Gifting crowns HAS TO be forever removed and here is why

Minyassa · July 2021

DDiggler wrote: »

1 You can buy crowns with real money. It is a major part of the account system.

2 You can exchange crowns with gold via gifting system. Zos will provide support for any complications arise such as scams, accidents etc.

3 You can buy achievements, skins, titles, gear runs or whatever that can be accomplished with a group with gold. Zos did not state that this transaction is a violation of any rules whatsoever.

You can follow the steps above to buy lets say "Perfected Sul Xan's Dagger" or "Gryphon Heart" or "Sunspire Champion Senche-Lion" with real life money, without any effort whatsoever. And all steps to achieve this pay to win cycle are openly permitted if not encouraged by the game company.

Things like housing, pets, styles or even mounts are cosmetic and does not bother most people to be pay to acquire but best in slot gear and most prestigious achievements(and rewards that come with them) being pay to win is outrageous.

Now preventing runsellers must be exceptionally hard since you cant moderate it beyond banning it from zone chats.

Preventing this chain of shame is only realistically possible by removing gifting crowns beacuse other options would cost a lot of money to the company.

-PLEASE STOP PAY TO WIN PLEASE-

If someone wants to buy a run let them pay it with their hard grinded gold at least

Not even gonna touch the whole "p2w" thing, others have done that plenty. But you seem to be forgetting that the gifting system isn't automatically "crown items for gold". It's a trade. If my friend wants to buy me something out of the crown store in exchange for my giving her a few pieces of fancy furniture I made, we can trade that and no gold is involved whatsoever. I've traded items for crown store items before where no one cared about gold and it was about trading a crown store item for a crafted or dropped item that someone else wanted. It's a nice arrangement to make when it works out for two people and it would be a shame to put a stop to that just because someone doesn't like run sellers.

EllieBlue · July 2021

Chips_Ahoy wrote: »

DDiggler wrote: »

1 You can buy crowns with real money. It is a major part of the account system.

2 You can exchange crowns with gold via gifting system. Zos will provide support for any complications arise such as scams, accidents etc.

3 You can buy achievements, skins, titles, gear runs or whatever that can be accomplished with a group with gold. Zos did not state that this transaction is a violation of any rules whatsoever.

You can follow the steps above to buy lets say "Perfected Sul Xan's Dagger" or "Gryphon Heart" or "Sunspire Champion Senche-Lion" with real life money, without any effort whatsoever. And all steps to achieve this pay to win cycle are openly permitted if not encouraged by the game company.

Things like housing, pets, styles or even mounts are cosmetic and does not bother most people to be pay to acquire but best in slot gear and most prestigious achievements(and rewards that come with them) being pay to win is outrageous.

Now preventing runsellers must be exceptionally hard since you cant moderate it beyond banning it from zone chats.

Preventing this chain of shame is only realistically possible by removing gifting crowns beacuse other options would cost a lot of money to the company.

-PLEASE STOP PAY TO WIN PLEASE-

If someone wants to buy a run let them pay it with their hard grinded gold at least

Why do you care so much about how the other players got their fancy titles/achievements?

how does it affect you? your character got weaker?

The only ones I envy are those who have the Tiger's mount.

If you are reading this and you are one of them, I want you to know that I hate you, from today you have just won a sworn enemy.

Which tiger?

trackdemon5512 · July 2021

I remember before crown gifting was thing. The game felt very much like a classist struggle. Crown buyers had all the mounts, dlc, extra races, etc.

Getting rid of crown gifting at this point would arguably add far more strife to the game and really make it seem more like P2W. Esp in the case of PvP where best race of the current meta has a leg up and those with the real world cash are more than willing to race change at a whim.

spartaxoxo · July 2021

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

I remember before crown gifting was thing. The game felt very much like a classist struggle. Crown buyers had all the mounts, dlc, extra races, etc.

Getting rid of crown gifting at this point would arguably add far more strife to the game and really make it seem more like P2W. Esp in the case of PvP where best race of the current meta has a leg up and those with the real world cash are more than willing to race change at a whim.

Absolutely. Crown gifting has given people access to dlc content they wouldn't have otherwise. And dlc content can often contain gear or whatever that gives advantage too

xv1_me · July 2021

Sju wrote: »

I'm honestly surprised they haven't been forced to shut this down yet, it is pretty identical to selling gold for real money. It's not p2w though, nothing p2w about cosmetics. But if you're going to ban gold for cash transactions, then ban this too.

Why would they stop crown selling? I’m sure this is where 90% of their income come from.

Amottica · July 2021

First, I looked up Gryphon Heart, and if someone can manage to the no-death part then they are probably good enough to run with a capable enough group to start with. If they are not good enough then someone is logging into their account and playing the character for them which is probably a violation of the ToS as that is fairly commonplace in MMORPGs.

I also wonder if the gold cost is worth the extra 657 crit chance the perfected version of the Sul Xan's set adds. I do not see this as a big deal.

Regardless, I doubt Zenimax will cease the gifting. Being able to sell cash shop items in MMORPGs is becoming a standard. It is merely an odd way Zenimax has implemented it.

waterfairy · July 2021

EllieBlue wrote: »

Chips_Ahoy wrote: »

DDiggler wrote: »

1 You can buy crowns with real money. It is a major part of the account system.

2 You can exchange crowns with gold via gifting system. Zos will provide support for any complications arise such as scams, accidents etc.

3 You can buy achievements, skins, titles, gear runs or whatever that can be accomplished with a group with gold. Zos did not state that this transaction is a violation of any rules whatsoever.

You can follow the steps above to buy lets say "Perfected Sul Xan's Dagger" or "Gryphon Heart" or "Sunspire Champion Senche-Lion" with real life money, without any effort whatsoever. And all steps to achieve this pay to win cycle are openly permitted if not encouraged by the game company.

Things like housing, pets, styles or even mounts are cosmetic and does not bother most people to be pay to acquire but best in slot gear and most prestigious achievements(and rewards that come with them) being pay to win is outrageous.

Now preventing runsellers must be exceptionally hard since you cant moderate it beyond banning it from zone chats.

Preventing this chain of shame is only realistically possible by removing gifting crowns beacuse other options would cost a lot of money to the company.

-PLEASE STOP PAY TO WIN PLEASE-

If someone wants to buy a run let them pay it with their hard grinded gold at least

Why do you care so much about how the other players got their fancy titles/achievements?

how does it affect you? your character got weaker?

The only ones I envy are those who have the Tiger's mount.

If you are reading this and you are one of them, I want you to know that I hate you, from today you have just won a sworn enemy.

Which tiger?

most likely they mean the tiger that was a loyalty reward back when eso had a sub

Psiion · July 2021

Greetings all,

After review, we have had to remove a few non-constructive, Baiting posts and we would like to remind everyone that Baiting is against the Forum's Community Rules. We understand everyone has opinions they would like to express, but we ask that posts stay respectful and within the Community Rules moving forward.

Faulgor · July 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

You get this. I get this.

But I think we are an older breed of gamer that still cared about such things. Just look through this thread. Nowadays people just don't want to be inconvenienced in the slightest, integrity of the game be damned, and putting down cash for whatever they want right now is just an expectation they have and ZOS is more than happy to fulfill.

It's really quite astonishing. These practices have been a creeping normality, expanding the line of acceptable monetization to the point where legalized gold-buying is not considered P2W by most people. Something I would have considered impossible like a decade ago.

While I agree with you about the creeping normalization of increasing monetization, you make the rest of it sound so condescending.

One thing I've learned from past discussions like this is that everyone has their own definition of "pay to win" and they draw their line in the sand in different places.

I know one guy who considers putting cosmetics like costumes and mounts in the Crown Store to be pay to win.

Some players think any type of paywall is pay to win - they periodically object to having to buy the latest Chapter or DLC in order to get the latest BOP gear or new class. Other players will say it's a pay-to-progress feature of a buy-to-play MMO.

Some players are against any form of pay for convenience or "pay to go faster". Those players were up in arms when ZOS added skill lines and skyshards to the Crown Store.

Some players insist that you have to actually "win" a victory that's inaccessible to players who don't pay. Other players will set the line still farther - if it's not the full money-making tactics of a gacha PVP game or an extreme power grind only bypassed by real money, it's not pay to win.

I don't know where you sit on that spectrum, but I do know that we're only going to have a productive discussion if we can respect that players have a wide variety of perspectives on games and what level of monetization they are willing to accept.

By the way, I sit somewhere in the category of "if you can earn it in game, it's not pay to win" with a side of "Of course you have to buy the latest content to progress!" I farm mats for fun, so I've never had a problem making gold in game, no crowns needed. Then, add in that I play Warframe, where the legalized platinum trade for in-game items that give gameplay-advantages is even more monetized by DE as part of their free-to-play model. Though by the strictest definitions, even Warframe isn't "pay to win" despite having a TON of pay-for convenience features.

So please, let's try to keep in mind that this isn't about "breeds" of gamers or even the "integrity of the game" (if so, do you want the many QOL conveniences since ESO's launch rolled back too? I sure don't!).

It's just about different perspectives on games and what different players want and are willing to accept in terms of monetization. You may draw the line before I do, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss it respectfully.

Frankly I don't mind what people call it. Arguing about semantics, most of the time, just becomes a distraction. Even if we all agreed that it is not Pay2Win (which I can see some arguments for), I'd still find it inherently reprehensible to circumvent rules - and every game has rules, no matter how minor - with money.
I realize that the ship has sailed years ago, and most people are in favor of this now, so I don't argue about this topic anymore. I just wanted to let the OP know that he's not alone.

I guess my comment sounded kind of condescending because in a way, it is. I find it difficult to divorce morality from this topic, because that seems to be what it is about. How much you care about fairness and yes, integrity of equal rules for everyone. As somebody else said, what kind of digital skin you can gain in a video game is really bloody irrelevant compared to the injustices in the real world (e.g. education and health care), but the parallels are so obvious to me that I can't see how you can argue for one and against the other.

Our rejection of corruption doesn't only start when you have to buy your way in, but when you can.
And that's the last thing I'll say on this topic.

Alucardo · July 2021

First off, it doesn't need to be removed. Secondly, it's most definitely p2w in a sense. I went from broke to millionaire in 5 minutes. I was able to buy my sets, gold out every single piece with prismatic glyphs, buy gold food and the best potions. Everything except transmutation is basically done with gold. But who needs transmutes when you don't mind paying 600k for the perfect trait.
Having said that, it's not p2w in the "bad" way. Last game I played you could BUY the best weapons and armor from their cash shop. Basically the cash shop provided legendary gear, while the merchants in game only sold white common lol.
The bad p2w gives you an edge over other players. Gold can help min max you, but you won't be any stronger than people who did in game stuff to reach your power level.

FlamingMeat · July 2021

It's literally the opposite of P2W though, no? The fact that they're all cosmetic changes, bar horse stats, and they're available to everyone for no real life money if they grind the gold themselves and trade with trusted individuals (always at your own risk) opens up the market for 'F2P' players to interact with microtransactions without spending a dime. Not to mention this is what endgame is to me in this game: I get gold so I can invest in cosmetics/boxes. If I could only interact with it monetarily and not with gameplay I would not be still playing probably.

Alucardo · July 2021

FlamingMeat wrote: »

It's literally the opposite of P2W though, no?

Ehhh depends on how you look at it. As I said above, it's technically p2w, but not in a really bad way. Everything in this game can be bought with gold. You don't have to level any crafting or even set foot in a dungeon to max your character out with the best sets at a 5 star level.
Without skill lines and skill points your character can't do much, but don't worry, you can buy those too. Personally I don't have a problem with those because you have to do it on another character first before it unlocks in the crown store.

FlamingMeat · July 2021

Alucardo wrote: »

FlamingMeat wrote: »

It's literally the opposite of P2W though, no?

Ehhh depends on how you look at it. As I said above, it's technically p2w, but not in a really bad way. Everything in this game can be bought with gold. You don't have to level any crafting or even set foot in a dungeon to max your character out with the best sets at a 5 star level.
Without skill lines and skill points your character can't do much, but don't worry, you can buy those too. Personally I don't have a problem with those because you have to do it on another character first before it unlocks in the crown store.

Fringe technicalities are also built upon you needing to interact with the game in some way before buying them on the store yeah, also I'm not sure of any useful buyables like that other than mages guild skill line and MAYBE undaunted, the rest just seem like gross misuse of funds if you're in the 'need to be F2P' position. But again, totally up to the player to buy them and not grind them out again, so it's a technicality wrapped in a technicality that isn't that useful to add to the discussion.

Alucardo · July 2021

FlamingMeat wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

FlamingMeat wrote: »

It's literally the opposite of P2W though, no?

Ehhh depends on how you look at it. As I said above, it's technically p2w, but not in a really bad way. Everything in this game can be bought with gold. You don't have to level any crafting or even set foot in a dungeon to max your character out with the best sets at a 5 star level.
Without skill lines and skill points your character can't do much, but don't worry, you can buy those too. Personally I don't have a problem with those because you have to do it on another character first before it unlocks in the crown store.

Fringe technicalities are also built upon you needing to interact with the game in some way before buying them on the store yeah, also I'm not sure of any useful buyables like that other than mages guild skill line and MAYBE undaunted, the rest just seem like gross misuse of funds if you're in the 'need to be F2P' position. But again, totally up to the player to buy them and not grind them out again, so it's a technicality wrapped in a technicality that isn't that useful to add to the discussion.

Yeah, I think the primary pain point for people is the fact you can convert real money into gold, which is very useful in ESO. I don't know how to make gold in this game, so I don't mind it

Girl_Number8 · July 2021

karekiz wrote: »

Lets cut the sad story song. If people REALLY cared that much, they would run people free of charge.

It is not free for the trials guilds.

There are lots of costs that come into factor, not to mention getting that good does not take overnight. If it was so easy there would be way more progression guilds.

This is caring!! Especially, in the fact that it helps people complete something they want. I mean, Trader guilds take donations.

There is not a guild that doesn’t need donations to help it. I see no difference when someone is trading gold for crowns to get that cosmetic they wanted or going to a trader and buying gear they don’t wish to farm.

Carries help other players have some happiness in the toughest part of PvE content....

Bat · July 2021

This is the most convoluted logic I've heard all day, and I even read through some Facebook comments sections today.

perfiction · July 2021

I have all DLCs, I bought them all with ingame gold. I'm not ESO+ sub, never paid for anything in game (only the base ESO game). I love the idea that you can buy DLCs, houses, slight upgrades (inventory pets) or even gamble with clown crates without actually paying RL currency.

Some trials have BiS sets (for example Yolna in vSS, RO in vKA). Allowing people to buy access to those trials (Elsweyr/Greymoor DLCs) with gold is quite opposite of P2W.

Brrrofski · July 2021

Pay to win to me is two things:

Something that can ONLY be bought with money that gives someone an advantage

Being able to buy something with really money that drastically reduces the on game needed to reach that result, and the result is something that yet again, provides a clear advantage.

So, with that in mind, I don't see this as pay to win. I don't think any of these give and advantage. Does it suck that people can buy titles, achievements and the rewards associated with them? I think so, yes. I do think it devalues them, but it doesn't help you with gameplay and doesn't allow them to then achieve more things.

Plus gold is super easy to get in this game anyway. Crown sales aren't needed to buy said skins/mounts/titles/achievements. I've spent most this game playing PvP, with some sort of end game PVE thrown in. I have well over 20mil, despite me spending money on mats, gear, random cool housing stuff and even crowns all the time. Gold is easy to come by.

VaranisArano · July 2021

Faulgor wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

You get this. I get this.

But I think we are an older breed of gamer that still cared about such things. Just look through this thread. Nowadays people just don't want to be inconvenienced in the slightest, integrity of the game be damned, and putting down cash for whatever they want right now is just an expectation they have and ZOS is more than happy to fulfill.

It's really quite astonishing. These practices have been a creeping normality, expanding the line of acceptable monetization to the point where legalized gold-buying is not considered P2W by most people. Something I would have considered impossible like a decade ago.

While I agree with you about the creeping normalization of increasing monetization, you make the rest of it sound so condescending.

One thing I've learned from past discussions like this is that everyone has their own definition of "pay to win" and they draw their line in the sand in different places.

I know one guy who considers putting cosmetics like costumes and mounts in the Crown Store to be pay to win.

Some players think any type of paywall is pay to win - they periodically object to having to buy the latest Chapter or DLC in order to get the latest BOP gear or new class. Other players will say it's a pay-to-progress feature of a buy-to-play MMO.

Some players are against any form of pay for convenience or "pay to go faster". Those players were up in arms when ZOS added skill lines and skyshards to the Crown Store.

Some players insist that you have to actually "win" a victory that's inaccessible to players who don't pay. Other players will set the line still farther - if it's not the full money-making tactics of a gacha PVP game or an extreme power grind only bypassed by real money, it's not pay to win.

I don't know where you sit on that spectrum, but I do know that we're only going to have a productive discussion if we can respect that players have a wide variety of perspectives on games and what level of monetization they are willing to accept.

By the way, I sit somewhere in the category of "if you can earn it in game, it's not pay to win" with a side of "Of course you have to buy the latest content to progress!" I farm mats for fun, so I've never had a problem making gold in game, no crowns needed. Then, add in that I play Warframe, where the legalized platinum trade for in-game items that give gameplay-advantages is even more monetized by DE as part of their free-to-play model. Though by the strictest definitions, even Warframe isn't "pay to win" despite having a TON of pay-for convenience features.

So please, let's try to keep in mind that this isn't about "breeds" of gamers or even the "integrity of the game" (if so, do you want the many QOL conveniences since ESO's launch rolled back too? I sure don't!).

It's just about different perspectives on games and what different players want and are willing to accept in terms of monetization. You may draw the line before I do, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss it respectfully.

Frankly I don't mind what people call it. Arguing about semantics, most of the time, just becomes a distraction. Even if we all agreed that it is not Pay2Win (which I can see some arguments for), I'd still find it inherently reprehensible to circumvent rules - and every game has rules, no matter how minor - with money.
I realize that the ship has sailed years ago, and most people are in favor of this now, so I don't argue about this topic anymore. I just wanted to let the OP know that he's not alone.

I guess my comment sounded kind of condescending because in a way, it is. I find it difficult to divorce morality from this topic, because that seems to be what it is about. How much you care about fairness and yes, integrity of equal rules for everyone. As somebody else said, what kind of digital skin you can gain in a video game is really bloody irrelevant compared to the injustices in the real world (e.g. education and health care), but the parallels are so obvious to me that I can't see how you can argue for one and against the other.

Our rejection of corruption doesn't only start when you have to buy your way in, but when you can.
And that's the last thing I'll say on this topic.

Yeah, if you're going to make a moral issue out of buying cosmetics in a video game, I don't imagine we have much to discuss.

Anyways, you have a good day!

Chadak · July 2021

I confess that I've sold crowns for gold before.

It gave me a distinct edge on being able to buy decorations for all the houses I've decorated.

That's pretty much it though. Between using crowns on decorations and selling some crowns for gold after burning through the many millions I had anyway, I've decorated thirteen different places to the absolute hilt and still have something like 15m gold to spare.

Gear? I had all the gear I ever could've wanted before all of this. I've got three maxed out crafters and have twenty eight different monster helm/shoulder combos in my bank, every MA/vMA , DSA/vDSA and now quite a few Vateshran/vVateshran weapons I could ever want to pick and choose from.

I've sold probably about $200 worth of crowns though. Motifs and recipes for placeables and bulk placeables drained my nest egg long ago, and $200 is beans to me anyway, and now?

Now I've got most all the motifs and placeables I ever wanted. I'm totes winning the 'My houses are prettier than yours' competition. Well, maybe. Unless you just don't like how I decorate, in which case...you make me sad. I'm over it though.

And you should be too.

luen79rwb17_ESO · July 2021

The point doesn't make sense, people will still sell dungeon / trial runs regardless of the Crown gifting thing.

mekops_ESO · July 2021

Basically asking that ZoS streamline this "pay 2 win" process you mentioned by removing themselves from it along with any profits that come from it. Gold and crowns are both in-game virtual currencies. If they do away with this sort of thing, people will just start offering these services on third party sites. Giving up all that money just to drive the sale of player achievements underground into unnecessarily shady territory is asking a lot. Dozens of MMOs across 15 years in the genre and I have yet to play a game where at least some portion of players dont find a way around the rules in this regard. So it would definitely happen again and wont just go away with the removal of the gifting mechanic. I am also not even convinced that selling content runs for crown gifts or gold is even necessarily a problem of any sort.

Kiralyn2000 · July 2021

The silly part is that gold <-> cash-currency trading is one of the stronger anti-p2w features a game can have.

Because it lets people without cash, get cash shop items.

So whatever "advantage" you think those items give, aren't restricted to people who pay cash.

WeerW3ir · July 2021

And if i cannot afford but i need something from the store then im wasted?

I mean. Yeah. Sure. Do not allow it. Or make it cheaper. Current prices are bs anyway lol

karekiz · July 2021

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

Lets cut the sad story song. If people REALLY cared that much, they would run people free of charge.

It is not free for the trials guilds.

There are lots of costs that come into factor, not to mention getting that good does not take overnight. If it was so easy there would be way more progression guilds.

This is caring!! Especially, in the fact that it helps people complete something they want. I mean, Trader guilds take donations.

There is not a guild that doesn’t need donations to help it. I see no difference when someone is trading gold for crowns to get that cosmetic they wanted or going to a trader and buying gear they don’t wish to farm.

Carries help other players have some happiness in the toughest part of PvE content....

Then do it for free. I have carried people for free.

Its about the money or else you wouldn't see the spam <Who the hell would spam for carries and do it out of good will?>, and yes, the only reason someone sits on an account/alt account spamming for carry sales is because of the cash earned. [snip]

I have never said the players don't get something out of the carries, the might "bring them happiness", it would be 100% stupid to pay [snip] loads of gold to earn something you hate. I treat it like any of those trading guilds you listed that require donations. Is it a [snip] to run? Prolly, just like any guild with good ol' DKP in raiding. Done that too. Was it out of the kindness of my heart for those players attending? Nope.

It was to get them to attend, thats about it.

[edited for baiting & language]

Ingenon · July 2021

DDiggler wrote: »

1 You can buy crowns with real money. It is a major part of the account system.

2 You can exchange crowns with gold via gifting system. Zos will provide support for any complications arise such as scams, accidents etc.

3 You can buy achievements, skins, titles, gear runs or whatever that can be accomplished with a group with gold. Zos did not state that this transaction is a violation of any rules whatsoever.

You can follow the steps above to buy lets say "Perfected Sul Xan's Dagger" or "Gryphon Heart" or "Sunspire Champion Senche-Lion" with real life money, without any effort whatsoever. And all steps to achieve this pay to win cycle are openly permitted if not encouraged by the game company.

Things like housing, pets, styles or even mounts are cosmetic and does not bother most people to be pay to acquire but best in slot gear and most prestigious achievements(and rewards that come with them) being pay to win is outrageous.

Now preventing runsellers must be exceptionally hard since you cant moderate it beyond banning it from zone chats.

Preventing this chain of shame is only realistically possible by removing gifting crowns beacuse other options would cost a lot of money to the company.

-PLEASE STOP PAY TO WIN PLEASE-

If someone wants to buy a run let them pay it with their hard grinded gold at least

Nope.

People exchange crowns and gold for other reasons than what you say.

In one guild, we have trusted officers who will serve as middleman for the transaction. And folks exchange crowns and gold so the person getting the crowns can buy a house from the crown store, for example, while the person getting the in game gold is buying stuff in guild store for decorating their house. No skins or titles involved.

What you are proposing is like asking the Star Wars Death Star for close air support.

amm7sb14_ESO · July 2021

Alucardo wrote: »

First off, it doesn't need to be removed. Secondly, it's most definitely p2w in a sense. I went from broke to millionaire in 5 minutes. I was able to buy my sets, gold out every single piece with prismatic glyphs, buy gold food and the best potions. Everything except transmutation is basically done with gold. But who needs transmutes when you don't mind paying 600k for the perfect trait.
Having said that, it's not p2w in the "bad" way. Last game I played you could BUY the best weapons and armor from their cash shop. Basically the cash shop provided legendary gear, while the merchants in game only sold white common lol.
The bad p2w gives you an edge over other players. Gold can help min max you, but you won't be any stronger than people who did in game stuff to reach your power level.

Buying gold with real money in a non-official in game capacity is not P2W

There is nothing that is even close to P2W in ESO.

Iselin · July 2021

Gold buying and P2W are two separate things that some of you seem to be confused about.

P2W is buying something from a cash shop, which can only be obtained from the cash shop, that gives you an advantage playing the game.

Buying something with gold, which in ESO can't even be some of the good bind on pick-up gear, is not P2W by any reasonable definition of it.

Trading gifted crown store items for gold is a round-about way of gold selling but not P2W since all you can buy with that gold is gear and items that are not BOP - not even the better gear which is.

ESO is kind of gold seller shy about it too, making the process convoluted (and possibly risky if you don't go through a broker) as opposed to games like WoW that do it much more directly and safely by selling game time tokens that can then be sold in the AH with all the transaction protections of the AH system.

I'm old school and personally have a distaste for any kind of wallet warrior who doesn't earn rewards by playing the game but that's just my personal taste and judgment. But let's call it what it is: it's officially sanctioned gold buying/selling but not even remotely P2W.

FlopsyPrince · July 2021

Calling this Pay 2 Win is quite bogus.

Lots of things they need to do/fix. This is NOT one of them.

spartaxoxo · July 2021

Faulgor wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

You get this. I get this.

But I think we are an older breed of gamer that still cared about such things. Just look through this thread. Nowadays people just don't want to be inconvenienced in the slightest, integrity of the game be damned, and putting down cash for whatever they want right now is just an expectation they have and ZOS is more than happy to fulfill.

It's really quite astonishing. These practices have been a creeping normality, expanding the line of acceptable monetization to the point where legalized gold-buying is not considered P2W by most people. Something I would have considered impossible like a decade ago.

While I agree with you about the creeping normalization of increasing monetization, you make the rest of it sound so condescending.

One thing I've learned from past discussions like this is that everyone has their own definition of "pay to win" and they draw their line in the sand in different places.

I know one guy who considers putting cosmetics like costumes and mounts in the Crown Store to be pay to win.

Some players think any type of paywall is pay to win - they periodically object to having to buy the latest Chapter or DLC in order to get the latest BOP gear or new class. Other players will say it's a pay-to-progress feature of a buy-to-play MMO.

Some players are against any form of pay for convenience or "pay to go faster". Those players were up in arms when ZOS added skill lines and skyshards to the Crown Store.

Some players insist that you have to actually "win" a victory that's inaccessible to players who don't pay. Other players will set the line still farther - if it's not the full money-making tactics of a gacha PVP game or an extreme power grind only bypassed by real money, it's not pay to win.

I don't know where you sit on that spectrum, but I do know that we're only going to have a productive discussion if we can respect that players have a wide variety of perspectives on games and what level of monetization they are willing to accept.

By the way, I sit somewhere in the category of "if you can earn it in game, it's not pay to win" with a side of "Of course you have to buy the latest content to progress!" I farm mats for fun, so I've never had a problem making gold in game, no crowns needed. Then, add in that I play Warframe, where the legalized platinum trade for in-game items that give gameplay-advantages is even more monetized by DE as part of their free-to-play model. Though by the strictest definitions, even Warframe isn't "pay to win" despite having a TON of pay-for convenience features.

So please, let's try to keep in mind that this isn't about "breeds" of gamers or even the "integrity of the game" (if so, do you want the many QOL conveniences since ESO's launch rolled back too? I sure don't!).

It's just about different perspectives on games and what different players want and are willing to accept in terms of monetization. You may draw the line before I do, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss it respectfully.

Frankly I don't mind what people call it. Arguing about semantics, most of the time, just becomes a distraction. Even if we all agreed that it is not Pay2Win (which I can see some arguments for), I'd still find it inherently reprehensible to circumvent rules - and every game has rules, no matter how minor - with money.
I realize that the ship has sailed years ago, and most people are in favor of this now, so I don't argue about this topic anymore. I just wanted to let the OP know that he's not alone.

I guess my comment sounded kind of condescending because in a way, it is. I find it difficult to divorce morality from this topic, because that seems to be what it is about. How much you care about fairness and yes, integrity of equal rules for everyone. As somebody else said, what kind of digital skin you can gain in a video game is really bloody irrelevant compared to the injustices in the real world (e.g. education and health care), but the parallels are so obvious to me that I can't see how you can argue for one and against the other.

Our rejection of corruption doesn't only start when you have to buy your way in, but when you can.
And that's the last thing I'll say on this topic.

@Faulgor

Just to let you know, selling carries has explicitly stated to be within the rules of the game. Selling crowns has also been explicitly stated as being within the rules of the game.

I appreciate you don't want to comment on this train of thought further, so I'll save my take on the rest of your reply. Just wanted to let you know that about these two things! Don't know if that changes anything in-game for you.