Dungeon Finder (please fix it)

bzz86 · June 2021

I am aware people talked about it before and I am aware some do not mind. But there goes my rant:

Today I have queued for random normal with my main who is a healer. Most of the time when I get in there is no tank and just 3 dd-s, which I do not mind as long as they know what is happening and have at least some damage between them. Today however was a little different instead I had 3 tanks..... It took forever to get anywhere. To be honest I would understand if they were below CP level and new to the game, but they were over 1000cp each. I left before the 2nd boss cause this took so long I run our of patience.

I went to my tank alt and queued for a random normal. I get in and I get 2dds and the healer is a A TANK! My alt is not well geared and does not have enough skills to heal everybody... 1st larger pack of adds that were pulled by the other tank and he dies... He then says that I need to learn how to tank. I just ignored that and continued..... 1st boss he dies again and a dd with him. I rez them, he dies again.... Just left him there and killed the boss. The 'healer' then proceeds to insult me cause I do not know how to tank, I reacted and asked him to at least stop slotting taunt. No answer and we continue... 2nd boss, he pulls, taunts, dies again and the insults follow. He was level 900+ cp and one of the other people present just vote kicked him.

I go to my healer alt and queue for RND. Got in, seen its one of the base game dungeons and thought to myself 'at least it will be easy'.... Well now, wouldn't that be nice. Tank was a dd at 700cp with basically lowest damage in the group. One of low level dd-s was taunting constantly, and the last dd was just 'ok' (which is fine). I ignored the 700cp dude despite him poorly pulling and doing so little damage my heals were aggro-ing more. On last boss I got in, boss pop he runs in behind me, pulls and the doors close. I lost my patience and told him that he is 'has no brain from the start'. Yeah I know not very nice but I had enough at this point. Then he says I pulled the boss, so I explained how it works, he continues his rant about how I did it... Well I let us both wipe cause it would take ages with his damage and my poor alt. The rest of the group gets in we kill it. He then says that I am the first toxic kid he runs into on ESO leaves the group and thats done.

I mean please do not get me wrong - I do not mind running dungeons with 3 dds when I am tank or heal. I just dont care as long as they can do what needs to be done and dont moan. I dont even mind people using Pale Order as long as they can do damage and dont complain when they die. What I mind is the fact that there are so many people these days that farm cp to higher level with no idea what they are doing, or queuing as 'whatever is the fastest' to get in dungeons and have no idea what to do or where to go.

ZOS really needs to address dungeon queues somehow. Let people choose to to queue with 3 or even 4 dds, I would not mind that. In some cases I will actually find it great. Others can queue T/H/2DD. There just needs to be some sort of system that checks you actually are what you say you are.

The reporting system in game is also 'bs'. There is no point in reporting someone. Nothing ever happens to these people. Someone can call you 100 things in the dungeon or even threaten you all you will get from ZOS is: 1. that person will get ignored by you in game, 2. 'we take this seriously...'.

Thank you for reading this far. I just needed to rant a little to get my annoyment out.

Grandchamp1989 · June 2021

I only have your side of the story, but based on what you wrote that 2nd encounter with the healer tank sounds like griefing.

He seems to know you're the official tank in the dungeon and still he pulls and steals taunt from you. And given he's the "healer" everyone dies since he's on a fake role.

He would get in faster if he just qued as Tank so honestly it just looks like griefing. An excuse to be.. irregular.. online.

josiahva · June 2021

bzz86 wrote: »

What I mind is the fact that there are so many people these days that farm cp to higher level with no idea what they are doing

This is the root of the problem. Every single CP I have(1260 or whatever) was earned at a MUCH slower rate than most of the players running around now....all of them were earned at the slowest rate at the time(not sure about this last patch...was over 1200 by then but not sure if it gets slower above 1800). Regardless, I never grind for experience....with the raising of the CP cap I have started using my stockpile of crown experience scrolls, but its not consistent. All you ever see is people trying to get to max CP ASAP, as if it matters without the experience of learning lessons the hard way. I was in vFV with some 300ish CP DPS, and this guy had only been playing a matter of days....I remember when 300CP would have taken MONTHS of fairly heavy playing. For that matter, I remember how long it took just to get to VR16 and how tedious leveling alts was with VR not being shared between toons.

Whats even funnier is that all of them are so sure what the "best" sets and skills are that they seem unable to comprehend that any given set is only good as long as its appropriate for the content you are doing. You can parse 100k on a dummy all day long...but that doesn't mean anything if you can't stay alive more than 20% of the time.

Doc45 · June 2021

bzz86 wrote: »

There just needs to be some sort of system that checks you actually are what you say you are.

Agreed, and there are multiple threads with people asking for that to occur. It seems to be getting worse. I queued for a vet dungeon tonight, a fairly easy pledge (WS), and there was a fake tank. Their health was 28k, so I figured they at least wouldn't go down easily, and they were CP1200 so I had hope they knew what they were doing.

When they started off with "Skip this first boss. Skip adds. Drag 'em to x," I thought it was annoying, especially with two CP50-CP200 players in the group that maybe hadn't done the dungeon countless times. However, it also gave the impression they were maybe familiar with tanking, albeit one of those tanks that thinks dragging as much as possible to one spot makes them a good tank even when it often results in losing aggro and having those behind attacked or, best case scenario, the pull results in no deaths but the npcs that were aggroed and not killed result in the group remaining in combat and unable to proceed through a door. Slow is smooth; smooth is fast.

We got through things ok despite the fake tank, got to final boss, read the scroll as it was a pledge, and realized the tank wasn't taunting. With the other two saying, "Do we have a tank?", the response from the fake tank was "Just kite the boss around". So now the three of us had to compensate for them skipping the queue, dps was low, and the boss kept getting dragged out of any dots. We wiped, and I asked the fake tank, "Do you have a taunt?". Answer: "No, does the healer have one?". I was the healer and responded, "I didn't queue as a tank". I do have a taunt, but if that boss takes awhile to go down, stamina runs out. It's a lot of pressure on a healer in HM. I started a vote to kick after that, which went through, and after waiting a few minutes for a tank replacement, decided to just go with Bastian. Turns out Bastian did a better job than the fake tank/selfish dd that wanted to save time skipping the queue and instead cost the three of us that got stuck with 'em time and frustration.

From what I've seen in the forums, the majority of players are opposed to fake tanks in pugs especially in dungeons in which the group would benefit from the fake tank at least having a taunt (though it's still frustrating as a healer to have to accommodate them by having my focus shift to keeping a low health fake tank alive). It can feel a little awkward to vote kick someone, but, without a system in place to check the person is in a role they're capable of, the system becomes the members of the group witnessing the behavior of others within the group. In my opinion, players should have some ability to adapt, give others the benefit of the doubt, and assist those learning. But when it's clear someone is completely selfish and hindering the other members of the group, never hesitate to vote to kick. That's the best way to discourage the behavior.

Agenericname · June 2021

Doc45 wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

There just needs to be some sort of system that checks you actually are what you say you are.

Agreed, and there are multiple threads with people asking for that to occur. It seems to be getting worse. I queued for a vet dungeon tonight, a fairly easy pledge (WS), and there was a fake tank. Their health was 28k, so I figured they at least wouldn't go down easily, and they were CP1200 so I had hope they knew what they were doing.

When they started off with "Skip this first boss. Skip adds. Drag 'em to x," I thought it was annoying, especially with two CP50-CP200 players in the group that maybe hadn't done the dungeon countless times. However, it also gave the impression they were maybe familiar with tanking, albeit one of those tanks that thinks dragging as much as possible to one spot makes them a good tank even when it often results in losing aggro and having those behind attacked or, best case scenario, the pull results in no deaths but the npcs that were aggroed and not killed result in the group remaining in combat and unable to proceed through a door. Slow is smooth; smooth is fast.

We got through things ok despite the fake tank, got to final boss, read the scroll as it was a pledge, and realized the tank wasn't taunting. With the other two saying, "Do we have a tank?", the response from the fake tank was "Just kite the boss around". So now the three of us had to compensate for them skipping the queue, dps was low, and the boss kept getting dragged out of any dots. We wiped, and I asked the fake tank, "Do you have a taunt?". Answer: "No, does the healer have one?". I was the healer and responded, "I didn't queue as a tank". I do have a taunt, but if that boss takes awhile to go down, stamina runs out. It's a lot of pressure on a healer in HM. I started a vote to kick after that, which went through, and after waiting a few minutes for a tank replacement, decided to just go with Bastian. Turns out Bastian did a better job than the fake tank/selfish dd that wanted to save time skipping the queue and instead cost the three of us that got stuck with 'em time and frustration.

From what I've seen in the forums, the majority of players are opposed to fake tanks in pugs especially in dungeons in which the group would benefit from the fake tank at least having a taunt (though it's still frustrating as a healer to have to accommodate them by having my focus shift to keeping a low health fake tank alive). It can feel a little awkward to vote kick someone, but, without a system in place to check the person is in a role they're capable of, the system becomes the members of the group witnessing the behavior of others within the group. In my opinion, players should have some ability to adapt, give others the benefit of the doubt, and assist those learning. But when it's clear someone is completely selfish and hindering the other members of the group, never hesitate to vote to kick. That's the best way to discourage the behavior.

There often are numerous requests for this. Fortunately for most tanks, they're ignored or not acted upon.

Fake tanks fill a vacuum. If there were enough willing to queue, this would all be irrelevant. So any solution needs to be one that encourages real tanks to use the queue. Most of the suggestions fail miserably at that.

bzz86 · June 2021

Agenericname wrote: »

Doc45 wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

There just needs to be some sort of system that checks you actually are what you say you are.

Agreed, and there are multiple threads with people asking for that to occur. It seems to be getting worse. I queued for a vet dungeon tonight, a fairly easy pledge (WS), and there was a fake tank. Their health was 28k, so I figured they at least wouldn't go down easily, and they were CP1200 so I had hope they knew what they were doing.

When they started off with "Skip this first boss. Skip adds. Drag 'em to x," I thought it was annoying, especially with two CP50-CP200 players in the group that maybe hadn't done the dungeon countless times. However, it also gave the impression they were maybe familiar with tanking, albeit one of those tanks that thinks dragging as much as possible to one spot makes them a good tank even when it often results in losing aggro and having those behind attacked or, best case scenario, the pull results in no deaths but the npcs that were aggroed and not killed result in the group remaining in combat and unable to proceed through a door. Slow is smooth; smooth is fast.

We got through things ok despite the fake tank, got to final boss, read the scroll as it was a pledge, and realized the tank wasn't taunting. With the other two saying, "Do we have a tank?", the response from the fake tank was "Just kite the boss around". So now the three of us had to compensate for them skipping the queue, dps was low, and the boss kept getting dragged out of any dots. We wiped, and I asked the fake tank, "Do you have a taunt?". Answer: "No, does the healer have one?". I was the healer and responded, "I didn't queue as a tank". I do have a taunt, but if that boss takes awhile to go down, stamina runs out. It's a lot of pressure on a healer in HM. I started a vote to kick after that, which went through, and after waiting a few minutes for a tank replacement, decided to just go with Bastian. Turns out Bastian did a better job than the fake tank/selfish dd that wanted to save time skipping the queue and instead cost the three of us that got stuck with 'em time and frustration.

From what I've seen in the forums, the majority of players are opposed to fake tanks in pugs especially in dungeons in which the group would benefit from the fake tank at least having a taunt (though it's still frustrating as a healer to have to accommodate them by having my focus shift to keeping a low health fake tank alive). It can feel a little awkward to vote kick someone, but, without a system in place to check the person is in a role they're capable of, the system becomes the members of the group witnessing the behavior of others within the group. In my opinion, players should have some ability to adapt, give others the benefit of the doubt, and assist those learning. But when it's clear someone is completely selfish and hindering the other members of the group, never hesitate to vote to kick. That's the best way to discourage the behavior.

There often are numerous requests for this. Fortunately for most tanks, they're ignored or not acted upon.

Fake tanks fill a vacuum. If there were enough willing to queue, this would all be irrelevant. So any solution needs to be one that encourages real tanks to use the queue. Most of the suggestions fail miserably at that.

That is probably true as well. One option would be to give people additional queue options 3dd/1h, 3dd/1t/, 4dd, and what we have now 1t,1h,2dd. It is also a fact that majority (not all) people do not like to be tanks or healers and rather choose dd as a way to play. It might be more the fact that there are less tanks not that less tanks want to do tank ;-)

Doc45 · June 2021

I have four tanks, and when I come as tank I want to tank. When a dd runs ahead and aggros, even if they're capable of staying alive, it's disrepectful and often creates chaos that's unnecessary. When a tank is able to do their job and dps is low or mechanics aren't known, the tank is often put into the role of becoming the teacher. Most players do, in fact, choose dd as a way to play, and many of those are ignorant as to what a tank or healer can provide resulting in a common misunderstanding that support roles aren't valuable. I'd argue even if it's for FG1, if it's a pug, a tank has to be able to learn to tank so they can feel comfortable moving onto vet DLC trials and dungeons. Options like 3dd/1h or 4dd will just result in less end game tanks.

josiahva · June 2021

Doc45 wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

There just needs to be some sort of system that checks you actually are what you say you are.

Agreed, and there are multiple threads with people asking for that to occur. It seems to be getting worse. I queued for a vet dungeon tonight, a fairly easy pledge (WS), and there was a fake tank. Their health was 28k, so I figured they at least wouldn't go down easily, and they were CP1200 so I had hope they knew what they were doing.

When they started off with "Skip this first boss. Skip adds. Drag 'em to x," I thought it was annoying, especially with two CP50-CP200 players in the group that maybe hadn't done the dungeon countless times. However, it also gave the impression they were maybe familiar with tanking, albeit one of those tanks that thinks dragging as much as possible to one spot makes them a good tank even when it often results in losing aggro and having those behind attacked or, best case scenario, the pull results in no deaths but the npcs that were aggroed and not killed result in the group remaining in combat and unable to proceed through a door. Slow is smooth; smooth is fast.

We got through things ok despite the fake tank, got to final boss, read the scroll as it was a pledge, and realized the tank wasn't taunting. With the other two saying, "Do we have a tank?", the response from the fake tank was "Just kite the boss around". So now the three of us had to compensate for them skipping the queue, dps was low, and the boss kept getting dragged out of any dots. We wiped, and I asked the fake tank, "Do you have a taunt?". Answer: "No, does the healer have one?". I was the healer and responded, "I didn't queue as a tank". I do have a taunt, but if that boss takes awhile to go down, stamina runs out. It's a lot of pressure on a healer in HM. I started a vote to kick after that, which went through, and after waiting a few minutes for a tank replacement, decided to just go with Bastian. Turns out Bastian did a better job than the fake tank/selfish dd that wanted to save time skipping the queue and instead cost the three of us that got stuck with 'em time and frustration.

From what I've seen in the forums, the majority of players are opposed to fake tanks in pugs especially in dungeons in which the group would benefit from the fake tank at least having a taunt (though it's still frustrating as a healer to have to accommodate them by having my focus shift to keeping a low health fake tank alive). It can feel a little awkward to vote kick someone, but, without a system in place to check the person is in a role they're capable of, the system becomes the members of the group witnessing the behavior of others within the group. In my opinion, players should have some ability to adapt, give others the benefit of the doubt, and assist those learning. But when it's clear someone is completely selfish and hindering the other members of the group, never hesitate to vote to kick. That's the best way to discourage the behavior.

You are right...the best way to discourage the behavior is vote-to-kick.

There would be zero point to requiring any specific thing to do a role. As an example, for a lot of dungeons(especially if group DPS falls below a certain threshold) I use my off-DPS tank setup...this setup is still tough enough for about 85% of the vet DLC dungeons...but the way I grab group aggro is to run in and layer down a LOT of AOE and DoTs....as long as the DPS let me run in first, everything aggros on me for abut 5-6 seconds...during that time I am dragging any ranged ads with chains...by the time I am done with that if the DPS are doing more damage than me(sadly its often not the case), I will start to lose aggro and will start to taunt ads that are turning away then. On running into the pack I do still of course taunt any ad that is actually a real threat. There are many times on a trash pack I don't even have to use a taunt at all to keep the aggro of the entire pack. The same does not hold true for a boss of course and I always do have a taunt on my front bar to taunt anything needed at any time(and chains on my back bar, which is a pseudo-taunt, very few enemies it doesn't aggro for 3-4 seconds or so).

The point is that this "beserker" type of tanking is not classical, but can still be very effective if done right and if I wanted to, I could build a tank with no taunt AT ALL beyond chains(chains is free if the enemy isn't pulled to you, and there are tricks that you can do with it like make an enemy play monkey in the middle by aggroing it with chains and then letting it re-aggro on the DPS, over and over again). Not sure why I would want to do that, but maybe there is a combination of sets that could take advantage of such a build that doesn't have space for a taunt.

Generally on my tank, I keep enough sets in inventory that with the Dressing Room add-on I can easily tailor the build to compensate for any weak spots in the group...I can go off-DPS or off-heals as needed....the other day I was tanking vCT and for whatever reason the healer had to leave at the last boss, so I slotted Battalion Defender, Redistributor, a resto staff back bar, and echoing vigor, with that I was able to keep the DPS healed until the queued healer showed up halfway through the fight....of course that is a severe resource drain and it makes it very easy for me to make a mistake in that particular fight but I think with some practice and being a bit more conservative I could have off-healed the entire fight while tanking without issue. Sometimes people just can't see past their role to fill in for whatever else is needed in a less-than-ideal group.

bzz86 · June 2021

Doc45 wrote: »

I have four tanks, and when I come as tank I want to tank. When a dd runs ahead and aggros, even if they're capable of staying alive, it's disrepectful and often creates chaos that's unnecessary. When a tank is able to do their job and dps is low or mechanics aren't known, the tank is often put into the role of becoming the teacher. Most players do, in fact, choose dd as a way to play, and many of those are ignorant as to what a tank or healer can provide resulting in a common misunderstanding that support roles aren't valuable. I'd argue even if it's for FG1, if it's a pug, a tank has to be able to learn to tank so they can feel comfortable moving onto vet DLC trials and dungeons. Options like 3dd/1h or 4dd will just result in less end game tanks.

Maybe that is so... But people that want to tank would still be able to queue as tanks and learn. The dds that just want to run ahead can just do that in 4dds groups. End game tanks would still exist and that would not change.

bzz86 · June 2021

josiahva wrote: »

Doc45 wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

There just needs to be some sort of system that checks you actually are what you say you are.

Agreed, and there are multiple threads with people asking for that to occur. It seems to be getting worse. I queued for a vet dungeon tonight, a fairly easy pledge (WS), and there was a fake tank. Their health was 28k, so I figured they at least wouldn't go down easily, and they were CP1200 so I had hope they knew what they were doing.

When they started off with "Skip this first boss. Skip adds. Drag 'em to x," I thought it was annoying, especially with two CP50-CP200 players in the group that maybe hadn't done the dungeon countless times. However, it also gave the impression they were maybe familiar with tanking, albeit one of those tanks that thinks dragging as much as possible to one spot makes them a good tank even when it often results in losing aggro and having those behind attacked or, best case scenario, the pull results in no deaths but the npcs that were aggroed and not killed result in the group remaining in combat and unable to proceed through a door. Slow is smooth; smooth is fast.

We got through things ok despite the fake tank, got to final boss, read the scroll as it was a pledge, and realized the tank wasn't taunting. With the other two saying, "Do we have a tank?", the response from the fake tank was "Just kite the boss around". So now the three of us had to compensate for them skipping the queue, dps was low, and the boss kept getting dragged out of any dots. We wiped, and I asked the fake tank, "Do you have a taunt?". Answer: "No, does the healer have one?". I was the healer and responded, "I didn't queue as a tank". I do have a taunt, but if that boss takes awhile to go down, stamina runs out. It's a lot of pressure on a healer in HM. I started a vote to kick after that, which went through, and after waiting a few minutes for a tank replacement, decided to just go with Bastian. Turns out Bastian did a better job than the fake tank/selfish dd that wanted to save time skipping the queue and instead cost the three of us that got stuck with 'em time and frustration.

From what I've seen in the forums, the majority of players are opposed to fake tanks in pugs especially in dungeons in which the group would benefit from the fake tank at least having a taunt (though it's still frustrating as a healer to have to accommodate them by having my focus shift to keeping a low health fake tank alive). It can feel a little awkward to vote kick someone, but, without a system in place to check the person is in a role they're capable of, the system becomes the members of the group witnessing the behavior of others within the group. In my opinion, players should have some ability to adapt, give others the benefit of the doubt, and assist those learning. But when it's clear someone is completely selfish and hindering the other members of the group, never hesitate to vote to kick. That's the best way to discourage the behavior.

You are right...the best way to discourage the behavior is vote-to-kick.

There would be zero point to requiring any specific thing to do a role. As an example, for a lot of dungeons(especially if group DPS falls below a certain threshold) I use my off-DPS tank setup...this setup is still tough enough for about 85% of the vet DLC dungeons...but the way I grab group aggro is to run in and layer down a LOT of AOE and DoTs....as long as the DPS let me run in first, everything aggros on me for abut 5-6 seconds...during that time I am dragging any ranged ads with chains...by the time I am done with that if the DPS are doing more damage than me(sadly its often not the case), I will start to lose aggro and will start to taunt ads that are turning away then. On running into the pack I do still of course taunt any ad that is actually a real threat. There are many times on a trash pack I don't even have to use a taunt at all to keep the aggro of the entire pack. The same does not hold true for a boss of course and I always do have a taunt on my front bar to taunt anything needed at any time(and chains on my back bar, which is a pseudo-taunt, very few enemies it doesn't aggro for 3-4 seconds or so).

The point is that this "beserker" type of tanking is not classical, but can still be very effective if done right and if I wanted to, I could build a tank with no taunt AT ALL beyond chains(chains is free if the enemy isn't pulled to you, and there are tricks that you can do with it like make an enemy play monkey in the middle by aggroing it with chains and then letting it re-aggro on the DPS, over and over again). Not sure why I would want to do that, but maybe there is a combination of sets that could take advantage of such a build that doesn't have space for a taunt.

Generally on my tank, I keep enough sets in inventory that with the Dressing Room add-on I can easily tailor the build to compensate for any weak spots in the group...I can go off-DPS or off-heals as needed....the other day I was tanking vCT and for whatever reason the healer had to leave at the last boss, so I slotted Battalion Defender, Redistributor, a resto staff back bar, and echoing vigor, with that I was able to keep the DPS healed until the queued healer showed up halfway through the fight....of course that is a severe resource drain and it makes it very easy for me to make a mistake in that particular fight but I think with some practice and being a bit more conservative I could have off-healed the entire fight while tanking without issue. Sometimes people just can't see past their role to fill in for whatever else is needed in a less-than-ideal group.

I understand your point but its enough if that fake tank has a friend in the group(generally another dd) and you will be unable to kick them.

zvavi · June 2021

Doc45 wrote: »

With the other two saying, "Do we have a tank?", the response from the fake tank was "Just kite the boss around".

This is the worst advice ever. it shows how clueless about game mechanics the fake tank is.

zvavi · June 2021

Agenericname wrote: »

Doc45 wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

There just needs to be some sort of system that checks you actually are what you say you are.

Agreed, and there are multiple threads with people asking for that to occur. It seems to be getting worse. I queued for a vet dungeon tonight, a fairly easy pledge (WS), and there was a fake tank. Their health was 28k, so I figured they at least wouldn't go down easily, and they were CP1200 so I had hope they knew what they were doing.

When they started off with "Skip this first boss. Skip adds. Drag 'em to x," I thought it was annoying, especially with two CP50-CP200 players in the group that maybe hadn't done the dungeon countless times. However, it also gave the impression they were maybe familiar with tanking, albeit one of those tanks that thinks dragging as much as possible to one spot makes them a good tank even when it often results in losing aggro and having those behind attacked or, best case scenario, the pull results in no deaths but the npcs that were aggroed and not killed result in the group remaining in combat and unable to proceed through a door. Slow is smooth; smooth is fast.

We got through things ok despite the fake tank, got to final boss, read the scroll as it was a pledge, and realized the tank wasn't taunting. With the other two saying, "Do we have a tank?", the response from the fake tank was "Just kite the boss around". So now the three of us had to compensate for them skipping the queue, dps was low, and the boss kept getting dragged out of any dots. We wiped, and I asked the fake tank, "Do you have a taunt?". Answer: "No, does the healer have one?". I was the healer and responded, "I didn't queue as a tank". I do have a taunt, but if that boss takes awhile to go down, stamina runs out. It's a lot of pressure on a healer in HM. I started a vote to kick after that, which went through, and after waiting a few minutes for a tank replacement, decided to just go with Bastian. Turns out Bastian did a better job than the fake tank/selfish dd that wanted to save time skipping the queue and instead cost the three of us that got stuck with 'em time and frustration.

From what I've seen in the forums, the majority of players are opposed to fake tanks in pugs especially in dungeons in which the group would benefit from the fake tank at least having a taunt (though it's still frustrating as a healer to have to accommodate them by having my focus shift to keeping a low health fake tank alive). It can feel a little awkward to vote kick someone, but, without a system in place to check the person is in a role they're capable of, the system becomes the members of the group witnessing the behavior of others within the group. In my opinion, players should have some ability to adapt, give others the benefit of the doubt, and assist those learning. But when it's clear someone is completely selfish and hindering the other members of the group, never hesitate to vote to kick. That's the best way to discourage the behavior.

There often are numerous requests for this. Fortunately for most tanks, they're ignored or not acted upon.

Fake tanks fill a vacuum. If there were enough willing to queue, this would all be irrelevant. So any solution needs to be one that encourages real tanks to use the queue. Most of the suggestions fail miserably at that.

Bar low damage dps from vet queue. Fixed.

bzz86 · June 2021

zvavi wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Doc45 wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

There just needs to be some sort of system that checks you actually are what you say you are.

Agreed, and there are multiple threads with people asking for that to occur. It seems to be getting worse. I queued for a vet dungeon tonight, a fairly easy pledge (WS), and there was a fake tank. Their health was 28k, so I figured they at least wouldn't go down easily, and they were CP1200 so I had hope they knew what they were doing.

When they started off with "Skip this first boss. Skip adds. Drag 'em to x," I thought it was annoying, especially with two CP50-CP200 players in the group that maybe hadn't done the dungeon countless times. However, it also gave the impression they were maybe familiar with tanking, albeit one of those tanks that thinks dragging as much as possible to one spot makes them a good tank even when it often results in losing aggro and having those behind attacked or, best case scenario, the pull results in no deaths but the npcs that were aggroed and not killed result in the group remaining in combat and unable to proceed through a door. Slow is smooth; smooth is fast.

We got through things ok despite the fake tank, got to final boss, read the scroll as it was a pledge, and realized the tank wasn't taunting. With the other two saying, "Do we have a tank?", the response from the fake tank was "Just kite the boss around". So now the three of us had to compensate for them skipping the queue, dps was low, and the boss kept getting dragged out of any dots. We wiped, and I asked the fake tank, "Do you have a taunt?". Answer: "No, does the healer have one?". I was the healer and responded, "I didn't queue as a tank". I do have a taunt, but if that boss takes awhile to go down, stamina runs out. It's a lot of pressure on a healer in HM. I started a vote to kick after that, which went through, and after waiting a few minutes for a tank replacement, decided to just go with Bastian. Turns out Bastian did a better job than the fake tank/selfish dd that wanted to save time skipping the queue and instead cost the three of us that got stuck with 'em time and frustration.

From what I've seen in the forums, the majority of players are opposed to fake tanks in pugs especially in dungeons in which the group would benefit from the fake tank at least having a taunt (though it's still frustrating as a healer to have to accommodate them by having my focus shift to keeping a low health fake tank alive). It can feel a little awkward to vote kick someone, but, without a system in place to check the person is in a role they're capable of, the system becomes the members of the group witnessing the behavior of others within the group. In my opinion, players should have some ability to adapt, give others the benefit of the doubt, and assist those learning. But when it's clear someone is completely selfish and hindering the other members of the group, never hesitate to vote to kick. That's the best way to discourage the behavior.

There often are numerous requests for this. Fortunately for most tanks, they're ignored or not acted upon.

Fake tanks fill a vacuum. If there were enough willing to queue, this would all be irrelevant. So any solution needs to be one that encourages real tanks to use the queue. Most of the suggestions fail miserably at that.

Bar low damage dps from vet queue. Fixed.

I do not think the problem are low dps dd-s. I think the problem starts when these dds queue as tanks.

Agenericname · June 2021

Doc45 wrote: »

I have four tanks, and when I come as tank I want to tank. When a dd runs ahead and aggros, even if they're capable of staying alive, it's disrepectful and often creates chaos that's unnecessary. When a tank is able to do their job and dps is low or mechanics aren't known, the tank is often put into the role of becoming the teacher. Most players do, in fact, choose dd as a way to play, and many of those are ignorant as to what a tank or healer can provide resulting in a common misunderstanding that support roles aren't valuable. I'd argue even if it's for FG1, if it's a pug, a tank has to be able to learn to tank so they can feel comfortable moving onto vet DLC trials and dungeons. Options like 3dd/1h or 4dd will just result in less end game tanks.

Its a reasonable position to take, but I came to a different conclusion.

As long as ZOS maintains the current reward system, one that encourages players to flood normal dungeons for crystals and XP, this will continue to be a problem. If they're unwilling to change it, then offer a venue for those that are just there for the fast xp and transmutes to do that without being a disruption to the rest.

Yes, they can form their own groups, but its still much faster to queue as a fake tank than it is to find a group. Im not saying what anyone should do, only what is the most efficient. Until that changes, this will continue to be the case.

A separate queue is one of the few suggestions that I would support. Many of the others, like locking our gear or abilities to prove we are in fact a tank, penalize real tanks and restrict our ability to alter our methods in content.

Doc45 · June 2021

bzz86 wrote: »

Maybe that is so... But people that want to tank would still be able to queue as tanks and learn. The dds that just want to run ahead can just do that in 4dds groups. End game tanks would still exist and that would not change.

If a new player enters the game wanting to be a tank main, and opportunities are taken away from them to learn how to be a tank, there will be less end game tanks. That's just a fact. I'm CP1800+, been playing over 5 years, and when I see in zone or even in guild chat "Random normal, LF 3 dps", I don't x up if I'm on my healer. I can do more dps than most dedicated dd's in a pug group and slot a bit of gear more dedicated to doing so, but it's off putting. I certainly wouldn't x up on one of my tanks as they can't out dps a dedicated dd. My tanks are end game tanks and carry around enough sets without trying to also be dd's because someone in guild finder needs me to fulfill their role. I can only imagine what it feels like to a new healer or tank. To make that a part of the guild finder, in my opinion, would only push more players to dd main and exacerbate the problem.

bzz86 · June 2021

Doc45 wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

Maybe that is so... But people that want to tank would still be able to queue as tanks and learn. The dds that just want to run ahead can just do that in 4dds groups. End game tanks would still exist and that would not change.

If a new player enters the game wanting to be a tank main, and opportunities are taken away from them to learn how to be a tank, there will be less end game tanks. That's just a fact. I'm CP1800+, been playing over 5 years, and when I see in zone or even in guild chat "Random normal, LF 3 dps", I don't x up if I'm on my healer. I can do more dps than most dedicated dd's in a pug group and slot a bit of gear more dedicated to doing so, but it's off putting. I certainly wouldn't x up on one of my tanks as they can't out dps a dedicated dd. My tanks are end game tanks and carry around enough sets without trying to also be dd's because someone in guild finder needs me to fulfill their role. I can only imagine what it feels like to a new healer or tank. To make that a part of the guild finder, in my opinion, would only push more players to dd main and exacerbate the problem.

I can see your point. But seeing how little tanks already exist in game and how people dont want to heal anymore. having queues dedicated to 3dds or 4 dds would not change much and would make it simpler for people that want to play 'normal' way.

amm7sb14_ESO · June 2021

bzz86 wrote: »

Doc45 wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

Maybe that is so... But people that want to tank would still be able to queue as tanks and learn. The dds that just want to run ahead can just do that in 4dds groups. End game tanks would still exist and that would not change.

If a new player enters the game wanting to be a tank main, and opportunities are taken away from them to learn how to be a tank, there will be less end game tanks. That's just a fact. I'm CP1800+, been playing over 5 years, and when I see in zone or even in guild chat "Random normal, LF 3 dps", I don't x up if I'm on my healer. I can do more dps than most dedicated dd's in a pug group and slot a bit of gear more dedicated to doing so, but it's off putting. I certainly wouldn't x up on one of my tanks as they can't out dps a dedicated dd. My tanks are end game tanks and carry around enough sets without trying to also be dd's because someone in guild finder needs me to fulfill their role. I can only imagine what it feels like to a new healer or tank. To make that a part of the guild finder, in my opinion, would only push more players to dd main and exacerbate the problem.

I can see your point. But seeing how little tanks already exist in game and how people dont want to heal anymore. having queues dedicated to 3dds or 4 dds would not change much and would make it simpler for people that want to play 'normal' way.

Doubt it would change anything.

The # of DD's in game compared to tanks and healers would mean there would still be a wait even for 4 DD queues, so they would still hit up the T/ H / 2 DD queue as tanks and healers to bypass it.

Nothing would really change. Except seeing 4 DD queues would probably give off the impression to newer gamers that tanks and healers are unnecessary.

Changing the queue won't solve the problem.

bzz86 · June 2021

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

Doc45 wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

Maybe that is so... But people that want to tank would still be able to queue as tanks and learn. The dds that just want to run ahead can just do that in 4dds groups. End game tanks would still exist and that would not change.

If a new player enters the game wanting to be a tank main, and opportunities are taken away from them to learn how to be a tank, there will be less end game tanks. That's just a fact. I'm CP1800+, been playing over 5 years, and when I see in zone or even in guild chat "Random normal, LF 3 dps", I don't x up if I'm on my healer. I can do more dps than most dedicated dd's in a pug group and slot a bit of gear more dedicated to doing so, but it's off putting. I certainly wouldn't x up on one of my tanks as they can't out dps a dedicated dd. My tanks are end game tanks and carry around enough sets without trying to also be dd's because someone in guild finder needs me to fulfill their role. I can only imagine what it feels like to a new healer or tank. To make that a part of the guild finder, in my opinion, would only push more players to dd main and exacerbate the problem.

I can see your point. But seeing how little tanks already exist in game and how people dont want to heal anymore. having queues dedicated to 3dds or 4 dds would not change much and would make it simpler for people that want to play 'normal' way.

Doubt it would change anything.

The # of DD's in game compared to tanks and healers would mean there would still be a wait even for 4 DD queues, so they would still hit up the T/ H / 2 DD queue as tanks and healers to bypass it.

Nothing would really change. Except seeing 4 DD queues would probably give off the impression to newer gamers that tanks and healers are unnecessary.

Changing the queue won't solve the problem.

indeed. that is correct. this is why there needs to be a way to lock people to roles. or at least check they can do what they say they can .... .i do realize its near impossible.

Ninrod86 · June 2021

Tbh you dont need the tank/heal/dps thing for the base game normal/vet dungs. They are so easy that even if you bang your head on the keyboard you can finish the dg. I normaly que with my necro as tank/healer/dps and do the 3 roles at the same time!

you have 12 skills slots in your bar, there is absolut no need to slot all of them for the same rule. 2 healing skills 2 for tank (yea a taunt plz) and the resto for dmg is more then enough.

Another thing, I rathed find quite annoyng when I see a tank only hold block or a healer just standing there spaming heals ... dgs are not veteran trials, both of them can pretty much dps too. Not even wow uses that concept anymore.

bzz86 · June 2021

Ninrod86 wrote: »

Tbh you dont need the tank/heal/dps thing for the base game normal/vet dungs. They are so easy that even if you bang your head on the keyboard you can finish the dg. I normaly que with my necro as tank/healer/dps and do the 3 roles at the same time!

you have 12 skills slots in your bar, there is absolut no need to slot all of them for the same rule. 2 healing skills 2 for tank (yea a taunt plz) and the resto for dmg is more then enough.

Another thing, I rathed find quite annoyng when I see a tank only hold block or a healer just standing there spaming heals ... dgs are not veteran trials, both of them can pretty much dps too. Not even wow uses that concept anymore.

Then you might be part of the problem....

Ninrod86 · June 2021

bzz86 wrote: »

Ninrod86 wrote: »

Tbh you dont need the tank/heal/dps thing for the base game normal/vet dungs. They are so easy that even if you bang your head on the keyboard you can finish the dg. I normaly que with my necro as tank/healer/dps and do the 3 roles at the same time!

you have 12 skills slots in your bar, there is absolut no need to slot all of them for the same rule. 2 healing skills 2 for tank (yea a taunt plz) and the resto for dmg is more then enough.

Another thing, I rathed find quite annoyng when I see a tank only hold block or a healer just standing there spaming heals ... dgs are not veteran trials, both of them can pretty much dps too. Not even wow uses that concept anymore.

Then you might be part of the problem....

nobody ever complained !

you need might need to "gitgud" and stop cryn about this lame easy content. Like I said, it's not a veteran trial we are talking about it.

Just to have an idea, as far as I remember on the base game vet dg/hm, you "only" need to block selene bear attack. All the other bosses you just need 20-25k armor and you can pretty much face tank them. Most of the new players die of boss mechanics, not from lack of heals or a taunt.

Of course that I agree that there is some ppl that que as a tank for example and that person cant do any of the 3 thing. But that doesnt exclude the fact that some ppl can.

bzz86 · June 2021

Ninrod86 wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

Ninrod86 wrote: »

Tbh you dont need the tank/heal/dps thing for the base game normal/vet dungs. They are so easy that even if you bang your head on the keyboard you can finish the dg. I normaly que with my necro as tank/healer/dps and do the 3 roles at the same time!

you have 12 skills slots in your bar, there is absolut no need to slot all of them for the same rule. 2 healing skills 2 for tank (yea a taunt plz) and the resto for dmg is more then enough.

Another thing, I rathed find quite annoyng when I see a tank only hold block or a healer just standing there spaming heals ... dgs are not veteran trials, both of them can pretty much dps too. Not even wow uses that concept anymore.

Then you might be part of the problem....

nobody ever complained !

you need might need to "gitgud" and stop cryn about this lame easy content. Like I said, it's not a veteran trial we are talking about it.

Just to have an idea, as far as I remember on the base game vet dg/hm, you "only" need to block selene bear attack. All the other bosses you just need 20-25k armor and you can pretty much face tank them. Most of the new players die of boss mechanics, not from lack of heals or a taunt.

Of course that I agree that there is some ppl that que as a tank for example and that person cant do any of the 3 thing. But that doesnt exclude the fact that some ppl can.

Read the topic from the start and then 'gitgud' at commenting. Dont come here to insult comments of others cause that is just proving that my comment

bzz86 wrote: »

Ninrod86 wrote: »

Tbh you dont need the tank/heal/dps thing for the base game normal/vet dungs. They are so easy that even if you bang your head on the keyboard you can finish the dg. I normaly que with my necro as tank/healer/dps and do the 3 roles at the same time!

you have 12 skills slots in your bar, there is absolut no need to slot all of them for the same rule. 2 healing skills 2 for tank (yea a taunt plz) and the resto for dmg is more then enough.

Another thing, I rathed find quite annoyng when I see a tank only hold block or a healer just standing there spaming heals ... dgs are not veteran trials, both of them can pretty much dps too. Not even wow uses that concept anymore.

Then you might be part of the problem....

has a point...

amm7sb14_ESO · June 2021

bzz86 wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

Doc45 wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

Maybe that is so... But people that want to tank would still be able to queue as tanks and learn. The dds that just want to run ahead can just do that in 4dds groups. End game tanks would still exist and that would not change.

If a new player enters the game wanting to be a tank main, and opportunities are taken away from them to learn how to be a tank, there will be less end game tanks. That's just a fact. I'm CP1800+, been playing over 5 years, and when I see in zone or even in guild chat "Random normal, LF 3 dps", I don't x up if I'm on my healer. I can do more dps than most dedicated dd's in a pug group and slot a bit of gear more dedicated to doing so, but it's off putting. I certainly wouldn't x up on one of my tanks as they can't out dps a dedicated dd. My tanks are end game tanks and carry around enough sets without trying to also be dd's because someone in guild finder needs me to fulfill their role. I can only imagine what it feels like to a new healer or tank. To make that a part of the guild finder, in my opinion, would only push more players to dd main and exacerbate the problem.

I can see your point. But seeing how little tanks already exist in game and how people dont want to heal anymore. having queues dedicated to 3dds or 4 dds would not change much and would make it simpler for people that want to play 'normal' way.

Doubt it would change anything.

The # of DD's in game compared to tanks and healers would mean there would still be a wait even for 4 DD queues, so they would still hit up the T/ H / 2 DD queue as tanks and healers to bypass it.

Nothing would really change. Except seeing 4 DD queues would probably give off the impression to newer gamers that tanks and healers are unnecessary.

Changing the queue won't solve the problem.

indeed. that is correct. this is why there needs to be a way to lock people to roles. or at least check they can do what they say they can .... .i do realize its near impossible.

No, there shouldn't be checks or locks.

If we go that route, we might as well just take away any creative freedom people have to build their own characters.

People want all these checks and requirements for roles. The game may as well just eliminate builds altogether. No more variations on roles or classes, just make character creation simple:

*Tank
*Stamina DPS
*Magicka DPS
*Healer

No more Nightblade, Dragon Knight, Necromancer, Sorcerer, etc...

Each new class comes pre-equipped with the necessary skills; I.E. Tank has "Taunt", "Resolve", "Maim", "Breach / Fracture", "Crowd Control", "Heal"

There's no more gear farming, each new class comes pre-equipped with the sets that have been deemed "meta" and needed for content. I.E. Tank has "Alkosh" and "Yolnakhriin" already pre-equipped. No farming it, and no chance to change up. They automatically have "Crusher" enchants and "Reinforced" traits.

There's no more attributes. Each class automatically has their relevant attribute pool maxed out to 64. I.E. Tank has 64 health automatically added.

There's no more Mundus. Each class gets their necessary Mundus stone automatically added.

No race selection. Tanks are now automatically a Nord, stamina DPS are now automatically an Orc, magicka DPS are now automatically a High Elf, Healers are now automatically Argonian.

This is why I can't stand "meta" in the first place, because the meta aspires to turn the game into that. And having role checks and role locks are another step in that direction.

This is the same thing I said in the other thread from like a week ago. Nobody is entitled to other people's characters or performances. You are not entitled to other people performing up to your expectations, or building their characters to your standards. I personally will never run meta sets that other people tell me to wear or should wear, I will not let another person dictate *my* character, and nobody owes me their character build to match my expectations.

The fix to the dungeon finder is simple: Pre-made groups. If you are going to join the group finder queue, you are jumping into a queue with anyone and everyone who is playing the game. And everyone has equal right to the content.

On the same way that you are not entitled to anyone's builds or performances, they are not entitled to your time. If you don't like the group dynamic, you are free to leave the group.

I say this as a tank main who gets just as frustrated as anyone by getting groups with DPS in vet DLC dungeons that can't do the amount of damage necessary, or don't know mechanics and can't be bothered to learn because all they understand is dummy parsing.

I say this as someone who also rolls DPS and healers and hates getting fake tanks that can't aggro a mob for anything, and make the runs more tedious than they need to be all because they are greedy and want to cut the line.

I say this as someone who doesn't always have the energy to explain mechanics every single time I enter a DLC dungeon.

I get just as frustrated as anyone.

But one thing I never do is feel entitled to someone else's performance. They don't owe me a knowledge of a dungeon that they may be running for the first time. They don't owe me high DPS #'s when they may still be learning their rotation. They don't owe me set combinations that they may not have been able to collect yet, or may not want for their character because those sets aren't fun for them.

If I am not in the mood to deal with any of that, I have a simple solution. I can create my own group. I can ask in my guild, I can reach out to real life friends who play, I can form my own group of people who have all that stuff already if that's what I want. And I get it, sometimes it's easier to just hit the queue than it is to start asking around in guilds. I get it, and I find myself doing that a lot as well and just PUG'ing. But that is a choice I have to make, and if I do decide on the convenience of the dungeon queue, I also have to accept that I am in a pool of literally anyone and everyone in the game. And they all have equal rights to the dungeon queue as I do. You take the good with the bad, and it is what it is.

There doesn't need to be any changes to the queue. There don't need to be set checks, or stat checks, or skill checks, or DPS pre-parses, or anything like that. There is already a solution to the issues of the dungeon finder: pre-made groups.

Either form a pre-made, or go into the dungeon queue and deal with the fact that nobody in this game owes you anything.

And most importantly remember at the end of the day, this is just a game. None of this matters. It is something done for leisure. Once people actually remember that, then this community will be so much better.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · June 2021

I wonder if an easy fix to some of these problems would be to disable taunt from anyone not queued as a tank in groupfinder, and simultaneously require a taunt to be slotted to queue as a tank. Sure, there might be some strats where a non Tank might find a taunt useful, but I cant think of any time that is absolutely mandatory in groupfinder dungeons. (last boss of DSA comes to mind, but not an issue). And you might have someone slot a taunt and remove it to bypass the queue, but at least you know they have one, push comes to shove.

bzz86 · June 2021

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

Doc45 wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

Maybe that is so... But people that want to tank would still be able to queue as tanks and learn. The dds that just want to run ahead can just do that in 4dds groups. End game tanks would still exist and that would not change.

If a new player enters the game wanting to be a tank main, and opportunities are taken away from them to learn how to be a tank, there will be less end game tanks. That's just a fact. I'm CP1800+, been playing over 5 years, and when I see in zone or even in guild chat "Random normal, LF 3 dps", I don't x up if I'm on my healer. I can do more dps than most dedicated dd's in a pug group and slot a bit of gear more dedicated to doing so, but it's off putting. I certainly wouldn't x up on one of my tanks as they can't out dps a dedicated dd. My tanks are end game tanks and carry around enough sets without trying to also be dd's because someone in guild finder needs me to fulfill their role. I can only imagine what it feels like to a new healer or tank. To make that a part of the guild finder, in my opinion, would only push more players to dd main and exacerbate the problem.

I can see your point. But seeing how little tanks already exist in game and how people dont want to heal anymore. having queues dedicated to 3dds or 4 dds would not change much and would make it simpler for people that want to play 'normal' way.

Doubt it would change anything.

The # of DD's in game compared to tanks and healers would mean there would still be a wait even for 4 DD queues, so they would still hit up the T/ H / 2 DD queue as tanks and healers to bypass it.

Nothing would really change. Except seeing 4 DD queues would probably give off the impression to newer gamers that tanks and healers are unnecessary.

Changing the queue won't solve the problem.

indeed. that is correct. this is why there needs to be a way to lock people to roles. or at least check they can do what they say they can .... .i do realize its near impossible.

No, there shouldn't be checks or locks.

If we go that route, we might as well just take away any creative freedom people have to build their own characters.

People want all these checks and requirements for roles. The game may as well just eliminate builds altogether. No more variations on roles or classes, just make character creation simple:

*Tank
*Stamina DPS
*Magicka DPS
*Healer

No more Nightblade, Dragon Knight, Necromancer, Sorcerer, etc...

Each new class comes pre-equipped with the necessary skills; I.E. Tank has "Taunt", "Resolve", "Maim", "Breach / Fracture", "Crowd Control", "Heal"

There's no more gear farming, each new class comes pre-equipped with the sets that have been deemed "meta" and needed for content. I.E. Tank has "Alkosh" and "Yolnakhriin" already pre-equipped. No farming it, and no chance to change up. They automatically have "Crusher" enchants and "Reinforced" traits.

There's no more attributes. Each class automatically has their relevant attribute pool maxed out to 64. I.E. Tank has 64 health automatically added.

There's no more Mundus. Each class gets their necessary Mundus stone automatically added.

No race selection. Tanks are now automatically a Nord, stamina DPS are now automatically an Orc, magicka DPS are now automatically a High Elf, Healers are now automatically Argonian.

This is why I can't stand "meta" in the first place, because the meta aspires to turn the game into that. And having role checks and role locks are another step in that direction.

This is the same thing I said in the other thread from like a week ago. Nobody is entitled to other people's characters or performances. You are not entitled to other people performing up to your expectations, or building their characters to your standards. I personally will never run meta sets that other people tell me to wear or should wear, I will not let another person dictate *my* character, and nobody owes me their character build to match my expectations.

The fix to the dungeon finder is simple: Pre-made groups. If you are going to join the group finder queue, you are jumping into a queue with anyone and everyone who is playing the game. And everyone has equal right to the content.

On the same way that you are not entitled to anyone's builds or performances, they are not entitled to your time. If you don't like the group dynamic, you are free to leave the group.

I say this as a tank main who gets just as frustrated as anyone by getting groups with DPS in vet DLC dungeons that can't do the amount of damage necessary, or don't know mechanics and can't be bothered to learn because all they understand is dummy parsing.

I say this as someone who also rolls DPS and healers and hates getting fake tanks that can't aggro a mob for anything, and make the runs more tedious than they need to be all because they are greedy and want to cut the line.

I say this as someone who doesn't always have the energy to explain mechanics every single time I enter a DLC dungeon.

I get just as frustrated as anyone.

But one thing I never do is feel entitled to someone else's performance. They don't owe me a knowledge of a dungeon that they may be running for the first time. They don't owe me high DPS #'s when they may still be learning their rotation. They don't owe me set combinations that they may not have been able to collect yet, or may not want for their character because those sets aren't fun for them.

If I am not in the mood to deal with any of that, I have a simple solution. I can create my own group. I can ask in my guild, I can reach out to real life friends who play, I can form my own group of people who have all that stuff already if that's what I want. And I get it, sometimes it's easier to just hit the queue than it is to start asking around in guilds. I get it, and I find myself doing that a lot as well and just PUG'ing. But that is a choice I have to make, and if I do decide on the convenience of the dungeon queue, I also have to accept that I am in a pool of literally anyone and everyone in the game. And they all have equal rights to the dungeon queue as I do. You take the good with the bad, and it is what it is.

There doesn't need to be any changes to the queue. There don't need to be set checks, or stat checks, or skill checks, or DPS pre-parses, or anything like that. There is already a solution to the issues of the dungeon finder: pre-made groups.

Either form a pre-made, or go into the dungeon queue and deal with the fact that nobody in this game owes you anything.

And most importantly remember at the end of the day, this is just a game. None of this matters. It is something done for leisure. Once people actually remember that, then this community will be so much better.

That is very much out of context mate. The problem is:

Poor with no skill or awareness dds that queue as tanks or healers. The problem are not people that know what to do.

Normal dungeons are easy - but not so much if your tank is level 1400cp dd with 10k damage and no idea what he is doing cause he spent last week online farming for cp.

People that queue for role that allows them to get in dungeon fast cause queuing as dd take to long but never actually learned the mechanics of the game.

The problem are NOT:
People that know what to do with understanding of the game or/and its mechanics. Or low level people that are learning and are willing to do so.

amm7sb14_ESO · June 2021

bzz86 wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

Doc45 wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

Maybe that is so... But people that want to tank would still be able to queue as tanks and learn. The dds that just want to run ahead can just do that in 4dds groups. End game tanks would still exist and that would not change.

If a new player enters the game wanting to be a tank main, and opportunities are taken away from them to learn how to be a tank, there will be less end game tanks. That's just a fact. I'm CP1800+, been playing over 5 years, and when I see in zone or even in guild chat "Random normal, LF 3 dps", I don't x up if I'm on my healer. I can do more dps than most dedicated dd's in a pug group and slot a bit of gear more dedicated to doing so, but it's off putting. I certainly wouldn't x up on one of my tanks as they can't out dps a dedicated dd. My tanks are end game tanks and carry around enough sets without trying to also be dd's because someone in guild finder needs me to fulfill their role. I can only imagine what it feels like to a new healer or tank. To make that a part of the guild finder, in my opinion, would only push more players to dd main and exacerbate the problem.

I can see your point. But seeing how little tanks already exist in game and how people dont want to heal anymore. having queues dedicated to 3dds or 4 dds would not change much and would make it simpler for people that want to play 'normal' way.

Doubt it would change anything.

The # of DD's in game compared to tanks and healers would mean there would still be a wait even for 4 DD queues, so they would still hit up the T/ H / 2 DD queue as tanks and healers to bypass it.

Nothing would really change. Except seeing 4 DD queues would probably give off the impression to newer gamers that tanks and healers are unnecessary.

Changing the queue won't solve the problem.

indeed. that is correct. this is why there needs to be a way to lock people to roles. or at least check they can do what they say they can .... .i do realize its near impossible.

No, there shouldn't be checks or locks.

If we go that route, we might as well just take away any creative freedom people have to build their own characters.

People want all these checks and requirements for roles. The game may as well just eliminate builds altogether. No more variations on roles or classes, just make character creation simple:

*Tank
*Stamina DPS
*Magicka DPS
*Healer

No more Nightblade, Dragon Knight, Necromancer, Sorcerer, etc...

Each new class comes pre-equipped with the necessary skills; I.E. Tank has "Taunt", "Resolve", "Maim", "Breach / Fracture", "Crowd Control", "Heal"

There's no more gear farming, each new class comes pre-equipped with the sets that have been deemed "meta" and needed for content. I.E. Tank has "Alkosh" and "Yolnakhriin" already pre-equipped. No farming it, and no chance to change up. They automatically have "Crusher" enchants and "Reinforced" traits.

There's no more attributes. Each class automatically has their relevant attribute pool maxed out to 64. I.E. Tank has 64 health automatically added.

There's no more Mundus. Each class gets their necessary Mundus stone automatically added.

No race selection. Tanks are now automatically a Nord, stamina DPS are now automatically an Orc, magicka DPS are now automatically a High Elf, Healers are now automatically Argonian.

This is why I can't stand "meta" in the first place, because the meta aspires to turn the game into that. And having role checks and role locks are another step in that direction.

This is the same thing I said in the other thread from like a week ago. Nobody is entitled to other people's characters or performances. You are not entitled to other people performing up to your expectations, or building their characters to your standards. I personally will never run meta sets that other people tell me to wear or should wear, I will not let another person dictate *my* character, and nobody owes me their character build to match my expectations.

The fix to the dungeon finder is simple: Pre-made groups. If you are going to join the group finder queue, you are jumping into a queue with anyone and everyone who is playing the game. And everyone has equal right to the content.

On the same way that you are not entitled to anyone's builds or performances, they are not entitled to your time. If you don't like the group dynamic, you are free to leave the group.

I say this as a tank main who gets just as frustrated as anyone by getting groups with DPS in vet DLC dungeons that can't do the amount of damage necessary, or don't know mechanics and can't be bothered to learn because all they understand is dummy parsing.

I say this as someone who also rolls DPS and healers and hates getting fake tanks that can't aggro a mob for anything, and make the runs more tedious than they need to be all because they are greedy and want to cut the line.

I say this as someone who doesn't always have the energy to explain mechanics every single time I enter a DLC dungeon.

I get just as frustrated as anyone.

But one thing I never do is feel entitled to someone else's performance. They don't owe me a knowledge of a dungeon that they may be running for the first time. They don't owe me high DPS #'s when they may still be learning their rotation. They don't owe me set combinations that they may not have been able to collect yet, or may not want for their character because those sets aren't fun for them.

If I am not in the mood to deal with any of that, I have a simple solution. I can create my own group. I can ask in my guild, I can reach out to real life friends who play, I can form my own group of people who have all that stuff already if that's what I want. And I get it, sometimes it's easier to just hit the queue than it is to start asking around in guilds. I get it, and I find myself doing that a lot as well and just PUG'ing. But that is a choice I have to make, and if I do decide on the convenience of the dungeon queue, I also have to accept that I am in a pool of literally anyone and everyone in the game. And they all have equal rights to the dungeon queue as I do. You take the good with the bad, and it is what it is.

There doesn't need to be any changes to the queue. There don't need to be set checks, or stat checks, or skill checks, or DPS pre-parses, or anything like that. There is already a solution to the issues of the dungeon finder: pre-made groups.

Either form a pre-made, or go into the dungeon queue and deal with the fact that nobody in this game owes you anything.

And most importantly remember at the end of the day, this is just a game. None of this matters. It is something done for leisure. Once people actually remember that, then this community will be so much better.

That is very much out of context mate. The problem is:

Poor with no skill or awareness dds that queue as tanks or healers. The problem are not people that know what to do.

Normal dungeons are easy - but not so much if your tank is level 1400cp dd with 10k damage and no idea what he is doing cause he spent last week online farming for cp.

People that queue for role that allows them to get in dungeon fast cause queuing as dd take to long but never actually learned the mechanics of the game.

The problem are NOT:
People that know what to do with understanding of the game or/and its mechanics. Or low level people that are learning and are willing to do so.

Normal dungeons are easy even with the fake roles. Unless it's like Moon Hunter Keep or something. But I don't see people fake tanking those.

And it's not really out of context, because the locks and checks that you are requesting - and have been requested in the past - will impact those who are learning and willing to just as much as the fakes that you are trying to punish.

bzz86 · June 2021

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

Doc45 wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

Maybe that is so... But people that want to tank would still be able to queue as tanks and learn. The dds that just want to run ahead can just do that in 4dds groups. End game tanks would still exist and that would not change.

If a new player enters the game wanting to be a tank main, and opportunities are taken away from them to learn how to be a tank, there will be less end game tanks. That's just a fact. I'm CP1800+, been playing over 5 years, and when I see in zone or even in guild chat "Random normal, LF 3 dps", I don't x up if I'm on my healer. I can do more dps than most dedicated dd's in a pug group and slot a bit of gear more dedicated to doing so, but it's off putting. I certainly wouldn't x up on one of my tanks as they can't out dps a dedicated dd. My tanks are end game tanks and carry around enough sets without trying to also be dd's because someone in guild finder needs me to fulfill their role. I can only imagine what it feels like to a new healer or tank. To make that a part of the guild finder, in my opinion, would only push more players to dd main and exacerbate the problem.

I can see your point. But seeing how little tanks already exist in game and how people dont want to heal anymore. having queues dedicated to 3dds or 4 dds would not change much and would make it simpler for people that want to play 'normal' way.

Doubt it would change anything.

The # of DD's in game compared to tanks and healers would mean there would still be a wait even for 4 DD queues, so they would still hit up the T/ H / 2 DD queue as tanks and healers to bypass it.

Nothing would really change. Except seeing 4 DD queues would probably give off the impression to newer gamers that tanks and healers are unnecessary.

Changing the queue won't solve the problem.

indeed. that is correct. this is why there needs to be a way to lock people to roles. or at least check they can do what they say they can .... .i do realize its near impossible.

No, there shouldn't be checks or locks.

If we go that route, we might as well just take away any creative freedom people have to build their own characters.

People want all these checks and requirements for roles. The game may as well just eliminate builds altogether. No more variations on roles or classes, just make character creation simple:

*Tank
*Stamina DPS
*Magicka DPS
*Healer

No more Nightblade, Dragon Knight, Necromancer, Sorcerer, etc...

Each new class comes pre-equipped with the necessary skills; I.E. Tank has "Taunt", "Resolve", "Maim", "Breach / Fracture", "Crowd Control", "Heal"

There's no more gear farming, each new class comes pre-equipped with the sets that have been deemed "meta" and needed for content. I.E. Tank has "Alkosh" and "Yolnakhriin" already pre-equipped. No farming it, and no chance to change up. They automatically have "Crusher" enchants and "Reinforced" traits.

There's no more attributes. Each class automatically has their relevant attribute pool maxed out to 64. I.E. Tank has 64 health automatically added.

There's no more Mundus. Each class gets their necessary Mundus stone automatically added.

No race selection. Tanks are now automatically a Nord, stamina DPS are now automatically an Orc, magicka DPS are now automatically a High Elf, Healers are now automatically Argonian.

This is why I can't stand "meta" in the first place, because the meta aspires to turn the game into that. And having role checks and role locks are another step in that direction.

This is the same thing I said in the other thread from like a week ago. Nobody is entitled to other people's characters or performances. You are not entitled to other people performing up to your expectations, or building their characters to your standards. I personally will never run meta sets that other people tell me to wear or should wear, I will not let another person dictate *my* character, and nobody owes me their character build to match my expectations.

The fix to the dungeon finder is simple: Pre-made groups. If you are going to join the group finder queue, you are jumping into a queue with anyone and everyone who is playing the game. And everyone has equal right to the content.

On the same way that you are not entitled to anyone's builds or performances, they are not entitled to your time. If you don't like the group dynamic, you are free to leave the group.

I say this as a tank main who gets just as frustrated as anyone by getting groups with DPS in vet DLC dungeons that can't do the amount of damage necessary, or don't know mechanics and can't be bothered to learn because all they understand is dummy parsing.

I say this as someone who also rolls DPS and healers and hates getting fake tanks that can't aggro a mob for anything, and make the runs more tedious than they need to be all because they are greedy and want to cut the line.

I say this as someone who doesn't always have the energy to explain mechanics every single time I enter a DLC dungeon.

I get just as frustrated as anyone.

But one thing I never do is feel entitled to someone else's performance. They don't owe me a knowledge of a dungeon that they may be running for the first time. They don't owe me high DPS #'s when they may still be learning their rotation. They don't owe me set combinations that they may not have been able to collect yet, or may not want for their character because those sets aren't fun for them.

If I am not in the mood to deal with any of that, I have a simple solution. I can create my own group. I can ask in my guild, I can reach out to real life friends who play, I can form my own group of people who have all that stuff already if that's what I want. And I get it, sometimes it's easier to just hit the queue than it is to start asking around in guilds. I get it, and I find myself doing that a lot as well and just PUG'ing. But that is a choice I have to make, and if I do decide on the convenience of the dungeon queue, I also have to accept that I am in a pool of literally anyone and everyone in the game. And they all have equal rights to the dungeon queue as I do. You take the good with the bad, and it is what it is.

There doesn't need to be any changes to the queue. There don't need to be set checks, or stat checks, or skill checks, or DPS pre-parses, or anything like that. There is already a solution to the issues of the dungeon finder: pre-made groups.

Either form a pre-made, or go into the dungeon queue and deal with the fact that nobody in this game owes you anything.

And most importantly remember at the end of the day, this is just a game. None of this matters. It is something done for leisure. Once people actually remember that, then this community will be so much better.

That is very much out of context mate. The problem is:

Poor with no skill or awareness dds that queue as tanks or healers. The problem are not people that know what to do.

Normal dungeons are easy - but not so much if your tank is level 1400cp dd with 10k damage and no idea what he is doing cause he spent last week online farming for cp.

People that queue for role that allows them to get in dungeon fast cause queuing as dd take to long but never actually learned the mechanics of the game.

The problem are NOT:
People that know what to do with understanding of the game or/and its mechanics. Or low level people that are learning and are willing to do so.

Normal dungeons are easy even with the fake roles. Unless it's like Moon Hunter Keep or something. But I don't see people fake tanking those.

You are lucky not to see these people. Also I get how it can seem easy for someone with experience who slots heals and taunts. For people that want to train for their actual role that is not good direction to go into. If dds dont use their full spec of damage options but know what to do in normal dungeons - sure fair. But people that are learning might not do that. People that queue for 'random' dont choose what dungeon they end up in.

bzz86 · June 2021

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

Doc45 wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

Maybe that is so... But people that want to tank would still be able to queue as tanks and learn. The dds that just want to run ahead can just do that in 4dds groups. End game tanks would still exist and that would not change.

If a new player enters the game wanting to be a tank main, and opportunities are taken away from them to learn how to be a tank, there will be less end game tanks. That's just a fact. I'm CP1800+, been playing over 5 years, and when I see in zone or even in guild chat "Random normal, LF 3 dps", I don't x up if I'm on my healer. I can do more dps than most dedicated dd's in a pug group and slot a bit of gear more dedicated to doing so, but it's off putting. I certainly wouldn't x up on one of my tanks as they can't out dps a dedicated dd. My tanks are end game tanks and carry around enough sets without trying to also be dd's because someone in guild finder needs me to fulfill their role. I can only imagine what it feels like to a new healer or tank. To make that a part of the guild finder, in my opinion, would only push more players to dd main and exacerbate the problem.

I can see your point. But seeing how little tanks already exist in game and how people dont want to heal anymore. having queues dedicated to 3dds or 4 dds would not change much and would make it simpler for people that want to play 'normal' way.

Doubt it would change anything.

The # of DD's in game compared to tanks and healers would mean there would still be a wait even for 4 DD queues, so they would still hit up the T/ H / 2 DD queue as tanks and healers to bypass it.

Nothing would really change. Except seeing 4 DD queues would probably give off the impression to newer gamers that tanks and healers are unnecessary.

Changing the queue won't solve the problem.

indeed. that is correct. this is why there needs to be a way to lock people to roles. or at least check they can do what they say they can .... .i do realize its near impossible.

No, there shouldn't be checks or locks.

If we go that route, we might as well just take away any creative freedom people have to build their own characters.

People want all these checks and requirements for roles. The game may as well just eliminate builds altogether. No more variations on roles or classes, just make character creation simple:

*Tank
*Stamina DPS
*Magicka DPS
*Healer

No more Nightblade, Dragon Knight, Necromancer, Sorcerer, etc...

Each new class comes pre-equipped with the necessary skills; I.E. Tank has "Taunt", "Resolve", "Maim", "Breach / Fracture", "Crowd Control", "Heal"

There's no more gear farming, each new class comes pre-equipped with the sets that have been deemed "meta" and needed for content. I.E. Tank has "Alkosh" and "Yolnakhriin" already pre-equipped. No farming it, and no chance to change up. They automatically have "Crusher" enchants and "Reinforced" traits.

There's no more attributes. Each class automatically has their relevant attribute pool maxed out to 64. I.E. Tank has 64 health automatically added.

There's no more Mundus. Each class gets their necessary Mundus stone automatically added.

No race selection. Tanks are now automatically a Nord, stamina DPS are now automatically an Orc, magicka DPS are now automatically a High Elf, Healers are now automatically Argonian.

This is why I can't stand "meta" in the first place, because the meta aspires to turn the game into that. And having role checks and role locks are another step in that direction.

This is the same thing I said in the other thread from like a week ago. Nobody is entitled to other people's characters or performances. You are not entitled to other people performing up to your expectations, or building their characters to your standards. I personally will never run meta sets that other people tell me to wear or should wear, I will not let another person dictate *my* character, and nobody owes me their character build to match my expectations.

The fix to the dungeon finder is simple: Pre-made groups. If you are going to join the group finder queue, you are jumping into a queue with anyone and everyone who is playing the game. And everyone has equal right to the content.

On the same way that you are not entitled to anyone's builds or performances, they are not entitled to your time. If you don't like the group dynamic, you are free to leave the group.

I say this as a tank main who gets just as frustrated as anyone by getting groups with DPS in vet DLC dungeons that can't do the amount of damage necessary, or don't know mechanics and can't be bothered to learn because all they understand is dummy parsing.

I say this as someone who also rolls DPS and healers and hates getting fake tanks that can't aggro a mob for anything, and make the runs more tedious than they need to be all because they are greedy and want to cut the line.

I say this as someone who doesn't always have the energy to explain mechanics every single time I enter a DLC dungeon.

I get just as frustrated as anyone.

But one thing I never do is feel entitled to someone else's performance. They don't owe me a knowledge of a dungeon that they may be running for the first time. They don't owe me high DPS #'s when they may still be learning their rotation. They don't owe me set combinations that they may not have been able to collect yet, or may not want for their character because those sets aren't fun for them.

If I am not in the mood to deal with any of that, I have a simple solution. I can create my own group. I can ask in my guild, I can reach out to real life friends who play, I can form my own group of people who have all that stuff already if that's what I want. And I get it, sometimes it's easier to just hit the queue than it is to start asking around in guilds. I get it, and I find myself doing that a lot as well and just PUG'ing. But that is a choice I have to make, and if I do decide on the convenience of the dungeon queue, I also have to accept that I am in a pool of literally anyone and everyone in the game. And they all have equal rights to the dungeon queue as I do. You take the good with the bad, and it is what it is.

There doesn't need to be any changes to the queue. There don't need to be set checks, or stat checks, or skill checks, or DPS pre-parses, or anything like that. There is already a solution to the issues of the dungeon finder: pre-made groups.

Either form a pre-made, or go into the dungeon queue and deal with the fact that nobody in this game owes you anything.

And most importantly remember at the end of the day, this is just a game. None of this matters. It is something done for leisure. Once people actually remember that, then this community will be so much better.

That is very much out of context mate. The problem is:

Poor with no skill or awareness dds that queue as tanks or healers. The problem are not people that know what to do.

Normal dungeons are easy - but not so much if your tank is level 1400cp dd with 10k damage and no idea what he is doing cause he spent last week online farming for cp.

People that queue for role that allows them to get in dungeon fast cause queuing as dd take to long but never actually learned the mechanics of the game.

The problem are NOT:
People that know what to do with understanding of the game or/and its mechanics. Or low level people that are learning and are willing to do so.

Normal dungeons are easy even with the fake roles. Unless it's like Moon Hunter Keep or something. But I don't see people fake tanking those.

And it's not really out of context, because the locks and checks that you are requesting - and have been requested in the past - will impact those who are learning and willing to just as much as the fakes that you are trying to punish.

You edited your post after I already commented.... I am not suggesting not allowing people to be creative... I am suggesting not letting people to queue as tank or heal if they have no idea about what to do. I am not suggesting to do it by locing them in 1 set or 1 skill or 1 weapon. This can be done in other creative ways. For example. someone who queues as tank in dungeon has all 'heavy armour' passives unlocked. This would stop low skill level people to queue as tanks and dd-s that are high enough to have these unlocked would know what to do. That would not limit people CP - cause you can be hight CP and only have 50 skill points unlocked. And in that case you would not spend them in passives you are not currently using. Its an idea - others might be better.

amm7sb14_ESO · June 2021

bzz86 wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

Doc45 wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

Maybe that is so... But people that want to tank would still be able to queue as tanks and learn. The dds that just want to run ahead can just do that in 4dds groups. End game tanks would still exist and that would not change.

If a new player enters the game wanting to be a tank main, and opportunities are taken away from them to learn how to be a tank, there will be less end game tanks. That's just a fact. I'm CP1800+, been playing over 5 years, and when I see in zone or even in guild chat "Random normal, LF 3 dps", I don't x up if I'm on my healer. I can do more dps than most dedicated dd's in a pug group and slot a bit of gear more dedicated to doing so, but it's off putting. I certainly wouldn't x up on one of my tanks as they can't out dps a dedicated dd. My tanks are end game tanks and carry around enough sets without trying to also be dd's because someone in guild finder needs me to fulfill their role. I can only imagine what it feels like to a new healer or tank. To make that a part of the guild finder, in my opinion, would only push more players to dd main and exacerbate the problem.

I can see your point. But seeing how little tanks already exist in game and how people dont want to heal anymore. having queues dedicated to 3dds or 4 dds would not change much and would make it simpler for people that want to play 'normal' way.

Doubt it would change anything.

The # of DD's in game compared to tanks and healers would mean there would still be a wait even for 4 DD queues, so they would still hit up the T/ H / 2 DD queue as tanks and healers to bypass it.

Nothing would really change. Except seeing 4 DD queues would probably give off the impression to newer gamers that tanks and healers are unnecessary.

Changing the queue won't solve the problem.

indeed. that is correct. this is why there needs to be a way to lock people to roles. or at least check they can do what they say they can .... .i do realize its near impossible.

No, there shouldn't be checks or locks.

If we go that route, we might as well just take away any creative freedom people have to build their own characters.

People want all these checks and requirements for roles. The game may as well just eliminate builds altogether. No more variations on roles or classes, just make character creation simple:

*Tank
*Stamina DPS
*Magicka DPS
*Healer

No more Nightblade, Dragon Knight, Necromancer, Sorcerer, etc...

Each new class comes pre-equipped with the necessary skills; I.E. Tank has "Taunt", "Resolve", "Maim", "Breach / Fracture", "Crowd Control", "Heal"

There's no more gear farming, each new class comes pre-equipped with the sets that have been deemed "meta" and needed for content. I.E. Tank has "Alkosh" and "Yolnakhriin" already pre-equipped. No farming it, and no chance to change up. They automatically have "Crusher" enchants and "Reinforced" traits.

There's no more attributes. Each class automatically has their relevant attribute pool maxed out to 64. I.E. Tank has 64 health automatically added.

There's no more Mundus. Each class gets their necessary Mundus stone automatically added.

No race selection. Tanks are now automatically a Nord, stamina DPS are now automatically an Orc, magicka DPS are now automatically a High Elf, Healers are now automatically Argonian.

This is why I can't stand "meta" in the first place, because the meta aspires to turn the game into that. And having role checks and role locks are another step in that direction.

This is the same thing I said in the other thread from like a week ago. Nobody is entitled to other people's characters or performances. You are not entitled to other people performing up to your expectations, or building their characters to your standards. I personally will never run meta sets that other people tell me to wear or should wear, I will not let another person dictate *my* character, and nobody owes me their character build to match my expectations.

The fix to the dungeon finder is simple: Pre-made groups. If you are going to join the group finder queue, you are jumping into a queue with anyone and everyone who is playing the game. And everyone has equal right to the content.

On the same way that you are not entitled to anyone's builds or performances, they are not entitled to your time. If you don't like the group dynamic, you are free to leave the group.

I say this as a tank main who gets just as frustrated as anyone by getting groups with DPS in vet DLC dungeons that can't do the amount of damage necessary, or don't know mechanics and can't be bothered to learn because all they understand is dummy parsing.

I say this as someone who also rolls DPS and healers and hates getting fake tanks that can't aggro a mob for anything, and make the runs more tedious than they need to be all because they are greedy and want to cut the line.

I say this as someone who doesn't always have the energy to explain mechanics every single time I enter a DLC dungeon.

I get just as frustrated as anyone.

But one thing I never do is feel entitled to someone else's performance. They don't owe me a knowledge of a dungeon that they may be running for the first time. They don't owe me high DPS #'s when they may still be learning their rotation. They don't owe me set combinations that they may not have been able to collect yet, or may not want for their character because those sets aren't fun for them.

If I am not in the mood to deal with any of that, I have a simple solution. I can create my own group. I can ask in my guild, I can reach out to real life friends who play, I can form my own group of people who have all that stuff already if that's what I want. And I get it, sometimes it's easier to just hit the queue than it is to start asking around in guilds. I get it, and I find myself doing that a lot as well and just PUG'ing. But that is a choice I have to make, and if I do decide on the convenience of the dungeon queue, I also have to accept that I am in a pool of literally anyone and everyone in the game. And they all have equal rights to the dungeon queue as I do. You take the good with the bad, and it is what it is.

There doesn't need to be any changes to the queue. There don't need to be set checks, or stat checks, or skill checks, or DPS pre-parses, or anything like that. There is already a solution to the issues of the dungeon finder: pre-made groups.

Either form a pre-made, or go into the dungeon queue and deal with the fact that nobody in this game owes you anything.

And most importantly remember at the end of the day, this is just a game. None of this matters. It is something done for leisure. Once people actually remember that, then this community will be so much better.

That is very much out of context mate. The problem is:

Poor with no skill or awareness dds that queue as tanks or healers. The problem are not people that know what to do.

Normal dungeons are easy - but not so much if your tank is level 1400cp dd with 10k damage and no idea what he is doing cause he spent last week online farming for cp.

People that queue for role that allows them to get in dungeon fast cause queuing as dd take to long but never actually learned the mechanics of the game.

The problem are NOT:
People that know what to do with understanding of the game or/and its mechanics. Or low level people that are learning and are willing to do so.

Normal dungeons are easy even with the fake roles. Unless it's like Moon Hunter Keep or something. But I don't see people fake tanking those.

And it's not really out of context, because the locks and checks that you are requesting - and have been requested in the past - will impact those who are learning and willing to just as much as the fakes that you are trying to punish.

You edited your post after I already commented.... I am not suggesting not allowing people to be creative... I am suggesting not letting people to queue as tank or heal if they have no idea about what to do. I am not suggesting to do it by locing them in 1 set or 1 skill or 1 weapon. This can be done in other creative ways. For example. someone who queues as tank in dungeon has all 'heavy armour' passives unlocked. This would stop low skill level people to queue as tanks and dd-s that are high enough to have these unlocked would know what to do. That would not limit people CP - cause you can be hight CP and only have 50 skill points unlocked. And in that case you would not spend them in passives you are not currently using. Its an idea - others might be better.

I'm sorry, but it's not a good one.

What if someone hasn't maxed out their heavy armor skills yet? What if they are re-building a character from one role to another, and building their character and learning the role? Or they haven't gotten all the skill points they need yet to max out their heavy armor passives? There could be a number of reasons why someone hasn't maxed out their heavy armor passives yet and are still more than capable of tanking said dungeon. This will hurt the learning tank just as much, if not more, as any fakes you are attempting to punish.

There is a better solution: Form your own group! Then you don't have to worry about it period.

Scarr · June 2021

I can tank naked better than most people in heavy armor with 47 second heal pots

bzz86 · June 2021

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

Doc45 wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

Maybe that is so... But people that want to tank would still be able to queue as tanks and learn. The dds that just want to run ahead can just do that in 4dds groups. End game tanks would still exist and that would not change.

If a new player enters the game wanting to be a tank main, and opportunities are taken away from them to learn how to be a tank, there will be less end game tanks. That's just a fact. I'm CP1800+, been playing over 5 years, and when I see in zone or even in guild chat "Random normal, LF 3 dps", I don't x up if I'm on my healer. I can do more dps than most dedicated dd's in a pug group and slot a bit of gear more dedicated to doing so, but it's off putting. I certainly wouldn't x up on one of my tanks as they can't out dps a dedicated dd. My tanks are end game tanks and carry around enough sets without trying to also be dd's because someone in guild finder needs me to fulfill their role. I can only imagine what it feels like to a new healer or tank. To make that a part of the guild finder, in my opinion, would only push more players to dd main and exacerbate the problem.

I can see your point. But seeing how little tanks already exist in game and how people dont want to heal anymore. having queues dedicated to 3dds or 4 dds would not change much and would make it simpler for people that want to play 'normal' way.

Doubt it would change anything.

The # of DD's in game compared to tanks and healers would mean there would still be a wait even for 4 DD queues, so they would still hit up the T/ H / 2 DD queue as tanks and healers to bypass it.

Nothing would really change. Except seeing 4 DD queues would probably give off the impression to newer gamers that tanks and healers are unnecessary.

Changing the queue won't solve the problem.

indeed. that is correct. this is why there needs to be a way to lock people to roles. or at least check they can do what they say they can .... .i do realize its near impossible.

No, there shouldn't be checks or locks.

If we go that route, we might as well just take away any creative freedom people have to build their own characters.

People want all these checks and requirements for roles. The game may as well just eliminate builds altogether. No more variations on roles or classes, just make character creation simple:

*Tank
*Stamina DPS
*Magicka DPS
*Healer

No more Nightblade, Dragon Knight, Necromancer, Sorcerer, etc...

Each new class comes pre-equipped with the necessary skills; I.E. Tank has "Taunt", "Resolve", "Maim", "Breach / Fracture", "Crowd Control", "Heal"

There's no more gear farming, each new class comes pre-equipped with the sets that have been deemed "meta" and needed for content. I.E. Tank has "Alkosh" and "Yolnakhriin" already pre-equipped. No farming it, and no chance to change up. They automatically have "Crusher" enchants and "Reinforced" traits.

There's no more attributes. Each class automatically has their relevant attribute pool maxed out to 64. I.E. Tank has 64 health automatically added.

There's no more Mundus. Each class gets their necessary Mundus stone automatically added.

No race selection. Tanks are now automatically a Nord, stamina DPS are now automatically an Orc, magicka DPS are now automatically a High Elf, Healers are now automatically Argonian.

This is why I can't stand "meta" in the first place, because the meta aspires to turn the game into that. And having role checks and role locks are another step in that direction.

This is the same thing I said in the other thread from like a week ago. Nobody is entitled to other people's characters or performances. You are not entitled to other people performing up to your expectations, or building their characters to your standards. I personally will never run meta sets that other people tell me to wear or should wear, I will not let another person dictate *my* character, and nobody owes me their character build to match my expectations.

The fix to the dungeon finder is simple: Pre-made groups. If you are going to join the group finder queue, you are jumping into a queue with anyone and everyone who is playing the game. And everyone has equal right to the content.

On the same way that you are not entitled to anyone's builds or performances, they are not entitled to your time. If you don't like the group dynamic, you are free to leave the group.

I say this as a tank main who gets just as frustrated as anyone by getting groups with DPS in vet DLC dungeons that can't do the amount of damage necessary, or don't know mechanics and can't be bothered to learn because all they understand is dummy parsing.

I say this as someone who also rolls DPS and healers and hates getting fake tanks that can't aggro a mob for anything, and make the runs more tedious than they need to be all because they are greedy and want to cut the line.

I say this as someone who doesn't always have the energy to explain mechanics every single time I enter a DLC dungeon.

I get just as frustrated as anyone.

But one thing I never do is feel entitled to someone else's performance. They don't owe me a knowledge of a dungeon that they may be running for the first time. They don't owe me high DPS #'s when they may still be learning their rotation. They don't owe me set combinations that they may not have been able to collect yet, or may not want for their character because those sets aren't fun for them.

If I am not in the mood to deal with any of that, I have a simple solution. I can create my own group. I can ask in my guild, I can reach out to real life friends who play, I can form my own group of people who have all that stuff already if that's what I want. And I get it, sometimes it's easier to just hit the queue than it is to start asking around in guilds. I get it, and I find myself doing that a lot as well and just PUG'ing. But that is a choice I have to make, and if I do decide on the convenience of the dungeon queue, I also have to accept that I am in a pool of literally anyone and everyone in the game. And they all have equal rights to the dungeon queue as I do. You take the good with the bad, and it is what it is.

There doesn't need to be any changes to the queue. There don't need to be set checks, or stat checks, or skill checks, or DPS pre-parses, or anything like that. There is already a solution to the issues of the dungeon finder: pre-made groups.

Either form a pre-made, or go into the dungeon queue and deal with the fact that nobody in this game owes you anything.

And most importantly remember at the end of the day, this is just a game. None of this matters. It is something done for leisure. Once people actually remember that, then this community will be so much better.

That is very much out of context mate. The problem is:

Poor with no skill or awareness dds that queue as tanks or healers. The problem are not people that know what to do.

Normal dungeons are easy - but not so much if your tank is level 1400cp dd with 10k damage and no idea what he is doing cause he spent last week online farming for cp.

People that queue for role that allows them to get in dungeon fast cause queuing as dd take to long but never actually learned the mechanics of the game.

The problem are NOT:
People that know what to do with understanding of the game or/and its mechanics. Or low level people that are learning and are willing to do so.

Normal dungeons are easy even with the fake roles. Unless it's like Moon Hunter Keep or something. But I don't see people fake tanking those.

And it's not really out of context, because the locks and checks that you are requesting - and have been requested in the past - will impact those who are learning and willing to just as much as the fakes that you are trying to punish.

You edited your post after I already commented.... I am not suggesting not allowing people to be creative... I am suggesting not letting people to queue as tank or heal if they have no idea about what to do. I am not suggesting to do it by locing them in 1 set or 1 skill or 1 weapon. This can be done in other creative ways. For example. someone who queues as tank in dungeon has all 'heavy armour' passives unlocked. This would stop low skill level people to queue as tanks and dd-s that are high enough to have these unlocked would know what to do. That would not limit people CP - cause you can be hight CP and only have 50 skill points unlocked. And in that case you would not spend them in passives you are not currently using. Its an idea - others might be better.

I'm sorry, but it's not a good one.

What if someone hasn't maxed out their heavy armor skills yet? What if they are re-building a character from one role to another, and building their character and learning the role? Or they haven't gotten all the skill points they need yet to max out their heavy armor passives? There could be a number of reasons why someone hasn't maxed out their heavy armor passives yet and are still more than capable of tanking said dungeon. This will hurt the learning tank just as much, if not more, as any fakes you are attempting to punish.

There is a better solution: Form your own group! Then you don't have to worry about it period.

Instead of criticizing think about better solution. Lets say: people that are below cp160 dont need this passives maxed out. And your agument no longer stands.
People that re-build their characters at low skill level would re-set their skills.

It is just a basis of an idea - it can be improved upon. I am not holding a gun to your head telling you and ZOS this is what will happen from now on.... I am making an suggestion. My rant was to vent my annoyence.