Why PVP balance is only getting worse.....

Sangwyne · April 2021

FrankonPC wrote: »

2. Pre buffed sets were nerfed because of pve

Vizirith wrote: »

I guess we have to have this conversation yet again.
1. pre buff sets were 100x more common in pve than pvp. Just reread that other thread if you keep fogetting.

I guess we do.

Clever Alchemist: This item set’s proc now requires that you are in combat for it to function.
Developer Comments:
This solves the issue where some players would activate their potion with this item set, then completely switch their gear to a new item set while retaining the bonus. We want this item set to be used more strategically in the middle of combat, rather than it only being used to one-shot players from stealth.

The Devs have known about pre-buff sets being abused by gankers and bombers in PvP for years now. It's nothing new. But in all that time, I can't find a single Developer Comment, or anything in fact, to support the idea that pre-buffing was a PvP-exclusive phenomenon. Snipe, Solar Flare, Senche's Bite and other pre-buff sets were all nerfed in the exact same patch due to their "alpha-strike potential", and the Dev comment explicitly stated the purpose was to ensure burst damage was toned down, but overall DPS in a rotation brought up. Please tell me which aspects of the game value average DPS and burst damage more. Or find the Developer comment stating that pre-buff sets were being abused in PvE (spoiler, there isn't one).

Senche's Bite:
This set now procs whenever you dodge an attack, rather than when you activate Roll Dodge.
Increased the duration to 10 seconds, up from 8 seconds.
Fixed an issue where this set's tooltip did not state it also affected your Critical Healing done. This change was done to help decrease the amount of alpha strike potential it has before combat has begun.

Snipe:
Reduced the cast time of these abilities to 0.8 seconds, down from 1 second.
This ability and its morphs now have a much faster, smoother animation to support their new cast time.
Reduced the damage done by approximately 21%.
Reduced the base cost to 2700, down from 3240.
Increased the travel speed slightly to help reduce the ability to fire off multiple projectiles before the original projectile landed.
Focused Aim (morph): This morph now ranks up in cost reduction, rather than 1.1% damage per rank. The final cost is now 2430.
Developer Comment:
Similar to the Solar Flare changes this update and Crystal Shards a few updates ago, we wanted to make these abilities less bursty in nature while helping their fluid usage in rapid succession, making them less potent at combining into deadly alpha strike attacks and more potent while used in a rotation.

Solar Flare:
Reduced the cast time of this ability and the Dark Flare morph to 0.8 seconds, down from 1 second.
Reduced the damage done by approximately 21%.
Reduced the cost of all versions of this ability to 2700, down from 2970.
Developer Comment:
Similar to other cast time abilities, we’ve taken the approach for a quicker cast time to help make this ability easier to weave within the 1 second global cooldown. This should also help reduce burst, potentially when combined with other high hitting attacks, but help the DPS go up by making it smoother to use and easier to sustain.

They were nerfed because of PvP, please stop trying to use PvE as a scapegoat.

fred4 · April 2021

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

All it does is it forces competitive groups to buy your next chapter or lose.

You know you lost your argument with ZOS right there, don't you? You said the quiet part out loud. With companions being the major new feature of Blackwood, clearly designed for role-players, there wouldn't be much of a reason to buy the chapter for endgame players. After a casual look I thought there was exactly none, until the power of the new mythics and some of the new item sets dawned on me. For example, depending on exactly how that Kilt works during in and out of combat transitions, I can see nightblade gankers gaining up to 40% of previously unobtainable crit damage when combining it with the Major Force trial set. Some of these things are going to cancel each other out, but I doubt either ZOS or the playerbase has a good handle on this yet. I'd say the playerbase has more of one, but a vigorous discussion in these forums (without anything necessarily happening afterwards) is also just a win for ZOS.

fred4 · April 2021

gurgamel wrote: »

A dot should do damage over time and not burst, exampel dots deal damage right when aplied

I suspect skills being overloaded like that - take DK Noxious Breath for example - may have to do with the limited bar space in this game compared to other games.

fred4 · April 2021

Joy_Division wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Because it is not a priority!

That's the crazy part though, they did this massive proc set rebalance for the sake of PvP, so it clearly has some priority to them. But once again, they managed to tick off both PvEers and PvPers, as the changes show a tragic lack of metagame awareness and poor oversight (e.g. Crimson damage still scaling with HP and also being buffed to the sky). Unless something drastic happens this PTS cycle, except this to be a mess for months. ESO+ canceled.

The problem is while ZOS wants to do things, they do not invest the resources to ensure the job gets done correctly. If they had a developer that was fully dedicated to PvP and understood how Cyrodiil actually plays out night to night, what was strong, why the strongest build seem so oppressive, etc., that PvP developer would have instantly been able to point out the problems in the very first board meeting before it even reached the PTS.

This, so much this! They even hired a streamer, though. While he was perhaps better known for PvE, he was pretty well rounded as far as I remember.

quickblade418 · April 2021

Procs sets for stamina will just scale too high , such a bad design to make it scale with spell/wep dmg, its going to be worse than what it is right now, same for health scaling , promote tanks doing big procs dmg with sets like crimson . like wtf i thought after the viper meta when they first released duels then BGs, you would think they learnt their lesson , but now few years have passed seems like they all forget about it and procs are dominant again

fred4 · April 2021

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Because it is not a priority!

That's the crazy part though, they did this massive proc set rebalance for the sake of PvP.

You're talking about the proc set scaling, not the rebalance last autumn, right? I actually believe they did this both for PvE and PvP. The fact that procs will be able to scale higher than before, something that not a single PvPer that I know asked for, points to PvE. I believe that Relequen is just about the only proc currently relevant in competitive PvE (correct?) and they're trying to change that.

The problem I see with competitive PvE is that the meta is very systematically worked out by the top players and, once that's done, the masses will not be interested in anything but the top sets (as you can see from TTC prices), even when those top sets are only marginally better than some others. These are always just going to be a handful of specific sets, IMO, whether they be proc sets or crit sets or what have you. If your objective is to encourage the use of a wider range of sets in competitive trials, balancing for that is almost futile when the playerbase is so sensitive to the most minute imbalances. This is not my area of expertise, though.

In PvP, at least from my standpoint as a solo / duo player, the proc set scaling will be a disaster. It favors coordinated groups who can push weapon and spell damage via group buffs from Powerful Assault, Spell Power Cure, Minor Brutality / Sorcery, and so on. Numbers already trump everything in PvP. Reinforcing that feels so unnecessary.

Vizirith · April 2021

Sangwyne wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

2. Pre buffed sets were nerfed because of pve

Vizirith wrote: »

I guess we have to have this conversation yet again.
1. pre buff sets were 100x more common in pve than pvp. Just reread that other thread if you keep fogetting.

I guess we do.

Clever Alchemist: This item set’s proc now requires that you are in combat for it to function.
Developer Comments:
This solves the issue where some players would activate their potion with this item set, then completely switch their gear to a new item set while retaining the bonus. We want this item set to be used more strategically in the middle of combat, rather than it only being used to one-shot players from stealth.

The Devs have known about pre-buff sets being abused by gankers and bombers in PvP for years now. It's nothing new. But in all that time, I can't find a single Developer Comment, or anything in fact, to support the idea that pre-buffing was a PvP-exclusive phenomenon. Snipe, Solar Flare, Senche's Bite and other pre-buff sets were all nerfed in the exact same patch due to their "alpha-strike potential", and the Dev comment explicitly stated the purpose was to ensure burst damage was toned down, but overall DPS in a rotation brought up. Please tell me which aspects of the game value average DPS and burst damage more. Or find the Developer comment stating that pre-buff sets were being abused in PvE (spoiler, there isn't one).

Senche's Bite:
This set now procs whenever you dodge an attack, rather than when you activate Roll Dodge.
Increased the duration to 10 seconds, up from 8 seconds.
Fixed an issue where this set's tooltip did not state it also affected your Critical Healing done. This change was done to help decrease the amount of alpha strike potential it has before combat has begun.

Snipe:
Reduced the cast time of these abilities to 0.8 seconds, down from 1 second.
This ability and its morphs now have a much faster, smoother animation to support their new cast time.
Reduced the damage done by approximately 21%.
Reduced the base cost to 2700, down from 3240.
Increased the travel speed slightly to help reduce the ability to fire off multiple projectiles before the original projectile landed.
Focused Aim (morph): This morph now ranks up in cost reduction, rather than 1.1% damage per rank. The final cost is now 2430.
Developer Comment:
Similar to the Solar Flare changes this update and Crystal Shards a few updates ago, we wanted to make these abilities less bursty in nature while helping their fluid usage in rapid succession, making them less potent at combining into deadly alpha strike attacks and more potent while used in a rotation.

Solar Flare:
Reduced the cast time of this ability and the Dark Flare morph to 0.8 seconds, down from 1 second.
Reduced the damage done by approximately 21%.
Reduced the cost of all versions of this ability to 2700, down from 2970.
Developer Comment:
Similar to other cast time abilities, we’ve taken the approach for a quicker cast time to help make this ability easier to weave within the 1 second global cooldown. This should also help reduce burst, potentially when combined with other high hitting attacks, but help the DPS go up by making it smoother to use and easier to sustain.

They were nerfed because of PvP, please stop trying to use PvE as a scapegoat.

My response was for your last post. This literally refutes none of what I said. I don't disagree that those changes from THIS patch are because of PVP. And to keep going to the 2017 patch notes to explain balance changes 4 years later is a bit misleading. As I mentioned in the other thread people swapping sets isn't very common at all. Clever's was particularly powerful as it had a 15 sec duration at the time, and allowed plenty of time to swap.

The other things were nerfed because of PVE, please stop trying to use PVP as a scapegoat.

Sangwyne · April 2021

Vizirith wrote: »

My response was for your last post. This literally refutes none of what I said. I don't disagree that those changes from THIS patch are because of PVP. And to keep going to the 2017 patch notes to explain balance changes 4 years later is a bit misleading.

Vizirith wrote: »

I guess we have to have this conversation yet again.
1. pre buff sets were 100x more common in pve than pvp. Just reread that other thread if you keep fogetting.

You brought up pre-buff sets and claimed they were "100x more common in pve", I addressed them. The point is, pre-buff sets have been being taken advantage of by PvP players for literally years now. Gankers, Bombers, and other entire categories of names exist for players whose entire job it is to pre-buff as much as possible and blow someone up.

Vizirith wrote: »

The other things were nerfed because of PVE, please stop trying to use PVP as a scapegoat.

Everyone knows Snipe was exclusively used in PvP because it caused desync and allowed players to front load damage. Senche's was exclusively used in PvP by players that had enough crit chance or could guarantee a crit (like NB) to land the fattest possible chunk of damage they possibly could on their first attack against unsuspecting players and ensure they didn't need to land a second one. Seventh Legion, Balorghs, Stygian, these were nonexistent in 99% of PvE but an issue for newer players being blown right up in PvP.

ZOS makes balance decisions according to what players complain about. No one is complaining about the very few and far between, extremely well-coordinated trial score pushers that managed to squeeze out 3 extra DPS from a couple pre-buff sets, because 99% of players will never experience that. They care about hopping into PvP for the first time just to be blown up in 0.3 seconds because someone is abusing a mechanic to pre-buff themselves. It's tiring to have to constantly refute this claim that PvP, the thing the entire game is balanced around, is not what they balance stuff around. PvE is inherently not balanced, and it doesn't matter; stuff like Necro being completely better in every regard than other classes, seeing 8 Necros in trials, and Mag being better than Stamina for entire patches goes unheeded until it has an effect in PvP.

It's like trying to rewrite history. I found several Developer comments, literally Word of God, stating that pre-buff sets like Senche's and Clever, along with skills like Snipe and Solar Flare, were causing too much burst damage, so they buffed Snipe and Solar Flare and Senche's for PvE and nerfed them for PvP. Please show me the "100x more common" Developer comments stating pre-buff sets were being abused in PvE. I can't find any.

Vizirith · April 2021

Sangwyne wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

My response was for your last post. This literally refutes none of what I said. I don't disagree that those changes from THIS patch are because of PVP. And to keep going to the 2017 patch notes to explain balance changes 4 years later is a bit misleading.

Vizirith wrote: »

I guess we have to have this conversation yet again.
1. pre buff sets were 100x more common in pve than pvp. Just reread that other thread if you keep fogetting.

You brought up pre-buff sets and claimed they were "100x more common in pve", I addressed them. The point is, pre-buff sets have been being taken advantage of by PvP players for literally years now. Gankers, Bombers, and other entire categories of names exist for players whose entire job it is to pre-buff as much as possible and blow someone up.

Vizirith wrote: »

The other things were nerfed because of PVE, please stop trying to use PVP as a scapegoat.

Everyone knows Snipe was exclusively used in PvP because it caused desync and allowed players to front load damage. Senche's was exclusively used in PvP by players that had enough crit chance or could guarantee a crit (like NB) to land the fattest possible chunk of damage they possibly could on their first attack against unsuspecting players and ensure they didn't need to land a second one. Seventh Legion, Balorghs, Stygian, these were nonexistent in 99% of PvE but an issue for newer players being blown right up in PvP.

Vizirith wrote: »

I don't disagree that those changes from THIS patch are because of PVP. And to keep going to the 2017 patch notes to explain balance changes 4 years later is a bit misleading.

Balorgh's was never used to pre-buff, these were 100% nonexistant in pvp. Pre-buffing is much easier to do in pve than pvp, period. That was never up for debate. Anyone who has ever done both can tell you that. Nb's can only use seventh in conjunction with mirage which no stamblade ganker would ever use, and it's useless for a magblade. Sure, stygian could be used to pre-buff magblade bombers, or it could be used by every class in pve.

Sangwyne wrote: »

ZOS makes balance decisions according to what players complain about. No one is complaining about the very few and far between, extremely well-coordinated trial score pushers that managed to squeeze out 3 extra DPS from a couple pre-buff sets, because 99% of players will never experience that. They care about hopping into PvP for the first time just to be blown up in 0.3 seconds because someone is abusing a mechanic to pre-buff themselves. It's tiring to have to constantly refute this claim that PvP, the thing the entire game is balanced around, is not what they balance stuff around. PvE is inherently not balanced, and it doesn't matter; stuff like Necro being completely better in every regard than other classes, seeing 8 Necros in trials, and Mag being better than Stamina for entire patches goes unheeded until it has an effect in PvP.

It's like trying to rewrite history. I found several Developer comments, literally Word of God, stating that pre-buff sets like Senche's and Clever, along with skills like Snipe and Solar Flare, were causing too much burst damage, so they buffed Snipe and Solar Flare and Senche's for PvE and nerfed them for PvP. Please show me the "100x more common" Developer comments stating pre-buff sets were being abused in PvE. I can't find any.

... Did you even read my 4 sentence post to which you responded to?

Just reread that thread where you make the same arguments blindly. And the statement that pvp is all this game is based around is absolutely hilarious. You forget to mention all the pve changes. So sure if all you look for is the pvp caused changes and ignore the pve caused changes, you will only see... wait for it... the pvp caused changes.

Kordai · April 2021

Sangwyne wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

My response was for your last post. This literally refutes none of what I said. I don't disagree that those changes from THIS patch are because of PVP. And to keep going to the 2017 patch notes to explain balance changes 4 years later is a bit misleading.

Vizirith wrote: »

I guess we have to have this conversation yet again.
1. pre buff sets were 100x more common in pve than pvp. Just reread that other thread if you keep fogetting.

You brought up pre-buff sets and claimed they were "100x more common in pve", I addressed them. The point is, pre-buff sets have been being taken advantage of by PvP players for literally years now. Gankers, Bombers, and other entire categories of names exist for players whose entire job it is to pre-buff as much as possible and blow someone up.

Vizirith wrote: »

The other things were nerfed because of PVE, please stop trying to use PVP as a scapegoat.

Everyone knows Snipe was exclusively used in PvP because it caused desync and allowed players to front load damage. Senche's was exclusively used in PvP by players that had enough crit chance or could guarantee a crit (like NB) to land the fattest possible chunk of damage they possibly could on their first attack against unsuspecting players and ensure they didn't need to land a second one. Seventh Legion, Balorghs, Stygian, these were nonexistent in 99% of PvE but an issue for newer players being blown right up in PvP.

ZOS makes balance decisions according to what players complain about. No one is complaining about the very few and far between, extremely well-coordinated trial score pushers that managed to squeeze out 3 extra DPS from a couple pre-buff sets, because 99% of players will never experience that. They care about hopping into PvP for the first time just to be blown up in 0.3 seconds because someone is abusing a mechanic to pre-buff themselves. It's tiring to have to constantly refute this claim that PvP, the thing the entire game is balanced around, is not what they balance stuff around. PvE is inherently not balanced, and it doesn't matter; stuff like Necro being completely better in every regard than other classes, seeing 8 Necros in trials, and Mag being better than Stamina for entire patches goes unheeded until it has an effect in PvP.

It's like trying to rewrite history. I found several Developer comments, literally Word of God, stating that pre-buff sets like Senche's and Clever, along with skills like Snipe and Solar Flare, were causing too much burst damage, so they buffed Snipe and Solar Flare and Senche's for PvE and nerfed them for PvP. Please show me the "100x more common" Developer comments stating pre-buff sets were being abused in PvE. I can't find any.

Finally someone acknowledges the op ness of stam dragonknight gankers. Although I'm not quit sure how the whole stuck in combat thing would allow you to swap gear sets around? Oh are you arguing that that should be allowed? I have to admit it would be pretty hilarious to basically be swapping sets around every second. Although that would make hybrids possible. You'd be wearing full stam gear for dswing but then swap to full mag gear for like crystal frags. Okay actually I think this would be pretty awesome for like some weeklong event. They should do some week long gimicks. Like one where a volundrung can spawn in every zone. So somebody can take it to like a trial and go ham. Maybe make it not reveal itself and people have to actual find it. Like 1 per zone allowing multiple to get it. Okay now I'm thinking a trial group where all dds have hammer.

Tiphis · April 2021

@Sangwyne and @Vizirith No, just no. We're not doing this whole thing all over in yet another thread on the pts. Unfortunately zos removed my comment last time so I can't even copy paste it. You guys aren't even arguing about the actual changes simply why they came about. Just go to marriage counseling again because clearly you guys didn't learn last time.

Joy_Division · April 2021

.

Sangwyne · April 2021

Vizirith wrote: »

Balorgh's was never used to pre-buff, these were 100% nonexistant in pvp.

https://alcasthq.com/eso-magicka-nightblade-build-pvp-bomb/
There were dozens of Alcast PvP guides using Balorgh and Stygian before the Cyrodiil changes made procs not work. You can still find many like this one, and Alcast is probably the most well-known figure in the ESO community so people read his guides. NB bombers literally use Balorgh. It's right there. And Stygian was nerfed right next to Balorgh in the patch notes, because it made one-shotting people too easy. Both of those were extensively used in PvP; although Balorgh isn't really a pre-buff set, Stygian most certainly is.

Vizirith wrote: »

Pre-buffing is much easier to do in pve than pvp, period. That was never up for debate. Anyone who has ever done both can tell you that. Nb's can only use seventh in conjunction with mirage which no stamblade ganker would ever use, and it's useless for a magblade. Sure, stygian could be used to pre-buff magblade bombers, or it could be used by every class in pve.

Just reread that thread where you make the same arguments blindly.

Alright, you never refuted my point. I quoted multiple Developer comments, from 2017 all the way until now, directly stating that pre-buff sets were being used exclusively to one-shot players from stealth in PvP. You claimed "pre buff sets were 100x more common in pve than pvp" but have not cited a single Developer comment to prove your point. It should be easy. Please let me know if you find one, and I will happily change my tune in a heartbeat. Until then, there is zero proof, just claims.

I fully acknowledge that some pre-buffing sets may have been nerfed because of PvE, but to my knowledge, none of them were useful for PvP, they were changed exclusively with PvE in mind. On the other hand, many changes, nerfs, and penalties to PvE have been applied over the years as a result of PvP, the most recent of which would be the penalties to armor.

I would very much like for ZOS to implement changes to PvP exclusively through PvP rather than have it affect us. We just want to be left alone to roleplay, quest and chill.

ksbrugh · April 2021

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

PvP complains, Light/Heavy armor get hit with penalties. Medium armor survives unscathed.
PvP complains, pre-buff sets nuked because they were being used to one-shot from stealth.
PvP complains, all but 19 sets removed from Cyrodiil for several months.
PvP complains, now procs do even more damage and scale off of offensive stats.
PvP complains, health regen of all things is nerfed despite being a meme stat in PvE.

Now Medium armor is the only one without penalties, Stamina is even more meta than before, and scales healing from procs in addition to damage, healing, and shielding from skills, stealth, mobility from rolling and sprinting, and mitigation from rolling, blocking, and breaking free. Stamina builds now also scale damage from procs far harder than Magicka builds due to extra free weapon damage, and deal increased damage against Light armor for some reason despite Light armor already having the least armor and taking the most damage in the game. All that complaining only reinforced the absolute most dominant builds in PvP and slapped everyone else with random penalties they never asked for. Including PvE.

ZOS need to stop catering so closely to the whims of PvP. It's like holding a poll on taxpayers to see how much tax they want to pay. Spoiler alert, they aren't going to vote for the measure that's best for the nation, they're going to vote for whatever suits them the best without offering a solution on how to fix the overall issues.

1) Medium armor has not survived unscathed, medium armor is weaker to heavy armor than light armor is. Heavy > Medium > Light > Heavy if you followed the logic of the nerfs.

2) Pre-buff sets are not skill based, they're crutches. They should have never been made to begin with, there is a reason they nerfed buffs from being 2 minutes long to only 20 seconds long years ago, because pre-buffing isn't skill based.

3) They are not removed from Cyrodiil, they are disabled; it's any set that requires a server side calculation when players just wanted free damage sets disabled in PvP.

4) The desired outcome was Malacath does not buff free damage sets, only a few advocated for scaling; which was in itself a terrible concept and idea.

5) I'm not sure what this has to do with anything as health regen builds were barely ever used in the course of PvE tanking, so it shouldn't affect much to begin with.

True, but Heavy kills Medium, Medium kill Light, and Light kills Heavy. They're trying to maintain an "RPS" aspect to the game balance. Stamina is strong because people love making suggestions to nerfing passives that actively kill light armor builds and do not exactly show that they understand simple game mechanics, they scream "NERFF LOLOLL PTW CLASS" and cannot even begin to understand the disadvantages of each class, which renders their suggestions invalid.

Damage scaling is a bad idea and the availability and imbalance of Physical vs Magical damage in the game are issues that can be addressed separately. Physical vs Magical damage in itself can be addressed separate from all the other issues, a simple fix would be to normalize the calculations so they only need one algorithm.

But putting the blame on PvPers who have to fight to get any content while PvErs will always have their hands held and content always produced to them while being passive aggressive toxic snobs may be a huge reason PvPers act like they do in the first place.

If the game was properly balanced from the start there would be no problems.

Please explain to me how heavy kills medium.
If so heavy kills medium and light. Heavy armor also uses Marshall damage which does more damage to light armor.
Whether you want to admit it or not light armor is by far the weakest armor in the game and it should be BUT it does not need extra damage taken from two classes above it that are stronger more well protected and 9 times out of 10 better healed.
If light armor needed more damage done to it then they should have changed the penalty to 1% more damage to Shields not the armor itself.

Vizirith · April 2021

Sangwyne wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

Balorgh's was never used to pre-buff, these were 100% nonexistant in pvp.

https://alcasthq.com/eso-magicka-nightblade-build-pvp-bomb/
There were dozens of Alcast PvP guides using Balorgh and Stygian before the Cyrodiil changes made procs not work. You can still find many like this one, and Alcast is probably the most well-known figure in the ESO community so people read his guides. NB bombers literally use Balorgh. It's right there. And Stygian was nerfed right next to Balorgh in the patch notes, because it made one-shotting people too easy. Both of those were extensively used in PvP; although Balorgh isn't really a pre-buff set, Stygian most certainly is.

Vizirith wrote: »

Pre-buffing is much easier to do in pve than pvp, period. That was never up for debate. Anyone who has ever done both can tell you that. Nb's can only use seventh in conjunction with mirage which no stamblade ganker would ever use, and it's useless for a magblade. Sure, stygian could be used to pre-buff magblade bombers, or it could be used by every class in pve.

Just reread that thread where you make the same arguments blindly.

Alright, you never refuted my point. I quoted multiple Developer comments, from 2017 all the way until now, directly stating that pre-buff sets were being used exclusively to one-shot players from stealth in PvP. You claimed "pre buff sets were 100x more common in pve than pvp" but have not cited a single Developer comment to prove your point. It should be easy. Please let me know if you find one, and I will happily change my tune in a heartbeat. Until then, there is zero proof, just claims.

I fully acknowledge that some pre-buffing sets may have been nerfed because of PvE, but to my knowledge, none of them were useful for PvP, they were changed exclusively with PvE in mind. On the other hand, many changes, nerfs, and penalties to PvE have been applied over the years as a result of PvP, the most recent of which would be the penalties to armor.

I would very much like for ZOS to implement changes to PvP exclusively through PvP rather than have it affect us. We just want to be left alone to roleplay, quest and chill.

Again you said balorgh was a pre-buff set. I rebuffed that. Nobody uses balorgh's as a pre buff set.

However I do 100% agree with you that alot more stuff needs to be baked into battle spirit where it only affects pvp. It can even be used to buff sets in pvp instead of pve.

I do think the armor set changes had many reasons, of which some were definitely from pvp. However anything to get away from the boring 5/1/1, all magdps wears light, stamdps med, tanks heavy meta for all these years is an improvement. Some of the nerfs to heavy also made tanks and healers a bit more relevant.

SgtNuttzmeg · April 2021

Sangwyne wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

Balorgh's was never used to pre-buff, these were 100% nonexistant in pvp.

https://alcasthq.com/eso-magicka-nightblade-build-pvp-bomb/
There were dozens of Alcast PvP guides using Balorgh and Stygian before the Cyrodiil changes made procs not work. You can still find many like this one, and Alcast is probably the most well-known figure in the ESO community so people read his guides. NB bombers literally use Balorgh. It's right there. And Stygian was nerfed right next to Balorgh in the patch notes, because it made one-shotting people too easy. Both of those were extensively used in PvP; although Balorgh isn't really a pre-buff set, Stygian most certainly is.

Vizirith wrote: »

Pre-buffing is much easier to do in pve than pvp, period. That was never up for debate. Anyone who has ever done both can tell you that. Nb's can only use seventh in conjunction with mirage which no stamblade ganker would ever use, and it's useless for a magblade. Sure, stygian could be used to pre-buff magblade bombers, or it could be used by every class in pve.

Just reread that thread where you make the same arguments blindly.

Alright, you never refuted my point. I quoted multiple Developer comments, from 2017 all the way until now, directly stating that pre-buff sets were being used exclusively to one-shot players from stealth in PvP. You claimed "pre buff sets were 100x more common in pve than pvp" but have not cited a single Developer comment to prove your point. It should be easy. Please let me know if you find one, and I will happily change my tune in a heartbeat. Until then, there is zero proof, just claims.

I fully acknowledge that some pre-buffing sets may have been nerfed because of PvE, but to my knowledge, none of them were useful for PvP, they were changed exclusively with PvE in mind. On the other hand, many changes, nerfs, and penalties to PvE have been applied over the years as a result of PvP, the most recent of which would be the penalties to armor.

I would very much like for ZOS to implement changes to PvP exclusively through PvP rather than have it affect us. We just want to be left alone to roleplay, quest and chill.

Balroghs is not a prebuff set. Magblade solo bombers are also not the reason prebuffs sets got nerfed. They have never really been a significant threat to groups that know how to counter them. Literally have a modicum of awareness, throwing down a single instance of an aoe dot or not going afk counters them. The one shot builds that were chaos were the bow/bow builds. They prebuffed off vampire and titanborn but that change didn't affect PVE.

Psiion · April 2021

Greetings,

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