No proc campaign unwarranted?

relentless_turnip · July 2021

I think the no proc test was initially popular as it offered some overdue respite from a long and borderline toxic proc meta. Im not sure a no proc campaign was ever warranted, but I think zos captured peoples initial reactions to not having to fight procs any more.
Besides that on pc EU especially, ravenwatch is the most popular campaign and most people I've spoken to view this change negatively.

Whilst I praise the developers for trying to give the player base what they thought they wanted. I don't think this is it and feel the campaign chosen only really considered the American servers campaigns of choice.

This is just my opinion though, I would love to hear everyone else's?

Thraben · July 2021

I agree that with the new proc set calculation, a Non-Procset Cyro is no longer really needed. This is my personal view, though,. If I would ask my guild members again, only 60% or so would still be in support of this change, down from about 90% in March. Their main argument would be: "This was the 4th prococalypse since 2015 (and the worst). Yes, things are under control now, but the next one will come one day. So it's better to get out of this cycle completely."

Additionally, the arguments:

1) NoProc NoCP Cyro is the logical choice because it's better for newer players than NoCP or NoProc alone
2) Multiple NoProc campaigns would dilute the playerbase

are rather reasonable, and I haven't heard good counter arguments yet.

neferpitou73 · July 2021

No-proc isn’t as popular as the forum likes to believe. And nowhere near popular enough to cannibalize an active campaign.

Especially since we now have two cp proc campaigns (one of which isn’t played that much to my knowledge) and no proc enabled no cp campaign

Amottica · July 2021

I think it being warranted or not is a matter of opinion/perspective. Nothing more or nothing less. It is no different than some desiring CP or no-CP and faction locks or not.

One thing I’ve noticed in my several months here is players have varying and competing interests and that has seemed evident in the discussions concerning procs sets in PvP.

In the end, we will see how popular the no-proc campaign will be. It didn’t need to be full to be a success, just reasonably active.

lucky_Sage · July 2021

No proc cyro wouldn’t be bad but they remove the stat based procs which is stupid people never co plain about bsw new moon furry clever ravager etc.

YandereGirlfriend · July 2021

Amottica wrote: »

I think it being warranted or not is a matter of opinion/perspective. Nothing more or nothing less. It is no different than some desiring CP or no-CP and faction locks or not.

One thing I’ve noticed in my several months here is players have varying and competing interests and that has seemed evident in the discussions concerning procs sets in PvP.

In the end, we will see how popular the no-proc campaign will be. It didn’t need to be full to be a success, just reasonably active.

Eh, that's a fine way to look at things when you have no actual skin in the game.

Ravenwatch players are losing their way of life for the purpose of an experiment. Even if the campaign ends in unpopulated disaster and gets reverted, Ravenwatch players will have lost their preferred ruleset for yet another 3 months, which will stack with the previous 4 months that we endured earlier (along with everyone else).

That's more than 50% of the entire year devoted to chasing essentially a Fidget Spinner, flavor-of-the-month fad concocted by outside "content creators" and boosted by their handful of adoring fans on the forums.

What's more likely, however, is that we never get our campaign back and Ravenwatch players are forced to either move to another campaign or leave the game entirely.

neferpitou73 · July 2021

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I think it being warranted or not is a matter of opinion/perspective. Nothing more or nothing less. It is no different than some desiring CP or no-CP and faction locks or not.

One thing I’ve noticed in my several months here is players have varying and competing interests and that has seemed evident in the discussions concerning procs sets in PvP.

In the end, we will see how popular the no-proc campaign will be. It didn’t need to be full to be a success, just reasonably active.

Eh, that's a fine way to look at things when you have no actual skin in the game.

Ravenwatch players are losing their way of life for the purpose of an experiment. Even if the campaign ends in unpopulated disaster and gets reverted, Ravenwatch players will have lost their preferred ruleset for yet another 3 months, which will stack with the previous 4 months that we endured earlier (along with everyone else).

That's more than 50% of the entire year devoted to chasing essentially a Fidget Spinner, flavor-of-the-month fad concocted by outside "content creators" and boosted by their handful of adoring fans on the forums.

What's more likely, however, is that we never get our campaign back and Ravenwatch players are forced to either move to another campaign or leave the game entirely.

You forgot the 2 months we lost to the "Hey Guys AOE skills are totally causing all the lag and we should just totally remove them!" tests.

So we have the 2month AOE test + 4month no-proc "test" + 3month no-proc "campaign" (as if anyone is going to play it)=9months of testing in Cyrodiil the past year!

And are we any closer to PVP balance? Can anyone honestly tell me they think this no-proc campaign can fix what's wrong with Cyrodiil

ZOS please stop trying to fix Cyrodiil. You're just making it worse. If you guys promised to never touch anything Cyrodiil related ever again I would consider it a win.

blktauna · July 2021

Make a no cp/no proc campaign and let the vocal minority go there. Leave the rest of us to our game.

VaranisArano · July 2021

My philosophy is pretty simple: give us six campaigns:

CP, proc, alliance locked
CP, no proc, alliance locked
CP, proc, standard
CP, no proc standard

No CP, proc
No CP, no proc

Let it go for six months, and if a campaign is dead as a doornail at the end, remove it.

Yes, I'm aware that players will abuse the dead campaign(s) to farm AP and Emperorships for six months, but that's a price I'm willing to pay for everyone to get a fair shot at populating the campaign with the gameplay they want.

Amottica · July 2021

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I think it being warranted or not is a matter of opinion/perspective. Nothing more or nothing less. It is no different than some desiring CP or no-CP and faction locks or not.

One thing I’ve noticed in my several months here is players have varying and competing interests and that has seemed evident in the discussions concerning procs sets in PvP.

In the end, we will see how popular the no-proc campaign will be. It didn’t need to be full to be a success, just reasonably active.

Eh, that's a fine way to look at things when you have no actual skin in the game.

Ravenwatch players are losing their way of life for the purpose of an experiment. Even if the campaign ends in unpopulated disaster and gets reverted, Ravenwatch players will have lost their preferred ruleset for yet another 3 months, which will stack with the previous 4 months that we endured earlier (along with everyone else).

That's more than 50% of the entire year devoted to chasing essentially a Fidget Spinner, flavor-of-the-month fad concocted by outside "content creators" and boosted by their handful of adoring fans on the forums.

What's more likely, however, is that we never get our campaign back and Ravenwatch players are forced to either move to another campaign or leave the game entirely.

I seem to be missing the point as you seem to be describing the status quo in ESO, especially Cyrodiil. How many changes have been made to campaigns during the past year, some durations for a couple of weeks while others for months? Please explain what its new here?

Amottica · July 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

My philosophy is pretty simple: give us six campaigns:

CP, proc, alliance locked
CP, no proc, alliance locked
CP, proc, standard
CP, no proc standard

No CP, proc
No CP, no proc

Let it go for six months, and if a campaign is dead as a doornail at the end, remove it.

Yes, I'm aware that players will abuse the dead campaign(s) to farm AP and Emperorships for six months, but that's a price I'm willing to pay for everyone to get a fair shot at populating the campaign with the gameplay they want.

You seem to be missing two campaigns.

No CP, proc, alliance locked
No CP, no proc standard

I think we need to consider a set of campaigns using the old CP as well. This was intended to add a little humor.

EF321 · July 2021

Definitely don't take away the only No cp campaign, that happens to be the only populated campaign on PCEU.

I bought all this golden PvP jewelry from golden vendor. All the pvp sets are proc sets, including newest coming anti-ball sets. Where do I use these sets once you take away my campaign from me? One campaign is locked to 1/3 of my characters only, the other one is severely underpopulated at all times.

I like theorycrafting and coming up with fun ideas, and ideas keep coming. I don't come to Cyrodiil to show off my running around rock/farm tower skills. That's not for me.

neferpitou73 · July 2021

Amottica wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I think it being warranted or not is a matter of opinion/perspective. Nothing more or nothing less. It is no different than some desiring CP or no-CP and faction locks or not.

One thing I’ve noticed in my several months here is players have varying and competing interests and that has seemed evident in the discussions concerning procs sets in PvP.

In the end, we will see how popular the no-proc campaign will be. It didn’t need to be full to be a success, just reasonably active.

Eh, that's a fine way to look at things when you have no actual skin in the game.

Ravenwatch players are losing their way of life for the purpose of an experiment. Even if the campaign ends in unpopulated disaster and gets reverted, Ravenwatch players will have lost their preferred ruleset for yet another 3 months, which will stack with the previous 4 months that we endured earlier (along with everyone else).

That's more than 50% of the entire year devoted to chasing essentially a Fidget Spinner, flavor-of-the-month fad concocted by outside "content creators" and boosted by their handful of adoring fans on the forums.

What's more likely, however, is that we never get our campaign back and Ravenwatch players are forced to either move to another campaign or leave the game entirely.

I seem to be missing the point as you seem to be describing the status quo in ESO, especially Cyrodiil. How many changes have been made to campaigns during the past year, some durations for a couple of weeks while others for months? Please explain what its new here?

They've literally taken away 6months of normal play for "testing." We're not just talking crazy changes in the meta usual ESO ZOS stuff. We're talking "you can't use half your skills or sets because we can't fix our own game." That's by definition not status quo. I long for the days when I simply had to change a few skills or sets for a new meta. Instead of throwing out literally every set I grinded.

oterWitz · July 2021

Thraben wrote: »

Additionally, the arguments:

1) NoProc NoCP Cyro is the logical choice because it's better for newer players than NoCP or NoProc alone
2) Multiple NoProc campaigns would dilute the playerbase

are rather reasonable, and I haven't heard good counter arguments yet.

I just wanted to say that I agreed with the point about NoProc/NoCp being freindlier for new players when I first read this post, but then I remembered the couple of times I went into Cyro for transmutes during the last no proc test. Even as someone who tries to be informed about what's going on in the game, there were numerous times when my armor was useless because I wasn't wearing one of the few sets that ZoS allowed, either because I forgot to change when entering Cyro or because something I though would be OK wasn't on the list when I actually hunted it down on the forums.

Even though the list of allowed sets is expanded now, there are still going to be plenty of new and casual players running around essentially naked unless there's a clear in-game message about which sets work or don't.

Thraben · July 2021

There is a difference between "naked" and having the 5th set bonus deactivated. I was running around in rattlecage and was doing fine. The large culprits here are full divine light armor and the like. Something they actually tried to fix by giving people a base crit defense.

Ignorance is always a problem and one has to live with it. The sets are not even the worst thing here. Almost all "Ball groups are evil" threads would instantly disappear if people would be forced to run a tutorial that tells them how to deal with them. Alas, this will never happen.

Speaking of which:

EF321 wrote: »

including newest coming anti-ball sets.

is a viable argument. Stamina classes have only VERY limited options against ball groups in a NoProc environment. On the other hand, how many people have actually used the existing stamina proc sets that were directed against ball groups? Far too few.

VaranisArano · July 2021

Amottica wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

My philosophy is pretty simple: give us six campaigns:

CP, proc, alliance locked
CP, no proc, alliance locked
CP, proc, standard
CP, no proc standard

No CP, proc
No CP, no proc

Let it go for six months, and if a campaign is dead as a doornail at the end, remove it.

Yes, I'm aware that players will abuse the dead campaign(s) to farm AP and Emperorships for six months, but that's a price I'm willing to pay for everyone to get a fair shot at populating the campaign with the gameplay they want.

You seem to be missing two campaigns.

No CP, proc, alliance locked
No CP, no proc standard

I think we need to consider a set of campaigns using the old CP as well. This was intended to add a little humor.

Heh, sure, we could add lots of variations. I'm sure at least some players would be up for "Tamriel Classic" with no Wardens or Necros!

(I didn't worry about alliance locked for CP just because it looks like ZOS has made up their mind there, but if you think it needs another look, go for it!)

TequilaFire · July 2021

Once you open the Pandora's box of CP/NOCP, Proc/No Proc, PvE/PVP - you create nightmare to balance.

Joy_Division · July 2021

Amottica wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I think it being warranted or not is a matter of opinion/perspective. Nothing more or nothing less. It is no different than some desiring CP or no-CP and faction locks or not.

One thing I’ve noticed in my several months here is players have varying and competing interests and that has seemed evident in the discussions concerning procs sets in PvP.

In the end, we will see how popular the no-proc campaign will be. It didn’t need to be full to be a success, just reasonably active.

Eh, that's a fine way to look at things when you have no actual skin in the game.

Ravenwatch players are losing their way of life for the purpose of an experiment. Even if the campaign ends in unpopulated disaster and gets reverted, Ravenwatch players will have lost their preferred ruleset for yet another 3 months, which will stack with the previous 4 months that we endured earlier (along with everyone else).

That's more than 50% of the entire year devoted to chasing essentially a Fidget Spinner, flavor-of-the-month fad concocted by outside "content creators" and boosted by their handful of adoring fans on the forums.

What's more likely, however, is that we never get our campaign back and Ravenwatch players are forced to either move to another campaign or leave the game entirely.

I seem to be missing the point as you seem to be describing the status quo in ESO, especially Cyrodiil. How many changes have been made to campaigns during the past year, some durations for a couple of weeks while others for months? Please explain what its new here?

That's the point. Way too many changes (or rather questionable experiments) have been made that have dulled even the hardcore customer's enthusiasm for playing.

Have you noticed for the past two years, the only changes ZOS have attempted have, each and every one, been incredibly divisive in upsetting a large portion of the community (even if another part likes them). That is crazy. Updates/reforms/changes/etc. ideally are embraced by a vast majority of players unequivocally as they see how they would improve the game. This is how games "develop" and "progress" and "upgrade" over time.

But that's not happening here because none of ZOS's many changes have actually added anything to the game. Rather all of them are restrictive and remove things we used to be able to do. You can;t group with more than 12, you can;t heal people outside you group, you can't wear this piece of gear, etc., Can't. Can't. can't. What an odd way of improving a game or making it more enticing: instead of augmenting our base game and expanding what you can do as a player, they instead only going to take things away.

Sandman929 · July 2021

I loved the no proc months initially, but it got a little stale towards the end. The inclusion of so many more sets is certainly welcome and I'll probably spend some time in the no-proc no-cp campaigns, but I don't think they'll be popular.
A couple of problems I see are:
1) Even after months of no-proc, I would run into people who still didn't know that the set they were wearing wasn't working. Not everyone reads or does any research at all into their video games. In fact, I'd say the vast majority don't. Some might have friends that clue them in quickly, but many don't, so when the game has sets available and certain zone restrictions that would require research on the part of the casual player, the casual player isn't going to bother and it just serves to annoy them when they learn that they aren't in-line with some weird zone restriction.
2) Any campaign not viewed as the "main" campaign will be dead as disco in off-peak hours, which means it will likely be gated by whichever faction has a few players with time on their hands in off-peak hours, which means it will be a turn off for anyone who isn't interested in dominating the NPCs or starting from their gates every evening.

dcam86b14_ESO · July 2021

IMO the no proc cyro was the best time I had doing pvp in 7 years. now that the hammer is going to be disabled as well, oh man I am excited.

Amottica · July 2021

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I think it being warranted or not is a matter of opinion/perspective. Nothing more or nothing less. It is no different than some desiring CP or no-CP and faction locks or not.

One thing I’ve noticed in my several months here is players have varying and competing interests and that has seemed evident in the discussions concerning procs sets in PvP.

In the end, we will see how popular the no-proc campaign will be. It didn’t need to be full to be a success, just reasonably active.

Eh, that's a fine way to look at things when you have no actual skin in the game.

Ravenwatch players are losing their way of life for the purpose of an experiment. Even if the campaign ends in unpopulated disaster and gets reverted, Ravenwatch players will have lost their preferred ruleset for yet another 3 months, which will stack with the previous 4 months that we endured earlier (along with everyone else).

That's more than 50% of the entire year devoted to chasing essentially a Fidget Spinner, flavor-of-the-month fad concocted by outside "content creators" and boosted by their handful of adoring fans on the forums.

What's more likely, however, is that we never get our campaign back and Ravenwatch players are forced to either move to another campaign or leave the game entirely.

I seem to be missing the point as you seem to be describing the status quo in ESO, especially Cyrodiil. How many changes have been made to campaigns during the past year, some durations for a couple of weeks while others for months? Please explain what its new here?

They've literally taken away 6months of normal play for "testing." We're not just talking crazy changes in the meta usual ESO ZOS stuff. We're talking "you can't use half your skills or sets because we can't fix our own game." That's by definition not status quo. I long for the days when I simply had to change a few skills or sets for a new meta. Instead of throwing out literally every set I grinded.

My point was that Zenimax keeps changing things between the tests and the no-proc moratorium. As such constant changes is the status quo.

Fennwitty · July 2021

I would absolutely like to see a 'reduced proc' campaign.

If it's not doable to have a dedicated no/reduced proc campaign of its own without cannibalizing one of the normal campaigns -- then maybe a time share? Every two weeks or month, a particular campaign alternates rulesets.

That may keep some of the joy people had from no proc without eliminating procs.

Though more than that I would prefer proc sets be tuned for PvP differently than PvE.

neferpitou73 · July 2021

Amottica wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I think it being warranted or not is a matter of opinion/perspective. Nothing more or nothing less. It is no different than some desiring CP or no-CP and faction locks or not.

One thing I’ve noticed in my several months here is players have varying and competing interests and that has seemed evident in the discussions concerning procs sets in PvP.

In the end, we will see how popular the no-proc campaign will be. It didn’t need to be full to be a success, just reasonably active.

Eh, that's a fine way to look at things when you have no actual skin in the game.

Ravenwatch players are losing their way of life for the purpose of an experiment. Even if the campaign ends in unpopulated disaster and gets reverted, Ravenwatch players will have lost their preferred ruleset for yet another 3 months, which will stack with the previous 4 months that we endured earlier (along with everyone else).

That's more than 50% of the entire year devoted to chasing essentially a Fidget Spinner, flavor-of-the-month fad concocted by outside "content creators" and boosted by their handful of adoring fans on the forums.

What's more likely, however, is that we never get our campaign back and Ravenwatch players are forced to either move to another campaign or leave the game entirely.

I seem to be missing the point as you seem to be describing the status quo in ESO, especially Cyrodiil. How many changes have been made to campaigns during the past year, some durations for a couple of weeks while others for months? Please explain what its new here?

They've literally taken away 6months of normal play for "testing." We're not just talking crazy changes in the meta usual ESO ZOS stuff. We're talking "you can't use half your skills or sets because we can't fix our own game." That's by definition not status quo. I long for the days when I simply had to change a few skills or sets for a new meta. Instead of throwing out literally every set I grinded.

My point was that Zenimax keeps changing things between the tests and the no-proc moratorium. As such constant changes is the status quo.

No it’s not. I’ve been playing for 3years and this insane test mania has only been going on the past year. ZOS has treated pvp like a beta test for the past 9months. That’s not normal behavior nor is it respectful to their customers. As a result they’ve driven off many of their hardcore players.

If they stopped touching pvp I think everyone would be happier

Atrael7 · July 2021

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I think the no proc test was initially popular as it offered some overdue respite from a long and borderline toxic proc meta. Im not sure a no proc campaign was ever warranted, but I think zos captured peoples initial reactions to not having to fight procs any more.

This. 6 months ago you'd pretty much have recaps with nothing but procs in them. Things have changed since then - this patch they added the proc scaling, which is still a bit off (reaching 6,5k spell damage vs 6,5k weapon damage is unrealistic and should be further adjusted as stam has an easier time stacking that damage), but nonetheless, procs are nowhere near as dominant anymore. If you want to run procs now you kinda have to make them an actual focus in your build to have good tooltips on 'em, not just slap 2 defensive sets and kill with procs anyway like you could in the past.

So it feels like they put in the groundwork needed to tone down the thing everyone was complaining about, and instead of building on that now with further fine tuning of the scaling numbers, they come in with the no proc campaign again after the fact because people were tired of procs months ago and overreacted with positive feedback when they heard no proc campaigns in Cyrodiil for 6 months. Then by the end of patch 29 everyone was bored out of their minds cause they could use the same few sets, and there was no reigning in the zergs because there was nothing to counter them. We're going back to that, it seems - VD is off again, the new anti-zerg sets ain't gonna be there either.

Just ask yourself, how many threads have you seen praising the return of no proc since the 7.1.0 patch notes hit?

NeillMcAttack · July 2021

Out of every server, Ravenwatch EU is the most popular to PvP on, from what I can tell.

It should not be used for ZOS' experiment. I don't disagree with the intent, and I feel it would be somewhat popular tbh, popular enough to continue on with it's implementation, but not at the expense of Ravenwatch.

Move it to the 'standard' campaign. The least popular campaign on all servers. This way ZOS will also be able to better gauge it's popularity. And also, don't ruin the no-cp IC also. I do not want to be required to have multiple different builds ready dependent on where I choose to PvP.

zrazmab16_ESO · July 2021

So, does all Imperial City campaigns will be No proc or just Imperial City No Cp campaign will be no proc?

Djiku · July 2021

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Out of every server, Ravenwatch EU is the most popular to PvP on, from what I can tell.

It should not be used for ZOS' experiment. I don't disagree with the intent, and I feel it would be somewhat popular tbh, popular enough to continue on with it's implementation, but not at the expense of Ravenwatch.

Move it to the 'standard' campaign. The least popular campaign on all servers. This way ZOS will also be able to better gauge it's popularity. And also, don't ruin the no-cp IC also. I do not want to be required to have multiple different builds ready dependent on where I choose to PvP.

Introducing No-Proc to the only No-CP campaign ist just a bad move. Leaving the players that prefer No-CP without choice. I would also welcome it if they would use the No-Proc ruleset for the 'standard' campaign, if they have to.

LarsS · July 2021

The prefered campaign, is not only about game mode, its propbaly to a larger extent about were the people is. On PC EU, Gray Host was the most populated campaign one year ago, but for various reasons, toxity among them, DC players started to migrate to Ravenwatch, in the end we did it to becuse Gray Host were empty on the DC side except for a few prime time hours. From the information I have it seems that a number of guilds will stay on Raven, not necessarily because they like the changes but because its the only campaign on PC EU which is active 24/7.

gariondavey · July 2021

The issue is no cp and cp are too different, so they mess one of them up trying to balance an aspect of the other. And then they try include procs or no procs and it is just a mess