DK Inhale and its morphs requested change.

Hotdog_23

Never see any guide build that uses the inhale skill or it’s morphs. Only seen it used once in a PVP tank player and once by someone trying to use it as a dps skill in the last year and probably longer then that if being honest.

Can it be changed into a better delayed burst type skill like the new classes have. MagDK and StamDK are near the bottom of almost every tier list of late.

Current tool tips as from https://eso-skillbook.com/

Dragonknight

Deep Breath
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Area
Range: Radius: 8 meters
Cost: 4050 Magicka
Skill description
Channel draconic energy to suck in the air around you, dealing 870 Magic Damage to nearby enemies and healing you for 100% of the damage caused. Any enemy hit that is casting is interrupted, set Off Balance, and stunned for 2 seconds. After 2.5 seconds, you exhale fire, dealing 2249 Flame Damage to nearby enemies.
New effect
Initial hit interrupts enemies that are casting. Final explosion damage increased.
Total damage 3119 Damage vs. cost output 3119/4050 = 0.77 damage for every 1 point of magic spent

Draw Essence
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Area
Range: Radius: 8 meters
Cost: 4050 Magicka
Skill description
Channel draconic energy to suck in the air around you, dealing 870 Magic Damage to nearby enemies and healing you for 150% of the damage caused. After 2.5 seconds, you exhale fire, dealing 1742 Flame Damage to nearby enemies and restoring 10% of the ability's cost for each enemy hit as Magicka.
New effect
Initial hit heals for more. Final explosion refunds Magicka for each enemy struck.
Total damage 2624 Cost vs. damage output 2624/4050 = 0.647damage for every 1 point of magic spent

For reference here are the tool tips on the 2 new classes delayed burst damage skills

Necromancer

Blighted Blastbones
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Enemy
Range: Maximum range: 28 meters, Radius: 6 meters
Cost: 2295 Stamina
Skill description
Summon a decaying skeleton from the ground after 2.5 seconds. The skeleton runs after the target and explodes when it gets close to them, dealing 4737 Disease Damage to all enemies nearby and applying Major Defile to them for 4 seconds, reducing their healing received and Health Recovery by 16% Creates a corpse on death.
New effect
Converts into a Stamina ability and deals Disease Damage. Reduces healing received on enemies hit.
Damage vs. cost output 4737/2295 = 2.064 damage for every 1 point of stamina spent

Stalking Blastbones
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Enemy
Range: Maximum range: 28 meters, Radius: 6 meters
Cost: 2700 Magicka
Skill description
Summon a flaming skeleton from the ground after 2.5 seconds. The skeleton runs after the target and explodes when it gets close to them, dealing 3600 Flame Damage to all enemies nearby. Every second the skeleton spends chasing its target increases the damage of the explosion by 10%, up to a maximum of 50% more damage. Creates a corpse on death.
New effect
The skeleton deals more damage the longer it chases the target.
Damage vs. cost output 3600/2700 = 1.333 damage for every 1 point of magic spent

Warden

Subterranean Assault
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Area
Range: Radius: 20 meters
Cost: 2066 Stamina
Skill description
Stir a group of shalk that attack after 3 seconds, dealing 4264 Poison Damage to enemies in front of you. After the shalk complete their attack, they burrow again for 3 seconds and then resurface again, dealing 4264 Poison Damage to enemies in front of you.
New effect
Converts to a Stamina ability and deals Poison Damage. The shalk burrow after attacking, and attack again after a delay.
Damage vs. cost output 4264/2066 = 2.063 damage for every 1 point of stamina spent, don't forget if fires a second time free. 4264x2/2066 = 4.125 damage for every 1 point of stamina spent

Deep Fissure
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Area
Range: Radius: 20 meters
Cost: 2430 Magicka
Skill description
Stir a group of shalk that attack after 3 seconds, dealing 3240 Magic Damage to enemies in front of you. Enemies damaged are afflicted with Major Breach, reducing their Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance by 5948 for 6 seconds.
New effect
Applies Major Breach to enemies hit, reducing their Physical and Spell Resistance.
Damage vs. cost output 3240/2430 = 1.333 damage for every 1 point of magic spent

First the cost is over the top to damage ratio when compared to the other 2 classes. Makes one wonder if when skills where standardized that DK's inhale was overlooked somehow. My proposal,

1. Get rid of the target requirement and upfront small damage and make it all burst damage at the end.
2. Change one morph to stamina and one magic based.
Stamina based can be either poison to fit the poison theme or physical damage and the Magic can be only fire damage to fit the fire theme of DK’s.
3. The secondary effects would need to be changed also but I will leave that up to you and the community to think on.

Stay safe and enjoy the journey 😊

PS. ZOS you didn’t fix the micromanagement of the green tree 🥺

ESO_Nightingale

Doesn't look like a bad change. I like the skill so it's a shame it's not better than it is.

Also, just because you posted deep fissure I'm calling for it's damage type to be changed to frost. Magic Damage doesn't synergise as well with the warden class as well as frost damage. And the lack of frost damage skills is what limits our set options.

Ashfordd

Well, I must admit that deep breaths is a perfect skill for my solo build as it is: It provides a burst heal when more enemies are around, does decent aoe damage and interupts casters. I.e. three effects in one skill. That said I agree that magDG needs an execute ability.

oscarovegren

Make one physical/poison

phaneub17_ESO

It's somewhat useful solo in Public Dungeons, but for the most part you can't get enough enemies in range for the second half. I generally use it as my third spell so most of my targets are already near death by the time the first hit goes off and often nothing gets hit by the second burst except a few stragglers.

Sangwyne

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Dragonknight
Deep Breath
Total damage 3119 Damage vs. cost output 3119/4050 = 0.77 damage for every 1 point of magic spent

Necromancer
Blighted Blastbones
Damage vs. cost output 4737/2295 = 2.064 damage for every 1 point of stamina spent

Warden
Subterranean Assault
Damage vs. cost output 4264/2066 = 2.063 damage for every 1 point of stamina spent, don't forget if fires a second time free. 4264x2/2066 = 4.125 damage for every 1 point of stamina spent

First the cost is over the top to damage ratio when compared to the other 2 classes. Makes one wonder if when skills where standardized that DK's inhale was overlooked somehow.

See, your first mistake was in comparing DK to actually viable classes. Every single one of our abilities is just an inferior version of that from another class. Betty Netch is completely free, grants sustain, purges, and Major Sorcery/Brutality for the entire duration. DK doesn't even have a purge or sustain skill, and Igneous weapons costs 4320 Magicka but only grants Major Sorcery/Brutality. Actually, it still doesn't even grant Major Sorcery, it's been bugged for a while and is hopefully being fixed next patch, but I'm not too optimistic. Compare Wings to Crystallized Slab/Shimmering Shield, it's no contest. Or GDB to Arctic Blast. GDB doesn't even scale off max health, whereas Arctic Blast does, heals for more, also heals over time, stuns, and damages. And it's cheaper. Despite being "the DOT class", we only deal increased damage with like three skills, for which we sacrifice passives, whereas Necro deals 15% more DOT damage with all skills, takes 15% less DOT damage, and can purge them too, which DK can't. We're the only melee-only class, but receive no compensation and in fact do far less damage than ranged classes. I could go on, but there's really no point; whatever DK can do, other classes can do better.

LightYagami

Just make the 2nd hit work no matter whether the first hit reached any enemy.

Currently the 2nd hit only works if your 1st hit reached at least one opponent and sometimes this is bugged especially in Cyrodiil...

Urzigurumash

LightYagami wrote: »

Just make the 2nd hit work no matter whether the first hit reached any enemy.

Currently the 2nd hit only works if your 1st hit reached at least one opponent and sometimes this is bugged especially in Cyrodiil...

That second hit could have more power if it kept that targeting requirement, probably. The skill would have to be balanced against other similar abilities, many of which have limitations Inhale does not - they just hit much harder. On the other hand, many of them also have the benefit of being ranged, whereas Inhale is melee.

I understand the targeting requirement means it's difficult to move and cast in unison with other classes in a group.

LightYagami

Sangwyne wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Dragonknight
Deep Breath
Total damage 3119 Damage vs. cost output 3119/4050 = 0.77 damage for every 1 point of magic spent

Necromancer
Blighted Blastbones
Damage vs. cost output 4737/2295 = 2.064 damage for every 1 point of stamina spent

Warden
Subterranean Assault
Damage vs. cost output 4264/2066 = 2.063 damage for every 1 point of stamina spent, don't forget if fires a second time free. 4264x2/2066 = 4.125 damage for every 1 point of stamina spent

First the cost is over the top to damage ratio when compared to the other 2 classes. Makes one wonder if when skills where standardized that DK's inhale was overlooked somehow.

See, your first mistake was in comparing DK to actually viable classes. Every single one of our abilities is just an inferior version of that from another class. Betty Netch is completely free, grants sustain, purges, and Major Sorcery/Brutality for the entire duration. DK doesn't even have a purge or sustain skill, and Igneous weapons costs 4320 Magicka but only grants Major Sorcery/Brutality. Actually, it still doesn't even grant Major Sorcery, it's been bugged for a while and is hopefully being fixed next patch, but I'm not too optimistic. Compare Wings to Crystallized Slab/Shimmering Shield, it's no contest. Or GDB to Arctic Blast. GDB doesn't even scale off max health, whereas Arctic Blast does, heals for more, also heals over time, stuns, and damages. And it's cheaper. Despite being "the DOT class", we only deal increased damage with like three skills, for which we sacrifice passives, whereas Necro deals 15% more DOT damage with all skills, takes 15% less DOT damage, and can purge them too, which DK can't. We're the only melee-only class, but receive no compensation and in fact do far less damage than ranged classes. I could go on, but there's really no point; whatever DK can do, other classes can do better.

Absolutely. Especially magdks... I have a magdk toon in PvP and that's really painful... My stamden worked much better (or at least much easier).

Base game so-called DoT class vs DLC paid class... We know what's happening, right?

Nerf wings!
Nerf DoT!
Nerf cc!
Nerf leap!
Nerf spike!
Add cost!
DKs are too good! Nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf!

Urzigurumash

Sangwyne wrote: »

whatever DK can do, other classes can do better.

All in my opinion based on my experiences:

Throughout Greymoor and Markarth, on the Melee Stam side of PvP, since the half-Tank/half-DD was meta, we were well above Templar or NB, reasonably tied with Sorc, and just slightly behind Warden and Necro - if we take into account the full spectrum of solo / small-group / large-group.

The absence of procs brought a spotlight to DK's issues, which we all expected.

It also narrowed the meta more than any other change in ESO history, in my opinion, and it's obvious to most DKs the one and only way we could fit into this meta as a DD in optimized groups - not that it will endure - is to have Inhale brought up to line with other similar abilities.

This wasn't the case with full access to procs - DKs had niche roles as DDs in optimized 12 man groups.

Urzigurumash

So my schtick has been, as I've expressed in other threads:

Ok, we don't get to be DDs in No Proc optimized 12 man.

But, are we the superlative "Pressure Tank"? Is that even still a relevant role? Should it be?

If we had to pick one area, one role, one playstyle, to receive buffs for DKs in PvP, what do we want:

1. buffs to the Pressure Tank role - buffs to defensive passives, buffs to DoT damage, cost-reductions of Class CC skills, etc.

2. a big buff to Inhale to allow DK to function as a competent No Proc DD in optimized groups

I could go either way quite happily.

LightYagami

Urzigurumash wrote: »

LightYagami wrote: »

Just make the 2nd hit work no matter whether the first hit reached any enemy.

Currently the 2nd hit only works if your 1st hit reached at least one opponent and sometimes this is bugged especially in Cyrodiil...

That second hit could have more power if it kept that targeting requirement, probably. The skill would have to be balanced against other similar abilities, many of which have limitations Inhale does not - they just hit much harder. On the other hand, many of them also have the benefit of being ranged, whereas Inhale is melee.

I understand the targeting requirement means it's difficult to move and cast in unison with other classes in a group.

Yep this skill looks mainly designed for PvE tanking. It's not flexible in PvP because people are moving constantly and we have to ensure BOTH hits reach someone if we need the damage... The requirement is way too harsh in PvP, especially considering the cost and the mediocre damage...

Hotdog_23

[snip] no fix in patch notes or cost adjustment.

[edited for thread bumping]

YandereGirlfriend

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Bump, no fix in patch notes or cost adjustment.

Going to have to wait for the next patch, unfortunately.

ZOS doesn't ever toss in changes that aren't related already to the PTS.

But keep the pressure up to make sure that DK class issues get noticed and responded to.

ke.sardenb14_ESO

My only concern is that the DK skill bar. Adding a new ability in the mix, as instead of improving the more commonly used ones, could make one of the busiest rotations in eso, even worse.
Edit:
That being said the DK this skill if done right could be huge:
I'd change the Interrupt to an insta.cast stam morph that could apply poisoned, finally letting tank that slot it get some resources return from combustion. It'd also be nice it I had the damage to become new stamina spammable.
For the mag morph, I'd keep the heal and give it execute damage since the desperately need it.

Baphomet

Make it like detonation - the more it hits, the more damage it does. Good for countering ball-groups.

Hotdog_23

[snip] after thinking about it inhale should be a little strong then these other delay burst skills.

Primarily, because of the shorter range compared to the others. Similar to how melee attacks are 10% stronger than ranged attacks.

Stay strong and safe😊

[edited for thread bumping]

LightYagami

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Bump, no fix in patch notes or cost adjustment.

Going to have to wait for the next patch, unfortunately.

ZOS doesn't ever toss in changes that aren't related already to the PTS.

But keep the pressure up to make sure that DK class issues get noticed and responded to.

The next patch... Well... Let's see...

DK players have been waiting for multiple patches since the continuous nerfs on wings, spike, leap, cc, cost hike, and universal nerf on DoT.

Magdks almost completely vanished from PvP, only very few of them still play PvP. Death recap tells the truth. I guess magdk is one of the least frequently seen classes in PvP death recap.

Hotdog_23

[snip] looking at the secondary effects. Keep the heal on both skills and make it 30-50% of the damage done on the burst. Keeping the stun/off balance and 10% cost reduction would be to much if the skill heals for 30-50 % of the damage done.

Another idea is getting rid of the heal and let one absorb or deflect projectiles for 2 seconds. Don’t mean for them projectiles to deflected back at the target just pushed away since you are expelling air. Make since you are pushing projectiles away. The other morph can have the 2 second stun that cannot be blocked.

Stay safe and enjoy the journey 😊

PS. ZOS stop the micromanagement of the green tree 🥺
[edited for thread bumping]

Jodynn

Make one skill pure damage, make it scale like prox det, I don't need the heal.

Jodynn

And yes remove the need to hit stupid requirement.

Larcomar

Is the cost too high, sure. The cost of all dk abilities is out of whack. Should both hits be flame damage, well duh. I really don't get why one's magic. But does it need fundamental changes? No.

It's a very useful ability I use in almost all my builds, and I suspect an awful people who solo a lot do. It's also fun. I know thery're not the sort of people who post on the forums but thats quite a chunk of the playerbase.

I entirely get that magdks' are hurting in pvp, and in particular lack a burst ability. But let's be blunt; y'all campaigned for ages to get the sets that gave you that banned, and, well, welcome to the new world...

Realistically, how many peopel are still pvp'ing in ESO, and how many of those are actually gonna run a magdk, even if you turn them into warden wannabes? Unless you fundamnetally changed the class to give them not just burst, but mobility, and maybe a purge, I'd guess the majority will continue to run sorcs, wardens, necros...

Septimus_Magna

DKs lack burst, thats no secret. I always thought it would be cool if Inhale could store dmg up to X amount and release it by recasting the skill within Y seconds. Similar to NBs spectral bow but for melee range.

Joy_Division

The design of the skill is fine (in fact, the AoE heal on the initial is is something unique to the DK class and should stay as it actually makes playing a DK different). It's like one of the few skills in the game that isn;t a recolored version of an ability on another class.

The problem is, as your math points out, that it's way too expensive for what it does (a common issue with the older classes).

YandereGirlfriend

Larcomar wrote: »

Is the cost too high, sure. The cost of all dk abilities is out of whack. Should both hits be flame damage, well duh. I really don't get why one's magic. But does it need fundamental changes? No.

It's a very useful ability I use in almost all my builds, and I suspect an awful people who solo a lot do. It's also fun. I know thery're not the sort of people who post on the forums but thats quite a chunk of the playerbase.

I entirely get that magdks' are hurting in pvp, and in particular lack a burst ability. But let's be blunt; y'all campaigned for ages to get the sets that gave you that banned, and, well, welcome to the new world...

Realistically, how many peopel are still pvp'ing in ESO, and how many of those are actually gonna run a magdk, even if you turn them into warden wannabes? Unless you fundamnetally changed the class to give them not just burst, but mobility, and maybe a purge, I'd guess the majority will continue to run sorcs, wardens, necros...

Why not both?

There are two morphs available - turn Deep Breath into the pure delayed burst skill that the class needs for PvP - and reserve Draw Essence as the utility skill that heals and interrupts.

Both camps win in that situation.

Hotdog_23

New patch notes and no changes. Guess it is written that DK are to have more expensive skills compared to other classes. So much for standards of damage vs. skill cost.

Stay safe and enjoy the journey 😊

PS. ZOS stop the micromanagement of the green tree 🥺

Hotdog_23

Ignored again in the latest PTS notes.

Stay safe and enjoy the journey 😊

PS. ZOS stop the micromanagement of the green tree 🥺

ke.sardenb14_ESO

LightYagami wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

LightYagami wrote: »

Just make the 2nd hit work no matter whether the first hit reached any enemy.

Currently the 2nd hit only works if your 1st hit reached at least one opponent and sometimes this is bugged especially in Cyrodiil...

That second hit could have more power if it kept that targeting requirement, probably. The skill would have to be balanced against other similar abilities, many of which have limitations Inhale does not - they just hit much harder. On the other hand, many of them also have the benefit of being ranged, whereas Inhale is melee.

I understand the targeting requirement means it's difficult to move and cast in unison with other classes in a group.

Yep this skill looks mainly designed for PvE tanking. It's not flexible in PvP because people are moving constantly and we have to ensure BOTH hits reach someone if we need the damage... The requirement is way too harsh in PvP, especially considering the cost and the mediocre damage...

I don't really feel like it even has a place in PvE either. Since it damage scales on max mag rather then max health, the heal would be negligible, unless you had an absolutely massive trash mob wailing on you, the interrupt for mobs is really all that is useful.
The only place I could see it is solo play in PvP and PvE, but as you mentioned, fights are so mobile, that this would be hard to use.

ke.sardenb14_ESO

This is my wish list

•Switch fiery grip to draconic power skill line and Inhale to ardent flame skill line.

•Change Inhale and base morphs to all have interrupt.

•Change base morph and draw essence initial hit to do flame damage so that both hits are effectived by world in ruin. Increase initial hit by 50% to incentivize use in mobile fights.

•Change deep breath to a stamina morph that deals poison damage with no burst delay. Make damage competitive with spammable standard.

Hotdog_23

C’mon, ZOS at least drop the skill cost and bring it up to the standards you set in previous updates. It is just very expensive for its cost to damage ratio compared to other skills.

In addition, in the new patch notes you did not even try to fix the green tree mess. Please stop punishing console players that cannot use add-ons. Throw us a bone, please.

YandereGirlfriend

Another sad day for magDKs.