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ESO not MMO
m12d12_ESO
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Firor argues, does not include the more intense mechanics that are typically found in games of the category. It lacks the “tab targeting” and “mouse movement” that might be found in other, traditional MMOs and the game is also not “PC-only” or “super hardcore," which sets it apart in Firor's mind.
We have had "Targeting" with TAB for ever it seems and can be pretty hardcore. [snip]
[edited for bashing and name in title]
Edited by ZOS_Lunar on June 9, 2021 3:55PM We have had "Targeting" with TAB for ever it seems and can be pretty hardcore. [snip]
[edited for bashing and name in title]
Accts
mdzone5 cp 1051
fragtaster cp 684
lilly65 cp 652
Almalexia 212
mdzone5 cp 1051
fragtaster cp 684
lilly65 cp 652
Almalexia 212
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Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭He is correct in his description of ESO, and how it is not like other MMORPG's. But ESO is still massively-multiplayer, it's still an RPG, and it's still played online.45 -
Aristocles22✭✭✭ESO has more extensive single-player components to it than many other MMORPGs, as it's trying to be a new entry into a (mostly) single-player series and an MMO at the same time.2 -
furiouslog✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think it's because tab targeting does not actually work that supports the basis for the statement.3 -
nukk3r✭✭✭✭✭
✭m12d12_ESO wrote: »Firor argues, does not include the more intense mechanics that are typically found in games of the category. It lacks the “tab targeting” and “mouse movement” that might be found in other, traditional MMOs and the game is also not “PC-only” or “super hardcore," which sets it apart in Firor's mind.
We have had "Targeting" with TAB for ever it seems and can be pretty hardcore. [snip]
Highlighting the target and locking it for auto attack are not the same things.Edited by ZOS_Lunar on June 9, 2021 3:49PM6 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Actually, I think Firor said that he plays on console, but I don't remember which one. (and, as I recall, he is a PVP player)
He is correct in that ESO is not what people consider to be everything an MMO can be. Forum comments are evidence enough of that. By dictionary definitions, it is, but apparently ZOS wants to go their own direction, and are making it a point to do just that.Edited by Elsonso on June 9, 2021 3:32PMXBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus1 -
virtus753✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Firor did an interview quite a few years ago, around launch, saying the same thing. The key for him seems to be the qualification “traditional” — he rejects the label in terms of the generic expectations it carries.
A senior manager at ZOS said last year that the studio as a whole does consider the game an MMO now. He did not get into the semantics of labeling, though.5 -
Thechuckage✭✭✭✭✭Imagine a Honda accord (or any car)
Person A says this isn't a car, its a motorized vehicular transport.
Me - so.....a car.
Yes you can have unique features and specializations on your product, doesn't make it something outside the wider umbrella of the product.
Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck....20 -
Danikat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If this is referring to the same interview as the previous topic it's purely marketing.
He's saying it's not an MMO for the same reason Areanet say Guild Wars 2 is an MMO for people who hate MMOs. There's a relatively small pool of people who play MMOs and lots of games to share them between, but lots of people who play RPGs and other types of games who are put off by specific aspects of MMOs, so saying it's not one is just a way of trying to catch their interest and make them think it's worth looking into.PC EU player | She/her/hers | PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
"Remember in this game we call life that no one said it's fair"2 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Actually, I think Firor said that he plays on console, but I don't remember which one. (and, as I recall, he is a PVP player)
He is correct in that ESO is not what people consider to be everything an MMO can be. Forum comments are evidence enough of that. By dictionary definitions, it is, but apparently ZOS wants to go their own direction, and are making it a point to do just that.
Yeah it definitely gets placed in the "Massively-Multiplayer Role-Playing Game" category. I think what he was trying to portray was that ESO isn't a "typical" MMORPG, which is true...it is not a standard Themepark-based MMO, like WoW and SWTOR are for example. However, it definitely 100% is an MMO, by dictionary definitions.0 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Firor did an interview quite a few years ago, around launch, saying the same thing. The key for him seems to be the qualification “traditional” — he rejects the label in terms of the generic expectations it carries.
A senior manager at ZOS said last year that the studio as a whole does consider the game an MMO now. He did not get into the semantics of labeling, though.
Honestly, my interpretation for statements like that are along the lines that they don't decide what should be going into ESO based on what an MMO game would do. This gets them out of the whole "MMO A does this, so we should do something like it" mentality.
I mean, the game is clearly an MMORPG, and I am sure they also think that. I just don't think they want to use that as a design criteria.
Honestly, I with they felt this way about loot crates and monetization.
XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus4 -
virtus753✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Thechuckage wrote: »Imagine a Honda accord (or any car)
Person A says this isn't a car, its a motorized vehicular transport.
Me - so.....a car.
Yes you can have unique features and specializations on your product, doesn't make it something outside the wider umbrella of the product.
Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck....
I think a better analogy would be if a car manufacturer did not want to categorize its car as a “family car” or “sports car” or “minivan” or some other specific category. They may make a vehicle that people want to put in such a category, but they want the freedom to break the mold, so to speak, and not feel compelled to include or exclude features based on what people think of when they hear the category label.
Firor isn’t denying that the game is a game or an online game for a massive population. He’s rejecting a particular genre label and the expectations it implies.1 -
virtus753✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Firor did an interview quite a few years ago, around launch, saying the same thing. The key for him seems to be the qualification “traditional” — he rejects the label in terms of the generic expectations it carries.
A senior manager at ZOS said last year that the studio as a whole does consider the game an MMO now. He did not get into the semantics of labeling, though.
Honestly, my interpretation for statements like that are along the lines that they don't decide what should be going into ESO based on what an MMO game would do. This gets them out of the whole "MMO A does this, so we should do something like it" mentality.
I mean, the game is clearly an MMORPG, and I am sure they also think that. I just don't think they want to use that as a design criteria.
Honestly, I with they felt this way about loot crates and monetization.
Yes, my thoughts exactly.0 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Thechuckage wrote: »Imagine a Honda accord (or any car)
Person A says this isn't a car, its a motorized vehicular transport.
Me - so.....a car.
Yes you can have unique features and specializations on your product, doesn't make it something outside the wider umbrella of the product.
Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck....
I think a better analogy would be if a car manufacturer did not want to categorize its car as a “family car” or “sports car” or “minivan” or some other specific category. They may make a vehicle that people want to put in such a category, but they want the freedom to break the mold, so to speak, and not feel compelled to include or exclude features based on what people think of when they hear the category label.
Firor isn’t denying that the game is a game or an online game for a massive population. He’s rejecting a particular genre label and the expectations it implies.
People reject that the Earth is round, that doesn't mean it isn't round or a geoid.3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »He is correct in his description of ESO, and how it is not like other MMORPG's. But ESO is still massively-multiplayer, it's still an RPG, and it's still played online.
Lambert flat out says it's an MMO and that he doesn't call it an MMO because it differs so greatly from the other MMOs that were out at the time. He wantes players to come in without the expectation they'd be playing a WoW clone. That's what is meant by that comment. They all mean the same thing. It's not like those other MMOs.Edited by spartaxoxo on June 9, 2021 3:49PM3 -
orion_1981usub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Eso is not a traditional mmo, but it is a mmo. My 2013 dodge charger is not a 90s charger or a 20s charger but it is a charger.
MMOs must evolve over time but we should also be ready to move two steps back sometime in the future to correct course.
I love eso and it broke new ground, I also loved everquest and wow when they had their day. But I can't do wow classic because that's day is over but I also can't see any point in "single player mmos" that the genre is heading for. So a course correction is due in the future.4 -
Supreme_Atromancer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yeah, it seems pretty obvious what he meant with the statement. He wants to escape the baggage and expectations the genre tends to heft around. By semantic definition, its obviously still an MMO, but a game set in a world known for rich exploration and storytelling was always going to have some different values and attract a different type of player.
You just need to look at the hardcore MMO rhetoric repeated ad nauseam across all forums dealing with ESO to clearly see all the expectations that the studio might be keen to get away from.Firor did an interview quite a few years ago, around launch, saying the same thing. The key for him seems to be the qualification “traditional” — he rejects the label in terms of the generic expectations it carries.
A senior manager at ZOS said last year that the studio as a whole does consider the game an MMO now. He did not get into the semantics of labeling, though.
Spot on, though I'd like to say that even as recently as the last couple weeks there was an interview with Rich where he touches on the changing nature, and casualisation, of not only ESO, but MMOs across the board. He discusses a trend to move away from "painful grind" that older gamers really valued.
I think that more people have less time and there are a lot of things competing for our attention, so people are less inclined to want to spend many hours on tedious tasks, and so the threshold for "pain" is lower. But not only that, if the forums have told me anything over the years, there are many different games that do that hardcore MMO stuff better. So why should ESO need to compete with that when they inherited a sweet niche no one else is really doing?
ESO doesn't have to be an amazing traditional MMO experience. It needs to shine at the Elder Scrolls stuff.
Edited by Supreme_Atromancer on June 9, 2021 3:51PM2 -
SeaGtGruff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It's all semantics.
I've watched gamers streaming other Elder Scrolls games who'll say things like "I'm planning to stream all of the Elder Scrolls games-- except ESO, because I don't consider it to be an Elder Scrolls game since it's an MMO, and maybe not Battlespire and Redguard, because they aren't part of the main series." And once upon a time, before I decided to actually buy and play ESO, I felt pretty much the same way about it.
The thing is, many gamers seem to have specific ideas about what MMOs "are" and what they "should be" like.
You can see the same thing in other types of product or activity-- people tend to get fixed ideas about what a certain thing "is" and what it "should be."
For instance, what pops into your mind when I say things like "comic book," or "super hero movie," or "science fiction novel," or "fantasy novel," or "romance novel," and so forth? You probably think of specific examples of those things that you happen to be familiar with, or very well-known examples that you've heard of even though you might not have any actual experience of them. Therefore, if someone were to tell you something like "It's a western TV show," you're probably going to automatically form specific preconceived notions about it based on other "western TV shows" that you're familiar with, especially the most popular or well-known ones, such as Gunsmoke, or Bonanza, or whatever.
And people's preconceptions about a certain category of things can change overnight if a specific example of it becomes wildly popular overnight. For instance, you could probably write a college thesis examining various science fiction movies on the basis of "Before Star Wars" and "After Star Wars."
For that reason, sometimes people try to avoid referring to something as a particular type of thing because they don't want people to automatically make a lot of blanket assumptions about it.I've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than me!3 -
Thavie✭✭✭✭Aristocles22 wrote: »ESO has more extensive single-player components to it than many other MMORPGs, as it's trying to be a new entry into a (mostly) single-player series and an MMO at the same time.
Comparing to what? FFXIV story is 100% solo, and it's a HUGE part of the game, for example. GW2 can be played both solo and in a group, like ESO. Can't say much about WoW though. Having a lot of solo activities and leaving grouping to dungeons and raids is pretty much a standard. Days of needing a group to do quests passed before ESO was even released."We grew under a bad sun"5 -
virtus753✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »Thechuckage wrote: »Imagine a Honda accord (or any car)
Person A says this isn't a car, its a motorized vehicular transport.
Me - so.....a car.
Yes you can have unique features and specializations on your product, doesn't make it something outside the wider umbrella of the product.
Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck....
I think a better analogy would be if a car manufacturer did not want to categorize its car as a “family car” or “sports car” or “minivan” or some other specific category. They may make a vehicle that people want to put in such a category, but they want the freedom to break the mold, so to speak, and not feel compelled to include or exclude features based on what people think of when they hear the category label.
Firor isn’t denying that the game is a game or an online game for a massive population. He’s rejecting a particular genre label and the expectations it implies.
People reject that the Earth is round, that doesn't mean it isn't round or a geoid.
It is scientifically provable that the Earth is round (in the sense of not flat). People who reject that fact do not generally do so on the basis of the definition of the word “round.”
Whether a game fits a particular genre, on the other hand, does depend on one’s interpretation of that category as a category. Same with phrases like “pay 2 win.” If you ask five people for a definition, you’re likely to come up with at least six different answers.
For this game specifically, I can tell you that players on the forums have used the fact that they see ESO as a traditional MMO to demand features they expect from other games with that label. That’s what Firor is rejecting, those kinds of expectations and demands. It is a massively multiplayer online game, in his view, not a Massively Multiplayer Online game. It’s a semantic and generic dispute, not one of scientific fact.1 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »He is correct in his description of ESO, and how it is not like other MMORPG's. But ESO is still massively-multiplayer, it's still an RPG, and it's still played online.
Lambert flat out says it's an MMO and that he doesn't call it an MMO because it differs so greatly from the other MMOs that were out at the time. He wantes players to come in without the expectation they'd be playing a WoW clone. That's what is meant by that comment. They all mean the same thing. It's not like those other MMOs.
I get the sentiment behind his statement, that he doesn't want players who come from WoW/Lotro/Allods/Failstar/SWTOR/etc to have preconceived ideas of what ESO is like based solely on the fact that it is an MMORPG. But his statement "It's an MMO but...I'm not gonna call it that..." makes no sense to me at all. What else would you call an MMO? That's like saying " Well....my Ferrari Enzo is a sports car, sure...but...I'm not going to call it a Sports Car because...I don't want people to have a negative stigma about it......" A Ferrari Enzo can't be anything other than a sports car...it's not a bus, it's not a plane, or a train, or a mini van, or a scooter lol.
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Supreme_Atromancer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »Eso is not a traditional mmo, but it is a mmo. My 2013 dodge charger is not a 90s charger or a 20s charger but it is a charger.
MMOs must evolve over time but we should also be ready to move two steps back sometime in the future to correct course.
I love eso and it broke new ground, I also loved everquest and wow when they had their day. But I can't do wow classic because that's day is over but I also can't see any point in "single player mmos" that the genre is heading for. So a course correction is due in the future.
I dunno man, a huge number of people seem to want to play ESO as a single player game, and it seems to be a major draw for this title. I love group content but I also love going solo a lot, and when I read the forums, or reddit, zone chat, or even pugs in real time and see continuous long-standing debates, the core of every single one is not only an absolute refusal to compromise, but forcing of will and denigration of other's motivations as utterly non-valid.
I don't have any idea about this lost golden age of MMOs where everyone loved grouping all the time - it must have been an amazing experience, but with the way people carry on its absolutely no surprise that today many people just don't have the time for that and are happier in their own space. Embracing these sorts of changes MUST be the sort of evolution that you are lauding, even if you don't see the point in it yourself.1 -
Supreme_Atromancer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »But his statement "It's an MMO but...I'm not gonna call it that..." makes no sense to me at all. What else would you call an MMO? That's like saying " Well....my Ferrari Enzo is a sports car, sure...but...I'm not going to call it a Sports Car because...I don't want people to have a negative stigma about it......" A Ferrari Enzo can't be anything other than a sports car...it's not a bus, it's not a plane, or a train, or a mini van, or a scooter lol.
I think its kind of said in an interview situation in the heat of the moment, and if you take that into account, you can still intuit what he probably means - almost everyone here, including yourself has acknowledged it. I guess it kind of sux that once you go on the record of saying something in normal conversation as a one-off without the chance to edit yourself, those words are going to be diseminated, overanalysed, pulled to bits and used to fuel forum wars for ever after.
But I think we all know what he actually means.0 -
Ippokrates✭✭✭✭✭If you have time, look at the commentary video of Asmondgold to TheLazyPeon - it is not about ESO itself but it is probably one of very few reasonable contents about MMORPG genre
https://youtu.be/OPnaq9ARPcw 1 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think a better analogy would be if a car manufacturer did not want to categorize its car as a “family car” or “sports car” or “minivan” or some other specific category. They may make a vehicle that people want to put in such a category, but they want the freedom to break the mold, so to speak, and not feel compelled to include or exclude features based on what people think of when they hear the category label.
Like... maybe calling your new vehicle a sport utility vehicle, which was basically your new bigger Jeep station wagon (aka Cherokee)?For this game specifically, I can tell you that players on the forums have used the fact that they see ESO as a traditional MMO to demand features they expect from other games with that label. That’s what Firor is rejecting, those kinds of expectations and demands. It is a massively multiplayer online game, in his view, not a Massively Multiplayer Online game. It’s a semantic and generic dispute, not one of scientific fact.
Yes, and I for one, welcome this thinking. If I want to play World of Warcraft, I will go play World of Warcraft. Same with LotR, Star Wars, Final Fantasy, etc, etc, etc. I don't need ZOS bringing over the hits from each of these and trying to make ESO some MMO melting pot of different ideas from different games.
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Total in-game hours: 11321
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Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ippokrates wrote: »If you have time, look at the commentary video of Asmondgold to TheLazyPeon - it is not about ESO itself but it is probably one of very few reasonable contents about MMORPG genrehttps://youtu.be/OPnaq9ARPcw
I agree with the video commentary. It has become rather sleepy and rinse repeat has become the standard.
I think many saw how WOW worked out and just made something similar with similar monetary projections....creativity is at it's lowest for over a decade now in many different market sectors not just gaming.3 -
SeaGtGruff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭creativity is at it's lowest for over a decade now in many different market sectors not just gaming.
Try "since the history of time."
As soon as anyone creates a successful product, dozens if not hundreds or thousands of other people will come out with a copycat product to try to duplicate the first person's success. It's always been that way, and always will be. I've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than me!1 -
Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo✭✭✭✭✭
✭SeaGtGruff wrote: »creativity is at it's lowest for over a decade now in many different market sectors not just gaming.
Try "since the history of time." As soon as anyone creates a successful product, dozens if not hundreds or thousands of other people will come out with a copycat product to try to duplicate the first person's success. It's always been that way, and always will be.
Yeah of course. But let's just say now you can get ideas/themes/resources in a click of a mouse
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SeaGtGruff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SeaGtGruff wrote: »creativity is at it's lowest for over a decade now in many different market sectors not just gaming.
Try "since the history of time." As soon as anyone creates a successful product, dozens if not hundreds or thousands of other people will come out with a copycat product to try to duplicate the first person's success. It's always been that way, and always will be.
Yeah of course. But let's just say now you can get ideas/themes/resources in a click of a mouse
True! Ah, the marvels of technological progress. I've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than me!0
