Gifting crowns HAS TO be forever removed and here is why

Amottica · July 2021

Brrrofski wrote: »

Pay to win to me is two things:

Something that can ONLY be bought with money that gives someone an advantage

Being able to buy something with really money that drastically reduces the on game needed to reach that result, and the result is something that yet again, provides a clear advantage.

So, with that in mind, I don't see this as pay to win. I don't think any of these give and advantage. Does it suck that people can buy titles, achievements and the rewards associated with them? I think so, yes. I do think it devalues them, but it doesn't help you with gameplay and doesn't allow them to then achieve more things.

Plus gold is super easy to get in this game anyway. Crown sales aren't needed to buy said skins/mounts/titles/achievements. I've spent most this game playing PvP, with some sort of end game PVE thrown in. I have well over 20mil, despite me spending money on mats, gear, random cool housing stuff and even crowns all the time. Gold is easy to come by.

The first point is the generally accepted definition of P2W in gaming.

xilfxlegion · July 2021

here is what i dont get ---- OP - why do you care how other people play the game ?

we paid for the game. some of pay for eso plus and some of us buy crowns. why even start a thread crying about this when it doesnt even concern you ? are you whining just to whine ? am i whining just to whine as i type this ?

play the game the way you want to play it and mind your own business

Giraffon · July 2021

I'm fine with the current system. I buy crowns from time to time and the sellers I have worked with occasionally reveal the motivation to do so. Generally it seems like a win - win - win.

Sellers:
- need gold because switched platforms - don't want to grind gold all over just to get gear they had on a different platform
- need gold for guild trader bid (that's some dedication to a guild, BTW)
- don't want to do activities that tend to generate gold in game - usually PvP players

Buyers:
- get stuff from crown store without spending real money

ZOS:
- somebody's gotta pay for those crowns - it's all good for them

Xebov · July 2021

DDiggler wrote: »

1 You can buy crowns with real money. It is a major part of the account system.

2 You can exchange crowns with gold via gifting system. Zos will provide support for any complications arise such as scams, accidents etc.

3 You can buy achievements, skins, titles, gear runs or whatever that can be accomplished with a group with gold. Zos did not state that this transaction is a violation of any rules whatsoever.

You can follow the steps above to buy lets say "Perfected Sul Xan's Dagger" or "Gryphon Heart" or "Sunspire Champion Senche-Lion" with real life money, without any effort whatsoever. And all steps to achieve this pay to win cycle are openly permitted if not encouraged by the game company.

Things like housing, pets, styles or even mounts are cosmetic and does not bother most people to be pay to acquire but best in slot gear and most prestigious achievements(and rewards that come with them) being pay to win is outrageous.

Now preventing runsellers must be exceptionally hard since you cant moderate it beyond banning it from zone chats.

Preventing this chain of shame is only realistically possible by removing gifting crowns beacuse other options would cost a lot of money to the company.

-PLEASE STOP PAY TO WIN PLEASE-

If someone wants to buy a run let them pay it with their hard grinded gold at least

ESO is a game that allows different paths through content. Your post contains no information on why the current situation is bad for the game or the community. You only offer your personal opinion that you dislike players exchanging currencies or paying for services because you hughly value certain things linked to such services. This doesnt make the offering of services or the exchange of currencies bad. You use the term "Pay to Win" to put some weight on your opinion, but there is nothing to win here, the way of getting things is not changed, there are just different ways to get to the goal.

Different players play the game in different ways and take different paths through the game. They also value things differently. The only thing important is that different ways work and dont negatively impact each other. This is an example where everything works out. As a player it doesnt impact you how other players gain their gold or gear or furniture if you like it or not.

trackdemon5512 · July 2021

By this logic I could just not buy crowns from anyone and then technically I win the game by having the most gold.

regime211 · July 2021

DDiggler wrote: »

1 You can buy crowns with real money. It is a major part of the account system.

2 You can exchange crowns with gold via gifting system. Zos will provide support for any complications arise such as scams, accidents etc.

3 You can buy achievements, skins, titles, gear runs or whatever that can be accomplished with a group with gold. Zos did not state that this transaction is a violation of any rules whatsoever.

You can follow the steps above to buy lets say "Perfected Sul Xan's Dagger" or "Gryphon Heart" or "Sunspire Champion Senche-Lion" with real life money, without any effort whatsoever. And all steps to achieve this pay to win cycle are openly permitted if not encouraged by the game company.

Things like housing, pets, styles or even mounts are cosmetic and does not bother most people to be pay to acquire but best in slot gear and most prestigious achievements(and rewards that come with them) being pay to win is outrageous.

Now preventing runsellers must be exceptionally hard since you cant moderate it beyond banning it from zone chats.

Preventing this chain of shame is only realistically possible by removing gifting crowns beacuse other options would cost a lot of money to the company.

-PLEASE STOP PAY TO WIN PLEASE-

If someone wants to buy a run let them pay it with their hard grinded gold at least

This game has NOTHING that is pay to win.

Xelyum · July 2021

In fact, lets take it a step further : make crowns a tradable currency.

siddique · July 2021

How is that p2w? If at all, the ones who already won are the ones selling those carries, not the ones buying them.

And they got there by hardwork, not selling crowns.

WeerW3ir · July 2021

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

You get this. I get this.

But I think we are an older breed of gamer that still cared about such things. Just look through this thread. Nowadays people just don't want to be inconvenienced in the slightest, integrity of the game be damned, and putting down cash for whatever they want right now is just an expectation they have and ZOS is more than happy to fulfill.

It's really quite astonishing. These practices have been a creeping normality, expanding the line of acceptable monetization to the point where legalized gold-buying is not considered P2W by most people. Something I would have considered impossible like a decade ago.

While I agree with you about the creeping normalization of increasing monetization, you make the rest of it sound so condescending.

One thing I've learned from past discussions like this is that everyone has their own definition of "pay to win" and they draw their line in the sand in different places.

I know one guy who considers putting cosmetics like costumes and mounts in the Crown Store to be pay to win.

Some players think any type of paywall is pay to win - they periodically object to having to buy the latest Chapter or DLC in order to get the latest BOP gear or new class. Other players will say it's a pay-to-progress feature of a buy-to-play MMO.

Some players are against any form of pay for convenience or "pay to go faster". Those players were up in arms when ZOS added skill lines and skyshards to the Crown Store.

Some players insist that you have to actually "win" a victory that's inaccessible to players who don't pay. Other players will set the line still farther - if it's not the full money-making tactics of a gacha PVP game or an extreme power grind only bypassed by real money, it's not pay to win.

I don't know where you sit on that spectrum, but I do know that we're only going to have a productive discussion if we can respect that players have a wide variety of perspectives on games and what level of monetization they are willing to accept.

By the way, I sit somewhere in the category of "if you can earn it in game, it's not pay to win" with a side of "Of course you have to buy the latest content to progress!" I farm mats for fun, so I've never had a problem making gold in game, no crowns needed. Then, add in that I play Warframe, where the legalized platinum trade for in-game items that give gameplay-advantages is even more monetized by DE as part of their free-to-play model. Though by the strictest definitions, even Warframe isn't "pay to win" despite having a TON of pay-for convenience features.

So please, let's try to keep in mind that this isn't about "breeds" of gamers or even the "integrity of the game" (if so, do you want the many QOL conveniences since ESO's launch rolled back too? I sure don't!).

It's just about different perspectives on games and what different players want and are willing to accept in terms of monetization. You may draw the line before I do, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss it respectfully.

Frankly I don't mind what people call it. Arguing about semantics, most of the time, just becomes a distraction. Even if we all agreed that it is not Pay2Win (which I can see some arguments for), I'd still find it inherently reprehensible to circumvent rules - and every game has rules, no matter how minor - with money.
I realize that the ship has sailed years ago, and most people are in favor of this now, so I don't argue about this topic anymore. I just wanted to let the OP know that he's not alone.

I guess my comment sounded kind of condescending because in a way, it is. I find it difficult to divorce morality from this topic, because that seems to be what it is about. How much you care about fairness and yes, integrity of equal rules for everyone. As somebody else said, what kind of digital skin you can gain in a video game is really bloody irrelevant compared to the injustices in the real world (e.g. education and health care), but the parallels are so obvious to me that I can't see how you can argue for one and against the other.

Our rejection of corruption doesn't only start when you have to buy your way in, but when you can.
And that's the last thing I'll say on this topic.

@Faulgor

Just to let you know, selling carries has explicitly stated to be within the rules of the game. Selling crowns has also been explicitly stated as being within the rules of the game.

I appreciate you don't want to comment on this train of thought further, so I'll save my take on the rest of your reply. Just wanted to let you know that about these two things! Don't know if that changes anything in-game for you.

I never get it how the carries can be within the tos. I mean.. Sure. Selling crown is fine. As long youre not making some trouble with flooding the game with it. (*cough* somebody should do it. *winkwink*), but currently quite the opposite happening. Prices are skyrised and no crowns.
But about selling carries for real cash or in game gold is some messed up ***. It should be not allowed. There is no day when i not see any seller who selling runs. Its way too nasty to be even allowed to existance. Wow had it too, hell. even destiny has it too. But what is my point. Paying millions or real cash for a title or a loot run. Shame on you.

VaranisArano · July 2021

WeerW3ir wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

You get this. I get this.

But I think we are an older breed of gamer that still cared about such things. Just look through this thread. Nowadays people just don't want to be inconvenienced in the slightest, integrity of the game be damned, and putting down cash for whatever they want right now is just an expectation they have and ZOS is more than happy to fulfill.

It's really quite astonishing. These practices have been a creeping normality, expanding the line of acceptable monetization to the point where legalized gold-buying is not considered P2W by most people. Something I would have considered impossible like a decade ago.

While I agree with you about the creeping normalization of increasing monetization, you make the rest of it sound so condescending.

One thing I've learned from past discussions like this is that everyone has their own definition of "pay to win" and they draw their line in the sand in different places.

I know one guy who considers putting cosmetics like costumes and mounts in the Crown Store to be pay to win.

Some players think any type of paywall is pay to win - they periodically object to having to buy the latest Chapter or DLC in order to get the latest BOP gear or new class. Other players will say it's a pay-to-progress feature of a buy-to-play MMO.

Some players are against any form of pay for convenience or "pay to go faster". Those players were up in arms when ZOS added skill lines and skyshards to the Crown Store.

Some players insist that you have to actually "win" a victory that's inaccessible to players who don't pay. Other players will set the line still farther - if it's not the full money-making tactics of a gacha PVP game or an extreme power grind only bypassed by real money, it's not pay to win.

I don't know where you sit on that spectrum, but I do know that we're only going to have a productive discussion if we can respect that players have a wide variety of perspectives on games and what level of monetization they are willing to accept.

By the way, I sit somewhere in the category of "if you can earn it in game, it's not pay to win" with a side of "Of course you have to buy the latest content to progress!" I farm mats for fun, so I've never had a problem making gold in game, no crowns needed. Then, add in that I play Warframe, where the legalized platinum trade for in-game items that give gameplay-advantages is even more monetized by DE as part of their free-to-play model. Though by the strictest definitions, even Warframe isn't "pay to win" despite having a TON of pay-for convenience features.

So please, let's try to keep in mind that this isn't about "breeds" of gamers or even the "integrity of the game" (if so, do you want the many QOL conveniences since ESO's launch rolled back too? I sure don't!).

It's just about different perspectives on games and what different players want and are willing to accept in terms of monetization. You may draw the line before I do, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss it respectfully.

Frankly I don't mind what people call it. Arguing about semantics, most of the time, just becomes a distraction. Even if we all agreed that it is not Pay2Win (which I can see some arguments for), I'd still find it inherently reprehensible to circumvent rules - and every game has rules, no matter how minor - with money.
I realize that the ship has sailed years ago, and most people are in favor of this now, so I don't argue about this topic anymore. I just wanted to let the OP know that he's not alone.

I guess my comment sounded kind of condescending because in a way, it is. I find it difficult to divorce morality from this topic, because that seems to be what it is about. How much you care about fairness and yes, integrity of equal rules for everyone. As somebody else said, what kind of digital skin you can gain in a video game is really bloody irrelevant compared to the injustices in the real world (e.g. education and health care), but the parallels are so obvious to me that I can't see how you can argue for one and against the other.

Our rejection of corruption doesn't only start when you have to buy your way in, but when you can.
And that's the last thing I'll say on this topic.

@Faulgor

Just to let you know, selling carries has explicitly stated to be within the rules of the game. Selling crowns has also been explicitly stated as being within the rules of the game.

I appreciate you don't want to comment on this train of thought further, so I'll save my take on the rest of your reply. Just wanted to let you know that about these two things! Don't know if that changes anything in-game for you.

I never get it how the carries can be within the tos. I mean.. Sure. Selling crown is fine. As long youre not making some trouble with flooding the game with it. (*cough* somebody should do it. *winkwink*), but currently quite the opposite happening. Prices are skyrised and no crowns.
But about selling carries for real cash or in game gold is some messed up ***. It should be not allowed. There is no day when i not see any seller who selling runs. Its way too nasty to be even allowed to existance. Wow had it too, hell. even destiny has it too. But what is my point. Paying millions or real cash for a title or a loot run. Shame on you.

Selling carries for real cash is against the TOS. Actually, I'll make that simpler: selling anything in ESO for real cash is against the TOS. You can't sell ZOS' stuff and make real cash money from it - that makes ZOS' accountants mad.

Selling carries for in-game gold or other in game items like furnishings or Crown Store gifts or whatever is allowed within the TOS (as long as no exploits are being used to do the run, like ye old broken Asylum Sanctorium bugs). It's honestly not that much different from selling Skyreach leveling runs. Why? Cause ZOS profits from your time spent grinding gold or from you buying Crown items to gift with Crowns.

Don't get those two mixed up. They aren't the same.

That's also exactly the distinction that Gina Bruno made when she explained why carries were allowed. "If someone wants to pay a guild millions of gold to be taken through a dungeon or trial, that's up to them and doesn't break any rules. What is against the TOS is paying real world money for a carry, or utilizing an exploit to carry people through an area."

spartaxoxo · July 2021

WeerW3ir wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

You get this. I get this.

But I think we are an older breed of gamer that still cared about such things. Just look through this thread. Nowadays people just don't want to be inconvenienced in the slightest, integrity of the game be damned, and putting down cash for whatever they want right now is just an expectation they have and ZOS is more than happy to fulfill.

It's really quite astonishing. These practices have been a creeping normality, expanding the line of acceptable monetization to the point where legalized gold-buying is not considered P2W by most people. Something I would have considered impossible like a decade ago.

While I agree with you about the creeping normalization of increasing monetization, you make the rest of it sound so condescending.

One thing I've learned from past discussions like this is that everyone has their own definition of "pay to win" and they draw their line in the sand in different places.

I know one guy who considers putting cosmetics like costumes and mounts in the Crown Store to be pay to win.

Some players think any type of paywall is pay to win - they periodically object to having to buy the latest Chapter or DLC in order to get the latest BOP gear or new class. Other players will say it's a pay-to-progress feature of a buy-to-play MMO.

Some players are against any form of pay for convenience or "pay to go faster". Those players were up in arms when ZOS added skill lines and skyshards to the Crown Store.

Some players insist that you have to actually "win" a victory that's inaccessible to players who don't pay. Other players will set the line still farther - if it's not the full money-making tactics of a gacha PVP game or an extreme power grind only bypassed by real money, it's not pay to win.

I don't know where you sit on that spectrum, but I do know that we're only going to have a productive discussion if we can respect that players have a wide variety of perspectives on games and what level of monetization they are willing to accept.

By the way, I sit somewhere in the category of "if you can earn it in game, it's not pay to win" with a side of "Of course you have to buy the latest content to progress!" I farm mats for fun, so I've never had a problem making gold in game, no crowns needed. Then, add in that I play Warframe, where the legalized platinum trade for in-game items that give gameplay-advantages is even more monetized by DE as part of their free-to-play model. Though by the strictest definitions, even Warframe isn't "pay to win" despite having a TON of pay-for convenience features.

So please, let's try to keep in mind that this isn't about "breeds" of gamers or even the "integrity of the game" (if so, do you want the many QOL conveniences since ESO's launch rolled back too? I sure don't!).

It's just about different perspectives on games and what different players want and are willing to accept in terms of monetization. You may draw the line before I do, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss it respectfully.

Frankly I don't mind what people call it. Arguing about semantics, most of the time, just becomes a distraction. Even if we all agreed that it is not Pay2Win (which I can see some arguments for), I'd still find it inherently reprehensible to circumvent rules - and every game has rules, no matter how minor - with money.
I realize that the ship has sailed years ago, and most people are in favor of this now, so I don't argue about this topic anymore. I just wanted to let the OP know that he's not alone.

I guess my comment sounded kind of condescending because in a way, it is. I find it difficult to divorce morality from this topic, because that seems to be what it is about. How much you care about fairness and yes, integrity of equal rules for everyone. As somebody else said, what kind of digital skin you can gain in a video game is really bloody irrelevant compared to the injustices in the real world (e.g. education and health care), but the parallels are so obvious to me that I can't see how you can argue for one and against the other.

Our rejection of corruption doesn't only start when you have to buy your way in, but when you can.
And that's the last thing I'll say on this topic.

@Faulgor

Just to let you know, selling carries has explicitly stated to be within the rules of the game. Selling crowns has also been explicitly stated as being within the rules of the game.

I appreciate you don't want to comment on this train of thought further, so I'll save my take on the rest of your reply. Just wanted to let you know that about these two things! Don't know if that changes anything in-game for you.

I never get it how the carries can be within the tos. I mean.. Sure. Selling crown is fine. As long youre not making some trouble with flooding the game with it. (*cough* somebody should do it. *winkwink*), but currently quite the opposite happening. Prices are skyrised and no crowns.
But about selling carries for real cash or in game gold is some messed up ***. It should be not allowed. There is no day when i not see any seller who selling runs. Its way too nasty to be even allowed to existance. Wow had it too, hell. even destiny has it too. But what is my point. Paying millions or real cash for a title or a loot run. Shame on you.

You can't sell for real cash. And as for selling for coins...why not? If they have enough talent and skill to do that, how is it any different than selling anything else in game that you took time to do?

Everyone knows that you can buy carries. And the people who's achievements are "devalued" by that are the ones doing the selling. Are they exploiting themselves or something? Lol

Radiance · July 2021

LOL this is a business [snip]. They don't care who's money it is as long as someone is buying something.

[edited for baiting]

colossalvoids · July 2021

I look at it in a different angle. Before crown trading not everyone was able to race change on demand or buy new dlc even based on where they live and what's their income was, nowadays we're pretty equal compared to those times. You can invest your time to get things, before you was just locked out with no other way but to cash out. Imagine living in third world countries, it would make more sense to you. Carries or whatsnot were present before, only thing it did was devaluation of some achievements but that wasn't really a problem as most people seem to not care about it anyway. There's a wealthy guy and a mercenary party, everyone is happy in the end, not that it helped the player to get better or win against anyone. Item runs are also far from pay to win as most people running those are pretty capable ones that just left their group or need some illusive item fast (some daggers and staves). Ones that a bit that capable aren't getting edge because they are still same players in a game where skill is more important than sets you wearing.

Xebov · July 2021

WeerW3ir wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

You get this. I get this.

But I think we are an older breed of gamer that still cared about such things. Just look through this thread. Nowadays people just don't want to be inconvenienced in the slightest, integrity of the game be damned, and putting down cash for whatever they want right now is just an expectation they have and ZOS is more than happy to fulfill.

It's really quite astonishing. These practices have been a creeping normality, expanding the line of acceptable monetization to the point where legalized gold-buying is not considered P2W by most people. Something I would have considered impossible like a decade ago.

While I agree with you about the creeping normalization of increasing monetization, you make the rest of it sound so condescending.

One thing I've learned from past discussions like this is that everyone has their own definition of "pay to win" and they draw their line in the sand in different places.

I know one guy who considers putting cosmetics like costumes and mounts in the Crown Store to be pay to win.

Some players think any type of paywall is pay to win - they periodically object to having to buy the latest Chapter or DLC in order to get the latest BOP gear or new class. Other players will say it's a pay-to-progress feature of a buy-to-play MMO.

Some players are against any form of pay for convenience or "pay to go faster". Those players were up in arms when ZOS added skill lines and skyshards to the Crown Store.

Some players insist that you have to actually "win" a victory that's inaccessible to players who don't pay. Other players will set the line still farther - if it's not the full money-making tactics of a gacha PVP game or an extreme power grind only bypassed by real money, it's not pay to win.

I don't know where you sit on that spectrum, but I do know that we're only going to have a productive discussion if we can respect that players have a wide variety of perspectives on games and what level of monetization they are willing to accept.

By the way, I sit somewhere in the category of "if you can earn it in game, it's not pay to win" with a side of "Of course you have to buy the latest content to progress!" I farm mats for fun, so I've never had a problem making gold in game, no crowns needed. Then, add in that I play Warframe, where the legalized platinum trade for in-game items that give gameplay-advantages is even more monetized by DE as part of their free-to-play model. Though by the strictest definitions, even Warframe isn't "pay to win" despite having a TON of pay-for convenience features.

So please, let's try to keep in mind that this isn't about "breeds" of gamers or even the "integrity of the game" (if so, do you want the many QOL conveniences since ESO's launch rolled back too? I sure don't!).

It's just about different perspectives on games and what different players want and are willing to accept in terms of monetization. You may draw the line before I do, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss it respectfully.

Frankly I don't mind what people call it. Arguing about semantics, most of the time, just becomes a distraction. Even if we all agreed that it is not Pay2Win (which I can see some arguments for), I'd still find it inherently reprehensible to circumvent rules - and every game has rules, no matter how minor - with money.
I realize that the ship has sailed years ago, and most people are in favor of this now, so I don't argue about this topic anymore. I just wanted to let the OP know that he's not alone.

I guess my comment sounded kind of condescending because in a way, it is. I find it difficult to divorce morality from this topic, because that seems to be what it is about. How much you care about fairness and yes, integrity of equal rules for everyone. As somebody else said, what kind of digital skin you can gain in a video game is really bloody irrelevant compared to the injustices in the real world (e.g. education and health care), but the parallels are so obvious to me that I can't see how you can argue for one and against the other.

Our rejection of corruption doesn't only start when you have to buy your way in, but when you can.
And that's the last thing I'll say on this topic.

@Faulgor

Just to let you know, selling carries has explicitly stated to be within the rules of the game. Selling crowns has also been explicitly stated as being within the rules of the game.

I appreciate you don't want to comment on this train of thought further, so I'll save my take on the rest of your reply. Just wanted to let you know that about these two things! Don't know if that changes anything in-game for you.

I never get it how the carries can be within the tos. I mean.. Sure. Selling crown is fine. As long youre not making some trouble with flooding the game with it. (*cough* somebody should do it. *winkwink*), but currently quite the opposite happening. Prices are skyrised and no crowns.
But about selling carries for real cash or in game gold is some messed up ***. It should be not allowed. There is no day when i not see any seller who selling runs. Its way too nasty to be even allowed to existance. Wow had it too, hell. even destiny has it too. But what is my point. Paying millions or real cash for a title or a loot run. Shame on you.

The crown trading is a supply and demand system like anything else. You simply cant flood the system.

Carry Runs are a service like many other services happening. You cannot sell them for real money. A Carry Run is noting else than exchanging gear or a title for gold. Its litterally the same thing you do when you step on a guild trader and buy anything. You simply compensate someone else for their efford.

The only reason we get this discussion all the time is that some players permanently dislike the way other players play even if they are hardly effected by it.

DarcyMardin · July 2021

Some of us actually use Crown store gifting to give gifts to our friends and family without getting something in return…because we *like* to give gifts. Shocking, I know, but that is what my husband and I use crown store gifting for. It’s a great feature — I love it.

Ishtarknows · July 2021

DDiggler wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

This isn't pay to win, lol. A mount or a title don't give you any advantage over anyone. Trial gear doesn't make you have an advantage in PvP (nobody uses trial sets) and it won't make you any better in pve than other people (in fact you probably will still do worse - if you could do the dps required you wouldn't be buying it).

No p2w, carry on with your life.

You can buy molten war torte or the better 150% one that i dont remember now with gold as well no?

Anything you can buy in game with gold is buyable with real money. What would you consider pay to win if not this?

Let's turn it the other way. Everything you can buy with irl money in the Crown store is either cosmetic or available to buy in game. How is that p2w?

There's zero advantage spending irl cash over ingame gold = not p2w

Kiralyn2000 · July 2021

WeerW3ir wrote: »

I never get it how the carries can be within the tos. I mean.. Sure. Selling crown is fine. As long youre not making some trouble with flooding the game with it. (*cough* somebody should do it. *winkwink*), but currently quite the opposite happening. Prices are skyrised and no crowns.
But about selling carries for real cash or in game gold is some messed up ***. It should be not allowed.

Selling carries has nothing to do with selling crowns.

People have been selling carries since the early days of MMOs, before there were cash shops, or alternate currencies, or any of that.

And how is selling an in-game service (whether it's a carry, or 9-trait crafting) for gold, against any rules of MMOs? Co-operating with other players is a core part of that whole "multiplayer" thing.

No, seriously - tell me how selling a carry is different than selling your crafting ability or selling a rare BoE drop?

magnusthorek · July 2021

Your topic seems contradictory to me, honestly.

Selling Crowns for in-game Gold, from what I can see, a great deal for ZOS because although ESO+ members receive some Crowns with their subscriptions, such amounts are hardly enough to buy all cosmetics they want and/or supply players' demands which, for any reason, simply can't have access to them (they're kids without money, they live in countries with ridiculous currency exchange rates, family disapproves and etc.). In order to supply this demand, people actually buy Crowns with real-life money providing ZOS with a more or less constant incoming while keeping players happy same time. To me, it's a win-win.

However, unfortunately, everything good brings a predatory downside here explored by Content-sellers. The very definition of Achievement is "things done successfully, typically by effort, courage, or skill", not money. If you, in real-life, are rich or have a financially comfortable life you can afford to be a Crown supplier, thus getting "rich" in-game thus having more ways to buy-off Achievements you know you'll never be able to get for a number of reasons (you don't have the skill, the content relies on the competency of others, you just can't find other player committed enough, far too much RNG, not enough time and etc.).

Not that someone good at the marketing business can't be equally rich and get what they want from the Content-sellers, it's just not likely they'll be as much as a Crown Seller, be they dedicated or not.

And because of this I strongly defend that Content-selling MUST be against the Terms of Service because a game must be played and hard-earned stuff, even if cosmetic, must be legitimately acquired with effort, not money.

Kiralyn2000 · July 2021

magnusthorek wrote: »

And because of this I strongly defend that Content-selling MUST be against the Terms of Service because a game must be played and hard-earned stuff, even if cosmetic, must be legitimately acquired with effort, not money.

Well, then, you're fighting against decades of MMO tradition.

Also, where does it say this:

because a game must be played and hard-earned stuff, even if cosmetic, must be legitimately acquired with effort

(thinking about it further - selling runs, all the way back to 40-man raids in the Olde Days, is a supreme demonstration of skill. On the part of the sellers, that is. They are so good, that they can do that Special Hard Content, with the extra handicap of having tourists along with them.)

And in the grander scheme of things - selling your skills (whether IRL trade skills, l33t g4m3 skillz, crafting skills, etc) has been a basic part of human existence for thousands of years. Why would an MMO, which purports to have a "community", not allow this? Again - how is selling my theoretical (total lack of) skill at leading someone through a dungeon, any different than selling my skill as a 9-trait/billion-motif crafter? Or selling teleports to new zones/wayshrines/skyshards?

edit: heck, what about a group of Good Friends, who drag their inept buddy through Hard Content for free (because he's their buddy, and they're Good Friends™). That's someone with no skillz getting Hard Earned Stuff without Legitimate Effort. Should that be banned/against the TOS, as well?

jle30303 · July 2021

Carry runs for in-game currency - in any game that has cooperation between players, and the ability to bring a passenger in - are perfectly fine in my book... speaking as someone who intends to get good enough to earn the achievements rather than pay to be carried through them.

Arunei · July 2021

The logic applied here is a bit...strange. It's like saying "Well people can hurt or kill others with cars so we should just outlaw cars" or "a lot of medicines can be used to produce drugs so we need to just ban medicine entirely", without considering the fact that a majority of people don't use their cars to mow people down, and a majority of people don't use their medication to make drugs. Just because a small subset of people MIGHT use a system in place in a way it's not meant or allowed to be used doesn't mean the whole thing needs to be banned, even though in this case there's no rules or anything being broken at all.

And even if they did remove the ability to gift Crown Store stuff, that changes exactly nothing about the point of this thread. People were buying and selling carries for in-game gold long before Crown Store gifting became a thing, and if for some reason they removed it (which they won't unless they legally have to, or unless it 1000% breaks the game somehow) people would continue to buy and sell carries, gold that they potentially bought from a 3rd-party gold seller.

It's not pay to win in the slightest to have Crown selling/gifting be a thing, just because people might sell Crowns and then use the money to pay for a carry, and either way...it affects you, how? What, exactly, are these people who are using real money to buy Crowns and then sell them for gold winning, and how does it make you or anyone else "lose"? Someone paying for a run to get gear from a specific trial, or paying to get a title or Personality or Skin from whatever dungeon, affects you in what capacity? There is no one single item in this game that will allow a person to beat another in PvP every single time without fail, there's nothing in the Crown Store that gives you any real considerable advantage over someone else to the point where if they don't purchase it too they have no chance of competing. I realize everyone might have their own definition of what p2w is, but there comes a time when that can be used as an excuse to call something p2w even when it isn't.

JKorr · July 2021

Faulgor wrote: »

You get this. I get this.

But I think we are an older breed of gamer that still cared about such things. Just look through this thread. Nowadays people just don't want to be inconvenienced in the slightest, integrity of the game be damned, and putting down cash for whatever they want right now is just an expectation they have and ZOS is more than happy to fulfill.

It's really quite astonishing. These practices have been a creeping normality, expanding the line of acceptable monetization to the point where legalized gold-buying is not considered P2W by most people. Something I would have considered impossible like a decade ago.

Faulgor, I'm not going to post specifics because I don't want to break any rules or give anyone ideas. However, you do realize that a decade ago, and longer than that, people were buying items they wanted, but didn't want to bother to earn/work for. The internet, ebay and individually created websites offer opportunities for gold/item selling. There were news articles when someone figured out people were selling accounts and super duper magical mystical pixels for hundreds, sometimes thousands of dollars of real money.