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Vateshran 2H - Adjustments Required
Decimus
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Perfected Frenzied Momentum
Set bonus
(2 items) Adds 877 Maximum Stamina, While Momentum is active, casting Stamina Abilities while in combat generates a stack of Frenzied Momentum for 20 seconds, increasing your Weapon Damage by 38 up to 5 times. Upon reaching max stacks, your next Heavy Attack will consume all stacks and release a violent explosion of energy around you, dealing 9132 Physical Damage to all enemies within 8 meters.
Not only do you get a lot of weapon damage to buff up the proc (and other procs), but the set also enables way too much "free burst" with the way it works as it can be procced with something as simple as a medium weave.
Right now it is probably the most problematic proc out there with way less counterplay than other procs that are commonly complained about, such as Zaan or Crimson.
The set should require a full heavy attack for the proc, that way there is more counterplay (time to dodge roll/block) before you're hit by Crystal Weapon/Blastbones/Shalks+Ultimate and instantly killed.
On top of that the numbers should probably be tuned down a bit considering the stats provided by the stacks as well as the ability to proc this from the off bar while on main bar.
This is a problem on Live already, and it'll be even more of a problem next patch if not addressed.
22
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Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I have to aggree, as much as I like the extra burst on classes that aren't necro or warden, I do think it's a bit too much.
Honestly, I'd prefer if the proc was removed altogether, and the extra wpd was boosted, would be more thematic with the skill it enhances.
Maybe make it give a 100 wpd per stack, but with a shorter duration and when you reach 5 you can't refresh it anymore.
I think more ppl complain about zaan as their death recap will show a very high number, and even tho it has counterplay, a lot of ppl usually melt before they react to it.
As for crimson, I don't get the obsession some ppl have with this set, it's really on strong if you are in the thick of a group fight, it needs to hit multiple players to be powerful, which is fine IMHO.Edited by Firstmep on May 2, 2021 8:51AM3 -
Abyssmol✭✭✭✭✭The Vateshran destro staff was nerfed for next patch, but the 2 handed never. Don't wait for a nerf of a stamina weapon on Elder Stamina Online...9
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MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭What I'd like to see:- Instead of 190 weapon damage for 5 stamina skills, 300-400 to bring it more in line with VDSA Bow/Staves 300/600 for 1 button press.
- Reduce the proc damage by close to half.
- Change the condition to only proc off of fully charged heavy attacks.
Fits the theme of Momentum more, less reliance on a damage proc, only 2H weapon with a damage bonus so that should be the highlight of the set, all that would put it in a reasonable state.Edited by MashmalloMan on May 2, 2021 8:55PMPC Beta - 1900+ CP
Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit
Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit5 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭ResidentContrarian wrote: »I'm surprised no one has appeared yet to defend the set, not even me.
There's always 1.
Some people just like to watch the world burn, but you already know that judging by your name :PPC Beta - 1900+ CP
Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit
Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit1 -
Adenoma✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wait, my dudes. Don’t you want that stronk strong? Buff 50%. Make it scale off 1k weapon damage. 1 shot kill with new Proc meta. Come on, folks, let’s do big things.Adenoma-Badenoma-Sadenoma1 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭My personal preference is to strip away the damage proc entirely and to replace it with additional raw Weapon Damage.
A good target value was listed earlier in the thread at around 400 Weapon Damage.3 -
Long_Distance✭✭✭
The set should require a full heavy attack for the proc, that way there is more counterplay (time to dodge roll/block) before you're hit by Crystal Weapon/Blastbones/Shalks+Ultimate and instantly killed.
That is a really good suggestion! Most people I guess are unaware of the fact that it only takes a medium attack to proc 2H Vateshran. So after a dizzy all you need to do is holding your left mouse button for a split second longer than for the following light attack. Thus 2H Vatheshran fits perfectly in the rotation you're doing anyways on a dizzy swinging build.
With the new reenforced proc meta coming up, otherwise you will practically be stunned and close to death after a somebody lands a dizzy medium combo on you.2 -
Eldemar_Kron✭✭✭With all personal respect - you really think it's the real problem here?
The set should require a full heavy attack for the proc, that way there is more counterplay (time to dodge roll/block) before you're hit by Crystal Weapon/Blastbones/Shalks+Ultimate and instantly killed.
Why i'm on medium rollblade not dying?1 -
Decimus✭✭✭✭✭Still waiting for adjustments to this... other proc changes in the upcoming patch are good, but as long as the meta one shot builds played by people are getting stronger in the next patch I don't see it being enjoyable.3
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xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Probably the worst offender of free damage left. Everyone already runs 2h, Momentum, and a back bar buff set, so there's basically no opportunity cost. The burst proc scaling will be broken by familiar builds that stack only HP and WD, simple example would be Balorgh/NMA/Alchemist. The burst proc itself triggers off any "heavy" attack, not just fully charged ones like most other proc sets that require heavies, making it much easier to land.PC/NA || CP/Cyro || RIP soft caps4 -
ManDraKE✭✭✭✭✭
✭The suggestions of changing it to full charge heavy is a good one. Not only makes the proc more telegraphed, giving time to react to it, but also grants more control in the hands of experience players. If im being pressured and i want to weave a medium attack to get some resources back, i dont loss the weapon damage buff for my healing and the buff is going to be there when i want to switch back to the offense. It creates a bit more skillfull gameplay around the buff and the proc.
The other change i would suggest instead of nerfing the damage and making the set mediocre, is make that the proc damage only works on the active bar. The buff is on the character sheet, but the proc effect needs to be done with a fully charge heavy on the 2h bar, that would deal with most of the problematic builds around withouth need to nerf the item itself.Eldemar_Kron wrote: »Why i'm on medium rollblade not dying?
because you are not playing at the same level than the OP is. A cristal weapon one shoot build is still putting my stamplar with heavy pariah and 30k hp in execute range in a single GCD, followed by ofc an undoggeable execute (spin2win or endless fury on nonCP), you are dead before you can even react to it. My rollerblade basically dies in a single GCD, even with high HP and vamp undead passive.
But dont worry, once the cyrodrill no proc test ends, you will experience what players in high MMR BG's have been dealing with for some time3 -
divnyi✭✭✭✭✭
✭@ManDraKE but you can't regen with medium attacks? Afaik it always take full heavy (for some weapons, full heavy isn't until the very end).
And I'm surely agree on the change. We have burst proc sets like caluurion, red mountain etc, they have 1 GCD delay and can be blocked/dodged. This set is undodgeable, unblockable damage that goes off in a split second. Making it telegraphed with some 1.5-2s animation is completely fair. Even more, this is the expected behavior given the ability text.0 -
xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If players are actually getting one shot in cp cyro in a few weeks, don't worry, the forums will be zerged. It would be nice if they just gutted Vatesh 2h now to be safe. Maybe replace all the damage and proc with some HP regen.Edited by xylena_lazarow on May 15, 2021 6:44PMPC/NA || CP/Cyro || RIP soft caps1 -
Red99✭✭✭Yea sure lets make stamsorc useless again, vate 2h + cristal weap is a really nice combo for stamsorc to kill scrubs cuz this combo is SO PREDICTABLE, u have to just block the next dizzy aftet the cristal weap cast and combo is goneEdited by Red99 on May 17, 2021 1:46PM1
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olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yea this weapon need to have a reduction in the procc dmg aswell as require a full heavy attack.
PC EU
PvP only3 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yea sure lets make stamsorc useless again, vate 2h + cristal weap is a really nice combo for stamsorc to kill scrubs but this combo is SO PREDICTABLE u have to just block the next dizzy aftet the cristal weap cast and combo is gone
Id rather have them rework bound armament into a useable burst skill instead.
No class/spec should rely on any specific sets for viability, it should only enhance them.5 -
Grimlok_S✭✭✭✭✭Couldn't agree more.
Require a full heavy, remove the DMG proc, consider doubling the WD bonus for 5s after successful full heavy. That way it exceeds Master Bow, but for a much shorter period.
Light Attack Hero
Class contextStamplar
StamDK
Stamsorc
MagDK
StamMAGStamden
Magplar
Stam NB
Bomb NB0 -
gariondavey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MashmalloMan wrote: »What I'd like to see:- Instead of 190 weapon damage for 5 stamina skills, 300-400 to bring it more in line with VDSA Bow/Staves 300/600 for 1 button press.
- Reduce the proc damage by close to half.
- Change the condition to only proc off of fully charged heavy attacks.
Fits the theme of Momentum more, less reliance on a damage proc, only 2H weapon with a damage bonus so that should be the highlight of the set, all that would put it in a reasonable state.
This is the best idea.PC NA @gariondavey, BG, IC & Cyrodiil Focused Since October 2017 Stamplar (main), Magplar, Magsorc, Stamsorc, StamDK, MagDK, Stamblade, Magblade, Magden, Stamden0 -
JanTanhide✭✭✭✭✭
✭ResidentContrarian wrote: »I'm surprised no one has appeared yet to defend the set, not even me.
I will defend it! Stop nerfing the game for PVP. There, I did it!0 -
Tessitura✭✭✭✭✭Yea sure lets make stamsorc useless again, vate 2h + cristal weap is a really nice combo for stamsorc to kill scrubs cuz this combo is SO PREDICTABLE, u have to just block the next dizzy aftet the cristal weap cast and combo is gone
What are you talking about? Stam sorc is strong right now regardless and even if it did ruin it, they shouldnt hold one weapon set up that other classes are abusing to save one class. Not to mention if thats all that is holding stam sorc up then they would have bigger things to worry about. NO class should need a specific piece of gear to be viable.4 -
Decimus✭✭✭✭✭Yea sure lets make stamsorc useless again, vate 2h + cristal weap is a really nice combo for stamsorc to kill scrubs cuz this combo is SO PREDICTABLE, u have to just block the next dizzy aftet the cristal weap cast and combo is gone
You run Vateshran 2H on the back bar with the meta setups, there is no dizzy swing just (crystal weapon/blastbones/shalks)->medium weave+dawnbreaker into undodgeable executes (spin2win) with DW front.
It doesn't kill scrubs only, it kills almost anything apart from max health heavy armor wardens before they even have a chance to CC break from the Dawnbreaker (let alone block+heal while in execute range) - I wouldn't be making a forum thread if this was something with counterplay (i.e. something balanced).Edited by Decimus on May 17, 2021 2:34PM4 -
xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Has this started to happen in cp cyro? Sorry I haven't played in a couple months. I can only recall watching good players on this sort of build get stonewalled by tanky randoms, and I can't recall ever being one shotted by it. Either way, stamsorc is definitely fine without Vatesh 2h in any mode.It doesn't kill scrubs only, it kills almost anything apart from max health heavy armor wardens before they even have a chance to CC break from the Dawnbreaker (let alone block+heal while in execute range) - I wouldn't be making a forum thread if this was something with counterplay (i.e. something balanced).
Since Momentum is a powerful ability that everyone already uses, the bonus on it should be made deliberately weaker than other arena weapons that require you to run niche abilities.Edited by xylena_lazarow on May 17, 2021 3:10PMPC/NA || CP/Cyro || RIP soft caps1 -
Decimus✭✭✭✭✭xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Has this started to happen in cp cyro? Sorry I haven't played in a couple months. I can only recall watching good players on this sort of build get stonewalled by tanky randoms, and I can't recall ever being one shotted by it. Either way, stamsorc is definitely fine without Vatesh 2h in any mode.It doesn't kill scrubs only, it kills almost anything apart from max health heavy armor wardens before they even have a chance to CC break from the Dawnbreaker (let alone block+heal while in execute range) - I wouldn't be making a forum thread if this was something with counterplay (i.e. something balanced).
Since Momentum is a powerful ability that everyone already uses, the bonus on it should be made deliberately weaker than other arena weapons that require you to run niche abilities.
No, because proc sets (including Vateshran 2H) are currently disabled in Cyrodiil.
It is currently the biggest carry build in BGs though and will be even worse next patch if this weapon isn't addressed like the other procs were.2 -
xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
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Yea I'm aware of the proc ban, I'm saying this combo was not an issue in the u28 cp cyro proc meta. If something is only a problem in BGs, well once again it's time to just pick one, cp or nocp, and balance around it. Completely insane to me that they did this massive cp rework and we're still splitting PvP modes.No, because proc sets (including Vateshran 2H) are currently disabled in Cyrodiil. It is currently the biggest carry build in BGs though and will be even worse next patch if this weapon isn't addressed like the other procs were.PC/NA || CP/Cyro || RIP soft caps0 -
Decimus✭✭✭✭✭xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Yea I'm aware of the proc ban, I'm saying this combo was not an issue in the u28 cp cyro proc meta. If something is only a problem in BGs, well once again it's time to just pick one, cp or nocp, and balance around it. Completely insane to me that they did this massive cp rework and we're still splitting PvP modes.No, because proc sets (including Vateshran 2H) are currently disabled in Cyrodiil. It is currently the biggest carry build in BGs though and will be even worse next patch if this weapon isn't addressed like the other procs were.
I can't comment on CP Cyrodiil as I don't play it, but Vate 2H has always been very popular in duels as far as I know, simply because it is free damage and stats from the back bar with minimal investment.1 -
DihakiSoul ShrivenI think the idea of the vate proc is very good, it turns out that the base damage is too high for a medium atack proc (surprise damage). If we consider, 5-6k of current damage puts a nocp player, after taking two dizzing's, in the execution phase due to the surprise damage from the vate. Perhaps a solution is to decrease base damage or take away damage and increase weapon damage gained by staking.0
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GRXRG✭✭✭✭Don't get me wrong, Vate 2H is overall very strong and probably is a bit overtuned, but we gotta clarify that it's not a killing condition proc like many others.
It is simply a damage pressure that helps you secure kills especially on tankier targets, it's not *** like zaan, unleashed terror, venomous smite, calurion where you see from 10k to 15k damage (sometimes more) in your recap, and that means that wasn't the player who killed you with skills, but with free damage of procs doing nothing.
I see vate2h in my recap from 3k to max of 6k at max if i am running a super squishy stamblade, I don't see it that problematic.
Vate destro is a lot more noob friendly and more damage pressure.
With a bit of strafe vate 2h miss more times then you would imagine, and i am talking when I see players using it against me.0
