Gifting crowns HAS TO be forever removed and here is why

DDiggler

1 You can buy crowns with real money. It is a major part of the account system.

2 You can exchange crowns with gold via gifting system. Zos will provide support for any complications arise such as scams, accidents etc.

3 You can buy achievements, skins, titles, gear runs or whatever that can be accomplished with a group with gold. Zos did not state that this transaction is a violation of any rules whatsoever.


You can follow the steps above to buy lets say "Perfected Sul Xan's Dagger" or "Gryphon Heart" or "Sunspire Champion Senche-Lion" with real life money, without any effort whatsoever. And all steps to achieve this pay to win cycle are openly permitted if not encouraged by the game company.

Things like housing, pets, styles or even mounts are cosmetic and does not bother most people to be pay to acquire but best in slot gear and most prestigious achievements(and rewards that come with them) being pay to win is outrageous.

Now preventing runsellers must be exceptionally hard since you cant moderate it beyond banning it from zone chats.

Preventing this chain of shame is only realistically possible by removing gifting crowns beacuse other options would cost a lot of money to the company.

-PLEASE STOP PAY TO WIN PLEASE-

If someone wants to buy a run let them pay it with their hard grinded gold at least

gariondavey

DDiggler wrote: »

1 You can buy crowns with real money. It is a major part of the account system.

2 You can exchange crowns with gold via gifting system. Zos will provide support for any complications arise such as scams, accidents etc.

3 You can buy achievements, skins, titles, gear runs or whatever that can be accomplished with a group with gold. Zos did not state that this transaction is a violation of any rules whatsoever.


You can follow the steps above to buy lets say "Perfected Sul Xan's Dagger" or "Gryphon Heart" or "Sunspire Champion Senche-Lion" with real life money, without any effort whatsoever. And all steps to achieve this pay to win cycle are openly permitted if not encouraged by the game company.

Things like housing, pets, styles or even mounts are cosmetic and does not bother most people to be pay to acquire but best in slot gear and most prestigious achievements(and rewards that come with them) being pay to win is outrageous.

Now preventing runsellers must be exceptionally hard since you cant moderate it beyond banning it from zone chats.

Preventing this chain of shame is only realistically possible by removing gifting crowns beacuse other options would cost a lot of money to the company.

-PLEASE STOP PAY TO WIN PLEASE-

If someone wants to buy a run let them pay it with their hard grinded gold at least

This isn't pay to win, lol. A mount or a title don't give you any advantage over anyone. Trial gear doesn't make you have an advantage in PvP (nobody uses trial sets) and it won't make you any better in pve than other people (in fact you probably will still do worse - if you could do the dps required you wouldn't be buying it).

No p2w, carry on with your life.

spartaxoxo

Being able to buy carries is completely irrelevant as those are done for coin. And plenty of people have millions of coins without spending a single real cent. It's not linked to the crown store gifting system anymore than anything else in the game that requires coin.

karekiz

They knew about that when they started. Of course they are selling skins w/o directly selling skins to earn cash. I would too if I were ZoS.

If they added skins Directly into the cash shop. People Mad. Ohhh No. People Angry that SELLING achievements. If you allow those that sell skins <Those who would probably be angry if ZoS sold it themselves>, to sell it and you just.....allow the passage for it. Then allllll good.

Tesman85

First off, wouldn't proper pay-to-win mean that ZOS sold these achievements and gear directly? This, on the contrary, is quite a roundabout way compared to that and depends entirely on player-to-player transactions, so it's not really pay-to-win as such. If crown gifting was banned, it would mean undue restrictions to people who just want to give cosmetic things to each other and for those who want to buy gold for whatever other "legitimate" reason (and by current rules, buying a carry run is also perfectly legitimate). Besides, the run-sellers and buyers would just find another channel to do business. It just doesn't seem feasible to police a thing that poses next to no harm for anyone.

Secondly, does someone really care about the titles someone else has? Personally, I don't even know what most of them mean and couldn't care less. If someone wants to be as pathetic as to stroke his/her ego by buying a carry run for such a title/gear item even though their real skill doesn't warrant it, let them. It's quite meaningless in the end. They still know they didn't really deserve it, and so do many of those to whom such titles have any meaning.

DDiggler

gariondavey wrote: »

This isn't pay to win, lol. A mount or a title don't give you any advantage over anyone. Trial gear doesn't make you have an advantage in PvP (nobody uses trial sets) and it won't make you any better in pve than other people (in fact you probably will still do worse - if you could do the dps required you wouldn't be buying it).

No p2w, carry on with your life.

You can buy molten war torte or the better 150% one that i dont remember now with gold as well no?

Anything you can buy in game with gold is buyable with real money. What would you consider pay to win if not this?

Sheezabeast

Crown selling and run selling are two beasts of different backs.

I have income issues irl due to spending time in a domestic violence shelter. Should I not be able to save enough gold to buy some crates or a new costume or a house, if I have the gold? Why should my experience get lumped in with the run sellers?

Don't get me wrong, I strongly dislike run selling. But shutting down crown item gifting would not solve anything. As a result, botting would get out of hand again, and people would still sell things under the table. This just simply would not solve your concerns.

Destai

It's not Pay-to-win, it's pay to progress. It's minutely better, but still wrong IMO. Feels like selling us a solution to a problem they could otherwise fix.

At this point, the crown store isn't going anywhere and we'd all be better served if crown trading was enabled.

Hallothiel

Pay to win *what* exactly? What are you ‘winning’?

waterfairy

gariondavey wrote: »

DDiggler wrote: »

1 You can buy crowns with real money. It is a major part of the account system.

2 You can exchange crowns with gold via gifting system. Zos will provide support for any complications arise such as scams, accidents etc.

3 You can buy achievements, skins, titles, gear runs or whatever that can be accomplished with a group with gold. Zos did not state that this transaction is a violation of any rules whatsoever.


You can follow the steps above to buy lets say "Perfected Sul Xan's Dagger" or "Gryphon Heart" or "Sunspire Champion Senche-Lion" with real life money, without any effort whatsoever. And all steps to achieve this pay to win cycle are openly permitted if not encouraged by the game company.

Things like housing, pets, styles or even mounts are cosmetic and does not bother most people to be pay to acquire but best in slot gear and most prestigious achievements(and rewards that come with them) being pay to win is outrageous.

Now preventing runsellers must be exceptionally hard since you cant moderate it beyond banning it from zone chats.

Preventing this chain of shame is only realistically possible by removing gifting crowns beacuse other options would cost a lot of money to the company.

-PLEASE STOP PAY TO WIN PLEASE-

If someone wants to buy a run let them pay it with their hard grinded gold at least

This isn't pay to win, lol. A mount or a title don't give you any advantage over anyone. Trial gear doesn't make you have an advantage in PvP (nobody uses trial sets) and it won't make you any better in pve than other people (in fact you probably will still do worse - if you could do the dps required you wouldn't be buying it).

No p2w, carry on with your life.

I was going to say roughly the same thing lol. A skin or title isn't a "win" even though most people feel like it is...I don't even equip the tough titles or skins because I don't feel the need to flex and most of them look bad to me

Viewsfrom6ix

I agree with you in some degree. It is indirectly P2W, because ZOS doesn't sell gears directly in the crown store.

But you can use real money to sell crowns for gold and use the gold to buy BiS golded gear without farming for the sets or gold.

But I don't care if people wants to spend their real money to speed up their progress to end game gears. TBH, BiS end game gear can be easily attained with moderate grinding.

So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

gariondavey

DDiggler wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

This isn't pay to win, lol. A mount or a title don't give you any advantage over anyone. Trial gear doesn't make you have an advantage in PvP (nobody uses trial sets) and it won't make you any better in pve than other people (in fact you probably will still do worse - if you could do the dps required you wouldn't be buying it).

No p2w, carry on with your life.

You can buy molten war torte or the better 150% one that i dont remember now with gold as well no?

Anything you can buy in game with gold is buyable with real money. What would you consider pay to win if not this?

The definition of pay to win is when you can get exclusive stuff in the crown store that gives combat advantage. This doesn't exist in the game. Any potion or other consumable is available in both crown store and with gold. Same with tortes.

Eso isn't p2w. If anything it could be p2lookpretty

trackdemon5512

Buying and trying to sell crowns doesn’t guarantee you’ll find a buyer at your price.

Having gold doesn’t guarantee you will find someone to carry you.

Each of those completely negates pay to win.

Also, using gold for “Gryphon Heart” often requires you have someone else play on your account, usually but password sharing which is a bigger no-no than anything else really.

PeacefulAnarchy

DDiggler wrote: »

Anything you can buy in game with gold is buyable with real money. What would you consider pay to win if not this?

P2W, as commonly understood, means there are advantages that can only be gotten with money. The fact that the things you mentioned can only be gotten with gold makes them inherently not P2W, since the person with the gold could have got them as well instead of trading the gold. The crown trading provides a short cut to making gold in game, something everyone could do without paying.

xv1_me

DDiggler wrote: »

1 You can buy crowns with real money. It is a major part of the account system.

2 You can exchange crowns with gold via gifting system. Zos will provide support for any complications arise such as scams, accidents etc.

3 You can buy achievements, skins, titles, gear runs or whatever that can be accomplished with a group with gold. Zos did not state that this transaction is a violation of any rules whatsoever.


You can follow the steps above to buy lets say "Perfected Sul Xan's Dagger" or "Gryphon Heart" or "Sunspire Champion Senche-Lion" with real life money, without any effort whatsoever. And all steps to achieve this pay to win cycle are openly permitted if not encouraged by the game company.

Things like housing, pets, styles or even mounts are cosmetic and does not bother most people to be pay to acquire but best in slot gear and most prestigious achievements(and rewards that come with them) being pay to win is outrageous.

Now preventing runsellers must be exceptionally hard since you cant moderate it beyond banning it from zone chats.

Preventing this chain of shame is only realistically possible by removing gifting crowns beacuse other options would cost a lot of money to the company.

-PLEASE STOP PAY TO WIN PLEASE-

If someone wants to buy a run let them pay it with their hard grinded gold at least

What other people do with their time bothers you so much you need to make a post?

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

VaranisArano

ZOS allows players to sell carries.

Gina Bruno said: "While I don't recall joining anyone's Discord to discuss this, paying gold for carries is not against the TOS. If someone wants to pay a guild millions of gold to be taken through a dungeon or trial, that's up to them and doesn't break any rules. What is against the TOS is paying real world money for a carry, or utilizing an exploit to carry people through an area."
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/503489/selling-carries-group-claims-gina-was-in-their-discord-and-that-it-is-sanctioned/p8

If you goal is to stop the sale of trial carries, then ask ZOS to reverse their policy.

Otherwise, you are just conflating the Gold for Crown Gifts trade and selling carries They are two different issues, since one can earn the gold for carries by other means. What do you think players did before Crown Gifting was a thing?

ruifeio

DDiggler wrote: »

1 You can buy crowns with real money. It is a major part of the account system.

2 You can exchange crowns with gold via gifting system. Zos will provide support for any complications arise such as scams, accidents etc.

3 You can buy achievements, skins, titles, gear runs or whatever that can be accomplished with a group with gold. Zos did not state that this transaction is a violation of any rules whatsoever.


You can follow the steps above to buy lets say "Perfected Sul Xan's Dagger" or "Gryphon Heart" or "Sunspire Champion Senche-Lion" with real life money, without any effort whatsoever. And all steps to achieve this pay to win cycle are openly permitted if not encouraged by the game company.

Things like housing, pets, styles or even mounts are cosmetic and does not bother most people to be pay to acquire but best in slot gear and most prestigious achievements(and rewards that come with them) being pay to win is outrageous.

Now preventing runsellers must be exceptionally hard since you cant moderate it beyond banning it from zone chats.

Preventing this chain of shame is only realistically possible by removing gifting crowns beacuse other options would cost a lot of money to the company.

-PLEASE STOP PAY TO WIN PLEASE-

If someone wants to buy a run let them pay it with their hard grinded gold at least

Easy to fix. Anybody should buy crowns with ESO gold directly in Crown Store.

No more middle guilds in crown trading business. No more trading guilds paying thousands of millions for a trading spot.

All gold should go directly to ZOS, not to somebody making gold for wahteever

Kiralyn2000

1) People have been "run selling" for decades. I remember progression guilds in vanilla WoW, selling runs of their "farm" raids in order to raise the gold to pay for their progression runs. This has absolutely nothing to do with "pay to win". Or cash shops.


2) Being able to exchange in-game currency for cash shop currency is the best means of preventing "Pay to win". Because "pay to win" means that you can buy something only for cash that gives you a power advantage over other players. Who can't compete with you (pvp, leaderboards, etc - direct competition between players) unless they also pay cash.

i.e, those old classic Eastern f2p MMOs, that had better gear in the cash shop. Or open-world/free-for-all/loot-your-gear PvP games, that then sold "insurance" in the cash shop (to keep them from taking your gear). And those enchantment systems where you couldn't survive against other players unless your gear was boosted to +15... which wasn't possible without cash-shop consumables, and if you failed a 1% enchant roll you'd lose the gear. Unless, of course, you bought 'insurance'.



Yeah, nothing about ESO is "pay to win". And run / achievement / loot selling has never been "pay to win".


edit: or, to put it a different way -
Pay To Win is you must pay cash in order to beat other players, not you can pay cash to get something that anyone can get without it.

Techwolf_Lupindo

Years ago, bots was a huge problem in the game. Then Crown gifting came along and when ZOS ok the gold to crown gift extange, bots suddenly became non-profitable and withen a year, nearly all of them disappeared. There is still a few of them out there, but they are using ran by one person for personal gain and not a gold for cash business. That combined with ZOS taking measure against them really cut the bot problem down a level where they are rarely seen unless one goes looking for them.

Phaedryn

DDiggler wrote: »

-PLEASE STOP PAY TO WIN PLEASE-

Nothing in your post is "pay to win" as nothing you identified grants the player an advantage over other players. They have no affect on game mechanics whatsoever.

Phaedryn

DDiggler wrote: »

What would you consider pay to win if not this?

Being able to buy a 10% increase to crit chance with real money.

geonsocal

gariondavey wrote: »

DDiggler wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

This isn't pay to win, lol. A mount or a title don't give you any advantage over anyone. Trial gear doesn't make you have an advantage in PvP (nobody uses trial sets) and it won't make you any better in pve than other people (in fact you probably will still do worse - if you could do the dps required you wouldn't be buying it).

No p2w, carry on with your life.

You can buy molten war torte or the better 150% one that i dont remember now with gold as well no?

Anything you can buy in game with gold is buyable with real money. What would you consider pay to win if not this?

Eso isn't p2w. If anything it could be p2lookpretty

OutLaw_Nynx

What does crown store and selling skin runs have to do with the other?

virtus753

#2 is also incorrect.

ZOS changed the language in their Terms of Service a while back to make it clearer they did not consider themselves obligated to support this “exchange.” They do not see it as an exchange like an in-game trade via the trade window, where each side has to confirm before the trade goes through; they see it as two independent acts of gifting that the gifters have coordinated outside the bounds of the game. The acts are fundamentally independent with respect to the game, in ZOS’ eyes, and if one person refuses to hold up their end of the agreement, which cannot be enforced mutually as with the in-game trade window, then ZOS is not required to provide support. Plenty of folks here have posted to the effect that ZOS did not return money they lost that way after the ToS change. And whatever ZOS does with scammers is obviously not a matter for discussion here. But they’ve been clear they do not consider this something for which they should provide support.

GetAgrippa

I've never sold crowns and I have enough gold to buy all the carries I could dream of. These two things are not related at all.

LyricsEcho

Some players that get paid to carry for titles pay for all gear runs. Why does it matter to you if another player has gold to get a title, gear, cosmetics? End game pve players are a small crowd. It's also hard for hard-core leaderboards players to get in game gold other ways since they are mostly refining their skills in front of damage dummies and wiping in front of bosses for hours on end. Who else do you want to pay for over priced materials?

If the crown store added extra damage or meta gear that is obtainable for crowns then yes that would be pay to win. Zos does a good job at walking a fine line between the two but hasn't fully gone over the line just yet.

jircris11

DDiggler wrote: »

1 You can buy crowns with real money. It is a major part of the account system.

2 You can exchange crowns with gold via gifting system. Zos will provide support for any complications arise such as scams, accidents etc.

3 You can buy achievements, skins, titles, gear runs or whatever that can be accomplished with a group with gold. Zos did not state that this transaction is a violation of any rules whatsoever.


You can follow the steps above to buy lets say "Perfected Sul Xan's Dagger" or "Gryphon Heart" or "Sunspire Champion Senche-Lion" with real life money, without any effort whatsoever. And all steps to achieve this pay to win cycle are openly permitted if not encouraged by the game company.

Things like housing, pets, styles or even mounts are cosmetic and does not bother most people to be pay to acquire but best in slot gear and most prestigious achievements(and rewards that come with them) being pay to win is outrageous.

Now preventing runsellers must be exceptionally hard since you cant moderate it beyond banning it from zone chats.

Preventing this chain of shame is only realistically possible by removing gifting crowns beacuse other options would cost a lot of money to the company.

-PLEASE STOP PAY TO WIN PLEASE-

If someone wants to buy a run let them pay it with their hard grinded gold at least

This once again is not pay to win. Ppl need to understand the term. Pay to win is where i shell out real money to get an advantage you CANT get otherwise. Lets use a browser game for example. I can pay 100 bucks to get an outfit,weapon,pet and wings that gives a MASSIVE stat boost. Those who dont pay never get that boost thus i literally just payed money to win any fight against non paying people.

What eso does happened on EVERY mmo via gold sellers. And you can still earn anything they pay gold for ingame by paying gold your self or doing the work.

In short p2w=advantage gained via real money that is UNOBTAINABLE other wise.

P4c(pay for convince)= paying to not have to do some if the grind.

alberichtano

Sheezabeast wrote: »

Crown selling and run selling are two beasts of different backs.

I have income issues irl due to spending time in a domestic violence shelter. Should I not be able to save enough gold to buy some crates or a new costume or a house, if I have the gold? Why should my experience get lumped in with the run sellers?

Don't get me wrong, I strongly dislike run selling. But shutting down crown item gifting would not solve anything. As a result, botting would get out of hand again, and people would still sell things under the table. This just simply would not solve your concerns.

I am sorry to hear about your situation.

LoneStar2911

GetAgrippa wrote: »

I've never sold crowns and I have enough gold to buy all the carries I could dream of. These two things are not related at all.

Hey, you on PC/NA? Because I could use some more gold. Share the wealth?

ivelbob

Over the years, people have started slapping the "Pay 2 Win" accusation on any kind of monetization they don't like. As a result, the term has become almost meaningless. Crying wolf so much is unhelpful because it distracts us from seeing the truly abusive monetization practices when they come along.

Sju

I'm honestly surprised they haven't been forced to shut this down yet, it is pretty identical to selling gold for real money. It's not p2w though, nothing p2w about cosmetics. But if you're going to ban gold for cash transactions, then ban this too.