What is the Worst Healing Class 2021

etchedpixels

MagDK is ok as a "we don't have a DK tank and we don't really need much healing" healer but doesn't compare with warden or templar. It's basically a slightly confused DD with a restro staff and molten weapons, not a healer proper.

Sangwyne

etchedpixels wrote: »

MagDK is ok as a "we don't have a DK tank and we don't really need much healing" healer but doesn't compare with warden or templar. It's basically a slightly confused DD with a restro staff and molten weapons, not a healer proper.

Please don't downplay just how badly the class sucks. It's not ok. It's not "slightly confused", it's not even "just" not ok, it's downright godawful. There are over 3x more votes for Dragonknight alone as the absolute worst healer in the game than every other class combined. This is on top of the poll a month ago, where DK had more votes for worst sustain in the game than every other class combined.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563487/pve-what-class-got-the-worst-sustain/p1
This is on top of Alcast's DPS tier list putting DK in the absolute worst damage category, twice, when there's only 3 slots total in the last category. https://alcasthq.com/eso-dps-tier-list-best-damage-classes/
Sniker's PvP tier list has us tied with Templar for dead last. Except templar got a buff and we didn't.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/568150/pvp-tierlist-for-flames-of-ambition/p1
ESOlogs, leaderboards, trials, PvP, all unanimous in how bad DK is compared to every other class now.

When do we wake up and realize the class is careening off a cliff?

xI_The_Owl_Ix

The issue is that you guys need to realize that this game isnt "play as you want". Classes have definitve roles. I dont think theres a class in the game that can do all three roles.

DK - Good Tank and Ok DD
NB - Good DD and Ok Tank
Templar - Good Healer and Ok DD
Sorc - Good DD and Ok Healer
Necro - Good DD and Ok Tank/Healer
Warden - Good Tank and Good Healer

The DLC classes are probably the only ones which are designed around the "each skill line is a role" approach. The non DLC classes all suffer from role specific issues. Which to be honest sucks, but I also dont see ZoS changing this anytime soon. My only hope is class change tokens because I know ZoS wont fix their classes or how they see the roles.

Just watch a ZoS stream and I can guarantee you'll always see a DK tank with warden or templar healer and at least one sorc DD.

Tommy_The_Gun

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Someone voted nightblade? Really? Huh.

Maybe someone who plays stam NB. They do not have any "amazing" heal ability and have to rely on non-class healing. Leeching Strikes is more like a sustain tool, rather than healing and mark target requiers killing an enemy. Mag NB on the other hand has some nice healing abilities, so as a whole, NB is not bad. Nothing amazing, but definitely not the worst. DK probably has weakest healing overall, but it is content - dependent.

lolo_01b16_ESO

In terms of pure healing dks are actually not that bad. Their problem is that dk tanks are very popular and they don't have any unique skills or buffs that can't easiely be used on a tank.

Joy_Division

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Who voted Templar? 🤦‍♂️
🤣🤣🤣

Someone who has recognized the game has changed a lot since 2014.

What exactly is the templar healer providing in 2021 that Necros, Wardens, Sorcerers, and Nightblades can;t? I've been in three PvP guilds and each of them have long since moved off Templars as the primary healer years ago. We keep one templar not because they are a great healer, but they provide the minor sorcery buff and the class is the most reliable way to proc armor sets with the "when you heal an ally buffs." A sorcerer healer for example has high passive healing through the Surge skill, has probably the useful ultimate in the game (Negate), has a burst heal that hits higher than the Templars, isn;t restricted by positional requirements, and hits two targets for full value. And a sorcerer healer who finds them self in trouble just goes *poof* with Streak that a slow templar simply can't do. Shards used to be the big reason why Templars were sought for support, but Orbs are much better because the skill outputs much better numbers and can be synergized by everyone (in which the synergy is also a burst heal or damage). And every class can use that just fine. Nightblade heal tether is an amazing ultimate that they can use without just standing there as the group moves away from them like Templars have to with their healing ultimate. Wardens have easy access to Major Mending. ZOS has made a conscious effort so that every class can not only fulfill the role of healer, but be very good at it. The only class that doesn't really measure up is the DK, mostly because it's original design was front-line melee combatant.

Vevvev

Sangwyne wrote: »

Now that Templar's been buffed and has two %HP heals scaling off Max Health, DK is now also the only class in the game without a %Max HP heal, as GDB scales off %missing health instead for some reason. It's the only heal in the game to do so.

Forgot about Vampiric Drain and we all know everyone's thoughts on that mess of an ability.

FantasticFreddie

Seraphayel wrote: »

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Anyone voting sorc havent seen fully-stacked sorc healers in PvP. It's the only class whose burst heal heals 2 ppl without any aiming required. You have double shields so you don't even need to go heavy armor, you can sit behind 20k shields all the time. And when opponents prioritize you you make zap-zap and they have to adapt to your repositioning.

Different story in pve

In what kind of PvE content do you need the best healer?

This thread has no differentiation for content types which is a problem. The Sorcerer pet heal is incredibly strong in PvE and PvP. Every class can heal in 99% of the PvE content and be successful etc.

Are we talking about veteran dungeons and hard mode raids? Then it might make a huge difference. Are we talking about base trials? Even Dragon Knights can sufficiently heal them.

So this poll is pretty much useless as it's not separated into PvE / PvP etc.

Doesn't matter, dk is worst in all of them

MashmalloMan

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Someone voted nightblade? Really? Huh.

Of them, I'd say either DK or sorc. They have tools that work wonky to me. A burst heal that requires an enemy to target (dk), and a burst heal that can die (sorc).

I agree with you ranking Sorcerer as the second-worst.

IMO, Power Surge in particular needs some adjustment.

It's conditioned on a Critical Heal, has a minimum cooldown of 3 seconds, and it only heals 6 targets. It seems meant to be the class DoT HoT but, similarly to DK's Cauterize, the overly long cooldown really hinders its usefulness.

Yes, it will show up as a significant source of healing on a log but it's almost always passive (and wasted) overhealing. When your team is actually taking damage it is of next to no use since it is literally doing nothing during 2/3 of your overall GCDs, and, when it does heal, it only works on half of the raid. Under ideal circumstances, you can only heal a given team member with this ability once every 6 GCDs which is ridiculous.

Lower the cooldown to 1 second and lower the amount that's healed to balance it out. You can do the same amount of raw healing but it will be FAR more useful as an actual HoT.

🤣 They recommend power surge on sorc tank. 10 percent chance of 3k every 3 secs.

Thats most likely because it just hasn't been updated. The skill use to provide both Major Brutality and (Sorcery) as it's unique morph effect, so it was technically the right option seeing as tanks typically build as hybrids in a way. Now it's a healing skill and the base skill provides both major buffs, so crit surge is clearly the better option for tanks, at least as a way to heal themselves. If you could proc Power Surge, it would technically be nice on a tank since they're a support role, but it only procs from crit heals which you'll never have soooo..

With all the nerfs to crit and crit from cp, I'm not sure it's worth running at all for a tank. You use to just get 12% crit from cp 1.0 when the skill suggestions were created so a base of 22% crit was good enough with aoe procs.

GreenHere

Sangwyne wrote: »

Juuuuuust gonna leave this right here.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563487/pve-what-class-got-the-worst-sustain/p1
So DK has more votes for the worst healing in the game, and more votes for the worst sustain in the game, than every other class combined. Hmmm. Now ask yourself which class deals the least damage in the game, and which DPS you see the least in trials and at the top of leaderboards. Spoiler alert. Stam DK.

Now that Templar's been buffed and has two %HP heals scaling off Max Health, DK is now also the only class in the game without a %Max HP heal, as GDB scales off %missing health instead for some reason. It's the only heal in the game to do so. DK relies more on HP regen than every other class (with passives like 5% increased health regen, wooo), and that's now been cut in half by Battle Spirit. We just need one final nerf to really seal the deal, and then we can truly be the absolute worst class in the game, in literally every role.

We're almost there.

Whenever I see posts like this, I get this sinking feeling that it will be somecrazyhow misinterpreted over at ZOS hq and end up resulting in a nerf. :P


"DKs are underperforming across the board, and are generally unwanted in organized groups, eh? Better take a look at toning down that Noxious Breath asap!" ~ ZOS, probably.

Starlight_Whisper

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

The issue is that you guys need to realize that this game isnt "play as you want". Classes have definitve roles. I dont think theres a class in the game that can do all three roles.

DK - Good Tank and Ok DD
NB - Good DD and Ok Tank
Templar - Good Healer and Ok DD
Sorc - Good DD and Ok Healer
Necro - Good DD and Ok Tank/Healer
Warden - Good Tank and Good Healer

The DLC classes are probably the only ones which are designed around the "each skill line is a role" approach. The non DLC classes all suffer from role specific issues. Which to be honest sucks, but I also dont see ZoS changing this anytime soon. My only hope is class change tokens because I know ZoS wont fix their classes or how they see the roles.

Just watch a ZoS stream and I can guarantee you'll always see a DK tank with warden or templar healer and at least one sorc DD.

Just because dreams are like that does not mean game is meant to just be played like that. Would be boring otherwise. I am 5 years in this game. So I know things change

Athan1

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

The DLC classes are probably the only ones which are designed around the "each skill line is a role" approach.

I would agree, the DLC classes came about when the dev team was more mature as to the game's scope and needs. Imo every class shoulda been this way, given the "play as you want" approach. Having said that, I don't find it problematic that some classes lean more towards specific roles or that their skill lines aren't too well-defined.

phantasmalD

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

I dont think theres a class in the game that can do all three roles.
[....]
Necro - Good DD and Ok Tank/Healer
[...]

Nice meme.


Every class has a build advisor for every role, so it's pretty silly to claim that classes aren't meant to be able to fulfill every role.
Plus Templar has just received tanking related buffs on PTS.

Players sticking to conventional builds like DK tank and templar healer is more of a player mentality issue then an actual reflection of the game's balance.

Ishtarknows

I voted DK because the class buffs/debuffs are usually provided by a dk tank. Everything else is just heals, which all classes can do. They bring very little to the group.

Sangwyne

Vevvev wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

Now that Templar's been buffed and has two %HP heals scaling off Max Health, DK is now also the only class in the game without a %Max HP heal, as GDB scales off %missing health instead for some reason. It's the only heal in the game to do so.

Forgot about Vampiric Drain and we all know everyone's thoughts on that mess of an ability.

Ah right, that exists. I tried finding other abilities for comparison but couldn't. It's honestly kind of sad how difficult it is to find an ability that's so bad you can actually compare it to a DK skill and wonder which is worse. Still probably the DK skill.

xI_The_Owl_Ix

phantasmalD wrote: »

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

I dont think theres a class in the game that can do all three roles.
[....]
Necro - Good DD and Ok Tank/Healer
[...]

Nice meme.


Every class has a build advisor for every role, so it's pretty silly to claim that classes aren't meant to be able to fulfill every role.
Plus Templar has just received tanking related buffs on PTS.

Players sticking to conventional builds like DK tank and templar healer is more of a player mentality issue then an actual reflection of the game's balance.

I also said (literally afterwards) that the DLC classes are probably the only ones designed around all three roles.

DKs tanks arent used for "player mentality", the have a very good stamina sustain skill which they can basically spam forever by using balance to regenerate magicka. They also get sustain through ultimate use, have good passives and can apply unique buffs (breath + stone fist). They also have support skills other classed struggle with (magicka chain/pull, AoE soft CC, skills with synergies).
Im sorry but DK is still the best tank due to these reasons and thats why it wont ever be a good healer, because thats how ZoS operates.

Starlight_Whisper

phantasmalD wrote: »

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

I dont think theres a class in the game that can do all three roles.
[....]
Necro - Good DD and Ok Tank/Healer
[...]

Nice meme.


Every class has a build advisor for every role, so it's pretty silly to claim that classes aren't meant to be able to fulfill every role.
Plus Templar has just received tanking related buffs on PTS.

Players sticking to conventional builds like DK tank and templar healer is more of a player mentality issue then an actual reflection of the game's balance.

Yep

phantasmalD

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

they have a very good stamina sustain skill which they can basically spam forever by using balance to regenerate magicka.

Oh boy, spend 10k hp and your healer's sanity for 990 stamina. What a truly OP, broken skill combo. Nothing like that weak, useless skill, Dark Deal, restoring 8k HP and 6k stamina for 2k magicka. Or that silly Bull Netch, restoring 4k stamina and purging 1 for no cost at all. Nah, Helping Hands is da boss.

[There's also the tiny, tiny issue of not having enough bar space to consistently run an Earthen Heart ability]

They also get sustain through ultimate use

And other classes just get pure, constant sustain without needing to insta use their ulti for maximum value.
[In organized groups you use your ulti when the group needs it, not when you need it. Which means you are wasting sustain while waiting for your cue]

have good passives

Only like 4-5 of them are relevant for tanks.

can apply unique buffs (breath + stone fist).

Both of which are balanced to be used by DDs and/or not fun to use + tanks don't have the bar space for

magicka chain/pull

Prob indeed a slightly more comfortable to use skill than the alternate versions, but being able to pull is not unique to DKs. Not anymore.

AoE soft CC

Because no other class have CCs, it's not like Sorcerers have an entire tree dedicated to them.

skills with synergies

A total of two. One of which is a DD ulti, so you can't use, the other which bosses are immune to, so you can't use.
Let's ignore that Templars have like 3 unconditional synergies, truly DK is the king of synergy opportunities.

I'm not saying DKs are terrible tanks, but they aren't far ahead of the competition at all. People are just used to DKs being tanks AND DKs suck in any other role.

Sangwyne

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

DKs tanks arent used for "player mentality", the have a very good stamina sustain skill which they can basically spam forever by using balance to regenerate magicka. They also get sustain through ultimate use, have good passives and can apply unique buffs (breath + stone fist). They also have support skills other classed struggle with (magicka chain/pull, AoE soft CC, skills with synergies).
Im sorry but DK is still the best tank due to these reasons and thats why it wont ever be a good healer, because thats how ZoS operates.

So we need to use a non-class skill which drains 6k HP, along with reducing our healing done and shielding by a whopping 50% for 4s just to not even obtain enough Magicka to cast a single Earthen Heart skill, so that we can get not even 1k stamina back.

...You do realize how ridiculous that sounds, right? Other classes just get resources. Warden hits Netch and gets Stamina. The skill is free and purges. We don't have a purge. Or a sustain skill. We have to waste multiple passives on this convoluted method to obtain resources just to still have less sustain than everyone else.

Look at this: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563487/pve-what-class-got-the-worst-sustain/p1

Why do we have several polls where we are not just the worst class, but worse than every other class combined??

Why do I have to italicize every other word just to drive home the point that DK sucks? We have the worst healing in the game by far, the worst sustain in the game by far, the worst DPS in the game by far, and are simultaneously the worst PvP class in the game by far (since Templar was buffed) and also the worst PvE solo class in the game, by far.

BRUH.

xI_The_Owl_Ix

Sangwyne wrote: »

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

DKs tanks arent used for "player mentality", the have a very good stamina sustain skill which they can basically spam forever by using balance to regenerate magicka. They also get sustain through ultimate use, have good passives and can apply unique buffs (breath + stone fist). They also have support skills other classed struggle with (magicka chain/pull, AoE soft CC, skills with synergies).
Im sorry but DK is still the best tank due to these reasons and thats why it wont ever be a good healer, because thats how ZoS operates.

So we need to use a non-class skill which drains 6k HP, along with reducing our healing done and shielding by a whopping 50% for 4s just to not even obtain enough Magicka to cast a single Earthen Heart skill, so that we can get not even 1k stamina back.

...You do realize how ridiculous that sounds, right? Other classes just get resources. Warden hits Netch and gets Stamina. The skill is free and purges. We don't have a purge. Or a sustain skill. We have to waste multiple passives on this convoluted method to obtain resources just to still have less sustain than everyone else.

Look at this: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563487/pve-what-class-got-the-worst-sustain/p1

Why do we have several polls where we are not just the worst class, but worse than every other class combined??

Why do I have to italicize every other word just to drive home the point that DK sucks? We have the worst healing in the game by far, the worst sustain in the game by far, the worst DPS in the game by far, and are simultaneously the worst PvP class in the game by far (since Templar was buffed) and also the worst PvE solo class in the game, by far.

BRUH.

[snip]
DK tanks stack magicka recovery and use Balance for basically infinte magicka which they can transform into instant stamina, not only that but the ulti also gives resources back (just using Warhorn gives 13k hp, 11,5k stam and mag back).On addition they get 500 mag back by applying burning effect, which is easy to apply by simply using chains on a boss (which costs 0 mag) or by using Engulfing Flames.
You bring up Netch like its OP when in reality it cant be spammed and only restores 176 stam per second (the purge effect is nice tho). Meanwhile on my DK tank I can just use Balance and spam Fragmented Shield for 990 stam per cast then drop a Warhorn and restore 11,5k mag and stam...
Btw 5k HP is barely noticable on a tank, especially in a trial with 2 healers. I run vet DLC HM dungeons without a healer and have 0 issues with HP and I use Balance. 1,5k Hp recovery + Major Mending with Echoing Vigor is enough to basically insta heal you back up to full HP even with the 50% healing debuff.

You bring up a poll about worst sustain but ignore the role. I also wouldve voted on DK on that poll but not because tank sustain is terrible (its amazing) but because DD sustain sucks. The same way I voted for DK for worst healer eventho they can heal trials and dungeons without issues. They just dont bring anything to the table that the DK tank cant bring, making the DK healer not competitive against a templar who can spam synergies and has better class heals.

DK doesnt suck. DK tanks are amazing, DK magDDs are still common in trials due to Engulfing Flames (if tank cant sustain it) and Zens. YOU just want DK to be amazing on every role but ZoS doesnt think that way and they wont unless they change how they think and change every class. Because (shocker) other classes also suffer from this. NB tanks have terrible sustain, no syngeries, no AoE soft CC, no magicka pull, dont bring any unique buff to the group etc. but you dont see NBs QQing in the forums how "terrible" the class is and referencing polls that dont have anything to do with the topic.

I will say this: DKs (like the other non DLC classes) were clearly designed around a role (tanking) and that is evident. If you want to play a healer play a Warden or Templar just like how I dropped my NB tank and use a DK for tanking. Or hope that ZoS overhauls every class and makes each class competitive on each role.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

xI_The_Owl_Ix

phantasmalD wrote: »

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

they have a very good stamina sustain skill which they can basically spam forever by using balance to regenerate magicka.

Oh boy, spend 10k hp and your healer's sanity for 990 stamina. What a truly OP, broken skill combo. Nothing like that weak, useless skill, Dark Deal, restoring 8k HP and 6k stamina for 2k magicka. Or that silly Bull Netch, restoring 4k stamina and purging 1 for no cost at all. Nah, Helping Hands is da boss.

[There's also the tiny, tiny issue of not having enough bar space to consistently run an Earthen Heart ability]

They also get sustain through ultimate use

And other classes just get pure, constant sustain without needing to insta use their ulti for maximum value.
[In organized groups you use your ulti when the group needs it, not when you need it. Which means you are wasting sustain while waiting for your cue]

have good passives

Only like 4-5 of them are relevant for tanks.

can apply unique buffs (breath + stone fist).

Both of which are balanced to be used by DDs and/or not fun to use + tanks don't have the bar space for

magicka chain/pull

Prob indeed a slightly more comfortable to use skill than the alternate versions, but being able to pull is not unique to DKs. Not anymore.

AoE soft CC

Because no other class have CCs, it's not like Sorcerers have an entire tree dedicated to them.

skills with synergies

A total of two. One of which is a DD ulti, so you can't use, the other which bosses are immune to, so you can't use.
Let's ignore that Templars have like 3 unconditional synergies, truly DK is the king of synergy opportunities.

I'm not saying DKs are terrible tanks, but they aren't far ahead of the competition at all. People are just used to DKs being tanks AND DKs suck in any other role.

Im not even going to bother replying to someone who doesnt know the difference between a soft and a hard CC and thinks that DKs only have 4-5 tanking passives when in reality its 10 passives out of 12.

GrimTheReaper45

I understand the people saying DK, Id probably agree in terms of pure heals. However I feel like DK has at least some group utility, not saying good group utility but some. Sorc really doesnt have anything good or bad for group utility.

phantasmalD

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

phantasmalD wrote: »

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

they have a very good stamina sustain skill which they can basically spam forever by using balance to regenerate magicka.

Oh boy, spend 10k hp and your healer's sanity for 990 stamina. What a truly OP, broken skill combo. Nothing like that weak, useless skill, Dark Deal, restoring 8k HP and 6k stamina for 2k magicka. Or that silly Bull Netch, restoring 4k stamina and purging 1 for no cost at all. Nah, Helping Hands is da boss.

[There's also the tiny, tiny issue of not having enough bar space to consistently run an Earthen Heart ability]

They also get sustain through ultimate use

And other classes just get pure, constant sustain without needing to insta use their ulti for maximum value.
[In organized groups you use your ulti when the group needs it, not when you need it. Which means you are wasting sustain while waiting for your cue]

have good passives

Only like 4-5 of them are relevant for tanks.

can apply unique buffs (breath + stone fist).

Both of which are balanced to be used by DDs and/or not fun to use + tanks don't have the bar space for

magicka chain/pull

Prob indeed a slightly more comfortable to use skill than the alternate versions, but being able to pull is not unique to DKs. Not anymore.

AoE soft CC

Because no other class have CCs, it's not like Sorcerers have an entire tree dedicated to them.

skills with synergies

A total of two. One of which is a DD ulti, so you can't use, the other which bosses are immune to, so you can't use.
Let's ignore that Templars have like 3 unconditional synergies, truly DK is the king of synergy opportunities.

I'm not saying DKs are terrible tanks, but they aren't far ahead of the competition at all. People are just used to DKs being tanks AND DKs suck in any other role.

Im not even going to bother replying to someone who doesnt know the difference between a soft and a hard CC and thinks that DKs only have 4-5 tanking passives when in reality its 10 passives out of 12.

Roots are soft CC. Encase (Sorcerer - Dark Magic) is a root. So is Daedric Mines.
Unless you think that the only type of soft cc is snare???? Or just don't know that Encase is a root.

Which 10 passives?
Ardent Flame passives are all whatever, sure they occasionally might do something but they aren't things you actively care about. You aren't gonna run enough abilities to consistently proc them. So far 0/4.
Draconic Power -

• Burning Heart is meh, PvE healers already massively overheal everything even without it. And even if that wasn't the case, what skill are you running to proc it? You need to use Dragon Blood to proc this but it won't retroactively apply to the heal that you just used. Very context dependent so not something you consistently care about.
• Elder Dragon same, too much bar space reqirement for something that is too situational.
• Scaled Armor - only really useful in magic damage based content and makes it awkward to optimize armor resistances. Since most resistance sources give both physical and spell res, having a buff that only gives one type makes it so you either go over cap with spell resistance or stay well under the physical cap. Still, matters more than other passives.
• Iron Skin - one passive that truly matters. if you ask me the score (and I'm being very lenient) is 2/8 so far.

Earthen Heart

• Eternal Mountain - Who cares how long Igneous shield last if you only run it to spam it for Helping Hands.
• Battle Roar. Not much to say. +1
• Mountain's Blessing +1, but the Minor Brutality only matters in stamina groups.
• Helping Hands eh, it's at least some sustain. +1

So yeah, that 5/12, maybe 6-7/12. While all passives can have beneficial effects they are not all things you actively care about.
Which is true for every class btw, I'm not saying every passive should be immensely relevant for every role. Just don't accept the claim that DK somehw has godlike passives.

Btw 5k HP is barely noticable on a tank, especially in a trial with 2 healers.

When your HP is just enough to survive heavy attack in order to optimize your support output 5K can make a huge difference.

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

I run vet DLC HM dungeons without a healer and have 0 issues with HP and I use Balance. 1,5k Hp recovery + Major Mending with Echoing Vigor is enough to basically insta heal you back up to full HP even with the 50% healing debuff.

Can I get a video of you infinite sustaning with no healer vs HM triple Earthgore Amalgam?
Wanna learn them skillz.

xI_The_Owl_Ix

phantasmalD wrote: »

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

phantasmalD wrote: »

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

they have a very good stamina sustain skill which they can basically spam forever by using balance to regenerate magicka.

Oh boy, spend 10k hp and your healer's sanity for 990 stamina. What a truly OP, broken skill combo. Nothing like that weak, useless skill, Dark Deal, restoring 8k HP and 6k stamina for 2k magicka. Or that silly Bull Netch, restoring 4k stamina and purging 1 for no cost at all. Nah, Helping Hands is da boss.

[There's also the tiny, tiny issue of not having enough bar space to consistently run an Earthen Heart ability]

They also get sustain through ultimate use

And other classes just get pure, constant sustain without needing to insta use their ulti for maximum value.
[In organized groups you use your ulti when the group needs it, not when you need it. Which means you are wasting sustain while waiting for your cue]

have good passives

Only like 4-5 of them are relevant for tanks.

can apply unique buffs (breath + stone fist).

Both of which are balanced to be used by DDs and/or not fun to use + tanks don't have the bar space for

magicka chain/pull

Prob indeed a slightly more comfortable to use skill than the alternate versions, but being able to pull is not unique to DKs. Not anymore.

AoE soft CC

Because no other class have CCs, it's not like Sorcerers have an entire tree dedicated to them.

skills with synergies

A total of two. One of which is a DD ulti, so you can't use, the other which bosses are immune to, so you can't use.
Let's ignore that Templars have like 3 unconditional synergies, truly DK is the king of synergy opportunities.

I'm not saying DKs are terrible tanks, but they aren't far ahead of the competition at all. People are just used to DKs being tanks AND DKs suck in any other role.

Im not even going to bother replying to someone who doesnt know the difference between a soft and a hard CC and thinks that DKs only have 4-5 tanking passives when in reality its 10 passives out of 12.

Roots are soft CC. Encase (Sorcerer - Dark Magic) is a root. So is Daedric Mines.
Unless you think that the only type of soft cc is snare???? Or just don't know that Encase is a root.

Which 10 passives?
Ardent Flame passives are all whatever, sure they occasionally might do something but they aren't things you actively care about. You aren't gonna run enough abilities to consistently proc them. So far 0/4.
Draconic Power -

• Burning Heart is meh, PvE healers already massively overheal everything even without it. And even if that wasn't the case, what skill are you running to proc it? You need to use Dragon Blood to proc this but it won't retroactively apply to the heal that you just used. Very context dependent so not something you consistently care about.
• Elder Dragon same, too much bar space reqirement for something that is too situational.
• Scaled Armor - only really useful in magic damage based content and makes it awkward to optimize armor resistances. Since most resistance sources give both physical and spell res, having a buff that only gives one type makes it so you either go over cap with spell resistance or stay well under the physical cap. Still, matters more than other passives.
• Iron Skin - one passive that truly matters. if you ask me the score (and I'm being very lenient) is 2/8 so far.

Earthen Heart

• Eternal Mountain - Who cares how long Igneous shield last if you only run it to spam it for Helping Hands.
• Battle Roar. Not much to say. +1
• Mountain's Blessing +1, but the Minor Brutality only matters in stamina groups.
• Helping Hands eh, it's at least some sustain. +1

So yeah, that 5/12, maybe 6-7/12. While all passives can have beneficial effects they are not all things you actively care about.
Which is true for every class btw, I'm not saying every passive should be immensely relevant for every role. Just don't accept the claim that DK somehw has godlike passives.

Btw 5k HP is barely noticable on a tank, especially in a trial with 2 healers.

When your HP is just enough to survive heavy attack in order to optimize your support output 5K can make a huge difference.

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

I run vet DLC HM dungeons without a healer and have 0 issues with HP and I use Balance. 1,5k Hp recovery + Major Mending with Echoing Vigor is enough to basically insta heal you back up to full HP even with the 50% healing debuff.

Can I get a video of you infinite sustaning with no healer vs HM triple Earthgore Amalgam?
Wanna learn them skillz.

I legit stopped reading after "Burning Heart is meh, PvE healers already massively overheal everything even without it."

First you literally said "Oh boy, spend 10k hp and your healer's sanity for 990 stamina."
Now youre saying healers overheal anything anyway.

Its clear that you are going to move your goalpost regardless of my valid points and therefore Im just not going to respond anymore.


Oh btw, Im pretty sure Bloodroot Forge was a pledge this week and I totally did the HM on my DK tank without a healer, [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

phantasmalD

I legit stopped reading after "Burning Heart is meh, PvE healers already massively overheal everything even without it."

First you literally said "Oh boy, spend 10k hp and your healer's sanity for 990 stamina."
Now youre saying healers overheal anything anyway.

Its clear that you are going to move your goalpost regardless of my valid points and therefore Im just not going to respond anymore.

That was just a joke and not the main point of the sentence so you are taking it out of context, but sure, point taken.
[snip]

Oh btw, Im pretty sure Bloodroot Forge was a pledge this week and I totally did the HM on my DK tank without a healer, [snip]

[snip]

One last thing I need to address tho before you go:

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

I will say this: DKs (like the other non DLC classes) were clearly designed around a role (tanking) and that is evident.

And that was a decision they backtracked on years ago (2018, Summerset, patch 4.0.5):

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Player Abilities
Developer Comments – Ability Changes:
Spoiler
We’ve made numerous ability changes with this latest update – some have global implications, while others are specific tweaks and quality of life changes. Some of our major goals with these changes include:

• Improving unpopular abilities and morph choices: Most of the abilities tweaks are targeting underused skills or morphs that we’ve found few players utilize.
• Increasing the viability of all classes to perform the tank and healer roles: Some class skills have received significant updates to help improve their ability to tank and heal dungeon and Trial content.
• Reducing the effectiveness of long duration snares: A few snares have had their strength reduced to better balance their high uptime on enemy targets.
• DPS Balancing: Some abilities and item sets have had their damage values and procs adjusted to improve the damage disparity between Magicka and Stamina builds. Other changes were focused on creating better parity between Melee and Ranged builds.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

xI_The_Owl_Ix

phantasmalD wrote: »

I legit stopped reading after "Burning Heart is meh, PvE healers already massively overheal everything even without it."

First you literally said "Oh boy, spend 10k hp and your healer's sanity for 990 stamina."
Now youre saying healers overheal anything anyway.

Its clear that you are going to move your goalpost regardless of my valid points and therefore Im just not going to respond anymore.

That was just a joke and not the main point of the sentence so you are taking it out of context, but sure, point taken.
[snip]

Oh btw, Im pretty sure Bloodroot Forge was a pledge this week and I totally did the HM on my DK tank without a healer, [snip]

[snip]

One last thing I need to address tho before you go:

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

I will say this: DKs (like the other non DLC classes) were clearly designed around a role (tanking) and that is evident.

And that was a decision they backtracked on years ago (2018, Summerset, patch 4.0.5):

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Player Abilities
Developer Comments – Ability Changes:
Spoiler
We’ve made numerous ability changes with this latest update – some have global implications, while others are specific tweaks and quality of life changes. Some of our major goals with these changes include:

• Improving unpopular abilities and morph choices: Most of the abilities tweaks are targeting underused skills or morphs that we’ve found few players utilize.
• Increasing the viability of all classes to perform the tank and healer roles: Some class skills have received significant updates to help improve their ability to tank and heal dungeon and Trial content.
• Reducing the effectiveness of long duration snares: A few snares have had their strength reduced to better balance their high uptime on enemy targets.
• DPS Balancing: Some abilities and item sets have had their damage values and procs adjusted to improve the damage disparity between Magicka and Stamina builds. Other changes were focused on creating better parity between Melee and Ranged builds.

Viability =/= Designed around that role.
Look at it like this: DKs can heal through content. Is it ideal? No. Do they bring any unique buffs/debuffs? No. But can they heal through content? Absolutely.
This also goes for NB Tanks or Healers. Templar Tanks. Sorc Tanks.DK DDs. Etc. You get my point.

Just being able to clear content doesnt make the class/role competitive. And I doubt ZoS will change that, dont get me wrong I hope they do but knowing ZoS they most likely wont. Thats also why Ive been campaigning for class change token. I want to play my main (nightblade) and tank but its a terrible experience and I know that ZoS doesnt care enough to fix the shortcomings of the class and of other classes as well.

NBs are supposed to be DDs.
DKs are supposed to be Tanks.
Templars are supposed to be Healers.
Sorcs are supposed to be DDs.

Thats how ZoS thinks and I dont think we will see them changing anytime soon. I HOPE they do, but lets be real..this isnt the Crown Store.

Urzigurumash

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

Viability =/= Designed around that role.
Look at it like this: DKs can heal through content. Is it ideal? No. Do they bring any unique buffs/debuffs? No. But can they heal through content? Absolutely.
This also goes for NB Tanks or Healers. Templar Tanks. Sorc Tanks.DK DDs. Etc. You get my point.

Just being able to clear content doesnt make the class/role competitive. And I doubt ZoS will change that, dont get me wrong I hope they do but knowing ZoS they most likely wont. Thats also why Ive been campaigning for class change token. I want to play my main (nightblade) and tank but its a terrible experience and I know that ZoS doesnt care enough to fix the shortcomings of the class and of other classes as well.

NBs are supposed to be DDs.
DKs are supposed to be Tanks.
Templars are supposed to be Healers.
Sorcs are supposed to be DDs.

Thats how ZoS thinks and I dont think we will see them changing anytime soon. I HOPE they do, but lets be real..this isnt the Crown Store.

Chiming in with my PvP ScrubDK perspective to say that I very much agree with this.

This is why I believe some of the shortcomings we are alleged to have in PvP - outside of the lack of high-damage AoE delayed burst - could perhaps be addressed through buffing our defensive passives, or even increasing the effectiveness of some of our active tanking skills. It's not a direct buff to non-Tank roles, but it could work out to be an indirect buff, while rejuvenating our core role.

For me, the DK "engine" works great (although it appears to be losing some gas for me next patch, especially when using Spell Symmetry) and when I play solo or small scale in the way I like to play, I have no considerable trouble with sustain or mobility, because I fundamentally play it like a tank, with whatever expendable budget I have invested into whatever I need for whatever I want to do besides "tank". Makes me a scrub sure, but it works for me.

Athan1

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

Just being able to clear content doesnt make the class/role competitive.

Not everything needs to be competitive, just viable. You can't have six bis healer classes, one will always stand out anyway.

Starlight_Whisper

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

phantasmalD wrote: »

I legit stopped reading after "Burning Heart is meh, PvE healers already massively overheal everything even without it."

First you literally said "Oh boy, spend 10k hp and your healer's sanity for 990 stamina."
Now youre saying healers overheal anything anyway.

Its clear that you are going to move your goalpost regardless of my valid points and therefore Im just not going to respond anymore.

That was just a joke and not the main point of the sentence so you are taking it out of context, but sure, point taken.
Glad you found your quick 'n easy escape out of this pointless conversation tho, good for you, see ya.

Oh btw, Im pretty sure Bloodroot Forge was a pledge this week and I totally did the HM on my DK tank without a healer, maybe you just need to learn to play. You're welcome!

Possible, but it's not like you are willing to teach.
Show me that god tanking where you solo tank, heal and also provide maximum support with 100% uptime on Stagger and Engulfing.

One last thing I need to address tho before you go:

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

I will say this: DKs (like the other non DLC classes) were clearly designed around a role (tanking) and that is evident.

And that was a decision they backtracked on years ago (2018, Summerset, patch 4.0.5):

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Player Abilities
Developer Comments – Ability Changes:
Spoiler
We’ve made numerous ability changes with this latest update – some have global implications, while others are specific tweaks and quality of life changes. Some of our major goals with these changes include:

• Improving unpopular abilities and morph choices: Most of the abilities tweaks are targeting underused skills or morphs that we’ve found few players utilize.
• Increasing the viability of all classes to perform the tank and healer roles: Some class skills have received significant updates to help improve their ability to tank and heal dungeon and Trial content.
• Reducing the effectiveness of long duration snares: A few snares have had their strength reduced to better balance their high uptime on enemy targets.
• DPS Balancing: Some abilities and item sets have had their damage values and procs adjusted to improve the damage disparity between Magicka and Stamina builds. Other changes were focused on creating better parity between Melee and Ranged builds.

Viability =/= Designed around that role.
Look at it like this: DKs can heal through content. Is it ideal? No. Do they bring any unique buffs/debuffs? No. But can they heal through content? Absolutely.
This also goes for NB Tanks or Healers. Templar Tanks. Sorc Tanks.DK DDs. Etc. You get my point.

Just being able to clear content doesnt make the class/role competitive. And I doubt ZoS will change that, dont get me wrong I hope they do but knowing ZoS they most likely wont. Thats also why Ive been campaigning for class change token. I want to play my main (nightblade) and tank but its a terrible experience and I know that ZoS doesnt care enough to fix the shortcomings of the class and of other classes as well.

NBs are supposed to be DDs.
DKs are supposed to be Tanks.
Templars are supposed to be Healers.
Sorcs are supposed to be DDs.

Thats how ZoS thinks and I dont think we will see them changing anytime soon. I HOPE they do, but lets be real..this isnt the Crown Store.

The skill advisor exists so each class is to meant to do each role. In fact newer classes designer that way because most people want this. Going backwards, nightblade literally has healing skill line and tank one so you lost this one. Only ones screwed are Sorc, Dk, and Templar.

xI_The_Owl_Ix

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

phantasmalD wrote: »

I legit stopped reading after "Burning Heart is meh, PvE healers already massively overheal everything even without it."

First you literally said "Oh boy, spend 10k hp and your healer's sanity for 990 stamina."
Now youre saying healers overheal anything anyway.

Its clear that you are going to move your goalpost regardless of my valid points and therefore Im just not going to respond anymore.

That was just a joke and not the main point of the sentence so you are taking it out of context, but sure, point taken.
[snip]

Oh btw, Im pretty sure Bloodroot Forge was a pledge this week and I totally did the HM on my DK tank without a healer, [snip]

[snip]

One last thing I need to address tho before you go:

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

I will say this: DKs (like the other non DLC classes) were clearly designed around a role (tanking) and that is evident.

And that was a decision they backtracked on years ago (2018, Summerset, patch 4.0.5):

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Player Abilities
Developer Comments – Ability Changes:
Spoiler
We’ve made numerous ability changes with this latest update – some have global implications, while others are specific tweaks and quality of life changes. Some of our major goals with these changes include:

• Improving unpopular abilities and morph choices: Most of the abilities tweaks are targeting underused skills or morphs that we’ve found few players utilize.
• Increasing the viability of all classes to perform the tank and healer roles: Some class skills have received significant updates to help improve their ability to tank and heal dungeon and Trial content.
• Reducing the effectiveness of long duration snares: A few snares have had their strength reduced to better balance their high uptime on enemy targets.
• DPS Balancing: Some abilities and item sets have had their damage values and procs adjusted to improve the damage disparity between Magicka and Stamina builds. Other changes were focused on creating better parity between Melee and Ranged builds.

Viability =/= Designed around that role.
Look at it like this: DKs can heal through content. Is it ideal? No. Do they bring any unique buffs/debuffs? No. But can they heal through content? Absolutely.
This also goes for NB Tanks or Healers. Templar Tanks. Sorc Tanks.DK DDs. Etc. You get my point.

Just being able to clear content doesnt make the class/role competitive. And I doubt ZoS will change that, dont get me wrong I hope they do but knowing ZoS they most likely wont. Thats also why Ive been campaigning for class change token. I want to play my main (nightblade) and tank but its a terrible experience and I know that ZoS doesnt care enough to fix the shortcomings of the class and of other classes as well.

NBs are supposed to be DDs.
DKs are supposed to be Tanks.
Templars are supposed to be Healers.
Sorcs are supposed to be DDs.

Thats how ZoS thinks and I dont think we will see them changing anytime soon. I HOPE they do, but lets be real..this isnt the Crown Store.

The skill advisor exists so each class is to meant to do each role. In fact newer classes designer that way because most people want this. Going backwards, nightblade literally has healing skill line and tank one so you lost this one. Only ones screwed are Sorc, Dk, and Templar.

Yea nah... NB doesnt have healing or tanking skill lines.

The "tanking skill line" is: an offensive spammable, invisbility/HoT selfheal, AoE dmg/heal, AoE hardCC, offensive single target and AoE DoT/single target DoT + teleport.

The "healing skill line" is: a spammable which heals yourself/heals yourself and allies for a % of dmg done, a burst heal for allies, a single target DoT, sustain + self-heal skill and an AoE DMG spammable.

I didnt "lose anything" because Im right. I know that you guys want to twist this into something that it isnt, so just stop.

Athan1 wrote: »

xI_The_Owl_Ix wrote: »

Just being able to clear content doesnt make the class/role competitive.

Not everything needs to be competitive, just viable. You can't have six bis healer classes, one will always stand out anyway.

And they are viable, you can hit high dmg numbers on a DK DD (100k DPS), and can also clear content with a DK healer. Thats literally what viable means.