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Crit Normalization
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WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It sounded strange at first, but the more I think about these passives the more I like them. Basically there are 4 stats to split between Medium and Light Armor, and if the goal is to make each unique and choose the best place for each stat, then I think the devs hit the nail on the head.
6-7% Crit Chance: Stamina builds have an easier time building this, with better crit sets, and easier access to dagger and bow critical passives. Magicka needs this stat more.
12-14% Crit Damage: Because Stamina has an easier time building crit chance (even after these changes) they benefit more from crit damage. In Magicka groups there’s always the option to have a DPS slot Elemental Catalyst (stam groups struggle to fit all the support sets in 12 man content, and there’s no way in 4 man).
5634-6573 Penetration: Similar to the EC point above, a Stamina group has the option to run an Alkosh DPS build for 6000 pen now, while Magicka groups may have a hard time fitting this on a tank (especially after the PA buff). If needed, Stamina builds also have access to better penetration sets than Magicka, as well as skills like PotL and Crystal Weapon for armor debuffs. Light Armor is also apparently intended as the counter to heavy armor in the new combat triangle. Overall Magicka needs penetration more than Stamina.
12-14% Weapon/Spell Damage: This seems to be the most debatable stat. Stam can get a better multiplier already from Fighter’s Guild passives, but Magicka makes up for this with a larger Mag pool and sets like Siroria, BSW or Spell Strat (although these are uncommon in the Bahsei + crit set meta). I suspect it was given to stamina to balance the fact that Magicka got crit chance and penetration, and because players are used to seeing high weapon damage on medium armor builds.2 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »It sounded strange at first, but the more I think about these passives the more I like them. Basically there are 4 stats to split between Medium and Light Armor, and if the goal is to make each unique and choose the best place for each stat, then I think the devs hit the nail on the head.
6-7% Crit Chance: Stamina builds have an easier time building this, with better crit sets, and easier access to dagger and bow critical passives. Magicka needs this stat more.
12-14% Crit Damage: Because Stamina has an easier time building crit chance (even after these changes) they benefit more from crit damage. In Magicka groups there’s always the option to have a DPS slot Elemental Catalyst (stam groups struggle to fit all the support sets in 12 man content, and there’s no way in 4 man).
5634-6573 Penetration: Similar to the EC point above, a Stamina group has the option to run an Alkosh DPS build for 6000 pen now, while Magicka groups may have a hard time fitting this on a tank (especially after the PA buff). If needed, Stamina builds also have access to better penetration sets than Magicka, as well as skills like PotL and Crystal Weapon for armor debuffs. Light Armor is also apparently intended as the counter to heavy armor in the new combat triangle. Overall Magicka needs penetration more than Stamina.
12-14% Weapon/Spell Damage: This seems to be the most debatable stat. Stam can get a better multiplier already from Fighter’s Guild passives, but Magicka makes up for this with a larger Mag pool and sets like Siroria, BSW or Spell Strat (although these are uncommon in the Bahsei + crit set meta). I suspect it was given to stamina to balance the fact that Magicka got crit chance and penetration, and because players are used to seeing high weapon damage on medium armor builds.
@WrathOfInnos I think the bigger issue Wrath is in the broader sense. As they've gone through their "normalization" and various adjustments to a lot of different stats, two stats came out leaps and bounds as the "best" - crit strike and penetration. Not having to itemize for or build supports around penetration opens up a lot of avenues for many more buff sets. Not having to itemize around crit enables sets like Bahsei, Diamond's Victory and others to shine. Damage as a raw stat has become less appealing with the massive amounts given to us with the stat revision.
It just feels like Mag got by far the better end of the armor passive trade. If Stam had Pen + Crit Scaling and Mag had Crit + Damage, I'd feel a lot better about it overall.Edited by Skjaldbjorn on July 12, 2021 11:58PM2 -
llBlack_Heartll✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »It sounded strange at first, but the more I think about these passives the more I like them. Basically there are 4 stats to split between Medium and Light Armor, and if the goal is to make each unique and choose the best place for each stat, then I think the devs hit the nail on the head.
6-7% Crit Chance: Stamina builds have an easier time building this, with better crit sets, and easier access to dagger and bow critical passives. Magicka needs this stat more.
12-14% Crit Damage: Because Stamina has an easier time building crit chance (even after these changes) they benefit more from crit damage. In Magicka groups there’s always the option to have a DPS slot Elemental Catalyst (stam groups struggle to fit all the support sets in 12 man content, and there’s no way in 4 man).
5634-6573 Penetration: Similar to the EC point above, a Stamina group has the option to run an Alkosh DPS build for 6000 pen now, while Magicka groups may have a hard time fitting this on a tank (especially after the PA buff). If needed, Stamina builds also have access to better penetration sets than Magicka, as well as skills like PotL and Crystal Weapon for armor debuffs. Light Armor is also apparently intended as the counter to heavy armor in the new combat triangle. Overall Magicka needs penetration more than Stamina.
12-14% Weapon/Spell Damage: This seems to be the most debatable stat. Stam can get a better multiplier already from Fighter’s Guild passives, but Magicka makes up for this with a larger Mag pool and sets like Siroria, BSW or Spell Strat (although these are uncommon in the Bahsei + crit set meta). I suspect it was given to stamina to balance the fact that Magicka got crit chance and penetration, and because players are used to seeing high weapon damage on medium armor builds.
Stam is already so far behind Mag. Look at any groups running they all want Mag.
As a Tank I’m not going to slot Alkosh just so 1 or 2 Stam plays can try and reach cap and let Mag way over pen.
Stam have so many limitation, as they require to be in close range and most mechanics don’t cater to proximity.
DPS test show Mag and Stam close, so it’s irrelevant change drama bonuses. Now they are worse.
7 -
vgabor✭✭✭✭✭
✭Prodigy: Now grants equal Critical Chance.
Dexterity: Now increases Critical Damage and Healing Done per piece worn, up to 2% at the final rank, rather than Weapon Critical (as Prodigy now grants Weapon Critical as well)
The big problem with stamina currently is not that whether they have critical chance or critical damage, but that they have no penetration so they have to build for penetration too which reduces their ability to catch up to the magic magicka builds which only have to care about critical.
Solution is kinda simple, even if not that obvious and have nothing to do with which kind of critical the dexterity passive grant. Simply need to put penetration equivalent to the light armor passive into the dexterity passive as well: "... and increases your weapon penetration by 939 for each piece worn" (with rank up 313 at rank 1, 626 at rank 2 and 939 at rank 3)
That way light armor builds grant critical chance and spell penetration while medium armor builds grant critical damage and weapon penetration, so both armor type only have to compensate for one missing buff
3 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Prodigy: Now grants equal Critical Chance.
Dexterity: Now increases Critical Damage and Healing Done per piece worn, up to 2% at the final rank, rather than Weapon Critical (as Prodigy now grants Weapon Critical as well)
The big problem with stamina currently is not that whether they have critical chance or critical damage, but that they have no penetration so they have to build for penetration too which reduces their ability to catch up to the magic magicka builds which only have to care about critical.
Solution is kinda simple, even if not that obvious and have nothing to do with which kind of critical the dexterity passive grant. Simply need to put penetration equivalent to the light armor passive into the dexterity passive as well: "... and increases your weapon penetration by 939 for each piece worn" (with rank up 313 at rank 1, 626 at rank 2 and 939 at rank 3)
That way light armor builds grant critical chance and spell penetration while medium armor builds grant critical damage and weapon penetration, so both armor type only have to compensate for one missing buff
If you're talking PVE then that problem will be solved in a few weeks. Crimson Oath is 3.5k penetration, and Alkosh was buffed to 6k. There are a lot of ways to easily get over 18.2k without relying on things like Lover or Sharpened. I also think Stamina meta will likely wear 1 piece light armor, since it gives them 1% crit chance, 2% stam, 2% health, and 939 penetration.llBlack_Heartll wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »It sounded strange at first, but the more I think about these passives the more I like them. Basically there are 4 stats to split between Medium and Light Armor, and if the goal is to make each unique and choose the best place for each stat, then I think the devs hit the nail on the head.
6-7% Crit Chance: Stamina builds have an easier time building this, with better crit sets, and easier access to dagger and bow critical passives. Magicka needs this stat more.
12-14% Crit Damage: Because Stamina has an easier time building crit chance (even after these changes) they benefit more from crit damage. In Magicka groups there’s always the option to have a DPS slot Elemental Catalyst (stam groups struggle to fit all the support sets in 12 man content, and there’s no way in 4 man).
5634-6573 Penetration: Similar to the EC point above, a Stamina group has the option to run an Alkosh DPS build for 6000 pen now, while Magicka groups may have a hard time fitting this on a tank (especially after the PA buff). If needed, Stamina builds also have access to better penetration sets than Magicka, as well as skills like PotL and Crystal Weapon for armor debuffs. Light Armor is also apparently intended as the counter to heavy armor in the new combat triangle. Overall Magicka needs penetration more than Stamina.
12-14% Weapon/Spell Damage: This seems to be the most debatable stat. Stam can get a better multiplier already from Fighter’s Guild passives, but Magicka makes up for this with a larger Mag pool and sets like Siroria, BSW or Spell Strat (although these are uncommon in the Bahsei + crit set meta). I suspect it was given to stamina to balance the fact that Magicka got crit chance and penetration, and because players are used to seeing high weapon damage on medium armor builds.
Stam is already so far behind Mag. Look at any groups running they all want Mag.
As a Tank I’m not going to slot Alkosh just so 1 or 2 Stam plays can try and reach cap and let Mag way over pen.
Stam have so many limitation, as they require to be in close range and most mechanics don’t cater to proximity.
DPS test show Mag and Stam close, so it’s irrelevant change drama bonuses. Now they are worse.
I mean, if your group is centered around supporting Magicka DPS and not Stamina, then yes the Magicka are going to look much better. Try running Alkosh + Hircines + Morag Tong without Worm + Hollowfang + Engulfing Flames + Encratis and see how that table turns
Skjaldbjorn wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »It sounded strange at first, but the more I think about these passives the more I like them. Basically there are 4 stats to split between Medium and Light Armor, and if the goal is to make each unique and choose the best place for each stat, then I think the devs hit the nail on the head.
6-7% Crit Chance: Stamina builds have an easier time building this, with better crit sets, and easier access to dagger and bow critical passives. Magicka needs this stat more.
12-14% Crit Damage: Because Stamina has an easier time building crit chance (even after these changes) they benefit more from crit damage. In Magicka groups there’s always the option to have a DPS slot Elemental Catalyst (stam groups struggle to fit all the support sets in 12 man content, and there’s no way in 4 man).
5634-6573 Penetration: Similar to the EC point above, a Stamina group has the option to run an Alkosh DPS build for 6000 pen now, while Magicka groups may have a hard time fitting this on a tank (especially after the PA buff). If needed, Stamina builds also have access to better penetration sets than Magicka, as well as skills like PotL and Crystal Weapon for armor debuffs. Light Armor is also apparently intended as the counter to heavy armor in the new combat triangle. Overall Magicka needs penetration more than Stamina.
12-14% Weapon/Spell Damage: This seems to be the most debatable stat. Stam can get a better multiplier already from Fighter’s Guild passives, but Magicka makes up for this with a larger Mag pool and sets like Siroria, BSW or Spell Strat (although these are uncommon in the Bahsei + crit set meta). I suspect it was given to stamina to balance the fact that Magicka got crit chance and penetration, and because players are used to seeing high weapon damage on medium armor builds.
@WrathOfInnos I think the bigger issue Wrath is in the broader sense. As they've gone through their "normalization" and various adjustments to a lot of different stats, two stats came out leaps and bounds as the "best" - crit strike and penetration. Not having to itemize for or build supports around penetration opens up a lot of avenues for many more buff sets. Not having to itemize around crit enables sets like Bahsei, Diamond's Victory and others to shine. Damage as a raw stat has become less appealing with the massive amounts given to us with the stat revision.
It just feels like Mag got by far the better end of the armor passive trade. If Stam had Pen + Crit Scaling and Mag had Crit + Damage, I'd feel a lot better about it overall.
Mag getting crit damage wouldn't make any sense though. In the current trials meta, Magicka DPS builds have about 66% to 75% average crit chance (depending whether they choose Diamond's Victory + Bahsei or Medusa + Bahsei). Stamina trials meta (Rele + AY) has about 90% crit chance. Now if the decision had already been made to convert something to crit damage, so that hybrid armor bonuses could exist without redundancies, and someone had to pick one of the two builds above to lose 6-7% crit chance, the answer is pretty obvious. You don't take crit chance from the one that's already ~20% behind, you take a small step toward equalizing crit chance, and give the new crit damage to the build that can better utilize it (because they will still have higher crit chance after the change).
Magicka also have higher crit damage in a lot of situations. I mentioned that they can run EC (and should if there is at least one other DPS around benefitting from it). I'm sure you're aware of the pain point of Wardens, where Stamden has high crit chance, but struggles to proc minor brittle or their crit damage class passive. Magden on the other hand can easily get 20% crit damage, but in doing so they have to run Charged trait, giving up Precise and having no crit chance to capitalize on the extra damage. Warden may actually be the best example why Mag should get more crit chance, and stam should get more crit damage, but I think it applies to other classes nearly as well.
If we want to talk magnitude of bonuses that's a different story. It's day one of patch, so I have no idea how overall balance is between Mag and Stam. I think it's probably closer than on live, but we'll find out soon enough. Maybe it ends up that medium armor needs 3% weapon/spell damage per piece to compete with light armor's 929 penetration. All I'm saying is that the stats chosen were the correct ones IMO, and balance can be tweaked from here.Edited by WrathOfInnos on July 13, 2021 3:44AM2 -
Iki✭✭✭Prodigy: Now grants equal Critical Chance.
Dexterity: Now increases Critical Damage and Healing Done per piece worn, up to 2% at the final rank, rather than Weapon Critical (as Prodigy now grants Weapon Critical as well)
The big problem with stamina currently is not that whether they have critical chance or critical damage, but that they have no penetration so they have to build for penetration too which reduces their ability to catch up to the magic magicka builds which only have to care about critical.
Solution is kinda simple, even if not that obvious and have nothing to do with which kind of critical the dexterity passive grant. Simply need to put penetration equivalent to the light armor passive into the dexterity passive as well: "... and increases your weapon penetration by 939 for each piece worn" (with rank up 313 at rank 1, 626 at rank 2 and 939 at rank 3)
That way light armor builds grant critical chance and spell penetration while medium armor builds grant critical damage and weapon penetration, so both armor type only have to compensate for one missing buff
NO. They can`t give stamina-builds more penetration for pvp reasons.0 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm not sure how high end players think this would effect their builds, but to me it seems a good place to allow for more variety and make up the weaknesses of either armor, whether these changes go live or not, is to add new jewelry enchantments for crit chance, possibly penetration as well.
For 7 years we've only had damage, which stamina builds already have in abundance.Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.1 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »Mag getting crit damage wouldn't make any sense though. In the current trials meta, Magicka DPS builds have about 66% to 75% average crit chance (depending whether they choose Diamond's Victory + Bahsei or Medusa + Bahsei). Stamina trials meta (Rele + AY) has about 90% crit chance. Now if the decision had already been made to convert something to crit damage, so that hybrid armor bonuses could exist without redundancies, and someone had to pick one of the two builds above to lose 6-7% crit chance, the answer is pretty obvious. You don't take crit chance from the one that's already ~20% behind, you take a small step toward equalizing crit chance, and give the new crit damage to the build that can better utilize it (because they will still have higher crit chance after the change).
Magicka also have higher crit damage in a lot of situations. I mentioned that they can run EC (and should if there is at least one other DPS around benefitting from it). I'm sure you're aware of the pain point of Wardens, where Stamden has high crit chance, but struggles to proc minor brittle or their crit damage class passive. Magden on the other hand can easily get 20% crit damage, but in doing so they have to run Charged trait, giving up Precise and having no crit chance to capitalize on the extra damage. Warden may actually be the best example why Mag should get more crit chance, and stam should get more crit damage, but I think it applies to other classes nearly as well.
Think you misread my guy. I was saying Crit + Damage for Mag, and then Crit Damage + Pen for Stam.If we want to talk magnitude of bonuses that's a different story. It's day one of patch, so I have no idea how overall balance is between Mag and Stam. I think it's probably closer than on live, but we'll find out soon enough. Maybe it ends up that medium armor needs 3% weapon/spell damage per piece to compete with light armor's 929 penetration. All I'm saying is that the stats chosen were the correct ones IMO, and balance can be tweaked from here.
In all the testing and discussions I've had, it seems Stam will get directly pigeon-holed into AY/Rele with a Precise maul to try and compensate for the losses. All stam groups aren't overly functional, but mixed comps are really solid as all Stam needs as far as support is Tremor + Maul or sharp, which isn't a massive, crushing difference. I think thematically Penetration fits neither theme at all, as armor literally has nothing to do with penetration. Penetration should exist exclusively in weapon traits/passives. It's insane to me anyone thinks a robe somehow reduces enemy resistance lol
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llBlack_Heartll✭✭✭✭
Mag getting crit damage wouldn't make any sense though. In the current trials meta, Magicka DPS builds have about 66% to 75% average crit chance (depending whether they choose Diamond's Victory + Bahsei or Medusa + Bahsei). Stamina trials meta (Rele + AY) has about 90% crit chance. Now if the decision had already been made to convert something to crit damage, so that hybrid armor bonuses could exist without redundancies, and someone had to pick one of the two builds above to lose 6-7% crit chance, the answer is pretty obvious. You don't take crit chance from the one that's already ~20% behind, you take a small step toward equalizing crit chance, and give the new crit damage to the build that can better utilize it (because they will still have higher crit chance after the change).
You are way off with your maths.
1. Stam don’t get invited to trials.
2. There is no way they are hitting 90% crit chance.
3. Dps test on a dummy stat that Mag and Stam out put nearly the same about of DPS. So it makes it irrelevant, if Stam do have higher crit, which mag isn’t far off anyways.
4. Mag is more favourable because the can play at range and continue damage, while going through mechanics.
Edited by llBlack_Heartll on July 13, 2021 5:43AM1 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭I'm kinda with Wrath and Mashmallo that I like the idea behind the change - split the four damage oriented bonuses between light and medium instead of duplicating a bonus on both to keep a bit of distinction.
But it needs to be possible for each type to get the missing bonuses if they want/need them. And this is where there some practical issues given the current meta and group buffs, because there is a lot of inconsistency in the availability of the four damage stats from other sources.
Almost all sources of crit damage don't have to be built for specifically and there aren't many instances where crit chance and crit damage compete for the same spot, with the exception of mundus (thief vs shadow) and weapon type (axe vs dagger). Instead there are a bunch of places where we get crit damage basically unopposed, such as passives, the group and CP, none of which cannot be substituted for crit chance. Which then means we are restricted to use other places to get crit chance, being mundus, traits, sets. Which pigeonholes those choices. Having more places where crit chance and crit damage can both be built for would give more flexibility in where to get crit chance if you need it instead of crit damage.
As an example: What if there was a warfare slottable crit chance CP star of ~6-7% crit chance. (not sure what the exact value would need to be)
This would mean medium builds could give up one of the crit damage stars (which they now get from armour instead) and get crit chance from CP, effectively putting their chance and crit damage back where they were prior to the change (closer to the optimisation point).
The only difference would be that now medium has the potential to go all in on crit damage with a higher maximum, whereas light armour has the potential to go all in on critical chance. However, as we know when optimising it is better to balance the two so each will likely get the missing stat instead. But it may be the case for some specific builds that they may want to go all in, that option is now available.
It doesn't have to be a CP star, that was just an easy example, just needs to be another option that players have the ability to get crit chance where currently they get crit damage, or perhaps simply instead of damage (maybe jewellery glyphs?).
Edited by ExistingRug61 on July 13, 2021 6:14AM2 -
5_RAGEsMW✭✭✭The changes to medium's dexterity passive are terrible. You are basically forcing people to just run daggers in pve and pvp. Then I heard someone one type "medium is supposed to be sneaky" what???? uh.... no the only class that does that is stam NB and even as stam nb main myself I dont even do that nor stam wardens, stamcros, stam dks, stam templars.pvp sucks.0 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭llBlack_Heartll wrote: »You are way off with your maths.
1. Stam don’t get invited to trials.
2. There is no way they are hitting 90% crit chance.
3. Dps test on a dummy stat that Mag and Stam out put nearly the same about of DPS. So it makes it irrelevant, if Stam do have higher crit, which mag isn’t far off anyways.
4. Mag is more favourable because the can play at range and continue damage, while going through mechanics.
It’s easy to check the crit of both builds and see the difference. Have you looked at public logs? Here’s a stamcro in the top 10 on Captain Vrol, wearing Rele + AY + Kilt + Slime and getting right around 90% crit (which is extra impressive considering the greatsword front bar instead of daggers, but I guess Necro crit passives are still helping a little). https://www.esologs.com/reports/bkt8F9cmDZCMpWJH#fight=61&type=damage-done&source=6
I prefer mag, and play it much more often than my stamina characters. I also run a Magicka trial group that often ends up with a couple stamcros or a stamplar because they can be strong and useful, even when group buffs are not in their favor.0 -
Bl4ckR3alm93✭✭✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »
Right like ZoS maybe I dont know.....
Separately balance PVE and PVP 🤔? Seems obvious to me0 -
Grandchamp1989✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Mag already spec for crit (mother's etc) so they would benefit more from crit dmg
Stam struggle with getting their crit chance up so would benefit more from crit chance. That way they don't have to spec into crit chance and can instead spec into penetration.
They need to switch them around for Mag and Stam.1 -
Bl4ckR3alm93✭✭✭Grandchamp1989 wrote: »Mag already spec for crit (mother's etc) so they would benefit more from crit dmg
Stam struggle with getting their crit chance up so would benefit more from crit chance. That way they don't have to spec into crit chance and can instead spec into penetration.
They need to switch them around for Mag and Stam.
If this goes live then the CP crit chance passive needs to be buffed or leave it alone.0 -
RandomKodiak✭✭✭✭✭Ok actual tests and cmxs for people to see
My Stamsorc bow/bow Live
PTS just now
Double 2hander Live
Double 2hander PTS
There will be adjustments needed but both sets are Kinras's and Tzogvin's not "the Meta" and both are actual running builds not cheesed way to early to panic people
2 -
NeillMcAttack✭✭✭✭✭
✭You're right when it goes to PvE, but when it goes to PvP its exactly oposite thing. In PvP it's stam which dominates the game.
It’s actually heavy armor that dominates, not medium armor.PC EU - NoCP PvP, is real PvPTiidehunter Nord StamDK EP PvP MainLegion Commander Tresdin Stamplar DC PvE MainSephirith Altmer MagPlar EP Gondar the Bounty Hunter Khajiit StamBlade DCThe Dirge Redguard StamNecro EP Disruptor Stormcrafter Nord StamSorc ADLone Druid Bosmer Stam Warden EP Necro-Phos Argonian MagBlade AD@ McAttack in gamePlayed since beta, and then on console at release, until the game became unplayable on console.0 -
Bl4ckR3alm93✭✭✭NeillMcAttack wrote: »
I completely forgot about that. So what was the point in nerfing the crit chance lol. Wth is ZoS thinking1 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think you people are missing the forest for the trees here. Look at what happens to an actual 6/1 build on PTS compared to Live due to these changes.
For a stam 6/1 MA/LA build:
-5% Crit Chance
+12% Crit Damage and Healing
+930 Pen
For a mag 6/1 LA/MA build:
+2% Spell Damage
+2% Crit Damage and Healing
Based on that, it seems like stam is doing fine.
Another way of looking at it is to compare losing 6% crit chance and gaining 12% crit damage and healing to switching from the thief to the shadow mundus. The mundus swap trades 6% crit chance for only 11% crit damage and healing. If we treat the two mundus stones as equal, this change is actually a buff to stam (and nevermind the fact that in most cases the shadow is already better than the thief).0 -
Bl4ckR3alm93✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you people are missing the forest for the trees here. Look at what happens to an actual 6/1 build on PTS compared to Live due to these changes.
For a stam 6/1 MA/LA build:
-5% Crit Chance
+12% Crit Damage and Healing
+930 Pen
For a mag 6/1 LA/MA build:
+2% Spell Damage
+2% Crit Damage and Healing
Based on that, it seems like stam is doing fine.
Another way of looking at it is to compare losing 6% crit chance and gaining 12% crit damage and healing to switching from the thief to the shadow mundus. The mundus swap trades 6% crit chance for only 11% crit damage and healing. If we treat the two mundus stones as equal, this change is actually a buff to stam (and nevermind the fact that in most cases the shadow is already better than the thief).
So we only lose 5% crit? Because currently dexterity gives 14% crit chance0 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bl4ckR3alm93 wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you people are missing the forest for the trees here. Look at what happens to an actual 6/1 build on PTS compared to Live due to these changes.
For a stam 6/1 MA/LA build:
-5% Crit Chance
+12% Crit Damage and Healing
+930 Pen
For a mag 6/1 LA/MA build:
+2% Spell Damage
+2% Crit Damage and Healing
Based on that, it seems like stam is doing fine.
Another way of looking at it is to compare losing 6% crit chance and gaining 12% crit damage and healing to switching from the thief to the shadow mundus. The mundus swap trades 6% crit chance for only 11% crit damage and healing. If we treat the two mundus stones as equal, this change is actually a buff to stam (and nevermind the fact that in most cases the shadow is already better than the thief).
So we only lose 5% crit? Because currently dexterity gives 14% crit chance
No, it gives 1% per piece of MA, which means if you're in 6/1 you lose 6% from the change to Dexterity and then gain 1% back from the change to Prodigy, totalling a loss of 5%.0 -
Bl4ckR3alm93✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Bl4ckR3alm93 wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you people are missing the forest for the trees here. Look at what happens to an actual 6/1 build on PTS compared to Live due to these changes.
For a stam 6/1 MA/LA build:
-5% Crit Chance
+12% Crit Damage and Healing
+930 Pen
For a mag 6/1 LA/MA build:
+2% Spell Damage
+2% Crit Damage and Healing
Based on that, it seems like stam is doing fine.
Another way of looking at it is to compare losing 6% crit chance and gaining 12% crit damage and healing to switching from the thief to the shadow mundus. The mundus swap trades 6% crit chance for only 11% crit damage and healing. If we treat the two mundus stones as equal, this change is actually a buff to stam (and nevermind the fact that in most cases the shadow is already better than the thief).
So we only lose 5% crit? Because currently dexterity gives 14% crit chance
No, it gives 1% per piece of MA, which means if you're in 6/1 you lose 6% from the change to Dexterity and then gain 1% back from the change to Prodigy, totalling a loss of 5%.
So ZoS didnt completely replace crit chance for medium armor? Sorry im on Console and only read patch notes. I thought we were going to lose 14% in replace of crit damage0 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bl4ckR3alm93 wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Bl4ckR3alm93 wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you people are missing the forest for the trees here. Look at what happens to an actual 6/1 build on PTS compared to Live due to these changes.
For a stam 6/1 MA/LA build:
-5% Crit Chance
+12% Crit Damage and Healing
+930 Pen
For a mag 6/1 LA/MA build:
+2% Spell Damage
+2% Crit Damage and Healing
Based on that, it seems like stam is doing fine.
Another way of looking at it is to compare losing 6% crit chance and gaining 12% crit damage and healing to switching from the thief to the shadow mundus. The mundus swap trades 6% crit chance for only 11% crit damage and healing. If we treat the two mundus stones as equal, this change is actually a buff to stam (and nevermind the fact that in most cases the shadow is already better than the thief).
So we only lose 5% crit? Because currently dexterity gives 14% crit chance
No, it gives 1% per piece of MA, which means if you're in 6/1 you lose 6% from the change to Dexterity and then gain 1% back from the change to Prodigy, totalling a loss of 5%.
So ZoS didnt completely replace crit chance for medium armor? Sorry im on Console and only read patch notes. I thought we were going to lose 14% in replace of crit damage
No, you completely lose the 1% per piece you currently get on live. Your 14% number is old/wrong.Edited by the1andonlyskwex on July 13, 2021 6:44PM1 -
Bl4ckR3alm93✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Bl4ckR3alm93 wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Bl4ckR3alm93 wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you people are missing the forest for the trees here. Look at what happens to an actual 6/1 build on PTS compared to Live due to these changes.
For a stam 6/1 MA/LA build:
-5% Crit Chance
+12% Crit Damage and Healing
+930 Pen
For a mag 6/1 LA/MA build:
+2% Spell Damage
+2% Crit Damage and Healing
Based on that, it seems like stam is doing fine.
Another way of looking at it is to compare losing 6% crit chance and gaining 12% crit damage and healing to switching from the thief to the shadow mundus. The mundus swap trades 6% crit chance for only 11% crit damage and healing. If we treat the two mundus stones as equal, this change is actually a buff to stam (and nevermind the fact that in most cases the shadow is already better than the thief).
So we only lose 5% crit? Because currently dexterity gives 14% crit chance
No, it gives 1% per piece of MA, which means if you're in 6/1 you lose 6% from the change to Dexterity and then gain 1% back from the change to Prodigy, totalling a loss of 5%.
So ZoS didnt completely replace crit chance for medium armor? Sorry im on Console and only read patch notes. I thought we were going to lose 14% in replace of crit damage
No, you completely lose the 1% per piece you currently get on live. Your 14% number is old/wrong.
Ok so I just checked and the 14% is for the weapon damage so your right. Can you do me favor please. Can you put on Tzogvin's with Diamonds Victory or Relequan and tell me what the crit chance is unbuffed?Because now that I think about it, that is a huge buff if you play with the build right0 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bl4ckR3alm93 wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Bl4ckR3alm93 wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Bl4ckR3alm93 wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you people are missing the forest for the trees here. Look at what happens to an actual 6/1 build on PTS compared to Live due to these changes.
For a stam 6/1 MA/LA build:
-5% Crit Chance
+12% Crit Damage and Healing
+930 Pen
For a mag 6/1 LA/MA build:
+2% Spell Damage
+2% Crit Damage and Healing
Based on that, it seems like stam is doing fine.
Another way of looking at it is to compare losing 6% crit chance and gaining 12% crit damage and healing to switching from the thief to the shadow mundus. The mundus swap trades 6% crit chance for only 11% crit damage and healing. If we treat the two mundus stones as equal, this change is actually a buff to stam (and nevermind the fact that in most cases the shadow is already better than the thief).
So we only lose 5% crit? Because currently dexterity gives 14% crit chance
No, it gives 1% per piece of MA, which means if you're in 6/1 you lose 6% from the change to Dexterity and then gain 1% back from the change to Prodigy, totalling a loss of 5%.
So ZoS didnt completely replace crit chance for medium armor? Sorry im on Console and only read patch notes. I thought we were going to lose 14% in replace of crit damage
No, you completely lose the 1% per piece you currently get on live. Your 14% number is old/wrong.
Ok so I just checked and the 14% is for the weapon damage so your right. Can you do me favor please. Can you put on Tzogvin's with Diamonds Victory or Relequan and tell me what the crit chance is unbuffed?Because now that I think about it, that is a huge buff if you play with the build right
I'm a console player too. Hopefully someone else can help you out.0 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Bl4ckR3alm93 wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Bl4ckR3alm93 wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Bl4ckR3alm93 wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »I think you people are missing the forest for the trees here. Look at what happens to an actual 6/1 build on PTS compared to Live due to these changes.
For a stam 6/1 MA/LA build:
-5% Crit Chance
+12% Crit Damage and Healing
+930 Pen
For a mag 6/1 LA/MA build:
+2% Spell Damage
+2% Crit Damage and Healing
Based on that, it seems like stam is doing fine.
Another way of looking at it is to compare losing 6% crit chance and gaining 12% crit damage and healing to switching from the thief to the shadow mundus. The mundus swap trades 6% crit chance for only 11% crit damage and healing. If we treat the two mundus stones as equal, this change is actually a buff to stam (and nevermind the fact that in most cases the shadow is already better than the thief).
So we only lose 5% crit? Because currently dexterity gives 14% crit chance
No, it gives 1% per piece of MA, which means if you're in 6/1 you lose 6% from the change to Dexterity and then gain 1% back from the change to Prodigy, totalling a loss of 5%.
So ZoS didnt completely replace crit chance for medium armor? Sorry im on Console and only read patch notes. I thought we were going to lose 14% in replace of crit damage
No, you completely lose the 1% per piece you currently get on live. Your 14% number is old/wrong.
Ok so I just checked and the 14% is for the weapon damage so your right. Can you do me favor please. Can you put on Tzogvin's with Diamonds Victory or Relequan and tell me what the crit chance is unbuffed?Because now that I think about it, that is a huge buff if you play with the build right
I'm a console player too. Hopefully someone else can help you out.
@Bl4ckR3alm93 Tzog + Rele + Kilt + Slimecraw with Precise Daggers and Thief mundus gives 83.3% crit chance in 7 Medium, or 84.3% in 6 medium + 1 light. If you run 2H front bar then subtract 7.5%. And if you swap Rele to DV subtract another 3%. That also assumes you have access to Major and Minor Savagery.0 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bl4ckR3alm93 wrote: »Grandchamp1989 wrote: »Mag already spec for crit (mother's etc) so they would benefit more from crit dmg
Stam struggle with getting their crit chance up so would benefit more from crit chance. That way they don't have to spec into crit chance and can instead spec into penetration.
They need to switch them around for Mag and Stam.
If this goes live then the CP crit chance passive needs to be buffed or leave it alone.
True, that one and Piercing. 700 simply is not enough to make a difference. And the Max Magicka + Max Stamina passives. Really all of these were much better when they had 4 ranks.0 -
Sun7dance✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭llBlack_Heartll wrote: »[...]
You are way off with your maths.
1. Stam don’t get invited to trials.
2. There is no way they are hitting 90% crit chance.
3. Dps test on a dummy stat that Mag and Stam out put nearly the same about of DPS. So it makes it irrelevant, if Stam do have higher crit, which mag isn’t far off anyways.
4. Mag is more favourable because the can play at range and continue damage, while going through mechanics.
3. That's because all staminas do their dps tests on the raid dummy without any self penetration.
If you now reach 80k, you do less than 80k in real, because the raid dummy grants you full penetration. But you don't have this pen in groups.
So staminas should acutally spend in pen, otherwise it's kind of cheating.
Of course you can do your stamina dps tests on the raid dummy, but only with arround 7k (4k for Nbs) self penetration.
Maybe a little bit more than 6k, because of Cp.
PS5|EU1 -
BattleAxe✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »Bl4ckR3alm93 wrote: »Grandchamp1989 wrote: »Mag already spec for crit (mother's etc) so they would benefit more from crit dmg
Stam struggle with getting their crit chance up so would benefit more from crit chance. That way they don't have to spec into crit chance and can instead spec into penetration.
They need to switch them around for Mag and Stam.
If this goes live then the CP crit chance passive needs to be buffed or leave it alone.
True, that one and Piercing. 700 simply is not enough to make a difference. And the Max Magicka + Max Stamina passives. Really all of these were much better when they had 4 ranks.
I did some math and if main tank runs pierce armor COR infused crusher and tremorscale all stam will need is about 602 penetration to reach 18200 so long as that is still the pen cap for pve.0