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Serious Question to PvE Players
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sunspinner✭✭Ippokrates wrote: »sunspinner wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »I could talk how I was trying to get lead for Malacath in IC or the time when I was grinding XP during event doing both pve & pvp and how many times I've seen toxicity in BG compare to Random Dung (a lot, a lot more...) BUT how many times we can repeat the same story?
You know what? If pvpers want to change mind of the rest of community about them, they should organize themselves & help pvers to do this Mayhem stuff. Secure a location with quests or route to alliance base in IC and patrol in search of gankers and zergs. Then maybe people would see that pvp could also be a fun, instead of being rollover or killed by surprise just trying to do get a ticket.
But that IS part of PvP. Popping out of stealth to attack? I hate it but it's definitely a tactic that is useful. And those I don't mind. There's stealth detection potions, ways to pop people out, so it doesn't occur as much to me anymore because I learned to be more aware of my surroundings. Popping out and dead in two hits? THAT'S why PvEers don't like PvP. What you're proposing is PvE Lite. We shouldn't expect PvPers to change what PvP is in order for us to be happy, just as when PvPers come to the PvE side we shouldn't be crapping on them because they need to learn to play a new style.
And what is satisfying in killing pve dd who has 17k HP and is just trying to get a quest done by attacking from behind?
Want to test yourself? Fight with the best, not the weakest, especially in Ball Group.
And yeah, after some hardships I have learn how to pvp (got 24 kills in a single BG) but I never felt that killing an opponent who doesn't want to fight is a great thing. Even today when I was rolling my DK tank through IC canals I have spared two dominions who lost their way, cause I have seen that they are not attacking even theoretically they had advantage.
And right there you have it...you got 24 kills in a Battleground. Yay for you. But did your team win that Battleground? If your team didn't win that BG, then you're failing to see the problem with BG. BG isn't about how many people you can kill (although it's nice to see that big number, right?). BG is about the game you're playing. If all you're doing in BG is going in to kill people and not win the game, why bother?
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Ippokrates✭✭✭✭✭sunspinner wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »sunspinner wrote: »Ippokrates wrote: »I could talk how I was trying to get lead for Malacath in IC or the time when I was grinding XP during event doing both pve & pvp and how many times I've seen toxicity in BG compare to Random Dung (a lot, a lot more...) BUT how many times we can repeat the same story?
You know what? If pvpers want to change mind of the rest of community about them, they should organize themselves & help pvers to do this Mayhem stuff. Secure a location with quests or route to alliance base in IC and patrol in search of gankers and zergs. Then maybe people would see that pvp could also be a fun, instead of being rollover or killed by surprise just trying to do get a ticket.
But that IS part of PvP. Popping out of stealth to attack? I hate it but it's definitely a tactic that is useful. And those I don't mind. There's stealth detection potions, ways to pop people out, so it doesn't occur as much to me anymore because I learned to be more aware of my surroundings. Popping out and dead in two hits? THAT'S why PvEers don't like PvP. What you're proposing is PvE Lite. We shouldn't expect PvPers to change what PvP is in order for us to be happy, just as when PvPers come to the PvE side we shouldn't be crapping on them because they need to learn to play a new style.
And what is satisfying in killing pve dd who has 17k HP and is just trying to get a quest done by attacking from behind?
Want to test yourself? Fight with the best, not the weakest, especially in Ball Group.
And yeah, after some hardships I have learn how to pvp (got 24 kills in a single BG) but I never felt that killing an opponent who doesn't want to fight is a great thing. Even today when I was rolling my DK tank through IC canals I have spared two dominions who lost their way, cause I have seen that they are not attacking even theoretically they had advantage.
And right there you have it...you got 24 kills in a Battleground. Yay for you. But did your team win that Battleground? If your team didn't win that BG, then you're failing to see the problem with BG. BG isn't about how many people you can kill (although it's nice to see that big number, right?). BG is about the game you're playing. If all you're doing in BG is going in to kill people and not win the game, why bother?
Yeah, they won, cause I am not a certain famous streamer who makes streams during Battlegrounds to show how awesome he is but his team is almost always losing xd
If you have good stamden, which I had, people just... dying, while you can go for objective. Running & chasing escaping folks is below my dignity ^^
(It reminds me a guy on Cyro below 50 who was chasing me from one keep to another but was unable to kill cause I had resto on backbar xd)
So yeah, I am playing pvp to complete objective to get Exp, TC or AP. I don't need to confirm my personal value by killing other gamers.
Edited by Ippokrates on June 24, 2021 2:40PM1 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭trackdemon5512 wrote: »PVP is seriously toxic and barely, if ever, moderated.
It comes across as infantile. I’ve spent 4 years playing this game and PVE chat is downright saintly compared to PvP trash talking.
There’s so much racism, misspelling, hate, cursing that it’s a turn off.
And then PVP players have the gall to whine about literally everything but mainly that Cyrodiil is broken and there is nothing for them to do. Meanwhile they seem to have no problem spending 24 hours in Cyrodiil boosting AP, ganking questers and hate-whispering them about it, and just engaging in literal trollish behavior.
So yeah a lot of PvE players don’t find PVP worth their time.
Funny that you said this because Pve is just as toxic.. if not more than PvP. At least in PvP people don't criticize your lack of dps in the PvP community. you're still welcome to be part of the group. if you're not pulling the amount of DPS that Alcast or Liko is pulling on a parse dummy.. you can't be a part of the core group.. which means no veteran progression for dlc trials for you.. No skin achievements until you become like Alcast. I mean.. what? I can't count how many times I've seen core pvers advertising in craglorn zone that they're selling carries for millions of gold.
Yes.. there are a lot of crappy things that go on in PvP too. I won't deny it.. both PvE and the PvP are equally ***.. but if I had to pick my poison.. I would have to go with the PvP community.. Pve is just too narcissistic for me to deal with.
The difference is, that PVE is not just veteran stuff, actually I dont do this kind of pve, so for me pve is toxic free. But on pvp you can't avoid gankers and other toxic stuff. Until there is a 'nice' pvp mode its just not for me.
And that's the thing.. Mindset. There is nothing wrong with Ganking - its a perfectly valid playstyle in PVP. PVPers have the mindset that they will be attacked/surprised/outnumbered etc.. and understand its part of the game. In fact they would be upset if they didn't get attacked.
To view it as toxic is really your mistake(and the fact that these events pull PVE-ers into PVP zones for the wrong reasons) .. Hate whispers are toxic.. but I've never really encountered that.Minalan owes me a beer.
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Jazraena✭✭✭✭✭
✭And that's the thing.. Mindset. There is nothing wrong with Ganking - its a perfectly valid playstyle in PVP. PVPers have the mindset that they will be attacked/surprised/outnumbered etc.. and understand its part of the game. In fact they would be upset if they didn't get attacked.
To view it as toxic is really your mistake(and the fact that these events pull PVE-ers into PVP zones for the wrong reasons) .. Hate whispers are toxic.. but I've never really encountered that.
It can, however, be a continued source of frustration to someone newly or only occasionally dipping into PvP, which may then understandably contribute to the decision not to bother.
Whether you call that toxic or not ends up being semantics. It's not something that is conductive to attracting new players to PvP.
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FantasticFreddie✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I enjoy both pvp and pve, however I can easily see the overwhelming issues with pvp, especially for new players.
1) Lag. Cyrodiil is outright unplayable at least half of the time. I don't want to fight the game.
2) Trolling, griefing, toxic comments in zone chat, it is NOT a player friendly environment. People will bash and trash talk their own faction, call out specific players by name, etc. You might find that sort of toxicity in ove land, but it is in the rare ultr asweaty groups, and is easily avoided. Cyrodiil it's there in your face and the only way to avoid it is to turn off zone chat and miss any useful callouts, or just load up your block list.
3) No sliding scale of difficulty. Pve you have normal, vet, and hardmode. Pvp is all hardmode all day every day.
4) no sense of progression, no real goal, no end in sight. Just run back and forth all night collecting AP, which your average pver has limited use for.
5) Can be wretched finding a group to play with. Lfg in zone gets radio silence (except for EP, oddly enough).4 -
coop500✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭RandomKodiak wrote: »And to make my point here is another thread also very high on the forum https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/578558/midyear-mayhem-2021#latest
Just read through the first page. PvPers lining up to try to make sure PvErs can't or at least won't have any fun during this event. This is why you get so many who hate this event and that there are tickets locked behind it explained by the people who are the problem. Sanctioned harassment, yeah that's fun.
Amusingly enough the most trolly comment is from the OP of THIS thread.
Theo_VVS: MY NEW STAM SORC CAN TASTE PVEers BLOOD ALREADY LOOOOOOOL
Bottom comment on first page of the thread you posted.Hoping for more playable races8 -
Tolath✭Not sure if i understand this whole PvP vs PvE thing.
For me its more like Competitive vs Casual.
Nearly all Player vs Player activities of any game is competitive as there are winners and a losers.
Any Player vs Environment aspect of the game that compares you with different players is competitive as well.
(ranking trials, Arenas Etc).
Even when you trying to beat a trial,Raid,World Boss first its competitive as well, you are up against other groups of players in that regard.
we can clarify that they are activities that its you against another players directly (BG, Cyrondil, Imperial City etc) and some other activities that are indirectly (Veteran score runs,trials,world's first etc).
All such activities are competitive and have player vs player aspects.
Personally depends on my mood,time and real life things, but i enjoy both competitive and casual play.
The only really problem when you doing competitive play in general it's game technical issues like (serve lag, bugs , exploits).
(Not that's acceptable when you play casual but its not a matter of win or lose)
I will not explain every game mode in particular but in general waiting time is something i don't like.
(Riding for long time until i get to action in Cyrondil or waiting for a lot of time in queue)0 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭And that's the thing.. Mindset. There is nothing wrong with Ganking - its a perfectly valid playstyle in PVP. PVPers have the mindset that they will be attacked/surprised/outnumbered etc.. and understand its part of the game. In fact they would be upset if they didn't get attacked.
To view it as toxic is really your mistake(and the fact that these events pull PVE-ers into PVP zones for the wrong reasons) .. Hate whispers are toxic.. but I've never really encountered that.
It can, however, be a continued source of frustration to someone newly or only occasionally dipping into PvP, which may then understandably contribute to the decision not to bother.
Whether you call that toxic or not ends up being semantics. It's not something that is conductive to attracting new players to PvP.
/Agreed. It's a damn steep learning curveMinalan owes me a beer.
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Galbsadi✭✭✭Kalik_Gold wrote: »PvE to get gear and skills, and passives. To then PvP.
.
I main a healer.
I PvP to get skills and passives, or even some gear sets that I need for certain trials.
...to then PvE.1 -
Galbsadi✭✭✭I see a lot of “PvP is toxic” but are we forgetting that PvE players abandoned dungeon groups because someone isn’t doing all too well? Both sides have their flaws.
I really WANT to agree with you, but I can't.
Every time I zone into a battleground there's at least 4 people that want to just go murder hobo rather than actually play the game. (Team Deathmatch doesn't count, b/c there the objective IS to murder hobo.) By comparison, the worst I see in most dungeons is that 1-2 people typically want to do the objectives very quickly.
Every time I zone into Cyrodiil, it's almost always a large swath of players from a single faction demolishing somebody else. This isn't fun from either side (I've been both part of the zerg and subject to it.) Very rarely do you get two zergs clashing and creating something that might actually be fun. By comparison, most PvE content doesn't even allow for this to be possible, and where it does, there are typically enough NPCs or variety to make it still interesting (a la two zergs clashing). Exceptions exist, of course (I hate Harrowstorms).
Every time I zone into IC, the only time I see players from the opposing faction is either in groups picking off single players or nightblades permacloaking between ganking someone fighting an NPC. Yes, that's part of PvP, and I expect it (they're basically the equivalent of rogues in WoW [whom I also hate, btw]). There is no PvE comparison to this.
I've ran into less than a dozen toxic PvE players in several years of playing this game.
I've probably ran into more than a dozen PvP players in the past week.
Yes, they both have toxic players, but they are NOT the same.3 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I must be weird because I like hanging out and pvping with my friends in guilds and having a good time.
In the end we are all gamers but I guess it is human nature to create divisions and point fingers at the other guy.0 -
tomofhyrule✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It's simple - you need to have a certain mindset to enjoy PvP, and it's not universal.
PvE with others is inherently cooperative, PvP with others is inherently competitive. True, you can get into [body part]-measuring contests with other PvErs about your parses or join with friends in PvP to take others down, but the inescapable fact is that in PvE you're fighting the computer and in PvP it's another person.
Some people, especially those with anxiety, do not find enjoyment in fighting other people or competing against other people. And nothing anyone says is going to make that anxiety suddenly evaporate. Forcing the non-PvP crowd to do PvP is not going to increase the number of PvPers, it's just going to increase the number of people resentful with this game.7 -
Dagre2✭✭✭i do both, i enjoy both. watching people with control issues flip out in both when they don't get their way is entertaining at times but i mostly just ignore it and focus on why i'm there in the first place, which is to play a game. at this point in my gaming, i mostly just do solo stuff if i'm not in a group with rl friends or family. its why i like WvWvW in gw2 and cyrodiil when it comes to pvp. i can go in there, screw around for awhile and vanish when i'm done and nobody really cares cause they're all just doing their own thing also.0
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Sylosi✭✭✭✭✭
✭What do you guys have against PvP?
Simply that it isn't very good. As skilled, competitive or even fun PvP goes, what you have in ESO is laughable.
If I want good, fun, skilled PvP I can play Starcraft, DOTA 2, Rainbow Six SIege, etc that all have a far higher skill cap, have a degree of balance that this game will never have and have actual skilled, functioning PvP game modes.
But then even if I ignore all that, the biggest issue is how non-competitive it is, how difficult it is to get decent action (even by the low the standards of MMORPG PvP). If I go play a team based shooter and am say low Diamond to use a generic rank, my friends and I have zero interest in playing bronze players who are less experienced, way more casual, etc. Because all it would produce is boring, one sided, low skilled PvP that is not fun for us nor them.
Yet in ESO (Cyrodil especially) that is what you get served up most of the time, because there is no real mechanism to produce competitive PvP which is the basis for skilled and more importantly fun, satisfying PvP in games.
So essentially the PvP in ESO fails to appeal to actual PvP gamers (i.e - people who actually want decent PvP gameplay), so is only fit for casual mucking around on, or for those who want to roleplay they are fighting for the realm or roleplay that they are "skilled" zerging down half their numbers or roleplay they are "skilled" beating less experienced, more casual players.
Edited by Sylosi on June 24, 2021 3:42PM1 -
BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭
✭What do you guys have against PvP? I’m not saying all but a majority of you guys despise PvP. Doesn’t spamming the same rotation at a trial boss all day get boring? With PvP it’s never a boring moment and always different outcomes. There’s so many sets players can theory craft and make there character so unique and have others wondering “Wow that was cool, what sets do you run?” But with PvE it’s mother sorrows or relequen on almost every build. I understand the satisfaction of clearing a trial and getting cool skins and loot but then what’s next? With PvP: winning a duel, 1vX , or dropping 20+ kills in a BG with a build you made by yourself is far more satisfying in my opinion, and after that you can come up with a new build and so on. There’s never a boring moment. Although at the end of the day i understand why many choose to play PvE other than PvP. Some may think the skill gap is too high for them to just start into PvP. Some may think it’s too sophisticated to develop proper burst. There’s a lot a reason why many choose PvE other than PvP, but there’s no need to hate it. The learning curve may be steep but anyone can develop skill with effort applied. Much Love to all ESO players
Actually, even though I'm primarily a PVE player, I do love to mix it up in PVP. Specifically, Cyrodil though, because I hate BG's. But PVP is so hit or miss. Sometimes you get on and if there are only a few objectives to take, there is really little point in playing (few points to earn) and if you only have your home keeps - basically there's no point in playing because there aren't enough of your alliance on to make a significant impact. The lag is a persistent source of frustration. Then toss in the fact that PVP often brings out the most toxic behavior in people and IMO its easy to see why PVP is not well liked.
Toss in the fact that many balancing changes (not all) are solely because of PVP, and that just adds more fuel to the anti-PVP sentiment. The reality is that in a game like ESO, PVP will never be "balanced" so to speak because you have different classes with different strengths and weaknesses, and yet, PVP players seem to want perfect balance where any class can kill anyone of another class (assuming zero lag and equal skill and equal access to gear), when that isn't how a game like this should work. A game like this should be balanced around a Rock-Paper-Scissors model where Class X beats Class Y - Class Y beats Class Z, and Class Z beats Class X. But players don't like that kind of balancing because players will often win just because of the class they are on rather than "skill." However, rather than accept that model, PVP players often advocate for a balanced playing field across the board which is something that is just impossible to achieve in a game like this, and yet, their pursuit of that ideal often leads to negative changes in PVE.
Need an example? People often complain about unkillable tanks in PVP that can also kill, but anything done to reduce tankiness in PVP will ultimately make life more difficult for tanks in PVE, and tanks already have the toughest job in PVE.2 -
Danikat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think there's a few factors in why I don't enjoy PvP. I suspect a big one is that I'm simply not competitive in games. I like theory crafting and designing my own builds but I only care about whether they suit the theme and requirements I have for them, I couldn't care less about whether or not someone else could kill me with their build. If they think they can I'm happy to agree that's likely to be the case and then we can both go on with our day.
I'm mainly interested in ESO for the lore, world building and stories and you get very little of that in PvP. Everything interesting about the Alliance War can be explored more effectively in PvE maps and quests which deal with the background and how the peoples of Tamriel perceive the war than by playing the part of one of the pawns throwing themselves at a wall because some idiot thinks their people are destined to rule the world. (I don't think it helps that we already know the entire thing is futile because in a few hundred years they're all going to be overtaken by a new faction and in about 1000 years will still have the same attitudes.)
Given the relative lack of story going round and round the map capturing and recapturing the same keeps and town over and over and over again doesn't sound appealing. In fact it sounds about as exciting as going through the same trial again and again, something else I don't do. But I have done all the PvE activities in Cyrodiil; I've got all the skyshards, completed all the delves and I think I've done all the quests at least once.
On the rare occasions I do feel like playing PvP I'm more inclined to play Guild Wars 2's version, which seems largely similar but faster paced, but I still get bored with it relatively quickly and go back to PvE. Also less likely to crash if more than 10 people show up, which is the other problem I've had with Cyrodiil. On some occasions even seeing a large group ride past has been enough to crash the game so I have to start whatever I was doing again which gets pretty tedious if it happens more than once in an evening given how far you have to go to get to anything in that map.PC EU player | She/her/hers | PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
"Remember in this game we call life that no one said it's fair"4 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
They arent the same, for sure, but not because one has more or less than the other.
The statement that you quoted essentially compares a mode of play (PvP) to a subset of players (PvE players).
In PvE, especially group content, you can avoid random players completely if you want. The daily random dungeons, both pledges and random, do not require random players. They can be completed with a group of friends in an instance completely isolated from the rest of the server. Trials are much the same way and probably even more exclusive since guilds are primary venue for them. Outside of group content you dont have to play with others nearly as often and usually you just have to tolerate their existence. You can chose to exclude those you might deem toxic if you want while PvP has no such option.
In PvP you have no choice but to interact with other players. Even if/when you form a group you're interacting with other players outside of your group.
Most people tend to assume that because they meet a player in a given type of content that they primarily play there. That's not always the case. For instance, when someone is killed during MYM they will assume that its a PvPer, even though the popultion has more than doubled since the previous week's suggesting that their odds of encountering someone who primarily PvPs has dropped significantly during the event.
I do tend to agree that overall PvP has fewer toxic players, but likely more encounters that seem that way because you have to play with other people.
Overall, people are just people.
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Mik195✭✭✭✭✭
✭I can only physically handle a one bar, one potion, no ultimate build so unlikely I could ever be competitive.
But, I'm here for the story and Three Banners War is stupid. Ms. I want a new bestie and Misters Don't tell anyone I'm scared want to sit on the pretty throne while a daedric prince is doing pretty well at munching Cyrodill. Seriously, I get that royals are stupid, but priorities! The only logical step for the vestige is to kill the idiots, take over the alliances and kick Molag Ball's (censored) again.1 -
]What do you guys have against PvP?
I don't like it. I literally do not care for the attitude around "kill other players". I stopped gaming for FIFTEEN YEARS because I hate PVP.
I *hate* having to participate in midyear mayhem to get event tickets for things I want. And I know a lot of PVPers hate midyear mayhem because it effs up their ability to play their game, because they get inundated with a bunch of players who don't want to be there in the first place, and it screws up the queue. This is like, the single thing I agree with PVP players on, and I agree with them on that HARDCORE.
One of many things that I loathe is the fact that during events like MYM, those of us who are not serious PVPers go into one of the lower-level campaigns, where experienced high CP infantile bullies are waiting to gank players. Seriously? How old are these people?
I’m not saying all but a majority of you guys despise PvP.
I despise the attitude a *large* number of PVP players have towards PVE players. The superiority complex is so ridiculous that I'm shocked some of them can walk, as big as their heads are. There is an enormous amount of derision, sometimes quite vicious, from some PVPers to PVEers in general. Like "alt right versus antifa" vicious wording. It's frankly alarming and I don't care to be around it. (If I quoted what I'd heard in zerg chat, I'd get banned from the forums, and I'd probably get kicked off the game). It's worse than the crap I've heard in zone chat, and I'm convinced zone chat is where the internet goes to die. It's like, "nobody knows who I really am so I can be as deliberately offensive and obnoxious as possible".
Doesn’t spamming the same rotation at a trial boss all day get boring?
It probably would; I wouldn't know, because that's not what I'm doing.
With PvP it’s never a boring moment and always different outcomes.
Sure. PVP seems to be two things: capturing the same thing over and over & killing other players. Capture keeps, capture resources, run to the next keep/resource, capture it, then go back and recapture the one you captured five minutes ago, lather/rinse/repeat. Other option: keep ganking individual players. Yeah, that's a laugh riot, right there.
There’s so many sets players can theory craft and make there character so unique and have others wondering “Wow that was cool, what sets do you run?”
Shockingly enough, you don't have to be hellbent on player murdering to theory craft. It's something you can do in PVP as well.
But with PvE it’s mother sorrows or relequen on almost every build.
I know literally nobody running Relequen, I know a number of magsorcs not running Mother's Sorrow, so I don't know where you're getting this information. A number of trials and/or trial groups REQUIRE that the tanks have sets complimentary to each other, and the healers have sets complimentary to each other, and the mag players have sets complimentary to each other, and the stam players have sets complimentary to each other. That's twenty four different sets and twelve different monster sets, and that doesn't count any arena gear or antiquities.
I understand the satisfaction of clearing a trial and getting cool skins and loot but then what’s next?
Uh, crafting, furnishing, housing, public dungeons, Undaunted dungeons on normal and vet (with a group or solo), farming rare drops, delves, fighters/mages/thieves/Dark Brotherhood guild quests, scrying & excavation, dolmens, dragons, Harrowstorms, Oblivion portals, helping new players out, companions...there's more, and also that pesky thing called "in-game quests" that the developers have put an enormous amount of effort into.
With PvP: winning a duel, 1vX , or dropping 20+ kills in a BG with a build you made by yourself is far more satisfying in my opinion, and after that you can come up with a new build and so on.
How is a PVP player "making a build by themselves" any different from a PVE player doing the *exact same thing*?
There’s never a boring moment.
I personally find running around in circles doing the same thing incessantly to be boring and tedious.
Although at the end of the day i understand why many choose to play PvE other than PvP. Some may think the skill gap is too high for them to just start into PvP.
See..this statement right here is "PVP and PVP players are FAR superior to PVE and PVE players". It's toxic, it's crap, and I don't want to be around people with this mentality.
Some may think it’s too sophisticated to develop proper burst.
Oh goodie, more toxicity. Just what we needed.
There’s a lot a reason why many choose PvE other than PvP,
None of which you seem to understand beyond "they aren't good enough to play with 'real' players".
but there’s no need to hate it. The learning curve may be steep but anyone can develop skill with effort applied. Much Love to all ESO players
Even when I'm in a group with players who are not toxic, even when I'm playing against other non-toxic groups, I SIMPLY DO NOT LIKE PVP. And I'm seriously sick of PVP players *constantly* prancing in and demanding to know why I won't spend *my* free time the way they think I should, why I'm not using *my* free time to entertain them. It's obnoxious.
I see a lot of “PvP is toxic” but are we forgetting that PvE players abandoned dungeon groups because someone isn’t doing all too well? Both sides have their flaws.
I have absolutely not forgotten it. Sometimes, you can tell you're not going to complete a dungeon or a boss, and you leave because there's no point in continuing. Sometimes it's a more difficult dungeon, or one that requires communication (RoM for example) and the other players either do not have or will not use mics. I was in normal Fungal Grotto 1 one time, and another player (who had a female name for a gamer tag, so I'll use female pronouns for that player) was level 17, no CP. She had absolutely no idea WTF was going on, no clue as to the mechanics or any of it. The tank kept trying to kick her because she wasn't "performing". I kicked him. Where else is a beginning player supposed to start besides literally the easiest dungeon in the game?
Here's the difference: that player was kicked out of the dungeon, thus kicked out of the zone, and then *the zone was free of toxicity*. The NPCs didn't jump out from behind a wall and start screaming obscenities and insulting people's family and parentage. It just stopped.
But PVEers can't go into a zone filled with toxicity by it's very nature and expect to not get drowned in toxicity.
You like PVP? GREAT! I'm happy for you. Go do PVP; there's a lot of it ESO. But for the love of god, PVPers in general need to stop demanding that everybody like the same things they like and play the same way they play.
I'm not demanding you do PVE, why do you feel it's appropriate to demand I do PVP?
I'm not telling you "you're wrong for not enjoying PVE"; why do you feel it's appropriate to tell me "you're wrong for not enjoying PVP"?
I'm not telling you "you're not playing the game right", why are you telling me that? Who died and left you in charge of my life?xBox NA
Anana Giacoso - CP Dark Elf Mag Sorc
Drinks-Scorpion-Venom - CP Argonian magplar healer
Officer: Reapr Crw (casual social guild)]18 -
Parasaurolophus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Because many players complain that some things can only be obtained for pvp. Many people disagree with the fact that an MMO is a large amount of diverse content that requires your attention, if only just for acquaintance. And it seems to me that this is not correct. If you like the game, then any content is worth conquering. I just do not understand. Many players, if they need to get something in pvp, they find themselves in a real disaster on the forum.I'm not telling you "you're not playing the game right", why are you telling me that? Who died and left you in charge of my life?PC/EU0 -
hakan✭✭✭✭✭What do you guys have against PvP? I’m not saying all but a majority of you guys despise PvP. Doesn’t spamming the same rotation at a trial boss all day get boring? With PvP it’s never a boring moment and always different outcomes. There’s so many sets players can theory craft and make there character so unique and have others wondering “Wow that was cool, what sets do you run?” But with PvE it’s mother sorrows or relequen on almost every build. I understand the satisfaction of clearing a trial and getting cool skins and loot but then what’s next? With PvP: winning a duel, 1vX , or dropping 20+ kills in a BG with a build you made by yourself is far more satisfying in my opinion, and after that you can come up with a new build and so on. There’s never a boring moment. Although at the end of the day i understand why many choose to play PvE other than PvP. Some may think the skill gap is too high for them to just start into PvP. Some may think it’s too sophisticated to develop proper burst. There’s a lot a reason why many choose PvE other than PvP, but there’s no need to hate it. The learning curve may be steep but anyone can develop skill with effort applied. Much Love to all ESO players
i agree
also they always blame pvp for nerfs even though half of it comes from pve plus most of the nerfs dont benefit pvp at all
and they complain about toxicity in pvp meanwhile people kick each other from dungeons/trials for various stuff and hate whisper them, kicking-trashing anyone who doesnt use the same item sets all the time.2 -
hakan✭✭✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »I used to PvP in some older games (I battleground my way up to Rank.... 8? 9?... in vanilla WoW, for example), but I haven't in a long time. For a variety of reasons.Doesn’t spamming the same rotation at a trial boss all day get boring?
Yeah, that sounds incredibly boring. Part of why I don't do that part of PvE (or the associated things, like pounding away at a target dummy to perfect that "rotation").With PvP it’s never a boring moment and always different outcomes.
See, that's the thing - in my experience, PvP is just as dull & repetitive - you die, other guy dies, you guy, other guy dies, etc. Frantically running back & forth, spamming CC's/Stuns/Executes. It's all the same, not this supposed "all so interesting and different!" that's frequently touted by PvPers. At least that's how it feels to me.
Among the other reasons I don't bother with PvP:
- I'm not really competitive. Either with myself or others. I don't chase PvE leaderboards, I don't care that much about squeezing out max DPS, I don't 'theorycraft' builds or follow meta, I don't care if Some Other Guild "world-firsted" that content before me. I don't play games on Max Difficulty To Prove Myself. And I don't care to beat some other dude in PvP.
- that fraction of PvPers who are the cause of all the negative stereotypes. The griefers, bullies, hyper-competitive jock types, "I'm not actually a sociopath, I just play one online!", etc. Yeah, I know it's not all of them. But it's enough of them.The learning curve may be steep but anyone can develop skill with effort applied.
In the end, I just don't care to. /shrug
that "repetitive" part is very insteresting. like what do you mean?
imo you just try to build your own character meanwhile taking consideration of the meta and try to beat other people. its a game about killing stuff so of course those will exists.
like you can apply that "kill, die, repeat" part to everything, so i just dont understand what you mean there.1 -
Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo✭✭✭✭✭
✭I spent one million on my newest setup for no cp pvp...I still implode to zergs...money well invested
4 -
hakan✭✭✭✭✭MasterSpatula wrote: »For a few weeks there when the no-proc thing was new, PVP was a blast again. People were on roughly even footings. There was some imbalance, even right at the beginning, but mostly it was a fun, challenging, keep-you-on-your-toes gameplay. REACTIVE gameplay, rather than the PREDICTIVE gameplay of PVE. It was PVP at its best. It was what PVP should be. It didn't last, because people quickly figured out how to give themselves advantages even in no-proc, but for a shining moment, ESO PVP wasn't a cesspool.
Apparently, the PVP community largely hated it.
This isn't just on ZOS. This is on the ESO PVP community, too. They didn't want balance. They didn't want reactive gameplay against challenging opponents on a roughly even footing. They wanted advantages. They felt cheated not being able to theorycraft their way into advantages. They despised the short couple of weeks where only a tiny number of people had figured out how to have high resistance, massive health, the ability to heal to full from 1/4 health even though specced healers can't pull that off, and nonsensical burst damage.
They wanted back the ability to sit in stealth through an entire siege just so they could bomb several players unable to put up even the slightest defense because they're stuck in repair animation at the door. I can't even conceive of doing that without being sickened at oneself, but some players were mad it was gone, and hey! It's back!
During no-proc, they managed to find ways to pull off imitation ball groups, but that just wasn't good enough. Who wants a good fight against foes that present a challenge when being part of a runaway bulldozer mowing over everything in its path is available? Well, it's back. No more risk of the other team having anything but a miserable experience! After all, that's what PVP is, right? It's not about competition against challenging opponents. It's about ruining someone else's day.
There've been times in this game where PVP was a blast. But the imbalance has gotten way out of hand. No one seems to want balance.
They want Light Armor users to fall over at the very sight of a two-hander. (Seriously, I got a hate tell from someone recently after a 1v1 because I kept streaking away and turning back to attack. He eventually won and then sent me a hate tell for dragging out the fight instead of just standing there and taking a D-Swing/Executioner combo to the face. That's how bad it's gotten: 2H MA users feel entitled to quick wins against LA users!)
They want to cast four delayed abilities and a fifth instant-cast ability so all five land at the same time. Boom! Effectively a one-shot. Reactive combat? Who had time for that? Winning is all that matters.
Balance in this game has become an atrocity, and every single attempt to improve balance since before Morrowind had made balance worse. The number of players who can't even wrap their brains around the idea of thinking it's gross to take advantage of imbalance is high enough that if you want to compete at all your choices are join them or leave. I PVP less and enjoy myself less when I do so, but I still go in. With a good group, I can still have fun. But, of course, good groups are harder to find because the group size limit makes groups more selective on who they invite.
It all combines to drive away the players who are fun to PVP with and the players who are fun to PVP against.
This game used to have the best PVP I'd ever experienced. Both ZOS and the players share the blame for ruining that. It's not about good fights and a challenge anymore. It's not about reactive combat anymore. It's about finding advantages. It makes me want to take multiple showers.
i agree with your balance comments though i didnt read them all. i hate the kneejerk reactions of nerfing and completely overhaul and STANDARDIZE EVERYTHING philosophy.
as for" players found advantage over others" part; i mean thats the whole thing. make situations to gain advantages over them. thats pvp.
what i hate is an All Rounder build that does eveything as good as any other build. Like 60k health with a good regen- burst damage ( dawnbreaker, proc set damage, wrecking blow plus either shalks or bones ) - good amount of cc build.
at somewhere the player, the character has to give openage for other players.
this isnt the single player skyrim.1 -
josiahva✭✭✭✭✭
✭What do you guys have against PvP? I’m not saying all but a majority of you guys despise PvP. Doesn’t spamming the same rotation at a trial boss all day get boring? With PvP it’s never a boring moment and always different outcomes. There’s so many sets players can theory craft and make there character so unique and have others wondering “Wow that was cool, what sets do you run?” But with PvE it’s mother sorrows or relequen on almost every build. I understand the satisfaction of clearing a trial and getting cool skins and loot but then what’s next? With PvP: winning a duel, 1vX , or dropping 20+ kills in a BG with a build you made by yourself is far more satisfying in my opinion, and after that you can come up with a new build and so on. There’s never a boring moment. Although at the end of the day i understand why many choose to play PvE other than PvP. Some may think the skill gap is too high for them to just start into PvP. Some may think it’s too sophisticated to develop proper burst. There’s a lot a reason why many choose PvE other than PvP, but there’s no need to hate it. The learning curve may be steep but anyone can develop skill with effort applied. Much Love to all ESO players
I am mainly PvE, but I do PvP often enough to be familiar with both. I don't think most PvE players have anything against PvP per-se. Its more that PvP is even more toxic than the trial scene. In PvE your main goal is working together to overcome content....in contrast in PvP its all about each person individually trying to be an unkillable hero...which of course leads to whatever the flavor of the month cancer build is. Yes, of course your have organized PvP groups working together....but running with those groups the feel I always get is that you are only there to help the leader of the group farm AP, get emp, etc. Only in PvP do you get hate whispers from other players...whether its because you killed them, or whether its because you didn't die to their build, you get teabagged all the time when you die...even if the person doing the tea bagging had nothing to do with killing you. You have zergs who run down one or two players just trying to get out of the way, you have any number of opportunists who will pile on whenever they see a fair fight, ruining the entire thing. In general PvP is just toxic compared to PvE(though there are some toxic group encounters in PvE as well)...but I am used to PvP, none of that particularly bothers me.
More importantly, PvP has a very negative effect on PvE in the way that PvP is the cause of nerfs to gear and skills that used to be awesome in PvE. Take DK wings for instance....it was a very powerful tool for mag DK survivability in PvP...now its barely worth slotting(not like mag DK had much else going for it aside from fossilize/whip combo when it comes to PvP). On the PvE side...I used to be able to use wings as a tank to solo Chudan in vRoM....I suppose I technically still could, but it would take as long as light attacking if I tried.
Your view of PvE is skewed because what you see a lot of people talking about is whatever the flavor-of-the-month sets...there are many many players out there who try any number of off-beat or niche sets and make great builds out of them. but as a direct consequence of running those sets they do not get invited to trials. Meta is rather self-reinforcing in that way, the more off the beaten path you go, the more restricted you are in the PvE content you have access to. As an example, on my pug tank, for many specific fights I will wear Shacklebreaker and Kagrenac's Hope. Shacklebreaker is quite popular in PvP for obvious reasons but you only rarely see it in PvE, while Kags is so niche I doubt much anyone uses it anymore(probably PvP if anywhere)...but it shines in many a PvE fight if you are in a pug group, it prevents a lot of wipes.
You do have a point about PvE fights being repetitive....but the challenge is more that the group composition is constantly changing(unless you just have one guild or set of friends you run with) especially when its a pug....which allows the circumstances to be vastly different...in the end you are absolutely correct though, PvP fights are far more dynamic and interesting...the problem is people running cancer builds and farming people who jump into Cyro on their PvE builds does not encourage those PvE players to give PvP a real chance. In general the rule works both ways, PvP builds are garbage in PvE and PvE builds are garbage in PvP. For that matter, I am sure its even worse now with CP2.0...to be optimized you have to redistribute all your CP too...which makes PvP a completely different game than PvE....and yet ZOS refuses to see that reality and separate the skills and sets in each correctly.4 -
renne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭trackdemon5512 wrote: »PVP is seriously toxic and barely, if ever, moderated.
It comes across as infantile. I’ve spent 4 years playing this game and PVE chat is downright saintly compared to PvP trash talking.
There’s so much racism, misspelling, hate, cursing that it’s a turn off.
And then PVP players have the gall to whine about literally everything but mainly that Cyrodiil is broken and there is nothing for them to do. Meanwhile they seem to have no problem spending 24 hours in Cyrodiil boosting AP, ganking questers and hate-whispering them about it, and just engaging in literal trollish behavior.
So yeah a lot of PvE players don’t find PVP worth their time.
Funny that you said this because Pve is just as toxic.. if not more than PvP. At least in PvP people don't criticize your lack of dps in the PvP community. you're still welcome to be part of the group. if you're not pulling the amount of DPS that Alcast or Liko is pulling on a parse dummy.. you can't be a part of the core group.. which means no veteran progression for dlc trials for you.. No skin achievements until you become like Alcast. I mean.. what? I can't count how many times I've seen core pvers advertising in craglorn zone that they're selling carries for millions of gold.
Yes.. there are a lot of crappy things that go on in PvP too. I won't deny it.. both PvE and the PvP are equally ***.. but if I had to pick my poison.. I would have to go with the PvP community.. Pve is just too narcissistic for me to deal with.
Minimum DPS requirements aren't toxic though? I've been in plenty of pugs of casual PvErs wanting to try even vet Crags trials and not being able to do it because their DPS is too low - because low DPS means the fights take longer which means longer times exposed to mechanics, which means more people die and then the group wipes. If anything, expecting or demanding to be on core teams or prog groups just because you play the game is the toxic behaviour. Expecting to be carried by people who've actually put in the time and effort to improve themselves while you just turn up is toxic. Like HOW DARE anyone expect you to be fully competent in your role.1 -
trackdemon5512✭✭✭✭✭
✭trackdemon5512 wrote: »PVP is seriously toxic and barely, if ever, moderated.
It comes across as infantile. I’ve spent 4 years playing this game and PVE chat is downright saintly compared to PvP trash talking.
There’s so much racism, misspelling, hate, cursing that it’s a turn off.
And then PVP players have the gall to whine about literally everything but mainly that Cyrodiil is broken and there is nothing for them to do. Meanwhile they seem to have no problem spending 24 hours in Cyrodiil boosting AP, ganking questers and hate-whispering them about it, and just engaging in literal trollish behavior.
So yeah a lot of PvE players don’t find PVP worth their time.
Funny that you said this because Pve is just as toxic.. if not more than PvP. At least in PvP people don't criticize your lack of dps in the PvP community. you're still welcome to be part of the group. if you're not pulling the amount of DPS that Alcast or Liko is pulling on a parse dummy.. you can't be a part of the core group.. which means no veteran progression for dlc trials for you.. No skin achievements until you become like Alcast. I mean.. what? I can't count how many times I've seen core pvers advertising in craglorn zone that they're selling carries for millions of gold.
Yes.. there are a lot of crappy things that go on in PvP too. I won't deny it.. both PvE and the PvP are equally ***.. but if I had to pick my poison.. I would have to go with the PvP community.. Pve is just too narcissistic for me to deal with.
Minimum DPS requirements aren't toxic though? I've been in plenty of pugs of casual PvErs wanting to try even vet Crags trials and not being able to do it because their DPS is too low - because low DPS means the fights take longer which means longer times exposed to mechanics, which means more people die and then the group wipes. If anything, expecting or demanding to be on core teams or prog groups just because you play the game is the toxic behaviour. Expecting to be carried by people who've actually put in the time and effort to improve themselves while you just turn up is toxic. Like HOW DARE anyone expect you to be fully competent in your role.
Low DPS and minimum DPS is an actual thing as the developers put in mechanics to autowipe groups if thresholds aren’t met.
- VAA: The second boss will swarm you adds. The third boss will kill everyone if enough clones aren’t killed.
- VHRC: the bottom boss will summon more and more dogs to kill the group. The full group can’t proceed without both bosses finished.
- VAS: failing to destroy the protectors or take down the other respawning bosses on higher difficulties will wipe the group
- VBanishedCells2: the final boss is impossible for low DPS to clear as eventually any tank will get overwhelmed managing daedroth
- VMOL and MGF: the second boss WILL wipe the group without enough damage
- VSS: each boss has a DPS, heal, and tank check. The group can’t clear if members of all three can’t meet minimums.
It’s not toxic to actually tell people they need a minimum DPS. Many will actually help you learn how to do a rotation and up your DPS. But if you’re in a group of 12 for a trial and your performance can’t be covered by the other members then it’s totally fair to let you go until you up your game so as not to waste everyone’s time.3 -
I'm not telling you "you're not playing the game right", why are you telling me that? Who died and left you in charge of my life?Because many players complain that some things can only be obtained for pvp.
I don't know that I understand this statement. What do you mean, "can only be obtained for PVP"? Do you mean, like, Volundrung as a furnishing, mythic sets weighted toward PVP, leads you can only get in Cyrodiil, TelVar stones, prismatic glyphs, skins or....something else?
I literally don't understand what you're talking about here, so, let me go with my guesses until you can clarify.
Yeah, sure, I'd love to have Volundrung as a furnishing...not enough to deal with the bs hassle I'd have to deal with to get it. My choice.
Mythic sets weighted towards PVP can generally be used for PVE as well, if that's something the player is interested in.
Leads or treasure maps in Cyrodiil or fishing or whatever...if I were interested in pursuing those (which I am not), I would probably go to a less populous campaign when it looks like almost nobody is there. If it got too tiresome I could get some members of my guild together to help guard against the trolls.
TelVar stones *can* be gotten by going into the Sewers, climbing to a part of the district your faction owns and going after trashmobs.
Prismatic glyphs can be bought from guild vendors. You'll pay pretty dearly for them, but...choose your poison.
But I'm not sure I actually addressed what you were saying.Many people disagree with the fact that an MMO is a large amount of diverse content that requires your attention....
...then any content is worth conquering
There's a lot to do in this game, but very little of it MUST be experienced if a player just wants to avoid it. That's not the problem to me; it's being told that I'm doing it wrong because someone else likes something else.
I don't think PVPers should have to play PVE if they don't want, and I don't think PVEers should have to PVP if they don't want. There's plenty of room for everyone.xBox NA
Anana Giacoso - CP Dark Elf Mag Sorc
Drinks-Scorpion-Venom - CP Argonian magplar healer
Officer: Reapr Crw (casual social guild)]2 -
Sililos✭✭✭Lets be real here, PvP in all games attracts the worst trash in the player base of any game.
Those who tell you to git gud after they killed you in a 10vs1 (With you as the 1) just to point out one example.
Now before you get the pitchforks, Im not saying all PvPers are trash, But you dont ever seem to see the good ones encouraging you to play, helping you get better or standing out, They are downed out by the far more dominant trash of the group.
Now, For these same reasons I cant stand dungeon running nor Raiding/Trials.
One mistake that doesn't wipe the group gets noticed and all of a sudden, every wipe is your fault. Not the guy standing in fire eating glue.Edited by Sililos on June 25, 2021 1:01AM10