The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Dps nerf next update
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ArcVelarian✭✭✭✭✭Raise the floor, don't lower the damn ceiling...
Murphy's Law of PvP : If it can be abused and or exploited, it will be abused and or exploited.5 -
ArcVelarian✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »On the original topic, DPS is looking fine next patch.
For any class that isn't DK or Templar.
Murphy's Law of PvP : If it can be abused and or exploited, it will be abused and or exploited.2 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Something I've always wondered. If animation canceling was intended, as some people are saying, why did ZOS go through the trouble of having the animations designed and implemented in the first place?
If you mean light attack weaving, it was changed several years ago so the animations do still play, sometimes with less follow-through. If ping is high then things can get cut off and look strange, but the alternative would be forcing high ping players to wait longer for a GCD as the animation plays out (with delay). There are some buggy skills like Jabs/Sweeps, but the vast majority of skills show their animation.
If you mean canceling the occasional animation when you need to dodge, bash or swap weapons, then yes part of the animation gets cut off. This is done to maintain the flow and responsiveness of combat, and the alternative would be locking out certain actions (which feels awful, just like trying to bar swap after using a cast-time ability). Most animations are still playing, since none of these actions are performed frequently (bash weave meta is long gone, and I’ll admit animations were terrible in those days).Edited by WrathOfInnos on May 18, 2021 5:03AM1 -
Ceejengine✭✭✭Jem_Kindheart wrote: »Hexi is right about all of the above. ZoS even came out and openly stated, on record, that ani canceling was unintended but they just went with it bc it was fine. The informative on the load screen was a pretty recent addition, maybe ~8 mos ~ 1 year.
Thank you. Really.
It's so incredibly frustrating when these people refuse to accept basic facts.
I'm just not understanding how people are arguing your point when the dev posts still exist. Like not only are you 100% correct but a 3 second Google search proves it...
To the original topic, I hope they keep going on the nerf train. Get rid of hybrid skills.
Give buffs only to dedicated skills.
No more abilities that grant major / minor buffs just for being slotted.
Give healers a reason to exist.Edited by Ceejengine on May 18, 2021 5:36AM1 -
Tsar_Gekkou✭✭✭✭✭
✭People don't realize that these high parse numbers are only attainable on the raid dummy that gives most of the buffs and debuffs in the game that you'd see in an optimized endgame trial group. 100k+ on the raid dummy is like 50k on the 3mil dummy that most people are familiar with. People aren't really running through random dungeons hitting 100k+ because the average pug doesn't keep track of buffs and debuffs.Xbox NA healer main
vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMoL HM | vHoF HM | vAS+2 | vCR+3 | vBRP | vSS HM | vKA HM | vRG HM |
Flawless Conqueror | Spirit Slayer | Dro-mA'thra Destroyer | Tick-Tock-Tormentor | Immortal Redeemer | Gryphon Heart | Godslayer | Dawnbringer | Planesbreaker |7 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ArcVelarian wrote: »Raise the floor, don't lower the damn ceiling...
I think the main issue is that they appeared to have lowered the floor, and left the ceiling about where it was.
Great for home design, not so great for mmo design.2 -
axi✭✭✭✭✭DPS needs a nerf. No point giving us dungeon mechanics which nobody sees.
ZOS Designs a dungeon to be completed with gear gained from previous tier of content.
People with gear form the tier above the dungeon go in.
"OMG Y IS GAYME SO EZ?!"
Why don't you go do those Vet dungeons with overland and normal dungeon gear and see how it goes.
What tiers are there?
Perfect and non perfect?
That's like 1k dps?
Would overland and base game dungeons count as a tier above dungeons?
Because I can burn through stuff in 4 person fast af with bsw/ms or medusa and 2 piece crit.
It's not tiers of gear, it's tiers of knowledge.
Knowledge and skill are the key factors in dps in this game, sorry this isn't wow.
Base game vet dungeons were not designed with weaving and animation cancelling in mind.
Weaving has been here since day 1.
Nobody knew it wasn't a bannable thing to do for a long time. That's not even the point. The dungeon mechanics and enemy HP were not designed with weaving and ani-cancelling with block in mind.
Prove this
I was actually there at launch. Even then, when no one had traits for crafting, and yellow mats were ridiculously hard to come by, the dungeons weren't hard.
They were never designed to be.
I was also playing at launch and even slightly before due to pre order early acces and few days of beta testing. Light attack weaving was confirmed to not be bannable right away. Devs themselves approved light attack weaving before the launch. The confusion was all about different players spreading different rumours based on what they thought not what they knew just like You're doing right now.1 -
axi✭✭✭✭✭
You kinda forget that it was before Open Tamriel. These zone were deserted not because they were impossibly hard but because you literally had nothing to do in them after finishing your quests and people were thinly spread across all maps, as all alliances were playing in their own "layers".The Vet zones were COMPLETELY deserted.
The forum was full of nothing but complaints that the Vet zones were too hard.
It really wasn't.2 -
axi✭✭✭✭✭Something I've always wondered. If animation canceling was intended, as some people are saying, why did ZOS go through the trouble of having the animations designed and implemented in the first place?
It wouldn't be called animation cancelling if there was no animation to cancel. -
Edited by axi on May 18, 2021 1:20PM3 -
axi✭✭✭✭✭
That just means You don't understand said post.Ceejengine wrote: »Jem_Kindheart wrote: »Hexi is right about all of the above. ZoS even came out and openly stated, on record, that ani canceling was unintended but they just went with it bc it was fine. The informative on the load screen was a pretty recent addition, maybe ~8 mos ~ 1 year.
Thank you. Really.
It's so incredibly frustrating when these people refuse to accept basic facts.
I'm just not understanding how people are arguing your point when the dev posts still exist. Like not only are you 100% correct but a 3 second Google search proves it...
Edited by axi on May 18, 2021 1:43PM0 -
madrab73✭✭✭✭✭Dragonnord wrote: »DPS nerf? Then why groups already completed in the PTS the three hard modes of the new trial?
They gave everyone base damage and higher base stats which increases relative damage further still, never mind thousands more CP.0 -
Everest_Lionheart✭✭✭✭✭The real secret to high DPS in PvE endgame content? Stack all the buffs and debufffs and maintain high uptimes on all of them. It’s group optimization and chemistry that carries us to the end of this content.
We not only know the mechanics, but also the tells for each mechanic. So those extra 4 seconds where everyone else is holding block because a mechanic is incoming we are DPSing for 3 of them before pressing block and the second the mechanic has passed we are right back on to the task at hand.
There’s lots of people hitting north of 90k that can’t complete certain content and that because it really takes a full committed team to pull off these completes. What you are swing on the trial dummy is just a benchmark anyway. It’s there to test rotations that may even be trial specific because situationally you may need to swap a skill out for a shield or run a different spamable or more/less dots. There are many moving parts to a raid that people don’t see. My GH prog group even has a mock portal setup with 8 dummies to practice downstairs rotation for vCR3.
The practice and preparation that goes into endgame PvE trails is quite serious. And here people thought we just humped dummies for a living.6 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Something I've always wondered. If animation canceling was intended, as some people are saying, why did ZOS go through the trouble of having the animations designed and implemented in the first place?
It would be ridiculous on their part not to design animations for their skills, because certainly, not all animations are cancelled in this game. Animation canceling is a result of their putting in priorities for skills, actions, light/heavy attacks, etc.
For example. Block has a higher priority than a skill. This was done to allow players to react to combat. The same is true of bar swap. Again, the dual bar nature of ESO lends it self to an offensive and defensive bar in PVP, and if you could not swap to your defensive bar when under pressure, combat would feel very clunky. This is much more about survival and reacting to combat then increasing DPS.
The vast majority of animation canceling in this game is Block Cancelling and Bar Swap Canceling. Most players do this every time they play without even realizing it. It is also the most severe form of animation canceling from a visual standpoint. In other words, these are the two types of animation canceling that clip the animations the most. Far more of the animation is lost with Block/Swap cancelling than a LA weave.
Block canceling has no impact on DPS, but it certainly helps keep people alive.
Swap canceling does increase DPS to some degree. Swap Canceling allows you to maintain the pace of your rotation when you bar swap. In other words, it allows you to always cast a skill on the second, every second, regardless of whether you bar swap between two consecutive skills.
Swap cancelling actually is good for low DPS. Again most do it without realizing it. If swap cancelling were removed, you would need to be more precise in your bar swaps when doing a rotation, which would only serve to hurt the floor. If you want to get a sense of what this game would be like with no swap cancelling, play mag sorc with hard cast Frags as a spammable. It is really clunky, and even someone like myself, that can pull 100k DPS on a dummy and has been playing sorc for years, has trouble with it. The window for your next sequence of commands following a hard cast frags is MUCH smaller, and only serves to increase the difficulty of the rotation.
Removing swap cancelling would not help the floor, I assure you. Removing block canceling wouldn't either. Both would result in a drop in survivability and require more precise rotations, so if anything, removing these would actually increase the power gap they are trying to shrink. Dead DPS do No DPS and better players adapt far more easily.
LA weaving is a bit of a different animal. Yes, the devs did not intend for this to be the case, but again, it was identified, discussed and embraced buy the devs very early in the development of this game. Skills are designed around it. Sets are designed around it. PVE difficulty and achievements are designed with it in mind. PVP is balanced around it. Etc...
And here is the kicker, it is barely animation canceling unless you have very high ping, certainly not as severe as block or swap canceling. They have even redesigned the LA animation to compensate for this, so much less of the animation is clipped. When I light weave, I see my staff shoot forward and I see the fireball (or whatever element) leave my staff. I then immediately go into the next skill. Their might be a bit of follow through that is clipped, but it is minimal. The same is true with melee weapons or a bow. You still see the attack fire, the blade hit the opponent, etc., you just dont have as much follow through or delay between the next skill.
To me it makes sense. Countless games have combos and that sort of thing that do something very similar. Would not a master swordsmen in this fantasy universe sprinkle in light attacks with his blade between more powerful skills? Also, if we couldn't weave light attacks, they would be useless. You would never light attack if it had the same opportunity cost as a skill. You would only heavy attack as an opening or if low on resources.
LA weaving adds 20 (maybe 25%) to DPS and doubles the actions per minute. It has already been tuned down over the years. Remove AC, 100K DPS would still pull 80k+, and there would be a lot more dead pugs lying on the floor. I honestly think the power gap would increase. Most low DPS AC more than they realize, and better players are generally better at adapting. Combat would also go from very fluid to extremely clunky overnight.
I do believe that the power of light attacks is relevant to the balance discussion. The devs clearly do as well because it has been adjusted over the years. And it is certainly possible that LA damage is too high in the current balance equation, but removing AC completely would change combat at the most fundamental level, and Good players would adapt far better than bad players. It is certainly NOT a magic solution to eliminating the power gap. In fact, the smart money says that removing AC would actually increase the gap.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on May 18, 2021 5:38PM6 -
etchedpixels✭✭✭✭✭
✭Remove the NEED to use weaving and animation cancel.
You don't need it- it's icing on the cake.
Real Example:
On real world solo single target (so not dummy and nobody else providing buffs) my stamplar does 40K or so if I'm using both bars, 35K if I am using one bar, and about 30K if I'm not bothering to light attack. Now my weaving isn't that great so maybe there's another 5K difference in there for a 'god mode' weaver but I doubt it's that much.
That's 5 seconds versus 4 seconds to take down a delve boss and given I run defiler all but the serious (so cc immune) bosses are still in the defiler stun/cc when they are nothing but a pair of smoking boots - without weaving
Why
- 64 in stamina
- Buff food to match that choice
- The right skills on the front bar (100% uptime on major savagery, major brutality, fighters guild and medium armour passives)
- The right gear (7 pieces purple divines deadly and defiler plus maul if solo for penetration)
- The right mundus for solo stamina (lover)
- To some extent the right CP points although that's mostly not going to change the weaving because they either scale all attacks or favour the jabs anyway.
In PvP or under pressure there's actually a serious use case for not weaving as well because you can block and use non channelled skills. Templar jabs alas is channelled so it's less useful there.
There's a serious conversation to be had about how complex it is to set up a toon well in ESO, but weaving - no. If your DPS is sucky then learning to weave alone will not send you on some magical path to awesome. You'd be far better off investing the time getting other things straight.
Edited by etchedpixels on May 18, 2021 5:57PMToo many toons not enough time1 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DPS needs a nerf. No point giving us dungeon mechanics which nobody sees.
ZOS Designs a dungeon to be completed with gear gained from previous tier of content.
People with gear form the tier above the dungeon go in.
"OMG Y IS GAYME SO EZ?!"
Why don't you go do those Vet dungeons with overland and normal dungeon gear and see how it goes.
What tiers are there?
Perfect and non perfect?
That's like 1k dps?
Would overland and base game dungeons count as a tier above dungeons?
Because I can burn through stuff in 4 person fast af with bsw/ms or medusa and 2 piece crit.
It's not tiers of gear, it's tiers of knowledge.
Knowledge and skill are the key factors in dps in this game, sorry this isn't wow.
Base game vet dungeons were not designed with weaving and animation cancelling in mind.
Weaving has been here since day 1.
Nobody knew it wasn't a bannable thing to do for a long time. That's not even the point. The dungeon mechanics and enemy HP were not designed with weaving and ani-cancelling with block in mind.
Prove this
I was actually there at launch. Even then, when no one had traits for crafting, and yellow mats were ridiculously hard to come by, the dungeons weren't hard.
They were never designed to be.
Um What? Based game dungeons (only dungeons in game near launch) were significantly harder than they are now. There have been sweeping nerfs to PVE difficulty over the years. Trials were even harder. How long did it take people to get passed Manti when VSO released? How long did it take groups to clear VMOL, and how much longer did it take to get a HM clear? How much longer after that to get a no death? Trifectas are now done on patch day. Compare VMA difficulty at launch to the latest solo arena, Vateshran. The later is a joke in terms of difficulty.Septimus_Magna wrote: »DPS needs a nerf. No point giving us dungeon mechanics which nobody sees.
ZOS Designs a dungeon to be completed with gear gained from previous tier of content.
People with gear form the tier above the dungeon go in.
"OMG Y IS GAYME SO EZ?!"
Why don't you go do those Vet dungeons with overland and normal dungeon gear and see how it goes.
What tiers are there?
Perfect and non perfect?
That's like 1k dps?
Would overland and base game dungeons count as a tier above dungeons?
Because I can burn through stuff in 4 person fast af with bsw/ms or medusa and 2 piece crit.
It's not tiers of gear, it's tiers of knowledge.
Knowledge and skill are the key factors in dps in this game, sorry this isn't wow.
Base game vet dungeons were not designed with weaving and animation cancelling in mind. If they beefed up the HP pools to DLC vet dungeon levels, newbies would get demolished.
Seriously this again, people on the forums have showed dps parses of 80k without light attacks. You dont need to weave or animation cancel for good dps. Weaving was widely accepted before the first expansions (Craglorn and version II of some base game dungeons) were introduced so everything after that designed with weaving in mind, not that it makes such a big difference.
Yes it's so "widely accepted" even today that 90% of players have no idea what you're talking about when you mention it.
This game is targeted for casual Elder Scrolls fans, the "average player" isn't good at the game, because they aren't here to be good at the game, and the game needs to be designed and balanced with it's target audience in mind.
If you're looking for a challenge, PvE is not it. Never has been and never will be. They got rid of Vet levels and zones because the vast majority of their playerbase COULD NOT DO IT. The Vet zones were COMPLETELY deserted.
The base game and normal dungeons are designed with that target audience in mind. But ZOS devs are not so narrow minded. They realized that because they have different skill levels among their player base, they need different difficutly levels with their content. That is why we have normal, vet, and various HMs.
Normal content is typically not challenging, but there are ceratinly aspects of PVE that are. Do you have all the trifectas from trials? Have you done all the HM achievements in every dungeon? Maybe you have, but to act like those arent difficult is nonsense. Are trials today as difficult as trials of 4 years ago at launch, admittedly no, but to say its all a faceroll is simply not true.
And while I will never attribute any single cause to the removal of vet levels, I think the biggest influence was the barrier to entry. It took too much XP to level a character to VR10,12, 14, 16 (as they increased the cap), and none of it was transferable between alts. Most players did not like this, and many, myself included, voiced that opinion publicly. Up until VR removal, Crag was on of the most crowded zones in Tamriel.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on May 18, 2021 6:17PM5 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ArcVelarian wrote: »Raise the floor, don't lower the damn ceiling...
I think the main issue is that they appeared to have lowered the floor, and left the ceiling about where it was.
Great for home design, not so great for mmo design.
Really the skill ceiling should be pretty high, almost unreachable really. Let players go as high as their brain and fingers can take them, that's how you have competition...some people will just be better at doing something than everyone else around them. But raising the floor so players who are less skilled, achieve similar performance is just bad design imo.1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DPS needs a nerf. No point giving us dungeon mechanics which nobody sees.
ZOS Designs a dungeon to be completed with gear gained from previous tier of content.
People with gear form the tier above the dungeon go in.
"OMG Y IS GAYME SO EZ?!"
Why don't you go do those Vet dungeons with overland and normal dungeon gear and see how it goes.
What tiers are there?
Perfect and non perfect?
That's like 1k dps?
Would overland and base game dungeons count as a tier above dungeons?
Because I can burn through stuff in 4 person fast af with bsw/ms or medusa and 2 piece crit.
It's not tiers of gear, it's tiers of knowledge.
Knowledge and skill are the key factors in dps in this game, sorry this isn't wow.
Base game vet dungeons were not designed with weaving and animation cancelling in mind.
Weaving has been here since day 1.
Let's be clear weaving was unintended.
I'm pretty sure that light attack weaving was intended. It was designed to be the equivalent of the "auto attack" from other games, only they wanted players to have to do it manually in order to make the combat feel more active.
It was using animation canceling itself to speed up rotations that wasn't intended, like using block or bar swaps to purposely cancel skill animations etc.Edited by Jeremy on May 18, 2021 6:29PM0 -
Alurria✭✭✭✭✭
✭DPS needs a nerf. No point giving us dungeon mechanics which nobody sees.
ZOS Designs a dungeon to be completed with gear gained from previous tier of content.
People with gear form the tier above the dungeon go in.
"OMG Y IS GAYME SO EZ?!"
Why don't you go do those Vet dungeons with overland and normal dungeon gear and see how it goes.
What tiers are there?
Perfect and non perfect?
That's like 1k dps?
Would overland and base game dungeons count as a tier above dungeons?
Because I can burn through stuff in 4 person fast af with bsw/ms or medusa and 2 piece crit.
It's not tiers of gear, it's tiers of knowledge.
Knowledge and skill are the key factors in dps in this game, sorry this isn't wow.
Base game vet dungeons were not designed with weaving and animation cancelling in mind.
Weaving has been here since day 1.
Let's be clear weaving was unintended.
I'm pretty sure that light attack weaving was intended. It was designed to be the equivalent of the "auto attack" from other games, only they wanted players to have to do it manually in order to make the combat feel more active.
It was using animation canceling itself to speed up rotations that wasn't intended, like using block or bar swaps to purposely cancel skill animations etc.
I think i made a mistake when posting it should have read AC weaving, but what you say makes sense to me. What i remember is AC LA weaving was unintended if I am saying that right.1 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »ArcVelarian wrote: »Raise the floor, don't lower the damn ceiling...
I think the main issue is that they appeared to have lowered the floor, and left the ceiling about where it was.
Great for home design, not so great for mmo design.
Really the skill ceiling should be pretty high, almost unreachable really. Let players go as high as their brain and fingers can take them, that's how you have competition...some people will just be better at doing something than everyone else around them. But raising the floor so players who are less skilled, achieve similar performance is just bad design imo.
The problem is designing content. Do you design for the majority on the bottom? Is it cost effective to make content that only the few at the top will use?
The closer the ceiling/floor gap is, the better economic return as content opens up for everybody.
Also, if players insist on wanting a large gap, get ready for lots of “fake” dds in dungeons. You want a large gap, well there are consequences to having a large gap.Edited by BlueRaven on May 18, 2021 8:03PM3 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »ArcVelarian wrote: »Raise the floor, don't lower the damn ceiling...
I think the main issue is that they appeared to have lowered the floor, and left the ceiling about where it was.
Great for home design, not so great for mmo design.
Really the skill ceiling should be pretty high, almost unreachable really. Let players go as high as their brain and fingers can take them, that's how you have competition...some people will just be better at doing something than everyone else around them. But raising the floor so players who are less skilled, achieve similar performance is just bad design imo.
The problem is designing content. Do you design for the majority on the bottom? Is it cost effective to make content that only the few at the top will use?
The closer the ceiling/floor gap is, the better economic return as content opens up for everybody.
Also, if players insist on wanting a large gap, get ready for lots of “fake” dds in dungeons. You want a large gap, well there are consequences to having a large gap.
Consequences that only affect those still close to the floor.1 -
MaskiusSoul ShrivenOf course AC wasn't intended.
Can you imagine designing this beautiful and aesthetic world, with intricate stories, full voice acting and advanced combat animations (compared to 2014 standards *cough* WoW...) and then deciding - hey, lets make it possible for our players to look like a stop animation movie from the 1930ties when in combat - it will look hilarious and will fit into our vision perfectly!
Come on now...
Just because something wasn't a bannable offense, like AC and weaving, is in no way an indication that it was by design - it was a forced reaction/stance to something ZOS were unable to remedy.
And also, if you truly measure your "skill" as a player on how close you can hit these muscle memory spam clicks to the optimal mark - in an environment filled with differing latency - then we have a serious gap in our definition of "skill"...
Give me a tactical aware and intelligent player any day instead. Too bad it matters less with dps blocks in pve and mindless passive button smashing in pvp. Ah well.
I do remember the bot invasion as the main reason for my departure in 2014 though - not the game itself.Edited by Maskius on May 18, 2021 8:16PM1 -
Dragonnord✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Dragonnord wrote: »DPS nerf? Then why groups already completed in the PTS the three hard modes of the new trial?PigofSteel wrote: »This is when 2 elite guilds log in just to break records and make couple youtube builds than other mortal players suffer for months.
nuff said
Two? Check YouTube and Twitch streams for past two weeks and you will confirm that several groups, plenty, (not only two), have completed them, and more groups each day that passes, so the dps is there.
If people don't know how to dps enough then that's not a nerf, that's people not having enough dps.
Edited by Dragonnord on May 18, 2021 9:14PMSERVER: NA | PLATFORM: PC | OS: Windows 10 | CLIENT: Steam | ESO PLUS: Yes2 -
Adaarye✭✭✭I hit 90k+ with an unoptimize setup(without mythics), so 100k+ should still be possible, plus the new mythic is pretty strong especially in vss. And last path godslayer time were under 24mins so even with a dps nerf its still be more than possible just not that easy.
Until it gets nerfed
1 -
ehgzSoul ShrivenI bet there's someone out there with a keyboard that can macro who's macroed the heck out of light attack weaving.
So he's just pressing one button.
.0 -
pklemming✭✭✭✭✭
✭I understand In the soon coming update overall dps for all will be nerfed. No more capable of hitting 100K+ dps. Maybe around 80Kdps max? Maybe because ZOS is not happy with people getting the "Godslayer" & more & more will get it. Maybe "Godslayer" is not suppose to be attainable but as a motivation for high end players to try to get it but would be impossible therefore they will continue playing, especially the elite players. The title "Godslayer" meaning is "God" cannot be slayed therefore it will be impossible to get it?
Y'know, it would be nice if people did some form of research before posting random anecdotal information. From PTS tests, I am getting around the same dps as before.
If I were using proc sets, then, yes, dps will be down. I am not happy about the 'balancing' of pve damage to help pvp.... yet, again. Noone hitting over 80k dps, though? I guess am just special, then....2 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DPS needs a nerf. No point giving us dungeon mechanics which nobody sees.
ZOS Designs a dungeon to be completed with gear gained from previous tier of content.
People with gear form the tier above the dungeon go in.
"OMG Y IS GAYME SO EZ?!"
Why don't you go do those Vet dungeons with overland and normal dungeon gear and see how it goes.
What tiers are there?
Perfect and non perfect?
That's like 1k dps?
Would overland and base game dungeons count as a tier above dungeons?
Because I can burn through stuff in 4 person fast af with bsw/ms or medusa and 2 piece crit.
It's not tiers of gear, it's tiers of knowledge.
Knowledge and skill are the key factors in dps in this game, sorry this isn't wow.
Base game vet dungeons were not designed with weaving and animation cancelling in mind.
Weaving has been here since day 1.
Let's be clear weaving was unintended.
I'm pretty sure that light attack weaving was intended. It was designed to be the equivalent of the "auto attack" from other games, only they wanted players to have to do it manually in order to make the combat feel more active.
It was using animation canceling itself to speed up rotations that wasn't intended, like using block or bar swaps to purposely cancel skill animations etc.
I’m also pretty sure light attack weaving was intended. The devs are also pretty sure it’s intended. And it’s always been something we have to do manually.
Block or bar swap clipping the visual animation does not result in speeding up rotations. You’re still locked out from casting anything for the 1s GCD. I don’t think block even affects the animations anymore, they still play while blocking. Anything about using animation canceling to cast skills faster is a myth spread relentlessly over several years by those who don’t understand the combat system. The only affect of animation canceling is retaining control of your character and allow core combat functions like block, bash, bar swap, synergies, potions and dodge without waiting for skill animations to finish.
It’s very easy to demonstrate how bad the game would feel without it, just use Dark Flare, Crystal Fragments, Jabs/Sweeps, Uppercut, Snipe, Dark Conversion, or any short cast-time skill repeatedly. All of these can be cast once per second, just like instant skills, but they prevent use of anything listed above. As a result they make combat extremely clunky and unresponsive, and much higher skill and better timing is required to use them effectively. I don’t understand how anyone could genuinely want this, yet every day there’s another confused forum post asking to remove animation canceling...3 -
axi✭✭✭✭✭I bet there's someone out there with a keyboard that can macro who's macroed the heck out of light attack weaving.
So he's just pressing one button.
.
And he gets barely anything out of it since rotation if far more i portant than light attack weaving. Not even mentioning desyncs where programmed clicking may cause light attack to not get into queue and only ability will be fired. All of the people I know that used macros quite simply sucked when it comes to DPS. You can't magically program something to replace experience in real content.Edited by axi on May 19, 2021 12:00AM0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »DPS needs a nerf. No point giving us dungeon mechanics which nobody sees.
ZOS Designs a dungeon to be completed with gear gained from previous tier of content.
People with gear form the tier above the dungeon go in.
"OMG Y IS GAYME SO EZ?!"
Why don't you go do those Vet dungeons with overland and normal dungeon gear and see how it goes.
What tiers are there?
Perfect and non perfect?
That's like 1k dps?
Would overland and base game dungeons count as a tier above dungeons?
Because I can burn through stuff in 4 person fast af with bsw/ms or medusa and 2 piece crit.
It's not tiers of gear, it's tiers of knowledge.
Knowledge and skill are the key factors in dps in this game, sorry this isn't wow.
Base game vet dungeons were not designed with weaving and animation cancelling in mind.
Weaving has been here since day 1.
Let's be clear weaving was unintended.
I'm pretty sure that light attack weaving was intended. It was designed to be the equivalent of the "auto attack" from other games, only they wanted players to have to do it manually in order to make the combat feel more active.
It was using animation canceling itself to speed up rotations that wasn't intended, like using block or bar swaps to purposely cancel skill animations etc.
I’m also pretty sure light attack weaving was intended. The devs are also pretty sure it’s intended. And it’s always been something we have to do manually.
Block or bar swap clipping the visual animation does not result in speeding up rotations. You’re still locked out from casting anything for the 1s GCD. I don’t think block even affects the animations anymore, they still play while blocking. Anything about using animation canceling to cast skills faster is a myth spread relentlessly over several years by those who don’t understand the combat system. The only affect of animation canceling is retaining control of your character and allow core combat functions like block, bash, bar swap, synergies, potions and dodge without waiting for skill animations to finish.
It’s very easy to demonstrate how bad the game would feel without it, just use Dark Flare, Crystal Fragments, Jabs/Sweeps, Uppercut, Snipe, Dark Conversion, or any short cast-time skill repeatedly. All of these can be cast once per second, just like instant skills, but they prevent use of anything listed above. As a result they make combat extremely clunky and unresponsive, and much higher skill and better timing is required to use them effectively. I don’t understand how anyone could genuinely want this, yet every day there’s another confused forum post asking to remove animation canceling...
I don't know or particulary care one way or the other to be honest. I'm just relating what all of the many "animation canceling" guides recommend on the internet, who suggest using blocks, bar swaps and other methods to speed your rotations up. Here is an example:
https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrEzecnUKRg3zkAYQRXNyoA;_ylu=Y29sbwNiZjEEcG9zAzQEdnRpZANDMTYyMl8xBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1621409959/RO=10/RU=https://dottzgaming.com/eso-guides/general/animation-cancelling-guide//RK=2/RS=jm8F39mkGHABDlvfjpxQ18DMPnk-
Light Attack
Light Attack > Skill
Dodge
Light Attack > Dodge
Skill > Dodge
Light Attack > Skill > Dodge
Block (keep in mind – some skills can be used while blocking)
Light Attack > Block
Skill > Block
Light Attack > Skill > Block
Bash
Light Attack > Bash
Skill > Bash
Light Attack > Skill > Bash
Swap
Light Attack > Swap
Skill > Swap
Light Attack > Skill > Swap
And this is an example of sort of thing that was never intended, to intentionally use block and bar swaps etc. to speed up rotations. Now if you want to debate whether or not they actually do speed up rotations, you can take that up with Dottz Gaming and all the others. Though I should point out the developers must think there is at least some issue here, because I know they have at least made some changes to how block functions in an effort to cut back on this stuff. But in any case: this is that part of "animation canceling" that was never intended. Now whether or not it actually does anything I'll leave for others to debate.
What I am fairly certain of however (because I remember reading a developer post about it a long time ago) was that weaving light attacks in between skills was by design and meant to be a more active approach to the auto attacks you find on other MMORPGs. But intentionally using block, swapping bars etc. to intentionally cut out animations and speed up rotations (whether it actually does or not) is the part of it they never intended. So I think when discussing animation canceling that distinction needs to be made. So that's what I was doing. I wasn't attempting to add validity to whether or not these kind of techniques actually do work or add DPS. I think their stupid and won't be using them regardless. But I do weave light attacks, and believe that compliments the gameplay.Edited by Jeremy on May 19, 2021 12:10AM0 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Jeremy Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that whole rant was directed at you, I partially agreed with your post. As for the guide you posted and others like it, they are some combination of wrong or outdated.
Block canceling has never increased DPS, it did once clip animations, but didn’t allow the use of another skill any faster. That one was a common misconception about 4 years ago, I remember some DPS looking silly with their blocks between every skill when target dummies were originally added, but it never helped their parse
. Now it doesn’t even visually affect animations so it surprises me to hear anyone talk about block “canceling”.
Bash canceling increased DPS by the bash damage, which was pretty high for a while. It still didn’t speed anything up, but it did cut off animations awkwardly. Personally I’m glad this was fixed and the bash weave meta killed last year.
Bar swap canceling still does clip animations, but has no effect on speed of casts. I guess if you compare it to an alternate reality where every bar swap consumed a GCD the current system is a DPS gain, but I don’t think anyone wants bar swaps consuming a GCD. With the current system it has to clip the animation because it wouldn’t make sense to see your character doing an Endless Hail motion after they’ve already pulled out their swords for example.
In general, the devs have made some good updates to the animations. Light attack weaving shows animations, block casting shows animations (it’s a mystery why so many haven’t noticed this), bash weaving is discouraged except during an interruptible mechanic. But none of these were to fix some massive DPS gain from circumventing the GCD, they all just made the game look smoother, and telegraphed attacks more accurately to opponents in PVP.Edited by WrathOfInnos on May 19, 2021 4:59AM1