Aldenn wrote: »

• Bring back old wings: no one asked for a change, i don't really know why they were nerfed, a huge hit to our survivability both for stam and mag DKs
  gestion or critique is highly appreciated.

Wings were a 100% counter to alot of playstyles. You would hardcounter magsorc, magden, magcro, all of the magblade skills and all bow/bow or bow/shield builds. Meeting a magdk on those builds would be a 100% certain lose for you.
I agree that they are kind of useless now they need some major changes. I would instead give them min expedition when hit by any projectile for 8 seconds + 2 seconds more uptime.

Aldenn wrote: »

• Give Mag DKs a proper class executioner: Mag DKs are struggling with survivability without having any real advantage on damage. See sorcs, for example (more survivability, dmg and a class executioner which sometimes isn't really needed due to an insane output dmg)

The whole idea behind the class is, that you have the dot pressure to get your enemy low and then you need to keep it up to secure the kill (same with magden and magcro).
Magdk just has a more crippled toolkit which doesent allow you to keep up that pressure as easily. So they need adept the toolkit of magdk. You have many things spread out onto different skills and you dont have the barspace to fit all.

Aldenn wrote: »

• Give Stam DKs a stam spammable (?): Stam DKs are bound to weapon class abilities, pretty much every build is the same as it's mostly built around finding a window to land ur burst with leap after landing a couple dyzzing that ,after years,is starting to be utterly boring.

well the same goes for almost any class besides nightblade and templar. I wil never understand why Class skills and class Spammables have to be worse then Weapon or Guild skills. Its just a huge design fail in their Spreadsheet. All class skills should always have a 5% higher tooltip then your average non-class skill. Also Stamwhip pls.

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

Aldenn wrote: »

Wings were a 100% counter to alot of playstyles. You would hardcounter magsorc, magden, magcro, all of the magblade skills and all bow/bow or bow/shield builds. Meeting a magdk on those builds would be a 100% certain lose for you.
I agree that they are kind of useless now they need some major changes. I would instead give them min expedition when hit by any projectile for 8 seconds + 2 seconds more uptime.

Whiners could have asked for non reflectable skills but no they had to be dementors of fun and they didn't want any counter play to their ranged skills.

IMO DKs as a whole need a rework for both PVE and PVP. Too many class skills are oriented towards being tank skills, too many class abilities are loaded with unnecessary self heals (Flame Lash, Burning Embers, Hardened Armor shield, Inahle & morphs, Dragon Blood & morphs, and Shattering Rocks, which are all abilities that will heal you, and only you, and only one of which is designed around being a self heal). This is in addition to the "heal others" abilities they have in Obsidian Shard, Ash Cloud, and Obsidian Shield.

Unfortunately for DKs, all of their 'heal other' abilities are fundamentally flawed. Obsidian Shard requires an enemy target to use it on, Ash Cloud/Cinder Storm has a tiny radius, and an absurdly high cost compared to similar abilities, plus it has a 70% snare that is useless in many circumstances, and Obsidian Shield overwrites other DKs shields, even if the one being overwritten is stronger (not to mention the shield is tiny unless you are a tank anyways), and while it grants major mending, since the nerf to major mending, it's better to just get it from resto heavy attack in many situations because the major mending isn't really worth the cost of the ability overall. And Cauterize only ticks once every 5 seconds, and only hits one ally each tick.

In addition to all that, the class doesn't have a ranged magicka damage spammable, it and really only barely has a stamina spammable, if you can call Stonefist that. DKs have major expedition, but it is tied to chains, so if someone is out of range, good luck catching up to them

Some thoughts I have:

Rework the Lava Whip morphs so that one is magick and one is stamina. If both must remain magicka, give one a ranged morph and at least let them scale off max stam or magicka.

Remove the Major Expedition from Chains, put it somewhere else in the DK toolkit (like one of the wings morphs).

Make Cauterize tick more frequently, even if the healing per tick must be reduced. I'd rather heal half as much twice as frequently. If it is going to tick as slowly as it does now, maybe add a mini-purge effect to it. Or let it hit two targets every tick

Rework wings. Maybe protective plate can also remove negative effects, giving the class a self purge. Maybe Dragonfire scale gives major expedition. Maybe instead of it doing a 50% reduction, it gets the Crystl Shield treatment, and blocks X damage from projectiles instead

Remove the self heal from inhale, make it a delayed burst damage ability

Rework Shattering Rocks. DKs already have odd, shoehhorned in healing abilities, why not make this one. Given how radically different different class morphs already are for this class, I don't see why Shattering Rocks can't be some kind of interesting ability that is unique for healers. Like make it a self buff, and while active, allies healed by your class skills gain minor courage, or while active, your damage shields strength on allies is increased by X. It could even be made into some kind of sustain skill, like each time a heal over time or damage over time ability of yours affects an ally/enemy, restore x resource.

Rework Fragmented shield, make it scale off max magicka. HonestlyI used to think major mending on this was great, but given how bad DK sustain is, how expensive this skill is, it is only really worth it in very specific circumstances like phases where incresaed damage is incoming. Outside of that, it just isn't worth slotting in most other circumstances

Increase the Cinder Storm morph radius. Honestly, the cost could stand to be reduced, and we could stand to lose the snare on the ability too. Is it useful in some circumstances? Very rarely. If I need to stop an enemy, I'd rather use chains or talons instead in PVE, and in PVP the outside of battlegrounds on chokepoints, I've found it just isnt useful since the radius is so small, as a smart opponent can easily roll through it or go around it, or even become immune to snares

Rework dragon blood to be %based heal. Being based off of %missing health is really painful for everyone, including tanks

I'd also like to see Igneous Weapons do more than just make the buff 54 seconds long.

Also, Magma Shell just doesn't work well as a support ultimate. DKs don't really have a good support ultimate candidate, and this feels like the most appropriate spot to slot one in.



These are just my perspectives as a casual noob who mostly plays support and who actually likes DKs as a class, I want them to succeed. I could care less if they are still bottom tier healers after being reworked so long as they are fun to play as. Currently, they are not fun to play as a support, and they are barely competent in the rol

By a PvP perspective, Corrosive Armor makes DKs the proper class to abuse proc dot meta, since nobody can overheal unleashed+merciless on top of syvarra/unfhatomable/plague singer or what, a DKs in Corrosive ignores their physical resistance. They add their own dots too, making really hard to cleanse everything. They have OP CC (fossilize) OP sinergy (talons). Next patch they will be the only class that can buff procs with minor brutality.

By PvE perspective, they are BiS as tanks in lot of contents, and very efficient as DD (providing unique buffs to group too).

logan_ESO wrote: »

By a PvP perspective, Corrosive Armor makes DKs the proper class to abuse proc dot meta, since nobody can overheal unleashed+merciless on top of syvarra/unfhatomable/plague singer or what, a DKs in Corrosive ignores their physical resistance. They add their own dots too, making really hard to cleanse everything. They have OP CC (fossilize) OP sinergy (talons). Next patch they will be the only class that can buff procs with minor brutality.

By PvE perspective, they are BiS as tanks in lot of contents, and very efficient as DD (providing unique buffs to group too).

Dude, i don't want to bash or anything, but you should really get into pvp a little bit more with DK to understand this class.
You're rarely going to use corrosive when PvPing, of course there are a few scenarios where you can use it, it's good and all but realistically you're going to waste your ulti much before reaching 200+ ulti points.
Talons and Fossilize are pretty good skills, but not OP at all, i didn't say we miss a CC but an executioner (or a better dmg kit) for mag dk, and a stam spammable for stam dks.
DK is far from being OP, and that's not what i'm asking, i'm just asking to make DKs a little bit more playable and enjoyable.

I’ll add another one. How about the health recovery on elder dragon now that health recovery is halved in pvp? It was already nearly useless before that nerf.

Brrrofski wrote: »

Mag DK definitely needs a buff.

But we definitely don't need old wings back. It hard countered a lot of stuff. Mag nightblade especially, which I think we can all agree isn't in the best place itself. It's too squishy to play full melee to use concealed weapon, so swallow soul is your best spammable. Ranged or melee, wings also countered your spectral bow which is how you actually gets kills on magblade. Old wings meant you couldn't do anything at all.

So I'm all for mag DK buffs, but if wings gets buffed, it needs to be something else. If crystalized shield was more popular, I'd have a beef with that, but barely anyone uses it.

Stam DK is in an ok spot imo, but I think it needs a spammable. I'm so sick of running 2h, I want to use DW but unless you use master DW the spammables are quite poor.

Also, it's the "dot class" but dots are't great in pvp as the sole focus of a build. In dueling they can be good, but in open world they kinda suck. In big even battles, ulti dump and delayed burst is king. In solo/small group outnumbered, you need to kill people fast, not rotate 3 dots on someone and hope they or someone else doesn't heal them

Too many classes have purge, healing is a lot easier to come by than before (so many skills/passives give passive healing) and bust is absolute king. By the time you've put 3 dots on someone they've queued up 20k in damage to hit within two seconds.

This. We've been spamming dyzzing swing for 5 years, a spammable would be great to see this class on a new perspective, more build variability and so on.

Dont need to bring old wings back, just make wings work like ball of lightning and trade the teleport for longer uptime.

Rahar wrote: »

Pre-Elsweyr wings will never come back. I'm not sure how you (OP) can say that no one asked for a change when it oppressed pretty much any mag class that relied on projectiles, as multiple other posters have pointed out. That change was one of the best in ESO's history, IMO.

Though that isn't to say that I'm totally against any DK changes for the better. I don't play the class myself, but even on the receiving end DK is just a chore to fight. Too many packed in defenses makes for a class that's not threatening but can't be threatened 1v1, which (in my experience) is how a lot of players are gearing up their DKs since they don't have a lot of mobility/utility. I'd be okay with wings absorbing/reflecting a certain amount of damage at a certain distance for a certain number of projectiles, but I wouldn't like to see it returned to the conditionless wings of old, which were egregious in the aforementioned cases with mag classes.

One other thing I wanted to point out is that not all classes need everything in their class kit. Magsorc doesn't have a spammable either, but it's still good. Variety makes for a more interesting game, I think.

"Pretty much any mag class that relied on projectiles", probably the only class you're referring to is mag sorc, that i also play and i can tell that if u had a little bit of skill u could work around it.
We're just nerfing down things to try to put all players on the same level but the truth is that to play properly PvP you gotta use your brain (i'm not talking directly to you, just in general as the trend rn is to nerf down stuff).

Aldenn wrote: »

"Pretty much any mag class that relied on projectiles", probably the only class you're referring to is mag sorc, that i also play and i can tell that if u had a little bit of skill u could work around it.
We're just nerfing down things to try to put all players on the same level but the truth is that to play properly PvP you gotta use your brain (i'm not talking directly to you, just in general as the trend rn is to nerf down stuff).

It wasnt sorc that was royally screwed by it it was magblade.
That being said wings being in the state they are while shimmering shield and ball of lightning exist is just a joke tbh. I would take either in a heartbeat over wings in literally any situation in the game that does not involve maintanking vCR+3.

For StamDK, we just need strong mobility tools to help us fulfill the power fantasy of a Knight: Leather armor, constantly moving and kiting, a bow, etc.

I love spamming RaT, that skill perfectly defines everyone's idea of a Knight playstyle

/s

Sergykid wrote: »

magdk is a living god in pvp if played correctly. Just learn to play it better, but i don't think dk exp is what you need but pvp exp altogether. Also stamdk is very strong just like stamden and stamcro.

it's true that dk is a weaker version of the paid classes, but out of the base game classes dk is the strongest. Maybe magsorc and nb are stronger in various scenarios but dk can build against them. I would rather see the paid classes toned down a bit into balance and raise the other base game classes, dk is in a good spot now.

I agree, outside of Sorc the other 3 base-game classes seem reasonably balanced. Absolutely, buff NB, DK, and Plar before you nerf Sorc.

I think part of why NB is consistently ranked above DK and Templar is just that the NB identity is clear, and strong when built into. In all of my 1v1s on DK against NBs or Templars, things seem decently balanced.

However, DK and Templar have a number of identity crisis issues. That's my read of things anyhow, I could be wrong.

In hindsight, I have to ask myself.... why on Earth, would I choose a Magicka class.... that relies on being melee based, and suffers Stamina limitations to run, break free and roll in Cyrodiil.

I remember old wings, and I did love it. There were definitely counters to it. But if you spammed ranged attacks from a keep wall, at a melee that also couldn't do anything back to you... well, that's a reflection of time poorly spent.

While I don't pvp anymore, and ESO's not currently not active in my MMO rotation, I always look on kindly from afar. While remembering all the above and going 'Zav, you're an idiot for being melee magicka, haha'

Aldenn wrote: »

Hello. I'll get straight to the point: DK is just a weaker Warden. Less tankiness less ulti regen (which are key points on a DK), and less output damage. I actually can't find a reason why one should pick this class when there's a "upgraded" version of it.

I'd like to give some suggestions:

• Bring back old wings: no one asked for a change, i don't really know why they were nerfed, a huge hit to our survivability both for stam and mag DKs
• Give Mag DKs a proper class executioner: Mag DKs are struggling with survivability without having any real advantage on damage. See sorcs, for example (more survivability, dmg and a class executioner which sometimes isn't really needed due to an insane output dmg)
• Give Stam DKs a stam spammable (?): Stam DKs are bound to weapon class abilities, pretty much every build is the same as it's mostly built around finding a window to land ur burst with leap after landing a couple dyzzing that ,after years,is starting to be utterly boring.
• Any suggestion or critique is highly appreciated.

Dragon Knight has been since the beginning - and remains to this day - my most dreaded opponent in PvP. The only exception to this was the OP Bash-omatic necromancer, which was short-lived. And if there is a class that doesn't struggle with survivability in PvP on this game (no CP) then I haven't seen it. So that doesn't set Dragon Knight apart from any of the others. Their offense is insane, and they have the most potent CC in the game. In my opinion: a well-played Dragon Knight is the best class at PVP on this game.

So I would stick with it. They can very good once you get the hang of it.

Aldenn wrote: »

Hello. I'll get straight to the point: DK is just a weaker Warden. Less tankiness less ulti regen (which are key points on a DK), and less output damage. I actually can't find a reason why one should pick this class when there's a "upgraded" version of it.

I'd like to give some suggestions:

• Bring back old wings: no one asked for a change, i don't really know why they were nerfed, a huge hit to our survivability both for stam and mag DKs
• Give Mag DKs a proper class executioner: Mag DKs are struggling with survivability without having any real advantage on damage. See sorcs, for example (more survivability, dmg and a class executioner which sometimes isn't really needed due to an insane output dmg)
• Give Stam DKs a stam spammable (?): Stam DKs are bound to weapon class abilities, pretty much every build is the same as it's mostly built around finding a window to land ur burst with leap after landing a couple dyzzing that ,after years,is starting to be utterly boring.
• Any suggestion or critique is highly appreciated.

Old wings would be dope
If devs think these are OP at least give them absorb morph similar to warden crystal shield. It could either give you small heal for each projectile absorbed for duration or even better, a bit of resources.
Make it return 100 stamina and magicka per projectile absorbed and it will be a bit more helpful than it is now.
Also, if you feel wings absorbing 100% damage for 6 seconds is too much, make it that it absorbs 3 projectiles and after that damage mitigation is 50% for the rest of duration.
Other morph could have same mitigation mechanics but no snare removal + this fire ball bs it has now.

About mag executioner - easiest way to implement this is to make whip deal extra damage to targets below 25%

And about stam spammable #STAMWHIP
Could be poison damage that ramps up depending on how many class dots u have applied and ticking on target, and every 3rd hit applies minor defile for 5 seconds, and can be triggered once every 10 seconds per target.

Its time to introduce 3rd morph to some if not all class skills.
This would finally give non DLC classes enough stamina morphs and open up more skill slots to tweak each class to be more balanced that it is now.