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Necromancers are overperforming
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Waseem✭✭✭✭✭
✭There is no issues of the nerfs to affect PvE.
nobody will commit suicide if a dungeon/trial takes 30 seconds extra to finish.4 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭What I don’t get is why Tombstones?
That’s just very cartoonish.
Why not something like necromantic crystals - tying themes with the Ideal Masters.
But just summoning tombstones? Really?4 -
francesinhalover✭✭✭✭✭
✭Two years have passed since necromancers have been added to the game and have done the best they could to make combat feel just as bad as their class design.
At first this was more or less a stamina necromancer issue only, the magicka counterpart lacked offensive presence but still managed to ruin your day by being more tanky than any other spec in the game.
Stamnecro of course had major defile spreading homing missiles, access to major protection on a regular skill and inherited the rest of necromancers overtuned defensive options.
For almost one and a half years fighting a stamina necromancer ment that either no one would die or the person not playing necro would die, the spec was blatantly op.
Fighting a magnecro ment that the only way the fight could end was a sudden heart attack of one of the combatants.
Then during the "Dark Heart of Skyrim" the devs unleashed a harrowstorm of proc into the game that made magnecro from one day to another an incredibly threatening spec that abused full damage builds while still being more tanky than any other class could have ever dreamed about.
With changes to major and minor buffs the extraordinary power of necromancers took a hit, major protection wasn't as overperforming as it has been for ages and major defile didn't allow you to be a death bringing machine without any offensive investment.
But then the CP 2.0 system was introduced and along with it every character got a free 1000 weapon and spell damage bonus.
Those changes resulted in 2 things first of all, everyone lost loads of mitigation while damage stayed relatively high.
And here comes the catch, Necromancers have such high mitigation from the get go that they're now once again defensive overlords compared to any other spec in the game, the free 1000 damage have furthered those issues as the three most overpowered skills necromancers have access to (blastbones, Mender and mortal coil) all have an amazing scaling with weapon and spell damage, additionally % damage buffs like the previously laughably weak buff from stalking blastbones don't get watered down by multiplicative damage buffs from the old CP system.
To sum this paragraph up in one sentence: Everyone lost mitigation while necromancers kept enough mitigation to survive and gained enough damage to be an extreme threat.
Deciding which class to play has yet again be reduced to the question: Do you want to be as powerful as you want and if you do, do you want to be a magicka or stamina necromancer?
The worst part about this whole situation is that necromancer is the worst designed class in the entire game, there is no gameplay design behind it as the class is Frankenstein's monster build with a few overperforming skills and buffs that are sewn together with horribly bad skills that have no place in the game.
The overperforming skills I'm talking about are of course blastbones, Spirit mender and healing tether, necrotic potency, along with bone goliath as an overperforming ultimate and passives like disdain harm, rapid rot, buff wise necromancers are the only class with access to major vulnerability.
Other passives like undead Confederate or corpse consumption are also stronger than the equivalents of other classes.
Other skills like scythe, skulls, grave grasp, totem are horribly weak compared to other skills.
This leads to necromancers using the same skills with no variance at all as even picking a single of those skills means a huge loss im efficiency.
The only way to make necromancer actually balanced and fun to play is a complete rework of the class that frees it from the bane of being forced to have 1 defensive, 1 offensive and 1 healing skill line, while also establishing a whole new gameplay design for the class that completely differs from the rest of all other classes.
Until that happens please delete Necromancers from the game.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/alliance-war
Also, it's legit toxic to wish for a class to be removed from a game played by thousands.I am @fluffypallascat pc eu if someone wants to play together
Shadow strike is the best cp passive ever!6 -
amm7sb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭There is no issues of the nerfs to affect PvE.
nobody will commit suicide if a dungeon/trial takes 30 seconds extra to finish.
You'd be surprised.
I had someone leave a smooth run of vet Unhallowed Grave on my guild group last night (PUG'd the 4th) because as a Warden tank, I was running forest ult for self heals instead of War Horn.
If runs aren't going exactly according to script, and they don't get to micromanage the builds of everyone else, there are plenty of people who will freak out about mundane stuff in this game.6 -
amm7sb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭What I don’t get is why Tombstones?
That’s just very cartoonish.
Why not something like necromantic crystals - tying themes with the Ideal Masters.
But just summoning tombstones? Really?
I agree.
I do really like the general aesthetic of the Necromancer class, and some of it is very well done imo
But some of it is just tacky... like the tombstones.2 -
Red99✭✭✭Knockmaker wrote: »Knockmaker wrote: »Knockmaker wrote: »I disagree. If the blastbones wasn't this clunky and worked properly, I would have agreed that it might be slightly more advantageous in some aspects, but in this state. It does fine. I have been playing pvp for quite a while now and lately I haven't seen any particular necromancer that couldn't be killed by 2 good players and is both tanky and deals crazy damage. I disagree that is is OP and also I am against any more "pls nerf this and that" suggestions.
so necro is fine because it only needs 2 good players to be killed?
If it wasn't clear enough for you, I was obviously referring to OP players on necro classes. You can tweeze a couple of words from an entire paragraph as much as you want, but it is not gonna change the fact that even the most troll/tanky necro builds are killable. And same goes with other classes as well. Depending on your play style, you can make a tanky/troll build from necros/dragonknights/wardens and even templars too. Even then, if they are not back up by their teammates, you can still kill them. It is not a matter of necro being OP, it is just the way things are atm (not defending tanky/troll builds, but given with the right setup, it is possible. Maybe a further tuning of gears might address this, tho it isn't as bad as it was before proc sets were readjusted).
Also, try playing a necro and using Blastbones. Then let us know how frustrating it is because it usually doesn't do its job. Let them fix things first, then let's see how every class performs, and then if there is a need, they can focus on balancing things.
But with they way things are, it is a no no for any nerfs.
so you're saying that because you can gang up 20v1 on a necro, it is therefore not broken?
blastbones isn't worse than any other skills in the game. it has its *** ups in lag, but it works fine enough outside of prime time. just like every other class.
If you are making such allegations, show us an up-to-date video of a necro in cyrodiil that straight up faces and gangs up 20 ppl alone, and I promise you that I will delete my account. I am not talking about tanky builds who troll people around (usually in towers), use environment to their advantage and maybe kill a few squishy players before getting killed eventually. You can do this with other classes as well. In fact, it is common with wardens nowadays. There is no single build or person who can straight up attack 20 players and "gang" them up on their own. Alternatively, you can show us a video of a necro getting ganked by 20 players, not die and kill the attackers alone. Same thing. There is no such thing. There are several builds out there that can match a necro. Thus, this whole suggestion is a "nerf this and that" request in a fancy package.
Next patch with the new battle spirit, new dmg reduction cps and revelling flare slotted (major protection) a stamnecro will be able to tank 20 ppl without using troll buildEdited by Red99 on July 13, 2021 7:32AM3 -
clearly✭✭✭Knockmaker wrote: »Knockmaker wrote: »Knockmaker wrote: »Knockmaker wrote: »Knockmaker wrote: »I disagree. If the blastbones wasn't this clunky and worked properly, I would have agreed that it might be slightly more advantageous in some aspects, but in this state. It does fine. I have been playing pvp for quite a while now and lately I haven't seen any particular necromancer that couldn't be killed by 2 good players and is both tanky and deals crazy damage. I disagree that is is OP and also I am against any more "pls nerf this and that" suggestions.
so necro is fine because it only needs 2 good players to be killed?
If it wasn't clear enough for you, I was obviously referring to OP players on necro classes. You can tweeze a couple of words from an entire paragraph as much as you want, but it is not gonna change the fact that even the most troll/tanky necro builds are killable. And same goes with other classes as well. Depending on your play style, you can make a tanky/troll build from necros/dragonknights/wardens and even templars too. Even then, if they are not back up by their teammates, you can still kill them. It is not a matter of necro being OP, it is just the way things are atm (not defending tanky/troll builds, but given with the right setup, it is possible. Maybe a further tuning of gears might address this, tho it isn't as bad as it was before proc sets were readjusted).
Also, try playing a necro and using Blastbones. Then let us know how frustrating it is because it usually doesn't do its job. Let them fix things first, then let's see how every class performs, and then if there is a need, they can focus on balancing things.
But with they way things are, it is a no no for any nerfs.
so you're saying that because you can gang up 20v1 on a necro, it is therefore not broken?
blastbones isn't worse than any other skills in the game. it has its *** ups in lag, but it works fine enough outside of prime time. just like every other class.
If you are making such allegations, show us an up-to-date video of a necro in cyrodiil that straight up faces and gangs up 20 ppl alone, and I promise you that I will delete my account. I am not talking about tanky builds who troll people around (usually in towers), use environment to their advantage and maybe kill a few squishy players before getting killed eventually. You can do this with other classes as well. In fact, it is common with wardens nowadays. There is no single build or person who can straight up attack 20 players and "gang" them up on their own. Alternatively, you can show us a video of a necro getting ganked by 20 players, not die and kill the attackers alone. Same thing. There is no such thing. There are several builds out there that can match a necro. Thus, this whole suggestion is a "nerf this and that" request in a fancy package.
Read his post again he never said necro will ever get a 1v20.
He said that your argument about necro being balanced because you can zerg it down is bad.
If you have to zerg down regular non tank builds and have no chance of killing them otherwise there's a balance issue.
Did you read my post? I told him to show us a video of either scenario. Your claims are empty until you prove it with a video of a necro killing 20 ppl in a 20v1 against a necro, or vice versa, or any video a necro just walks away from a 20v1fight without any efforts or without just running away, using environment to his advantage and kill 1-2 players while doing so before eventually getting killed or escapes. There is a clear 20v1 allegation and naturally one is supposed to prove it. Otherwise, we don't need populist discourses here with an intention of rallying people on unfounded grounds. Furthermore, I repeat what I said about necro being perfectly killable, in fact, more so than wardens nowadays. Do you see me make allegations about 20v1 with wardens? Granted, necro can be a little more tanky, but that doesn't mean it is tanky and can kill everyone in its path at the same time. If a person chooses to play a tanky troll build, it is his choice and if you can't kill him alone, you move on and ignore the troll. Just because he is able to kill 1-2 players who are alone doesn't make him a tank build with crazy damage. I think you need to be aware of this distinction before you make such claims. If you remember when templars had ranged execute ability and literally 80% of players were running templars in Cyrodiil, that is what a true "overpowered/unbalanced" class is.
I would have believed in your sincerity and accuracy in your suggestion if you had proposed that necro should have been fine-tuned a little further and be given more class identity. But in this state of your suggestion as it is, this is still a "nerf this/nerf that" request.
You should strive for making suggestions to improve things, not pull certain things -or classes in this case- down.
You still haven't understood what he has written.
"so you're saying that because you can gang up 20v1 on a necro, it is therefore not broken?"
This doesn't mean that he claims that necro can take on 20 people, he says explicitly that necros will die in that situation.
[snip]
This could have been a civil, and even a fruitful discussion if you hadn't picked my words, commented on a certain part of what I said and not ignored the rest where I actually included other scenarios/outcomes which all lead to same thing. But you chose ad hominem. Very well, carry on. Good luck!
[edited to remove quote]
[snip]
at no point i have claimed necromancer can pull off a 1v20. [snip] You're the one claiming necromancer is fine, where is your evidence?
your reasoning seems to be that you can simply bring more players to kill one (1) necromancer. you obviously have never touched pvp other than from the inside of a 20 man zerg and does not adress the cases when the necromancer(s) is (are) severely outnumbered.
[snip]
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 13, 2021 11:24AM5 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
If you're failing those the issue isn't on necro but rather the person playing it
That is why Godslayer is such an easy title to get, I suppose. Because dps and survivability don’t matter. /sarcasm
How about this, if necros are so good in PvP, then go play a necro and leave everyone else alone.
6 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
If you're failing those the issue isn't on necro but rather the person playing it
That is why Godslayer is such an easy title to get, I suppose. Because dps and survivability don’t matter. /sarcasm
How about this, if necros are so good in PvP, then go play a necro and leave everyone else alone.
I have shown that I'm already playing necro but it's not a fun class to play and it's not fun being forced to use it in order to be on even ground with other necros1 -
amm7sb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭
If you're failing those the issue isn't on necro but rather the person playing it
That is why Godslayer is such an easy title to get, I suppose. Because dps and survivability don’t matter. /sarcasm
How about this, if necros are so good in PvP, then go play a necro and leave everyone else alone.
I have shown that I'm already playing necro but it's not a fun class to play and it's not fun being forced to use it in order to be on even ground with other necros
1. I play a Necro as my main, and find it very fun. So no changes needed.
2. When I am playing my non-Necros, I don't feel disadvantaged when playing against enemy Necros. So no changes needed.5 -
clearly✭✭✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
If you're failing those the issue isn't on necro but rather the person playing it
That is why Godslayer is such an easy title to get, I suppose. Because dps and survivability don’t matter. /sarcasm
How about this, if necros are so good in PvP, then go play a necro and leave everyone else alone.
I have shown that I'm already playing necro but it's not a fun class to play and it's not fun being forced to use it in order to be on even ground with other necros
1. I play a Necro as my main, and find it very fun. So no changes needed.
2. When I am playing my non-Necros, I don't feel disadvantaged when playing against enemy Necros. So no changes needed.
because a forum random that has yet to show any form of gameplay or evidence that they know what they're talking about is enough feedback when it comes to making balance decisions; especially when the opinions are the opposite of those shared by the people who are widely regarded as being experienced and good at the game.
care to post a few 1v1's of you playing another class against good players on necro?1 -
clearly✭✭✭
If you're failing those the issue isn't on necro but rather the person playing it
That is why Godslayer is such an easy title to get, I suppose. Because dps and survivability don’t matter. /sarcasm
How about this, if necros are so good in PvP, then go play a necro and leave everyone else alone.
and if the changes make necro so bad in pve, how about you go play another class and leave everyone else alone?0 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
If you're failing those the issue isn't on necro but rather the person playing it
That is why Godslayer is such an easy title to get, I suppose. Because dps and survivability don’t matter. /sarcasm
How about this, if necros are so good in PvP, then go play a necro and leave everyone else alone.
and if the changes make necro so bad in pve, how about you go play another class and leave everyone else alone?
Because no matter what class I would choose a pvp player will come on the forums and claim that (class TBD) are op and want to get it nerfed as well.
So what would the next class be after necro's btw? What will be the pvp players next complaint? Because even if necros do get nerfs the PVP complaints will not end here. Will it be wardens perhaps? Maybe they can go back to the old nightblade complaint days? DKs still reflecting too many arrows? It is endless.
If "Class A" is performing well in pvp, then play "Class A" or try to get classes "B, C,D, and E" up to speed. Leave PvE out of this.
"A Sorc mildly unconvinced me in cyrodiil, so they are over performing in pvp and they need nerfs." Enough!
Btw want to see a link that says necros are under performing in pvp?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/580957/skeletal-arcanist-underperforming#latest
Edited by BlueRaven on July 13, 2021 8:38PM3 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
If you're failing those the issue isn't on necro but rather the person playing it
That is why Godslayer is such an easy title to get, I suppose. Because dps and survivability don’t matter. /sarcasm
How about this, if necros are so good in PvP, then go play a necro and leave everyone else alone.
and if the changes make necro so bad in pve, how about you go play another class and leave everyone else alone?
Because no matter what class I would choose a pvp player will come on the forums and claim that (class TBD) are op and want to get it nerfed as well.
So what would the next class be after necro's btw? What will be the pvp players next complaint? Because even if necros do get nerfs the PVP complaints will not end here. Will it be wardens perhaps? Maybe they can go back to the old nightblade complaint days? DKs still reflecting too many arrows? It is endless.
If "Class A" is performing well in pvp, then play "Class A" or try to get classes "B, C,D, and E" up to speed. Leave PvE out of this.
"A Sorc mildly unconvinced me in cyrodiil, so they are over performing in pvp and they need nerfs." Enough!
Btw want to see a link that says necros are under performing in pvp?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/580957/skeletal-arcanist-underperforming#latest
There's always people complaining and defending stuff, that's why you don't listen to those who have no idea what they're talking about.
Warden and Necro are objectively overperforming and unhealthy for balance.
Someone saying Magdk, Stamdk, Magnb or
Stamplar are overperforming is either biased or bad a the game and that's why you don't listen to them because they have no proper arguments.
I laughed a little when you said the Devs should bring up all other specs in order to balance the game while leaving PvE out of the changes.
First of all its illogical and way too time-consuming to balance 5-10 other specs to match the performance of 2 specs which would require buffs across the board which will then affect PvE.
The combat team is already understaffed as hell and we've seen it for 2 years now without any meaningful class balance, having them to buff 5-10 classes is just wishful thinking.
Especially when considering the issues are worsened depending on the current meta and the underlying problems wouldn't be solved at all by only changing other specs.2 -
EmEm_Oh✭✭✭✭✭Necromancers are, by their representation, a force to be dealt with by several characters. Not one. Just wait for the ult to disappear then slam them with aoes and dots. Works every time. I think 1% of them can outheal but this is because of an inexperienced group fighting them and/or a healer that is stealthy and is not immediately visible.3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Necro and Warden are the main reasons (beside performance) why I don't want to play this game anymore tbh. While I agree that the magicka version of Necro is problematic and not healthy for the game I think it's safe to say that stamcro is the true offender in the current meta. It has the better spammable (Dizzy), one of the best executes in the game,
^ Here is the claim about execute
so you transformed "stamina necro has one of the best executes" into "necro has the best execute"? and you complain about misinformation?
Necro doesn't have an execute.
and the post you quoted does not say otherwise
The post I quoted literally says that "stam Necro has one of the best executes in the game"
and this is true. but it does not say that necromancer has an execute, nor that it has "the most powerful" execute.
It literally states that the class has an execute.
it says stamina necromancer has access to one of the best executes in the game, without precising whether it is a class execute. but keep playing stupid, its easier than finding actual arguments, right?
It said nothing about "access to". It says, directly, "has one of the best executes in the game"
You even acknowledged such in your original reply to me:clearly wrote:so you transformed "stamina necro has one of the best executes" into "necro has the best execute"? and you complain about misinformation?
Having access is the same thing as having a skill.
If you can use it you have it.
You're basing the whole argument on semantics.
Stamnecro can use executioner ---> has one of the best executes in the game.
^ *EVERY* stamina class can use that skill, tho. Or more specifically, every 2-hand user. Dual wield does not have access to that skill. It is not a Necromancer skill, therefore cannot be used to indicate that Necromancer is overtuned.
It's not semantics. A claim was made, that Necromancers have one of the best executes in the game.
Necromancer does not have an execute.
You originally replied first to say that the claim was never made. Now that I am showing you that it was, you are changing the argument to say that Necromancers have access to a non-class skill. You are moving the goalposts.
And with that, I have no desire to continue spinning our wheels going around in circles. I 100% disagree with your premise, and have stated why.
Because that claim was never made. The claim was always: "stamina necro has one of the best executes and nothing else and this is factually true.
It is factually false. 'Stamina necro has" indicates that the execute belongs to the Stamina necro. As there is no execute available in the necromancer skill line, that is false.
The line was NOT "has access to", but rather "has" which indicates possession by the stamina necro class.
It may have been what was meant, but it is not what was written. It's important distinction because the post in question attributed skill lines that all stamina classes have access to as a reason why Wardens and Necros should be nerfed, which is incorrect. Those aren't class skills and thus shouldn't be used to discuss their balance.Edited by spartaxoxo on July 14, 2021 2:54AM7 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Necro and Warden are the main reasons (beside performance) why I don't want to play this game anymore tbh. While I agree that the magicka version of Necro is problematic and not healthy for the game I think it's safe to say that stamcro is the true offender in the current meta. It has the better spammable (Dizzy), one of the best executes in the game,
^ Here is the claim about execute
so you transformed "stamina necro has one of the best executes" into "necro has the best execute"? and you complain about misinformation?
Necro doesn't have an execute.
and the post you quoted does not say otherwise
The post I quoted literally says that "stam Necro has one of the best executes in the game"
and this is true. but it does not say that necromancer has an execute, nor that it has "the most powerful" execute.
It literally states that the class has an execute.
it says stamina necromancer has access to one of the best executes in the game, without precising whether it is a class execute. but keep playing stupid, its easier than finding actual arguments, right?
It said nothing about "access to". It says, directly, "has one of the best executes in the game"
You even acknowledged such in your original reply to me:clearly wrote:so you transformed "stamina necro has one of the best executes" into "necro has the best execute"? and you complain about misinformation?
Having access is the same thing as having a skill.
If you can use it you have it.
You're basing the whole argument on semantics.
Stamnecro can use executioner ---> has one of the best executes in the game.
^ *EVERY* stamina class can use that skill, tho. Or more specifically, every 2-hand user. Dual wield does not have access to that skill. It is not a Necromancer skill, therefore cannot be used to indicate that Necromancer is overtuned.
It's not semantics. A claim was made, that Necromancers have one of the best executes in the game.
Necromancer does not have an execute.
You originally replied first to say that the claim was never made. Now that I am showing you that it was, you are changing the argument to say that Necromancers have access to a non-class skill. You are moving the goalposts.
And with that, I have no desire to continue spinning our wheels going around in circles. I 100% disagree with your premise, and have stated why.
Because that claim was never made. The claim was always: "stamina necro has one of the best executes and nothing else and this is factually true.
It is factually false. 'Stamina necro has" indicates that the execute belongs to the Stamina necro. As there is no execute available in the necromancer skill line, that is false.
The line was NOT "has access to", but rather "has" which indicates possession by the stamina necro class.
It may have been what was meant, but it is not what was written. It's important distinction because the post in question attributed skill lines that all stamina classes have access to as a reason why Wardens and Necros should be nerfed, which is incorrect. Those aren't class skills and thus shouldn't be used to discuss their balance.
You're once again discussing semantics.
In the end if you meet a stamcro he will hit you with executioner and that's why it is important to take it into account.
If you were to only look at class skills you would never get a full picture of balance and every stamina spec would just be useless because they don't have vigor, rally or DBoS in your eyes.
Next patch viability will be highly influenced by whether a spec can free up a skill slot for inner beast or not which wouldn't be allowed if we were to follow your idea.2 -
Greek_Hellspawn✭✭✭✭
If you're failing those the issue isn't on necro but rather the person playing it
That is why Godslayer is such an easy title to get, I suppose. Because dps and survivability don’t matter. /sarcasm
How about this, if necros are so good in PvP, then go play a necro and leave everyone else alone.
and if the changes make necro so bad in pve, how about you go play another class and leave everyone else alone?
Because no matter what class I would choose a pvp player will come on the forums and claim that (class TBD) are op and want to get it nerfed as well.
So what would the next class be after necro's btw? What will be the pvp players next complaint? Because even if necros do get nerfs the PVP complaints will not end here. Will it be wardens perhaps? Maybe they can go back to the old nightblade complaint days? DKs still reflecting too many arrows? It is endless.
If "Class A" is performing well in pvp, then play "Class A" or try to get classes "B, C,D, and E" up to speed. Leave PvE out of this.
"A Sorc mildly unconvinced me in cyrodiil, so they are over performing in pvp and they need nerfs." Enough!
Btw want to see a link that says necros are under performing in pvp?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/580957/skeletal-arcanist-underperforming#latest
There's always people complaining and defending stuff, that's why you don't listen to those who have no idea what they're talking about.
Warden and Necro are objectively overperforming and unhealthy for balance.
Someone saying Magdk, Stamdk, Magnb or
Stamplar are overperforming is either biased or bad a the game and that's why you don't listen to them because they have no proper arguments.
I laughed a little when you said the Devs should bring up all other specs in order to balance the game while leaving PvE out of the changes.
First of all its illogical and way too time-consuming to balance 5-10 other specs to match the performance of 2 specs which would require buffs across the board which will then affect PvE.
The combat team is already understaffed as hell and we've seen it for 2 years now without any meaningful class balance, having them to buff 5-10 classes is just wishful thinking.
Especially when considering the issues are worsened depending on the current meta and the underlying problems wouldn't be solved at all by only changing other specs.
This thread is mine, i didn't state that necro is underpowered, i totally agree that as a class along with warden are the strongest especially the stamina version.
I just said that this particular skill is underpowered that's why no one uses it.1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Necro and Warden are the main reasons (beside performance) why I don't want to play this game anymore tbh. While I agree that the magicka version of Necro is problematic and not healthy for the game I think it's safe to say that stamcro is the true offender in the current meta. It has the better spammable (Dizzy), one of the best executes in the game,
^ Here is the claim about execute
so you transformed "stamina necro has one of the best executes" into "necro has the best execute"? and you complain about misinformation?
Necro doesn't have an execute.
and the post you quoted does not say otherwise
The post I quoted literally says that "stam Necro has one of the best executes in the game"
and this is true. but it does not say that necromancer has an execute, nor that it has "the most powerful" execute.
It literally states that the class has an execute.
it says stamina necromancer has access to one of the best executes in the game, without precising whether it is a class execute. but keep playing stupid, its easier than finding actual arguments, right?
It said nothing about "access to". It says, directly, "has one of the best executes in the game"
You even acknowledged such in your original reply to me:clearly wrote:so you transformed "stamina necro has one of the best executes" into "necro has the best execute"? and you complain about misinformation?
Having access is the same thing as having a skill.
If you can use it you have it.
You're basing the whole argument on semantics.
Stamnecro can use executioner ---> has one of the best executes in the game.
^ *EVERY* stamina class can use that skill, tho. Or more specifically, every 2-hand user. Dual wield does not have access to that skill. It is not a Necromancer skill, therefore cannot be used to indicate that Necromancer is overtuned.
It's not semantics. A claim was made, that Necromancers have one of the best executes in the game.
Necromancer does not have an execute.
You originally replied first to say that the claim was never made. Now that I am showing you that it was, you are changing the argument to say that Necromancers have access to a non-class skill. You are moving the goalposts.
And with that, I have no desire to continue spinning our wheels going around in circles. I 100% disagree with your premise, and have stated why.
Because that claim was never made. The claim was always: "stamina necro has one of the best executes and nothing else and this is factually true.
It is factually false. 'Stamina necro has" indicates that the execute belongs to the Stamina necro. As there is no execute available in the necromancer skill line, that is false.
The line was NOT "has access to", but rather "has" which indicates possession by the stamina necro class.
It may have been what was meant, but it is not what was written. It's important distinction because the post in question attributed skill lines that all stamina classes have access to as a reason why Wardens and Necros should be nerfed, which is incorrect. Those aren't class skills and thus shouldn't be used to discuss their balance.
You're once again discussing semantics.
In the end if you meet a stamcro he will hit you with executioner and that's why it is important to take it into account.
Some stam necros may use duel wield, because executioner is not a class ability, it's a weapon ability. And not every stamcro is using the same weapon.
So no, it's not just semantics. You don't nerf a stam class because there's a problem with executioner. If there's a problem with executioner, you nerf executioner or 2 handed in general so it compares more favorably to dual wield.Edited by spartaxoxo on July 14, 2021 12:15PM3 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Necro and Warden are the main reasons (beside performance) why I don't want to play this game anymore tbh. While I agree that the magicka version of Necro is problematic and not healthy for the game I think it's safe to say that stamcro is the true offender in the current meta. It has the better spammable (Dizzy), one of the best executes in the game,
^ Here is the claim about execute
so you transformed "stamina necro has one of the best executes" into "necro has the best execute"? and you complain about misinformation?
Necro doesn't have an execute.
and the post you quoted does not say otherwise
The post I quoted literally says that "stam Necro has one of the best executes in the game"
and this is true. but it does not say that necromancer has an execute, nor that it has "the most powerful" execute.
It literally states that the class has an execute.
it says stamina necromancer has access to one of the best executes in the game, without precising whether it is a class execute. but keep playing stupid, its easier than finding actual arguments, right?
It said nothing about "access to". It says, directly, "has one of the best executes in the game"
You even acknowledged such in your original reply to me:clearly wrote:so you transformed "stamina necro has one of the best executes" into "necro has the best execute"? and you complain about misinformation?
Having access is the same thing as having a skill.
If you can use it you have it.
You're basing the whole argument on semantics.
Stamnecro can use executioner ---> has one of the best executes in the game.
^ *EVERY* stamina class can use that skill, tho. Or more specifically, every 2-hand user. Dual wield does not have access to that skill. It is not a Necromancer skill, therefore cannot be used to indicate that Necromancer is overtuned.
It's not semantics. A claim was made, that Necromancers have one of the best executes in the game.
Necromancer does not have an execute.
You originally replied first to say that the claim was never made. Now that I am showing you that it was, you are changing the argument to say that Necromancers have access to a non-class skill. You are moving the goalposts.
And with that, I have no desire to continue spinning our wheels going around in circles. I 100% disagree with your premise, and have stated why.
Because that claim was never made. The claim was always: "stamina necro has one of the best executes and nothing else and this is factually true.
It is factually false. 'Stamina necro has" indicates that the execute belongs to the Stamina necro. As there is no execute available in the necromancer skill line, that is false.
The line was NOT "has access to", but rather "has" which indicates possession by the stamina necro class.
It may have been what was meant, but it is not what was written. It's important distinction because the post in question attributed skill lines that all stamina classes have access to as a reason why Wardens and Necros should be nerfed, which is incorrect. Those aren't class skills and thus shouldn't be used to discuss their balance.
You're once again discussing semantics.
In the end if you meet a stamcro he will hit you with executioner and that's why it is important to take it into account.
Some stam necros may use duel wield, because executioner is not a class ability, it's a weapon ability. And not every stamcro is using the same weapon.
So no, it's not just semantics. You don't nerf a stam class because there's a problem with executioner. If there's a problem with executioner, you nerf that.
If a necro is using DW he's actively reducing the effectiveness of the class and there's no point balancing around that.
No you nerf the stam class because executioner itself is a fine ability and has proven that on the other stam specs, it may be one of the best executes in the game but it's not op, stamnecro on the other side is op and it directly benefits from having access to executioner.
If necro was balanced to begin with then executioner wouldn't be something to talk about, but necro isn't balanced.
1 -
Grandchamp1989✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »There is no issues of the nerfs to affect PvE.
nobody will commit suicide if a dungeon/trial takes 30 seconds extra to finish.
You'd be surprised.
I had someone leave a smooth run of vet Unhallowed Grave on my guild group last night (PUG'd the 4th) because as a Warden tank, I was running forest ult for self heals instead of War Horn.
If runs aren't going exactly according to script, and they don't get to micromanage the builds of everyone else, there are plenty of people who will freak out about mundane stuff in this game.
This doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
This is to me one of the absolute worst part of organized PvE..2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Necro and Warden are the main reasons (beside performance) why I don't want to play this game anymore tbh. While I agree that the magicka version of Necro is problematic and not healthy for the game I think it's safe to say that stamcro is the true offender in the current meta. It has the better spammable (Dizzy), one of the best executes in the game,
^ Here is the claim about execute
so you transformed "stamina necro has one of the best executes" into "necro has the best execute"? and you complain about misinformation?
Necro doesn't have an execute.
and the post you quoted does not say otherwise
The post I quoted literally says that "stam Necro has one of the best executes in the game"
and this is true. but it does not say that necromancer has an execute, nor that it has "the most powerful" execute.
It literally states that the class has an execute.
it says stamina necromancer has access to one of the best executes in the game, without precising whether it is a class execute. but keep playing stupid, its easier than finding actual arguments, right?
It said nothing about "access to". It says, directly, "has one of the best executes in the game"
You even acknowledged such in your original reply to me:clearly wrote:so you transformed "stamina necro has one of the best executes" into "necro has the best execute"? and you complain about misinformation?
Having access is the same thing as having a skill.
If you can use it you have it.
You're basing the whole argument on semantics.
Stamnecro can use executioner ---> has one of the best executes in the game.
^ *EVERY* stamina class can use that skill, tho. Or more specifically, every 2-hand user. Dual wield does not have access to that skill. It is not a Necromancer skill, therefore cannot be used to indicate that Necromancer is overtuned.
It's not semantics. A claim was made, that Necromancers have one of the best executes in the game.
Necromancer does not have an execute.
You originally replied first to say that the claim was never made. Now that I am showing you that it was, you are changing the argument to say that Necromancers have access to a non-class skill. You are moving the goalposts.
And with that, I have no desire to continue spinning our wheels going around in circles. I 100% disagree with your premise, and have stated why.
Because that claim was never made. The claim was always: "stamina necro has one of the best executes and nothing else and this is factually true.
It is factually false. 'Stamina necro has" indicates that the execute belongs to the Stamina necro. As there is no execute available in the necromancer skill line, that is false.
The line was NOT "has access to", but rather "has" which indicates possession by the stamina necro class.
It may have been what was meant, but it is not what was written. It's important distinction because the post in question attributed skill lines that all stamina classes have access to as a reason why Wardens and Necros should be nerfed, which is incorrect. Those aren't class skills and thus shouldn't be used to discuss their balance.
You're once again discussing semantics.
In the end if you meet a stamcro he will hit you with executioner and that's why it is important to take it into account.
Some stam necros may use duel wield, because executioner is not a class ability, it's a weapon ability. And not every stamcro is using the same weapon.
So no, it's not just semantics. You don't nerf a stam class because there's a problem with executioner. If there's a problem with executioner, you nerf that.
If a necro is using DW he's actively reducing the effectiveness of the class and there's no point balancing around that.
No. He is not. Because neither dual wield or 2H are class skills. 2H and DW being imbalanced between each other literally have nothing to do with it. They aren't reducing their class effectiveness because it's own skill line.
You keep trying to act like 2H is part of necro and it isn't.
Edited by spartaxoxo on July 14, 2021 2:07PM6 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Necro and Warden are the main reasons (beside performance) why I don't want to play this game anymore tbh. While I agree that the magicka version of Necro is problematic and not healthy for the game I think it's safe to say that stamcro is the true offender in the current meta. It has the better spammable (Dizzy), one of the best executes in the game,
^ Here is the claim about execute
so you transformed "stamina necro has one of the best executes" into "necro has the best execute"? and you complain about misinformation?
Necro doesn't have an execute.
and the post you quoted does not say otherwise
The post I quoted literally says that "stam Necro has one of the best executes in the game"
and this is true. but it does not say that necromancer has an execute, nor that it has "the most powerful" execute.
It literally states that the class has an execute.
it says stamina necromancer has access to one of the best executes in the game, without precising whether it is a class execute. but keep playing stupid, its easier than finding actual arguments, right?
It said nothing about "access to". It says, directly, "has one of the best executes in the game"
You even acknowledged such in your original reply to me:clearly wrote:so you transformed "stamina necro has one of the best executes" into "necro has the best execute"? and you complain about misinformation?
Having access is the same thing as having a skill.
If you can use it you have it.
You're basing the whole argument on semantics.
Stamnecro can use executioner ---> has one of the best executes in the game.
^ *EVERY* stamina class can use that skill, tho. Or more specifically, every 2-hand user. Dual wield does not have access to that skill. It is not a Necromancer skill, therefore cannot be used to indicate that Necromancer is overtuned.
It's not semantics. A claim was made, that Necromancers have one of the best executes in the game.
Necromancer does not have an execute.
You originally replied first to say that the claim was never made. Now that I am showing you that it was, you are changing the argument to say that Necromancers have access to a non-class skill. You are moving the goalposts.
And with that, I have no desire to continue spinning our wheels going around in circles. I 100% disagree with your premise, and have stated why.
Because that claim was never made. The claim was always: "stamina necro has one of the best executes and nothing else and this is factually true.
It is factually false. 'Stamina necro has" indicates that the execute belongs to the Stamina necro. As there is no execute available in the necromancer skill line, that is false.
The line was NOT "has access to", but rather "has" which indicates possession by the stamina necro class.
It may have been what was meant, but it is not what was written. It's important distinction because the post in question attributed skill lines that all stamina classes have access to as a reason why Wardens and Necros should be nerfed, which is incorrect. Those aren't class skills and thus shouldn't be used to discuss their balance.
You're once again discussing semantics.
In the end if you meet a stamcro he will hit you with executioner and that's why it is important to take it into account.
Some stam necros may use duel wield, because executioner is not a class ability, it's a weapon ability. And not every stamcro is using the same weapon.
So no, it's not just semantics. You don't nerf a stam class because there's a problem with executioner. If there's a problem with executioner, you nerf that.
If a necro is using DW he's actively reducing the effectiveness of the class and there's no point balancing around that.
No. He is not. Because neither dual wield or 2H are class skills. 2H and DW being imbalanced between each other literally have nothing to do with it. They aren't reducing their class effectiveness because it's own skill line.
You keep trying to act like 2H is part of necro and it isn't.
It's part of why stamnecro is as viable as it is but please keep trying to derail the discussion away from Necromancer being an overperforming class by arguing semantics or by looking at small sections rather than the whole picture.
1 -
Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo✭✭✭✭✭
✭stamcros and stamwardens this patch.
My team mates and I have tried in duels together...there is no question they are both insanely stronger than the counter parts.
Tested and tried.
It still the same old...repeating itself...I wish ZOS would stop meta patches. It's their first game..make the effort.0 -
Sugram22✭✭✭Necro and OP?
i play mage necro and when some1 gets melee range i am dead fast don't even have snear's to defend me what would help a bit also some casters even with lights attack do so much damage, and i do not use buff potions i hate using potions other then restore potions same issue with other DPS classes with most of them, but ofc not all are that strong there are ppl who have gotten beating from me2
plaid a bit stam necro to and also doesn't feel op ans like other DPS chars in PVP fall fast when some1 melee's me, seen a lot who can do it fast
i think u have gone against necro who has used a lot of potions and are new crying
but i admit there are issues, not with necro but overall
simple fact is game is broken, some things defy logic and how they should be, how they should work, but that what happens when game team does small changes here and there and also buffing 1 nerfing other doing it by bits and pieces so u never get balance, its cause their corp overlords want to save money do it as cheap as possible and they don't care if we complain
Edited by Sugram22 on August 15, 2021 3:05PM0 -
RisenEclipse✭✭✭✭✭The only necromancers I hate are the ones that post in old and dead forum threads...
But beyond that I really don't have any personal issues with magcrow or stamcrow. They got their advantages and disadvantages. Honestly I'm killed more by NightBlades in Imp city and DragonKnights in battle grounds then I am by necromancers lol0 -
AuraStorm43✭✭✭✭✭I honestly think magcros are fairly mediocre in pvp, its stamcros that are really strong
Honestly their best role in PVP is healing right now, in terms of both healing and group utility they’re the best healers you can take into cyrodil2 -
Xargas13✭✭✭AuraStorm43 wrote: »I honestly think magcros are fairly mediocre in pvp, its stamcros that are really strong
Honestly their best role in PVP is healing right now, in terms of both healing and group utility they’re the best healers you can take into cyrodil
This, I play magcro and I don't find myself that OP, I'm not the best ESO player around probably, but I'm not the only one saying that. If magcro was that OP, we would see it more often then sorcs and wardens.0