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• PC/Mac: No maintenance - July 8
• PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – July 9, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
• Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – July 10, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – July 10, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
Update 43 is now available for testing on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/662078/
Dungeon Finder (please fix it)
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amm7sb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Maybe that is so... But people that want to tank would still be able to queue as tanks and learn. The dds that just want to run ahead can just do that in 4dds groups. End game tanks would still exist and that would not change.
If a new player enters the game wanting to be a tank main, and opportunities are taken away from them to learn how to be a tank, there will be less end game tanks. That's just a fact. I'm CP1800+, been playing over 5 years, and when I see in zone or even in guild chat "Random normal, LF 3 dps", I don't x up if I'm on my healer. I can do more dps than most dedicated dd's in a pug group and slot a bit of gear more dedicated to doing so, but it's off putting. I certainly wouldn't x up on one of my tanks as they can't out dps a dedicated dd. My tanks are end game tanks and carry around enough sets without trying to also be dd's because someone in guild finder needs me to fulfill their role. I can only imagine what it feels like to a new healer or tank. To make that a part of the guild finder, in my opinion, would only push more players to dd main and exacerbate the problem.
I can see your point. But seeing how little tanks already exist in game and how people dont want to heal anymore. having queues dedicated to 3dds or 4 dds would not change much and would make it simpler for people that want to play 'normal' way.
Doubt it would change anything.
The # of DD's in game compared to tanks and healers would mean there would still be a wait even for 4 DD queues, so they would still hit up the T/ H / 2 DD queue as tanks and healers to bypass it.
Nothing would really change. Except seeing 4 DD queues would probably give off the impression to newer gamers that tanks and healers are unnecessary.
Changing the queue won't solve the problem.
indeed. that is correct. this is why there needs to be a way to lock people to roles. or at least check they can do what they say they can .... .i do realize its near impossible.
No, there shouldn't be checks or locks.
If we go that route, we might as well just take away any creative freedom people have to build their own characters.
People want all these checks and requirements for roles. The game may as well just eliminate builds altogether. No more variations on roles or classes, just make character creation simple:
*Tank
*Stamina DPS
*Magicka DPS
*Healer
No more Nightblade, Dragon Knight, Necromancer, Sorcerer, etc...
Each new class comes pre-equipped with the necessary skills; I.E. Tank has "Taunt", "Resolve", "Maim", "Breach / Fracture", "Crowd Control", "Heal"
There's no more gear farming, each new class comes pre-equipped with the sets that have been deemed "meta" and needed for content. I.E. Tank has "Alkosh" and "Yolnakhriin" already pre-equipped. No farming it, and no chance to change up. They automatically have "Crusher" enchants and "Reinforced" traits.
There's no more attributes. Each class automatically has their relevant attribute pool maxed out to 64. I.E. Tank has 64 health automatically added.
There's no more Mundus. Each class gets their necessary Mundus stone automatically added.
No race selection. Tanks are now automatically a Nord, stamina DPS are now automatically an Orc, magicka DPS are now automatically a High Elf, Healers are now automatically Argonian.
This is why I can't stand "meta" in the first place, because the meta aspires to turn the game into that. And having role checks and role locks are another step in that direction.
This is the same thing I said in the other thread from like a week ago. Nobody is entitled to other people's characters or performances. You are not entitled to other people performing up to your expectations, or building their characters to your standards. I personally will never run meta sets that other people tell me to wear or should wear, I will not let another person dictate *my* character, and nobody owes me their character build to match my expectations.
The fix to the dungeon finder is simple: Pre-made groups. If you are going to join the group finder queue, you are jumping into a queue with anyone and everyone who is playing the game. And everyone has equal right to the content.
On the same way that you are not entitled to anyone's builds or performances, they are not entitled to your time. If you don't like the group dynamic, you are free to leave the group.
I say this as a tank main who gets just as frustrated as anyone by getting groups with DPS in vet DLC dungeons that can't do the amount of damage necessary, or don't know mechanics and can't be bothered to learn because all they understand is dummy parsing.
I say this as someone who also rolls DPS and healers and hates getting fake tanks that can't aggro a mob for anything, and make the runs more tedious than they need to be all because they are greedy and want to cut the line.
I say this as someone who doesn't always have the energy to explain mechanics every single time I enter a DLC dungeon.
I get just as frustrated as anyone.
But one thing I never do is feel entitled to someone else's performance. They don't owe me a knowledge of a dungeon that they may be running for the first time. They don't owe me high DPS #'s when they may still be learning their rotation. They don't owe me set combinations that they may not have been able to collect yet, or may not want for their character because those sets aren't fun for them.
If I am not in the mood to deal with any of that, I have a simple solution. I can create my own group. I can ask in my guild, I can reach out to real life friends who play, I can form my own group of people who have all that stuff already if that's what I want. And I get it, sometimes it's easier to just hit the queue than it is to start asking around in guilds. I get it, and I find myself doing that a lot as well and just PUG'ing. But that is a choice I have to make, and if I do decide on the convenience of the dungeon queue, I also have to accept that I am in a pool of literally anyone and everyone in the game. And they all have equal rights to the dungeon queue as I do. You take the good with the bad, and it is what it is.
There doesn't need to be any changes to the queue. There don't need to be set checks, or stat checks, or skill checks, or DPS pre-parses, or anything like that. There is already a solution to the issues of the dungeon finder: pre-made groups.
Either form a pre-made, or go into the dungeon queue and deal with the fact that nobody in this game owes you anything.
And most importantly remember at the end of the day, this is just a game. None of this matters. It is something done for leisure. Once people actually remember that, then this community will be so much better.
That is very much out of context mate. The problem is:
Poor with no skill or awareness dds that queue as tanks or healers. The problem are not people that know what to do.
Normal dungeons are easy - but not so much if your tank is level 1400cp dd with 10k damage and no idea what he is doing cause he spent last week online farming for cp.
People that queue for role that allows them to get in dungeon fast cause queuing as dd take to long but never actually learned the mechanics of the game.
The problem are NOT:
People that know what to do with understanding of the game or/and its mechanics. Or low level people that are learning and are willing to do so.
Normal dungeons are easy even with the fake roles. Unless it's like Moon Hunter Keep or something. But I don't see people fake tanking those.
And it's not really out of context, because the locks and checks that you are requesting - and have been requested in the past - will impact those who are learning and willing to just as much as the fakes that you are trying to punish.
You edited your post after I already commented.... I am not suggesting not allowing people to be creative... I am suggesting not letting people to queue as tank or heal if they have no idea about what to do. I am not suggesting to do it by locing them in 1 set or 1 skill or 1 weapon. This can be done in other creative ways. For example. someone who queues as tank in dungeon has all 'heavy armour' passives unlocked. This would stop low skill level people to queue as tanks and dd-s that are high enough to have these unlocked would know what to do. That would not limit people CP - cause you can be hight CP and only have 50 skill points unlocked. And in that case you would not spend them in passives you are not currently using. Its an idea - others might be better.
I'm sorry, but it's not a good one.
What if someone hasn't maxed out their heavy armor skills yet? What if they are re-building a character from one role to another, and building their character and learning the role? Or they haven't gotten all the skill points they need yet to max out their heavy armor passives? There could be a number of reasons why someone hasn't maxed out their heavy armor passives yet and are still more than capable of tanking said dungeon. This will hurt the learning tank just as much, if not more, as any fakes you are attempting to punish.
There is a better solution: Form your own group! Then you don't have to worry about it period.
Instead of criticizing think about better solution. Lets say: people that are below cp160 dont need this passives maxed out. And your agument no longer stands.
People that re-build their characters at low skill level would re-set their skills.
It is just a basis of an idea - it can be improved upon. I am not holding a gun to your head telling you and ZOS this is what will happen from now on.... I am making an suggestion. My rant was to vent my annoyence.
I did think of a better solution: Form your own group.
You are jumping through way too many hurdles because you want other people to play up to your standards.1 -
bzz86✭✭✭✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Maybe that is so... But people that want to tank would still be able to queue as tanks and learn. The dds that just want to run ahead can just do that in 4dds groups. End game tanks would still exist and that would not change.
If a new player enters the game wanting to be a tank main, and opportunities are taken away from them to learn how to be a tank, there will be less end game tanks. That's just a fact. I'm CP1800+, been playing over 5 years, and when I see in zone or even in guild chat "Random normal, LF 3 dps", I don't x up if I'm on my healer. I can do more dps than most dedicated dd's in a pug group and slot a bit of gear more dedicated to doing so, but it's off putting. I certainly wouldn't x up on one of my tanks as they can't out dps a dedicated dd. My tanks are end game tanks and carry around enough sets without trying to also be dd's because someone in guild finder needs me to fulfill their role. I can only imagine what it feels like to a new healer or tank. To make that a part of the guild finder, in my opinion, would only push more players to dd main and exacerbate the problem.
I can see your point. But seeing how little tanks already exist in game and how people dont want to heal anymore. having queues dedicated to 3dds or 4 dds would not change much and would make it simpler for people that want to play 'normal' way.
Doubt it would change anything.
The # of DD's in game compared to tanks and healers would mean there would still be a wait even for 4 DD queues, so they would still hit up the T/ H / 2 DD queue as tanks and healers to bypass it.
Nothing would really change. Except seeing 4 DD queues would probably give off the impression to newer gamers that tanks and healers are unnecessary.
Changing the queue won't solve the problem.
indeed. that is correct. this is why there needs to be a way to lock people to roles. or at least check they can do what they say they can .... .i do realize its near impossible.
No, there shouldn't be checks or locks.
If we go that route, we might as well just take away any creative freedom people have to build their own characters.
People want all these checks and requirements for roles. The game may as well just eliminate builds altogether. No more variations on roles or classes, just make character creation simple:
*Tank
*Stamina DPS
*Magicka DPS
*Healer
No more Nightblade, Dragon Knight, Necromancer, Sorcerer, etc...
Each new class comes pre-equipped with the necessary skills; I.E. Tank has "Taunt", "Resolve", "Maim", "Breach / Fracture", "Crowd Control", "Heal"
There's no more gear farming, each new class comes pre-equipped with the sets that have been deemed "meta" and needed for content. I.E. Tank has "Alkosh" and "Yolnakhriin" already pre-equipped. No farming it, and no chance to change up. They automatically have "Crusher" enchants and "Reinforced" traits.
There's no more attributes. Each class automatically has their relevant attribute pool maxed out to 64. I.E. Tank has 64 health automatically added.
There's no more Mundus. Each class gets their necessary Mundus stone automatically added.
No race selection. Tanks are now automatically a Nord, stamina DPS are now automatically an Orc, magicka DPS are now automatically a High Elf, Healers are now automatically Argonian.
This is why I can't stand "meta" in the first place, because the meta aspires to turn the game into that. And having role checks and role locks are another step in that direction.
This is the same thing I said in the other thread from like a week ago. Nobody is entitled to other people's characters or performances. You are not entitled to other people performing up to your expectations, or building their characters to your standards. I personally will never run meta sets that other people tell me to wear or should wear, I will not let another person dictate *my* character, and nobody owes me their character build to match my expectations.
The fix to the dungeon finder is simple: Pre-made groups. If you are going to join the group finder queue, you are jumping into a queue with anyone and everyone who is playing the game. And everyone has equal right to the content.
On the same way that you are not entitled to anyone's builds or performances, they are not entitled to your time. If you don't like the group dynamic, you are free to leave the group.
I say this as a tank main who gets just as frustrated as anyone by getting groups with DPS in vet DLC dungeons that can't do the amount of damage necessary, or don't know mechanics and can't be bothered to learn because all they understand is dummy parsing.
I say this as someone who also rolls DPS and healers and hates getting fake tanks that can't aggro a mob for anything, and make the runs more tedious than they need to be all because they are greedy and want to cut the line.
I say this as someone who doesn't always have the energy to explain mechanics every single time I enter a DLC dungeon.
I get just as frustrated as anyone.
But one thing I never do is feel entitled to someone else's performance. They don't owe me a knowledge of a dungeon that they may be running for the first time. They don't owe me high DPS #'s when they may still be learning their rotation. They don't owe me set combinations that they may not have been able to collect yet, or may not want for their character because those sets aren't fun for them.
If I am not in the mood to deal with any of that, I have a simple solution. I can create my own group. I can ask in my guild, I can reach out to real life friends who play, I can form my own group of people who have all that stuff already if that's what I want. And I get it, sometimes it's easier to just hit the queue than it is to start asking around in guilds. I get it, and I find myself doing that a lot as well and just PUG'ing. But that is a choice I have to make, and if I do decide on the convenience of the dungeon queue, I also have to accept that I am in a pool of literally anyone and everyone in the game. And they all have equal rights to the dungeon queue as I do. You take the good with the bad, and it is what it is.
There doesn't need to be any changes to the queue. There don't need to be set checks, or stat checks, or skill checks, or DPS pre-parses, or anything like that. There is already a solution to the issues of the dungeon finder: pre-made groups.
Either form a pre-made, or go into the dungeon queue and deal with the fact that nobody in this game owes you anything.
And most importantly remember at the end of the day, this is just a game. None of this matters. It is something done for leisure. Once people actually remember that, then this community will be so much better.
That is very much out of context mate. The problem is:
Poor with no skill or awareness dds that queue as tanks or healers. The problem are not people that know what to do.
Normal dungeons are easy - but not so much if your tank is level 1400cp dd with 10k damage and no idea what he is doing cause he spent last week online farming for cp.
People that queue for role that allows them to get in dungeon fast cause queuing as dd take to long but never actually learned the mechanics of the game.
The problem are NOT:
People that know what to do with understanding of the game or/and its mechanics. Or low level people that are learning and are willing to do so.
Normal dungeons are easy even with the fake roles. Unless it's like Moon Hunter Keep or something. But I don't see people fake tanking those.
And it's not really out of context, because the locks and checks that you are requesting - and have been requested in the past - will impact those who are learning and willing to just as much as the fakes that you are trying to punish.
You edited your post after I already commented.... I am not suggesting not allowing people to be creative... I am suggesting not letting people to queue as tank or heal if they have no idea about what to do. I am not suggesting to do it by locing them in 1 set or 1 skill or 1 weapon. This can be done in other creative ways. For example. someone who queues as tank in dungeon has all 'heavy armour' passives unlocked. This would stop low skill level people to queue as tanks and dd-s that are high enough to have these unlocked would know what to do. That would not limit people CP - cause you can be hight CP and only have 50 skill points unlocked. And in that case you would not spend them in passives you are not currently using. Its an idea - others might be better.
I'm sorry, but it's not a good one.
What if someone hasn't maxed out their heavy armor skills yet? What if they are re-building a character from one role to another, and building their character and learning the role? Or they haven't gotten all the skill points they need yet to max out their heavy armor passives? There could be a number of reasons why someone hasn't maxed out their heavy armor passives yet and are still more than capable of tanking said dungeon. This will hurt the learning tank just as much, if not more, as any fakes you are attempting to punish.
There is a better solution: Form your own group! Then you don't have to worry about it period.
Instead of criticizing think about better solution. Lets say: people that are below cp160 dont need this passives maxed out. And your agument no longer stands.
People that re-build their characters at low skill level would re-set their skills.
It is just a basis of an idea - it can be improved upon. I am not holding a gun to your head telling you and ZOS this is what will happen from now on.... I am making an suggestion. My rant was to vent my annoyence.
I did think of a better solution: Form your own group.
You are jumping through way too many hurdles because you want other people to play up to your standards.
This is not a solution. This I can do anytime, but sometimes I would like to do a random with random players. I sometimes meet interesting people this way. Also if you are now to the game or you play at particular times it can be hard to find a group.
Also - please do not call it 'my standards' cause if the game has option for a tank that is what you expect to get when you see one in your team. These are not my standards or expectations - these are game rules that people do not follow.
Again - I understand high level, skilled players - and I do not mind them - I mind low skill, cp farmers with no idea about game mechanics or the game itself.Edited by bzz86 on June 22, 2021 5:32PM0 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Maybe that is so... But people that want to tank would still be able to queue as tanks and learn. The dds that just want to run ahead can just do that in 4dds groups. End game tanks would still exist and that would not change.
If a new player enters the game wanting to be a tank main, and opportunities are taken away from them to learn how to be a tank, there will be less end game tanks. That's just a fact. I'm CP1800+, been playing over 5 years, and when I see in zone or even in guild chat "Random normal, LF 3 dps", I don't x up if I'm on my healer. I can do more dps than most dedicated dd's in a pug group and slot a bit of gear more dedicated to doing so, but it's off putting. I certainly wouldn't x up on one of my tanks as they can't out dps a dedicated dd. My tanks are end game tanks and carry around enough sets without trying to also be dd's because someone in guild finder needs me to fulfill their role. I can only imagine what it feels like to a new healer or tank. To make that a part of the guild finder, in my opinion, would only push more players to dd main and exacerbate the problem.
I can see your point. But seeing how little tanks already exist in game and how people dont want to heal anymore. having queues dedicated to 3dds or 4 dds would not change much and would make it simpler for people that want to play 'normal' way.
Doubt it would change anything.
The # of DD's in game compared to tanks and healers would mean there would still be a wait even for 4 DD queues, so they would still hit up the T/ H / 2 DD queue as tanks and healers to bypass it.
Nothing would really change. Except seeing 4 DD queues would probably give off the impression to newer gamers that tanks and healers are unnecessary.
Changing the queue won't solve the problem.
indeed. that is correct. this is why there needs to be a way to lock people to roles. or at least check they can do what they say they can .... .i do realize its near impossible.
No, there shouldn't be checks or locks.
If we go that route, we might as well just take away any creative freedom people have to build their own characters.
People want all these checks and requirements for roles. The game may as well just eliminate builds altogether. No more variations on roles or classes, just make character creation simple:
*Tank
*Stamina DPS
*Magicka DPS
*Healer
No more Nightblade, Dragon Knight, Necromancer, Sorcerer, etc...
Each new class comes pre-equipped with the necessary skills; I.E. Tank has "Taunt", "Resolve", "Maim", "Breach / Fracture", "Crowd Control", "Heal"
There's no more gear farming, each new class comes pre-equipped with the sets that have been deemed "meta" and needed for content. I.E. Tank has "Alkosh" and "Yolnakhriin" already pre-equipped. No farming it, and no chance to change up. They automatically have "Crusher" enchants and "Reinforced" traits.
There's no more attributes. Each class automatically has their relevant attribute pool maxed out to 64. I.E. Tank has 64 health automatically added.
There's no more Mundus. Each class gets their necessary Mundus stone automatically added.
No race selection. Tanks are now automatically a Nord, stamina DPS are now automatically an Orc, magicka DPS are now automatically a High Elf, Healers are now automatically Argonian.
This is why I can't stand "meta" in the first place, because the meta aspires to turn the game into that. And having role checks and role locks are another step in that direction.
This is the same thing I said in the other thread from like a week ago. Nobody is entitled to other people's characters or performances. You are not entitled to other people performing up to your expectations, or building their characters to your standards. I personally will never run meta sets that other people tell me to wear or should wear, I will not let another person dictate *my* character, and nobody owes me their character build to match my expectations.
The fix to the dungeon finder is simple: Pre-made groups. If you are going to join the group finder queue, you are jumping into a queue with anyone and everyone who is playing the game. And everyone has equal right to the content.
On the same way that you are not entitled to anyone's builds or performances, they are not entitled to your time. If you don't like the group dynamic, you are free to leave the group.
I say this as a tank main who gets just as frustrated as anyone by getting groups with DPS in vet DLC dungeons that can't do the amount of damage necessary, or don't know mechanics and can't be bothered to learn because all they understand is dummy parsing.
I say this as someone who also rolls DPS and healers and hates getting fake tanks that can't aggro a mob for anything, and make the runs more tedious than they need to be all because they are greedy and want to cut the line.
I say this as someone who doesn't always have the energy to explain mechanics every single time I enter a DLC dungeon.
I get just as frustrated as anyone.
But one thing I never do is feel entitled to someone else's performance. They don't owe me a knowledge of a dungeon that they may be running for the first time. They don't owe me high DPS #'s when they may still be learning their rotation. They don't owe me set combinations that they may not have been able to collect yet, or may not want for their character because those sets aren't fun for them.
If I am not in the mood to deal with any of that, I have a simple solution. I can create my own group. I can ask in my guild, I can reach out to real life friends who play, I can form my own group of people who have all that stuff already if that's what I want. And I get it, sometimes it's easier to just hit the queue than it is to start asking around in guilds. I get it, and I find myself doing that a lot as well and just PUG'ing. But that is a choice I have to make, and if I do decide on the convenience of the dungeon queue, I also have to accept that I am in a pool of literally anyone and everyone in the game. And they all have equal rights to the dungeon queue as I do. You take the good with the bad, and it is what it is.
There doesn't need to be any changes to the queue. There don't need to be set checks, or stat checks, or skill checks, or DPS pre-parses, or anything like that. There is already a solution to the issues of the dungeon finder: pre-made groups.
Either form a pre-made, or go into the dungeon queue and deal with the fact that nobody in this game owes you anything.
And most importantly remember at the end of the day, this is just a game. None of this matters. It is something done for leisure. Once people actually remember that, then this community will be so much better.
That is very much out of context mate. The problem is:
Poor with no skill or awareness dds that queue as tanks or healers. The problem are not people that know what to do.
Normal dungeons are easy - but not so much if your tank is level 1400cp dd with 10k damage and no idea what he is doing cause he spent last week online farming for cp.
People that queue for role that allows them to get in dungeon fast cause queuing as dd take to long but never actually learned the mechanics of the game.
The problem are NOT:
People that know what to do with understanding of the game or/and its mechanics. Or low level people that are learning and are willing to do so.
Normal dungeons are easy even with the fake roles. Unless it's like Moon Hunter Keep or something. But I don't see people fake tanking those.
And it's not really out of context, because the locks and checks that you are requesting - and have been requested in the past - will impact those who are learning and willing to just as much as the fakes that you are trying to punish.
You edited your post after I already commented.... I am not suggesting not allowing people to be creative... I am suggesting not letting people to queue as tank or heal if they have no idea about what to do. I am not suggesting to do it by locing them in 1 set or 1 skill or 1 weapon. This can be done in other creative ways. For example. someone who queues as tank in dungeon has all 'heavy armour' passives unlocked. This would stop low skill level people to queue as tanks and dd-s that are high enough to have these unlocked would know what to do. That would not limit people CP - cause you can be hight CP and only have 50 skill points unlocked. And in that case you would not spend them in passives you are not currently using. Its an idea - others might be better.
I'm sorry, but it's not a good one.
What if someone hasn't maxed out their heavy armor skills yet? What if they are re-building a character from one role to another, and building their character and learning the role? Or they haven't gotten all the skill points they need yet to max out their heavy armor passives? There could be a number of reasons why someone hasn't maxed out their heavy armor passives yet and are still more than capable of tanking said dungeon. This will hurt the learning tank just as much, if not more, as any fakes you are attempting to punish.
There is a better solution: Form your own group! Then you don't have to worry about it period.
Instead of criticizing think about better solution. Lets say: people that are below cp160 dont need this passives maxed out. And your agument no longer stands.
People that re-build their characters at low skill level would re-set their skills.
It is just a basis of an idea - it can be improved upon. I am not holding a gun to your head telling you and ZOS this is what will happen from now on.... I am making an suggestion. My rant was to vent my annoyence.
I did think of a better solution: Form your own group.
You are jumping through way too many hurdles because you want other people to play up to your standards.
This is not a solution. This I can do anytime, but sometimes I would like to do a random with random players. I sometimes meet interesting people this way. Also if you are now to the game or you play at particular times it can be hard to find a group.
Also - please do not call it 'my standards' cause if the game has option for a tank that is what you expect to get when you see one in your team. These are not my standards or expectations - these are game rules that people do not follow.
Again - I understand high level, skilled players - and I do not mind them - I mind low skill, cp farmers with no idea about game mechanics or the game itself.
They are your standards. Ive seen, as in personally witnessed, a tank without maxed Heavy Armor or SnB get dungeon trifectas in vet DLCs.
People that reset their characters to play a different role do not have their skills lines maxed out automatically. In the past it was customary for DDs (magicka anyway) to wear 5/1/1. That changed in CP2.0 and most dont level it passively anymore.
The number one way to avoid fake tanks...be a tank. You dont need to form your own groups to get a real tank. Its instant queues. Whats not to love?
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amm7sb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Maybe that is so... But people that want to tank would still be able to queue as tanks and learn. The dds that just want to run ahead can just do that in 4dds groups. End game tanks would still exist and that would not change.
If a new player enters the game wanting to be a tank main, and opportunities are taken away from them to learn how to be a tank, there will be less end game tanks. That's just a fact. I'm CP1800+, been playing over 5 years, and when I see in zone or even in guild chat "Random normal, LF 3 dps", I don't x up if I'm on my healer. I can do more dps than most dedicated dd's in a pug group and slot a bit of gear more dedicated to doing so, but it's off putting. I certainly wouldn't x up on one of my tanks as they can't out dps a dedicated dd. My tanks are end game tanks and carry around enough sets without trying to also be dd's because someone in guild finder needs me to fulfill their role. I can only imagine what it feels like to a new healer or tank. To make that a part of the guild finder, in my opinion, would only push more players to dd main and exacerbate the problem.
I can see your point. But seeing how little tanks already exist in game and how people dont want to heal anymore. having queues dedicated to 3dds or 4 dds would not change much and would make it simpler for people that want to play 'normal' way.
Doubt it would change anything.
The # of DD's in game compared to tanks and healers would mean there would still be a wait even for 4 DD queues, so they would still hit up the T/ H / 2 DD queue as tanks and healers to bypass it.
Nothing would really change. Except seeing 4 DD queues would probably give off the impression to newer gamers that tanks and healers are unnecessary.
Changing the queue won't solve the problem.
indeed. that is correct. this is why there needs to be a way to lock people to roles. or at least check they can do what they say they can .... .i do realize its near impossible.
No, there shouldn't be checks or locks.
If we go that route, we might as well just take away any creative freedom people have to build their own characters.
People want all these checks and requirements for roles. The game may as well just eliminate builds altogether. No more variations on roles or classes, just make character creation simple:
*Tank
*Stamina DPS
*Magicka DPS
*Healer
No more Nightblade, Dragon Knight, Necromancer, Sorcerer, etc...
Each new class comes pre-equipped with the necessary skills; I.E. Tank has "Taunt", "Resolve", "Maim", "Breach / Fracture", "Crowd Control", "Heal"
There's no more gear farming, each new class comes pre-equipped with the sets that have been deemed "meta" and needed for content. I.E. Tank has "Alkosh" and "Yolnakhriin" already pre-equipped. No farming it, and no chance to change up. They automatically have "Crusher" enchants and "Reinforced" traits.
There's no more attributes. Each class automatically has their relevant attribute pool maxed out to 64. I.E. Tank has 64 health automatically added.
There's no more Mundus. Each class gets their necessary Mundus stone automatically added.
No race selection. Tanks are now automatically a Nord, stamina DPS are now automatically an Orc, magicka DPS are now automatically a High Elf, Healers are now automatically Argonian.
This is why I can't stand "meta" in the first place, because the meta aspires to turn the game into that. And having role checks and role locks are another step in that direction.
This is the same thing I said in the other thread from like a week ago. Nobody is entitled to other people's characters or performances. You are not entitled to other people performing up to your expectations, or building their characters to your standards. I personally will never run meta sets that other people tell me to wear or should wear, I will not let another person dictate *my* character, and nobody owes me their character build to match my expectations.
The fix to the dungeon finder is simple: Pre-made groups. If you are going to join the group finder queue, you are jumping into a queue with anyone and everyone who is playing the game. And everyone has equal right to the content.
On the same way that you are not entitled to anyone's builds or performances, they are not entitled to your time. If you don't like the group dynamic, you are free to leave the group.
I say this as a tank main who gets just as frustrated as anyone by getting groups with DPS in vet DLC dungeons that can't do the amount of damage necessary, or don't know mechanics and can't be bothered to learn because all they understand is dummy parsing.
I say this as someone who also rolls DPS and healers and hates getting fake tanks that can't aggro a mob for anything, and make the runs more tedious than they need to be all because they are greedy and want to cut the line.
I say this as someone who doesn't always have the energy to explain mechanics every single time I enter a DLC dungeon.
I get just as frustrated as anyone.
But one thing I never do is feel entitled to someone else's performance. They don't owe me a knowledge of a dungeon that they may be running for the first time. They don't owe me high DPS #'s when they may still be learning their rotation. They don't owe me set combinations that they may not have been able to collect yet, or may not want for their character because those sets aren't fun for them.
If I am not in the mood to deal with any of that, I have a simple solution. I can create my own group. I can ask in my guild, I can reach out to real life friends who play, I can form my own group of people who have all that stuff already if that's what I want. And I get it, sometimes it's easier to just hit the queue than it is to start asking around in guilds. I get it, and I find myself doing that a lot as well and just PUG'ing. But that is a choice I have to make, and if I do decide on the convenience of the dungeon queue, I also have to accept that I am in a pool of literally anyone and everyone in the game. And they all have equal rights to the dungeon queue as I do. You take the good with the bad, and it is what it is.
There doesn't need to be any changes to the queue. There don't need to be set checks, or stat checks, or skill checks, or DPS pre-parses, or anything like that. There is already a solution to the issues of the dungeon finder: pre-made groups.
Either form a pre-made, or go into the dungeon queue and deal with the fact that nobody in this game owes you anything.
And most importantly remember at the end of the day, this is just a game. None of this matters. It is something done for leisure. Once people actually remember that, then this community will be so much better.
That is very much out of context mate. The problem is:
Poor with no skill or awareness dds that queue as tanks or healers. The problem are not people that know what to do.
Normal dungeons are easy - but not so much if your tank is level 1400cp dd with 10k damage and no idea what he is doing cause he spent last week online farming for cp.
People that queue for role that allows them to get in dungeon fast cause queuing as dd take to long but never actually learned the mechanics of the game.
The problem are NOT:
People that know what to do with understanding of the game or/and its mechanics. Or low level people that are learning and are willing to do so.
Normal dungeons are easy even with the fake roles. Unless it's like Moon Hunter Keep or something. But I don't see people fake tanking those.
And it's not really out of context, because the locks and checks that you are requesting - and have been requested in the past - will impact those who are learning and willing to just as much as the fakes that you are trying to punish.
You edited your post after I already commented.... I am not suggesting not allowing people to be creative... I am suggesting not letting people to queue as tank or heal if they have no idea about what to do. I am not suggesting to do it by locing them in 1 set or 1 skill or 1 weapon. This can be done in other creative ways. For example. someone who queues as tank in dungeon has all 'heavy armour' passives unlocked. This would stop low skill level people to queue as tanks and dd-s that are high enough to have these unlocked would know what to do. That would not limit people CP - cause you can be hight CP and only have 50 skill points unlocked. And in that case you would not spend them in passives you are not currently using. Its an idea - others might be better.
I'm sorry, but it's not a good one.
What if someone hasn't maxed out their heavy armor skills yet? What if they are re-building a character from one role to another, and building their character and learning the role? Or they haven't gotten all the skill points they need yet to max out their heavy armor passives? There could be a number of reasons why someone hasn't maxed out their heavy armor passives yet and are still more than capable of tanking said dungeon. This will hurt the learning tank just as much, if not more, as any fakes you are attempting to punish.
There is a better solution: Form your own group! Then you don't have to worry about it period.
Instead of criticizing think about better solution. Lets say: people that are below cp160 dont need this passives maxed out. And your agument no longer stands.
People that re-build their characters at low skill level would re-set their skills.
It is just a basis of an idea - it can be improved upon. I am not holding a gun to your head telling you and ZOS this is what will happen from now on.... I am making an suggestion. My rant was to vent my annoyence.
I did think of a better solution: Form your own group.
You are jumping through way too many hurdles because you want other people to play up to your standards.
This is not a solution. This I can do anytime, but sometimes I would like to do a random with random players. I sometimes meet interesting people this way. Also if you are now to the game or you play at particular times it can be hard to find a group.
Also - please do not call it 'my standards' cause if the game has option for a tank that is what you expect to get when you see one in your team. These are not my standards or expectations - these are game rules that people do not follow.
Again - I understand high level, skilled players - and I do not mind them - I mind low skill, cp farmers with no idea about game mechanics or the game itself.
It absolutely *is* your standards, because you are the one trying to state the expectations of what makes a tank.
FYI - I am an end-game, trial leading guild tank. My tank would not be the "standards" of what most people expect from an end-game trial tank. I do no use meta sets, I do not use the "proper" races, I don't always use the "proper" weapon (i.e.: no destro staff back bar), and I don't even always have all of the expected skills on my bars.
I still get the job done and don't get any complaints about my tanking, in dungeons or trials, and I tank rather successfully.
There is not one standard that makes the roles successful, therefore, checks and locks on the dungeon finder literally cannot be properly implemented because someone may be able to successfully tank without following the standards that you are trying to outline.
Also, you say "this is not a solution" and then follow it up with "I can do this anytime"
That's the point. You can form a pre-made group anytime. Hypothetically, you *never* even have to use the dungeon finder. That is literally a solution.
But you say you *choose* to use the dungeon finder. That means you are actively making a choice - you are making a choice to *not* use the solutions you have available to you, and *choosing* to put yourself in a pool of literally anyone and everyone in the game.
This is a personal choice, and as such, is a non-issue.Edited by amm7sb14_ESO on June 22, 2021 5:51PM0 -
bzz86✭✭✭✭Agenericname wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Maybe that is so... But people that want to tank would still be able to queue as tanks and learn. The dds that just want to run ahead can just do that in 4dds groups. End game tanks would still exist and that would not change.
If a new player enters the game wanting to be a tank main, and opportunities are taken away from them to learn how to be a tank, there will be less end game tanks. That's just a fact. I'm CP1800+, been playing over 5 years, and when I see in zone or even in guild chat "Random normal, LF 3 dps", I don't x up if I'm on my healer. I can do more dps than most dedicated dd's in a pug group and slot a bit of gear more dedicated to doing so, but it's off putting. I certainly wouldn't x up on one of my tanks as they can't out dps a dedicated dd. My tanks are end game tanks and carry around enough sets without trying to also be dd's because someone in guild finder needs me to fulfill their role. I can only imagine what it feels like to a new healer or tank. To make that a part of the guild finder, in my opinion, would only push more players to dd main and exacerbate the problem.
I can see your point. But seeing how little tanks already exist in game and how people dont want to heal anymore. having queues dedicated to 3dds or 4 dds would not change much and would make it simpler for people that want to play 'normal' way.
Doubt it would change anything.
The # of DD's in game compared to tanks and healers would mean there would still be a wait even for 4 DD queues, so they would still hit up the T/ H / 2 DD queue as tanks and healers to bypass it.
Nothing would really change. Except seeing 4 DD queues would probably give off the impression to newer gamers that tanks and healers are unnecessary.
Changing the queue won't solve the problem.
indeed. that is correct. this is why there needs to be a way to lock people to roles. or at least check they can do what they say they can .... .i do realize its near impossible.
No, there shouldn't be checks or locks.
If we go that route, we might as well just take away any creative freedom people have to build their own characters.
People want all these checks and requirements for roles. The game may as well just eliminate builds altogether. No more variations on roles or classes, just make character creation simple:
*Tank
*Stamina DPS
*Magicka DPS
*Healer
No more Nightblade, Dragon Knight, Necromancer, Sorcerer, etc...
Each new class comes pre-equipped with the necessary skills; I.E. Tank has "Taunt", "Resolve", "Maim", "Breach / Fracture", "Crowd Control", "Heal"
There's no more gear farming, each new class comes pre-equipped with the sets that have been deemed "meta" and needed for content. I.E. Tank has "Alkosh" and "Yolnakhriin" already pre-equipped. No farming it, and no chance to change up. They automatically have "Crusher" enchants and "Reinforced" traits.
There's no more attributes. Each class automatically has their relevant attribute pool maxed out to 64. I.E. Tank has 64 health automatically added.
There's no more Mundus. Each class gets their necessary Mundus stone automatically added.
No race selection. Tanks are now automatically a Nord, stamina DPS are now automatically an Orc, magicka DPS are now automatically a High Elf, Healers are now automatically Argonian.
This is why I can't stand "meta" in the first place, because the meta aspires to turn the game into that. And having role checks and role locks are another step in that direction.
This is the same thing I said in the other thread from like a week ago. Nobody is entitled to other people's characters or performances. You are not entitled to other people performing up to your expectations, or building their characters to your standards. I personally will never run meta sets that other people tell me to wear or should wear, I will not let another person dictate *my* character, and nobody owes me their character build to match my expectations.
The fix to the dungeon finder is simple: Pre-made groups. If you are going to join the group finder queue, you are jumping into a queue with anyone and everyone who is playing the game. And everyone has equal right to the content.
On the same way that you are not entitled to anyone's builds or performances, they are not entitled to your time. If you don't like the group dynamic, you are free to leave the group.
I say this as a tank main who gets just as frustrated as anyone by getting groups with DPS in vet DLC dungeons that can't do the amount of damage necessary, or don't know mechanics and can't be bothered to learn because all they understand is dummy parsing.
I say this as someone who also rolls DPS and healers and hates getting fake tanks that can't aggro a mob for anything, and make the runs more tedious than they need to be all because they are greedy and want to cut the line.
I say this as someone who doesn't always have the energy to explain mechanics every single time I enter a DLC dungeon.
I get just as frustrated as anyone.
But one thing I never do is feel entitled to someone else's performance. They don't owe me a knowledge of a dungeon that they may be running for the first time. They don't owe me high DPS #'s when they may still be learning their rotation. They don't owe me set combinations that they may not have been able to collect yet, or may not want for their character because those sets aren't fun for them.
If I am not in the mood to deal with any of that, I have a simple solution. I can create my own group. I can ask in my guild, I can reach out to real life friends who play, I can form my own group of people who have all that stuff already if that's what I want. And I get it, sometimes it's easier to just hit the queue than it is to start asking around in guilds. I get it, and I find myself doing that a lot as well and just PUG'ing. But that is a choice I have to make, and if I do decide on the convenience of the dungeon queue, I also have to accept that I am in a pool of literally anyone and everyone in the game. And they all have equal rights to the dungeon queue as I do. You take the good with the bad, and it is what it is.
There doesn't need to be any changes to the queue. There don't need to be set checks, or stat checks, or skill checks, or DPS pre-parses, or anything like that. There is already a solution to the issues of the dungeon finder: pre-made groups.
Either form a pre-made, or go into the dungeon queue and deal with the fact that nobody in this game owes you anything.
And most importantly remember at the end of the day, this is just a game. None of this matters. It is something done for leisure. Once people actually remember that, then this community will be so much better.
That is very much out of context mate. The problem is:
Poor with no skill or awareness dds that queue as tanks or healers. The problem are not people that know what to do.
Normal dungeons are easy - but not so much if your tank is level 1400cp dd with 10k damage and no idea what he is doing cause he spent last week online farming for cp.
People that queue for role that allows them to get in dungeon fast cause queuing as dd take to long but never actually learned the mechanics of the game.
The problem are NOT:
People that know what to do with understanding of the game or/and its mechanics. Or low level people that are learning and are willing to do so.
Normal dungeons are easy even with the fake roles. Unless it's like Moon Hunter Keep or something. But I don't see people fake tanking those.
And it's not really out of context, because the locks and checks that you are requesting - and have been requested in the past - will impact those who are learning and willing to just as much as the fakes that you are trying to punish.
You edited your post after I already commented.... I am not suggesting not allowing people to be creative... I am suggesting not letting people to queue as tank or heal if they have no idea about what to do. I am not suggesting to do it by locing them in 1 set or 1 skill or 1 weapon. This can be done in other creative ways. For example. someone who queues as tank in dungeon has all 'heavy armour' passives unlocked. This would stop low skill level people to queue as tanks and dd-s that are high enough to have these unlocked would know what to do. That would not limit people CP - cause you can be hight CP and only have 50 skill points unlocked. And in that case you would not spend them in passives you are not currently using. Its an idea - others might be better.
I'm sorry, but it's not a good one.
What if someone hasn't maxed out their heavy armor skills yet? What if they are re-building a character from one role to another, and building their character and learning the role? Or they haven't gotten all the skill points they need yet to max out their heavy armor passives? There could be a number of reasons why someone hasn't maxed out their heavy armor passives yet and are still more than capable of tanking said dungeon. This will hurt the learning tank just as much, if not more, as any fakes you are attempting to punish.
There is a better solution: Form your own group! Then you don't have to worry about it period.
Instead of criticizing think about better solution. Lets say: people that are below cp160 dont need this passives maxed out. And your agument no longer stands.
People that re-build their characters at low skill level would re-set their skills.
It is just a basis of an idea - it can be improved upon. I am not holding a gun to your head telling you and ZOS this is what will happen from now on.... I am making an suggestion. My rant was to vent my annoyence.
I did think of a better solution: Form your own group.
You are jumping through way too many hurdles because you want other people to play up to your standards.
This is not a solution. This I can do anytime, but sometimes I would like to do a random with random players. I sometimes meet interesting people this way. Also if you are now to the game or you play at particular times it can be hard to find a group.
Also - please do not call it 'my standards' cause if the game has option for a tank that is what you expect to get when you see one in your team. These are not my standards or expectations - these are game rules that people do not follow.
Again - I understand high level, skilled players - and I do not mind them - I mind low skill, cp farmers with no idea about game mechanics or the game itself.
They are your standards. Ive seen, as in personally witnessed, a tank without maxed Heavy Armor or SnB get dungeon trifectas in vet DLCs.
People that reset their characters to play a different role do not have their skills lines maxed out automatically. In the past it was customary for DDs (magicka anyway) to wear 5/1/1. That changed in CP2.0 and most dont level it passively anymore.
The number one way to avoid fake tanks...be a tank. You dont need to form your own groups to get a real tank. Its instant queues. Whats not to love?amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Maybe that is so... But people that want to tank would still be able to queue as tanks and learn. The dds that just want to run ahead can just do that in 4dds groups. End game tanks would still exist and that would not change.
If a new player enters the game wanting to be a tank main, and opportunities are taken away from them to learn how to be a tank, there will be less end game tanks. That's just a fact. I'm CP1800+, been playing over 5 years, and when I see in zone or even in guild chat "Random normal, LF 3 dps", I don't x up if I'm on my healer. I can do more dps than most dedicated dd's in a pug group and slot a bit of gear more dedicated to doing so, but it's off putting. I certainly wouldn't x up on one of my tanks as they can't out dps a dedicated dd. My tanks are end game tanks and carry around enough sets without trying to also be dd's because someone in guild finder needs me to fulfill their role. I can only imagine what it feels like to a new healer or tank. To make that a part of the guild finder, in my opinion, would only push more players to dd main and exacerbate the problem.
I can see your point. But seeing how little tanks already exist in game and how people dont want to heal anymore. having queues dedicated to 3dds or 4 dds would not change much and would make it simpler for people that want to play 'normal' way.
Doubt it would change anything.
The # of DD's in game compared to tanks and healers would mean there would still be a wait even for 4 DD queues, so they would still hit up the T/ H / 2 DD queue as tanks and healers to bypass it.
Nothing would really change. Except seeing 4 DD queues would probably give off the impression to newer gamers that tanks and healers are unnecessary.
Changing the queue won't solve the problem.
indeed. that is correct. this is why there needs to be a way to lock people to roles. or at least check they can do what they say they can .... .i do realize its near impossible.
No, there shouldn't be checks or locks.
If we go that route, we might as well just take away any creative freedom people have to build their own characters.
People want all these checks and requirements for roles. The game may as well just eliminate builds altogether. No more variations on roles or classes, just make character creation simple:
*Tank
*Stamina DPS
*Magicka DPS
*Healer
No more Nightblade, Dragon Knight, Necromancer, Sorcerer, etc...
Each new class comes pre-equipped with the necessary skills; I.E. Tank has "Taunt", "Resolve", "Maim", "Breach / Fracture", "Crowd Control", "Heal"
There's no more gear farming, each new class comes pre-equipped with the sets that have been deemed "meta" and needed for content. I.E. Tank has "Alkosh" and "Yolnakhriin" already pre-equipped. No farming it, and no chance to change up. They automatically have "Crusher" enchants and "Reinforced" traits.
There's no more attributes. Each class automatically has their relevant attribute pool maxed out to 64. I.E. Tank has 64 health automatically added.
There's no more Mundus. Each class gets their necessary Mundus stone automatically added.
No race selection. Tanks are now automatically a Nord, stamina DPS are now automatically an Orc, magicka DPS are now automatically a High Elf, Healers are now automatically Argonian.
This is why I can't stand "meta" in the first place, because the meta aspires to turn the game into that. And having role checks and role locks are another step in that direction.
This is the same thing I said in the other thread from like a week ago. Nobody is entitled to other people's characters or performances. You are not entitled to other people performing up to your expectations, or building their characters to your standards. I personally will never run meta sets that other people tell me to wear or should wear, I will not let another person dictate *my* character, and nobody owes me their character build to match my expectations.
The fix to the dungeon finder is simple: Pre-made groups. If you are going to join the group finder queue, you are jumping into a queue with anyone and everyone who is playing the game. And everyone has equal right to the content.
On the same way that you are not entitled to anyone's builds or performances, they are not entitled to your time. If you don't like the group dynamic, you are free to leave the group.
I say this as a tank main who gets just as frustrated as anyone by getting groups with DPS in vet DLC dungeons that can't do the amount of damage necessary, or don't know mechanics and can't be bothered to learn because all they understand is dummy parsing.
I say this as someone who also rolls DPS and healers and hates getting fake tanks that can't aggro a mob for anything, and make the runs more tedious than they need to be all because they are greedy and want to cut the line.
I say this as someone who doesn't always have the energy to explain mechanics every single time I enter a DLC dungeon.
I get just as frustrated as anyone.
But one thing I never do is feel entitled to someone else's performance. They don't owe me a knowledge of a dungeon that they may be running for the first time. They don't owe me high DPS #'s when they may still be learning their rotation. They don't owe me set combinations that they may not have been able to collect yet, or may not want for their character because those sets aren't fun for them.
If I am not in the mood to deal with any of that, I have a simple solution. I can create my own group. I can ask in my guild, I can reach out to real life friends who play, I can form my own group of people who have all that stuff already if that's what I want. And I get it, sometimes it's easier to just hit the queue than it is to start asking around in guilds. I get it, and I find myself doing that a lot as well and just PUG'ing. But that is a choice I have to make, and if I do decide on the convenience of the dungeon queue, I also have to accept that I am in a pool of literally anyone and everyone in the game. And they all have equal rights to the dungeon queue as I do. You take the good with the bad, and it is what it is.
There doesn't need to be any changes to the queue. There don't need to be set checks, or stat checks, or skill checks, or DPS pre-parses, or anything like that. There is already a solution to the issues of the dungeon finder: pre-made groups.
Either form a pre-made, or go into the dungeon queue and deal with the fact that nobody in this game owes you anything.
And most importantly remember at the end of the day, this is just a game. None of this matters. It is something done for leisure. Once people actually remember that, then this community will be so much better.
That is very much out of context mate. The problem is:
Poor with no skill or awareness dds that queue as tanks or healers. The problem are not people that know what to do.
Normal dungeons are easy - but not so much if your tank is level 1400cp dd with 10k damage and no idea what he is doing cause he spent last week online farming for cp.
People that queue for role that allows them to get in dungeon fast cause queuing as dd take to long but never actually learned the mechanics of the game.
The problem are NOT:
People that know what to do with understanding of the game or/and its mechanics. Or low level people that are learning and are willing to do so.
Normal dungeons are easy even with the fake roles. Unless it's like Moon Hunter Keep or something. But I don't see people fake tanking those.
And it's not really out of context, because the locks and checks that you are requesting - and have been requested in the past - will impact those who are learning and willing to just as much as the fakes that you are trying to punish.
You edited your post after I already commented.... I am not suggesting not allowing people to be creative... I am suggesting not letting people to queue as tank or heal if they have no idea about what to do. I am not suggesting to do it by locing them in 1 set or 1 skill or 1 weapon. This can be done in other creative ways. For example. someone who queues as tank in dungeon has all 'heavy armour' passives unlocked. This would stop low skill level people to queue as tanks and dd-s that are high enough to have these unlocked would know what to do. That would not limit people CP - cause you can be hight CP and only have 50 skill points unlocked. And in that case you would not spend them in passives you are not currently using. Its an idea - others might be better.
I'm sorry, but it's not a good one.
What if someone hasn't maxed out their heavy armor skills yet? What if they are re-building a character from one role to another, and building their character and learning the role? Or they haven't gotten all the skill points they need yet to max out their heavy armor passives? There could be a number of reasons why someone hasn't maxed out their heavy armor passives yet and are still more than capable of tanking said dungeon. This will hurt the learning tank just as much, if not more, as any fakes you are attempting to punish.
There is a better solution: Form your own group! Then you don't have to worry about it period.
Instead of criticizing think about better solution. Lets say: people that are below cp160 dont need this passives maxed out. And your agument no longer stands.
People that re-build their characters at low skill level would re-set their skills.
It is just a basis of an idea - it can be improved upon. I am not holding a gun to your head telling you and ZOS this is what will happen from now on.... I am making an suggestion. My rant was to vent my annoyence.
I did think of a better solution: Form your own group.
You are jumping through way too many hurdles because you want other people to play up to your standards.
This is not a solution. This I can do anytime, but sometimes I would like to do a random with random players. I sometimes meet interesting people this way. Also if you are now to the game or you play at particular times it can be hard to find a group.
Also - please do not call it 'my standards' cause if the game has option for a tank that is what you expect to get when you see one in your team. These are not my standards or expectations - these are game rules that people do not follow.
Again - I understand high level, skilled players - and I do not mind them - I mind low skill, cp farmers with no idea about game mechanics or the game itself.
It absolutely *is* your standards, because you are the one trying to state the expectations of what makes a tank.
FYI - I am an end-game, trial leading guild tank. My tank would not be the "standards" of what most people expect from an end-game trial tank. I do no use meta sets, I do not use the "proper" races, I don't always use the "proper" weapon (i.e.: no destro staff back bar), and I don't even always have all of the expected skills on my bars.
I still get the job done and don't get any complaints about my tanking, in dungeons or trials, and I tank rather successfully.
There is not one standard that makes the roles successful, therefore, checks and locks on the dungeon finder literally cannot be properly implemented because someone may be able to successfully tank without following the standards that you are trying to outline.
Also, you say "this is not a solution" and then follow it up with "I can do this anytime"
That's the point. You can form a pre-made group anytime. Hypothetically, you *never* even have to use the dungeon finder. That is literally a solution.
But you say you *choose* to use the dungeon finder. That means you are actively making a choice - you are making a choice to *not* use the solutions you have available to you, and *choosing* to put yourself in a pool of literally anyone and everyone in the game.
This is a personal choice, and as such, is a non-issue.
I believe I can see your point of view that is cause I can see how you don't understand my point. But I have no expected any less from the forum.
I am not here to set any standards even if I agree these are mine. I am here to point out that ESO system that is meant to give groups a tank does not do that. Instead we get poor players looking for quick exp with no interest, involvement, skill or team play.
I 'choose' to use the finder cause the game gives me reward for using it. Not only in case of gold and exp but also allows me to meet people.
I do have a tank - and if you read my first comment please - you will see what I mean.
I am not criticizing any of you personally just the 'broken' system. I am an end game healer - despite being a lot more casual these days then few years ago. I understand.
This 'is' an 'issue' as many, many players for very long now raise this as a challenge and problem. Just search the forum a little.
Edit: And please dont use 'Also, you say "this is not a solution" and then follow it up with "I can do this anytime"' as example cause there are many things I can do anytime but I dont out of decency ;-) JKEdited by bzz86 on June 22, 2021 6:20PM0 -
svendf✭✭✭✭I hear you OP your story isn´t the only one. Some of my freinds have stopped running random because of issues. Many guildies have other things to do and when it come to random normal or vet, there isn´t realy any reason to ask in guild, because it shouldn´t be an issue using group finde, but it is.
In guild we help guildmembers with the hard stuff other things should be fine to use group finder, but it isn´t. My three tanks, healers and dds have been banned by me from randoms, simply because im tired of, what is going on.
I have as some of my friends found other things to do in ESO, which have givven us more enjoyment and quality - random dungeons isn´t importent anymore.
There will be no return to dungeons until we can be 100% sure of no fakes and griefers. As I see it - by staying out of dungeons and not using group finder you will not help them. There are more to ESO than dungeons, group finder and randoms1 -
Starlight_Whisper✭✭✭✭✭
✭I have four tanks, and when I come as tank I want to tank. When a dd runs ahead and aggros, even if they're capable of staying alive, it's disrepectful and often creates chaos that's unnecessary. When a tank is able to do their job and dps is low or mechanics aren't known, the tank is often put into the role of becoming the teacher. Most players do, in fact, choose dd as a way to play, and many of those are ignorant as to what a tank or healer can provide resulting in a common misunderstanding that support roles aren't valuable. I'd argue even if it's for FG1, if it's a pug, a tank has to be able to learn to tank so they can feel comfortable moving onto vet DLC trials and dungeons. Options like 3dd/1h or 4dd will just result in less end game tanks.
Maybe that is so... But people that want to tank would still be able to queue as tanks and learn. The dds that just want to run ahead can just do that in 4dds groups. End game tanks would still exist and that would not change.
Should be consequences of lacking a tank.0 -
bzz86✭✭✭✭Starlight_Whisper wrote: »I have four tanks, and when I come as tank I want to tank. When a dd runs ahead and aggros, even if they're capable of staying alive, it's disrepectful and often creates chaos that's unnecessary. When a tank is able to do their job and dps is low or mechanics aren't known, the tank is often put into the role of becoming the teacher. Most players do, in fact, choose dd as a way to play, and many of those are ignorant as to what a tank or healer can provide resulting in a common misunderstanding that support roles aren't valuable. I'd argue even if it's for FG1, if it's a pug, a tank has to be able to learn to tank so they can feel comfortable moving onto vet DLC trials and dungeons. Options like 3dd/1h or 4dd will just result in less end game tanks.
Maybe that is so... But people that want to tank would still be able to queue as tanks and learn. The dds that just want to run ahead can just do that in 4dds groups. End game tanks would still exist and that would not change.
Should be consequences of lacking a tank.
That might be. The system is broken and it will take long time (if ever) to fix. I still think that if people want to run 4 dd groups they should be allowed, and people that want to run the 'original' way should do that as well. But yes - I guess that that might discourage some people from tanking. At this moment in time I do not know what is the solution to that.0 -
Fennwitty✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Make an alternative source for Transmute Crystals and the problem largely resolves itself.
There's no 'need' to fill tank slots if there's not a mountain of DD players (the majority) who only queue for random normals to get the crystals.
Anyone who legitimately wants to do a random dungeon would be there to do a dungeon. Not there just to farm rinse and repeat as fast as possible.PC NA2 -
svendf✭✭✭✭Agenericname wrote: »There just needs to be some sort of system that checks you actually are what you say you are.
Agreed, and there are multiple threads with people asking for that to occur. It seems to be getting worse. I queued for a vet dungeon tonight, a fairly easy pledge (WS), and there was a fake tank. Their health was 28k, so I figured they at least wouldn't go down easily, and they were CP1200 so I had hope they knew what they were doing.
When they started off with "Skip this first boss. Skip adds. Drag 'em to x," I thought it was annoying, especially with two CP50-CP200 players in the group that maybe hadn't done the dungeon countless times. However, it also gave the impression they were maybe familiar with tanking, albeit one of those tanks that thinks dragging as much as possible to one spot makes them a good tank even when it often results in losing aggro and having those behind attacked or, best case scenario, the pull results in no deaths but the npcs that were aggroed and not killed result in the group remaining in combat and unable to proceed through a door. Slow is smooth; smooth is fast.
We got through things ok despite the fake tank, got to final boss, read the scroll as it was a pledge, and realized the tank wasn't taunting. With the other two saying, "Do we have a tank?", the response from the fake tank was "Just kite the boss around". So now the three of us had to compensate for them skipping the queue, dps was low, and the boss kept getting dragged out of any dots. We wiped, and I asked the fake tank, "Do you have a taunt?". Answer: "No, does the healer have one?". I was the healer and responded, "I didn't queue as a tank". I do have a taunt, but if that boss takes awhile to go down, stamina runs out. It's a lot of pressure on a healer in HM. I started a vote to kick after that, which went through, and after waiting a few minutes for a tank replacement, decided to just go with Bastian. Turns out Bastian did a better job than the fake tank/selfish dd that wanted to save time skipping the queue and instead cost the three of us that got stuck with 'em time and frustration.
From what I've seen in the forums, the majority of players are opposed to fake tanks in pugs especially in dungeons in which the group would benefit from the fake tank at least having a taunt (though it's still frustrating as a healer to have to accommodate them by having my focus shift to keeping a low health fake tank alive). It can feel a little awkward to vote kick someone, but, without a system in place to check the person is in a role they're capable of, the system becomes the members of the group witnessing the behavior of others within the group. In my opinion, players should have some ability to adapt, give others the benefit of the doubt, and assist those learning. But when it's clear someone is completely selfish and hindering the other members of the group, never hesitate to vote to kick. That's the best way to discourage the behavior.
There often are numerous requests for this. Fortunately for most tanks, they're ignored or not acted upon.
Fake tanks fill a vacuum. If there were enough willing to queue, this would all be irrelevant. So any solution needs to be one that encourages real tanks to use the queue. Most of the suggestions fail miserably at that.
There`s many tanks in ESO, but they have stopped using group finder because people just run off and don´t respect tanks. you are dead wrong on this point.
There isn´t a vacuum to fill if those player´s who is making trouble in dongeons, would play as a group member or stay out of group finder, which is very hard for them to do it seems, lol. You will see more tanks use group finder again if poeple wil start to behave. That I can asure you.1 -
svendf✭✭✭✭I have four tanks, and when I come as tank I want to tank. When a dd runs ahead and aggros, even if they're capable of staying alive, it's disrepectful and often creates chaos that's unnecessary. When a tank is able to do their job and dps is low or mechanics aren't known, the tank is often put into the role of becoming the teacher. Most players do, in fact, choose dd as a way to play, and many of those are ignorant as to what a tank or healer can provide resulting in a common misunderstanding that support roles aren't valuable. I'd argue even if it's for FG1, if it's a pug, a tank has to be able to learn to tank so they can feel comfortable moving onto vet DLC trials and dungeons. Options like 3dd/1h or 4dd will just result in less end game tanks.
This0 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Agenericname wrote: »There just needs to be some sort of system that checks you actually are what you say you are.
Agreed, and there are multiple threads with people asking for that to occur. It seems to be getting worse. I queued for a vet dungeon tonight, a fairly easy pledge (WS), and there was a fake tank. Their health was 28k, so I figured they at least wouldn't go down easily, and they were CP1200 so I had hope they knew what they were doing.
When they started off with "Skip this first boss. Skip adds. Drag 'em to x," I thought it was annoying, especially with two CP50-CP200 players in the group that maybe hadn't done the dungeon countless times. However, it also gave the impression they were maybe familiar with tanking, albeit one of those tanks that thinks dragging as much as possible to one spot makes them a good tank even when it often results in losing aggro and having those behind attacked or, best case scenario, the pull results in no deaths but the npcs that were aggroed and not killed result in the group remaining in combat and unable to proceed through a door. Slow is smooth; smooth is fast.
We got through things ok despite the fake tank, got to final boss, read the scroll as it was a pledge, and realized the tank wasn't taunting. With the other two saying, "Do we have a tank?", the response from the fake tank was "Just kite the boss around". So now the three of us had to compensate for them skipping the queue, dps was low, and the boss kept getting dragged out of any dots. We wiped, and I asked the fake tank, "Do you have a taunt?". Answer: "No, does the healer have one?". I was the healer and responded, "I didn't queue as a tank". I do have a taunt, but if that boss takes awhile to go down, stamina runs out. It's a lot of pressure on a healer in HM. I started a vote to kick after that, which went through, and after waiting a few minutes for a tank replacement, decided to just go with Bastian. Turns out Bastian did a better job than the fake tank/selfish dd that wanted to save time skipping the queue and instead cost the three of us that got stuck with 'em time and frustration.
From what I've seen in the forums, the majority of players are opposed to fake tanks in pugs especially in dungeons in which the group would benefit from the fake tank at least having a taunt (though it's still frustrating as a healer to have to accommodate them by having my focus shift to keeping a low health fake tank alive). It can feel a little awkward to vote kick someone, but, without a system in place to check the person is in a role they're capable of, the system becomes the members of the group witnessing the behavior of others within the group. In my opinion, players should have some ability to adapt, give others the benefit of the doubt, and assist those learning. But when it's clear someone is completely selfish and hindering the other members of the group, never hesitate to vote to kick. That's the best way to discourage the behavior.
There often are numerous requests for this. Fortunately for most tanks, they're ignored or not acted upon.
Fake tanks fill a vacuum. If there were enough willing to queue, this would all be irrelevant. So any solution needs to be one that encourages real tanks to use the queue. Most of the suggestions fail miserably at that.
There`s many tanks in ESO, but they have stopped using group finder because people just run off and don´t respect tanks. you are dead wrong on this point.
There isn´t a vacuum to fill if those player´s who is making trouble in dongeons, would play as a group member or stay out of group finder, which is very hard for them to do it seems, lol. You will see more tanks use group finder again if poeple wil start to behave. That I can asure you.
Which part exactly is "dead wrong?" You seem to have said the same thing.
0 -
svendf✭✭✭✭Starlight_Whisper wrote: »I have four tanks, and when I come as tank I want to tank. When a dd runs ahead and aggros, even if they're capable of staying alive, it's disrepectful and often creates chaos that's unnecessary. When a tank is able to do their job and dps is low or mechanics aren't known, the tank is often put into the role of becoming the teacher. Most players do, in fact, choose dd as a way to play, and many of those are ignorant as to what a tank or healer can provide resulting in a common misunderstanding that support roles aren't valuable. I'd argue even if it's for FG1, if it's a pug, a tank has to be able to learn to tank so they can feel comfortable moving onto vet DLC trials and dungeons. Options like 3dd/1h or 4dd will just result in less end game tanks.
Maybe that is so... But people that want to tank would still be able to queue as tanks and learn. The dds that just want to run ahead can just do that in 4dds groups. End game tanks would still exist and that would not change.
Should be consequences of lacking a tank.
Yes and a healer. I wouldn´t be surpriced if they are working on it bit by bit, step by step. This is something you can´t do over night. ZOS know what´s going on. Right now or starting a year or maybe two years back dungeons and group ffinder haven´t been healthy for some to use, based on a game, which should bring some enjoyment lol0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Maybe that is so... But people that want to tank would still be able to queue as tanks and learn. The dds that just want to run ahead can just do that in 4dds groups. End game tanks would still exist and that would not change.
If a new player enters the game wanting to be a tank main, and opportunities are taken away from them to learn how to be a tank, there will be less end game tanks. That's just a fact. I'm CP1800+, been playing over 5 years, and when I see in zone or even in guild chat "Random normal, LF 3 dps", I don't x up if I'm on my healer. I can do more dps than most dedicated dd's in a pug group and slot a bit of gear more dedicated to doing so, but it's off putting. I certainly wouldn't x up on one of my tanks as they can't out dps a dedicated dd. My tanks are end game tanks and carry around enough sets without trying to also be dd's because someone in guild finder needs me to fulfill their role. I can only imagine what it feels like to a new healer or tank. To make that a part of the guild finder, in my opinion, would only push more players to dd main and exacerbate the problem.
I can see your point. But seeing how little tanks already exist in game and how people dont want to heal anymore. having queues dedicated to 3dds or 4 dds would not change much and would make it simpler for people that want to play 'normal' way.
Doubt it would change anything.
The # of DD's in game compared to tanks and healers would mean there would still be a wait even for 4 DD queues, so they would still hit up the T/ H / 2 DD queue as tanks and healers to bypass it.
Nothing would really change. Except seeing 4 DD queues would probably give off the impression to newer gamers that tanks and healers are unnecessary.
Changing the queue won't solve the problem.
indeed. that is correct. this is why there needs to be a way to lock people to roles. or at least check they can do what they say they can .... .i do realize its near impossible.
No, there shouldn't be checks or locks.
If we go that route, we might as well just take away any creative freedom people have to build their own characters.
People want all these checks and requirements for roles. The game may as well just eliminate builds altogether. No more variations on roles or classes, just make character creation simple:
*Tank
*Stamina DPS
*Magicka DPS
*Healer
No more Nightblade, Dragon Knight, Necromancer, Sorcerer, etc...
Each new class comes pre-equipped with the necessary skills; I.E. Tank has "Taunt", "Resolve", "Maim", "Breach / Fracture", "Crowd Control", "Heal"
There's no more gear farming, each new class comes pre-equipped with the sets that have been deemed "meta" and needed for content. I.E. Tank has "Alkosh" and "Yolnakhriin" already pre-equipped. No farming it, and no chance to change up. They automatically have "Crusher" enchants and "Reinforced" traits.
There's no more attributes. Each class automatically has their relevant attribute pool maxed out to 64. I.E. Tank has 64 health automatically added.
There's no more Mundus. Each class gets their necessary Mundus stone automatically added.
No race selection. Tanks are now automatically a Nord, stamina DPS are now automatically an Orc, magicka DPS are now automatically a High Elf, Healers are now automatically Argonian.
This is why I can't stand "meta" in the first place, because the meta aspires to turn the game into that. And having role checks and role locks are another step in that direction.
This is the same thing I said in the other thread from like a week ago. Nobody is entitled to other people's characters or performances. You are not entitled to other people performing up to your expectations, or building their characters to your standards. I personally will never run meta sets that other people tell me to wear or should wear, I will not let another person dictate *my* character, and nobody owes me their character build to match my expectations.
The fix to the dungeon finder is simple: Pre-made groups. If you are going to join the group finder queue, you are jumping into a queue with anyone and everyone who is playing the game. And everyone has equal right to the content.
On the same way that you are not entitled to anyone's builds or performances, they are not entitled to your time. If you don't like the group dynamic, you are free to leave the group.
I say this as a tank main who gets just as frustrated as anyone by getting groups with DPS in vet DLC dungeons that can't do the amount of damage necessary, or don't know mechanics and can't be bothered to learn because all they understand is dummy parsing.
I say this as someone who also rolls DPS and healers and hates getting fake tanks that can't aggro a mob for anything, and make the runs more tedious than they need to be all because they are greedy and want to cut the line.
I say this as someone who doesn't always have the energy to explain mechanics every single time I enter a DLC dungeon.
I get just as frustrated as anyone.
But one thing I never do is feel entitled to someone else's performance. They don't owe me a knowledge of a dungeon that they may be running for the first time. They don't owe me high DPS #'s when they may still be learning their rotation. They don't owe me set combinations that they may not have been able to collect yet, or may not want for their character because those sets aren't fun for them.
If I am not in the mood to deal with any of that, I have a simple solution. I can create my own group. I can ask in my guild, I can reach out to real life friends who play, I can form my own group of people who have all that stuff already if that's what I want. And I get it, sometimes it's easier to just hit the queue than it is to start asking around in guilds. I get it, and I find myself doing that a lot as well and just PUG'ing. But that is a choice I have to make, and if I do decide on the convenience of the dungeon queue, I also have to accept that I am in a pool of literally anyone and everyone in the game. And they all have equal rights to the dungeon queue as I do. You take the good with the bad, and it is what it is.
There doesn't need to be any changes to the queue. There don't need to be set checks, or stat checks, or skill checks, or DPS pre-parses, or anything like that. There is already a solution to the issues of the dungeon finder: pre-made groups.
Either form a pre-made, or go into the dungeon queue and deal with the fact that nobody in this game owes you anything.
And most importantly remember at the end of the day, this is just a game. None of this matters. It is something done for leisure. Once people actually remember that, then this community will be so much better.
That is very much out of context mate. The problem is:
Poor with no skill or awareness dds that queue as tanks or healers. The problem are not people that know what to do.
Normal dungeons are easy - but not so much if your tank is level 1400cp dd with 10k damage and no idea what he is doing cause he spent last week online farming for cp.
People that queue for role that allows them to get in dungeon fast cause queuing as dd take to long but never actually learned the mechanics of the game.
The problem are NOT:
People that know what to do with understanding of the game or/and its mechanics. Or low level people that are learning and are willing to do so.
Normal dungeons are easy even with the fake roles. Unless it's like Moon Hunter Keep or something. But I don't see people fake tanking those.
And it's not really out of context, because the locks and checks that you are requesting - and have been requested in the past - will impact those who are learning and willing to just as much as the fakes that you are trying to punish.
You edited your post after I already commented.... I am not suggesting not allowing people to be creative... I am suggesting not letting people to queue as tank or heal if they have no idea about what to do. I am not suggesting to do it by locing them in 1 set or 1 skill or 1 weapon. This can be done in other creative ways. For example. someone who queues as tank in dungeon has all 'heavy armour' passives unlocked. This would stop low skill level people to queue as tanks and dd-s that are high enough to have these unlocked would know what to do. That would not limit people CP - cause you can be hight CP and only have 50 skill points unlocked. And in that case you would not spend them in passives you are not currently using. Its an idea - others might be better.
I'm sorry, but it's not a good one.
What if someone hasn't maxed out their heavy armor skills yet? What if they are re-building a character from one role to another, and building their character and learning the role? Or they haven't gotten all the skill points they need yet to max out their heavy armor passives? There could be a number of reasons why someone hasn't maxed out their heavy armor passives yet and are still more than capable of tanking said dungeon. This will hurt the learning tank just as much, if not more, as any fakes you are attempting to punish.
There is a better solution: Form your own group! Then you don't have to worry about it period.
That is such a tired and useless response which is constantly regurgitated every time someone has a legitimate complaint about the groupfinder, which is currently a total mess. No, we cant require perfect builds and 90k parses to queue, but there are a lot of options in the middle ground to encourage and perhaps enforce the notion that people perform the roles they queue for.
Sure good players can 3 or 4 DPS virtually all normal and a good chunk of vet content, but the trinity is there for a reason. It works and the game was designed around it. It especially works when you have groups of players without comms, different skill/knowledge levels, etc. Responses like this make it almost impossible to have a meaningful discussion about potential solutions to a very real problem.0 -
amm7sb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Maybe that is so... But people that want to tank would still be able to queue as tanks and learn. The dds that just want to run ahead can just do that in 4dds groups. End game tanks would still exist and that would not change.
If a new player enters the game wanting to be a tank main, and opportunities are taken away from them to learn how to be a tank, there will be less end game tanks. That's just a fact. I'm CP1800+, been playing over 5 years, and when I see in zone or even in guild chat "Random normal, LF 3 dps", I don't x up if I'm on my healer. I can do more dps than most dedicated dd's in a pug group and slot a bit of gear more dedicated to doing so, but it's off putting. I certainly wouldn't x up on one of my tanks as they can't out dps a dedicated dd. My tanks are end game tanks and carry around enough sets without trying to also be dd's because someone in guild finder needs me to fulfill their role. I can only imagine what it feels like to a new healer or tank. To make that a part of the guild finder, in my opinion, would only push more players to dd main and exacerbate the problem.
I can see your point. But seeing how little tanks already exist in game and how people dont want to heal anymore. having queues dedicated to 3dds or 4 dds would not change much and would make it simpler for people that want to play 'normal' way.
Doubt it would change anything.
The # of DD's in game compared to tanks and healers would mean there would still be a wait even for 4 DD queues, so they would still hit up the T/ H / 2 DD queue as tanks and healers to bypass it.
Nothing would really change. Except seeing 4 DD queues would probably give off the impression to newer gamers that tanks and healers are unnecessary.
Changing the queue won't solve the problem.
indeed. that is correct. this is why there needs to be a way to lock people to roles. or at least check they can do what they say they can .... .i do realize its near impossible.
No, there shouldn't be checks or locks.
If we go that route, we might as well just take away any creative freedom people have to build their own characters.
People want all these checks and requirements for roles. The game may as well just eliminate builds altogether. No more variations on roles or classes, just make character creation simple:
*Tank
*Stamina DPS
*Magicka DPS
*Healer
No more Nightblade, Dragon Knight, Necromancer, Sorcerer, etc...
Each new class comes pre-equipped with the necessary skills; I.E. Tank has "Taunt", "Resolve", "Maim", "Breach / Fracture", "Crowd Control", "Heal"
There's no more gear farming, each new class comes pre-equipped with the sets that have been deemed "meta" and needed for content. I.E. Tank has "Alkosh" and "Yolnakhriin" already pre-equipped. No farming it, and no chance to change up. They automatically have "Crusher" enchants and "Reinforced" traits.
There's no more attributes. Each class automatically has their relevant attribute pool maxed out to 64. I.E. Tank has 64 health automatically added.
There's no more Mundus. Each class gets their necessary Mundus stone automatically added.
No race selection. Tanks are now automatically a Nord, stamina DPS are now automatically an Orc, magicka DPS are now automatically a High Elf, Healers are now automatically Argonian.
This is why I can't stand "meta" in the first place, because the meta aspires to turn the game into that. And having role checks and role locks are another step in that direction.
This is the same thing I said in the other thread from like a week ago. Nobody is entitled to other people's characters or performances. You are not entitled to other people performing up to your expectations, or building their characters to your standards. I personally will never run meta sets that other people tell me to wear or should wear, I will not let another person dictate *my* character, and nobody owes me their character build to match my expectations.
The fix to the dungeon finder is simple: Pre-made groups. If you are going to join the group finder queue, you are jumping into a queue with anyone and everyone who is playing the game. And everyone has equal right to the content.
On the same way that you are not entitled to anyone's builds or performances, they are not entitled to your time. If you don't like the group dynamic, you are free to leave the group.
I say this as a tank main who gets just as frustrated as anyone by getting groups with DPS in vet DLC dungeons that can't do the amount of damage necessary, or don't know mechanics and can't be bothered to learn because all they understand is dummy parsing.
I say this as someone who also rolls DPS and healers and hates getting fake tanks that can't aggro a mob for anything, and make the runs more tedious than they need to be all because they are greedy and want to cut the line.
I say this as someone who doesn't always have the energy to explain mechanics every single time I enter a DLC dungeon.
I get just as frustrated as anyone.
But one thing I never do is feel entitled to someone else's performance. They don't owe me a knowledge of a dungeon that they may be running for the first time. They don't owe me high DPS #'s when they may still be learning their rotation. They don't owe me set combinations that they may not have been able to collect yet, or may not want for their character because those sets aren't fun for them.
If I am not in the mood to deal with any of that, I have a simple solution. I can create my own group. I can ask in my guild, I can reach out to real life friends who play, I can form my own group of people who have all that stuff already if that's what I want. And I get it, sometimes it's easier to just hit the queue than it is to start asking around in guilds. I get it, and I find myself doing that a lot as well and just PUG'ing. But that is a choice I have to make, and if I do decide on the convenience of the dungeon queue, I also have to accept that I am in a pool of literally anyone and everyone in the game. And they all have equal rights to the dungeon queue as I do. You take the good with the bad, and it is what it is.
There doesn't need to be any changes to the queue. There don't need to be set checks, or stat checks, or skill checks, or DPS pre-parses, or anything like that. There is already a solution to the issues of the dungeon finder: pre-made groups.
Either form a pre-made, or go into the dungeon queue and deal with the fact that nobody in this game owes you anything.
And most importantly remember at the end of the day, this is just a game. None of this matters. It is something done for leisure. Once people actually remember that, then this community will be so much better.
That is very much out of context mate. The problem is:
Poor with no skill or awareness dds that queue as tanks or healers. The problem are not people that know what to do.
Normal dungeons are easy - but not so much if your tank is level 1400cp dd with 10k damage and no idea what he is doing cause he spent last week online farming for cp.
People that queue for role that allows them to get in dungeon fast cause queuing as dd take to long but never actually learned the mechanics of the game.
The problem are NOT:
People that know what to do with understanding of the game or/and its mechanics. Or low level people that are learning and are willing to do so.
Normal dungeons are easy even with the fake roles. Unless it's like Moon Hunter Keep or something. But I don't see people fake tanking those.
And it's not really out of context, because the locks and checks that you are requesting - and have been requested in the past - will impact those who are learning and willing to just as much as the fakes that you are trying to punish.
You edited your post after I already commented.... I am not suggesting not allowing people to be creative... I am suggesting not letting people to queue as tank or heal if they have no idea about what to do. I am not suggesting to do it by locing them in 1 set or 1 skill or 1 weapon. This can be done in other creative ways. For example. someone who queues as tank in dungeon has all 'heavy armour' passives unlocked. This would stop low skill level people to queue as tanks and dd-s that are high enough to have these unlocked would know what to do. That would not limit people CP - cause you can be hight CP and only have 50 skill points unlocked. And in that case you would not spend them in passives you are not currently using. Its an idea - others might be better.
I'm sorry, but it's not a good one.
What if someone hasn't maxed out their heavy armor skills yet? What if they are re-building a character from one role to another, and building their character and learning the role? Or they haven't gotten all the skill points they need yet to max out their heavy armor passives? There could be a number of reasons why someone hasn't maxed out their heavy armor passives yet and are still more than capable of tanking said dungeon. This will hurt the learning tank just as much, if not more, as any fakes you are attempting to punish.
There is a better solution: Form your own group! Then you don't have to worry about it period.
That is such a tired and useless response which is constantly regurgitated every time someone has a legitimate complaint about the groupfinder, which is currently a total mess. No, we cant require perfect builds and 90k parses to queue, but there are a lot of options in the middle ground to encourage and perhaps enforce the notion that people perform the roles they queue for.
Sure good players can 3 or 4 DPS virtually all normal and a good chunk of vet content, but the trinity is there for a reason. It works and the game was designed around it. It especially works when you have groups of players without comms, different skill/knowledge levels, etc. Responses like this make it almost impossible to have a meaningful discussion about potential solutions to a very real problem.
It's only a "tired and useless response" because it forces you to be accountable for your own actions. It doesn't allow you to dictate how other people play or treat their characters, and it doesn't allow you to claim ownership over content.
Take accountability for *your choices* and realize that you are not entitled to anybody's performance, and they don't owe you a build that lives up to your standards.
Use the options you have available to have the experience that you want, or don't complain when you choose not to.0 -
svendf✭✭✭✭Agenericname wrote: »Agenericname wrote: »There just needs to be some sort of system that checks you actually are what you say you are.
Agreed, and there are multiple threads with people asking for that to occur. It seems to be getting worse. I queued for a vet dungeon tonight, a fairly easy pledge (WS), and there was a fake tank. Their health was 28k, so I figured they at least wouldn't go down easily, and they were CP1200 so I had hope they knew what they were doing.
When they started off with "Skip this first boss. Skip adds. Drag 'em to x," I thought it was annoying, especially with two CP50-CP200 players in the group that maybe hadn't done the dungeon countless times. However, it also gave the impression they were maybe familiar with tanking, albeit one of those tanks that thinks dragging as much as possible to one spot makes them a good tank even when it often results in losing aggro and having those behind attacked or, best case scenario, the pull results in no deaths but the npcs that were aggroed and not killed result in the group remaining in combat and unable to proceed through a door. Slow is smooth; smooth is fast.
We got through things ok despite the fake tank, got to final boss, read the scroll as it was a pledge, and realized the tank wasn't taunting. With the other two saying, "Do we have a tank?", the response from the fake tank was "Just kite the boss around". So now the three of us had to compensate for them skipping the queue, dps was low, and the boss kept getting dragged out of any dots. We wiped, and I asked the fake tank, "Do you have a taunt?". Answer: "No, does the healer have one?". I was the healer and responded, "I didn't queue as a tank". I do have a taunt, but if that boss takes awhile to go down, stamina runs out. It's a lot of pressure on a healer in HM. I started a vote to kick after that, which went through, and after waiting a few minutes for a tank replacement, decided to just go with Bastian. Turns out Bastian did a better job than the fake tank/selfish dd that wanted to save time skipping the queue and instead cost the three of us that got stuck with 'em time and frustration.
From what I've seen in the forums, the majority of players are opposed to fake tanks in pugs especially in dungeons in which the group would benefit from the fake tank at least having a taunt (though it's still frustrating as a healer to have to accommodate them by having my focus shift to keeping a low health fake tank alive). It can feel a little awkward to vote kick someone, but, without a system in place to check the person is in a role they're capable of, the system becomes the members of the group witnessing the behavior of others within the group. In my opinion, players should have some ability to adapt, give others the benefit of the doubt, and assist those learning. But when it's clear someone is completely selfish and hindering the other members of the group, never hesitate to vote to kick. That's the best way to discourage the behavior.
There often are numerous requests for this. Fortunately for most tanks, they're ignored or not acted upon.
Fake tanks fill a vacuum. If there were enough willing to queue, this would all be irrelevant. So any solution needs to be one that encourages real tanks to use the queue. Most of the suggestions fail miserably at that.
There`s many tanks in ESO, but they have stopped using group finder because people just run off and don´t respect tanks. you are dead wrong on this point.
There isn´t a vacuum to fill if those player´s who is making trouble in dongeons, would play as a group member or stay out of group finder, which is very hard for them to do it seems, lol. You will see more tanks use group finder again if poeple wil start to behave. That I can asure you.
Which part exactly is "dead wrong?" You seem to have said the same thing.
There isn´t a vacuum to fill because the tanks are there. It´s player created. I have seen people use "faketanks/healers fill a vacuum" as a bad excuse to support fakeroles (not pointing at you as in you support fakeroles).
I don´t agree there is a vacuum to fill. Simple as that
The minnute the greifing, bad attitude stops you will see tanks que again.
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bzz86✭✭✭✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Maybe that is so... But people that want to tank would still be able to queue as tanks and learn. The dds that just want to run ahead can just do that in 4dds groups. End game tanks would still exist and that would not change.
If a new player enters the game wanting to be a tank main, and opportunities are taken away from them to learn how to be a tank, there will be less end game tanks. That's just a fact. I'm CP1800+, been playing over 5 years, and when I see in zone or even in guild chat "Random normal, LF 3 dps", I don't x up if I'm on my healer. I can do more dps than most dedicated dd's in a pug group and slot a bit of gear more dedicated to doing so, but it's off putting. I certainly wouldn't x up on one of my tanks as they can't out dps a dedicated dd. My tanks are end game tanks and carry around enough sets without trying to also be dd's because someone in guild finder needs me to fulfill their role. I can only imagine what it feels like to a new healer or tank. To make that a part of the guild finder, in my opinion, would only push more players to dd main and exacerbate the problem.
I can see your point. But seeing how little tanks already exist in game and how people dont want to heal anymore. having queues dedicated to 3dds or 4 dds would not change much and would make it simpler for people that want to play 'normal' way.
Doubt it would change anything.
The # of DD's in game compared to tanks and healers would mean there would still be a wait even for 4 DD queues, so they would still hit up the T/ H / 2 DD queue as tanks and healers to bypass it.
Nothing would really change. Except seeing 4 DD queues would probably give off the impression to newer gamers that tanks and healers are unnecessary.
Changing the queue won't solve the problem.
indeed. that is correct. this is why there needs to be a way to lock people to roles. or at least check they can do what they say they can .... .i do realize its near impossible.
No, there shouldn't be checks or locks.
If we go that route, we might as well just take away any creative freedom people have to build their own characters.
People want all these checks and requirements for roles. The game may as well just eliminate builds altogether. No more variations on roles or classes, just make character creation simple:
*Tank
*Stamina DPS
*Magicka DPS
*Healer
No more Nightblade, Dragon Knight, Necromancer, Sorcerer, etc...
Each new class comes pre-equipped with the necessary skills; I.E. Tank has "Taunt", "Resolve", "Maim", "Breach / Fracture", "Crowd Control", "Heal"
There's no more gear farming, each new class comes pre-equipped with the sets that have been deemed "meta" and needed for content. I.E. Tank has "Alkosh" and "Yolnakhriin" already pre-equipped. No farming it, and no chance to change up. They automatically have "Crusher" enchants and "Reinforced" traits.
There's no more attributes. Each class automatically has their relevant attribute pool maxed out to 64. I.E. Tank has 64 health automatically added.
There's no more Mundus. Each class gets their necessary Mundus stone automatically added.
No race selection. Tanks are now automatically a Nord, stamina DPS are now automatically an Orc, magicka DPS are now automatically a High Elf, Healers are now automatically Argonian.
This is why I can't stand "meta" in the first place, because the meta aspires to turn the game into that. And having role checks and role locks are another step in that direction.
This is the same thing I said in the other thread from like a week ago. Nobody is entitled to other people's characters or performances. You are not entitled to other people performing up to your expectations, or building their characters to your standards. I personally will never run meta sets that other people tell me to wear or should wear, I will not let another person dictate *my* character, and nobody owes me their character build to match my expectations.
The fix to the dungeon finder is simple: Pre-made groups. If you are going to join the group finder queue, you are jumping into a queue with anyone and everyone who is playing the game. And everyone has equal right to the content.
On the same way that you are not entitled to anyone's builds or performances, they are not entitled to your time. If you don't like the group dynamic, you are free to leave the group.
I say this as a tank main who gets just as frustrated as anyone by getting groups with DPS in vet DLC dungeons that can't do the amount of damage necessary, or don't know mechanics and can't be bothered to learn because all they understand is dummy parsing.
I say this as someone who also rolls DPS and healers and hates getting fake tanks that can't aggro a mob for anything, and make the runs more tedious than they need to be all because they are greedy and want to cut the line.
I say this as someone who doesn't always have the energy to explain mechanics every single time I enter a DLC dungeon.
I get just as frustrated as anyone.
But one thing I never do is feel entitled to someone else's performance. They don't owe me a knowledge of a dungeon that they may be running for the first time. They don't owe me high DPS #'s when they may still be learning their rotation. They don't owe me set combinations that they may not have been able to collect yet, or may not want for their character because those sets aren't fun for them.
If I am not in the mood to deal with any of that, I have a simple solution. I can create my own group. I can ask in my guild, I can reach out to real life friends who play, I can form my own group of people who have all that stuff already if that's what I want. And I get it, sometimes it's easier to just hit the queue than it is to start asking around in guilds. I get it, and I find myself doing that a lot as well and just PUG'ing. But that is a choice I have to make, and if I do decide on the convenience of the dungeon queue, I also have to accept that I am in a pool of literally anyone and everyone in the game. And they all have equal rights to the dungeon queue as I do. You take the good with the bad, and it is what it is.
There doesn't need to be any changes to the queue. There don't need to be set checks, or stat checks, or skill checks, or DPS pre-parses, or anything like that. There is already a solution to the issues of the dungeon finder: pre-made groups.
Either form a pre-made, or go into the dungeon queue and deal with the fact that nobody in this game owes you anything.
And most importantly remember at the end of the day, this is just a game. None of this matters. It is something done for leisure. Once people actually remember that, then this community will be so much better.
That is very much out of context mate. The problem is:
Poor with no skill or awareness dds that queue as tanks or healers. The problem are not people that know what to do.
Normal dungeons are easy - but not so much if your tank is level 1400cp dd with 10k damage and no idea what he is doing cause he spent last week online farming for cp.
People that queue for role that allows them to get in dungeon fast cause queuing as dd take to long but never actually learned the mechanics of the game.
The problem are NOT:
People that know what to do with understanding of the game or/and its mechanics. Or low level people that are learning and are willing to do so.
Normal dungeons are easy even with the fake roles. Unless it's like Moon Hunter Keep or something. But I don't see people fake tanking those.
And it's not really out of context, because the locks and checks that you are requesting - and have been requested in the past - will impact those who are learning and willing to just as much as the fakes that you are trying to punish.
You edited your post after I already commented.... I am not suggesting not allowing people to be creative... I am suggesting not letting people to queue as tank or heal if they have no idea about what to do. I am not suggesting to do it by locing them in 1 set or 1 skill or 1 weapon. This can be done in other creative ways. For example. someone who queues as tank in dungeon has all 'heavy armour' passives unlocked. This would stop low skill level people to queue as tanks and dd-s that are high enough to have these unlocked would know what to do. That would not limit people CP - cause you can be hight CP and only have 50 skill points unlocked. And in that case you would not spend them in passives you are not currently using. Its an idea - others might be better.
I'm sorry, but it's not a good one.
What if someone hasn't maxed out their heavy armor skills yet? What if they are re-building a character from one role to another, and building their character and learning the role? Or they haven't gotten all the skill points they need yet to max out their heavy armor passives? There could be a number of reasons why someone hasn't maxed out their heavy armor passives yet and are still more than capable of tanking said dungeon. This will hurt the learning tank just as much, if not more, as any fakes you are attempting to punish.
There is a better solution: Form your own group! Then you don't have to worry about it period.
That is such a tired and useless response which is constantly regurgitated every time someone has a legitimate complaint about the groupfinder, which is currently a total mess. No, we cant require perfect builds and 90k parses to queue, but there are a lot of options in the middle ground to encourage and perhaps enforce the notion that people perform the roles they queue for.
Sure good players can 3 or 4 DPS virtually all normal and a good chunk of vet content, but the trinity is there for a reason. It works and the game was designed around it. It especially works when you have groups of players without comms, different skill/knowledge levels, etc. Responses like this make it almost impossible to have a meaningful discussion about potential solutions to a very real problem.
It's only a "tired and useless response" because it forces you to be accountable for your own actions. It doesn't allow you to dictate how other people play or treat their characters, and it doesn't allow you to claim ownership over content.
Take accountability for *your choices* and realize that you are not entitled to anybody's performance, and they don't owe you a build that lives up to your standards.
Use the options you have available to have the experience that you want, or don't complain when you choose not to.
We are not talking about builds. What @Oreyn_Bearclaw said stands, and if you read what others and myself said earlier you will understand. How can you say its our choice when we dont have a choice if we want to use the tool. The only choice is to use or not to use it. Further the design of the tool itself is a problem. Nobody wants to force their opinion down on you - but I do not think you see our point. Have a search around the forum, please.
What you said ' Use the options you have available to have the experience that you want, or don't complain when you choose not to.' is very important. We use the options we have and dont have the experience we want, we complain cause we choose to use the tool that was given to us. The tool was given in good faith and created with 'trinity' in mind. It is clearly broken.Edited by bzz86 on June 22, 2021 8:06PM1 -
Aertew✭✭✭✭I agree that it needs to check. I think WoW and FF have something like that. 2 ways to fix is have requirments for tanking. Like 40k HP and at least 1 taunt ability slotted. However how ff and WoW does it is each class or spec has a certain role and you cant change the role. ESO lets people switch their own role which gives them too much power.
This could be fixed just by allowing a way to create and look for groups like WoW does. Again this is difficult because ESO allows so much freedom which isn't a bad thing.0 -
svendf✭✭✭✭I agree that it needs to check. I think WoW and FF have something like that. 2 ways to fix is have requirments for tanking. Like 40k HP and at least 1 taunt ability slotted. However how ff and WoW does it is each class or spec has a certain role and you cant change the role. ESO lets people switch their own role which gives them too much power.
This could be fixed just by allowing a way to create and look for groups like WoW does. Again this is difficult because ESO allows so much freedom which isn't a bad thing.
I agree freedom is good but some are not good at handling freedom. Some people need some advice or guidens so they don´t ruin other groupmembers enjoyment. 0 -
amm7sb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭I agree that it needs to check. I think WoW and FF have something like that. 2 ways to fix is have requirments for tanking. Like 40k HP and at least 1 taunt ability slotted. However how ff and WoW does it is each class or spec has a certain role and you cant change the role. ESO lets people switch their own role which gives them too much power.
This could be fixed just by allowing a way to create and look for groups like WoW does. Again this is difficult because ESO allows so much freedom which isn't a bad thing.
I agree freedom is good but some are not good at handling freedom. Some people need some advice or guidens so they don´t ruin other groupmembers enjoyment.
Translation: They aren't using their freedom the way you want them to, so they should be forced to do things in the way that you want them to.0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Maybe that is so... But people that want to tank would still be able to queue as tanks and learn. The dds that just want to run ahead can just do that in 4dds groups. End game tanks would still exist and that would not change.
If a new player enters the game wanting to be a tank main, and opportunities are taken away from them to learn how to be a tank, there will be less end game tanks. That's just a fact. I'm CP1800+, been playing over 5 years, and when I see in zone or even in guild chat "Random normal, LF 3 dps", I don't x up if I'm on my healer. I can do more dps than most dedicated dd's in a pug group and slot a bit of gear more dedicated to doing so, but it's off putting. I certainly wouldn't x up on one of my tanks as they can't out dps a dedicated dd. My tanks are end game tanks and carry around enough sets without trying to also be dd's because someone in guild finder needs me to fulfill their role. I can only imagine what it feels like to a new healer or tank. To make that a part of the guild finder, in my opinion, would only push more players to dd main and exacerbate the problem.
I can see your point. But seeing how little tanks already exist in game and how people dont want to heal anymore. having queues dedicated to 3dds or 4 dds would not change much and would make it simpler for people that want to play 'normal' way.
Doubt it would change anything.
The # of DD's in game compared to tanks and healers would mean there would still be a wait even for 4 DD queues, so they would still hit up the T/ H / 2 DD queue as tanks and healers to bypass it.
Nothing would really change. Except seeing 4 DD queues would probably give off the impression to newer gamers that tanks and healers are unnecessary.
Changing the queue won't solve the problem.
indeed. that is correct. this is why there needs to be a way to lock people to roles. or at least check they can do what they say they can .... .i do realize its near impossible.
No, there shouldn't be checks or locks.
If we go that route, we might as well just take away any creative freedom people have to build their own characters.
People want all these checks and requirements for roles. The game may as well just eliminate builds altogether. No more variations on roles or classes, just make character creation simple:
*Tank
*Stamina DPS
*Magicka DPS
*Healer
No more Nightblade, Dragon Knight, Necromancer, Sorcerer, etc...
Each new class comes pre-equipped with the necessary skills; I.E. Tank has "Taunt", "Resolve", "Maim", "Breach / Fracture", "Crowd Control", "Heal"
There's no more gear farming, each new class comes pre-equipped with the sets that have been deemed "meta" and needed for content. I.E. Tank has "Alkosh" and "Yolnakhriin" already pre-equipped. No farming it, and no chance to change up. They automatically have "Crusher" enchants and "Reinforced" traits.
There's no more attributes. Each class automatically has their relevant attribute pool maxed out to 64. I.E. Tank has 64 health automatically added.
There's no more Mundus. Each class gets their necessary Mundus stone automatically added.
No race selection. Tanks are now automatically a Nord, stamina DPS are now automatically an Orc, magicka DPS are now automatically a High Elf, Healers are now automatically Argonian.
This is why I can't stand "meta" in the first place, because the meta aspires to turn the game into that. And having role checks and role locks are another step in that direction.
This is the same thing I said in the other thread from like a week ago. Nobody is entitled to other people's characters or performances. You are not entitled to other people performing up to your expectations, or building their characters to your standards. I personally will never run meta sets that other people tell me to wear or should wear, I will not let another person dictate *my* character, and nobody owes me their character build to match my expectations.
The fix to the dungeon finder is simple: Pre-made groups. If you are going to join the group finder queue, you are jumping into a queue with anyone and everyone who is playing the game. And everyone has equal right to the content.
On the same way that you are not entitled to anyone's builds or performances, they are not entitled to your time. If you don't like the group dynamic, you are free to leave the group.
I say this as a tank main who gets just as frustrated as anyone by getting groups with DPS in vet DLC dungeons that can't do the amount of damage necessary, or don't know mechanics and can't be bothered to learn because all they understand is dummy parsing.
I say this as someone who also rolls DPS and healers and hates getting fake tanks that can't aggro a mob for anything, and make the runs more tedious than they need to be all because they are greedy and want to cut the line.
I say this as someone who doesn't always have the energy to explain mechanics every single time I enter a DLC dungeon.
I get just as frustrated as anyone.
But one thing I never do is feel entitled to someone else's performance. They don't owe me a knowledge of a dungeon that they may be running for the first time. They don't owe me high DPS #'s when they may still be learning their rotation. They don't owe me set combinations that they may not have been able to collect yet, or may not want for their character because those sets aren't fun for them.
If I am not in the mood to deal with any of that, I have a simple solution. I can create my own group. I can ask in my guild, I can reach out to real life friends who play, I can form my own group of people who have all that stuff already if that's what I want. And I get it, sometimes it's easier to just hit the queue than it is to start asking around in guilds. I get it, and I find myself doing that a lot as well and just PUG'ing. But that is a choice I have to make, and if I do decide on the convenience of the dungeon queue, I also have to accept that I am in a pool of literally anyone and everyone in the game. And they all have equal rights to the dungeon queue as I do. You take the good with the bad, and it is what it is.
There doesn't need to be any changes to the queue. There don't need to be set checks, or stat checks, or skill checks, or DPS pre-parses, or anything like that. There is already a solution to the issues of the dungeon finder: pre-made groups.
Either form a pre-made, or go into the dungeon queue and deal with the fact that nobody in this game owes you anything.
And most importantly remember at the end of the day, this is just a game. None of this matters. It is something done for leisure. Once people actually remember that, then this community will be so much better.
That is very much out of context mate. The problem is:
Poor with no skill or awareness dds that queue as tanks or healers. The problem are not people that know what to do.
Normal dungeons are easy - but not so much if your tank is level 1400cp dd with 10k damage and no idea what he is doing cause he spent last week online farming for cp.
People that queue for role that allows them to get in dungeon fast cause queuing as dd take to long but never actually learned the mechanics of the game.
The problem are NOT:
People that know what to do with understanding of the game or/and its mechanics. Or low level people that are learning and are willing to do so.
Normal dungeons are easy even with the fake roles. Unless it's like Moon Hunter Keep or something. But I don't see people fake tanking those.
And it's not really out of context, because the locks and checks that you are requesting - and have been requested in the past - will impact those who are learning and willing to just as much as the fakes that you are trying to punish.
You edited your post after I already commented.... I am not suggesting not allowing people to be creative... I am suggesting not letting people to queue as tank or heal if they have no idea about what to do. I am not suggesting to do it by locing them in 1 set or 1 skill or 1 weapon. This can be done in other creative ways. For example. someone who queues as tank in dungeon has all 'heavy armour' passives unlocked. This would stop low skill level people to queue as tanks and dd-s that are high enough to have these unlocked would know what to do. That would not limit people CP - cause you can be hight CP and only have 50 skill points unlocked. And in that case you would not spend them in passives you are not currently using. Its an idea - others might be better.
I'm sorry, but it's not a good one.
What if someone hasn't maxed out their heavy armor skills yet? What if they are re-building a character from one role to another, and building their character and learning the role? Or they haven't gotten all the skill points they need yet to max out their heavy armor passives? There could be a number of reasons why someone hasn't maxed out their heavy armor passives yet and are still more than capable of tanking said dungeon. This will hurt the learning tank just as much, if not more, as any fakes you are attempting to punish.
There is a better solution: Form your own group! Then you don't have to worry about it period.
That is such a tired and useless response which is constantly regurgitated every time someone has a legitimate complaint about the groupfinder, which is currently a total mess. No, we cant require perfect builds and 90k parses to queue, but there are a lot of options in the middle ground to encourage and perhaps enforce the notion that people perform the roles they queue for.
Sure good players can 3 or 4 DPS virtually all normal and a good chunk of vet content, but the trinity is there for a reason. It works and the game was designed around it. It especially works when you have groups of players without comms, different skill/knowledge levels, etc. Responses like this make it almost impossible to have a meaningful discussion about potential solutions to a very real problem.
It's only a "tired and useless response" because it forces you to be accountable for your own actions. It doesn't allow you to dictate how other people play or treat their characters, and it doesn't allow you to claim ownership over content.
Take accountability for *your choices* and realize that you are not entitled to anybody's performance, and they don't owe you a build that lives up to your standards.
Use the options you have available to have the experience that you want, or don't complain when you choose not to.
That makes zero sense, sorry to say. How can I use the option available to me to have the experience I want, when the primary game supported option for a random grouping is fundamentally flawed and prevents the experience that most people want, simply a relatively smooth and painless clear of a dungeon?
Too be honest, I really don't care about GF for personal use. I am capable of clearing all content and playing all roles at a high level. I have multiple guilds, and groups anytime I need to clear difficult content. I do however care about the overall health of ESO, and as a PVE focused MMO, the group finder is a big part of that.
You act like everyone one that complains about the current problem and poses solutions that might require some barebones requirement to queue is just another leet, entitled snob, but the reality is, there is another side of the coin.
Sure it is unreasonable to require specific gear, builds, or ridiculously high DPS requirements to queue, but its just as unreasonable, entitled and furthermore, wildly selfish, to take the play how you want attitude to the extreme and impose it on other players to their detriment in a public groupfinder. There is a middle ground here that ZOS needs to explore.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on June 22, 2021 8:20PM2 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Agenericname wrote: »Agenericname wrote: »There just needs to be some sort of system that checks you actually are what you say you are.
Agreed, and there are multiple threads with people asking for that to occur. It seems to be getting worse. I queued for a vet dungeon tonight, a fairly easy pledge (WS), and there was a fake tank. Their health was 28k, so I figured they at least wouldn't go down easily, and they were CP1200 so I had hope they knew what they were doing.
When they started off with "Skip this first boss. Skip adds. Drag 'em to x," I thought it was annoying, especially with two CP50-CP200 players in the group that maybe hadn't done the dungeon countless times. However, it also gave the impression they were maybe familiar with tanking, albeit one of those tanks that thinks dragging as much as possible to one spot makes them a good tank even when it often results in losing aggro and having those behind attacked or, best case scenario, the pull results in no deaths but the npcs that were aggroed and not killed result in the group remaining in combat and unable to proceed through a door. Slow is smooth; smooth is fast.
We got through things ok despite the fake tank, got to final boss, read the scroll as it was a pledge, and realized the tank wasn't taunting. With the other two saying, "Do we have a tank?", the response from the fake tank was "Just kite the boss around". So now the three of us had to compensate for them skipping the queue, dps was low, and the boss kept getting dragged out of any dots. We wiped, and I asked the fake tank, "Do you have a taunt?". Answer: "No, does the healer have one?". I was the healer and responded, "I didn't queue as a tank". I do have a taunt, but if that boss takes awhile to go down, stamina runs out. It's a lot of pressure on a healer in HM. I started a vote to kick after that, which went through, and after waiting a few minutes for a tank replacement, decided to just go with Bastian. Turns out Bastian did a better job than the fake tank/selfish dd that wanted to save time skipping the queue and instead cost the three of us that got stuck with 'em time and frustration.
From what I've seen in the forums, the majority of players are opposed to fake tanks in pugs especially in dungeons in which the group would benefit from the fake tank at least having a taunt (though it's still frustrating as a healer to have to accommodate them by having my focus shift to keeping a low health fake tank alive). It can feel a little awkward to vote kick someone, but, without a system in place to check the person is in a role they're capable of, the system becomes the members of the group witnessing the behavior of others within the group. In my opinion, players should have some ability to adapt, give others the benefit of the doubt, and assist those learning. But when it's clear someone is completely selfish and hindering the other members of the group, never hesitate to vote to kick. That's the best way to discourage the behavior.
There often are numerous requests for this. Fortunately for most tanks, they're ignored or not acted upon.
Fake tanks fill a vacuum. If there were enough willing to queue, this would all be irrelevant. So any solution needs to be one that encourages real tanks to use the queue. Most of the suggestions fail miserably at that.
There`s many tanks in ESO, but they have stopped using group finder because people just run off and don´t respect tanks. you are dead wrong on this point.
There isn´t a vacuum to fill if those player´s who is making trouble in dongeons, would play as a group member or stay out of group finder, which is very hard for them to do it seems, lol. You will see more tanks use group finder again if poeple wil start to behave. That I can asure you.
Which part exactly is "dead wrong?" You seem to have said the same thing.
There isn´t a vacuum to fill because the tanks are there. It´s player created. I have seen people use "faketanks/healers fill a vacuum" as a bad excuse to support fakeroles (not pointing at you as in you support fakeroles).
I don´t agree there is a vacuum to fill. Simple as that The minnute the greifing, bad attitude stops you will see tanks que again.
Ah. I think I see what youre saying. Im not saying that we need fake roles of any kind. Im saying that there are more tanks than most people think and certainly more than the DF would lead you to believe. They just dont PUG, for various reasons. Thats why the vacuum exists.
To solve that problem, you need more tanks to queue. Penalizing real tanks wont force them to queue, in fact it makes it even worse in some cases, and therefore doesnt address the real issue(s).
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amm7sb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Maybe that is so... But people that want to tank would still be able to queue as tanks and learn. The dds that just want to run ahead can just do that in 4dds groups. End game tanks would still exist and that would not change.
If a new player enters the game wanting to be a tank main, and opportunities are taken away from them to learn how to be a tank, there will be less end game tanks. That's just a fact. I'm CP1800+, been playing over 5 years, and when I see in zone or even in guild chat "Random normal, LF 3 dps", I don't x up if I'm on my healer. I can do more dps than most dedicated dd's in a pug group and slot a bit of gear more dedicated to doing so, but it's off putting. I certainly wouldn't x up on one of my tanks as they can't out dps a dedicated dd. My tanks are end game tanks and carry around enough sets without trying to also be dd's because someone in guild finder needs me to fulfill their role. I can only imagine what it feels like to a new healer or tank. To make that a part of the guild finder, in my opinion, would only push more players to dd main and exacerbate the problem.
I can see your point. But seeing how little tanks already exist in game and how people dont want to heal anymore. having queues dedicated to 3dds or 4 dds would not change much and would make it simpler for people that want to play 'normal' way.
Doubt it would change anything.
The # of DD's in game compared to tanks and healers would mean there would still be a wait even for 4 DD queues, so they would still hit up the T/ H / 2 DD queue as tanks and healers to bypass it.
Nothing would really change. Except seeing 4 DD queues would probably give off the impression to newer gamers that tanks and healers are unnecessary.
Changing the queue won't solve the problem.
indeed. that is correct. this is why there needs to be a way to lock people to roles. or at least check they can do what they say they can .... .i do realize its near impossible.
No, there shouldn't be checks or locks.
If we go that route, we might as well just take away any creative freedom people have to build their own characters.
People want all these checks and requirements for roles. The game may as well just eliminate builds altogether. No more variations on roles or classes, just make character creation simple:
*Tank
*Stamina DPS
*Magicka DPS
*Healer
No more Nightblade, Dragon Knight, Necromancer, Sorcerer, etc...
Each new class comes pre-equipped with the necessary skills; I.E. Tank has "Taunt", "Resolve", "Maim", "Breach / Fracture", "Crowd Control", "Heal"
There's no more gear farming, each new class comes pre-equipped with the sets that have been deemed "meta" and needed for content. I.E. Tank has "Alkosh" and "Yolnakhriin" already pre-equipped. No farming it, and no chance to change up. They automatically have "Crusher" enchants and "Reinforced" traits.
There's no more attributes. Each class automatically has their relevant attribute pool maxed out to 64. I.E. Tank has 64 health automatically added.
There's no more Mundus. Each class gets their necessary Mundus stone automatically added.
No race selection. Tanks are now automatically a Nord, stamina DPS are now automatically an Orc, magicka DPS are now automatically a High Elf, Healers are now automatically Argonian.
This is why I can't stand "meta" in the first place, because the meta aspires to turn the game into that. And having role checks and role locks are another step in that direction.
This is the same thing I said in the other thread from like a week ago. Nobody is entitled to other people's characters or performances. You are not entitled to other people performing up to your expectations, or building their characters to your standards. I personally will never run meta sets that other people tell me to wear or should wear, I will not let another person dictate *my* character, and nobody owes me their character build to match my expectations.
The fix to the dungeon finder is simple: Pre-made groups. If you are going to join the group finder queue, you are jumping into a queue with anyone and everyone who is playing the game. And everyone has equal right to the content.
On the same way that you are not entitled to anyone's builds or performances, they are not entitled to your time. If you don't like the group dynamic, you are free to leave the group.
I say this as a tank main who gets just as frustrated as anyone by getting groups with DPS in vet DLC dungeons that can't do the amount of damage necessary, or don't know mechanics and can't be bothered to learn because all they understand is dummy parsing.
I say this as someone who also rolls DPS and healers and hates getting fake tanks that can't aggro a mob for anything, and make the runs more tedious than they need to be all because they are greedy and want to cut the line.
I say this as someone who doesn't always have the energy to explain mechanics every single time I enter a DLC dungeon.
I get just as frustrated as anyone.
But one thing I never do is feel entitled to someone else's performance. They don't owe me a knowledge of a dungeon that they may be running for the first time. They don't owe me high DPS #'s when they may still be learning their rotation. They don't owe me set combinations that they may not have been able to collect yet, or may not want for their character because those sets aren't fun for them.
If I am not in the mood to deal with any of that, I have a simple solution. I can create my own group. I can ask in my guild, I can reach out to real life friends who play, I can form my own group of people who have all that stuff already if that's what I want. And I get it, sometimes it's easier to just hit the queue than it is to start asking around in guilds. I get it, and I find myself doing that a lot as well and just PUG'ing. But that is a choice I have to make, and if I do decide on the convenience of the dungeon queue, I also have to accept that I am in a pool of literally anyone and everyone in the game. And they all have equal rights to the dungeon queue as I do. You take the good with the bad, and it is what it is.
There doesn't need to be any changes to the queue. There don't need to be set checks, or stat checks, or skill checks, or DPS pre-parses, or anything like that. There is already a solution to the issues of the dungeon finder: pre-made groups.
Either form a pre-made, or go into the dungeon queue and deal with the fact that nobody in this game owes you anything.
And most importantly remember at the end of the day, this is just a game. None of this matters. It is something done for leisure. Once people actually remember that, then this community will be so much better.
That is very much out of context mate. The problem is:
Poor with no skill or awareness dds that queue as tanks or healers. The problem are not people that know what to do.
Normal dungeons are easy - but not so much if your tank is level 1400cp dd with 10k damage and no idea what he is doing cause he spent last week online farming for cp.
People that queue for role that allows them to get in dungeon fast cause queuing as dd take to long but never actually learned the mechanics of the game.
The problem are NOT:
People that know what to do with understanding of the game or/and its mechanics. Or low level people that are learning and are willing to do so.
Normal dungeons are easy even with the fake roles. Unless it's like Moon Hunter Keep or something. But I don't see people fake tanking those.
And it's not really out of context, because the locks and checks that you are requesting - and have been requested in the past - will impact those who are learning and willing to just as much as the fakes that you are trying to punish.
You edited your post after I already commented.... I am not suggesting not allowing people to be creative... I am suggesting not letting people to queue as tank or heal if they have no idea about what to do. I am not suggesting to do it by locing them in 1 set or 1 skill or 1 weapon. This can be done in other creative ways. For example. someone who queues as tank in dungeon has all 'heavy armour' passives unlocked. This would stop low skill level people to queue as tanks and dd-s that are high enough to have these unlocked would know what to do. That would not limit people CP - cause you can be hight CP and only have 50 skill points unlocked. And in that case you would not spend them in passives you are not currently using. Its an idea - others might be better.
I'm sorry, but it's not a good one.
What if someone hasn't maxed out their heavy armor skills yet? What if they are re-building a character from one role to another, and building their character and learning the role? Or they haven't gotten all the skill points they need yet to max out their heavy armor passives? There could be a number of reasons why someone hasn't maxed out their heavy armor passives yet and are still more than capable of tanking said dungeon. This will hurt the learning tank just as much, if not more, as any fakes you are attempting to punish.
There is a better solution: Form your own group! Then you don't have to worry about it period.
That is such a tired and useless response which is constantly regurgitated every time someone has a legitimate complaint about the groupfinder, which is currently a total mess. No, we cant require perfect builds and 90k parses to queue, but there are a lot of options in the middle ground to encourage and perhaps enforce the notion that people perform the roles they queue for.
Sure good players can 3 or 4 DPS virtually all normal and a good chunk of vet content, but the trinity is there for a reason. It works and the game was designed around it. It especially works when you have groups of players without comms, different skill/knowledge levels, etc. Responses like this make it almost impossible to have a meaningful discussion about potential solutions to a very real problem.
It's only a "tired and useless response" because it forces you to be accountable for your own actions. It doesn't allow you to dictate how other people play or treat their characters, and it doesn't allow you to claim ownership over content.
Take accountability for *your choices* and realize that you are not entitled to anybody's performance, and they don't owe you a build that lives up to your standards.
Use the options you have available to have the experience that you want, or don't complain when you choose not to.
We are not talking about builds. What @Oreyn_Bearclaw said stands, and if you read what others and myself said earlier you will understand. How can you say its our choice when we dont have a choice if we want to use the tool. The only choice is to use or not to use it. Further the design of the tool itself is a problem. Nobody wants to force their opinion down on you - but I do not think you see our point. Have a search around the forum, please.
What you said ' Use the options you have available to have the experience that you want, or don't complain when you choose not to.' is very important. We use the options we have and dont have the experience we want, we complain cause we choose to use the tool that was given to us. The tool was given in good faith and created with 'trinity' in mind. It is clearly broken.
I understand your points just fine. But they are wrong.
1. There is no system of checks that you can implement that *won't* hurt innocent players who are either A) utilizing creative freedom or
learning and developing their builds, just as much, if not moreso, than the "fakes" you want to punish.
2. There is a method, in game, that will guarantee that you get the experience you want, which is forming pre-made groups with people who want to play the same way. The dungeon finder queue is a tool to play the game, *not* a tool to have the experience that *you* dictate. The dungeon finder tool is specifically made to pool you with literally anyone and everyone in the game world. An experience or an outcome, by definition, cannot be guaranteed when you use such a tool, and you are not entitled to one. The dungeon queue is simply a tool to get you into the dungeon. If you want a particular experience, you will have to make a group of people who will give you that experience.
This is not a hard concept. If you use the dungeon finder queue, you are doing so knowing that you have 0 guaranteed outcome or experience. If you want standards imposed on your group, then it is *your* job to create your own group that adheres to those standards, *NOT* the job of the game to dictate those standards upon literally everyone else in the game.
This is a non-issue.1 -
amm7sb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Maybe that is so... But people that want to tank would still be able to queue as tanks and learn. The dds that just want to run ahead can just do that in 4dds groups. End game tanks would still exist and that would not change.
If a new player enters the game wanting to be a tank main, and opportunities are taken away from them to learn how to be a tank, there will be less end game tanks. That's just a fact. I'm CP1800+, been playing over 5 years, and when I see in zone or even in guild chat "Random normal, LF 3 dps", I don't x up if I'm on my healer. I can do more dps than most dedicated dd's in a pug group and slot a bit of gear more dedicated to doing so, but it's off putting. I certainly wouldn't x up on one of my tanks as they can't out dps a dedicated dd. My tanks are end game tanks and carry around enough sets without trying to also be dd's because someone in guild finder needs me to fulfill their role. I can only imagine what it feels like to a new healer or tank. To make that a part of the guild finder, in my opinion, would only push more players to dd main and exacerbate the problem.
I can see your point. But seeing how little tanks already exist in game and how people dont want to heal anymore. having queues dedicated to 3dds or 4 dds would not change much and would make it simpler for people that want to play 'normal' way.
Doubt it would change anything.
The # of DD's in game compared to tanks and healers would mean there would still be a wait even for 4 DD queues, so they would still hit up the T/ H / 2 DD queue as tanks and healers to bypass it.
Nothing would really change. Except seeing 4 DD queues would probably give off the impression to newer gamers that tanks and healers are unnecessary.
Changing the queue won't solve the problem.
indeed. that is correct. this is why there needs to be a way to lock people to roles. or at least check they can do what they say they can .... .i do realize its near impossible.
No, there shouldn't be checks or locks.
If we go that route, we might as well just take away any creative freedom people have to build their own characters.
People want all these checks and requirements for roles. The game may as well just eliminate builds altogether. No more variations on roles or classes, just make character creation simple:
*Tank
*Stamina DPS
*Magicka DPS
*Healer
No more Nightblade, Dragon Knight, Necromancer, Sorcerer, etc...
Each new class comes pre-equipped with the necessary skills; I.E. Tank has "Taunt", "Resolve", "Maim", "Breach / Fracture", "Crowd Control", "Heal"
There's no more gear farming, each new class comes pre-equipped with the sets that have been deemed "meta" and needed for content. I.E. Tank has "Alkosh" and "Yolnakhriin" already pre-equipped. No farming it, and no chance to change up. They automatically have "Crusher" enchants and "Reinforced" traits.
There's no more attributes. Each class automatically has their relevant attribute pool maxed out to 64. I.E. Tank has 64 health automatically added.
There's no more Mundus. Each class gets their necessary Mundus stone automatically added.
No race selection. Tanks are now automatically a Nord, stamina DPS are now automatically an Orc, magicka DPS are now automatically a High Elf, Healers are now automatically Argonian.
This is why I can't stand "meta" in the first place, because the meta aspires to turn the game into that. And having role checks and role locks are another step in that direction.
This is the same thing I said in the other thread from like a week ago. Nobody is entitled to other people's characters or performances. You are not entitled to other people performing up to your expectations, or building their characters to your standards. I personally will never run meta sets that other people tell me to wear or should wear, I will not let another person dictate *my* character, and nobody owes me their character build to match my expectations.
The fix to the dungeon finder is simple: Pre-made groups. If you are going to join the group finder queue, you are jumping into a queue with anyone and everyone who is playing the game. And everyone has equal right to the content.
On the same way that you are not entitled to anyone's builds or performances, they are not entitled to your time. If you don't like the group dynamic, you are free to leave the group.
I say this as a tank main who gets just as frustrated as anyone by getting groups with DPS in vet DLC dungeons that can't do the amount of damage necessary, or don't know mechanics and can't be bothered to learn because all they understand is dummy parsing.
I say this as someone who also rolls DPS and healers and hates getting fake tanks that can't aggro a mob for anything, and make the runs more tedious than they need to be all because they are greedy and want to cut the line.
I say this as someone who doesn't always have the energy to explain mechanics every single time I enter a DLC dungeon.
I get just as frustrated as anyone.
But one thing I never do is feel entitled to someone else's performance. They don't owe me a knowledge of a dungeon that they may be running for the first time. They don't owe me high DPS #'s when they may still be learning their rotation. They don't owe me set combinations that they may not have been able to collect yet, or may not want for their character because those sets aren't fun for them.
If I am not in the mood to deal with any of that, I have a simple solution. I can create my own group. I can ask in my guild, I can reach out to real life friends who play, I can form my own group of people who have all that stuff already if that's what I want. And I get it, sometimes it's easier to just hit the queue than it is to start asking around in guilds. I get it, and I find myself doing that a lot as well and just PUG'ing. But that is a choice I have to make, and if I do decide on the convenience of the dungeon queue, I also have to accept that I am in a pool of literally anyone and everyone in the game. And they all have equal rights to the dungeon queue as I do. You take the good with the bad, and it is what it is.
There doesn't need to be any changes to the queue. There don't need to be set checks, or stat checks, or skill checks, or DPS pre-parses, or anything like that. There is already a solution to the issues of the dungeon finder: pre-made groups.
Either form a pre-made, or go into the dungeon queue and deal with the fact that nobody in this game owes you anything.
And most importantly remember at the end of the day, this is just a game. None of this matters. It is something done for leisure. Once people actually remember that, then this community will be so much better.
That is very much out of context mate. The problem is:
Poor with no skill or awareness dds that queue as tanks or healers. The problem are not people that know what to do.
Normal dungeons are easy - but not so much if your tank is level 1400cp dd with 10k damage and no idea what he is doing cause he spent last week online farming for cp.
People that queue for role that allows them to get in dungeon fast cause queuing as dd take to long but never actually learned the mechanics of the game.
The problem are NOT:
People that know what to do with understanding of the game or/and its mechanics. Or low level people that are learning and are willing to do so.
Normal dungeons are easy even with the fake roles. Unless it's like Moon Hunter Keep or something. But I don't see people fake tanking those.
And it's not really out of context, because the locks and checks that you are requesting - and have been requested in the past - will impact those who are learning and willing to just as much as the fakes that you are trying to punish.
You edited your post after I already commented.... I am not suggesting not allowing people to be creative... I am suggesting not letting people to queue as tank or heal if they have no idea about what to do. I am not suggesting to do it by locing them in 1 set or 1 skill or 1 weapon. This can be done in other creative ways. For example. someone who queues as tank in dungeon has all 'heavy armour' passives unlocked. This would stop low skill level people to queue as tanks and dd-s that are high enough to have these unlocked would know what to do. That would not limit people CP - cause you can be hight CP and only have 50 skill points unlocked. And in that case you would not spend them in passives you are not currently using. Its an idea - others might be better.
I'm sorry, but it's not a good one.
What if someone hasn't maxed out their heavy armor skills yet? What if they are re-building a character from one role to another, and building their character and learning the role? Or they haven't gotten all the skill points they need yet to max out their heavy armor passives? There could be a number of reasons why someone hasn't maxed out their heavy armor passives yet and are still more than capable of tanking said dungeon. This will hurt the learning tank just as much, if not more, as any fakes you are attempting to punish.
There is a better solution: Form your own group! Then you don't have to worry about it period.
That is such a tired and useless response which is constantly regurgitated every time someone has a legitimate complaint about the groupfinder, which is currently a total mess. No, we cant require perfect builds and 90k parses to queue, but there are a lot of options in the middle ground to encourage and perhaps enforce the notion that people perform the roles they queue for.
Sure good players can 3 or 4 DPS virtually all normal and a good chunk of vet content, but the trinity is there for a reason. It works and the game was designed around it. It especially works when you have groups of players without comms, different skill/knowledge levels, etc. Responses like this make it almost impossible to have a meaningful discussion about potential solutions to a very real problem.
It's only a "tired and useless response" because it forces you to be accountable for your own actions. It doesn't allow you to dictate how other people play or treat their characters, and it doesn't allow you to claim ownership over content.
Take accountability for *your choices* and realize that you are not entitled to anybody's performance, and they don't owe you a build that lives up to your standards.
Use the options you have available to have the experience that you want, or don't complain when you choose not to.
That makes zero sense, sorry to say. How can I use the option available to me to have the experience I want, when the primary game supported option for a random grouping is fundamentally flawed and prevents the experience that most people want, simply a relatively smooth and painless clear of a dungeon?
Too be honest, I really don't care about GF for personal use. I am capable of clearing all content and playing all roles at a high level. I have multiple guilds, and groups anytime I need to clear difficult content. I do however care about the overall health of ESO, and as a PVE focused MMO, the group finder is a big part of that.
You act like everyone one that complains about the current problem and poses solutions that might require some barebones requirement to queue is just another leet, entitled snob, but the reality is, there is another side of the coin.
Sure it is unreasonable to require specific gear, builds, or ridiculously high DPS requirements to queue, but its just as unreasonable, entitled and furthermore, wildly selfish, to take the play how you want attitude to the extreme and impose it on other players to their detriment in a public groupfinder. There is a middle ground here that ZOS needs to explore.
Dungeon queue isn't the primary tool for finding groups in the game. Dungeon queue didn't even *exist* in the game at launch, when you had to manually travel to the dungeon yourself and form a group at the doorsteps.
Dungeon queue is simply another tool.
The primary tool for grouping in MMO's has always been guilds and pre-formed groups.
ZOS doesn't *need* to explore anything. This game has existed for 7 years without any of these solutions from the forums, and in that time, it has become among the top MMO's in the industry. There is no *need* to do anything.
There are tools in the game to have the experience you want, even within the group finder. You can kick, or leave, if a group is not to your liking. I have done it many, many times in my time in ESO, when I have gotten a group that is not up to my standards. Whether it be a low-DPS who can't clear Bloodspawn in vSpindle 2, whether it has been the abundance of fake tanks / healers that I have encountered in my time, or anything in between. But one thing I have never done is feel entitled to the performance of random people and feel that they owe me an experience that is up to my standards. I don't know what is happening on the other side of the keyboard, and honestly, it's none of my business. Drop the group and move on. And I will gather a group from my guild if I am not up for risking the experiences I may have in a random.0 -
svendf✭✭✭✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »I agree that it needs to check. I think WoW and FF have something like that. 2 ways to fix is have requirments for tanking. Like 40k HP and at least 1 taunt ability slotted. However how ff and WoW does it is each class or spec has a certain role and you cant change the role. ESO lets people switch their own role which gives them too much power.
This could be fixed just by allowing a way to create and look for groups like WoW does. Again this is difficult because ESO allows so much freedom which isn't a bad thing.
I agree freedom is good but some are not good at handling freedom. Some people need some advice or guidens so they don´t ruin other groupmembers enjoyment.
Translation: They aren't using their freedom the way you want them to, so they should be forced to do things in the way that you want them to.
Why do peple join a group if they don´t wanna play as a groupmember ?0 -
Ken_Koerperich✭✭✭Noob here, but this is JMO...
Dungeon "Q" times shouldn't take forever.
Banished Cells for Undaunted Quest Line, waited 40 minutes. Drew a group of: 3 NightBlades, myself included, BUT, they were: CP Lv1700/CP Lv1247/CPLv6something.......First time "they" kicked me....Had to re"Q" and about 2 min later they accepted.
When I arrived, they had already killed the first boss, and were speed running.
Do you think I got to learn anything?? Nope, I barely had time to pickup all the "scrolls" required for Lore & the Drops as they blew through.
Yes I got it completed, but when "they" don't even EXPLAIN w*t*f you're supposed to be doing, none of the mechanics, it's a turn off. Let alone the "Q" time of 40 minutes just to be booted on the VERY FIRST Dungeon that you're supposed to "learn" on...WOWZA!
Really makes me NOT want to do them, but I do know from "reading" quest guides, that I will be forced into some of them for "said" lines.... I hope it goes smoother the farther/longer I'm in the game.
For the naysayer's, I just "joined" a guild, but they "seem" to be NON ACTIVE during my "sessions" as I've stated elsewhere, I'm a-crack of dawn player, 0600 .... So that leaves me very few options and the "Q" is my only recourse.
It should be tweaked, ie. 10 min no "Q" dump you and start over or just give up.
I mean, 40 min wait is kind of BAlogne...1 -
bzz86✭✭✭✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Maybe that is so... But people that want to tank would still be able to queue as tanks and learn. The dds that just want to run ahead can just do that in 4dds groups. End game tanks would still exist and that would not change.
If a new player enters the game wanting to be a tank main, and opportunities are taken away from them to learn how to be a tank, there will be less end game tanks. That's just a fact. I'm CP1800+, been playing over 5 years, and when I see in zone or even in guild chat "Random normal, LF 3 dps", I don't x up if I'm on my healer. I can do more dps than most dedicated dd's in a pug group and slot a bit of gear more dedicated to doing so, but it's off putting. I certainly wouldn't x up on one of my tanks as they can't out dps a dedicated dd. My tanks are end game tanks and carry around enough sets without trying to also be dd's because someone in guild finder needs me to fulfill their role. I can only imagine what it feels like to a new healer or tank. To make that a part of the guild finder, in my opinion, would only push more players to dd main and exacerbate the problem.
I can see your point. But seeing how little tanks already exist in game and how people dont want to heal anymore. having queues dedicated to 3dds or 4 dds would not change much and would make it simpler for people that want to play 'normal' way.
Doubt it would change anything.
The # of DD's in game compared to tanks and healers would mean there would still be a wait even for 4 DD queues, so they would still hit up the T/ H / 2 DD queue as tanks and healers to bypass it.
Nothing would really change. Except seeing 4 DD queues would probably give off the impression to newer gamers that tanks and healers are unnecessary.
Changing the queue won't solve the problem.
indeed. that is correct. this is why there needs to be a way to lock people to roles. or at least check they can do what they say they can .... .i do realize its near impossible.
No, there shouldn't be checks or locks.
If we go that route, we might as well just take away any creative freedom people have to build their own characters.
People want all these checks and requirements for roles. The game may as well just eliminate builds altogether. No more variations on roles or classes, just make character creation simple:
*Tank
*Stamina DPS
*Magicka DPS
*Healer
No more Nightblade, Dragon Knight, Necromancer, Sorcerer, etc...
Each new class comes pre-equipped with the necessary skills; I.E. Tank has "Taunt", "Resolve", "Maim", "Breach / Fracture", "Crowd Control", "Heal"
There's no more gear farming, each new class comes pre-equipped with the sets that have been deemed "meta" and needed for content. I.E. Tank has "Alkosh" and "Yolnakhriin" already pre-equipped. No farming it, and no chance to change up. They automatically have "Crusher" enchants and "Reinforced" traits.
There's no more attributes. Each class automatically has their relevant attribute pool maxed out to 64. I.E. Tank has 64 health automatically added.
There's no more Mundus. Each class gets their necessary Mundus stone automatically added.
No race selection. Tanks are now automatically a Nord, stamina DPS are now automatically an Orc, magicka DPS are now automatically a High Elf, Healers are now automatically Argonian.
This is why I can't stand "meta" in the first place, because the meta aspires to turn the game into that. And having role checks and role locks are another step in that direction.
This is the same thing I said in the other thread from like a week ago. Nobody is entitled to other people's characters or performances. You are not entitled to other people performing up to your expectations, or building their characters to your standards. I personally will never run meta sets that other people tell me to wear or should wear, I will not let another person dictate *my* character, and nobody owes me their character build to match my expectations.
The fix to the dungeon finder is simple: Pre-made groups. If you are going to join the group finder queue, you are jumping into a queue with anyone and everyone who is playing the game. And everyone has equal right to the content.
On the same way that you are not entitled to anyone's builds or performances, they are not entitled to your time. If you don't like the group dynamic, you are free to leave the group.
I say this as a tank main who gets just as frustrated as anyone by getting groups with DPS in vet DLC dungeons that can't do the amount of damage necessary, or don't know mechanics and can't be bothered to learn because all they understand is dummy parsing.
I say this as someone who also rolls DPS and healers and hates getting fake tanks that can't aggro a mob for anything, and make the runs more tedious than they need to be all because they are greedy and want to cut the line.
I say this as someone who doesn't always have the energy to explain mechanics every single time I enter a DLC dungeon.
I get just as frustrated as anyone.
But one thing I never do is feel entitled to someone else's performance. They don't owe me a knowledge of a dungeon that they may be running for the first time. They don't owe me high DPS #'s when they may still be learning their rotation. They don't owe me set combinations that they may not have been able to collect yet, or may not want for their character because those sets aren't fun for them.
If I am not in the mood to deal with any of that, I have a simple solution. I can create my own group. I can ask in my guild, I can reach out to real life friends who play, I can form my own group of people who have all that stuff already if that's what I want. And I get it, sometimes it's easier to just hit the queue than it is to start asking around in guilds. I get it, and I find myself doing that a lot as well and just PUG'ing. But that is a choice I have to make, and if I do decide on the convenience of the dungeon queue, I also have to accept that I am in a pool of literally anyone and everyone in the game. And they all have equal rights to the dungeon queue as I do. You take the good with the bad, and it is what it is.
There doesn't need to be any changes to the queue. There don't need to be set checks, or stat checks, or skill checks, or DPS pre-parses, or anything like that. There is already a solution to the issues of the dungeon finder: pre-made groups.
Either form a pre-made, or go into the dungeon queue and deal with the fact that nobody in this game owes you anything.
And most importantly remember at the end of the day, this is just a game. None of this matters. It is something done for leisure. Once people actually remember that, then this community will be so much better.
That is very much out of context mate. The problem is:
Poor with no skill or awareness dds that queue as tanks or healers. The problem are not people that know what to do.
Normal dungeons are easy - but not so much if your tank is level 1400cp dd with 10k damage and no idea what he is doing cause he spent last week online farming for cp.
People that queue for role that allows them to get in dungeon fast cause queuing as dd take to long but never actually learned the mechanics of the game.
The problem are NOT:
People that know what to do with understanding of the game or/and its mechanics. Or low level people that are learning and are willing to do so.
Normal dungeons are easy even with the fake roles. Unless it's like Moon Hunter Keep or something. But I don't see people fake tanking those.
And it's not really out of context, because the locks and checks that you are requesting - and have been requested in the past - will impact those who are learning and willing to just as much as the fakes that you are trying to punish.
You edited your post after I already commented.... I am not suggesting not allowing people to be creative... I am suggesting not letting people to queue as tank or heal if they have no idea about what to do. I am not suggesting to do it by locing them in 1 set or 1 skill or 1 weapon. This can be done in other creative ways. For example. someone who queues as tank in dungeon has all 'heavy armour' passives unlocked. This would stop low skill level people to queue as tanks and dd-s that are high enough to have these unlocked would know what to do. That would not limit people CP - cause you can be hight CP and only have 50 skill points unlocked. And in that case you would not spend them in passives you are not currently using. Its an idea - others might be better.
I'm sorry, but it's not a good one.
What if someone hasn't maxed out their heavy armor skills yet? What if they are re-building a character from one role to another, and building their character and learning the role? Or they haven't gotten all the skill points they need yet to max out their heavy armor passives? There could be a number of reasons why someone hasn't maxed out their heavy armor passives yet and are still more than capable of tanking said dungeon. This will hurt the learning tank just as much, if not more, as any fakes you are attempting to punish.
There is a better solution: Form your own group! Then you don't have to worry about it period.
That is such a tired and useless response which is constantly regurgitated every time someone has a legitimate complaint about the groupfinder, which is currently a total mess. No, we cant require perfect builds and 90k parses to queue, but there are a lot of options in the middle ground to encourage and perhaps enforce the notion that people perform the roles they queue for.
Sure good players can 3 or 4 DPS virtually all normal and a good chunk of vet content, but the trinity is there for a reason. It works and the game was designed around it. It especially works when you have groups of players without comms, different skill/knowledge levels, etc. Responses like this make it almost impossible to have a meaningful discussion about potential solutions to a very real problem.
It's only a "tired and useless response" because it forces you to be accountable for your own actions. It doesn't allow you to dictate how other people play or treat their characters, and it doesn't allow you to claim ownership over content.
Take accountability for *your choices* and realize that you are not entitled to anybody's performance, and they don't owe you a build that lives up to your standards.
Use the options you have available to have the experience that you want, or don't complain when you choose not to.
We are not talking about builds. What @Oreyn_Bearclaw said stands, and if you read what others and myself said earlier you will understand. How can you say its our choice when we dont have a choice if we want to use the tool. The only choice is to use or not to use it. Further the design of the tool itself is a problem. Nobody wants to force their opinion down on you - but I do not think you see our point. Have a search around the forum, please.
What you said ' Use the options you have available to have the experience that you want, or don't complain when you choose not to.' is very important. We use the options we have and dont have the experience we want, we complain cause we choose to use the tool that was given to us. The tool was given in good faith and created with 'trinity' in mind. It is clearly broken.
I understand your points just fine. But they are wrong.
1. There is no system of checks that you can implement that *won't* hurt innocent players who are either A) utilizing creative freedom or learning and developing their builds, just as much, if not moreso, than the "fakes" you want to punish.
2. There is a method, in game, that will guarantee that you get the experience you want, which is forming pre-made groups with people who want to play the same way. The dungeon finder queue is a tool to play the game, *not* a tool to have the experience that *you* dictate. The dungeon finder tool is specifically made to pool you with literally anyone and everyone in the game world. An experience or an outcome, by definition, cannot be guaranteed when you use such a tool, and you are not entitled to one. The dungeon queue is simply a tool to get you into the dungeon. If you want a particular experience, you will have to make a group of people who will give you that experience.
This is not a hard concept. If you use the dungeon finder queue, you are doing so knowing that you have 0 guaranteed outcome or experience. If you want standards imposed on your group, then it is *your* job to create your own group that adheres to those standards, *NOT* the job of the game to dictate those standards upon literally everyone else in the game.
This is a non-issue.
You clearly do not understand what others and myself are saying, and simply repeating the same thing.0 -
bzz86✭✭✭✭Ken_Koerperich wrote: »Noob here, but this is JMO...
Dungeon "Q" times shouldn't take forever.
Banished Cells for Undaunted Quest Line, waited 40 minutes. Drew a group of: 3 NightBlades, myself included, BUT, they were: CP Lv1700/CP Lv1247/CPLv6something.......First time "they" kicked me....Had to re"Q" and about 2 min later they accepted.
When I arrived, they had already killed the first boss, and were speed running.
Do you think I got to learn anything?? Nope, I barely had time to pickup all the "scrolls" required for Lore & the Drops as they blew through.
Yes I got it completed, but when "they" don't even EXPLAIN w*t*f you're supposed to be doing, none of the mechanics, it's a turn off. Let alone the "Q" time of 40 minutes just to be booted on the VERY FIRST Dungeon that you're supposed to "learn" on...WOWZA!
Really makes me NOT want to do them, but I do know from "reading" quest guides, that I will be forced into some of them for "said" lines.... I hope it goes smoother the farther/longer I'm in the game.
For the naysayer's, I just "joined" a guild, but they "seem" to be NON ACTIVE during my "sessions" as I've stated elsewhere, I'm a-crack of dawn player, 0600 .... So that leaves me very few options and the "Q" is my only recourse.
It should be tweaked, ie. 10 min no "Q" dump you and start over or just give up.
I mean, 40 min wait is kind of BAlogne...
This indeed is sad ;/ The tool should try to group people that want to learn. And yes the dd queue is extremaly long I've been there ;/ Hope you will have better time down the line! The game is really fun, and many people are nice. Sometimes on high level people just want to get on with things to do something else.0 -
bzz86✭✭✭✭amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »Maybe that is so... But people that want to tank would still be able to queue as tanks and learn. The dds that just want to run ahead can just do that in 4dds groups. End game tanks would still exist and that would not change.
If a new player enters the game wanting to be a tank main, and opportunities are taken away from them to learn how to be a tank, there will be less end game tanks. That's just a fact. I'm CP1800+, been playing over 5 years, and when I see in zone or even in guild chat "Random normal, LF 3 dps", I don't x up if I'm on my healer. I can do more dps than most dedicated dd's in a pug group and slot a bit of gear more dedicated to doing so, but it's off putting. I certainly wouldn't x up on one of my tanks as they can't out dps a dedicated dd. My tanks are end game tanks and carry around enough sets without trying to also be dd's because someone in guild finder needs me to fulfill their role. I can only imagine what it feels like to a new healer or tank. To make that a part of the guild finder, in my opinion, would only push more players to dd main and exacerbate the problem.
I can see your point. But seeing how little tanks already exist in game and how people dont want to heal anymore. having queues dedicated to 3dds or 4 dds would not change much and would make it simpler for people that want to play 'normal' way.
Doubt it would change anything.
The # of DD's in game compared to tanks and healers would mean there would still be a wait even for 4 DD queues, so they would still hit up the T/ H / 2 DD queue as tanks and healers to bypass it.
Nothing would really change. Except seeing 4 DD queues would probably give off the impression to newer gamers that tanks and healers are unnecessary.
Changing the queue won't solve the problem.
indeed. that is correct. this is why there needs to be a way to lock people to roles. or at least check they can do what they say they can .... .i do realize its near impossible.
No, there shouldn't be checks or locks.
If we go that route, we might as well just take away any creative freedom people have to build their own characters.
People want all these checks and requirements for roles. The game may as well just eliminate builds altogether. No more variations on roles or classes, just make character creation simple:
*Tank
*Stamina DPS
*Magicka DPS
*Healer
No more Nightblade, Dragon Knight, Necromancer, Sorcerer, etc...
Each new class comes pre-equipped with the necessary skills; I.E. Tank has "Taunt", "Resolve", "Maim", "Breach / Fracture", "Crowd Control", "Heal"
There's no more gear farming, each new class comes pre-equipped with the sets that have been deemed "meta" and needed for content. I.E. Tank has "Alkosh" and "Yolnakhriin" already pre-equipped. No farming it, and no chance to change up. They automatically have "Crusher" enchants and "Reinforced" traits.
There's no more attributes. Each class automatically has their relevant attribute pool maxed out to 64. I.E. Tank has 64 health automatically added.
There's no more Mundus. Each class gets their necessary Mundus stone automatically added.
No race selection. Tanks are now automatically a Nord, stamina DPS are now automatically an Orc, magicka DPS are now automatically a High Elf, Healers are now automatically Argonian.
This is why I can't stand "meta" in the first place, because the meta aspires to turn the game into that. And having role checks and role locks are another step in that direction.
This is the same thing I said in the other thread from like a week ago. Nobody is entitled to other people's characters or performances. You are not entitled to other people performing up to your expectations, or building their characters to your standards. I personally will never run meta sets that other people tell me to wear or should wear, I will not let another person dictate *my* character, and nobody owes me their character build to match my expectations.
The fix to the dungeon finder is simple: Pre-made groups. If you are going to join the group finder queue, you are jumping into a queue with anyone and everyone who is playing the game. And everyone has equal right to the content.
On the same way that you are not entitled to anyone's builds or performances, they are not entitled to your time. If you don't like the group dynamic, you are free to leave the group.
I say this as a tank main who gets just as frustrated as anyone by getting groups with DPS in vet DLC dungeons that can't do the amount of damage necessary, or don't know mechanics and can't be bothered to learn because all they understand is dummy parsing.
I say this as someone who also rolls DPS and healers and hates getting fake tanks that can't aggro a mob for anything, and make the runs more tedious than they need to be all because they are greedy and want to cut the line.
I say this as someone who doesn't always have the energy to explain mechanics every single time I enter a DLC dungeon.
I get just as frustrated as anyone.
But one thing I never do is feel entitled to someone else's performance. They don't owe me a knowledge of a dungeon that they may be running for the first time. They don't owe me high DPS #'s when they may still be learning their rotation. They don't owe me set combinations that they may not have been able to collect yet, or may not want for their character because those sets aren't fun for them.
If I am not in the mood to deal with any of that, I have a simple solution. I can create my own group. I can ask in my guild, I can reach out to real life friends who play, I can form my own group of people who have all that stuff already if that's what I want. And I get it, sometimes it's easier to just hit the queue than it is to start asking around in guilds. I get it, and I find myself doing that a lot as well and just PUG'ing. But that is a choice I have to make, and if I do decide on the convenience of the dungeon queue, I also have to accept that I am in a pool of literally anyone and everyone in the game. And they all have equal rights to the dungeon queue as I do. You take the good with the bad, and it is what it is.
There doesn't need to be any changes to the queue. There don't need to be set checks, or stat checks, or skill checks, or DPS pre-parses, or anything like that. There is already a solution to the issues of the dungeon finder: pre-made groups.
Either form a pre-made, or go into the dungeon queue and deal with the fact that nobody in this game owes you anything.
And most importantly remember at the end of the day, this is just a game. None of this matters. It is something done for leisure. Once people actually remember that, then this community will be so much better.
That is very much out of context mate. The problem is:
Poor with no skill or awareness dds that queue as tanks or healers. The problem are not people that know what to do.
Normal dungeons are easy - but not so much if your tank is level 1400cp dd with 10k damage and no idea what he is doing cause he spent last week online farming for cp.
People that queue for role that allows them to get in dungeon fast cause queuing as dd take to long but never actually learned the mechanics of the game.
The problem are NOT:
People that know what to do with understanding of the game or/and its mechanics. Or low level people that are learning and are willing to do so.
Normal dungeons are easy even with the fake roles. Unless it's like Moon Hunter Keep or something. But I don't see people fake tanking those.
And it's not really out of context, because the locks and checks that you are requesting - and have been requested in the past - will impact those who are learning and willing to just as much as the fakes that you are trying to punish.
You edited your post after I already commented.... I am not suggesting not allowing people to be creative... I am suggesting not letting people to queue as tank or heal if they have no idea about what to do. I am not suggesting to do it by locing them in 1 set or 1 skill or 1 weapon. This can be done in other creative ways. For example. someone who queues as tank in dungeon has all 'heavy armour' passives unlocked. This would stop low skill level people to queue as tanks and dd-s that are high enough to have these unlocked would know what to do. That would not limit people CP - cause you can be hight CP and only have 50 skill points unlocked. And in that case you would not spend them in passives you are not currently using. Its an idea - others might be better.
I'm sorry, but it's not a good one.
What if someone hasn't maxed out their heavy armor skills yet? What if they are re-building a character from one role to another, and building their character and learning the role? Or they haven't gotten all the skill points they need yet to max out their heavy armor passives? There could be a number of reasons why someone hasn't maxed out their heavy armor passives yet and are still more than capable of tanking said dungeon. This will hurt the learning tank just as much, if not more, as any fakes you are attempting to punish.
There is a better solution: Form your own group! Then you don't have to worry about it period.
That is such a tired and useless response which is constantly regurgitated every time someone has a legitimate complaint about the groupfinder, which is currently a total mess. No, we cant require perfect builds and 90k parses to queue, but there are a lot of options in the middle ground to encourage and perhaps enforce the notion that people perform the roles they queue for.
Sure good players can 3 or 4 DPS virtually all normal and a good chunk of vet content, but the trinity is there for a reason. It works and the game was designed around it. It especially works when you have groups of players without comms, different skill/knowledge levels, etc. Responses like this make it almost impossible to have a meaningful discussion about potential solutions to a very real problem.
It's only a "tired and useless response" because it forces you to be accountable for your own actions. It doesn't allow you to dictate how other people play or treat their characters, and it doesn't allow you to claim ownership over content.
Take accountability for *your choices* and realize that you are not entitled to anybody's performance, and they don't owe you a build that lives up to your standards.
Use the options you have available to have the experience that you want, or don't complain when you choose not to.
We are not talking about builds. What @Oreyn_Bearclaw said stands, and if you read what others and myself said earlier you will understand. How can you say its our choice when we dont have a choice if we want to use the tool. The only choice is to use or not to use it. Further the design of the tool itself is a problem. Nobody wants to force their opinion down on you - but I do not think you see our point. Have a search around the forum, please.
What you said ' Use the options you have available to have the experience that you want, or don't complain when you choose not to.' is very important. We use the options we have and dont have the experience we want, we complain cause we choose to use the tool that was given to us. The tool was given in good faith and created with 'trinity' in mind. It is clearly broken.
I understand your points just fine. But they are wrong.
1. There is no system of checks that you can implement that *won't* hurt innocent players who are either A) utilizing creative freedom or learning and developing their builds, just as much, if not moreso, than the "fakes" you want to punish.
2. There is a method, in game, that will guarantee that you get the experience you want, which is forming pre-made groups with people who want to play the same way. The dungeon finder queue is a tool to play the game, *not* a tool to have the experience that *you* dictate. The dungeon finder tool is specifically made to pool you with literally anyone and everyone in the game world. An experience or an outcome, by definition, cannot be guaranteed when you use such a tool, and you are not entitled to one. The dungeon queue is simply a tool to get you into the dungeon. If you want a particular experience, you will have to make a group of people who will give you that experience.
This is not a hard concept. If you use the dungeon finder queue, you are doing so knowing that you have 0 guaranteed outcome or experience. If you want standards imposed on your group, then it is *your* job to create your own group that adheres to those standards, *NOT* the job of the game to dictate those standards upon literally everyone else in the game.
This is a non-issue.
You clearly do not understand what others and myself are saying, and simply repeating the same thing.
Oh and also you are contradicting yourself fair often I.E.:
"There are tools in the game to have the experience you want, even within the group finder. You can kick, or leave, if a group is not to your liking. I have done it many, many times in my time in ESO, when I have gotten a group that is not up to my standards." (...) "But one thing I have never done is feel entitled to the performance of random people and feel that they owe me an experience that is up to my standards."
Mate this is not about fake tank or fake healer or the fact that something is not up to standards or freedom or builds.... The tool is broken and that is is! Ok, it was not there some years ago, but you know what? Changes can be good, and if they are here some people might want to use them. You do not want changes - fine. None of us wants to force anything neither to you or ZOS or anyone else. We just want to say what we think same as you do.Edited by bzz86 on June 23, 2021 6:01AM0