So nobody is a fake dd cause we all deal damage. /s

jkerlandsenrwb17_ESO · June 2021

L_Nici wrote: »

You can only be a bad DD, but no fake DD.

That's what they all say, until they pug with me on a DD.

spartaxoxo · June 2021

Chadak wrote: »

Until then...

Asardes · June 2021

zvavi wrote: »

And then i met a bow dk that spams hail on trash packs.

If he leaps the mobs and throws them off your AOE he causes *negative DPS*

Zodiarkslayer · June 2021

zvavi wrote: »

And then i met a bow dk that spams hail on trash packs.

How about a player, that litterally does nothing. Nothing. Just goes with the group and stands still. No abilities, no light attacks. Nothing.

Happens time and again. Just last week I had to votekick one of these very real "fake EVERYTHING!" I think it is Roleplayers or some too cool to contribute type of SOLO player.

The problem in ESO group content is, that noone is held accountable for his own performance. The simple solution is to scale drops and rewards based on a performance ranking. I mean every trial and arena has a quantified performance at the end. So:

Why not in group dungeons?
Why not give the 10 crystal transmute geode, only if you get a "five star" rating?
Why not give 1 crystal if you are bad or fake or whatever; and 10 if you really do fullfill your role.

It is not hard to do that. The precedence is there. The tools are there already. Just have to find the conviction (or courage) to do that!

spartaxoxo · June 2021

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

It is not hard to do that. The precedence is there. The tools are there already. Just have to find the conviction (or courage) to do that!

Real life problems shouldn't change your in-game rewards for content you have cleared.

Asardes · June 2021

I'm a solo player and I play ESO mostly as a single player game nowadays since I don't interact much with other players. When new group content comes out I just PUG once on veteran for dungeons and normal for trials to complete the map icon and I'm done with it. I do daily random normal dungeons for the XP bonus and crystals, queueing as fake tank, meaning the solo DPS setup that I use for veteran arenas but with Inner Fire instead of Rearming Trap, and usually end up doing between 50-70% of group DPS. I do have tanking gear and skill setup but it would be pointless to use it since you can't boost a 10k DPS much with Line Breaker.

Túrin_Vidsmidr · June 2021

starkerealm · June 2021

zvavi wrote: »

madrab73 wrote: »

The CP requirement for vet dungeons needs to be increased.

Higher CP requirement will do nothing. I have seen 1.2k+ CP light attack Legolas bow spammers (vDoM btw, not even a normal vet, but a vet dlc). what we need, is in-game role tutorials with different difficulty levels. that's all. A non judgemental solo environment to learn your role.

PS: there is also the other side of the scale, I have completed vFV with 160 170 and 300 CP's teammates. Don't ask me how they got there, dungeon finder works in mysterious ways.

Back when dinosaurs roamed the Earth, the only requirement to get into vet DLC dungeons was to be level 50. Granted, that was before Frostvault came along. So, the only possible explanation there is that they manually joined their CP300 friend, and you came in. (Originally, I read it as vFL, which yeah, you could just random vet into vet Fang Lair.)

Also, around the same time, I remember coming across a CP1k in a random normal that was hard casting frags. Nothing else, just hard casting frags. This would have been back when the CP spending cap was ~600 - 660 (and the only way you could see CP above that was via addons.)

Raising the requirement would only encourage people to grind in the Alik'r, Skyreach, or wherever else they ended up for slightly longer, it wouldn't improve the quality, and it would serve as a deterrent for legitimately skilled players who are learning the ropes.

starkerealm · June 2021

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

And then i met a bow dk that spams hail on trash packs.

How about a player, that litterally does nothing. Nothing. Just goes with the group and stands still. No abilities, no light attacks. Nothing.

Happens time and again. Just last week I had to votekick one of these very real "fake EVERYTHING!" I think it is Roleplayers or some too cool to contribute type of SOLO player.

This, I have never seen. I'm inclined to believe it happens, I've simply never seen it personally. At least, not in ESO. I have seen RPers in other games stop and start to have elaborate scenes in /say and /emote while pugging into content in other MMOs (I'm thinking, specifically, of Champions Online right now.) But I haven't run across that in ESO, and not the, "I'm too cool to fight, I'll just stand at the sidelines until I decide you need me," behavior.

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

The problem in ESO group content is, that noone is held accountable for his own performance. The simple solution is to scale drops and rewards based on a performance ranking. I mean every trial and arena has a quantified performance at the end. So:

Why not in group dungeons?
Why not give the 10 crystal transmute geode, only if you get a "five star" rating?
Why not give 1 crystal if you are bad or fake or whatever; and 10 if you really do fullfill your role.

It is not hard to do that. The precedence is there. The tools are there already. Just have to find the conviction (or courage) to do that!

You know that trials, and group arenas don't do that either, right? You get the same loot drop whether you're the highest DPS in a trial or the lowest.

Your performance is graded, but it's graded as an entire group.

The second problem is, how are your star grades awarded? If you get them based on some fixed participation, you know it's going to be calibrated so low it doesn't matter.

If it's calibrated in relation to % of group participation, it's going to create more toxicity against those of us who can actually pull reasonable numbers. It wouldn't just be, "oh, they run through the dungeon so fast, and I don't get to even attack anything," it would be, "and they're taking away my rewards, too!" Seriously, it wouldn't surprise me if you saw skilled players getting kicked from PUGs because they'd be negatively affecting the casuals' rewards.

If ratings were awarded by the participants... oh you better believe that would provoke a ton of toxicity.

So, no, this is a bad idea on so many levels, just given the community we have.

Hanokihs · June 2021

Chadak wrote: »

I'd warmly welcome robust tutorials and even role-check solo trials that must be passed before someone can queue up in the groupfinder for Vet dungeons.

Life would be a lot simpler if they just made a role-specific tutorial or mini-dungeon, had it award an achievement, and require that achievement be present on the character before it can que for a vet dungeon in that role. It wouldn't catch every fake player out there, but it would weed out the majority of them who just want to beat the queue times and leave in a hurry.

Naftal · June 2021

Can we just agree that it doesn't matter if you're a bad dd or a fake dd. These people shouldn't be in that role and/or content anyway. Just kick the people who want free carries. It's irrelevant if they try or not. If they can't do it, they can't do it.

Asardes · June 2021

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

I'm actually having a blast in midyear mayham this time around.

There are slackers in BGs too. For example a couple of days ago a player was just AFK in base, doing nothing for most of the match then I started being ironical in group chat about his lack of participation. At the end he PMed me and called me "pleb" and said my DPS is lacking, although it was a Chaos Ball game and I did manage to kill the ball carrier twice, did around 500k damage, and carried the ball enough to get about 100 points. The other 2 were fooling around as well so I was pretty much 1v4v4. Of course we lost but I didn't care much about the lack of participation, but when someone berates you when you were basically the only one playing objectives is just crap.

heng14rwb17_ESO · June 2021

TRUE DD MUST BE AT LEAST 40K DPS !
TRUE TANK MUST AGGRO EVERY MOB !
TRUE HEALER MUST NOT ONLY HEAL BUT DPS ALSO !

IN THE END, TRUE TANK AND HEALER MUST COMPLETE THE DUNGEON EVEN IF ALL DD DIE !

Asardes · June 2021

starkerealm wrote: »

Also, around the same time, I remember coming across a CP1k in a random normal that was hard casting frags. Nothing else, just hard casting frags. This would have been back when the CP spending cap was ~600 - 660 (and the only way you could see CP above that was via addons.)

Though throughout much of the game's history hard casting frags was very clunky and when you saw a player doing it it was a clear sign he was bad, recently they reduced the cast time to 0.8s so it actually became viable as spammable, since the cast time is lower than the GCD so it can be weaved with light attacks. In fact it's one of the cheapest since it can proc off itself, and the base cost is the same as other skills of the same type, such as Force Pulse/Crushing Shock or Elemental Weapon.

https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/crystal-fragments

Tra_Lalan · June 2021

L_Nici wrote: »

Agreed. Same for healers, I don't need that roles anyway. I do it all on my own if needed. Never got why PvE players even complain about that. If they would be better players, they wouldn't need Healers or Tanks.

L_Nici wrote: »

Oh I don't think you want that discussion with a PvP player. You know very well that a 4 player PvP group will easily deal with anything PvE throws at us without the need of roles.

Is this irony? Or you just havent tried the harder PvE content?

Really don't get why pvp players think they are better than pve? Is it because they get to slain pvers doing quests during pvp events?

For me, if you que to a dungeon as a dd with a pvp build (sword and board, 10k dps, 35k hp etc.) you are a fake DD. Seen that too many times, vDoM where every boss fight takes ages..

Its not that hard to change the build for diffrent content just respect other players in the group and respect their time.

Bobby_V_Rockit · June 2021

There are no fake damage dealers, just bad ones… unless of course they are unarmed and have only healing/tanking skills slotted I suppose

Zodiarkslayer · June 2021

starkerealm wrote: »

You know that trials, and group arenas don't do that either, right? You get the same loot drop whether you're the highest DPS in a trial or the lowest.

Your performance is graded, but it's graded as an entire group.

The second problem is, how are your star grades awarded? If you get them based on some fixed participation, you know it's going to be calibrated so low it doesn't matter.

If it's calibrated in relation to % of group participation, it's going to create more toxicity against those of us who can actually pull reasonable numbers. It wouldn't just be, "oh, they run through the dungeon so fast, and I don't get to even attack anything," it would be, "and they're taking away my rewards, too!"

"'Twas 'n idea, Mate. Nod'n answer." - My analogy with the tools implies additional implementation effort. For example considerations like yours are valid, but do neither hinder nor terminate the entirety of my suggestion or the benefit that it would bring.

starkerealm wrote: »

If ratings were awarded by the participants... oh you better believe that would provoke a ton of toxicity.

So, no, this is a bad idea on so many levels, just given the community we have.

You are having it the wrong way around.
"The pond is already muddy. I would very much like to stir it. Only to show the people, that the mirror image on the surface, when the pond is calm, does not show reality!"

Or in other less flowery words: Do not blame the transmission, blame the force.

starkerealm · June 2021

Asardes wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Also, around the same time, I remember coming across a CP1k in a random normal that was hard casting frags. Nothing else, just hard casting frags. This would have been back when the CP spending cap was ~600 - 660 (and the only way you could see CP above that was via addons.)

Though throughout much of the game's history hard casting frags was very clunky and when you saw a player doing it it was a clear sign he was bad, recently they reduced the cast time to 0.8s so it actually became viable as spammable, since the cast time is lower than the GCD so it can be weaved with light attacks. In fact it's one of the cheapest since it can proc off itself, and the base cost is the same as other skills of the same type, such as Force Pulse/Crushing Shock or Elemental Weapon.

https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/crystal-fragments

That's great, but not particularly relevant to events that happened in early 2018.

Though, legitimately, the recent changes to Crystals are to be commended.

starkerealm · June 2021

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

"'Twas 'n idea, Mate. Nod'n answer."

No.

Do not tell me to endorse your terrible idea.

If I'd thought you made a good point, I would have said so.

You did not.

You offered an idea that would result in dramatically more toxicity. You would put players into competition with one another and they would blame each other for not getting what they wanted. Most damning, your suggestion doesn't even solve the problem.

The issue is DPS who don't do enough damage to contribute in a meaningful way. That is not a problem you can solve by putting your PUGs at each other's throats.

MorganaLaVey · June 2021

starkerealm wrote: »

You offered an idea that would result in dramatically more toxicity. You would put players into competition with one another and they would blame each other for not getting what they wanted. Most damning, your suggestion doesn't even solve the problem.

The issue is DPS who don't do enough damage to contribute in a meaningful way. That is not a problem you can solve by putting your PUGs at each other's throats.

Would be fun to watch though

nryerson1025 · June 2021

what do you call 1500 dps between two cp700+ dps then using skills? i have experienced this, i know it is shocking and /or unbelievable

PigofSteel · June 2021

Having 3k penetration in vet dungeons is 50% - 70% less dps. Tanks and healers need to run good sets too...

starkerealm · June 2021

MorganaLaVey wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

You offered an idea that would result in dramatically more toxicity. You would put players into competition with one another and they would blame each other for not getting what they wanted. Most damning, your suggestion doesn't even solve the problem.

The issue is DPS who don't do enough damage to contribute in a meaningful way. That is not a problem you can solve by putting your PUGs at each other's throats.

Would be fun to watch though

I mean, you're not completely wrong.

Thechuckage · June 2021

zvavi wrote: »

madrab73 wrote: »

The CP requirement for vet dungeons needs to be increased.

Higher CP requirement will do nothing. I have seen 1.2k+ CP light attack Legolas bow spammers (vDoM btw, not even a normal vet, but a vet dlc). what we need, is in-game role tutorials with different difficulty levels. that's all. A non judgemental solo environment to learn your role.

PS: there is also the other side of the scale, I have completed vFV with 160 170 and 300 CP's teammates. Don't ask me how they got there, dungeon finder works in mysterious ways.

That right there. Show the people what right looks like and give them feedback on their performance. Feedback on a correctly performed action being the key here. Then you can start looking at the player base as the problem. And no, its not "teaching people how they should play" its the game teaching it own internal systems and how they work. Something as simple as 'bash the enemy to stop their casting' is lost on too many people.

Auztinito · June 2021

Wow. This thread has devolved.

Here’s a few reasons why the vast majority of players in this game aren’t up to yours or ZoS’s standards of dps.

It’s an Elder Scrolls game. This plays nothing like your Oblivion or Skyrim where a vast majority got their start. Their is no freedom in how you play. There is no freedom on what you use. Overland being the only thing reminiscent of Elder Scrolls is why people play.

Tutorials have always sucked. I’m sorry the tutorial is basic as ***. It doesn’t teach bar swapping or attack weaving. It’s like Outriders. They have a tutorial that uses X, Y, Z mechanics but proceeds to play completely different once you get there. Largely ignoring taught mechanics.

Endgame is trash. It’s horribly balanced with top-end players in mind. They’ll make fights easier but a large portion of it is still inaccessible to the average player because of the game’s switch of gameplay, toxicity, and garbage balance.

Toxicity has only been exasperated because players are being forced to be competitive even in PvE modes. Do you want to know why time trials, using parsers, and ect. Guess what, you’ll see players hold that over others heads to kick players or leave. Hence nothing be completed with that person not wanting to run dungeons ever again.

The sudden switch to using BiS skills and gear paired up with the need to bar swap and weave. Guess what? It’s not a fun gameplay loop. It’s not fun for the vast majority. It’s extremely limiting, destroys any player choice, and comes off as unintuitive/clunky gameplay. It’s not fun.

Balance being what it is. A lot of their balance is revolves around top player gameplay. So, this means bar swap and weaving are necessary. This leads into X skill being overall better with next to no player choice in how you play except the class/role you select. Roles being largely useless in a game that promotes build freedom. For an ARPG, it’s horrible design to have tab-target MMOs like FFXIV or Neverwinter have much more dynamic gameplay rotations in comparison.

So ZoS has failed at the core element of PvE. They made it competitive and not cooperative. They have taken the idea that top players set the standards of group content. They have embraced a gameplay loop that is largely unfun for a majority of players. Now, you folks act shocked that you’ll find players that don’t hit your 30k+ dps numbers.

tim99 · June 2021

Túrin_Vidsmidr wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO · July 2021

Auztinito wrote: »

Wow. This thread has devolved.

Here’s a few reasons why the vast majority of players in this game aren’t up to yours or ZoS’s standards of dps.

It’s an Elder Scrolls game. This plays nothing like your Oblivion or Skyrim where a vast majority got their start. Their is no freedom in how you play. There is no freedom on what you use. Overland being the only thing reminiscent of Elder Scrolls is why people play.

Tutorials have always sucked. I’m sorry the tutorial is basic as ***. It doesn’t teach bar swapping or attack weaving. It’s like Outriders. They have a tutorial that uses X, Y, Z mechanics but proceeds to play completely different once you get there. Largely ignoring taught mechanics.

Endgame is trash. It’s horribly balanced with top-end players in mind. They’ll make fights easier but a large portion of it is still inaccessible to the average player because of the game’s switch of gameplay, toxicity, and garbage balance.

Toxicity has only been exasperated because players are being forced to be competitive even in PvE modes. Do you want to know why time trials, using parsers, and ect. Guess what, you’ll see players hold that over others heads to kick players or leave. Hence nothing be completed with that person not wanting to run dungeons ever again.

The sudden switch to using BiS skills and gear paired up with the need to bar swap and weave. Guess what? It’s not a fun gameplay loop. It’s not fun for the vast majority. It’s extremely limiting, destroys any player choice, and comes off as unintuitive/clunky gameplay. It’s not fun.

Balance being what it is. A lot of their balance is revolves around top player gameplay. So, this means bar swap and weaving are necessary. This leads into X skill being overall better with next to no player choice in how you play except the class/role you select. Roles being largely useless in a game that promotes build freedom. For an ARPG, it’s horrible design to have tab-target MMOs like FFXIV or Neverwinter have much more dynamic gameplay rotations in comparison.

So ZoS has failed at the core element of PvE. They made it competitive and not cooperative. They have taken the idea that top players set the standards of group content. They have embraced a gameplay loop that is largely unfun for a majority of players. Now, you folks act shocked that you’ll find players that don’t hit your 30k+ dps numbers.

100% agree

Parasaurolophus · July 2021

Auztinito wrote: »

They have embraced a gameplay loop that is largely unfun for a majority of players.

I disagree. I have mastered the combat system without any problems and am happy with everything. As well as other players I know. l2p

Zodiarkslayer · July 2021

Thechuckage wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

madrab73 wrote: »

The CP requirement for vet dungeons needs to be increased.

Higher CP requirement will do nothing. I have seen 1.2k+ CP light attack Legolas bow spammers (vDoM btw, not even a normal vet, but a vet dlc). what we need, is in-game role tutorials with different difficulty levels. that's all. A non judgemental solo environment to learn your role.

PS: there is also the other side of the scale, I have completed vFV with 160 170 and 300 CP's teammates. Don't ask me how they got there, dungeon finder works in mysterious ways.

That right there. Show the people what right looks like and give them feedback on their performance. Feedback on a correctly performed action being the key here. Then you can start looking at the player base as the problem. And no, its not "teaching people how they should play" its the game teaching it own internal systems and how they work. Something as simple as 'bash the enemy to stop their casting' is lost on too many people.

That has earned an awesome, just like the quoted post by @zvavi.

Honestly this will never change until bad players accept that they are bad. They need to see it black on white, so to say (it's a german idiom, pardon me) that they are bad. The message will never sink in unless the game itself shows them.

That is why I proposed a sort of ranking system. How that would look like? No idea. I am not a game designer. But I can combine information that is readily available to every PC player, Combat Metrics only being the tip of the iceberg.

Would that create more toxicity? No. Would it release already existing toxicity? Highly likely.
Most people either react with aggression or denial to their own shortcomings. It's human.

@starkerealm I hope I made myself clear this time and did not lay any ground for misinterpretation.

spartaxoxo · July 2021

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Would that create more toxicity? No. Would it release already existing toxicity? Highly likely.

Yes. Yes it would create more toxicity. A ranking system of rewards would introduce the inherent toxicity that comes with competitive systems into a cooperative environment. And ranking last wouldn't ever be able to tell the true story of why someone ranked last. For example if some healer was refusing to give buffs or heals to one dps over another, that dps would naturally die a lot and have a worse score than the supported dps. But it would have nothing to do with their personal skill.

You're introducing a system that teaches nobody. And puts people into direct competition for resources. That would only result in toxicity.

On top of that you're encouraging people to embarass low performing members in a public environment and giving them the tools do it, empowering that behavior. That's also gonna breed toxicity.

The best way to reduce toxicity is for zos to offer tutorial style content that players must perform a quality check on that's private, judgment free, and objective.

Not ranking rewards to introduce competitive toxicity into a cooperative task and to set people up to be embarrassed in groups because they haven't been taught anything until they have failed and everyone knows it.

It's a spectacularly awful idea and I'd take a thousand fake dps over it.