Reminder to Zos: DKs still need big changes

MrZeDark · May 2021

So, one of my stam dk buds parses 106k on pts atm.

My mag friend parses 95k live - but strictly works with Zen+Behemoth for trial Content. His support makes us much stronger than his losses.

I think DK is very powerful if built right, and comfortably fits into a support dps role while still being competitive.

ke.sardenb14_ESO · May 2021

Excelsus wrote: »

I just want stam DKs to have a coherant vision. So many half changes over the years. Are we still vomit dragons? Fire benders? Earth benders? So many awkward skill redesigns from different eras of eso development and nothing meshes. I remember when eso first realized people wanted stamina builds and we got the infamous poop claw and belch skills, people complained, it was weird how we had a mix of fire and poison but there was a hope theyd keep fleshing out stamdks. 4 years later we have... an awkward earth bender stomp. Poison whip. Poison inhale. Flames of oblivion turns poison if your stam is higher, a real passive rework to make stamdks the poison class.

👏Preach👏

Everest_Lionheart · May 2021

MrZeDark wrote: »

So, one of my stam dk buds parses 106k on pts atm.

My mag friend parses 95k live - but strictly works with Zen+Behemoth for trial Content. His support makes us much stronger than his losses.

I think DK is very powerful if built right, and comfortably fits into a support dps role while still being competitive.

I run Zen’s on mine as well. But Encratis always seems to end up on a tank in any of my group comps. It’s never my choice, but the raid lead wants it there. Three different teams vAS2, vSS HM, vCR3 Encratis always on a tank.

Athrys5 · May 2021

MrZeDark wrote: »

So, one of my stam dk buds parses 106k on pts atm.

My mag friend parses 95k live - but strictly works with Zen+Behemoth for trial Content. His support makes us much stronger than his losses.

I think DK is very powerful if built right, and comfortably fits into a support dps role while still being competitive.

It's not only about PvE tho

MrZeDark · May 2021

Aldenn wrote: »

MrZeDark wrote: »

So, one of my stam dk buds parses 106k on pts atm.

My mag friend parses 95k live - but strictly works with Zen+Behemoth for trial Content. His support makes us much stronger than his losses.

I think DK is very powerful if built right, and comfortably fits into a support dps role while still being competitive.

It's not only about PvE tho

Fair point

MrZeDark · May 2021

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

MrZeDark wrote: »

So, one of my stam dk buds parses 106k on pts atm.

My mag friend parses 95k live - but strictly works with Zen+Behemoth for trial Content. His support makes us much stronger than his losses.

I think DK is very powerful if built right, and comfortably fits into a support dps role while still being competitive.

I run Zen’s on mine as well. But Encratis always seems to end up on a tank in any of my group comps. It’s never my choice, but the raid lead wants it there. Three different teams vAS2, vSS HM, vCR3 Encratis always on a tank.

That’s because people don’t think outside the box in strategy anymore. They copy what they’ve read, or seen on a YouTube video. I find more value on the DPS- who is supposed to be in group with other dps. Than a tank who is going to move, to chase a boss or deal with adds that aren’t a target yet.

Like in vAS +1, poison boss jumps and doesn’t like to move so well. Typically depending on dps comp - you’re still on main boss until mini comes or your on spheres to break boss immunity. The tank isn’t running too spheres with a troublesome pull, but you may be headed toward them.

So every time the mini leaps, encrat leaves the group - reducing its up time on DPS. Every time dps have to move towards a sphere - the tank is still by boss, and encrat ticks off.

——————

In vSS same idea, except OT holding atros too far for anyone to get encrat, MT is also too far.

Even in the scope of last boss, it would take both tanks to run it if there is a swap. And during add phase tanks have to move away from their group so they can regroup the adds - while DPS is staying ok on them too DPS.

——————-

There are fights where it can work on a tank with no question, but I see it with a higher buff up time on DPS.

Urzigurumash · May 2021

Excelsus wrote: »

I just want stam DKs to have a coherant vision. So many half changes over the years. Are we still vomit dragons? Fire benders? Earth benders? So many awkward skill redesigns from different eras of eso development and nothing meshes. I remember when eso first realized people wanted stamina builds and we got the infamous poop claw and belch skills, people complained, it was weird how we had a mix of fire and poison but there was a hope theyd keep fleshing out stamdks. 4 years later we have... an awkward earth bender stomp. Poison whip. Poison inhale. Flames of oblivion turns poison if your stam is higher, a real passive rework to make stamdks the poison class.

I like Vomit Dragon.

I probably would've been content just spamming the old Wrecking Blow forever, and I was a little reluctant to entertain this green claw thing when it was first given to us, but in retrospect I think it made quite a bit of sense to unify both DKs into some kind of "Pressure Tank" role - i.e. block-casting DoTs as the framework of the playstyle.

I'm all for rejuvenation of this role, personally, but it would come at the offense of the sensibilities of many regarding dealing damage in heavy armor, dealing damage while blocking, not constantly kiting being remotely acceptable, etc., and would be blatant heresy against this alleged "holy trinity".

Everest_Lionheart · May 2021

MrZeDark wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

MrZeDark wrote: »

So, one of my stam dk buds parses 106k on pts atm.

My mag friend parses 95k live - but strictly works with Zen+Behemoth for trial Content. His support makes us much stronger than his losses.

I think DK is very powerful if built right, and comfortably fits into a support dps role while still being competitive.

I run Zen’s on mine as well. But Encratis always seems to end up on a tank in any of my group comps. It’s never my choice, but the raid lead wants it there. Three different teams vAS2, vSS HM, vCR3 Encratis always on a tank.

That’s because people don’t think outside the box in strategy anymore. They copy what they’ve read, or seen on a YouTube video. I find more value on the DPS- who is supposed to be in group with other dps. Than a tank who is going to move, to chase a boss or deal with adds that aren’t a target yet.

Like in vAS +1, poison boss jumps and doesn’t like to move so well. Typically depending on dps comp - you’re still on main boss until mini comes or your on spheres to break boss immunity. The tank isn’t running too spheres with a troublesome pull, but you may be headed toward them.

So every time the mini leaps, encrat leaves the group - reducing its up time on DPS. Every time dps have to move towards a sphere - the tank is still by boss, and encrat ticks off.

——————

In vSS same idea, except OT holding atros too far for anyone to get encrat, MT is also too far.

Even in the scope of last boss, it would take both tanks to run it if there is a swap. And during add phase tanks have to move away from their group so they can regroup the adds - while DPS is staying ok on them too DPS.

——————-

There are fights where it can work on a tank with no question, but I see it with a higher buff up time on DPS.

That’s exactly how I see it too. If I’m to be a buff machine let me give all the buffs that I can. This frees the tank up to give even more buffs.

I’ve been pushing this idea on stam dps toons as well. When I’m running my Stamden I’m pretty much on the boss the whole time. Put me in Alkosh to boost the other stam toons or let the mag toons slot less points in pen to get their resistances up so they can survive. None of the tanks want to hear it though and would rather complain about wearing the set ☠️

Lughlongarm · May 2021

IDK,

My PTS server is full of Stam DK's just destroying everyone in duels. Not sure why....

xylena_lazarow · May 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I like Vomit Dragon. I'm all for rejuvenation of this role, personally, but it would come at the offense of the sensibilities of many regarding dealing damage in heavy armor

I wish there was at least some more lore behind vomit dragons, rather than feeling like it was something they arbitrarily threw together to fit the CP system. I'll agree that tanky attrition builds are part of a healthy PvP metagame, but this isn't something ZOS has ever been able to balance.

They were once considered oppressive enough for defiles and most dots to essentially be deleted from the game. Blocking feels fair when you're being zerged, but in evenly numbered fights, barring mistakes or skill gap, one side can go hard on the block healing to turtle indefinitely, and there's nothing the other side can really do about it. And of course, we've had metas where glass cannons vanish because they offer no advantage over the tanky damage god build.

MrZeDark · May 2021

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

MrZeDark wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

MrZeDark wrote: »

So, one of my stam dk buds parses 106k on pts atm.

My mag friend parses 95k live - but strictly works with Zen+Behemoth for trial Content. His support makes us much stronger than his losses.

I think DK is very powerful if built right, and comfortably fits into a support dps role while still being competitive.

I run Zen’s on mine as well. But Encratis always seems to end up on a tank in any of my group comps. It’s never my choice, but the raid lead wants it there. Three different teams vAS2, vSS HM, vCR3 Encratis always on a tank.

That’s because people don’t think outside the box in strategy anymore. They copy what they’ve read, or seen on a YouTube video. I find more value on the DPS- who is supposed to be in group with other dps. Than a tank who is going to move, to chase a boss or deal with adds that aren’t a target yet.

Like in vAS +1, poison boss jumps and doesn’t like to move so well. Typically depending on dps comp - you’re still on main boss until mini comes or your on spheres to break boss immunity. The tank isn’t running too spheres with a troublesome pull, but you may be headed toward them.

So every time the mini leaps, encrat leaves the group - reducing its up time on DPS. Every time dps have to move towards a sphere - the tank is still by boss, and encrat ticks off.

——————

In vSS same idea, except OT holding atros too far for anyone to get encrat, MT is also too far.

Even in the scope of last boss, it would take both tanks to run it if there is a swap. And during add phase tanks have to move away from their group so they can regroup the adds - while DPS is staying ok on them too DPS.

——————-

There are fights where it can work on a tank with no question, but I see it with a higher buff up time on DPS.

That’s exactly how I see it too. If I’m to be a buff machine let me give all the buffs that I can. This frees the tank up to give even more buffs.

I’ve been pushing this idea on stam dps toons as well. When I’m running my Stamden I’m pretty much on the boss the whole time. Put me in Alkosh to boost the other stam toons or let the mag toons slot less points in pen to get their resistances up so they can survive. None of the tanks want to hear it though and would rather complain about wearing the set ☠️

Keep pushing it. Analyze the battlefield and view how buff up time is impacted or could be improved. Get your teams thinking instead of mimicking. Our optimized groups have got so good doing just this. Questioning what the ‘meta’ is in both strategy and build - then using pure math to figure out how it can be better improved.

I like tank club, but their word is not god. We do somethings similarly, but we have identified misses in some strategies.

Realistically, it seems more like ‘meta’ strat is a stepping stone to learn mechanics. After you know what to expect, it’s everyone’s job to improve upon it - and make it work specifically for your avg crew. Pugs, don’t count in this case - that’s just do as you can… but pugs are a great way for you to break from the norm to see if you can get better uptimes than your normal group comp- so you have evidence to prove something is amiss.

Extinct_Solo_Player · May 2021

Lughlongarm wrote: »

IDK,

My PTS server is full of Stam DK's just destroying everyone in duels. Not sure why....

must be some bad players then lol

Urzigurumash · May 2021

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I like Vomit Dragon. I'm all for rejuvenation of this role, personally, but it would come at the offense of the sensibilities of many regarding dealing damage in heavy armor

I wish there was at least some more lore behind vomit dragons, rather than feeling like it was something they arbitrarily threw together to fit the CP system. I'll agree that tanky attrition builds are part of a healthy PvP metagame, but this isn't something ZOS has ever been able to balance.

They were once considered oppressive enough for defiles and most dots to essentially be deleted from the game. Blocking feels fair when you're being zerged, but in evenly numbered fights, barring mistakes or skill gap, one side can go hard on the block healing to turtle indefinitely, and there's nothing the other side can really do about it. And of course, we've had metas where glass cannons vanish because they offer no advantage over the tanky damage god build.

All true. I just hear some dissonance when I see the following statements made in rapid succession:

1. StamDK is best played with medium armor and a bow

2. StamDK is a C- class, in need of an exhaustive re-work

Urzigurumash · May 2021

It's like hearing

1. Tires are boring, I ride bare rims only

2. My car is a terribly uncomfortable ride, what a piece of junk

Wing · May 2021

MrZeDark wrote: »

So, one of my stam dk buds parses 106k on pts atm.

My mag friend parses 95k live - but strictly works with Zen+Behemoth for trial Content. His support makes us much stronger than his losses.

I think DK is very powerful if built right, and comfortably fits into a support dps role while still being competitive.

im glad when you can sit in melee range of a stationary target that you can sit and take your time applying multiple dots that are not being cleansed that you can perfectly use ults to maximize regen passive usage on a target that cannot: cloak, roll dodge, streak, block, heal through, pressure, fight back, CC, burst you, fight from range, los, get to low hp then heal to full because you cannot execute.

. . .that you can get some good results, well done.

seriously if people think we just want DK to be better then other classes im fine with a class change token instead, ill take that option, if ZOS cannot be bothered to make it competitive and people dont want it to be competitive lets see how everyone feels when EVERYONE is playing magsorcs, stamcros, and stamdens.

when everyone will be crutching, nobody will be crutching.

ke.sardenb14_ESO · May 2021

@MrZeDark
It is great that you are content, I think that is spectacular. I sit at 80k on my DK, and I was proud to get him that high, since it is the class I know best, and it is character I've played since release.

The issue is that the time and effort required to get the DK to a 80k, equates to 100k on my sorc, and 110 on my templar, even when my DK is in better quality gear, and that is the issue.

What I'm saying is that the DK can't compete, but outside of a few options, it doesn't perform as well as the other base classes, let alone the paywall classes. I don't think it is unreasonable for ZoS to make changes to the class to bring it to standard.

YandereGirlfriend · May 2021

MrZeDark wrote: »

So, one of my stam dk buds parses 106k on pts atm.

My mag friend parses 95k live - but strictly works with Zen+Behemoth for trial Content. His support makes us much stronger than his losses.

I think DK is very powerful if built right, and comfortably fits into a support dps role while still being competitive.

Out of curiosity, is your friend using Toggle to hit that parse on their stamDK?

Overall though, I agree with basically all of what you say about doing the research and the math for yourself rather than genuflecting automatically to the popular builds. There is always untapped power out there to be found by those with the inclination to seek it.

However, it's also clear that you and your group are quite skilled and are not exactly representative of the general player base. So while your friend can parse well on their stamDK, that should not necessarily be held up as a shield against buffs for the class that are designed to raise the floor for the average player (...of course, the developers' ability to deliver those types of targeted buffs is somewhat questionable, but that's a separate matter).

BattleAxe · May 2021

Simplest change vastly improve stam dk reverse execute. So attacks hit harder the higher enemies health is which will level out then ramp back up with bloodthirsty kicking in. Doing this for dk will go a long way in improving dk damage. Also STAMWHIP and bring back sea of flames ability.

Everest_Lionheart · May 2021

ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »

@MrZeDark
It is great that you are content, I think that is spectacular. I sit at 80k on my DK, and I was proud to get him that high, since it is the class I know best, and it is character I've played since release.

The issue is that the time and effort required to get the DK to a 80k, equates to 100k on my sorc, and 110 on my templar, even when my DK is in better quality gear, and that is the issue.

What I'm saying is that the DK can't compete, but outside of a few options, it doesn't perform as well as the other base classes, let alone the paywall classes. I don't think it is unreasonable for ZoS to make changes to the class to bring it to standard.

I play on console and all the mag classes I play sit between 80-85 no matter which combination of CP and gear that I use. CP 2.0 has a lot to do with that. All of the classes in my eyes have been homogenized, class identity is pretty much the color of your AOE damage and that’s it.

My MagDK is sitting at 81K wearing Zen’s and Siroria. My magplar is at 80K in Acuity and Siroria. Magblade is at 80K in Medusa and Sorrow. Magcro is the highest at 85k in Medusa and Siroria. All of them wear Zaan, all of them have inner light on their front bar, all of them have dots on their back bar. The guts of their basic rotations are nearly the same, 2-3 skills, barswap, 2-3 skills barswap, 2-3 skills, barswap. Repeat ad nauseam.

Literally 4 different flavours of vanilla ice cream one with chocolate sprinkles and 2 with a little sauce on top.

MrZeDark · May 2021

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »

@MrZeDark
It is great that you are content, I think that is spectacular. I sit at 80k on my DK, and I was proud to get him that high, since it is the class I know best, and it is character I've played since release.

The issue is that the time and effort required to get the DK to a 80k, equates to 100k on my sorc, and 110 on my templar, even when my DK is in better quality gear, and that is the issue.

What I'm saying is that the DK can't compete, but outside of a few options, it doesn't perform as well as the other base classes, let alone the paywall classes. I don't think it is unreasonable for ZoS to make changes to the class to bring it to standard.

I play on console and all the mag classes I play sit between 80-85 no matter which combination of CP and gear that I use. CP 2.0 has a lot to do with that. All of the classes in my eyes have been homogenized, class identity is pretty much the color of your AOE damage and that’s it.

My MagDK is sitting at 81K wearing Zen’s and Siroria. My magplar is at 80K in Acuity and Siroria. Magblade is at 80K in Medusa and Sorrow. Magcro is the highest at 85k in Medusa and Siroria. All of them wear Zaan, all of them have inner light on their front bar, all of them have dots on their back bar. The guts of their basic rotations are nearly the same, 2-3 skills, barswap, 2-3 skills barswap, 2-3 skills, barswap. Repeat ad nauseam.

Literally 4 different flavours of vanilla ice cream one with chocolate sprinkles and 2 with a little sauce on top.

This is not to stir an offense, but those same builds I’m seeing people break 90k on a parse.. not the DK though. I do agree that dmg was balanced a bit more as of late, on live. Which to me is good, shouldn’t have 1 class to rule them all. Better people choose the color of spells, play style, and what support abilities they want to bring.

danthemann5 · May 2021

Another patch cycle goes by and DK has nothing to show for it other than bitter disappointment.

Cleveland sports fans know this feeling well.

Urzigurumash · May 2021

danthemann5 wrote: »

Another patch cycle goes by and DK has nothing to show for it other than bitter disappointment.

Cleveland sports fans know this feeling well.

The removal of proc sets from Cyrodiil was like that rain delay in Game 7 of the 2016 World Series, if the Malacath era was to DKs as the summer of 2016 was to Cleveland sports fans.

Grimlok_S · May 2021

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Chaining players off keep walls from the ground

Leaping up into keeps

Reflecting projectiles

This made me the most sad. The days of disrupting siege lines..

Kadoozy · May 2021

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Chaining players off keep walls from the ground

Leaping up into keeps

Reflecting projectiles

Fire damage abilities for sdk

Igneous Weapons adding fire damage to LA/HA

Eruption as an AoE disorient

RIP DK

Those first three especially need brought back. Talk about taking the fun out of the class.

prof_doom · May 2021

Aldenn wrote: »

It's not only about PvE tho

That's the biggest issue with ESO. They keep smacking around PVE players because of PVP balancing, and then they fix PVE and suddenly PVP is up in arms again.

It's never really going to get better unless they separate PVE and PVP balancing.