Dungeon Finder (please fix it)

bzz86

You clearly do not understand what others and myself are saying, and simply repeating the same thing.

Oh and also you are contradicting yourself fair often I.E.:
"There are tools in the game to have the experience you want, even within the group finder. You can kick, or leave, if a group is not to your liking. I have done it many, many times in my time in ESO, when I have gotten a group that is not up to my standards." (...) "But one thing I have never done is feel entitled to the performance of random people and feel that they owe me an experience that is up to my standards."

Mate this is not about fake tank or fake healer or the fact that something is not up to standards or freedom or builds.... The tool is broken and that is is! Ok, it was not there some years ago, but you know what? Changes can be good, and if they are here some people might want to use them. You do not want changes - fine. None of us wants to force anything neither to you or ZOS or anyone else. We just want to say what we think same as you do.

Rugby_hook

To chime in, Dungeon Finder does not exist to group you with any three random players. It exists to group a tank, two DDs, and a healer together. But people lie, misrepresent themselves, and impersonate roles that they are not. Most people aren't demanding players play to their expectations. They are demanding people not lie.

One way this could be handled would be to make misrepresenting oneself against TOS and it could be a reportable offense that would be investigated. If you get a fake tank, dd, or healer you could report them to ZOS, who would then investigate. Problem with this is real players who just weren't up to someone else's standards would be reported. Filing a fake report could also be made against TOS, with disciplinary action for a pattern of false reports or queuing as a fake role.

I'm not a fan of having the game check to qualify to queue for anything, because people should have freedom to interpret their role as they see fit, as long as they get the job done. If I'm healing, I don't care if the tank has 23k health as long as they are taunting and doing what a tank needs to do at a minimum. Yes, I might need to focus heal them more, but I would rather that than have to kite a boss around.

In my opinion the way to fix the dungeon finder is to make playing overland and solo content more fun and doable on tanks and healers. Tanks should still be able to put out really good damage (not as high as DDs, but much higher than they currently can without sacrificing any resistances). On a tank or healer, I should be able to kill an overland add with maybe two to three attacks versus a dd who can likely one shot it. The only times I will ever queue for a random group on a tank or healer are with my way off meta builds that can do decent damage so I don't have to rely on the DDs.

The other issue is, outside of dungeons, trials, and group arenas, there are no ways to learn and practice tanking and healing (and DDing to an extent). This is a game design issue, but could be fixed with an undaunted storyline that would be solo similar to fighters and mages guild stories. It could consist of four person content that it gives you three companions (the four undaunted quest givers would be great) to go with you based on the role you choose. These could increase in difficulty getting players the knowledge and experience to be able to fulfill their roles in dungeons with other players. This should not be mandatory to be able to queue, because I might not want to redo on all my alts, but would help people get to learn in game what each role does. I would have loved this when I started to tank. They could even entice people to do these quests with each quest giving a skill point, transmutes, keys, and a decent amount of XP. It would almost be an extended tutorial to group content where each quest could focus on one or two things (taunting, chaining, shielding, healing, buffing group, kiting, etc).

NewBlacksmurf

I would say the game should have done away with the trinity years ago and reworked dungeons as part of One Tamriel.

It’s not the queue system as much as it’s the games design. Early on it was touted as play as you like. They keep changing things drastically and it’s just gotten to the point where it caters to a certain play style and meta…then they change it again. Instead of building upon multiple metas they nerf this and that, forcing less and less variety for roles.

Then you add in PvP stuff which just makes this all a mess to manage. It’s no wonder many players get frustrated when using the random queue.

The other side is ppl have expectations.
Just make every DD and merge some skills together which block and absorb dmg. Also merge damage skills with healing and move on

josiahva

Here is the fact: Many people use the group finder right now. This is very good...this is what you want. If you try to add restrictions in any way, less people will use the group finder...making it harder to find groups. This is bad, this is what you DON'T want. For instance, if they require me as a tank to have X resistances and stop me from being able to swap gear and skills as I see fit in a dungeon, I am going to stop using group finder entirely. If they do not let me tank as I see fit I simply will stop tanking.

I understand there are bad and/or fake tanks. The solution to this problem already exists: IF A PLAYER DOES NOT PERFORM THE ROLE THE SIGNED UP FOR TO YOUR STANDARDS, VOTE TO KICK. If the rest of the group agrees with you, the vote will pass, if the rest of the group does not, it fails. If the vote fails, you are free to leave the group and find another.

People say "But the fake tank always brings a friend to stop vote kicking". I simply do not believe this is true in any way, shape, or form. Maybe in 1% of the runs this may be true...but the fact is, if they are bringing 1 friend, then they are bringing multiple friends and not bothering with a queue at all(other than for the queue bonuses) and entering with a full group.

The reality is that when a vote-kick fails its because the others in the group disagree that X person is doing a job bad enough to warrant being kicked. Their reasons for this may vary, maybe they don't want to wait for a new tank, maybe they don't know enough about what a tank is supposed to do, maybe they just don't care, but for whatever reason they are not agreeing with your vote. The correct thing to do is simply to leave yourself if someone doesn't meet your standards and a vote kick fails...in this way you are sending the message that their behavior is not acceptable. If everyone actually used this system as it is designed, none of this would even be an issue because fake tanks would be kicked and if they weren't the group would lose the a DPS or healer....forcing the people to decide which is more valuable to them? A real DPS/healer, or a fake tank? I understand that if you quit a dungeon you get a deserter 15 minute penalty(deserter penalty needs to go, it undermines the vote system) and as a DD you are looking at a 45 minute queue sometimes....but the alternative is saying that not performing the role you signed up for is ok.

My point is the vote-kick system is just fine as it is(except for the deserter penalty which punishes leaving a bad group), its PEOPLE that need to actually use it as intended.

bzz86

josiahva wrote: »

Here is the fact: Many people use the group finder right now. This is very good...this is what you want. If you try to add restrictions in any way, less people will use the group finder...making it harder to find groups. This is bad, this is what you DON'T want. For instance, if they require me as a tank to have X resistances and stop me from being able to swap gear and skills as I see fit in a dungeon, I am going to stop using group finder entirely. If they do not let me tank as I see fit I simply will stop tanking.

I understand there are bad and/or fake tanks. The solution to this problem already exists: IF A PLAYER DOES NOT PERFORM THE ROLE THE SIGNED UP FOR TO YOUR STANDARDS, VOTE TO KICK. If the rest of the group agrees with you, the vote will pass, if the rest of the group does not, it fails. If the vote fails, you are free to leave the group and find another.

People say "But the fake tank always brings a friend to stop vote kicking". I simply do not believe this is true in any way, shape, or form. Maybe in 1% of the runs this may be true...but the fact is, if they are bringing 1 friend, then they are bringing multiple friends and not bothering with a queue at all(other than for the queue bonuses) and entering with a full group.

The reality is that when a vote-kick fails its because the others in the group disagree that X person is doing a job bad enough to warrant being kicked. Their reasons for this may vary, maybe they don't want to wait for a new tank, maybe they don't know enough about what a tank is supposed to do, maybe they just don't care, but for whatever reason they are not agreeing with your vote. The correct thing to do is simply to leave yourself if someone doesn't meet your standards and a vote kick fails...in this way you are sending the message that their behavior is not acceptable. If everyone actually used this system as it is designed, none of this would even be an issue because fake tanks would be kicked and if they weren't the group would lose the a DPS or healer....forcing the people to decide which is more valuable to them? A real DPS/healer, or a fake tank? I understand that if you quit a dungeon you get a deserter 15 minute penalty(deserter penalty needs to go, it undermines the vote system) and as a DD you are looking at a 45 minute queue sometimes....but the alternative is saying that not performing the role you signed up for is ok.

My point is the vote-kick system is just fine as it is(except for the deserter penalty which punishes leaving a bad group), its PEOPLE that need to actually use it as intended.

We need to stop with the 'vote kick'. Yes you can use it but it will only work about 50% of the time, if that... Many dds queue in pairs and one of them selects tank generally. This makes it impossible to kick these people. You saying that its only about 1% of the time is not correct. I run randoms with very bad, bad tanks that get kicked on a spot and I run randoms with very bad, bad tanks that that 1 person does not want to kick cause they came together.

I get that the problem is getting very long queue as a dd. I have been there. This is what we keep saying - the system is bad and needs fixing.

If you leave an instance after or before 1st boss and go on an alt while waiting for cool-down - yes worth leaving. If you are on your last alt run it would be a waste to quit before the end. Unless that is the damage is so poor it will take less time to wait for cool-down.

You are right - restricting people way of playing the role they want is bad idea. This is why there needs to be some sort of a way of stooping 'fakers' without slowing down players that want to do what they came for - that is a dungeon with correct roles.

I personally do not mind 'fake' tanks if they know what they are doing in a normal dungeon. I do mind people doing it when they farmed to a 1000cp in a day have 17k hp, 20 skill points, never did a dungeon, queue as tank and dont even ask what to do.

Milli_Rabbit

Doc45 wrote: »

bzz86 wrote: »

There just needs to be some sort of system that checks you actually are what you say you are.

Agreed, and there are multiple threads with people asking for that to occur. It seems to be getting worse. I queued for a vet dungeon tonight, a fairly easy pledge (WS), and there was a fake tank. Their health was 28k, so I figured they at least wouldn't go down easily, and they were CP1200 so I had hope they knew what they were doing.

When they started off with "Skip this first boss. Skip adds. Drag 'em to x," I thought it was annoying, especially with two CP50-CP200 players in the group that maybe hadn't done the dungeon countless times. However, it also gave the impression they were maybe familiar with tanking, albeit one of those tanks that thinks dragging as much as possible to one spot makes them a good tank even when it often results in losing aggro and having those behind attacked or, best case scenario, the pull results in no deaths but the npcs that were aggroed and not killed result in the group remaining in combat and unable to proceed through a door. Slow is smooth; smooth is fast.

We got through things ok despite the fake tank, got to final boss, read the scroll as it was a pledge, and realized the tank wasn't taunting. With the other two saying, "Do we have a tank?", the response from the fake tank was "Just kite the boss around". So now the three of us had to compensate for them skipping the queue, dps was low, and the boss kept getting dragged out of any dots. We wiped, and I asked the fake tank, "Do you have a taunt?". Answer: "No, does the healer have one?". I was the healer and responded, "I didn't queue as a tank". I do have a taunt, but if that boss takes awhile to go down, stamina runs out. It's a lot of pressure on a healer in HM. I started a vote to kick after that, which went through, and after waiting a few minutes for a tank replacement, decided to just go with Bastian. Turns out Bastian did a better job than the fake tank/selfish dd that wanted to save time skipping the queue and instead cost the three of us that got stuck with 'em time and frustration.

From what I've seen in the forums, the majority of players are opposed to fake tanks in pugs especially in dungeons in which the group would benefit from the fake tank at least having a taunt (though it's still frustrating as a healer to have to accommodate them by having my focus shift to keeping a low health fake tank alive). It can feel a little awkward to vote kick someone, but, without a system in place to check the person is in a role they're capable of, the system becomes the members of the group witnessing the behavior of others within the group. In my opinion, players should have some ability to adapt, give others the benefit of the doubt, and assist those learning. But when it's clear someone is completely selfish and hindering the other members of the group, never hesitate to vote to kick. That's the best way to discourage the behavior.

Pulling all of the adds to the next boss is the best strategy for random normals. Unfortunately, if the rest of your team is unfamiliar pugs, they tend to screw up that strategy as they aggro things in different directions. The intent of the strategy was never to taunt every add in the pull. It is to pull them into a Line-of-Sight situation where they all stack and then crowd control everything. However, the drawback is you are not taunting so the team needs to either stand way back or keep up with you to avoid pulling adds off of you. I see this very often. DDs run from enemies. Why? You have a healer. If they aren't doing a good job, slot a heal. It is a normal dungeon. Running away doesn't reduce your damage taken. It doesn't change the outcome. It only makes matters worse because then the tank has trouble taunting and assisting you as does the healer who now has to chase a DD to save them.

Doc45

A tank blaming people in a pug for screwing up a strategy is a bad tank if the strategy is not bought into by all members of the group. It's a tank relying on too many variables and setting up a strategy they expect others to comply with. Even with a group of four in the same guild, the strategy is a poor one unless agreed upon. When there are drawbacks to be mentioned, it's clear the strategy is flawed. If you're pulling all of the adds to the next boss in a random normal in a pug and expecting everyone to fall in line, it's worth considering they're not screwing up; you are.

Xebov

Most DDs are trash, plain and simple. When i do pledges or random daylies on my tanks the average DPS is 20k across all levels. It doesnt matter if players are CP1000+. Many simply dont care about their performance even on the lowest level. I get PvP players that come in with PvP gear and do their 5K dps. I get players with CP1000 that think Frost staves and s&b are cool and then run like chickens when they taunt the boss because they dont bother reading skill descriptions.

I dont deal with these players. If they dont get a minimum performance that creates a fluent run i simply drop the groups. I dont want to talk to them, i dont want to hear their insults or all the tiny little excuses why they cant deal damage.

amm7sb14_ESO

Doc45 wrote: »

A tank blaming people in a pug for screwing up a strategy is a bad tank if the strategy is not bought into by all members of the group. It's a tank relying on too many variables and setting up a strategy they expect others to comply with. Even with a group of four in the same guild, the strategy is a poor one unless agreed upon. When there are drawbacks to be mentioned, it's clear the strategy is flawed. If you're pulling all of the adds to the next boss in a random normal in a pug and expecting everyone to fall in line, it's worth considering they're not screwing up; you are.

As a tank main, I can agree with this.

I tank dungeons almost exclusively, and if I am in a group of guild members, I always tell them on discord if I am running a trash pull to a boss, and if I am in a PUG where discord won't be present, I "read the room". If our DPS is melting trash like microwave butter, then I will probably run it to the next boss. If the DPS is a more realistic pace, then maybe I don't run it and just let us burn what we have.

But yes, even though the tank "controls the pace" of the dungeon, the tank should still be taking the entire group into consideration.

kringled_1

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I wonder if an easy fix to some of these problems would be to disable taunt from anyone not queued as a tank in groupfinder, and simultaneously require a taunt to be slotted to queue as a tank. Sure, there might be some strats where a non Tank might find a taunt useful, but I cant think of any time that is absolutely mandatory in groupfinder dungeons. (last boss of DSA comes to mind, but not an issue). And you might have someone slot a taunt and remove it to bypass the queue, but at least you know they have one, push comes to shove.

The two times that come to mind to me where my usual dungeon crew has a dps slot taunt are Frostvault, 4th boss, and MHK HM. For Frostvault it makes it easier to separate the atro and the mage, definitely not mandatory but slightly cleaner. For MHK HM this makes it much easier to keep the small werewolves from reaching Vykosa and helps with controlling damage on her.

MirandaSharp

I don't see any problems described here that relates to the finder.. Those are all player related issues...

MirandaSharp

Why 10 transmutes for normal random? All that does is pollute the normal dungeons meant for below level 50 players with CP2000+ players just farming their daily crystals. New players aren't above CP160 anyway and probably have no use for transmute crystals, so why give that incentive to experienced players to run normal randoms?

Make it XP only for normal daily and XP+10 crystals for vet daily.

Agenericname

MirandaSharp wrote: »

Why 10 transmutes for normal random? All that does is pollute the normal dungeons meant for below level 50 players with CP2000+ players just farming their daily crystals. New players aren't above CP160 anyway and probably have no use for transmute crystals, so why give that incentive to experienced players to run normal randoms?

Make it XP only for normal daily and XP+10 crystals for vet daily.

Its not only for +CP160 players. They absolutely should give transmutes for normals, if theyre going to give them for dungeons at all, but there should be a disparity that encourages people to run vets.

Plenty of people above 160, 300, and even 1000 arent able to beat vRG or vMHK which could easily pop up in the random.

MirandaSharp

Agenericname wrote: »

MirandaSharp wrote: »

Why 10 transmutes for normal random? All that does is pollute the normal dungeons meant for below level 50 players with CP2000+ players just farming their daily crystals. New players aren't above CP160 anyway and probably have no use for transmute crystals, so why give that incentive to experienced players to run normal randoms?

Make it XP only for normal daily and XP+10 crystals for vet daily.

Its not only for +CP160 players. They absolutely should give transmutes for normals, if theyre going to give them for dungeons at all, but there should be a disparity that encourages people to run vets.

Plenty of people above 160, 300, and even 1000 arent able to beat vRG or vMHK which could easily pop up in the random.

What do low level players do with transmute crystals? Change traits on their trash pick-up gear? I know at least for myself before I was above the gear cap, there really wasn't anything I could have done with transmute crystals..

Oreyn_Bearclaw

kringled_1 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I wonder if an easy fix to some of these problems would be to disable taunt from anyone not queued as a tank in groupfinder, and simultaneously require a taunt to be slotted to queue as a tank. Sure, there might be some strats where a non Tank might find a taunt useful, but I cant think of any time that is absolutely mandatory in groupfinder dungeons. (last boss of DSA comes to mind, but not an issue). And you might have someone slot a taunt and remove it to bypass the queue, but at least you know they have one, push comes to shove.

The two times that come to mind to me where my usual dungeon crew has a dps slot taunt are Frostvault, 4th boss, and MHK HM. For Frostvault it makes it easier to separate the atro and the mage, definitely not mandatory but slightly cleaner. For MHK HM this makes it much easier to keep the small werewolves from reaching Vykosa and helps with controlling damage on her.

I have definitely done that Strat in MHK, but dont think I have in FV. But I also don't think either are mandatory. And lets be honest, what is the success rate of MHK HM for a random groupfinder, and would removing the ability to have a DPS slot a taunt really change it? Most people running DLC HMs with advanced strats arent using GF. Certainly not a perfect solution, but I do think it would help.

A middle ground might be to remove frost taunting and Pierce armor from DPS, but leave inner fire as an option. Guessing there are not a lot of people accidently using inner fire and stealing aggro, but I have absolutely seen frost staff or sword and board DPS (if that is even the right term at that point) do it and get wrecked. LOL