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Necromancers are overperforming
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BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
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None of those claims have been mentioned in this thread.amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »I disagree with the premise of this thread. It also seems to be predicated on some false information.
Things I have seen claimed in this thread:
-Claim: "Necromancers have the most powerful execute."
Reality: Necromancers do not have an execute.
-Claim: "Necromancers can siphon from corpses without limit."
Reality: Necromancers can only siphon from one corpse at a time (2, if they have both siphon abilities on their bars)
Also it has been explained why Necromancer is overperforming even while having a plethora of lacklustre/bad skills in its toolkit.
The third claim is simply wrong, if a necro dies he has either died irl, was bad or got zerged down.
And if it requires those things to kill a spec that spec is an issue.Edited by BohnT2 on July 9, 2021 4:05PM3 -
amm7sb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Necro and Warden are the main reasons (beside performance) why I don't want to play this game anymore tbh. While I agree that the magicka version of Necro is problematic and not healthy for the game I think it's safe to say that stamcro is the true offender in the current meta. It has the better spammable (Dizzy), one of the best executes in the game,
^ Here is the claim about execute3 -
clearly✭✭✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Necro and Warden are the main reasons (beside performance) why I don't want to play this game anymore tbh. While I agree that the magicka version of Necro is problematic and not healthy for the game I think it's safe to say that stamcro is the true offender in the current meta. It has the better spammable (Dizzy), one of the best executes in the game,
^ Here is the claim about execute
so you transformed "stamina necro has one of the best executes" into "necro has the best execute"? and you complain about misinformation?3 -
amm7sb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭ThePianist wrote: »The hots that you get from siphoning dead bodies need to be toned down a bit or have a cap at the amount of corpses you can siphon from.
Here is the claim that Necros can siphon from numerous corpses.3 -
amm7sb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Necro and Warden are the main reasons (beside performance) why I don't want to play this game anymore tbh. While I agree that the magicka version of Necro is problematic and not healthy for the game I think it's safe to say that stamcro is the true offender in the current meta. It has the better spammable (Dizzy), one of the best executes in the game,
^ Here is the claim about execute
so you transformed "stamina necro has one of the best executes" into "necro has the best execute"? and you complain about misinformation?
Necro doesn't have an execute.2 -
TheDarkRuler✭✭✭✭✭
✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Necro and Warden are the main reasons (beside performance) why I don't want to play this game anymore tbh. While I agree that the magicka version of Necro is problematic and not healthy for the game I think it's safe to say that stamcro is the true offender in the current meta. It has the better spammable (Dizzy), one of the best executes in the game,
^ Here is the claim about execute
so you transformed "stamina necro has one of the best executes" into "necro has the best execute"? and you complain about misinformation?
Necro doesn't have an execute.
Necro has the ability to deal more crits towards wounded enemies. Which kinda is an execute on all abilities. Still it wasnt that OP anyways and is now nerfed too which heavily impacts Necro in PVE ... i hate this design decision.2 -
clearly✭✭✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Necro and Warden are the main reasons (beside performance) why I don't want to play this game anymore tbh. While I agree that the magicka version of Necro is problematic and not healthy for the game I think it's safe to say that stamcro is the true offender in the current meta. It has the better spammable (Dizzy), one of the best executes in the game,
^ Here is the claim about execute
so you transformed "stamina necro has one of the best executes" into "necro has the best execute"? and you complain about misinformation?
Necro doesn't have an execute.
and the post you quoted does not say otherwise
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amm7sb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Necro and Warden are the main reasons (beside performance) why I don't want to play this game anymore tbh. While I agree that the magicka version of Necro is problematic and not healthy for the game I think it's safe to say that stamcro is the true offender in the current meta. It has the better spammable (Dizzy), one of the best executes in the game,
^ Here is the claim about execute
so you transformed "stamina necro has one of the best executes" into "necro has the best execute"? and you complain about misinformation?
Necro doesn't have an execute.
and the post you quoted does not say otherwise
The post I quoted literally says that "stam Necro has one of the best executes in the game"3 -
clearly✭✭✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Necro and Warden are the main reasons (beside performance) why I don't want to play this game anymore tbh. While I agree that the magicka version of Necro is problematic and not healthy for the game I think it's safe to say that stamcro is the true offender in the current meta. It has the better spammable (Dizzy), one of the best executes in the game,
^ Here is the claim about execute
so you transformed "stamina necro has one of the best executes" into "necro has the best execute"? and you complain about misinformation?
Necro doesn't have an execute.
and the post you quoted does not say otherwise
The post I quoted literally says that "stam Necro has one of the best executes in the game"
and this is true. but it does not say that necromancer has an execute, nor that it has "the most powerful" execute. 0 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »ThePianist wrote: »The hots that you get from siphoning dead bodies need to be toned down a bit or have a cap at the amount of corpses you can siphon from.
Here is the claim that Necros can siphon from numerous corpses.
Deaden pain allows you to get a hot from each corpse.
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amm7sb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Necro and Warden are the main reasons (beside performance) why I don't want to play this game anymore tbh. While I agree that the magicka version of Necro is problematic and not healthy for the game I think it's safe to say that stamcro is the true offender in the current meta. It has the better spammable (Dizzy), one of the best executes in the game,
^ Here is the claim about execute
so you transformed "stamina necro has one of the best executes" into "necro has the best execute"? and you complain about misinformation?
Necro doesn't have an execute.
and the post you quoted does not say otherwise
The post I quoted literally says that "stam Necro has one of the best executes in the game"
and this is true. but it does not say that necromancer has an execute, nor that it has "the most powerful" execute.
It literally states that the class has an execute.2 -
amm7sb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »ThePianist wrote: »The hots that you get from siphoning dead bodies need to be toned down a bit or have a cap at the amount of corpses you can siphon from.
Here is the claim that Necros can siphon from numerous corpses.
Deaden pain allows you to get a hot from each corpse.
A very miniscule 2 second heal.3 -
clearly✭✭✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Necro and Warden are the main reasons (beside performance) why I don't want to play this game anymore tbh. While I agree that the magicka version of Necro is problematic and not healthy for the game I think it's safe to say that stamcro is the true offender in the current meta. It has the better spammable (Dizzy), one of the best executes in the game,
^ Here is the claim about execute
so you transformed "stamina necro has one of the best executes" into "necro has the best execute"? and you complain about misinformation?
Necro doesn't have an execute.
and the post you quoted does not say otherwise
The post I quoted literally says that "stam Necro has one of the best executes in the game"
and this is true. but it does not say that necromancer has an execute, nor that it has "the most powerful" execute.
It literally states that the class has an execute.
it says stamina necromancer has access to one of the best executes in the game, without precising whether it is a class execute. [snip]
[Edit for Rude and Insulting comment.]Edited by ZOS_GregoryV on July 9, 2021 5:47PM0 -
amm7sb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Necro and Warden are the main reasons (beside performance) why I don't want to play this game anymore tbh. While I agree that the magicka version of Necro is problematic and not healthy for the game I think it's safe to say that stamcro is the true offender in the current meta. It has the better spammable (Dizzy), one of the best executes in the game,
^ Here is the claim about execute
so you transformed "stamina necro has one of the best executes" into "necro has the best execute"? and you complain about misinformation?
Necro doesn't have an execute.
and the post you quoted does not say otherwise
The post I quoted literally says that "stam Necro has one of the best executes in the game"
and this is true. but it does not say that necromancer has an execute, nor that it has "the most powerful" execute.
It literally states that the class has an execute.
it says stamina necromancer has access to one of the best executes in the game, without precising whether it is a class execute. but keep playing stupid, its easier than finding actual arguments, right?
It said nothing about "access to". It says, directly, "has one of the best executes in the game"
You even acknowledged such in your original reply to me:clearly wrote:so you transformed "stamina necro has one of the best executes" into "necro has the best execute"? and you complain about misinformation?Edited by amm7sb14_ESO on July 9, 2021 5:10PM4 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Necro and Warden are the main reasons (beside performance) why I don't want to play this game anymore tbh. While I agree that the magicka version of Necro is problematic and not healthy for the game I think it's safe to say that stamcro is the true offender in the current meta. It has the better spammable (Dizzy), one of the best executes in the game,
^ Here is the claim about execute
so you transformed "stamina necro has one of the best executes" into "necro has the best execute"? and you complain about misinformation?
Necro doesn't have an execute.
and the post you quoted does not say otherwise
The post I quoted literally says that "stam Necro has one of the best executes in the game"
and this is true. but it does not say that necromancer has an execute, nor that it has "the most powerful" execute.
It literally states that the class has an execute.
it says stamina necromancer has access to one of the best executes in the game, without precising whether it is a class execute. but keep playing stupid, its easier than finding actual arguments, right?
It said nothing about "access to". It says, directly, "has one of the best executes in the game"
You even acknowledged such in your original reply to me:clearly wrote:so you transformed "stamina necro has one of the best executes" into "necro has the best execute"? and you complain about misinformation?
Having access is the same thing as having a skill.
If you can use it you have it.
You're basing the whole argument on semantics.
Stamnecro can use executioner ---> has one of the best executes in the game.2 -
amm7sb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Necro and Warden are the main reasons (beside performance) why I don't want to play this game anymore tbh. While I agree that the magicka version of Necro is problematic and not healthy for the game I think it's safe to say that stamcro is the true offender in the current meta. It has the better spammable (Dizzy), one of the best executes in the game,
^ Here is the claim about execute
so you transformed "stamina necro has one of the best executes" into "necro has the best execute"? and you complain about misinformation?
Necro doesn't have an execute.
and the post you quoted does not say otherwise
The post I quoted literally says that "stam Necro has one of the best executes in the game"
and this is true. but it does not say that necromancer has an execute, nor that it has "the most powerful" execute.
It literally states that the class has an execute.
it says stamina necromancer has access to one of the best executes in the game, without precising whether it is a class execute. but keep playing stupid, its easier than finding actual arguments, right?
It said nothing about "access to". It says, directly, "has one of the best executes in the game"
You even acknowledged such in your original reply to me:clearly wrote:so you transformed "stamina necro has one of the best executes" into "necro has the best execute"? and you complain about misinformation?
Having access is the same thing as having a skill.
If you can use it you have it.
You're basing the whole argument on semantics.
Stamnecro can use executioner ---> has one of the best executes in the game.
^ *EVERY* stamina class can use that skill, tho. Or more specifically, every 2-hand user. Dual wield does not have access to that skill. It is not a Necromancer skill, therefore cannot be used to indicate that Necromancer is overtuned.
It's not semantics. A claim was made, that Necromancers have one of the best executes in the game.
Necromancer does not have an execute.
You originally replied first to say that the claim was never made. Now that I am showing you that it was, you are changing the argument to say that Necromancers have access to a non-class skill. You are moving the goalposts.
And with that, I have no desire to continue spinning our wheels going around in circles. I 100% disagree with your premise, and have stated why.Edited by amm7sb14_ESO on July 9, 2021 6:14PM5 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Necro and Warden are the main reasons (beside performance) why I don't want to play this game anymore tbh. While I agree that the magicka version of Necro is problematic and not healthy for the game I think it's safe to say that stamcro is the true offender in the current meta. It has the better spammable (Dizzy), one of the best executes in the game,
^ Here is the claim about execute
so you transformed "stamina necro has one of the best executes" into "necro has the best execute"? and you complain about misinformation?
Necro doesn't have an execute.
and the post you quoted does not say otherwise
The post I quoted literally says that "stam Necro has one of the best executes in the game"
and this is true. but it does not say that necromancer has an execute, nor that it has "the most powerful" execute.
It literally states that the class has an execute.
it says stamina necromancer has access to one of the best executes in the game, without precising whether it is a class execute. but keep playing stupid, its easier than finding actual arguments, right?
It said nothing about "access to". It says, directly, "has one of the best executes in the game"
You even acknowledged such in your original reply to me:clearly wrote:so you transformed "stamina necro has one of the best executes" into "necro has the best execute"? and you complain about misinformation?
Having access is the same thing as having a skill.
If you can use it you have it.
You're basing the whole argument on semantics.
Stamnecro can use executioner ---> has one of the best executes in the game.
^ *EVERY* stamina class can use that skill, tho. Or more specifically, every 2-hand user. Dual wield does not have access to that skill. It is not a Necromancer skill, therefore cannot be used to indicate that Necromancer is overtuned.
It's not semantics. A claim was made, that Necromancers have one of the best executes in the game.
Necromancer does not have an execute.
You originally replied first to say that the claim was never made. Now that I am showing you that it was, you are changing the argument to say that Necromancers have access to a non-class skill. You are moving the goalposts.
And with that, I have no desire to continue spinning our wheels going around in circles. I 100% disagree with your premise, and have stated why.
Because that claim was never made. The claim was always: "stamina necro has one of the best executes and nothing else and this is factually true.
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Knockmaker✭✭✭✭Knockmaker wrote: »I disagree. If the blastbones wasn't this clunky and worked properly, I would have agreed that it might be slightly more advantageous in some aspects, but in this state. It does fine. I have been playing pvp for quite a while now and lately I haven't seen any particular necromancer that couldn't be killed by 2 good players and is both tanky and deals crazy damage. I disagree that is is OP and also I am against any more "pls nerf this and that" suggestions.
so necro is fine because it only needs 2 good players to be killed?
If it wasn't clear enough for you, I was obviously referring to OP players on necro classes. You can tweeze a couple of words from an entire paragraph as much as you want, but it is not gonna change the fact that even the most troll/tanky necro builds are killable. And same goes with other classes as well. Depending on your play style, you can make a tanky/troll build from necros/dragonknights/wardens and even templars too. Even then, if they are not back up by their teammates, you can still kill them. It is not a matter of necro being OP, it is just the way things are atm (not defending tanky/troll builds, but given with the right setup, it is possible. Maybe a further tuning of gears might address this, tho it isn't as bad as it was before proc sets were readjusted).
Also, try playing a necro and using Blastbones. Then let us know how frustrating it is because it usually doesn't do its job. Let them fix things first, then let's see how every class performs, and then if there is a need, they can focus on balancing things.
But with they way things are, it is a no no for any nerfs.2 -
Sneakers✭✭✭Have to be said that BohnT is a top tier magnecro that now plays a mag templar 100%, he doesn't play his necro anymore.
He knows Magcro well and did well 1v1 on it through several patches when it was clearly underperforming.
With that said I don't understand this thread.
1) Necros only advantage in mitigation comes from the 10% from ONE morph of spirit mender and the deaded pain 3%, so in total 13%.
Not all necro builds can afford to run that morph since it heals (depending on build) only for 1000-1400 / 2s which is VERY low.
2) Stamina necros also have to give up gap closer and "anytime stuns" to load up on A) vigor B ) mortal coil C) healing pet
If you are not a 2h Necro that is all healing you got, you have no easy access to a BIG burst heal
3) Having much higher damage in this patch benefits Necro I agree on that, but it also benefits NBs, templars and stam sorcs
4) Necro get 300 stamina sustain from mortal coil + having a pet up (mortail coil gives 1300 stamina over 12s = ~100 + 200 = 300)
Sorcerer (both stam and magicka) also get a lot of "free" stamina sustain and templars as well.
5) Many magicka builds (if we look at magicka necro now) can dodge roll multiple times in a row with some well-fitted/and or magicka shield CPs. My magicka sorc has 1800 roll dodge cost on 23500 stamina with 1600 stamina recovery (using magicka pots)
6) In cyro, all necro pets become unreliable, especially BB which at a certain point stops functioning since the server lags so much the pet dies before it can engage a target
7) Magicka necros only CC is dawn breaker, nothing else is reliable or worth using over another essential skill
8) All the crying about mortal coil has to stop it is nowhere near Vigor in healing, 7200 wep damage vigor heals for 29-30k on my stamina necro over 4 seconds. Mortail coil heals 31k over 12 seconds, that is 1/3 (33%) of vigor healing. That is 2500 healing / s and then cut by 55% (we can say half) by battle spirit = 1250 healing /s. With 7200 wep damage, nobody runs around with that all the time. My necro usually gets 295 / 0.5s from mortal coil = 600 heal / s, nothing mayor.
9) Necros weakest point is its stamina sustain, I struggle to reach 2280 sustain on my stamina necro, my stamina sorc ran around with 3600 without even trying.
All classes can use balorgh + dawnbreaker/other instant high dmg ulti and gain high pens to time their burst on, nothing unique for necro.
Maybe this is from a duels PoV were kiting is not a factor and you cannot reset a fight (as BohnT said if mag necro pops 500 ulti goliath and forces the other in a fight were they are unkillable for 20s with +12000 pen and 500 spell dmg for 12s from balorgh)
Stamden, Stam NB, Stam DK, Stamplar magplar all have builds that are rediculous in this current high dmg META. Stamden in my book still the strongest due to access to super (overloaded) condensed skills that give them litterally every single utility skill and buff while not having to give up on gap closer, exec, burst heal, speed etc.
Stamden has theoretically a lower burst potential then a necro YES but you don't need maxed burst you only need high enough to kill 85% - the rest you draw cus they cannot kill you either. Stamden is perfect for this.
> Necros only advantage in mitigation comes from the 10% from ONE morph of spirit mender and the deaded pain 3%, so in total 13%.
> Not all necro builds can afford to run that morph since it heals (depending on build) only for 1000-1400 / 2s which is VERY low.
it heals for that much on stamina necro.
was on a full proc magcro without any stat sets and 3 recovery glyphs just for the memes. now with extra 1k spell damage and stat sets you should be able to get over 2k average without problems, which is a lot better than 90% of the heals over time that other classes have access to. (e.g dark cloak is at best 1k hps, for double the cost and half the duration. and half the mitigation, and its a named buff)
> 2) Stamina necros also have to give up gap closer and "anytime stuns" to load up on A) vigor B ) mortal coil C) healing pet
If you are not a 2h Necro that is all healing you got, you have no easy access to a BIG burst heal
stamcro doesnt need a guaranteed cc nor a gap closer. and if youre not running 2h on stamcro, just delete the character already.
> 3) Having much higher damage in this patch benefits Necro I agree on that, but it also benefits NBs, templars and stam sorcs
every class benefits from higher stats, some more than others, as explained in the op, which also explains that necro benefits a lot more from it thanks to its defensive kit.
> 4) Necro get 300 stamina sustain from mortal coil + having a pet up (mortail coil gives 1300 stamina over 12s = ~100 + 200 = 300)
Sorcerer (both stam and magicka) also get a lot of "free" stamina sustain and templars as well.
coil is 100 stam/s which is 200 regen, so stamcro gets 400 regen (which is actually more since the 200 from the pet scales with modifier, unlike other classes extra sustain). necro skills are also extremely cheap, if not free. blastbones costs like 1k mag/stam. and both templar and sorc have worse offensive and defensive options than necro.
> 5) Many magicka builds (if we look at magicka necro now) can dodge roll multiple times in a row with some well-fitted/and or magicka shield CPs. My magicka sorc has 1800 roll dodge cost on 23500 stamina with 1600 stamina recovery (using magicka pots)
ok? so you're agreeing that stam sustain is anything but hard?
> 6) In cyro, all necro pets become unreliable, especially BB which at a certain point stops functioning since the server lags so much the pet dies before it can engage a target
nothing is reliable in cyro lag. this isnt a necro exclusive
> 7) Magicka necros only CC is dawn breaker, nothing else is reliable or worth using over another essential skill
if youre smallscaling or something similar, you dont need more. you can slot clench for 1v1 and totem for 1vX (one of the best defensive cc in the game)
8) All the crying about mortal coil has to stop it is nowhere near Vigor in healing, 7200 wep damage vigor heals for 29-30k on my stamina necro over 4 seconds. Mortail coil heals 31k over 12 seconds, that is 1/3 (33%) of vigor healing. That is 2500 healing / s and then cut by 55% (we can say half) by battle spirit = 1250 healing /s. With 7200 wep damage, nobody runs around with that all the time. My necro usually gets 295 / 0.5s from mortal coil = 600 heal / s, nothing mayor.
yeah just forget that its free, returns stam and gives 3% healing done. oh and it double ticks. and forget about these too:
jokes aside, yes it has a fairly similar tooltip to other heal over times, but other classes, unlike necro, can not afford to run full stats builds and thus get much less healing from their skills.
> All classes can use balorgh + dawnbreaker/other instant high dmg ulti and gain high pens to time their burst on, nothing unique for necro.
other classes have a single dawnbreaker coming with balorgh. necro has 2
> Stamden has theoretically a lower burst potential then a necro YES but you don't need maxed burst you only need high enough to kill 85% - the rest you draw cus they cannot kill you either. Stamden is perfect for this.
you realise that this is literally necro in a nutshell and the entire point of the post?
>
Very disingenuous reply. Doesn't change the fact that necro has 10% from pet which is honestly, on a stamina build at least, not that good at healing and finally 3% from deaded pain.
>it heals for that much on stamina necro.
Shows 1600 average healing every 2s which equal 800 healing /s, which is not awesome I would say quite low in a meta were people hit for 10k left right and center.
>was on a full proc magcro without any stat sets and 3 recovery glyphs just for the memes. now with extra 1k spell damage and stat sets you should be able to get over 2k average without problems, which is a lot better than 90% of the heals over time that other classes have access to. (e.g dark cloak is at best 1k hps, for double the cost and half the duration. and half the mitigation, and its a named buff)
Not sure what your talking about, I litterally went ingame on my stamina necro and looked at the heals from the 10% mitigation pet. Heals for 1000-1400 depending on my weapon damage, 1400 at 7200 wep dmg. Magcro will have slightly higher due to more magicka, that is the case for all magicka cost skills in the game. Resto staff heals TT for like 33k on my magicka sorc. Nerf that also?
Also dark cloak (tank version of disguise) heals for much more then that. I played a tank NB not long ago and it ticked for 2400ish-2500ish, if not more and I had only 5kish wep dmg on that tank NB. So thats blatantly wrong and missinformation. Again your disingenuous.
>every class benefits from higher stats, some more than others, as explained in the op, which also explains that necro benefits a lot more from it thanks to its defensive kit.
This is about the over all changes to the balance between mitigation + HoT + Burst heal + damage, necro benefits (so does any class that has natural tankyness from passives or skills) when they raise damage and cut heals. Also all classes with high pressure benefits from higher damage since their DPS goes up a lot but players total HP and heals go down which means its a loosing battle for many (their heals cannot outheal the high pressure that for example templars can apply without effort, timing, thumbs.
But as I said, necro benefits, so does templar, sorc and NB. Nothing unique at all.
>coil is 100 stam/s which is 200 regen, so stamcro gets 400 regen (which is actually more since the 200 from the pet scales with modifier, unlike other classes extra sustain). necro skills are also extremely cheap, if not free. blastbones costs like 1k mag/stam. and both templar and sorc have worse offensive and defensive options than necro.
Coil is 1250 stamina over 12 seconds or ~200 regen every 2s. Not 200 stamina /s. Good that is cleared up then.
>ok? so you're agreeing that stam sustain is anything but hard?
Yes I am agreeing and stating that almost every single magicka build out there can roll dodge like there is no tomorrow, magnecro included.
>nothing is reliable in cyro lag. this isnt a necro exclusive
Being disingenuous again are we. Ofcourse it is relevant when all the tears about BB and the healing pet is tied to server performance. No other skill breaks totally with high server loads as these two skills due to PET ai.
Sorc pet can still heal in lag since it is player triggered etc. Shade still "eventually" works after some spam. Sorc ulti pet etc etc. Necro heal pet and BB completly stops functioning since server down prio their AI and they do nothing when high loads.
>if youre smallscaling or something similar, you dont need more. you can slot clench for 1v1 and totem for 1vX (one of the best defensive cc in the game)
I am commenting on the seemingly "outrage" regarding magcros usage of dawnbreaker as an ulti, making them OPed cus they now all of a sudden have a stun that can be used together with burst so people cannot simply block and spamm burst heal. Obviously you can use the slow casting animation flame clench if you want to waste an entire slot at a bad CC. I think most active magcros cant afford that trade for another useful skill.
>yeah just forget that its free, returns stam and gives 3% healing done. oh and it double ticks. and forget about these too:
It does not double tick anymore. 3% is nice, hardly OPed. The heal itself is as i stated ~280-300 per tick without crit every 0.5s -> ~600 healing in Cyro per second.
The healing passives are nice for sure, but every single class have nice passives more or less. Usually a necro will be able to slot 3-6% increased healing if they have resist buff and deaded pain on the same bar. Many do not use deaded pain and have 3%, again nice but not massive.
The 8% boost while having a neg effect is a trade off because our burst heal debuffs our healing 8%. So it is situational, use burst heal and loose the passive, or use no burst heal and enjoy the passive.
>jokes aside, yes it has a fairly similar tooltip to other heal over times, but other classes, unlike necro, can not afford to run full stats builds and thus get much less healing from their skills.
Not 100% sure what you mean with full stat builds? Mag DK insane healing. Mag NB insane healing. Mag templar insane healing. Magden insane healing.
Only mag class with limited healing potential is Magsorc I would say and it has double shields which works well 1v1 but is *** in 1vX in this high damage META.
Most classes have access to rediculously strong heals right now. The main difference is the 10% +3% mitigation, 13%.
>other classes have a single dawnbreaker coming with balorgh. necro has 2
Sorc has curse
Stam sorc has crystal weapon
Stam Dk could use psijic weapon to stack damage and skip GCD for burst (so could maptemplar and stamtemplar)
Warden exactley the same TT on their subs as Necro
NB + templar + dk have no timered burst skill at all they are skilled differenty, and benefit elsewhere (albeit its a handicap if you try to build for only burst on a class that is not meant for that)
>you realise that this is literally necro in a nutshell and the entire point of the post?
No that is not what BohnT is saying. He is litterally saying that necro is ***, badly designed, boring and has bad skills overall.
The only skills that work are BB + dawn breaker + spammy + healing pet for 100k heal / s (rolleyes) and due to the fact that the META NOW IS HIGH damage that combo works were it previously didn't.
Before our BB + ulti combo did 12k dmg and people had 25-30k hp.
Now our BB + ulti does 20k damage and people have 30k hp, that is obviously much better then the low damage meta that was previously.
That together with necros slightly higher natural damage mitigation (13%) favors necro in a high damage meta were every single skill hits for 10k dmg or more and everyone can heal for 10k burst heals. If you can sneak in a little mitigation on a 20k hit that has a much bigger impact then it previously had on for example a 6k hit.
This is vastly different from my point about warden which is objectively the best class in the game at doing "everything well" due to their skills being so condensed and overloaded and proving everything. If anything necro is specialized and more weighted in their passives to self healing and mitigation.
Edited by Sneakers on July 9, 2021 8:58PM4 -
clearly✭✭✭@Sneakers alright thanks for the laughVery disingenuous reply. Doesn't change the fact that necro has 10% from pet which is honestly, on a stamina build at least, not that good at healing and finally 3% from deaded pain.
so an extra 15% mitigation against dots is disingenuous? granted, most things are direct damage, but 15% is huge. and can we have a look at the other classes extra mitigation? templar, warden and nightblade have access to minor protection (5%). necromancer can stack their 10% with minor protection.Shows 1600 average healing every 2s which equal 800 healing /s, which is not awesome I would say quite low in a meta were people hit for 10k left right and center.
800 hps in a no cp fight before the cp rework. so basically i had at most 3k spell damage and sub 25k max magicka. so bad right?Not sure what your talking about, I litterally went ingame on my stamina necro and looked at the heals from the 10% mitigation pet. Heals for 1000-1400 depending on my weapon damage, 1400 at 7200 wep dmg. Magcro will have slightly higher due to more magicka, that is the case for all magicka cost skills in the game. Resto staff heals TT for like 33k on my magicka sorc. Nerf that also?
the heal scales exclusively with max magicka and spell damage. it does not scale at any point from stamina or weapon damage. its coefficients are 0.06 max magicka + 0.65 spell damage, which is 1680 + 2925 = 4605 tooltip before modifiers with 27k mag and 4500 spell damage which is very easily reachable on necro. after battle spirit, this is a 2300 heal, so 1150 hps without any modifiers.Also dark cloak (tank version of disguise) heals for much more then that. I played a tank NB not long ago and it ticked for 2400ish-2500ish, if not more and I had only 5kish wep dmg on that tank NB. So thats blatantly wrong and missinformation. Again your disingenuous.
so you played a tank and were tanky? how surprising. dark cloak scales at slightly less than 6% of your max hp, which is 1700 tooltip, so 850 hps for twice the cost, half the mitigation, and half the duration. so i am the one being disingenuous when you're bringing up your lower offensive stats when it has literally zero influences on your potential hps from dark cloak?This is about the over all changes to the balance between mitigation + HoT + Burst heal + damage, necro benefits (so does any class that has natural tankyness from passives or skills) when they raise damage and cut heals. Also all classes with high pressure benefits from higher damage since their DPS goes up a lot but players total HP and heals go down which means its a loosing battle for many (their heals cannot outheal the high pressure that for example templars can apply without effort, timing, thumbs.
But as I said, necro benefits, so does templar, sorc and NB. Nothing unique at all.
they didn't nerf any heal. heals have been buffed through the roof with the extra 1000 weapon and spell damage, and necro is the one that can makes the most use it, thanks to its natural tankyness.Coil is 1250 stamina over 12 seconds or ~200 regen every 2s. Not 200 stamina /s. Good that is cleared up then.
you don't even know that regen ticks every 2s and you're trying to argue? 1250/6 = 208. seems you were right, it's not 200 stam regen. it's 208Being disingenuous again are we. Ofcourse it is relevant when all the tears about BB and the healing pet is tied to server performance. No other skill breaks totally with high server loads as these two skills due to PET ai.
Sorc pet can still heal in lag since it is player triggered etc. Shade still "eventually" works after some spam. Sorc ulti pet etc etc. Necro heal pet and BB completly stops functioning since server down prio their AI and they do nothing when high loads.
everything is tied to server performance. no other class can tank like necromancer when breakfree does not work. cloak and shade don't work in lag, just like streak and every other skill, and good luck landing anything with a cast time (ultimate, jabs) or a projectile (assassin's scourge, crystal fragments). if we had to start balancing around cyrodiil performance, we would be left with only fist light attacks.I am commenting on the seemingly "outrage" regarding magcros usage of dawnbreaker as an ulti, making them OPed cus they now all of a sudden have a stun that can be used together with burst so people cannot simply block and spamm burst heal. Obviously you can use the slow casting animation flame clench if you want to waste an entire slot at a bad CC. I think most active magcros cant afford that trade for another useful skill.
as i've said, a stun is not mandatory for 1vX or 'smallscale', and if you want one, you can slot totem which is an extremely powerful tool in a static fight/choke point. duels are different and you can adapt your build, which is why you can use clench, or be a coward and camp your totem while blastbones does everything. by the way, the reason dawnbreaker is now good on magcro is because zenimax had the brilliant idea of merging physical and spell penetrationsIt does not double tick anymore. 3% is nice, hardly OPed. The heal itself is as i stated ~280-300 per tick without crit every 0.5s -> ~600 healing in Cyro per second.
zenimax only fixed the braided tether morph. mortal coil still double ticks, although not as frequently.The healing passives are nice for sure, but every single class have nice passives more or less. Usually a necro will be able to slot 3-6% increased healing if they have resist buff and deaded pain on the same bar. Many do not use deaded pain and have 3%, again nice but not massive.
The 8% boost while having a neg effect is a trade off because our burst heal debuffs our healing 8%. So it is situational, use burst heal and loose the passive, or use no burst heal and enjoy the passive.
you realise that 3-6% is what every other class has access to in the best case, outside of dragonknight, which doesn't have any heal over time? and that 8% procs off any debuff, which means it has 100% uptime, as opposed to sometimes having minor defile on you (from the same skill that grants you between 3k and 5k resists during that tile).Not 100% sure what you mean with full stat builds? Mag DK insane healing. Mag NB insane healing. Mag templar insane healing. Magden insane healing.
these classes can have strong heals, but they also clear weaknesses, unlike magicka necro (e.g no heal over time or no burst heal). necromancer has better healing and mitigation than all of these, and it allows it to run offensive stats sets, which buffs its heals even further (as opposed to e.g pariah).Sorc has curse
Stam sorc has crystal weapon
Stam Dk could use psijic weapon to stack damage and skip GCD for burst (so could maptemplar and stamtemplar)
Warden exactley the same TT on their subs as Necro
NB + templar + dk have no timered burst skill at all they are skilled differenty, and benefit elsewhere (albeit its a handicap if you try to build for only burst on a class that is not meant for that)
haunting curse scales at 1.4 spell damage, is single target and can be purged.
crystal weapon scales at 1.08 weapon damage, is single target, can be blocked or dodged and requires you to skip one or more light or heavy attack before your combo if you're not a ganker.
psijic weapon is anything but delayed burst. you have to hit a light attack in the following gcd (or current if ranged weapon); you literally cannot cast another skill before proccing it without losing the buff. and it scales at 0.97 weapon damage, is blockable and dodgeable, all that.
shalks scales at 1.5 weapon or spell damage and hits in front of the warden in a range of 20m.
blastbones scales at over 1.60 and has a 28m range, 360°. "exact same tooltip"
also are you saying nightblade isn't a burst class?No that is not what BohnT is saying. He is litterally saying that necro is ***, badly designed, boring and has bad skills overall.
The only skills that work are BB + dawn breaker + spammy + healing pet for 100k heal / s (rolleyes) and due to the fact that the META NOW IS HIGH damage that combo works were it previously didn't.
Before our BB + ulti combo did 12k dmg and people had 25-30k hp.
Now our BB + ulti does 20k damage and people have 30k hp, that is obviously much better then the low damage meta that was previously.
That together with necros slightly higher natural damage mitigation (13%) favors necro in a high damage meta were every single skill hits for 10k dmg or more and everyone can heal for 10k burst heals. If you can sneak in a little mitigation on a 20k hit that has a much bigger impact then it previously had on for example a 6k hit.
This is vastly different from my point about warden which is objectively the best class in the game at doing "everything well" due to their skills being so condensed and overloaded and proving everything. If anything necro is specialized and more weighted in their passives to self healing and mitigation.
you clearly didn't understand op's post. necromancer is literally a "worst case is a draw" button. it can heal well, it can dd well, it can support well, it can tank well. i suppose mobility is lacking, but race against time exists, so it's not a valid argument.
while yes, the rest of the toolkit is awfully pathetic, necromancer has a few skills that are miles ahead of anything else in the game; and nerfing those isn't possible without trashing the class, just like buffing the others would instantly make it even more oppressive than it is right now, hence the need for a 'rework'.0 -
clearly✭✭✭Knockmaker wrote: »Knockmaker wrote: »I disagree. If the blastbones wasn't this clunky and worked properly, I would have agreed that it might be slightly more advantageous in some aspects, but in this state. It does fine. I have been playing pvp for quite a while now and lately I haven't seen any particular necromancer that couldn't be killed by 2 good players and is both tanky and deals crazy damage. I disagree that is is OP and also I am against any more "pls nerf this and that" suggestions.
so necro is fine because it only needs 2 good players to be killed?
If it wasn't clear enough for you, I was obviously referring to OP players on necro classes. You can tweeze a couple of words from an entire paragraph as much as you want, but it is not gonna change the fact that even the most troll/tanky necro builds are killable. And same goes with other classes as well. Depending on your play style, you can make a tanky/troll build from necros/dragonknights/wardens and even templars too. Even then, if they are not back up by their teammates, you can still kill them. It is not a matter of necro being OP, it is just the way things are atm (not defending tanky/troll builds, but given with the right setup, it is possible. Maybe a further tuning of gears might address this, tho it isn't as bad as it was before proc sets were readjusted).
Also, try playing a necro and using Blastbones. Then let us know how frustrating it is because it usually doesn't do its job. Let them fix things first, then let's see how every class performs, and then if there is a need, they can focus on balancing things.
But with they way things are, it is a no no for any nerfs.
so you're saying that because you can gang up 20v1 on a necro, it is therefore not broken?
blastbones isn't worse than any other skills in the game. it has its *** ups in lag, but it works fine enough outside of prime time. just like every other class.1 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Spot on OP, 100% agree here, I've given up a long time ago to write my feedback to zos, but ill happily put my support up when someone has a point, gg.
PC EU
PvP only0 -
Knockmaker✭✭✭✭Knockmaker wrote: »Knockmaker wrote: »I disagree. If the blastbones wasn't this clunky and worked properly, I would have agreed that it might be slightly more advantageous in some aspects, but in this state. It does fine. I have been playing pvp for quite a while now and lately I haven't seen any particular necromancer that couldn't be killed by 2 good players and is both tanky and deals crazy damage. I disagree that is is OP and also I am against any more "pls nerf this and that" suggestions.
so necro is fine because it only needs 2 good players to be killed?
If it wasn't clear enough for you, I was obviously referring to OP players on necro classes. You can tweeze a couple of words from an entire paragraph as much as you want, but it is not gonna change the fact that even the most troll/tanky necro builds are killable. And same goes with other classes as well. Depending on your play style, you can make a tanky/troll build from necros/dragonknights/wardens and even templars too. Even then, if they are not back up by their teammates, you can still kill them. It is not a matter of necro being OP, it is just the way things are atm (not defending tanky/troll builds, but given with the right setup, it is possible. Maybe a further tuning of gears might address this, tho it isn't as bad as it was before proc sets were readjusted).
Also, try playing a necro and using Blastbones. Then let us know how frustrating it is because it usually doesn't do its job. Let them fix things first, then let's see how every class performs, and then if there is a need, they can focus on balancing things.
But with they way things are, it is a no no for any nerfs.
so you're saying that because you can gang up 20v1 on a necro, it is therefore not broken?
blastbones isn't worse than any other skills in the game. it has its *** ups in lag, but it works fine enough outside of prime time. just like every other class.
If you are making such allegations, show us an up-to-date video of a necro in cyrodiil that straight up faces and gangs up 20 ppl alone, and I promise you that I will delete my account. I am not talking about tanky builds who troll people around (usually in towers), use environment to their advantage and maybe kill a few squishy players before getting killed eventually. You can do this with other classes as well. In fact, it is common with wardens nowadays. There is no single build or person who can straight up attack 20 players and "gang" them up on their own. Alternatively, you can show us a video of a necro getting ganked by 20 players, not die and kill the attackers alone. Same thing. There is no such thing. There are several builds out there that can match a necro. Thus, this whole suggestion is a "nerf this and that" request in a fancy package.4 -
Red99✭✭✭Next patch stamnecro will be almost unkillable cuz battle spirt change..now is 44% dmg reduction next patch will be 60% reductionEdited by Red99 on July 10, 2021 10:17AM3
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BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Knockmaker wrote: »Knockmaker wrote: »Knockmaker wrote: »I disagree. If the blastbones wasn't this clunky and worked properly, I would have agreed that it might be slightly more advantageous in some aspects, but in this state. It does fine. I have been playing pvp for quite a while now and lately I haven't seen any particular necromancer that couldn't be killed by 2 good players and is both tanky and deals crazy damage. I disagree that is is OP and also I am against any more "pls nerf this and that" suggestions.
so necro is fine because it only needs 2 good players to be killed?
If it wasn't clear enough for you, I was obviously referring to OP players on necro classes. You can tweeze a couple of words from an entire paragraph as much as you want, but it is not gonna change the fact that even the most troll/tanky necro builds are killable. And same goes with other classes as well. Depending on your play style, you can make a tanky/troll build from necros/dragonknights/wardens and even templars too. Even then, if they are not back up by their teammates, you can still kill them. It is not a matter of necro being OP, it is just the way things are atm (not defending tanky/troll builds, but given with the right setup, it is possible. Maybe a further tuning of gears might address this, tho it isn't as bad as it was before proc sets were readjusted).
Also, try playing a necro and using Blastbones. Then let us know how frustrating it is because it usually doesn't do its job. Let them fix things first, then let's see how every class performs, and then if there is a need, they can focus on balancing things.
But with they way things are, it is a no no for any nerfs.
so you're saying that because you can gang up 20v1 on a necro, it is therefore not broken?
blastbones isn't worse than any other skills in the game. it has its *** ups in lag, but it works fine enough outside of prime time. just like every other class.
If you are making such allegations, show us an up-to-date video of a necro in cyrodiil that straight up faces and gangs up 20 ppl alone, and I promise you that I will delete my account. I am not talking about tanky builds who troll people around (usually in towers), use environment to their advantage and maybe kill a few squishy players before getting killed eventually. You can do this with other classes as well. In fact, it is common with wardens nowadays. There is no single build or person who can straight up attack 20 players and "gang" them up on their own. Alternatively, you can show us a video of a necro getting ganked by 20 players, not die and kill the attackers alone. Same thing. There is no such thing. There are several builds out there that can match a necro. Thus, this whole suggestion is a "nerf this and that" request in a fancy package.
Read his post again he never said necro will ever get a 1v20.
He said that your argument about necro being balanced because you can zerg it down is bad.
If you have to zerg down regular non tank builds and have no chance of killing them otherwise there's a balance issue.3 -
Knockmaker✭✭✭✭Knockmaker wrote: »Knockmaker wrote: »Knockmaker wrote: »I disagree. If the blastbones wasn't this clunky and worked properly, I would have agreed that it might be slightly more advantageous in some aspects, but in this state. It does fine. I have been playing pvp for quite a while now and lately I haven't seen any particular necromancer that couldn't be killed by 2 good players and is both tanky and deals crazy damage. I disagree that is is OP and also I am against any more "pls nerf this and that" suggestions.
so necro is fine because it only needs 2 good players to be killed?
If it wasn't clear enough for you, I was obviously referring to OP players on necro classes. You can tweeze a couple of words from an entire paragraph as much as you want, but it is not gonna change the fact that even the most troll/tanky necro builds are killable. And same goes with other classes as well. Depending on your play style, you can make a tanky/troll build from necros/dragonknights/wardens and even templars too. Even then, if they are not back up by their teammates, you can still kill them. It is not a matter of necro being OP, it is just the way things are atm (not defending tanky/troll builds, but given with the right setup, it is possible. Maybe a further tuning of gears might address this, tho it isn't as bad as it was before proc sets were readjusted).
Also, try playing a necro and using Blastbones. Then let us know how frustrating it is because it usually doesn't do its job. Let them fix things first, then let's see how every class performs, and then if there is a need, they can focus on balancing things.
But with they way things are, it is a no no for any nerfs.
so you're saying that because you can gang up 20v1 on a necro, it is therefore not broken?
blastbones isn't worse than any other skills in the game. it has its *** ups in lag, but it works fine enough outside of prime time. just like every other class.
If you are making such allegations, show us an up-to-date video of a necro in cyrodiil that straight up faces and gangs up 20 ppl alone, and I promise you that I will delete my account. I am not talking about tanky builds who troll people around (usually in towers), use environment to their advantage and maybe kill a few squishy players before getting killed eventually. You can do this with other classes as well. In fact, it is common with wardens nowadays. There is no single build or person who can straight up attack 20 players and "gang" them up on their own. Alternatively, you can show us a video of a necro getting ganked by 20 players, not die and kill the attackers alone. Same thing. There is no such thing. There are several builds out there that can match a necro. Thus, this whole suggestion is a "nerf this and that" request in a fancy package.
Read his post again he never said necro will ever get a 1v20.
He said that your argument about necro being balanced because you can zerg it down is bad.
If you have to zerg down regular non tank builds and have no chance of killing them otherwise there's a balance issue.
Did you read my post? I told him to show us a video of either scenario. Your claims are empty until you prove it with a video of a necro killing 20 ppl in a 20v1 against a necro, or vice versa, or any video a necro just walks away from a 20v1fight without any efforts or without just running away, using environment to his advantage and kill 1-2 players while doing so before eventually getting killed or escapes. There is a clear 20v1 allegation and naturally one is supposed to prove it. Otherwise, we don't need populist discourses here with an intention of rallying people on unfounded grounds. Furthermore, I repeat what I said about necro being perfectly killable, in fact, more so than wardens nowadays. Do you see me make allegations about 20v1 with wardens? Granted, necro can be a little more tanky, but that doesn't mean it is tanky and can kill everyone in its path at the same time. If a person chooses to play a tanky troll build, it is his choice and if you can't kill him alone, you move on and ignore the troll. Just because he is able to kill 1-2 players who are alone doesn't make him a tank build with crazy damage. I think you need to be aware of this distinction before you make such claims. If you remember when templars had ranged execute ability and literally 80% of players were running templars in Cyrodiil, that is what a true "overpowered/unbalanced" class is.
I would have believed in your sincerity and accuracy in your suggestion if you had proposed that necro should have been fine-tuned a little further and be given more class identity. But in this state of your suggestion as it is, this is still a "nerf this/nerf that" request.
You should strive for making suggestions to improve things, not pull certain things -or classes in this case- down.2 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Knockmaker wrote: »Knockmaker wrote: »Knockmaker wrote: »Knockmaker wrote: »I disagree. If the blastbones wasn't this clunky and worked properly, I would have agreed that it might be slightly more advantageous in some aspects, but in this state. It does fine. I have been playing pvp for quite a while now and lately I haven't seen any particular necromancer that couldn't be killed by 2 good players and is both tanky and deals crazy damage. I disagree that is is OP and also I am against any more "pls nerf this and that" suggestions.
so necro is fine because it only needs 2 good players to be killed?
If it wasn't clear enough for you, I was obviously referring to OP players on necro classes. You can tweeze a couple of words from an entire paragraph as much as you want, but it is not gonna change the fact that even the most troll/tanky necro builds are killable. And same goes with other classes as well. Depending on your play style, you can make a tanky/troll build from necros/dragonknights/wardens and even templars too. Even then, if they are not back up by their teammates, you can still kill them. It is not a matter of necro being OP, it is just the way things are atm (not defending tanky/troll builds, but given with the right setup, it is possible. Maybe a further tuning of gears might address this, tho it isn't as bad as it was before proc sets were readjusted).
Also, try playing a necro and using Blastbones. Then let us know how frustrating it is because it usually doesn't do its job. Let them fix things first, then let's see how every class performs, and then if there is a need, they can focus on balancing things.
But with they way things are, it is a no no for any nerfs.
so you're saying that because you can gang up 20v1 on a necro, it is therefore not broken?
blastbones isn't worse than any other skills in the game. it has its *** ups in lag, but it works fine enough outside of prime time. just like every other class.
If you are making such allegations, show us an up-to-date video of a necro in cyrodiil that straight up faces and gangs up 20 ppl alone, and I promise you that I will delete my account. I am not talking about tanky builds who troll people around (usually in towers), use environment to their advantage and maybe kill a few squishy players before getting killed eventually. You can do this with other classes as well. In fact, it is common with wardens nowadays. There is no single build or person who can straight up attack 20 players and "gang" them up on their own. Alternatively, you can show us a video of a necro getting ganked by 20 players, not die and kill the attackers alone. Same thing. There is no such thing. There are several builds out there that can match a necro. Thus, this whole suggestion is a "nerf this and that" request in a fancy package.
Read his post again he never said necro will ever get a 1v20.
He said that your argument about necro being balanced because you can zerg it down is bad.
If you have to zerg down regular non tank builds and have no chance of killing them otherwise there's a balance issue.
Did you read my post? I told him to show us a video of either scenario. Your claims are empty until you prove it with a video of a necro killing 20 ppl in a 20v1 against a necro, or vice versa, or any video a necro just walks away from a 20v1fight without any efforts or without just running away, using environment to his advantage and kill 1-2 players while doing so before eventually getting killed or escapes. There is a clear 20v1 allegation and naturally one is supposed to prove it. Otherwise, we don't need populist discourses here with an intention of rallying people on unfounded grounds. Furthermore, I repeat what I said about necro being perfectly killable, in fact, more so than wardens nowadays. Do you see me make allegations about 20v1 with wardens? Granted, necro can be a little more tanky, but that doesn't mean it is tanky and can kill everyone in its path at the same time. If a person chooses to play a tanky troll build, it is his choice and if you can't kill him alone, you move on and ignore the troll. Just because he is able to kill 1-2 players who are alone doesn't make him a tank build with crazy damage. I think you need to be aware of this distinction before you make such claims. If you remember when templars had ranged execute ability and literally 80% of players were running templars in Cyrodiil, that is what a true "overpowered/unbalanced" class is.
I would have believed in your sincerity and accuracy in your suggestion if you had proposed that necro should have been fine-tuned a little further and be given more class identity. But in this state of your suggestion as it is, this is still a "nerf this/nerf that" request.
You should strive for making suggestions to improve things, not pull certain things -or classes in this case- down.
You still haven't understood what he has written.
"so you're saying that because you can gang up 20v1 on a necro, it is therefore not broken?"
This doesn't mean that he claims that necro can take on 20 people, he says explicitly that necros will die in that situation.
[snip]
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 11, 2021 10:32AM3 -
Knockmaker✭✭✭✭Knockmaker wrote: »Knockmaker wrote: »Knockmaker wrote: »Knockmaker wrote: »I disagree. If the blastbones wasn't this clunky and worked properly, I would have agreed that it might be slightly more advantageous in some aspects, but in this state. It does fine. I have been playing pvp for quite a while now and lately I haven't seen any particular necromancer that couldn't be killed by 2 good players and is both tanky and deals crazy damage. I disagree that is is OP and also I am against any more "pls nerf this and that" suggestions.
so necro is fine because it only needs 2 good players to be killed?
If it wasn't clear enough for you, I was obviously referring to OP players on necro classes. You can tweeze a couple of words from an entire paragraph as much as you want, but it is not gonna change the fact that even the most troll/tanky necro builds are killable. And same goes with other classes as well. Depending on your play style, you can make a tanky/troll build from necros/dragonknights/wardens and even templars too. Even then, if they are not back up by their teammates, you can still kill them. It is not a matter of necro being OP, it is just the way things are atm (not defending tanky/troll builds, but given with the right setup, it is possible. Maybe a further tuning of gears might address this, tho it isn't as bad as it was before proc sets were readjusted).
Also, try playing a necro and using Blastbones. Then let us know how frustrating it is because it usually doesn't do its job. Let them fix things first, then let's see how every class performs, and then if there is a need, they can focus on balancing things.
But with they way things are, it is a no no for any nerfs.
so you're saying that because you can gang up 20v1 on a necro, it is therefore not broken?
blastbones isn't worse than any other skills in the game. it has its *** ups in lag, but it works fine enough outside of prime time. just like every other class.
If you are making such allegations, show us an up-to-date video of a necro in cyrodiil that straight up faces and gangs up 20 ppl alone, and I promise you that I will delete my account. I am not talking about tanky builds who troll people around (usually in towers), use environment to their advantage and maybe kill a few squishy players before getting killed eventually. You can do this with other classes as well. In fact, it is common with wardens nowadays. There is no single build or person who can straight up attack 20 players and "gang" them up on their own. Alternatively, you can show us a video of a necro getting ganked by 20 players, not die and kill the attackers alone. Same thing. There is no such thing. There are several builds out there that can match a necro. Thus, this whole suggestion is a "nerf this and that" request in a fancy package.
Read his post again he never said necro will ever get a 1v20.
He said that your argument about necro being balanced because you can zerg it down is bad.
If you have to zerg down regular non tank builds and have no chance of killing them otherwise there's a balance issue.
Did you read my post? I told him to show us a video of either scenario. Your claims are empty until you prove it with a video of a necro killing 20 ppl in a 20v1 against a necro, or vice versa, or any video a necro just walks away from a 20v1fight without any efforts or without just running away, using environment to his advantage and kill 1-2 players while doing so before eventually getting killed or escapes. There is a clear 20v1 allegation and naturally one is supposed to prove it. Otherwise, we don't need populist discourses here with an intention of rallying people on unfounded grounds. Furthermore, I repeat what I said about necro being perfectly killable, in fact, more so than wardens nowadays. Do you see me make allegations about 20v1 with wardens? Granted, necro can be a little more tanky, but that doesn't mean it is tanky and can kill everyone in its path at the same time. If a person chooses to play a tanky troll build, it is his choice and if you can't kill him alone, you move on and ignore the troll. Just because he is able to kill 1-2 players who are alone doesn't make him a tank build with crazy damage. I think you need to be aware of this distinction before you make such claims. If you remember when templars had ranged execute ability and literally 80% of players were running templars in Cyrodiil, that is what a true "overpowered/unbalanced" class is.
I would have believed in your sincerity and accuracy in your suggestion if you had proposed that necro should have been fine-tuned a little further and be given more class identity. But in this state of your suggestion as it is, this is still a "nerf this/nerf that" request.
You should strive for making suggestions to improve things, not pull certain things -or classes in this case- down.
You still haven't understood what he has written.
"so you're saying that because you can gang up 20v1 on a necro, it is therefore not broken?"
This doesn't mean that he claims that necro can take on 20 people, he says explicitly that necros will die in that situation.
[snip]
This could have been a civil, and even a fruitful discussion if you hadn't picked my words, commented on a certain part of what I said and not ignored the rest where I actually included other scenarios/outcomes which all lead to same thing. But you chose ad hominem. Very well, carry on. Good luck!
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 11, 2021 10:33AM4 -
Rasande_Robin✭✭✭✭Feelings:
I used to do all kinds of PvP with my Necromancer but I stopped. Mostly because the majority of situations, it is not fun or fair to be in.
Analogy:
Necromancer is like the fat kid in school. Sorc is the bully throwing pebbles at you and taunting you, knowing that he can out-run you every single time. So to be fair Necromancers utility needs them to basically win 99% of the time, because they can never pick and choose their battles. With limited LOS because of beams their mitigation needs to be a lot higher on paper.
Unreasonable PvP expectations:
Only a dream scenario is when you have a 1v1, where the opponent can't escape you and/or reset the fight.
Measuring Necromancers strength due to Duels is completely missleading. Any build/setup can cause a stalemate depending on how you prioritise offence/defence/sustain.
Reasonable PvP expectations:
You will most likely be outnumbered two or more players with equal skill as you approach, you're doomed. They cross support/peel for each other making it impossible to land combos.
Mitigation numbers mean nothing if you have other forms to completly avoid damage.
My top PvP pick:
If you're a solo mostly like me. But wanna team up every now and then, Sorc is the best option for you. If you're alone and wanna get away from X. Streak twice (First is through your opponent the second is distance) and pop an invisibility potion. If teamed up you have the best anti-healer skill in game making people actually die (negate). Just as a few Necroes are a must for PvE a few Sorc's are a must for PvP to counter healing.
Agreement:
I do agree with the thread about remaking Necromancer. There are must have skills and detested skills. Move some power from one to the other and/or remake them. Make utility that fully avoid damage rather than mitigation on paper.
Sorry:
For my rant.PC/EU: Orcana "something"-stone3
