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Crit Normalization
Skjaldbjorn
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Prodigy: Now grants equal Critical Chance.
Dexterity: Now increases Critical Damage and Healing Done per piece worn, up to 2% at the final rank, rather than Weapon Critical (as Prodigy now grants Weapon Critical as well)
I fully understand the intended direction here. Allowing more off-meta, less intensely focused builds is fair and something I fully support. However, when altering elements for off-meta increases, it's still important to remember as developers that no matter what you do, a meta will still exist. The meta is already currently very mag-heavy. and moving all armor passive forms of crit to mag simply punishes Stam even harder.
While crit damage is nice, a direct nerf of over 11% crit chance is brutally punishing, especially as Mag are favoring setups like DV/Bahsei, or other low-crit options, while Stam are mostly centered around crit setups with sets like AY. The last Stam set releases have been...not good. We haven't really had a solid, meta-standard Stam set since Lokke. We'll see if the Sul-Xan fixes make that set more viable, but having to play a game of "chase the soul" is probably not going to push that set higher than Rele/AY or other similar setups.
Particularly if the new Pelinal's becomes the meta standard for DPS, which could be a thing depending on stack duration, this could give Mag an even bigger leg up, since Stam have to build around pen capping (which mag really don't, it's all passive), so mag have more room to focus on pure, raw offensive stats. With these changes, a Stam DPS running Whitestrake/Pelinal/Whatever it's called + Rele would be sitting at a baseline of 26.4% crit, or somewhere around there, without buffs or a Precise weapon.
TL;DR This doesn't seem like a good direction for Stam. Obviously testing may prove otherwise, we'll see as the PTS cycle plays out, but please, please keep a very close eye on this, as it might even further tilt the playing field toward Mag and push Stam further out of the meta for no reason.
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Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yea. Feels like they should honestly swap the crit and crit damage on the armor. As it stands, LA is incredibly overloaded with passives for PvE when they are already the go to for PvE due to range requirements anyway (ie no need to give them more supremacy when it’s already there by far).Wuuffyy,
WW/berserker playstyle advocate (I play ALL classes proficiently in PvP outside of WW as well)
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-DM for questions6 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wolf_Watching wrote: »Yea. Feels like they should honestly swap the crit and crit damage on the armor. As it stands, LA is incredibly overloaded with passives for PvE when they are already the go to for PvE due to range requirements anyway (ie no need to give them more supremacy when it’s already there by far).
Honestly, just having both armor types give flat critical is fine. It keeps off-meta builds perfectly viable without punishing either side.8 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Wolf_Watching wrote: »Yea. Feels like they should honestly swap the crit and crit damage on the armor. As it stands, LA is incredibly overloaded with passives for PvE when they are already the go to for PvE due to range requirements anyway (ie no need to give them more supremacy when it’s already there by far).
Honestly, just having both armor types give flat critical is fine. It keeps off-meta builds perfectly viable without punishing either side.
Also, very true. There isn’t a need for critical damage right now anyway. It’s in abundance if you need it (lots of efficient options).Wuuffyy,
WW/berserker playstyle advocate (I play ALL classes proficiently in PvP outside of WW as well)
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-DM for questions1 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You're right when it goes to PvE, but when it goes to PvP its exactly oposite thing. In PvP it's stam which dominates the game.I'm done with this game because of ZOS pushing us into Vengeance, because they don't know how to fix Cyrodiil.1 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭And, as an aside, if they care so much about standardization, off-meta diversity and opening up options, why are LA/MA still resource-exclusive and cost reduction exclusive? Then at least Stam could run around in a dress and be viable.3 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭You're right when it goes to PvE, but when it goes to PvP its exactly oposite thing. In PvP it's stam which dominates the game.
That’s why I suggested a swap or just plain crit for both. That way you aren’t buffing either side of the spectrum.Wuuffyy,
WW/berserker playstyle advocate (I play ALL classes proficiently in PvP outside of WW as well)
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-DM for questions1 -
shrekt4303✭✭In pvp i only have like 33% crit chance anyhow. Ill gladly lose 10% for more damage and heal chance.1 -
prof_doom✭✭✭✭✭Just here to give my full agreement. PVE stamina is essentially already dead in endgame, this is just desecrating the corpse.8
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Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Just here to give my full agreement. PVE stamina is essentially already dead in endgame, this is just desecrating the corpse.
Pissing on the grave. Sad days. As one of a few Stam mains still left, this just pushes me further out the door. I loved the first two patches of the year. Some real good balance directions. This is a giant leap backwards.7 -
shrekt4303✭✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Just here to give my full agreement. PVE stamina is essentially already dead in endgame, this is just desecrating the corpse.
Pissing on the grave. Sad days. As one of a few Stam mains still left, this just pushes me further out the door. I loved the first two patches of the year. Some real good balance directions. This is a giant leap backwards.
I mean, whats stopping stam builds from running light armor now?0 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭shrekt4303 wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Just here to give my full agreement. PVE stamina is essentially already dead in endgame, this is just desecrating the corpse.
Pissing on the grave. Sad days. As one of a few Stam mains still left, this just pushes me further out the door. I loved the first two patches of the year. Some real good balance directions. This is a giant leap backwards.
I mean, whats stopping stam builds from running light armor now?
Sustain. Light Armor still only gives mag recovery and mag cost reduction. If they want to normalize that, it's at least better. However, every medium armor DPS set would become dead. Seems silly.6 -
prof_doom✭✭✭✭✭shrekt4303 wrote: »
I mean, whats stopping stam builds from running light armor now?
The fact that they're not reworking all the mag sets to give spell and weapon crit.
And the sustain, like the guy above said.Edited by prof_doom on July 12, 2021 6:00PM2 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭shrekt4303 wrote: »
I mean, whats stopping stam builds from running light armor now?
The fact that they're not reworking all the mag sets to give spell and weapon crit.
Yeah that's valid as well. Stam would mostly be stuck running crafted sets and 2pc Rele armor, probably. It'd be a damn odd shift.
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MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Why are people saying 11% or 10% crit chance loss due to the change? 1 piece of Medium and Light on live gives 1% critical chance each so at most, Stam toons in PVE will only lose 6% crit chance in favour of 12% crit damage because.... the meta would most likely shift for both sides to go 6/1 instead of 7.
With 6 Medium/1 Light you'd only lose 2% stam cost reduction, 4% stam regen and 2% crit damage for 939 pen, 1% crit chance and 2% max stam/hp/mag from Undaunted. Since stam is already strapped for Pen and Mag already has too much, sacrificing a tiny bit of sustain when sustain is already pretty easy, for the other bonuses more than evens out for both sides.
In regards to which armor type should have which bonus? I see why they chose Medium armor for Crit Damage.- The final bonus for Medium armor is "damage" focussed.
- Medium armor is suppose to be the stealth/sneaking armor type, to which sneaking in this game provides your first attack from stealth a guaranteed crit making Crit Damage much more meaningful than Crit Chance.
- For pve end game: Sets and Weapons in the game for Stam support a more Crit Chance heavy focus, so offering Crit Damage on your armor will better serve stam players since they can better utilize it. Relequen has 2 crit lines, AY offers the highest crit chance 5 piece bonus in the game, Daggers for DW offer Crit Chance and Bow's offer Crit Chance.
Edit: I do see the arguement that being stuck with the 2 meta sets because crit/pen is so low is a bit annoying while mag has a lot more freedom, but at least from a thematical standpoint, their decision makes perfect sense. Like the issue of stam pen being too low, ZOS can introduce more group sets to cover the issues present like the introduction they just made with that 3500 aoe pen tank set or the fact that Alkosh now scales to 6000 pen, not to mention Tremorscale only effecting physical pen. What if they released a weapon crit group buff set for example like how mag has a group 15% crit damage done set.
Anyway, crit chance is the lowest issue on the totem pole for pve stam in endgame, seeing as playing ranged is always going to be in favour vs playing in melee.Edited by MashmalloMan on July 12, 2021 6:23PM3 -
prof_doom✭✭✭✭✭MashmalloMan wrote: »Why are people saying 11% or 10% crit chance loss due to the change?
They're taking crit chance out of medium armor and replacing it with crit damage.
So you're losing all the crit chance from your medium armor.
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MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭shrekt4303 wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Just here to give my full agreement. PVE stamina is essentially already dead in endgame, this is just desecrating the corpse.
Pissing on the grave. Sad days. As one of a few Stam mains still left, this just pushes me further out the door. I loved the first two patches of the year. Some real good balance directions. This is a giant leap backwards.
I mean, whats stopping stam builds from running light armor now?
Running at least 1 piece light on your monster helm while using Kilt or 2 light monster pieces will be the most common option I presume. Sustain is pretty easy nowadays and will get even easier with the new Green tree slottables.
To the other 2 comments, they're referring to using 7 light as a stam player, which is a bit extreme, no one is going to use crafted sets to do that dropping Relequen, that would be where your sustain is nuked. Running 1-2 light pieces is more than likely going to happen.0 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭MashmalloMan wrote: »Why are people saying 11% or 10% crit chance loss due to the change? 1 piece of Medium and Light on live gives 1% critical chance each so at most, Stam toons in PVE will only lose 6% crit chance in favour of 12% crit damage because.... the meta would most likely shift for both sides to go 6/1 instead of 7.
Yeah, had my math wrong. So effectively, at stock, a 7% crit nerf to gain 14% crit damage.With 6 Medium/1 Light you'd only lose 2% stam cost reduction, 4% stam regen and 2% crit damage for 939 pen, 1% crit chance and 2% max stam/hp/mag from Undaunted. Since stam is already strapped for Pen and Mag already has too much, sacrificing a tiny bit of sustain when sustain is already pretty easy, for the other bonuses more than evens out for both sides.
Mag won't go 6/1 unless they're cros, most likely, or running kilt. They already underpen currently after the changes last patch. Dropping another nearly 1k pen for a tiny bit of crit damage wouldn't be a viable trade. It'd only make sense with the kilt. What the changes really effectively did was just buff kilt for mag.In regards to which armor type should have which bonus? I see why they chose Medium armor for Crit Damage.- The final bonus for Medium armor is "damage" focussed.
- Medium armor is suppose to be the stealth/sneaking armor type, to which sneaking in this game provides your first attack from stealth a guaranteed crit making Crit Damage much more meaningful than Crit Chance.
- For pve end game: Sets and Weapons in the game for Stam support a more Crit Chance heavy focus, so offering Crit Damage on your armor will better serve stam players since they can better utilize it. Relequen has 2 crit lines, AY offers the highest crit chance 5 piece bonus in the game, Daggers for DW offer Crit Chance and Bow's offer Crit Chance.
This is mostly just fluff with very little substance tbh. The bonuses in other parts of the tree really aren't relevant here. The "theme" does not trump balance. If balance is hurting, change the theme, not the other way around. While true that Stam sets tend to be more crit focused, AY/Rele is the currently most seen setup. As AY is a heavy set, obviously that means weapons and jewels.
This creates a new problem. Let's say you keep AY for Crit. What light set are you running? Diamond's Victory? Goodbye Relequen, goodbye Minor Slayer. This is a bad direction.Edit: I do see the arguement that being stuck with the 2 meta sets because crit/pen is so low is a bit annoying while mag has a lot more freedom, but at least from a thematical standpoint, their decision makes perfect sense. Like the issue of stam pen being too low, ZOS can introduce more group sets to cover the issues present like the introduction they just made with that 3500 aoe pen tank set or the fact that Alkosh now scales to 6000 pen, not to mention Tremorscale only effecting physical pen. What if they released a weapon crit group buff set for example like how mag has a group 15% crit damage done set.
Thematically it's awful. Why the hell is wearing a robe increasing your penetration? If anything, 2h weapons should ALL give massive passive penetration. That's thematics that make sense. Instead, you're pigeon-holed into a maul if you want pen. What?Anyway, crit chance is the lowest issue on the totem pole for pve stam in endgame, seeing as playing ranged is always going to be in favour vs playing in melee.
Again, this post is purely about the current change. There are plenty of issues hurting Stam, but this just adds salt to the wound for no actual reason.
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MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MashmalloMan wrote: »Why are people saying 11% or 10% crit chance loss due to the change?
They're taking crit chance out of medium armor and replacing it with crit damage.
So you're losing all the crit chance from your medium armor.
Read the rest of my comment and double check the game. Medium and Light armor give 1% crit chance per piece on live. I think some of these comments are thinking of 1-2 updates ago when Light gave 9% for having 5 pieces and Medium gave 1.5% per piece for a total of 10.5% at 7 pieces.
The trade from 1% crit chance to 2% crit damage per piece is more than fair seeing as sources of Crit Chance to Crit Damage are usually at around a 60-70% bump while this trade is double (100%).- Daggers give 3.7% crit chance vs Axes 6% crit damage. (60%)
- Thief gives 9.9% crit chance vs Shadow's 17% crit damage. (70%)
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Luke_Flamesword✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Eh, I'm really tired of all these drastic changes - they change sets, passives, how armor works, traits, etc. It's neverending story and how I'm supposed to gear all my characters with so many dramatic changes every 3 months? If they want to standarize, just make it one big update and shake everything, but do it at once, not in so many small pieces.
And what's worst? We still far awaaaaaaaay from any balance. It's just a mess and after last CP nerfs with just stupid cutting everything in half I just don't believe that they even know what they are doing...PC | EU | DC |Stam Dk Breton6 -
prof_doom✭✭✭✭✭It's fair if you're actually making a choice, like daggers vs axe or thief vs shadow.
Light vs medium isn't a valid choice, unless they're going to adjust every set in the game so that everything gives both stam and mag recovery/max stats, and every set gives weapon and spell crit.
What good is more crit damage if you don't crit?4 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Both weights should give crit chance, or both crit chance and crit damage.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.3 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭What good is more crit damage if you don't crit?
And I think crit accessibility is a discussion here as well compared to crit damage. Most Stam are khajiit for crit scaling. Kilt has crit scaling. Two CPs have crit scaling. This is just punishing Stam to punish Stam while buffing Kilt for mag. This is a pointless direction.4 -
EF321✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It's fair if you're actually making a choice, like daggers vs axe or thief vs shadow.
Light vs medium isn't a valid choice, unless they're going to adjust every set in the game so that everything gives both stam and mag recovery/max stats, and every set gives weapon and spell crit.
What good is more crit damage if you don't crit?
>Crit went from 90% chance to 84%
>Omg I don't crit4 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »This creates a new problem. Let's say you keep AY for Crit. What light set are you running? Diamond's Victory? Goodbye Relequen, goodbye Minor Slayer. This is a bad direction.
@Skjaldbjorn I never suggested using 5-7 light pieces, we're never going to replace Relequen it seems and you'd be giving up 10-14% stam cost reduction + 20-28% stam regen. You can fit 1-2 pieces of light armor via your monster set slots easily. Point is, it's much less than the 10/11% mentioned when you consider everything. It's only like 5-7% crit chance loss for some great bonuses to Crit Damage and Pen which Medium Stam users need.Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Mag won't go 6/1 unless they're cros, most likely, or running kilt. They already underpen currently after the changes last patch. Dropping another nearly 1k pen for a tiny bit of crit damage wouldn't be a viable trade. It'd only make sense with the kilt. What the changes really effectively did was just buff kilt for mag.
How does mag have an issue with pen? They have more than enough using 6 pieces for around 5634 pen + 700 from cp + 9000 from major/minor breach puts them at 15334 pen out of 18200. That's only about 2800 remaining which can be covered by Alkosh, the new tank set for 3500 pen or close to full via infused Crusher. If anything, Mag is looking for excuses to lower their innate pen for other bonuses so the changes to Medium buffing Light is 100% going to put the mag meta in 5/2 or 6/1 which as you mentioned is already happening because of the Kilt anyway.
Also they're not dropping 1k pen for only 2% crit damage, they'd be gaining 2% spell damage and 2% max magicka as well.
But anyway, agree to dissagree. I like the change for theme and identity between the 2 armor types, I think it makes sense.
However, I agree, I don't like being shoehorned into running 2 specific sets and I can see how one would be annoyed since Crit Chance is a lot more universally build friendly than Crit Damage is. Crit Damage's viability is directly tied to how well you can Crit, so not building for Crit Chance would directly effect the passives value while Crit Chance from Light Armor is almost always welcome in any build scenario.
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Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭MashmalloMan wrote: »@Skjaldbjorn I never suggested using 5-7 light pieces, we're never going to replace Relequen it seems and you'd be giving up 10-14% stam cost reduction + 20-28% stam regen. You can fit 1-2 pieces of light armor via your monster set slots easily. Point is, it's much less than the 10/11% mentioned when you consider everything. It's only like 5-7% crit chance loss for some great bonuses to Crit Damage and Pen which Medium Stam users need.
The biggest gap between Stam and Mag currently is indeed pen. This doesn't really solve it, though. Not at all. If you're running kilt, which you will whenever it's viable, the ~930 or so pen doesn't bridge the gap. Sharpened 2h will still be required unless your team runs alkosh. Which brings me to...How does mag have an issue with pen? They have more than enough using 6 pieces for around 5634 pen + 700 from cp + 9000 from major/minor breach puts them at 15334 pen out of 18200. That's only about 2800 remaining which can be covered by Alkosh, the new tank set for 3500 pen or close to full via infused Crusher. If anything, Mag is looking for excuses to lower their innate pen for other bonuses so the changes to Medium buffing Light is 100% going to put the mag meta in 5/2 or 6/1 which as you mentioned is already happening because of the Kilt anyway.
Most optimized raid teams are all mag and have completely dropped alkosh for other support sets. It's not particularly worth it anymore for the ~700 pen gap at 7 light. That means Stam suffer even more if trying to be a one or two of splash currently.However, I agree, I don't like being shoehorned into running 2 specific sets and I can see how one would be annoyed since Crit Chance is a lot more universally build friendly than Crit Damage is. Crit Damage's viability is directly tied to how well you can Crit, so not building for Crit Chance would directly effect the passives value while Crit Chance from Light Armor is almost always welcome in any build scenario.
Stam is already shoehorned, more or less, into those same two sets. This just means our damage is directly cut based on RNG for no reason beyond your ludicrous notion of "theme". Nothing in this game makes thematic sense. Why do Warden bugs cause bleed and not poison? Why do 2hers not increase pen across the board? Why does a robe jack up your penetration? If we're going to use "theme" as a catch-all argument to ever questioning Zos' extremely questionable balance directions, we might as well all quit and go play BDO.
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Nybling✭✭✭✭✭>Crit went from 90% chance to 84%
>Omg I don't crit
Yeah, all those Stamina builds with 90% crit.
Anyway, I think there's ways to approach hybrid builds without setting fire to Medium Armor. I thought a lot of the new Champion Point stuff was supposed to help broaden builds and stuff, but they already took a hacksaw to a lot of the nodes in that.
My .02? Stop taking a sledgehammer to this stuff. Who cares if people are strong in PvE? When you kill play styles with heavy handed nerfing, it's going to make people wonder why they even bother collecting gear sets or trying to put together a build and right now ZOS is just telling everyone "Just play Magicka" which is what this game was when it first came out. Magicka Scrolls Online.Edited by Nybling on July 12, 2021 7:08PMMember, Entropy Rising
- Beta Tester since March 2013.
- Psijic Tester since October 2013
- Veteran Rank 16 once upon a time2 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Alright, so, after some testing, some math, some discussions and looking at things from a wide perspective, this is where I am. This is a nerf. It's not as big of a nerf mathematically as I initially thought, however, it's still a nerf, one that wasn't necessary, and absolutely shoves Stam into a box. Something like;
Precise AY Maul (Bridges pen gap, restores lost crit)
AY Jewels
1pc light Slime
Kilt
5x Rele
And then race would be like, Dark Elf -> Orc -> Redguard prolly, based on your sustain. Unless a wonky ass Khajiit acuity build comes through, that's my prediction for Stam desperately trying to keep their heads above water. The net loss is basically like ~12% crit damage if you were using s 2h axe, or the wep damage from sword. It's a garbage change, but not world-ending.0 -
RogueShark✭✭✭✭✭
✭MashmalloMan wrote: »Like the issue of stam pen being too low, ZOS can introduce more group sets to cover the issues present like the introduction they just made with that 3500 aoe pen tank set or the fact that Alkosh now scales to 6000 pen, not to mention Tremorscale only effecting physical pen.
The problem with this is a lot of groups... have no reason to run support sets that buff penetration. Because, as you said, mag has more than enough penetration. And most groups stack mag because of the superior AoE as well as the ability to do mechanics or maintain DPS where stam/melee cannot. As it stands right now, having a split of mag and stam in a group is not optimal because then support sets are split. I have to 'bring my own' in regards to penetration, which comes at the cost of crit.
>Crit went from 90% chance to 84%
>Omg I don't crit
My crit on live sits at below 50%. I sure wish it was 'dropping' to 84%.PC NA
Will heal DPS for memes.3 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭RogueShark wrote: »The problem with this is a lot of groups... have no reason to run support sets that buff penetration. Because, as you said, mag has more than enough penetration. And most groups stack mag because of the superior AoE as well as the ability to do mechanics or maintain DPS where stam/melee cannot. As it stands right now, having a split of mag and stam in a group is not optimal because then support sets are split. I have to 'bring my own' in regards to penetration, which comes at the cost of crit.
.
This notion is kind of dated. As long as you have a sharpened 2h or a maul, you only need Tremor. Tank monsters aren't great. There's no other "split" with support sets. Stam don't need Hircine, and really don't need Tong.
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