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What is the Worst Healing Class 2021
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xI_The_Owl_Ix✭✭✭✭✭Starlight_Whisper wrote: »xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »Starlight_Whisper wrote: »xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »phantasmalD wrote: »I legit stopped reading after "Burning Heart is meh, PvE healers already massively overheal everything even without it."
First you literally said "Oh boy, spend 10k hp and your healer's sanity for 990 stamina."
Now youre saying healers overheal anything anyway.
Its clear that you are going to move your goalpost regardless of my valid points and therefore Im just not going to respond anymore.
That was just a joke and not the main point of the sentence so you are taking it out of context, but sure, point taken.
[snip]
[snip]Oh btw, Im pretty sure Bloodroot Forge was a pledge this week and I totally did the HM on my DK tank without a healer, [snip]
One last thing I need to address tho before you go:
And that was a decision they backtracked on years ago (2018, Summerset, patch 4.0.5):xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »I will say this: DKs (like the other non DLC classes) were clearly designed around a role (tanking) and that is evident.ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Player Abilities
Developer Comments – Ability Changes:
Spoiler
We’ve made numerous ability changes with this latest update – some have global implications, while others are specific tweaks and quality of life changes. Some of our major goals with these changes include:- Improving unpopular abilities and morph choices: Most of the abilities tweaks are targeting underused skills or morphs that we’ve found few players utilize.
- Increasing the viability of all classes to perform the tank and healer roles: Some class skills have received significant updates to help improve their ability to tank and heal dungeon and Trial content.
- Reducing the effectiveness of long duration snares: A few snares have had their strength reduced to better balance their high uptime on enemy targets.
- DPS Balancing: Some abilities and item sets have had their damage values and procs adjusted to improve the damage disparity between Magicka and Stamina builds. Other changes were focused on creating better parity between Melee and Ranged builds.
Viability =/= Designed around that role.
Look at it like this: DKs can heal through content. Is it ideal? No. Do they bring any unique buffs/debuffs? No. But can they heal through content? Absolutely.
This also goes for NB Tanks or Healers. Templar Tanks. Sorc Tanks.DK DDs. Etc. You get my point.
Just being able to clear content doesnt make the class/role competitive. And I doubt ZoS will change that, dont get me wrong I hope they do but knowing ZoS they most likely wont. Thats also why Ive been campaigning for class change token. I want to play my main (nightblade) and tank but its a terrible experience and I know that ZoS doesnt care enough to fix the shortcomings of the class and of other classes as well.
NBs are supposed to be DDs.
DKs are supposed to be Tanks.
Templars are supposed to be Healers.
Sorcs are supposed to be DDs.
Thats how ZoS thinks and I dont think we will see them changing anytime soon. I HOPE they do, but lets be real..this isnt the Crown Store.
The skill advisor exists so each class is to meant to do each role. In fact newer classes designer that way because most people want this. Going backwards, nightblade literally has healing skill line and tank one so you lost this one. Only ones screwed are Sorc, Dk, and Templar.
Yea nah... NB doesnt have healing or tanking skill lines.
The "tanking skill line" is: an offensive spammable, invisbility/HoT selfheal, AoE dmg/heal, AoE hardCC, offensive single target and AoE DoT/single target DoT + teleport.
The "healing skill line" is: a spammable which heals yourself/heals yourself and allies for a % of dmg done, a burst heal for allies, a single target DoT, sustain + self-heal skill and an AoE DMG spammable.
I didnt "lose anything" because Im right. I know that you guys want to twist this into something that it isnt, so just stop.
Not everything needs to be competitive, just viable. You can't have six bis healer classes, one will always stand out anyway.xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »Just being able to clear content doesnt make the class/role competitive.
And they are viable, you can hit high dmg numbers on a DK DD (100k DPS), and can also clear content with a DK healer. Thats literally what viable means.
[Quoted post was removed]
Im not against balance. I have said, several times in this thread, that I hope ZoS balances the classes I just dont see it happening. That being said, I dont have to agree with people who bring up bad arguments or are straight up wrong. Or focus on the wrong areas (DK tanks apparently being bad). I 100% agree that DK healing sucks, or that DK DDs resource managment needs some love. But just being misinformed or lying to make the class seem worse than it actually is, isnt going to help you or your cause.
You saying that "NBs have tanking and healing skill lines, only Sorcs, DKs, and Templars dont." for example is straight up wrong and undermines NBs who are also in need of "balanced roles". So how am I the one "against" balance?Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on May 2, 2021 1:41PM0 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The "DKs aren't meant to be healers therefore they're bad and always should be" argument is incredibly lazy and self-serving.
As was said above, not every class can be the best at every role but good designers will include a way for every class to bring something unique to the table.
Currently, that does not apply to DK Healer and, what's more, they are also the worst class at fulfilling the basic responsibilities of the role given their barely there healing toolkit and utterly ridiculous ability costs.
This thread (and the main DK thread) contain many quality ideas that ZOS would be wise to implement.4 -
xI_The_Owl_Ix✭✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »The "DKs aren't meant to be healers therefore they're bad and always should be" argument is incredibly lazy and self-serving.
As was said above, not every class can be the best at every role but good designers will include a way for every class to bring something unique to the table.
Currently, that does not apply to DK Healer and, what's more, they are also the worst class at fulfilling the basic responsibilities of the role given their barely there healing toolkit and utterly ridiculous ability costs.
This thread (and the main DK thread) contain many quality ideas that ZOS would be wise to implement.
Thats not my argument. You clearly missed the point. My point is that ZoS doesnt care, for ZoS DKs should excel at tanking, which they do due unique buffs, tanking passives, CC skills, good sustain, etc.
DK healers are also "viable" which translates to being able to heal through content. And thats Ok for ZoS, thats not only a DK issue but a goes for non DLC classes. NB tanks for example can tank through content but dont bring any synergies, any skills that benefit the group or unique buffs. Yet they are deemed "viable".
Class balance buffs would be great, but thats nothing but wishful thinking, because ZoS would have to change every class passive, change how skills work or even change their positioning in the skill trees, which wont happen because ZoS well.. doesnt care.
The comments in this thread however are nothing but a DK pitty party and making out DKs to be terrible/"not-viable" at any role which is wrong.
Edited by xI_The_Owl_Ix on May 2, 2021 1:36AM0 -
Sangwyne✭✭✭✭✭
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My main is a DK tank lol. I have tanked more than enough to see the issues clearly. Chill.xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »[snip]
SO instead of just having a sustain skill like every other class, we have to use our ultimates off cooldown and rely on RNG with applying DOTS, from damaging skills, as a tank, to get 500 Magicka back. And then still have less sustain. Alright.xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »DK tanks stack magicka recovery and use Balance for basically infinte magicka which they can transform into instant stamina, not only that but the ulti also gives resources back (just using Warhorn gives 13k hp, 11,5k stam and mag back).On addition they get 500 mag back by applying burning effect, which is easy to apply by simply using chains on a boss (which costs 0 mag) or by using Engulfing Flames.
So a skill that's completely free, and purges, and grants buffs, versus using a non-class skill, Balance, to gain 3000 Magicka, which is not even enough for the 4050 to cast Fragmented Shield, all so you can gain 990 Stamina. Absurd.xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »You bring up Netch like its OP when in reality it cant be spammed and only restores 176 stam per second (the purge effect is nice tho). Meanwhile on my DK tank I can just use Balance and spam Fragmented Shield for 990 stam per cast then drop a Warhorn and restore 11,5k mag and stam...
So you are spending 5k HP from Balance to gain 3k Magicka, spending 3k Stamina to cast Vigor to recover the HP from Balance, then spending over 4k Magicka with the 3000 you got from Balance to gain a whopping 990 Stamina after losing 3000 to cast Vigor. And you're defending this insane convoluted system that we are forced into due to not having a sustain skill.xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »Btw 5k HP is barely noticable on a tank, especially in a trial with 2 healers. I run vet DLC HM dungeons without a healer and have 0 issues with HP and I use Balance. 1,5k Hp recovery + Major Mending with Echoing Vigor is enough to basically insta heal you back up to full HP even with the 50% healing debuff.
You realize that DK tank sustain is even worse than DK DD sustain, right? We don't apply Burning or Poison as often, meaning we don't get the effect of Combustion, but still need to cast incredibly expensive skills to buff and support while consuming Stamina by blocking, which disables our Stamina Recovery, and don't have the option to run parse food.xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »You bring up a poll about worst sustain but ignore the role. I also wouldve voted on DK on that poll but not because tank sustain is terrible (its amazing) but because DD sustain sucks. The same way I voted for DK for worst healer eventho they can heal trials and dungeons without issues. They just dont bring anything to the table that the DK tank cant bring, making the DK healer not competitive against a templar who can spam synergies and has better class heals.
Never said DK tank sucked, just that it wasn't actually tankier than every other class. Bringing unique buffs to the table doesn't suddenly mean we are amazing tanks. It means we are useful tanks, but not necessarily more durable than Necro or Warden or even Nightblade. NB tanks have AOE HARD CC, two actual sustain skills in LS and Incap, and can take Silver Leash. They also have the only access to Major Evasion of any tank, along with Minor Resolve, and a 54% Max HP HOT that also grants them Major Resolve, Minor Protection, and more %HP just for slotting. In just two skills.xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »DK doesnt suck. DK tanks are amazing, DK magDDs are still common in trials due to Engulfing Flames (if tank cant sustain it) and Zens. YOU just want DK to be amazing on every role but ZoS doesnt think that way and they wont unless they change how they think and change every class. Because (shocker) other classes also suffer from this. NB tanks have terrible sustain, no syngeries, no AoE soft CC, no magicka pull, dont bring any unique buff to the group etc. but you dont see NBs QQing in the forums how "terrible" the class is and referencing polls that dont have anything to do with the topic.
Except that Warden and Necro are clearly capable of performing every role well. We are the worst healers in the game, the worst DPS in the game, and make for merely mediocre tanks. It's time to stop parroting this idea that DK is the best tank just because that's the only role it can perform adequately on.xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »I will say this: DKs (like the other non DLC classes) were clearly designed around a role (tanking) and that is evident. If you want to play a healer play a Warden or Templar just like how I dropped my NB tank and use a DK for tanking. Or hope that ZoS overhauls every class and makes each class competitive on each role.Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on May 2, 2021 1:42PM3 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »The "DKs aren't meant to be healers therefore they're bad and always should be" argument is incredibly lazy and self-serving.
As was said above, not every class can be the best at every role but good designers will include a way for every class to bring something unique to the table.
Currently, that does not apply to DK Healer and, what's more, they are also the worst class at fulfilling the basic responsibilities of the role given their barely there healing toolkit and utterly ridiculous ability costs.
This thread (and the main DK thread) contain many quality ideas that ZOS would be wise to implement.
Thats not my argument. You clearly missed the point. My point is that ZoS doesnt care, for ZoS DKs should excel at tanking, which they do due unique buffs, tanking passives, CC skills, good sustain, etc.
DK healers are also "viable" which translates to being able to heal through content. And thats Ok for ZoS, thats not only a DK issue but a goes for non DLC classes. NB tanks for example can tank through content but dont bring any synergies, any skills that benefit the group or unique buffs. Yet they are deemed "viable".
Class balance buffs would be great, but thats nothing but wishful thinking, because ZoS would have to change every class passive, change how skills work or even change their positioning in the skill trees, which wont happen because ZoS well.. doesnt care.
The comments in this thread however are nothing but a DK pitty party and making out DKs to be terrible/"not-viable" at any role which is wrong.
Your argument is that they are capable of equipping a Restoration Staff so everything is fine with the class. But that is a uselessly low bar to set and says more about the Restoration Staff skill line than it says about actual DK Healers.
The classes haven't been meaningfully updated in years so we have literally no idea what ZOS' current thinking is about how well classes are able to fulfill the various roles. If the buff to Templar Tanks is indicative of anything though, then ZOS is aware that certain class:role pairings are under-performing and that they have in place a pipeline to improve them.3 -
xI_The_Owl_Ix✭✭✭✭✭
My main is a DK tank lol. I have tanked more than enough to see the issues clearly. Chill.xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »[snip]
SO instead of just having a sustain skill like every other class, we have to use our ultimates off cooldown and rely on RNG with applying DOTS, from damaging skills, as a tank, to get 500 Magicka back. And then still have less sustain. Alright.xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »DK tanks stack magicka recovery and use Balance for basically infinte magicka which they can transform into instant stamina, not only that but the ulti also gives resources back (just using Warhorn gives 13k hp, 11,5k stam and mag back).On addition they get 500 mag back by applying burning effect, which is easy to apply by simply using chains on a boss (which costs 0 mag) or by using Engulfing Flames.
So a skill that's completely free, and purges, and grants buffs, versus using a non-class skill, Balance, to gain 3000 Magicka, which is not even enough for the 4050 to cast Fragmented Shield, all so you can gain 990 Stamina. Absurd.xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »You bring up Netch like its OP when in reality it cant be spammed and only restores 176 stam per second (the purge effect is nice tho). Meanwhile on my DK tank I can just use Balance and spam Fragmented Shield for 990 stam per cast then drop a Warhorn and restore 11,5k mag and stam...
So you are spending 5k HP from Balance to gain 3k Magicka, spending 3k Stamina to cast Vigor to recover the HP from Balance, then spending over 4k Magicka with the 3000 you got from Balance to gain a whopping 990 Stamina after losing 3000 to cast Vigor. And you're defending this insane convoluted system that we are forced into due to not having a sustain skill.xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »Btw 5k HP is barely noticable on a tank, especially in a trial with 2 healers. I run vet DLC HM dungeons without a healer and have 0 issues with HP and I use Balance. 1,5k Hp recovery + Major Mending with Echoing Vigor is enough to basically insta heal you back up to full HP even with the 50% healing debuff.
You realize that DK tank sustain is even worse than DK DD sustain, right? We don't apply Burning or Poison as often, meaning we don't get the effect of Combustion, but still need to cast incredibly expensive skills to buff and consume Stamina by blocking and taunting while casting skills.xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »You bring up a poll about worst sustain but ignore the role. I also wouldve voted on DK on that poll but not because tank sustain is terrible (its amazing) but because DD sustain sucks. The same way I voted for DK for worst healer eventho they can heal trials and dungeons without issues. They just dont bring anything to the table that the DK tank cant bring, making the DK healer not competitive against a templar who can spam synergies and has better class heals.
Never said it sucked, just that it wasn't actually tankier than every other class. Bringing unique buffs to the table doesn't suddenly mean we are amazing tanks. It means we are useful tanks, but not necessarily more durable than Necro or Warden or even Nightblade. NB tanks have AOE HARD CC, better sustain than DK, and can take Silver Leash. They also have the only access to Major Evasion of any tank, along with Minor Resolve, %HP boosts, and a 54% Max HP HOT that also grants them Major Resolve. In just two skills.xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »DK doesnt suck. DK tanks are amazing, DK magDDs are still common in trials due to Engulfing Flames (if tank cant sustain it) and Zens. YOU just want DK to be amazing on every role but ZoS doesnt think that way and they wont unless they change how they think and change every class. Because (shocker) other classes also suffer from this. NB tanks have terrible sustain, no syngeries, no AoE soft CC, no magicka pull, dont bring any unique buff to the group etc. but you dont see NBs QQing in the forums how "terrible" the class is and referencing polls that dont have anything to do with the topic.
Except that Warden and Necro are clearly capable of performing every role well. We are the worst healers in the game, the worst DPS in the game, and make for merely mediocre tanks. It's time to stop parroting this idea that DK is the best tank just because that's the only role it can perform adequately on.xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »I will say this: DKs (like the other non DLC classes) were clearly designed around a role (tanking) and that is evident. If you want to play a healer play a Warden or Templar just like how I dropped my NB tank and use a DK for tanking. Or hope that ZoS overhauls every class and makes each class competitive on each role.
Honestly this is just too much. Youre right.. I finally see. DKs are literally the worst the class in the game, they cant heal, they cant tank, they cant DPS. ZoS pls buff Q_Q.
That being said; Im just going to reply with one sentence to your paragraphs.- You mean a sustain skill like NBs have, which costs 800 stamina and returns 4270 stamina back after 20secs and have no other way of obtaining instant stamina?
- You as a "DK tank main" should know that DK tanks stack magicka recovery; Balance + 2k mag recovery + Synergies + Hollowfang Thirst are more than enough to pretty much spam Fragmented Shield on GCD and regain stamina.
- I cast Echeoing Vigor to proc Powerful Assault which also heals me and my group as a nice side effect, guess you shouldve known that considering you are a "DK tank main".
- Sustain is 100% not worse on a DK tank than a DK DD, casting Stone Fist is 100% sustainable in a trial with a ton of Syngeries and you only have to use it every 6secs. Not only that but you also have healers running Hollowfang Thirst which restores magicka, which you can then transform into stamina! Happy Times!!
- NB tanks might be "tankier" but it doesnt have any synergies, AoE soft CC, good sustain, or any unique buffs. Also youre ignoring Magma Shell, the ulti that makes you basically unkillable which as a tank is a good thing! I also dont know why you wrote "HARD CC" in all caps considering you as a tank want AoE soft CC and should know that (considering you main a tank).
- I literally wrote " DKs (like the other non DLC classes)" and you proceeded to mention Warden and Necro. Good job!
- DKs are anything but mediocre tanks, but you clearly are trying to twist this whole subject into "omg DKs are the worst class in the game and arent viable on any role".
To quote myself:
"The comments in this thread however are nothing but a DK pitty party and making out DKs to be terrible/"not-viable" at any role which is wrong."
That being said, I cant be bothered anymore and will stop replying to everybody in this thread. Good luck getting taken seriously when you bring up points which are filled with self pitty and/or wrong.
Edit: Here are some people who are really good tanks talking about tanking and tanking classes:Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on May 2, 2021 1:43PM0 -
Sangwyne✭✭✭✭✭
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Your tanking line is literally Dark Cloak. The skill heals for 54% of Max HP over 8s, grants Major Resolve, Minor Protection, and 3% increased Max HP just for slotting. There's a reason it's being nerfed, even if I personally disagree with the nerf. You also have Mirage for Major Evasion and Minor Resolve.xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »Yea nah... NB doesnt have healing or tanking skill lines.
The "tanking skill line" is: an offensive spammable, invisbility/HoT selfheal, AoE dmg/heal, AoE hardCC, offensive single target and AoE DoT/single target DoT + teleport.
Meanwhile, DK has no heal scaling off Max HP, as GDB scales off missing HP and definitely doesn't heal anywhere near as much, no Minor Protection, no %HP boosts, no Minor Resolve, and no Major Evasion. NB tanks are far better in Sunspire, for example.
You have a burst heal that doesn't even cost Magicka, allowing it to be spammed more than any other burst heal in the game, and grants Minor Mending. Your healing ultimate is quite solid and offers a synergy, an additional two healing skills in Funnel Health and Sap Essence, an actual sustain skill, and you gain 15% increased Magicka recovery, 8% increased Magicka, and have untyped Healing done boosts. Four healing skills, plus Refreshing Path and Consuming Darkness outside their healing line, for a total of 6.xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »The "healing skill line" is: a spammable which heals yourself/heals yourself and allies for a % of dmg done, a burst heal for allies, a single target DoT, sustain + self-heal skill and an AoE DMG spammable.
Meanwhile, DK has a total of two skills in their last line that heal allies, one of which is a burst heal that requires an enemy target, making it unreliable when that's exactly what a burst heal needs to be, and Ash Storm, which costs a truckload and sucks. Two healing skills, plus Cauterize, which I believe is the only HOT that ticks every 5s, heals one ally, and sucks, for a whopping 3 skills that heal allies. No healing ultimate, no Magicka recovery, no untyped Healing Done bonuses, no sustain skills, no increased Magicka, nada.
...xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »I didnt "lose anything" because Im right. I know that you guys want to twist this into something that it isnt, so just stop.xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »
And they are viable, you can hit high dmg numbers on a DK DD (100k DPS), and can also clear content with a DK healer. Thats literally what viable means.
Not everything needs to be competitive, just viable. You can't have six bis healer classes, one will always stand out anyway.xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »Just being able to clear content doesnt make the class/role competitive.
So lemme get this straight, he runs three Stam parses and only barely manages to hit 100570 on the very last parse. Meanwhile, I spent two minutes googling to find that every other Stam build can easily surpass that, some of which are the exact same guy's parses.
/watch?v=fTGPhAogtWU Necro 107k+
/watch?v=N2GKBDZYlao Warden 106k+
/watch?v=OI9cTH49Ftc Sorc 109k+
/watch?v=Lln7WpPGcAY Nightblade 104k+
/watch?v=sdkQ4a649vo Templar 104k+
So we are by far the worst DD and healer in the game, out of 6 classes. Why do you think DK is taken on tank? Maybe if we were actually the tankiest class in the game by far instead of only being used to tank because we literally can't do any other role, that would be ok, but guess what.
We are the only class in the game without a heal scaling off Max HP after next patch. No Minor Resolve, no Major Evasion, no Minor Protection, no Major Protection, no sustain skill, no purge, no flat HP boosts, no %HP boosts, no %damage reduction. The worst healing in the game. The worst sustain in the game. The only class restricted to melee.
People need to stop parroting this idea that DK is the best tank. DK is nowhere near as durable as Necro or Warden. Don't believe me? Take a look at the durability ratings in Sniker's PvP tier list, rated by dozens of experienced PvP players.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/568150/pvp-tierlist-for-flames-of-ambition/p1
DK is placed on tank because of its unique buffs and because it is garbage on every other role. Don't fool yourself.0 -
xI_The_Owl_Ix✭✭✭✭✭
Your tanking line is literally Dark Cloak. The skill heals for 54% of Max HP over 8s, grants Major Resolve, Minor Protection, and 3% increased Max HP just for slotting. There's a reason it's being nerfed, even if I personally disagree with the nerf. You also have Mirage for Major Evasion and Minor Resolve.xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »Yea nah... NB doesnt have healing or tanking skill lines.
The "tanking skill line" is: an offensive spammable, invisbility/HoT selfheal, AoE dmg/heal, AoE hardCC, offensive single target and AoE DoT/single target DoT + teleport.
Meanwhile, DK has no heal scaling off Max HP, as GDB scales off missing HP and definitely doesn't heal anywhere near as much, no Minor Protection, no %HP boosts, no Minor Resolve, and no Major Evasion. NB tanks are far better in Sunspire, for example.
You have a burst heal that doesn't even cost Magicka, allowing it to be spammed more than any other burst heal in the game, and grants Minor Mending. Your healing ultimate is quite solid and offers a synergy, an additional two healing skills in Funnel Health and Sap Essence, an actual sustain skill, and you gain 15% increased Magicka recovery, 8% increased Magicka, and have untyped Healing done boosts. Four healing skills, plus Refreshing Path and Consuming Darkness outside their healing line, for a total of 6.xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »The "healing skill line" is: a spammable which heals yourself/heals yourself and allies for a % of dmg done, a burst heal for allies, a single target DoT, sustain + self-heal skill and an AoE DMG spammable.
Meanwhile, DK has a total of two skills in their last line that heal allies, one of which is a burst heal that requires an enemy target, making it unreliable when that's exactly what a burst heal needs to be, and Ash Storm, which costs a truckload and sucks. Two healing skills, plus Cauterize, which I believe is the only HOT that ticks every 5s, heals one ally, and sucks, for a whopping 3 skills that heal allies. No healing ultimate, no Magicka recovery, no untyped Healing Done bonuses, no sustain skills, no increased Magicka, nada.
...xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »I didnt "lose anything" because Im right. I know that you guys want to twist this into something that it isnt, so just stop.xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »
And they are viable, you can hit high dmg numbers on a DK DD (100k DPS), and can also clear content with a DK healer. Thats literally what viable means.
Not everything needs to be competitive, just viable. You can't have six bis healer classes, one will always stand out anyway.xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »Just being able to clear content doesnt make the class/role competitive.
So lemme get this straight, he runs three Stam parses and only barely manages to hit 100570 on the very last parse. Meanwhile, I spent two minutes googling to find that every other Stam build can easily surpass that, some of which are the exact same guy's parses.
/watch?v=fTGPhAogtWU Necro 107k+
/watch?v=N2GKBDZYlao Warden 106k+
/watch?v=OI9cTH49Ftc Sorc 109k+
/watch?v=Lln7WpPGcAY Nightblade 104k+
/watch?v=sdkQ4a649vo Templar 104k+
So we are by far the worst DD and healer in the game, out of 6 classes. Why do you think DK is taken on tank? Maybe if we were actually the tankiest class in the game by far instead of only being used to tank because we literally can't do any other role, that would be ok, but guess what.
We are the only class in the game without a heal scaling off Max HP after next patch. No Minor Resolve, no Major Evasion, no Minor Protection, no Major Protection, no sustain skill, no purge, no flat HP boosts, no %HP boosts, no %damage reduction. The worst healing in the game. The worst sustain in the game. The only class restricted to melee.
People need to stop parroting this idea that DK is the best tank. DK is nowhere near as durable as Necro or Warden. Don't believe me? Take a look at the durability ratings in Sniker's PvP tier list, rated by dozens of experienced PvP players.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/568150/pvp-tierlist-for-flames-of-ambition/p1
DK is placed on tank because of its unique buffs and because it is garbage on every other role. Don't fool yourself.
Ok this is my last response, I just couldnt hold myself back.Your tanking line is literally Dark Cloak. The skill heals for 54% of Max HP over 8s, grants Major Resolve, Minor Protection, and 3% increased Max HP just for slotting. There's a reason it's being nerfed, even if I personally disagree with the nerf. You also have Mirage for Major Evasion and Minor Resolve.
Meanwhile, DK has no heal scaling off Max HP, as GDB scales off missing HP and definitely doesn't heal anywhere near as much, no Minor Protection, no %HP boosts, no Minor Resolve, and no Major Evasion. NB tanks are far better in Sunspire, for example.
Are you actually saying NB only needs a HP% based self heal to be a tank? Youre unironically saying that Dark Cloak, a self heal ability is the "whole tanking skill line" of a NB? LOL. Dark Cloak heals for 6% of the HP per second btw which translates to 48% over 8 seconds. Lets say you are a 40k HP tank, thats 2,4k HP every second. Good luck surviving through high dmg fights with that heal.
DK has a HP based heal. Its literally scales off missing HP... which scales with max HP (the more HP you have the more HP you will be missing). Its also spammable and saved my life bunch of times. In Unhallowed HM the boss will hit you for 30k+ DMG through block and you need to get back to max HP asap, good luck doing that with Dark Cloak!You have a burst heal that doesn't even cost Magicka, allowing it to be spammed more than any other burst heal in the game, and grants Minor Mending. Your healing ultimate is quite solid and offers a synergy, an additional two healing skills in Funnel Health and Sap Essence, an actual sustain skill, and you gain 15% increased Magicka recovery, 8% increased Magicka, and have untyped Healing done boosts. Four healing skills, plus Refreshing Path and Consuming Darkness outside their healing line, for a total of 6.
Meanwhile, DK has a total of two skills in their last line that heal allies, one of which is a burst heal that requires an enemy target, making it unreliable when that's exactly what a burst heal needs to be, and Ash Storm, which costs a truckload and sucks. Two healing skills, plus Cauterize, which I believe is the only HOT that ticks every 5s, heals one ally, and sucks, for a whopping 3 skills that heal allies. No healing ultimate, no Magicka recovery, no untyped Healing Done bonuses, no sustain skills, no increased Magicka, nada.
The burst heal you mention isnt good if you spam it because it will melt trough your HP and kill you. DK has also access to Major Mending, your point? Healers only use War Horn as ulti anyway, so NB having a good heal means nothing. Funnel Health isnt useful on a healer unless you play it like a DPS, same goes for Sap Essence. Why would you count a self sustain skill as a healing ability? Refreshing Path is a good heal, true. Consuming Darkness is a dead ulti that no healer or tank uses.
The thing is I still dont disagree with you about DK healing. I dont understand why you still argue about it.So lemme get this straight, he runs three Stam parses and only barely manages to hit 100570 on the very last parse. Meanwhile, I spent two minutes googling to find that every other Stam build can easily surpass that, some of which are the exact same guy's parses.
/watch?v=fTGPhAogtWU Necro 107k+
/watch?v=N2GKBDZYlao Warden 106k+
/watch?v=OI9cTH49Ftc Sorc 109k+
/watch?v=Lln7WpPGcAY Nightblade 104k+
/watch?v=sdkQ4a649vo Templar 104k+
So we are by far the worst DD and healer in the game, out of 6 classes. Why do you think DK is taken on tank? Maybe if we were actually the tankiest class in the game by far instead of only being used to tank because we literally can't do any other role, that would be ok, but guess what.
No they arent by "far" the worst DD. Stam DK DD hits only 4k less than Stam NB DD which as a role is supposed to be a DD. NB doesnt have a good tank or healer. And apparently hits only 4k more than a DK which is according to you is the worst DD in the game/not viable.
Heres the thing, tanks on ESO dont have to be super tanky. They need to debuff/buff the boss/the group with unique buffs/debuffs while having good self sustain and decent tankiness. Guess which class excels at that? The DK tank!
We are the only class in the game without a heal scaling off Max HP after next patch. No Minor Resolve, no Major Evasion, no Minor Protection, no Major Protection, no sustain skill, no purge, no flat HP boosts, no %HP boosts, no %damage reduction. The worst healing in the game. The worst sustain in the game. The only class restricted to melee.
And DKs are the only class in the game with 2 unique buffs which can be applied by the tank! Hooray!!
This also makes it sound like you want every self buff available on DK. Good balancing!People need to stop parroting this idea that DK is the best tank. DK is nowhere near as durable as Necro or Warden. Don't believe me? Take a look at the durability ratings in Sniker's PvP tier list, rated by dozens of experienced PvP players.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/568150/pvp-tierlist-for-flames-of-ambition/p1
DK is placed on tank because of its unique buffs and because it is garbage on every other role. Don't fool yourself.
And this is where you lost me, completely. You legit linked a PvP tierlist in a discussion about PvE tanking. While great tanks like NefasQS and others who literally do all PvE hardmode content as a tank, all rank the DK at number one due to the unique buffs and easy sustain.
Here
And here
I dont know what else to say to you besides that youre wrong and I would still like to know what content you tanked that you believe that "tankiness" equals "good tank". You say DK DDs are "garbage" when in reality they only hit 4k less than a class dedicated to being a DD.
And I will end this by quoting myself again:Good luck getting taken seriously when you bring up points which are filled with self pitty and/or wrong.Edited by xI_The_Owl_Ix on May 2, 2021 4:43AM0 -
Sangwyne✭✭✭✭✭
✭xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »[snip]
..What's with the accusations? I've tanked every dungeon, some Vet DLC dungeons on HM like Fang Lair, Unhallowed, Frostvault, Thorn, and Mazzatun, along with Sunspire, CR, and Halls. Spent several hundred hours on this guy alone, not claiming to be Alcast, but still qualified enough to look at a poll where DK has 75% of the votes for worst healing in the game or 55% of the votes for worst sustain in the game and understand that's not good.xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »I would love to know which content you tanked though. @Sangwyne
Leeching strikes also restores Stamina on Light attacks as well as Stamina after 20s, and you forgot Incap too, which when slotted restores both Stamina and Magicka on Light attacks. That's two more sustain skills than DK has. And if you're bringing up Combustion, which tanks barely proc, don't forget NB's Executioner and Refreshing Shadows passives. I play DK. Do you play NB?xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »[*] You mean a sustain skill like NBs have, which costs 800 stamina and returns 4270 stamina back after 20secs and have no other way of obtaining instant stamina?
Why do you think we need to stack Magicka Recovery, use Balance, and rely on Hollowfang and synergies from healer?xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »[*] You as a "DK tank main" should know that DK tanks stack magicka recovery; Balance + 2k mag recovery + Synergies + Hollowfang Thirst are more than enough to pretty much spam Fragmented Shield on GCD and regain stamina.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563487/pve-what-class-got-the-worst-sustain/p1
And chill with the personal attacks.
You specifically said you used it to heal back Balance and never mentioned PA. And again, I'm not attacking you, I am bringing up the issues with DK, no need to be hostile.xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »[*] I cast Echeoing Vigor to proc Powerful Assault which also heals me and my group as a nice side effect, guess you shouldve known that considering you are a "DK tank main".
Stam DK uses Stone Giant too, it's the only thing the class is good for lol. Stone Giant needs to be recast more than every 6s as it requires 3 stacks to max, only lasts 6s, but has a cast time of 0.6s on first cast and drops block.xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »[*] Sustain is 100% not worse on a DK tank than a DK DD, casting Stone Fist is 100% sustainable in a trial with a ton of Syngeries and you only have to use it every 6secs. Not only that but you also have healers running Hollowfang Thirst which restores magicka, which you can then transform into stamina! Happy Times!!
Thank you for acknowledging Nightblade is tankier. I realize DK is brought due to its unique buffs, but it would be nice if the only thing preventing us from never being brought to anything weren't just a couple group buffs and we were actually able to compete on our own merit. Again, the "best tank" isn't necessarily the tankiest, just the one that brings the most to the group, and sadly DK doesn't bring anything as healer or DD, has the absolute lowest damage, absolute worst healing, and isn't even the tankiest class. We are exclusively a buff-bot in trials.xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »[*] NB tanks might be "tankier" but it doesnt have any synergies, AoE soft CC, good sustain, or any unique buffs. Also youre ignoring Magma Shell, the ulti that makes you basically unkillable which as a tank is a good thing! I also dont know why you wrote "HARD CC" in all caps considering you as a tank want AoE soft CC and should know that (considering you main a tank).Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on May 2, 2021 1:44PM0 -
Sangwyne✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Like I said, Dark Cloak heals for 54% of Max HP. 9 ticks of 6% each. One instantly, one after 1s, 2s, etc. You should really know your class before accusing others of not knowing theirs. That's 21600 HP out of 40k, Minor Protection, Major Resolve, and 3% increased HP just for slotting.xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »Your tanking line is literally Dark Cloak. The skill heals for 54% of Max HP over 8s, grants Major Resolve, Minor Protection, and 3% increased Max HP just for slotting. There's a reason it's being nerfed, even if I personally disagree with the nerf.
Are you actually saying NB only needs a HP% based self heal to be a tank? Youre unironically saying that Dark Cloak, a self heal ability is the "whole tanking skill line" of a NB? LOL. Dark Cloak heals for 6% of the HP per second btw which translates to 48% over 8 seconds. Lets say you are a 40k HP tank, thats 2,4k HP every second. Good luck surviving through high dmg fights with that heal.
DK has a HP based heal. Its literally scales off missing HP... which scales with max HP (the more HP you have the more HP you will be missing). Its also spammable and saved my life bunch of times. In Unhallowed HM the boss will hit you for 30k+ DMG through block and you need to get back to max HP asap, good luck doing that with Dark Cloak!
GDB scales off missing, not Max HP. The difference is massive, especially in PvP where being in execute range means you are already dead. Every other class has a %Max HP heal now. Necro has Hungry Scythe, which is over 1k cheaper than GDB, deals damage, burst heals off %Max HP, is a HOT off %Max HP, and heals more for each additional enemy. Warden has Arctic Blast, which heals for 25% instantly, an additional 15% over 5s because why not, stuns, and damages, and is cheaper than GDB. Sorc has Clannfear for 30% Max HP plus 8% increased HP for slotting, plus damage. Nightblade has Dark Cloak. Templar now has both Living Dark and Channeled Focus for Major Resolve, 242 Mag/s, 4.5% Max HP/s, all for a 25s duration, at a quarter of the cost of GDB. Why does our tank heal suck, and why does it scale off missing HP instead of just Max HP like literally every other class?
Ok, thank you. I am not saying NB healing is good either, I agree with you and think it needs buffs. But holy guacamole, DK's healing is absolutely atrocious.xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »The thing is I still dont disagree with you about DK healing. I dont understand why you still argue about it.
Of 5 classes, the top and 2nd lowest DPS are within 5k of each other. Then suddenly DK is 4000 below the next worst. We call that an "outlier". And most important of all, on top of that, that Stam DK parse MASSIVELY depends on Stagger, which is the only thing separating other parses. Trial Dummy does not have Stagger. Add that, and Stam DK's parse remains at 100k but everyone else shoots up several thousand. It is by far the worst DPS. Case closed.xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »Stam DK DD hits only 4k less than Stam NB DD which as a role is supposed to be a DD. NB doesnt have a good tank or healer. And apparently hits only 4k more than a DK which is according to you is the worst DD in the game/not viable.
Exactly. They don't need to be tanky, they just need to know the mechanics and be a buff bot.xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »Heres the thing, tanks on ESO dont have to be super tanky. They need to debuff/buff the boss/the group with unique buffs/debuffs while having good self sustain and decent tankiness. Guess which class excels at that? The DK tank!
...That isn't a good argument for DK being tanky. It's relegated to a buff bot. That's my point.
Last time. It's #1 tank because no one wants it on any other role, but they need the unique buffs. "Best tank"= tank that brings the most to group. But in PvP, you actually do need to be tanky, and no one cares that you bring Stagger. Hence why PvP is the best indication of how durable a class is. And we are not as durable as Necro or Warden.xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »And this is where you lost me, completely. You legit linked a PvP tierlist in a discussion about PvE tanking. While great tanks like NefasQS and others who literally do all PvE hardmode content as a tank, all rank the DK at number one due to the unique buffs and easy sustain.
So, to reiterate: We are the worst DPS. The worst healer. With the worst sustain. And not even the tankiest. ZOS had to tack on several unique debuffs on DK just to make sure people would take it, instead of buffing the class so it could compete. It's a bandaid, so that we could be invited to the cool kid's club. We are a buff bot.xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »I dont know what else to say to you besides that youre wrong and I would still like to know what content you tanked that you believe that "tankiness" equals "good tank". You say DK DDs are "garbage" when in reality they only hit 4k less than a class dedicated to being a DD.
I have said the exact opposite this entire time. My point is, we aren't tanky. We don't do damage. We don't heal. We don't sustain. We are the only class limited to melee. We are worse than every other class in multiple regards.
[snip]
[Edited to remove Inappropriate Content]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on May 2, 2021 1:45PM1 -
ZOS_ConnorGmodGreetings all,
After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for rule violations, mostly Baiting. Ensure when engaging in a discussion that you keep said discussion civil, constructive, and within the rules. If you see a post that is baiting in nature do not engage it with further hostility and instead report it for the moderators to review.
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ResidentContrarian✭✭✭✭✭phantasmalD wrote: »Bodycounter wrote: »
- Dragonkight has the worst access to Major Mending
Compared to who? Only two classes have native buffs for Major Mending, so just by virtue of having it in the first place, DK has better access than 2/3 of the roster.
That being said, it is attached to a borderline unusable skill and is rarely ever useful to have.
Well think of it this way: DK having access to major mending is one thing the class is balanced around, and yet, due to the class' terrible sustain and implementation of it, it is better to heavy attack every time in any context if you want that buff.2 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DK doesn’t seem to have great heals, but as a support build they are irreplaceable. I’ve seen DK healers provide Stagger, Engulfing, Molten Weapons, Z’en’s, Martial Knowledge and Minor Brutality, in addition to the typical Combat Prayer, Warhorn, etc. It looks difficult, but brings a lot to the table.
Nightblade is worse IMO because they bring nothing unique. Just Minor Savagery, no other debuffs on bosses or buffs for allies, no synergies. They have a few decent heals, but so do Restoration Staff and guild skill lines.
IMO Nightblade needs at least one unique debuff. A semi-unique buff would be nice too, possibly groupwide Major Savagery and Major Prophecy. This would enable groups to use Heroism or dropped potions without slotting Inner Light or Camo Hunter, and would have similar utility to DK’s Igneous Weapons or Warden’s Frostcloak.Edited by WrathOfInnos on May 2, 2021 11:15PM2 -
nihoumab14_ESO✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »DK doesn’t seem to have great heals, but as a support build they are irreplaceable. I’ve seen DK healers provide Stagger, Engulfing, Molten Weapons, Z’en’s, Martial Knowledge and Minor Brutality, in addition to the typical Combat Prayer, Warhorn, etc. It looks difficult, but brings a lot to the table.
Nightblade is worse IMO because they bring nothing unique. Just Minor Savagery, no other debuffs on bosses or buffs for allies, no synergies. They have a few decent heals, but so do Restoration Staff and guild skill lines.
IMO Nightblade needs at least one unique debuff. A semi-unique buff would be nice too, possibly groupwide Major Savagery and Major Prophecy. This would enable groups to use Heroism or dropped potions without slotting Inner Light or Camo Hunter, and would have similar utility to DK’s Igneous Weapons or Warden’s Frostcloak.
Those are things Dragonknights bring only if specifically built for it, and it's a play style only useful in trials. Outside of very, very specific builds, dragonknight healers are the worst healers in the game by a wide margin. Can they complete content? Yes, but that's like saying someone can beat a dungeon only using light attacks. Sure, it's doable under the right circumstances, but not very fun at all, and you won't be successful in other areas just because you managed to eke by in one very specific content type with one very specific build.0 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »DK doesn’t seem to have great heals, but as a support build they are irreplaceable. I’ve seen DK healers provide Stagger, Engulfing, Molten Weapons, Z’en’s, Martial Knowledge and Minor Brutality, in addition to the typical Combat Prayer, Warhorn, etc. It looks difficult, but brings a lot to the table.
That build may sound great to you, but that's a healer without a burst heal (because stagger comes from the alternate morph) that isn't providing Major Courage or hemoglobin balls (from Hollowfang Thirst). Additionally, the buffs from Molten Weapons are almost certainly redundant with what people are already getting from potions (or individually slotted skills), and Engulfing Flames and Minor Brutality are only useful if the group doesn't have any other DKs.1 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »DK doesn’t seem to have great heals, but as a support build they are irreplaceable. I’ve seen DK healers provide Stagger, Engulfing, Molten Weapons, Z’en’s, Martial Knowledge and Minor Brutality, in addition to the typical Combat Prayer, Warhorn, etc. It looks difficult, but brings a lot to the table.
That build may sound great to you, but that's a healer without a burst heal (because stagger comes from the alternate morph) that isn't providing Major Courage or hemoglobin balls (from Hollowfang Thirst). Additionally, the buffs from Molten Weapons are almost certainly redundant with what people are already getting from potions (or individually slotted skills), and Engulfing Flames and Minor Brutality are only useful if the group doesn't have any other DKs.
Yeah, it’s a trial build specifically designed for a group with no other DK’s. Most healing classes wouldn’t slot their single target burst heal for trials anyway, especially on a Zens build. Major Courage and Hollowfang are handled by the other healer, since MK/Zens is only a healer setup when DPS are running their own Major Slayer so RO/Jorv isn’t needed. And Molten Weapons is used specifically to enable Heroism potions that cannot be made with Major Sorcery.0