Start some momentum behind a DK buff

Veg · June 2021

Every day there's another thread listing 10+ things about the DK class that someone wants changed. Polls on the best or worst class are leaving DK a the bottom. Okay, we get it. The class is in a bad place right now but unless you can pick 1 or 2 things that 90% players will agree needs to be changed, then nothing will happen. So pick 1 ability and maybe 1 passive. Make it obvious that ability/passive needs a buff and explain exactly how it should be changed. Here is my example.

The Ability
Deep Breath, morph from Inhale.

The Problems

Requires a target to activate the ability. You can cast it with no target but it wont do anything and will waste 4k magic.
Initial damage and heal are far too weak for pvp. The other morph "Draw Essence" deals with this by increasing the healing to 150% of damage done.
The secondary damage to too weak to combo into your regular attacks.
The ability costs 4k magic when the only thing it accomplishes is a possible stun on channeling targets.

The solutions

No longer require a target to activate the ability
Remove the initial damage and heal completely
Increase the secondary damage. Put it in between fissure and blast bones.
Reduce the abilities cost down to the 2500-3000 magic range

Why the solutions would work
Deep Breath is currently bad at everything it does except for stunning channeling targets. By removing the healing aspect of the ability and increasing the delayed damage; we get 2 viable functions for the ability. The first is the delayed damage. It would be viable to work that damage into your regular combos almost the same way wardens and necros do so with their delayed AoE abilities. The second is the stun on channeling targets. These 2 functions do not synergize very well with each other and leave 2 draw backs to the ability. The first draw back is that you will not be able to make use of the stun if you are starting this ability before you engage your targets which is the optimal use in PvP. The second draw back is that If you do stun targets then you need to be within 8 meters of them when you cast the ability. That removes your chance to hit your targets with the delayed damage without them putting up their guard since the stun lasts 2 seconds and the timer on the damage is 2.5 seconds. So using the ability would be a decision between AoE to add to your combo or stunning people. Of course there will be some cases where the stun and damage tie together perfectly but it would still mostly be a one or the other case; around 80% of the time you chose to stun or do damage and the other 20% gives you both.

The Passive
Warmth, Ardent Flame skill line.

The Problem

The snare is extremely underwhelming for a passive. Not much else to say really.

The solution

Make this passive give the user Minor Sorcery for 20 seconds. Could be from applying the burning status effect, casting a specific ability or when applying or receive a snare.

Why the solution would work
Many people have asked for the Earthen Heart passive "Mountains Blessing" to give Minor sorcery with the Minor Brutality it already gives. I think the devs ruled this out because it would make Igneous weapons give both Major and Minor damage buffs for both magic and stamina to your whole group. So just make the minor sorcery only apply to the caster by stacking it onto the least useful passive: Warmth.

TL;DR
STOP ASKING FOR YOUR LIST OF 10+ BUFFS TO GET PUSHED THROUGH THE NEXT UPDATE. PICK 1 ABILITY AND MAYBE 1 PASSIVE SO THE DEVS AT LEAST HAVE A CHANCE OF MAKING A CHANGE WE ATUALLY WANT.

Greek_Hellspawn · June 2021

Warmth is indeed underwhelming but i don't think making it provide minor sorcery is the right solution for the passive,this is a magplar kind of thing.

Vevvev · June 2021

Make Battle Roar restore the total ultimate saved instead of the cost of the ultimate used. Bit annoying to have the 500 ultimate, but it ends up more beneficial to end the fight casting your cheaper ultimate only to quickly find out you didn't get a lot of resources for your next opponent barreling towards you.

Give Obsidian Shard a small little buff to people you heal that's pretty minor due to it being a spammable. Just giving everyone minor brutality due to the Earthen Heart passive is very.... meh. Only helps one type of player and it's the stamina DPS.

Mythreindeer · June 2021

So I’ll be the one to say it here: STAM WHIP!

Cuz I like my stamdk.

Veg · June 2021

Mythreindeer wrote: »

So I’ll be the one to say it here: STAM WHIP!

Cuz I like my stamdk.

You're gonna have to bring more than that. The devs have stated that they are against a stamina morph of flame lash. If the only thing you've got to say is" STAM WHIP" then you'll get nowhere.

Deep Breath on the other hand clearly has built in mechanics so bad they may even be unintentional. The target requirement for example. Imagine if shalk or blast bones could only be cast when you are within 8 meters of a target. That's what deep breath is right now... and the half damage and doubled cost...

AinSoph · June 2021

Deep Breath: Turn it into a unique defensive buff
Warmth: Minor buff/Heal (scaling with remaining health) when you use Ardent Flame abilities

ExistingRug61 · June 2021

Deep breath could certainly use a look at, although I don't think it should simply be reworked to be a DK delayed burst clone of blastbones/shalks. It's just making DK work like other classes. Not sure what it should do though - but at the moment I agree it does seem to be doing too many things and none of them particularly well so could use a bit of focusing of its function.

And just like whenever it gets suggested for other classes: It is unlikely that DKs will get Minor Sorcery - not because of stacking with igneous weapons, but because of the design concept in the game for years that classes get one unique minor buff. DK's get Minor Brutality. Minor Sorcery is Templar's.

I know its harping on about older design ideas but to me DKs should still be all about DoTs, and more recently the molten whip mini game. The problem is that for quite a while (apart from the one update) DoTs haven't been great as a focus and burst has been more successful, due to a lack of DoT damage and also ready access to purge for some classes. I would much prefer to see a change that somehow makes this conceptual playstyle more viable so it would need to address the current issues with DoTs.

I'm not sure if it would actually work, but I wouldn't mind seeing something like this for warmth:
Whenever one of your fire damage over time abilities that has been applied to an enemy ends (either duration complete or purged), that enemy takes X fire damage. Whenever one of your poison damage over time abilities that has been applied to an enemy ends (either duration completing or purged), that enemy takes Y poison damage. (X and Y being low/moderate amounts scaling with relevant stats, maybe in the order of burning light?)

The idea being to really reinforce use of dots, but also make them still useful when against purge. No cooldown on the proc so that it would give DK a dot dependent psuedo delayed burst ability if they can align dots to expire at the same time, and also mean purging lots of dots at once results in a decent chunk of damage.
The problem with the above is that is focused on use in PvP, and would give a damage boost to DK in PvE dps which it may not need.

Veg · June 2021

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Deep breath could certainly use a look at, although I don't think it should simply be reworked to be a DK delayed burst clone of blastbones/shalks. It's just making DK work like other classes. Not sure what it should do though - but at the moment I agree it does seem to be doing too many things and none of them particularly well so could use a bit of focusing of its function.

When morphed from inhale, the new effect for Deep Breath is more damage. I think furthering that damage is the most reasonable buff we can ask for. Blast bones and shalk came after Deep Breath and basically took everything great from the ability and dropped all the useless parts. If anything, they are copies of Deep Breath.

Inhale seems to break into 2 categories when morphed, healing and damage. Draw Essence get a 50% boost on the healing and some sustain. Deep Breath gets a small boost in damage and a possible stun. So we should just ask to have each morph be pushed further down that path. More damage and no healing for deep breath. Right now the only real difference between the two morphs is that Deep Breath can stun and Draw Essence returns magic.

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

I know its harping on about older design ideas but to me DKs should still be all about DoTs, and more recently the molten whip mini game. The problem is that for quite a while (apart from the one update) DoTs haven't been great as a focus and burst has been more successful, due to a lack of DoT damage and also ready access to purge for some classes. I would much prefer to see a change that somehow makes this conceptual playstyle more viable so it would need to address the current issues with DoTs.

I don't think DK will ever be able to use it's DoTs effectively in PvP. Simply because they're done over 14 seconds. If you had 100% pen then you would need 28k damage on your tooltip for your DoT to do 1k damage per second. Unless the timer for the DoT abilities gets down to 10s, DK's will never be able to use DoTs effectively.

A standard Mag DK may have 16-18k damage on burning embers in PvP. That's 500-640 damage per second if you have 100% pen. Applying a 10% damage buff doesn't really do anything since the damage value is so low making it difficult to further buff your damage from things like engulfing flames.

Looking back at DoT procs, they would hit for about 1.5k-2.5k per second. Even looking at soul trap, you'll do more damage per second than any DK DoT.

Joy_Division · June 2021

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Deep breath could certainly use a look at, although I don't think it should simply be reworked to be a DK delayed burst clone of blastbones/shalks. It's just making DK work like other classes. Not sure what it should do though - but at the moment I agree it does seem to be doing too many things and none of them particularly well so could use a bit of focusing of its function.

And just like whenever it gets suggested for other classes: It is unlikely that DKs will get Minor Sorcery - not because of stacking with igneous weapons, but because of the design concept in the game for years that classes get one unique minor buff. DK's get Minor Brutality. Minor Sorcery is Templar's.

I know its harping on about older design ideas but to me DKs should still be all about DoTs, and more recently the molten whip mini game. The problem is that for quite a while (apart from the one update) DoTs haven't been great as a focus and burst has been more successful, due to a lack of DoT damage and also ready access to purge for some classes. I would much prefer to see a change that somehow makes this conceptual playstyle more viable so it would need to address the current issues with DoTs.

I'm not sure if it would actually work, but I wouldn't mind seeing something like this for warmth:
Whenever one of your fire damage over time abilities that has been applied to an enemy ends (either duration complete or purged), that enemy takes X fire damage. Whenever one of your poison damage over time abilities that has been applied to an enemy ends (either duration completing or purged), that enemy takes Y poison damage. (X and Y being low/moderate amounts scaling with relevant stats, maybe in the order of burning light?)

The idea being to really reinforce use of dots, but also make them still useful when against purge. No cooldown on the proc so that it would give DK a dot dependent psuedo delayed burst ability if they can align dots to expire at the same time, and also mean purging lots of dots at once results in a decent chunk of damage.
The problem with the above is that is focused on use in PvP, and would give a damage boost to DK in PvE dps which it may not need.

I think your desired path pretty much dooms the DK to forever be mid-tier at best.

The game and the devs vision of it has changed. Wardens and Necros are not by coincidences or fluke or mistake in balancing top tier. They have always been top tier because their design fits the new vision the devs have for the game: multifunctional sills are out, formulaic standards are in, clearly defined roles for abilities are to be the norm. These principles are all contrary to what you're trying to hang onto with DK. The devs now want class skills to be reworks of each other, having the same cost, doing the same DPs, fitting into the same role - what they call standardization. So if Deep Breath falls outside of this, it will be weak in comparison because ZOS will not let skills "over-preform" or be "overloaded" in contradiction of these standards.

Deep Breath is a multifunctional skill that worked for the vision and mechanics of the game at launch. Heal, damage, Interrupt, AOE, etc., it's doing a lot. There was a reason it was the capstone ability in it's line. It's supposed to be good and powerful. but because of how the game has evolved and the dev's desire for standards, the skill has just become an expensive jack of some trades, master of nothing; cast-times have never become the staple of ESO combat as was intended, the AoE damage is meh, the heal is ok I guess if I want to tank, it's a whatever skill. It doesn't fit a desired role, certainly not well enough for specialized one, so it basically fall between stools and is mediocre. The Jack-of-all-trades nature is not worth preserving because it falls beneath the standard ZOS has set for standardized specialized skills. It should be reworked entirely to fit with the devs new vision for the game and thus be just as good as Shalks.

Why should DKs be all about DoTs? I'm going to guess the majority of DK players at launch did not choose this class to DoT up target dummies, rather they choose them because they wanted to play heroes that were akin to all mighty dragons: fearsome, formidable, terrifying creatures of legend that are all about in your face hard hitting combatants that are the furthest thing from merely being damage over time specialists. The whole DoT thing was propaganda handed down by the devs as a means to justify the heavy handed nerfs that tore away the heart of what made the class enjoyable to play. And from just a purely mechanical standpoint, why would I want to play as a DoT specialist when at least half of my opponents have access to a (good) cleanse skill?

DoTs are going to be an issue in PvP because the game has long since moved beyond attrition type combat and has for years been focused on burst damage. The only way to elevate them is either ramp them up to a ridiculously degree as ZOS did in a patch about a year ago or to introduce questionable mechanics such as the Warmth passive you suggest. By guaranteeing that players take unavoidable damage every time a player puts a status effect or DoT, that's very oppressive for an opponent because it completely invalidates their own skills or makes it such that they might kill themselves for using them. Think a Templar who cleanses at low health with a residual DK DoT on them. A DK in 3 GCDS could put three unavoidable time bombs on an opponent. No way. That's just introducing a broken and abusable mechanic.

If the devs want to make DKs shine and be more than just a PvE tank, they should stop trying to pigeonhole a theme invoking mighty dragons as DoT specialists and recognize that many of their skills no longer fit with how their vision and standards for how the game has changed.

clearly · June 2021

no wonder zos doesn't care about feedback when this sort of stuff gets posted

Firstmep · June 2021

clearly wrote: »

no wonder zos doesn't care about feedback when this sort of stuff gets posted

I'm not sure where the idea of deep breath needing a target comes from.
Takes 2 seconds of actually using the skill to realise that its a point blank aoe skill.
It's even in the description.
There is indeed a lot of misinformation out there and I wish people actually took the time and effort to look into things more closely before complaining about balance.
Sadly this trend is prevalent even among content creators where they make build videos built around buggy sets or skills etc.

Draxys · June 2021

The passives have been lame and skills have cost too much for 6 years now. I don’t have any hope in zos whatsoever.

Veg · June 2021

Firstmep wrote: »

clearly wrote: »

no wonder zos doesn't care about feedback when this sort of stuff gets posted

I'm not sure where the idea of deep breath needing a target comes from.
Takes 2 seconds of actually using the skill to realise that its a point blank aoe skill.
It's even in the description.
There is indeed a lot of misinformation out there and I wish people actually took the time and effort to look into things more closely before complaining about balance.
Sadly this trend is prevalent even among content creators where they make build videos built around buggy sets or skills etc.

Proxy det is also a point blank aoe skill. you don't need a target to activate it though. Thats what were talking about. You can be right in someone's face but because of a slight desync they will actually by 8.5 meters from you. you cast deep breath. nothing happens. no delayed burst. it should at least give you the delayed burst regardless of where you activated the ability.

Jameson18 · June 2021

Other than magicka skill cost, which if utilizing combustion properly, is only a negligible issue, I have zero complaints about my DKs. They both have all of their titles and achievements. Obtain without proc help. Including Merciless etc.

Deep breath has a heal component. That's why it is less damage. I use it frequently as one of my swappable slots. I also, including as of last evening, do not recall or have not encountered requiring a target in order to cast deep breath. Unless I am misinterpreting the context.

The warmth passive shouldn't exceed 40%. Being that it's a passive for all skills from that tree, vs. the templar jabs, only coming from the one skill, I would say opportunity cost warrants the 30%. I have no complaints about it. It's one of my favorite passives in fact.

Veg · June 2021

Jameson18 wrote: »

Other than magicka skill cost, which if utilizing combustion properly, is only a negligible issue, I have zero complaints about my DKs. They both have all of their titles and achievements. Obtain without proc help. Including Merciless etc.

Deep breath has a heal component. That's why it is less damage. I use it frequently as one of my swappable slots. I also, including as of last evening, do not recall or have not encountered requiring a target in order to cast deep breath. Unless I am misinterpreting the context.

The warmth passive shouldn't exceed 40%. Being that it's a passive for all skills from that tree, vs. the templar jabs, only coming from the one skill, I would say opportunity cost warrants the 30%. I have no complaints about it. It's one of my favorite passives in fact.

Go log onto your dk. use deep breath. observe that nothing happens. Thats what we are talking about. The time delayed burst will not activate unless you hit someone with he initial cast.

You know what, screw it. here's a video showing why deep breath needs a target to activate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-gk1LQKigM

ExistingRug61 · June 2021

Joy_Division wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Deep breath could certainly use a look at, although I don't think it should simply be reworked to be a DK delayed burst clone of blastbones/shalks. It's just making DK work like other classes. Not sure what it should do though - but at the moment I agree it does seem to be doing too many things and none of them particularly well so could use a bit of focusing of its function.

And just like whenever it gets suggested for other classes: It is unlikely that DKs will get Minor Sorcery - not because of stacking with igneous weapons, but because of the design concept in the game for years that classes get one unique minor buff. DK's get Minor Brutality. Minor Sorcery is Templar's.

I know its harping on about older design ideas but to me DKs should still be all about DoTs, and more recently the molten whip mini game. The problem is that for quite a while (apart from the one update) DoTs haven't been great as a focus and burst has been more successful, due to a lack of DoT damage and also ready access to purge for some classes. I would much prefer to see a change that somehow makes this conceptual playstyle more viable so it would need to address the current issues with DoTs.

I'm not sure if it would actually work, but I wouldn't mind seeing something like this for warmth:
Whenever one of your fire damage over time abilities that has been applied to an enemy ends (either duration complete or purged), that enemy takes X fire damage. Whenever one of your poison damage over time abilities that has been applied to an enemy ends (either duration completing or purged), that enemy takes Y poison damage. (X and Y being low/moderate amounts scaling with relevant stats, maybe in the order of burning light?)

The idea being to really reinforce use of dots, but also make them still useful when against purge. No cooldown on the proc so that it would give DK a dot dependent psuedo delayed burst ability if they can align dots to expire at the same time, and also mean purging lots of dots at once results in a decent chunk of damage.
The problem with the above is that is focused on use in PvP, and would give a damage boost to DK in PvE dps which it may not need.

I think your desired path pretty much dooms the DK to forever be mid-tier at best.

The game and the devs vision of it has changed. Wardens and Necros are not by coincidences or fluke or mistake in balancing top tier. They have always been top tier because their design fits the new vision the devs have for the game: multifunctional sills are out, formulaic standards are in, clearly defined roles for abilities are to be the norm. These principles are all contrary to what you're trying to hang onto with DK. The devs now want class skills to be reworks of each other, having the same cost, doing the same DPs, fitting into the same role - what they call standardization. So if Deep Breath falls outside of this, it will be weak in comparison because ZOS will not let skills "over-preform" or be "overloaded" in contradiction of these standards.

Deep Breath is a multifunctional skill that worked for the vision and mechanics of the game at launch. Heal, damage, Interrupt, AOE, etc., it's doing a lot. There was a reason it was the capstone ability in it's line. It's supposed to be good and powerful. but because of how the game has evolved and the dev's desire for standards, the skill has just become an expensive jack of some trades, master of nothing; cast-times have never become the staple of ESO combat as was intended, the AoE damage is meh, the heal is ok I guess if I want to tank, it's a whatever skill. It doesn't fit a desired role, certainly not well enough for specialized one, so it basically fall between stools and is mediocre. The Jack-of-all-trades nature is not worth preserving because it falls beneath the standard ZOS has set for standardized specialized skills. It should be reworked entirely to fit with the devs new vision for the game and thus be just as good as Shalks.

Why should DKs be all about DoTs? I'm going to guess the majority of DK players at launch did not choose this class to DoT up target dummies, rather they choose them because they wanted to play heroes that were akin to all mighty dragons: fearsome, formidable, terrifying creatures of legend that are all about in your face hard hitting combatants that are the furthest thing from merely being damage over time specialists. The whole DoT thing was propaganda handed down by the devs as a means to justify the heavy handed nerfs that tore away the heart of what made the class enjoyable to play. And from just a purely mechanical standpoint, why would I want to play as a DoT specialist when at least half of my opponents have access to a (good) cleanse skill?

DoTs are going to be an issue in PvP because the game has long since moved beyond attrition type combat and has for years been focused on burst damage. The only way to elevate them is either ramp them up to a ridiculously degree as ZOS did in a patch about a year ago or to introduce questionable mechanics such as the Warmth passive you suggest. By guaranteeing that players take unavoidable damage every time a player puts a status effect or DoT, that's very oppressive for an opponent because it completely invalidates their own skills or makes it such that they might kill themselves for using them. Think a Templar who cleanses at low health with a residual DK DoT on them. A DK in 3 GCDS could put three unavoidable time bombs on an opponent. No way. That's just introducing a broken and abusable mechanic.

If the devs want to make DKs shine and be more than just a PvE tank, they should stop trying to pigeonhole a theme invoking mighty dragons as DoT specialists and recognize that many of their skills no longer fit with how their vision and standards for how the game has changed.

Yeah you make some good points. I’m probably a bit stuck in the past game and like the classes being a bit more unique with their skills as opposed to the current direction of formulaic skills.

Like I said I wasn’t sure if my suggestion would really work and you rightly point out that it could be abusable. Realistically I just want to see some improvement that doesn’t just make it play with the exact same style as necro and warden.

AinSoph · June 2021

Veg wrote: »

Jameson18 wrote: »

Other than magicka skill cost, which if utilizing combustion properly, is only a negligible issue, I have zero complaints about my DKs. They both have all of their titles and achievements. Obtain without proc help. Including Merciless etc.

Deep breath has a heal component. That's why it is less damage. I use it frequently as one of my swappable slots. I also, including as of last evening, do not recall or have not encountered requiring a target in order to cast deep breath. Unless I am misinterpreting the context.

The warmth passive shouldn't exceed 40%. Being that it's a passive for all skills from that tree, vs. the templar jabs, only coming from the one skill, I would say opportunity cost warrants the 30%. I have no complaints about it. It's one of my favorite passives in fact.

Go log onto your dk. use deep breath. observe that nothing happens. Thats what we are talking about. The time delayed burst will not activate unless you hit someone with he initial cast.

You know what, screw it. here's a video showing why deep breath needs a target to activate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-gk1LQKigM

Let's clear up the obvious misunderstanding. Breath doesn't require a target to activate the skill but requires a target to do it's function. You can cast Deep Breath with no one around but it will not activate it's 2nd burst.

Mrbs77 · June 2021

I like the Draw Essence morph as it is.

ResidentContrarian · June 2021

Not even fully buffed, only igneous weapons. CP not optimized for damage (so no CP results similar).

At least be honest about skills and how much they should be scaled. Scaling them to about 1.5x would be ridiculous, and considering the skill can be used with less restriction than either shalks or blastbones (as long as you are near a target), it's too much of a buff to the skill damage-wise.

We'd just have another skill doing the damage of an ultimate and it's not healthy for the game.

There is another idea if you think your DK's damage is too low: run a real damage build. If you do that first instead of using some strange heavy armor build that you know isn't working, then maybe you might gain more support.

Spreading misinformation or pretending the change wouldn't be a massive buff? Nah.

Hotdog_23 · June 2021

Keep the pressure up about DK Inhale and maybe one day ZOS will look at it.

Thread I stated about it in April

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/570657/dk-inhale-and-its-morphs-requested-change#latest

Stay safe and also please fix the green tree ZOS (:

TrinityBreaker · June 2021

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Not even fully buffed, only igneous weapons. CP not optimized for damage (so no CP results similar).

At least be honest about skills and how much they should be scaled. Scaling them to about 1.5x would be ridiculous, and considering the skill can be used with less restriction than either shalks or blastbones (as long as you are near a target), it's too much of a buff to the skill damage-wise.

We'd just have another skill doing the damage of an ultimate and it's not healthy for the game.

There is another idea if you think your DK's damage is too low: run a real damage build. If you do that first instead of using some strange heavy armor build that you know isn't working, then maybe you might gain more support.

Spreading misinformation or pretending the change wouldn't be a massive buff? Nah.

From a PVE perspective I guess that would be fine.

From a PvP perspective, take into account battle, which would halve that to 5471 and then your target's resistance. That skill would do jack crap.

"Run a real damage build". Doable, but by the time I get my target to execute range or kill them, Im OoM. What would I do if my targets' friend rolls up on me?

the1andonlyskwex · June 2021

TrinityBreaker wrote: »

Doable, but by the time I get my target to execute range...

You're a magDK. What's execute range?

Veg · June 2021

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Not even fully buffed, only igneous weapons. CP not optimized for damage (so no CP results similar).

At least be honest about skills and how much they should be scaled. Scaling them to about 1.5x would be ridiculous, and considering the skill can be used with less restriction than either shalks or blastbones (as long as you are near a target), it's too much of a buff to the skill damage-wise.

We'd just have another skill doing the damage of an ultimate and it's not healthy for the game.

There is another idea if you think your DK's damage is too low: run a real damage build. If you do that first instead of using some strange heavy armor build that you know isn't working, then maybe you might gain more support.

Spreading misinformation or pretending the change wouldn't be a massive buff? Nah.

Deep Breath doing the same damage as fissure would not be ridiculous. It's way easier for other classes to hit those 10k+ attacks without ults. Deep Breath can barely get past 5k right now in pvp. Mag DK should absolutely be the king of AoE damage. Not your 200 mph db + [insert 10k+ spammable].

You seem to have some vendetta against mag DK's. Why would deep breath getting the above changes be crazy? Also what misinformation have I stated in this thread? I never said this wouldn't be a massive buff. We need a massive buff. Thats the whole point of this thread.

As a side note: the min maxed Deep Breath tooltip for pvp is about 12.6k with a 500 ult bahlorgs.

TrinityBreaker · June 2021

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

TrinityBreaker wrote: »

Doable, but by the time I get my target to execute range...

You're a magDK. What's execute range?

Lmao thats a good question

clearly · June 2021

Veg wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Not even fully buffed, only igneous weapons. CP not optimized for damage (so no CP results similar).

At least be honest about skills and how much they should be scaled. Scaling them to about 1.5x would be ridiculous, and considering the skill can be used with less restriction than either shalks or blastbones (as long as you are near a target), it's too much of a buff to the skill damage-wise.

We'd just have another skill doing the damage of an ultimate and it's not healthy for the game.

There is another idea if you think your DK's damage is too low: run a real damage build. If you do that first instead of using some strange heavy armor build that you know isn't working, then maybe you might gain more support.

Spreading misinformation or pretending the change wouldn't be a massive buff? Nah.

Deep Breath doing the same damage as fissure would not be ridiculous. It's way easier for other classes to hit those 10k+ attacks without ults. Deep Breath can barely get past 5k right now in pvp. Mag DK should absolutely be the king of AoE damage. Not your 200 mph db + [insert 10k+ spammable].

You seem to have some vendetta against mag DK's. Why would deep breath getting the above changes be crazy? Also what misinformation have I stated in this thread? I never said this wouldn't be a massive buff. We need a massive buff. Thats the whole point of this thread.

As a side note: the min maxed Deep Breath tooltip for pvp is about 12.6k with a 500 ult bahlorgs.

deep breath getting buffed to deep fissure or blastbones level of damage would be as ridiculous and stupid as everything else you wrote in this thread

Stx · June 2021

I don't think making deep breath a clone of other classes delayed burst or stealing templars minor sorcery are very good changes.

Veg · June 2021

clearly wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Not even fully buffed, only igneous weapons. CP not optimized for damage (so no CP results similar).

At least be honest about skills and how much they should be scaled. Scaling them to about 1.5x would be ridiculous, and considering the skill can be used with less restriction than either shalks or blastbones (as long as you are near a target), it's too much of a buff to the skill damage-wise.

We'd just have another skill doing the damage of an ultimate and it's not healthy for the game.

There is another idea if you think your DK's damage is too low: run a real damage build. If you do that first instead of using some strange heavy armor build that you know isn't working, then maybe you might gain more support.

Spreading misinformation or pretending the change wouldn't be a massive buff? Nah.

Deep Breath doing the same damage as fissure would not be ridiculous. It's way easier for other classes to hit those 10k+ attacks without ults. Deep Breath can barely get past 5k right now in pvp. Mag DK should absolutely be the king of AoE damage. Not your 200 mph db + [insert 10k+ spammable].

You seem to have some vendetta against mag DK's. Why would deep breath getting the above changes be crazy? Also what misinformation have I stated in this thread? I never said this wouldn't be a massive buff. We need a massive buff. Thats the whole point of this thread.

As a side note: the min maxed Deep Breath tooltip for pvp is about 12.6k with a 500 ult bahlorgs.

deep breath getting buffed to deep fissure or blastbones level of damage would be as ridiculous and stupid as everything else you wrote in this thread

y

lucky_Sage · June 2021

Warmth passive can increase dmg from dk class dots by 50% for targets above 50%hp
Inferno can go back to being a player based aoe give major crit on cast not passive FoO morph will increase tick speed longer it runs cauterize morph will increase radius and will purge 2 negative effects every wave.
You said two but dk is was outdated and needs a lot more work

Hotdog_23 · June 2021

Stx wrote: »

I don't think making deep breath a clone of other classes delayed burst or stealing templars minor sorcery are very good changes.

I agree, Half the damage and double the cost of other delayed burst to make it fair. The only time DK inhale skill is useful is in small groups when your teammates are distracting the other players to notice the inhale skill, or the other players just have not seen the skill before to even recognize what it is.

Right now, it is squeezed into a small narrow focus where it can be even remotely useful. Tried to use the skill and in small against unsuspecting players is the only time it is remotely useful in PVP. No PVE guide advises to even use the skill. If one could pre-load the skill, then it would be helpful for trash packs maybe. In truth it probably would not be even then because the cost is to high and damage to low.

Don’t get me wrong I would love to use the skill more but as it is right now it’s worth the slot or GCD. Just look at the damage vs. cost.

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Never see any guide build that uses the inhale skill or it’s morphs. Only seen it used once in a PVP tank player and once by someone trying to use it as a dps skill in the last year and probably longer then that if being honest.

Can it be changed into a better delayed burst type skill like the new classes have. MagDK and StamDK are near the bottom of almost every tier list of late.

Current tool tips as from https://eso-skillbook.com/

Dragonknight

Deep Breath
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Area
Range: Radius: 8 meters
Cost: 4050 Magicka
Skill description
Channel draconic energy to suck in the air around you, dealing 870 Magic Damage to nearby enemies and healing you for 100% of the damage caused. Any enemy hit that is casting is interrupted, set Off Balance, and stunned for 2 seconds. After 2.5 seconds, you exhale fire, dealing 2249 Flame Damage to nearby enemies.
New effect
Initial hit interrupts enemies that are casting. Final explosion damage increased.
Total damage 3119 Damage vs. cost output 3119/4050 = 0.77 damage for every 1 point of magic spent

Draw Essence
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Area
Range: Radius: 8 meters
Cost: 4050 Magicka
Skill description
Channel draconic energy to suck in the air around you, dealing 870 Magic Damage to nearby enemies and healing you for 150% of the damage caused. After 2.5 seconds, you exhale fire, dealing 1742 Flame Damage to nearby enemies and restoring 10% of the ability's cost for each enemy hit as Magicka.
New effect
Initial hit heals for more. Final explosion refunds Magicka for each enemy struck.
Total damage 2624 Cost vs. damage output 2624/4050 = 0.647damage for every 1 point of magic spent

For reference here are the tool tips on the 2 new classes delayed burst damage skills

Necromancer

Blighted Blastbones
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Enemy
Range: Maximum range: 28 meters, Radius: 6 meters
Cost: 2295 Stamina
Skill description
Summon a decaying skeleton from the ground after 2.5 seconds. The skeleton runs after the target and explodes when it gets close to them, dealing 4737 Disease Damage to all enemies nearby and applying Major Defile to them for 4 seconds, reducing their healing received and Health Recovery by 16% Creates a corpse on death.
New effect
Converts into a Stamina ability and deals Disease Damage. Reduces healing received on enemies hit.
Damage vs. cost output 4737/2295 = 2.064 damage for every 1 point of stamina spent

Stalking Blastbones
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Enemy
Range: Maximum range: 28 meters, Radius: 6 meters
Cost: 2700 Magicka
Skill description
Summon a flaming skeleton from the ground after 2.5 seconds. The skeleton runs after the target and explodes when it gets close to them, dealing 3600 Flame Damage to all enemies nearby. Every second the skeleton spends chasing its target increases the damage of the explosion by 10%, up to a maximum of 50% more damage. Creates a corpse on death.
New effect
The skeleton deals more damage the longer it chases the target.
Damage vs. cost output 3600/2700 = 1.333 damage for every 1 point of magic spent

Warden

Subterranean Assault
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Area
Range: Radius: 20 meters
Cost: 2066 Stamina
Skill description
Stir a group of shalk that attack after 3 seconds, dealing 4264 Poison Damage to enemies in front of you. After the shalk complete their attack, they burrow again for 3 seconds and then resurface again, dealing 4264 Poison Damage to enemies in front of you.
New effect
Converts to a Stamina ability and deals Poison Damage. The shalk burrow after attacking, and attack again after a delay.
Damage vs. cost output 4264/2066 = 2.063 damage for every 1 point of stamina spent, don't forget if fires a second time free. 4264x2/2066 = 4.125 damage for every 1 point of stamina spent

Deep Fissure
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Area
Range: Radius: 20 meters
Cost: 2430 Magicka
Skill description
Stir a group of shalk that attack after 3 seconds, dealing 3240 Magic Damage to enemies in front of you. Enemies damaged are afflicted with Major Breach, reducing their Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance by 5948 for 6 seconds.
New effect
Applies Major Breach to enemies hit, reducing their Physical and Spell Resistance.
Damage vs. cost output 3240/2430 = 1.333 damage for every 1 point of magic spent

First the cost is over the top to damage ratio when compared to the other 2 classes. Makes one wonder if when skills where standardized that DK's inhale was overlooked somehow. My proposal,

1. Get rid of the target requirement and upfront small damage and make it all burst damage at the end.
2. Change one morph to stamina and one magic based.
Stamina based can be either poison to fit the poison theme or physical damage and the Magic can be only fire damage to fit the fire theme of DK’s.
3. The secondary effects would need to be changed also but I will leave that up to you and the community to think on.

Stay safe and enjoy the journey 😊

PS. ZOS stop the micromanagement of the green tree 🥺

Amottica · June 2021

Is that a single target or AoE interrupt associated with Deep Breath? If it is an AoE interrupt then I would suggest the skill is not comparable to the two others skills OP is matching it with. An AoE interrupt is

Bl4ckR3alm93 · June 2021

If I had to choose then im definitely going with the Warmth option and I think is needed.

Deep Breath is just fine in my opinion, it just cost too much is all. When I wear BSW+Skoria+Maw, in dungeons my deep breath tooltip is over 12k flame damage in dungeons unbuffed lol. Deep Breath just needs to cost 2500-3000 like you said and leave everything else alone. Deep Breath definitely does alot of damage in PVE hell I sometimes crit over 35k with Deep Breath fully buffed and proc'ed