cooldown and most of the time you are walking with only 4 piece bonuses
Daedric Trickery? Gotta roll that dice for major protection
Steadfast Hero? Very close but not as reliable
Aetherial Ascension? VERY big penalty
Spectre's eye? Incap strike sends its regards
Anything with shields and health recovery? Those are old news now

See the situation? Most of the competitors are either, conditional, inconsistent, have very long cooldown or outright penalizing effectively making them either suck or making you play for half the time without the all important 5 piece bonus. When you compare this to Pariah which is always there for you, no questions asked, no cd, no hidden malus, no penalties, you will realize why Pariah is so popular even when its 5 piece bonus should be potentially weaker against lots of the sets I mentioned. You may nerf Pariah's bonus by 20% and people will still run it because it is that reliable.
This, plus the fact that youtubers love Pariah because it is not only reliable but also enables them to put those fake (1% health) 40k resistances on their thumbnails.

TLDR: Pariah isn't op, its competitors just suck hard. No nerfs needed here, only buffs for other sets.

You want solution to tank meta?
Go back with bleed damage to ignore armor. You will just have to deal all other mitigations.
Or make Oblivion damage to scale with target resistances and add more sources of it beside enchantment.

Pariah was as strong as it is now since it was released, but players still preferred other sets until ZOS nerfed them witb blackwood. Eternal Vigor, alessian armour, orgnums scales and crimson twilight were used more often than pariah but they were all nerfed. Cyrodiils crest and Battailon defender are also not worth it anymore for players that dont have 44k hp.
New cp system and battle spirit reduction have increased received damage a lot. you have to use pariah to get as tanky as you were before without.
It is not pariah that forces players to build tanky, it is the high damage. Pariah is only a Solution to compensate this. If you take it away players will still be forced to build tanky. they will just have less options to do this.
In update 24 there was a low damage meta and people build completely for damage to compensate this. If damage gets lower next patch people dont have to wear pariah anymore because they can survive without and they will probably build for more damage to compensate higher battle spirit mitigation.

So the only thing that makes vamps still worth using in pve should be nerfed cause pvp.... there are ways to deal with tanky characters without constantly asking for everything to be nerfed