Why PVP balance is only getting worse.....

SgtNuttzmeg

I have seen a few posts already addressing some of the concerns people have about the upcoming patch but there frankly are not enough. ZOS your unwillingness to address the current balance issues in this game is really getting ridiculous. Instead of actually digging into the sources and causes of issues you implement band aid fixes with little foresight or thought behind them.

As a company before you release anything to the players you need to ask yourself two questions: does this change actually address the concerns of the player base and what happens if a coordinated group of organized players get ahold of this change? By now I am sure you have seen the tooltips that some proc sets have been reaching. I have not seen the tooltip people can get with Vicious Death but I can assure you it will be significantly overtuned. But the problem is more deep rooted than just the damage. Bringing them more in line would help but it isn't enough. It goes back to one of the biggest pain points of balance. The fact that the stats that buff damage also buff healing. This is the same problem we had last year prior to the proc meta. Healing was overtuned and everybody could stack damage with little concern for survivability.

This isn't the only issues you have created this patch. Consider Immolator Charr and Gaze of Sithis in the hands of a ball group. Have you considered what ball groups will do with these sets? With Immolator Charr, an immovable pot, potion cooldown reduction glyphs and the right CP selection it is possible to have an effective 100% uptime of hard CC immunity. Do you think ball groups will overlook this? Do you think we won't get every possible person in our group to exploit this? Because we will. What about Gaze of Sithis? A free 15% Armor/SR, 5k health and 1500 health recovery at the cost of blocking. Do you know which set every single person in every single ball group will wear? It's this one. It will be worse than snowtreaders and why? What value does this provide the game? None. All it does is it forces competitive groups to buy your next chapter or lose. It makes us harder to kill, increases or mobility and makes pvp increasingly more hostile for new players.

What about Salve of Renewal? Have you considered what a group of 12 players with 6 purgers could do with this CP? That's a 6k heal for each person purged for your entire group? No cooldown. Purge can purge can hit up to three people. That's three 6k heals. What about curse eater? Curse eater can proc on as many people as your direct heal can hit. That's eight purges and eight 6k heals. How many calculations does this CP add? Do we need this? No. Rework this so it does something completely different.

So what are we left with? A meta where Ball Groups get buffed and the average player that just wants to quest and have fun gets farmed, over and over again. Unable to fight players that know how to leverage these sets effectively or the Ball Groups that will exploit them to a new extreme.

ZOS listen to your player base. If the conversation you have to fix the meta lasts only a few hours, you are doing it wrong. This is not an easy meta to fix. It's too complicated. You have created too many overtuned things over the last year. It's not enough to reduce tool tips. You need to create a new standard, a new baseline or go back to the one you created last year and bring everything in line to that.

Once you have that standard, determine how much damage or healing somebody can get with a standard damage set like New Moon or Briarheart. Bring the proc sets in line with that. For instance, if a proc set has a dot that procs on a LA consider how much damage those LAs would do if buffed by New Moon and bring the Proc in line with that. Proc sets are not inherently bad. They can give classes that lack delayed burst, a source of delayed burst, they can give a dot based build more dots to work with. They are a great way to supplement a build, to lower the celling and to create build diversity. But they need to be desperately brought in line. More importantly you need to understand that players will exploit them. They will use them to their full potential. If you want game play to be less hostile to average players you need to test this prior to the pts. You need to think about how these sets can be exploited before we do because we will.

I'd like to add one more thing, I haven't seen the tool tips for the healing proc sets but if the damage ones are this overtuned, I assume they are overtuned as well.

Ranger209

I don't think procs should scale at all. They are gear effects and not skills. If you have 40k stam does New Moon or Briarhear give more weap/spell damage than if you have 30k stam? No, it is a set amount, there is no scaling. Why should free damage or heals scale with anything, they are free and independent of skills/abilities. Free damage and heals need to be more strictly applied, and should have no bearing on how powerful you can become by increasing your stats. Someone with 8k weap damage should not get more free damage than someone with 5k, or 3k. It is free damage above and beyond any class toolkit. Making proc damage and heals non-scalar gives them the opportunity to precisely lock in how much damage and healing they want a given proc to have. This I think is the best answer. If they need to differentiate the power level between PVE and PVP use battle spirit as suggested in various other posts.

Edit: Sorry if this detracts from your other various great points about chasing new gear, and how much more powerful it becomes each cycle, didn't mean to do that. Proc values were only one thing you touched on, and the others are just as important.

Sangwyne

PvP complains, Light/Heavy armor get hit with penalties. Medium armor survives unscathed.
PvP complains, pre-buff sets nuked because they were being used to one-shot from stealth.
PvP complains, all but 19 sets removed from Cyrodiil for several months.
PvP complains, now procs do even more damage and scale off of offensive stats.
PvP complains, health regen of all things is nerfed despite being a meme stat in PvE.

Now Medium armor is the only one without penalties, Stamina is even more meta than before, and scales healing from procs in addition to damage, healing, and shielding from skills, stealth, mobility from rolling and sprinting, and mitigation from rolling, blocking, and breaking free. Stamina builds now also scale damage from procs far harder than Magicka builds due to extra free weapon damage, and deal increased damage against Light armor for some reason despite Light armor already having the least armor and taking the most damage in the game. All that complaining only reinforced the absolute most dominant builds in PvP and slapped everyone else with random penalties they never asked for. Including PvE.

ZOS need to stop catering so closely to the whims of PvP. It's like holding a poll on taxpayers to see how much tax they want to pay. Spoiler alert, they aren't going to vote for the measure that's best for the nation, they're going to vote for whatever suits them the best without offering a solution on how to fix the overall issues.

master_vanargand

Do not ignore spell penetration in Light Armor.
Light armor has many benefits.

TheBonesXXX

Sangwyne wrote: »

PvP complains, Light/Heavy armor get hit with penalties. Medium armor survives unscathed.
PvP complains, pre-buff sets nuked because they were being used to one-shot from stealth.
PvP complains, all but 19 sets removed from Cyrodiil for several months.
PvP complains, now procs do even more damage and scale off of offensive stats.
PvP complains, health regen of all things is nerfed despite being a meme stat in PvE.

Now Medium armor is the only one without penalties, Stamina is even more meta than before, and scales healing from procs in addition to damage, healing, and shielding from skills, stealth, mobility from rolling and sprinting, and mitigation from rolling, blocking, and breaking free. Stamina builds now also scale damage from procs far harder than Magicka builds due to extra free weapon damage, and deal increased damage against Light armor for some reason despite Light armor already having the least armor and taking the most damage in the game. All that complaining only reinforced the absolute most dominant builds in PvP and slapped everyone else with random penalties they never asked for. Including PvE.

ZOS need to stop catering so closely to the whims of PvP. It's like holding a poll on taxpayers to see how much tax they want to pay. Spoiler alert, they aren't going to vote for the measure that's best for the nation, they're going to vote for whatever suits them the best without offering a solution on how to fix the overall issues.

1) Medium armor has not survived unscathed, medium armor is weaker to heavy armor than light armor is. Heavy > Medium > Light > Heavy if you followed the logic of the nerfs.

2) Pre-buff sets are not skill based, they're crutches. They should have never been made to begin with, there is a reason they nerfed buffs from being 2 minutes long to only 20 seconds long years ago, because pre-buffing isn't skill based.

3) They are not removed from Cyrodiil, they are disabled; it's any set that requires a server side calculation when players just wanted free damage sets disabled in PvP.

4) The desired outcome was Malacath does not buff free damage sets, only a few advocated for scaling; which was in itself a terrible concept and idea.

5) I'm not sure what this has to do with anything as health regen builds were barely ever used in the course of PvE tanking, so it shouldn't affect much to begin with.

True, but Heavy kills Medium, Medium kill Light, and Light kills Heavy. They're trying to maintain an "RPS" aspect to the game balance. Stamina is strong because people love making suggestions to nerfing passives that actively kill light armor builds and do not exactly show that they understand simple game mechanics, they scream "NERFF LOLOLL PTW CLASS" and cannot even begin to understand the disadvantages of each class, which renders their suggestions invalid.

Damage scaling is a bad idea and the availability and imbalance of Physical vs Magical damage in the game are issues that can be addressed separately. Physical vs Magical damage in itself can be addressed separate from all the other issues, a simple fix would be to normalize the calculations so they only need one algorithm.

But putting the blame on PvPers who have to fight to get any content while PvErs will always have their hands held and content always produced to them while being passive aggressive toxic snobs may be a huge reason PvPers act like they do in the first place.

If the game was properly balanced from the start there would be no problems.

master_vanargand

This update may have been successful if scaled Proc damage and heal sets with only Stamina and Magicka.
Stamina and Magicka have less impact on their skills due to their buffs and are less important now.
So this idea shines sets that increase Stamina and Magicka.

Canned_Apples

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
Proc sets just need a flat 25% nerf.
Don’t make things more complicated than they have to be.
Problem solved.

Sangwyne

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

1) Medium armor has not survived unscathed, medium armor is weaker to heavy armor than light armor is. Heavy > Medium > Light > Heavy if you followed the logic of the nerfs.
2) Pre-buff sets are not skill based, they're crutches. They should have never been made to begin with, there is a reason they nerfed buffs from being 2 minutes long to only 20 seconds long years ago, because pre-buffing isn't skill based.
3) They are not removed from Cyrodiil, they are disabled; it's any set that requires a server side calculation when players just wanted free damage sets disabled in PvP.
4) The desired outcome was Malacath does not buff free damage sets, only a few advocated for scaling; which was in itself a terrible concept and idea.
5) I'm not sure what this has to do with anything as health regen builds were barely ever used in the course of PvE tanking, so it shouldn't affect much to begin with.

1. Oh, Medium armor users take increased damage from Heavy armor users Like Light takes from Medium? ...No? Hmm. Heavy armor doesn't even have damage or mobility passives, but Medium does. And stealth. And sustain. And durability passives too. With zero penalties. Other armor types have penalties; Medium gets all the upsides with none of the drawbacks.
2. Still just another nerf to PvE from PvP.
3. Removed, disabled, what's the difference? "Oh you can still wear it, it just doesn't do anything". Ok.
4. Malacath should never have buffed proc sets, agreed. But allowing proc sets to scale even MORE now? And off the same stat that's used for everything else? Who decided that letting Syvarra's or Venomous scale even more was a GOOD idea?
5. It's a meme. Instead of directly addressing the issue, PvP will use anything and everything else as a scapegoat to avoid their own builds getting nerfed. Look at the outcry from Warden players when their busted Arctic Blast gets a tiny 5% HP nerf.

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

True, but Heavy kills Medium, Medium kill Light, and Light kills Heavy. They're trying to maintain an "RPS" aspect to the game balance. Stamina is strong because people love making suggestions to nerfing passives that actively kill light armor builds and do not exactly show that they understand simple game mechanics, they scream "NERFF LOLOLL PTW CLASS" and cannot even begin to understand the disadvantages of each class, which renders their suggestions invalid.

Heavy doesn't kill anything, it just survives for an extra second longer. If you want damage, durability, sustain, mobility, mitigation and stealth, Medium is your one-stop shop. All I am saying is that there needs to be real tradeoffs in PvP, and currently Medium users give up nothing and get everything. Regarding "nuanced classes", please show me the disadvantages of Warden and Necro; they had an answer for every problem, whereas other classes just had every problem.

master_vanargand

Sangwyne wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

1) Medium armor has not survived unscathed, medium armor is weaker to heavy armor than light armor is. Heavy > Medium > Light > Heavy if you followed the logic of the nerfs.
2) Pre-buff sets are not skill based, they're crutches. They should have never been made to begin with, there is a reason they nerfed buffs from being 2 minutes long to only 20 seconds long years ago, because pre-buffing isn't skill based.
3) They are not removed from Cyrodiil, they are disabled; it's any set that requires a server side calculation when players just wanted free damage sets disabled in PvP.
4) The desired outcome was Malacath does not buff free damage sets, only a few advocated for scaling; which was in itself a terrible concept and idea.
5) I'm not sure what this has to do with anything as health regen builds were barely ever used in the course of PvE tanking, so it shouldn't affect much to begin with.

1. Oh, Medium armor users take increased damage from Heavy armor users Like Light takes from Medium? ...No? Hmm. Heavy armor doesn't even have damage or mobility passives, but Medium does. And stealth. And sustain. And durability passives too. With zero penalties. Other armor types have penalties; Medium gets all the upsides with none of the drawbacks.
2. Still just another nerf to PvE from PvP.
3. Removed, disabled, what's the difference? "Oh you can still wear it, it just doesn't do anything". Ok.
4. Malacath should never have buffed proc sets, agreed. But allowing proc sets to scale even MORE now? And off the same stat that's used for everything else? Who decided that letting Syvarra's or Venomous scale even more was a GOOD idea?
5. It's a meme. Instead of directly addressing the issue, PvP will use anything and everything else as a scapegoat to avoid their own builds getting nerfed. Look at the outcry from Warden players when their busted Arctic Blast gets a tiny 5% HP nerf.

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

True, but Heavy kills Medium, Medium kill Light, and Light kills Heavy. They're trying to maintain an "RPS" aspect to the game balance. Stamina is strong because people love making suggestions to nerfing passives that actively kill light armor builds and do not exactly show that they understand simple game mechanics, they scream "NERFF LOLOLL PTW CLASS" and cannot even begin to understand the disadvantages of each class, which renders their suggestions invalid.

Heavy doesn't kill anything, it just survives for an extra second longer. If you want damage, durability, sustain, mobility, mitigation and stealth, Medium is your one-stop shop. All I am saying is that there needs to be real tradeoffs in PvP, and currently Medium users give up nothing and get everything. Regarding "nuanced classes", please show me the disadvantages of Warden and Necro; they had an answer for every problem, whereas other classes just had every problem.

I wonder the statement "Heavy doesn't kill anything".
In fact, any Armor type can kill enemies.

And the benefits of Medium Armor are very weak.
If want to add a disadvantage to Medium Armor, you need to add the advantage of Medium Armor.
It's counterproductive as it causes the Medium Armor to buff further.

Iriidius

Canned_Apples wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
Proc sets just need a flat 25% nerf.
Don’t make things more complicated than they have to be.
Problem solved.

I agree. Why should Procc sets scale with offensive stats when stat gain from sets scales with nothing. Players will find ways to make Procc sets op again, but it will become much more difficult to get a viable build. Seems like creating a viable build have become much more difficult since greymoor

neferpitou73

It's become blatantly clear that ZOS doesn't have a clear direction with their combat. The recent changes to proc sets only reinforce this.

In what world is it a good idea for stam toons to get a 35-40k VD tooltip? It took myself and other theorycrafters a few hours to figure out how to exploit all of these changes to get more free damage than you could dream of. You mean to tell me ZOS didn't think of this over the course of the weeks spent designing the system? If not something is very wrong.

They claim they want to make mag and stam toons equal but then have the procs scale off the higher value of weapon and spell damage. Did they realize it's easier to get high values of weapon damage? This is just going to make the stam meta worse. We're now designing stamina comps for my ball group. I know another ball group leader who said they've made their damage mostly stam.

After months of everyone complaining about the tank meta they add in a mythic that makes you even insanely tanky. A single item that gives you plague doctor levels of health and 2 sets worth of resistances. Oh, and they buffed Crimson (you know, the set that among others made everyone hate proc sets and lead to 6months of no-proc Cyrodiil) to scale off health. But sure they're trying to combat the tank meta.

Canned_Apples wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
Proc sets just need a flat 25% nerf.
Don’t make things more complicated than they have to be.
Problem solved.

Problem with this is then proc sets won't be viable for PvE. What proc sets you'd want to use in PvE I have no idea, but it would be nice to bust that meta up a bit.

Alekero

PvP was good at the start (i guess 2014) and specially in Cyrodiil. What happened after few patches till now - extremely bs thats why i dont bother myself pvping in TESO. Saves a lot of nerve cells tho.

Mayrael

Actually gaze of sithis won't give you a lot of HP recovery as now it's cut by 50% by battle spirit, f yeah, the real offender health recovery got nerfed, balance is restored, you may rest now ZOS...

/S

Edit, typos and:
Supposed nerf to procs made them even more of an issue. Magblades nerfed again and even more by health recovery nerfs because as the only one class without burst heal we used to count on passive health recovery and HoTs, now our choice is cut in half. In general terrible patch, MAYBE I'll be back when things will get better, till then it's just a waste of money and time. Have fun during procalypse 2.0

gariondavey

Great points, OP.

selig_fay

The only thing I agree with is that healing should be a separate stat. Moreover, I would like things that restore resources to get nerf and healing also affects the amount of resources that are restored. Otherwise, I think sets should scale from stats so that people start sacrificing defense for damage. If you want to kill fast, be a glasscanon.

ResidentContrarian

The problem is that they either don't read feedback, ignore feedback, or only listen to streamers that have a vested interest in the game remaining unbalanced.

After the first week of every PTS, everyone knows what is and will not be META and what is and is not OP.

Yet, the changes get pushed to live despite complaints every time.

That's not to say every change is bad.

50% nerf on HP regen? Needed since right now, you don't even have to invest to get 4k-5k-6k HP regen (even on mag builds) without even factoring proc sets that will raise those values.

However, things like scaling some sets that do damage and heal on HP is ridiculous. Honestly, those sets that heal and do damage either need to stop doing that or a cap.

We just got Templar's Ritual of Retribution nerfed because it did damage and healed, and yet Crimson exists, Leeching Plate, Bahraha Curse (lest offender at least), etc. and now they will scale with stats and heal far more than Ritual of Retribution ever did.

A lack of consistency and failure to follow their own rules for "rule breakers" will continue to make proc sets and newer sets a problem.

It's one thing to have a set break the rules and be interesting, but another to have it break the rules and be superior to every set like it in the game.

Ythotha

all they needed to do was to adjust overperforming and not fun to play against sets and now we have this lol

Seraphayel

Canned_Apples wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
Proc sets just need a flat 25% nerf.
Don’t make things more complicated than they have to be.
Problem solved.

More like 50%. Better would be a) they do not scale at all and have a set modifier per item / quality that just gets added together and b) procs do not get affected by Malacath.

SgtNuttzmeg

Canned_Apples wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
Proc sets just need a flat 25% nerf.
Don’t make things more complicated than they have to be.
Problem solved.

Seraphayel wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
Proc sets just need a flat 25% nerf.
Don’t make things more complicated than they have to be.
Problem solved.

More like 50%. Better would be a) they do not scale at all and have a set modifier per item / quality that just gets added together and b) procs do not get affected by Malacath.

I am not sure a flat reduction in value would be the best solution. They need to address how effective the scaling is. The streamer Kristofer made a really good video with a pretty cut and dry solution to this.

The main issue I have with all of this is the lack of thought and care that went into group play. Has anybody seen what a VD proc can hit with a build that has 9k weapon damage? What about Azura blight? I am sure they would be insane but that's the joke here. It wouldn't take much to calculate the expected values for these sets. Why is ZOS's QA department failing so miserably in this regard? Did they not test or look at these changes? Why did they not create a list of the most overtuned sets and test to see how difficult it was to abuse them? They wouldn't catch every set but this cycle they missed pretty much all of them.

SgtNuttzmeg

Mayrael wrote: »

Actually gaze of sithis won't give you a lot of HP recovery as now it's cut by 50% by battle spirit, f yeah, the real offender health recovery got nerfed, balance is restored, you may rest now ZOS...

/S

Edit, typos and:
Supposed nerf to procs made them even more of an issue. Magblades nerfed again and even more by health recovery nerfs because as the only one class without burst heal we used to count on passive health recovery and HoTs, now our choice is cut in half. In general terrible patch, MAYBE I'll be back when things will get better, till then it's just a waste of money and time. Have fun during procalypse 2.0

It's not so much the health recovery but the mobility that item gives groups that know how to use it. It's the same issue with the other set. The only true way to counter a ball group currently is to CC them in a negate and bomb them while their healing is down. That monster set is a free CC reset. You put that on the players running negates and suddenly you can't lock the group down as effectively. Those negators have a significantly easier time countering negates and enemy bombs.

neferpitou73 wrote: »

It's become blatantly clear that ZOS doesn't have a clear direction with their combat. The recent changes to proc sets only reinforce this.

In what world is it a good idea for stam toons to get a 35-40k VD tooltip? It took myself and other theorycrafters a few hours to figure out how to exploit all of these changes to get more free damage than you could dream of. You mean to tell me ZOS didn't think of this over the course of the weeks spent designing the system? If not something is very wrong.

They claim they want to make mag and stam toons equal but then have the procs scale off the higher value of weapon and spell damage. Did they realize it's easier to get high values of weapon damage? This is just going to make the stam meta worse. We're now designing stamina comps for my ball group. I know another ball group leader who said they've made their damage mostly stam.

After months of everyone complaining about the tank meta they add in a mythic that makes you even insanely tanky. A single item that gives you plague doctor levels of health and 2 sets worth of resistances. Oh, and they buffed Crimson (you know, the set that among others made everyone hate proc sets and lead to 6months of no-proc Cyrodiil) to scale off health. But sure they're trying to combat the tank meta.

Canned_Apples wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler
Proc sets just need a flat 25% nerf.
Don’t make things more complicated than they have to be.
Problem solved.

Problem with this is then proc sets won't be viable for PvE. What proc sets you'd want to use in PvE I have no idea, but it would be nice to bust that meta up a bit.

Relequens is a proc set. https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Arms+of+Relequen+Set. You do have good points though.

SgtNuttzmeg

master_vanargand wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

1) Medium armor has not survived unscathed, medium armor is weaker to heavy armor than light armor is. Heavy > Medium > Light > Heavy if you followed the logic of the nerfs.
2) Pre-buff sets are not skill based, they're crutches. They should have never been made to begin with, there is a reason they nerfed buffs from being 2 minutes long to only 20 seconds long years ago, because pre-buffing isn't skill based.
3) They are not removed from Cyrodiil, they are disabled; it's any set that requires a server side calculation when players just wanted free damage sets disabled in PvP.
4) The desired outcome was Malacath does not buff free damage sets, only a few advocated for scaling; which was in itself a terrible concept and idea.
5) I'm not sure what this has to do with anything as health regen builds were barely ever used in the course of PvE tanking, so it shouldn't affect much to begin with.

1. Oh, Medium armor users take increased damage from Heavy armor users Like Light takes from Medium? ...No? Hmm. Heavy armor doesn't even have damage or mobility passives, but Medium does. And stealth. And sustain. And durability passives too. With zero penalties. Other armor types have penalties; Medium gets all the upsides with none of the drawbacks.
2. Still just another nerf to PvE from PvP.
3. Removed, disabled, what's the difference? "Oh you can still wear it, it just doesn't do anything". Ok.
4. Malacath should never have buffed proc sets, agreed. But allowing proc sets to scale even MORE now? And off the same stat that's used for everything else? Who decided that letting Syvarra's or Venomous scale even more was a GOOD idea?
5. It's a meme. Instead of directly addressing the issue, PvP will use anything and everything else as a scapegoat to avoid their own builds getting nerfed. Look at the outcry from Warden players when their busted Arctic Blast gets a tiny 5% HP nerf.

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

True, but Heavy kills Medium, Medium kill Light, and Light kills Heavy. They're trying to maintain an "RPS" aspect to the game balance. Stamina is strong because people love making suggestions to nerfing passives that actively kill light armor builds and do not exactly show that they understand simple game mechanics, they scream "NERFF LOLOLL PTW CLASS" and cannot even begin to understand the disadvantages of each class, which renders their suggestions invalid.

Heavy doesn't kill anything, it just survives for an extra second longer. If you want damage, durability, sustain, mobility, mitigation and stealth, Medium is your one-stop shop. All I am saying is that there needs to be real tradeoffs in PvP, and currently Medium users give up nothing and get everything. Regarding "nuanced classes", please show me the disadvantages of Warden and Necro; they had an answer for every problem, whereas other classes just had every problem.

I wonder the statement "Heavy doesn't kill anything".
In fact, any Armor type can kill enemies.

And the benefits of Medium Armor are very weak.
If want to add a disadvantage to Medium Armor, you need to add the advantage of Medium Armor.
It's counterproductive as it causes the Medium Armor to buff further.

Medium armor is overtuned at the moment. The AOE mitigation from roll dodging plus the access to major evasion is probably too overtuned. But that is an entirely different conversation.

SgtNuttzmeg

Sangwyne wrote: »

PvP complains, Light/Heavy armor get hit with penalties. Medium armor survives unscathed.
PvP complains, pre-buff sets nuked because they were being used to one-shot from stealth.
PvP complains, all but 19 sets removed from Cyrodiil for several months.
PvP complains, now procs do even more damage and scale off of offensive stats.
PvP complains, health regen of all things is nerfed despite being a meme stat in PvE.

Now Medium armor is the only one without penalties, Stamina is even more meta than before, and scales healing from procs in addition to damage, healing, and shielding from skills, stealth, mobility from rolling and sprinting, and mitigation from rolling, blocking, and breaking free. Stamina builds now also scale damage from procs far harder than Magicka builds due to extra free weapon damage, and deal increased damage against Light armor for some reason despite Light armor already having the least armor and taking the most damage in the game. All that complaining only reinforced the absolute most dominant builds in PvP and slapped everyone else with random penalties they never asked for. Including PvE.

ZOS need to stop catering so closely to the whims of PvP. It's like holding a poll on taxpayers to see how much tax they want to pay. Spoiler alert, they aren't going to vote for the measure that's best for the nation, they're going to vote for whatever suits them the best without offering a solution on how to fix the overall issues.

There are plenty of issues that PVE has caused that has hurt the PVP community as well. Look at the changes to Dead Water's Guile for instance. As much as we may wish that battle spirit was utilized more it hasn't been and honestly if the way they tuned down procs was present in battle spirit or if they made procs work like VD/the slayer buffs, I would be happy. But I don't see a world where ZOS would utilize such finesse on this issue. It just doesn't have enough of a monetary reward.

Which leaves us with two options:

option 1 procs remain overtuned and you get to enjoy PVE with them.
option 2 procs are less overtuned and you can choose to either use them in PVE or to use a more traditional setup to make up for the loss of DPS/HOTs.

It really doesn't affect you either way. If you are using proc based PVE build you are likely not clearing content with any form of DPS check, so you really don't need them.

Ishtharo

Do you know what the worst part about all of this is? They only adjust things once every 3 months... THREE MONTHS. They have 3 months to see what works, what doesn't and internally test using best and worst-case scenarios. Yet, they refuse to this. I have to believe at this point, after 7 years of the pendulum swinging, the ZOS QA department only checks for bugs, and lightly at that.

They care little for balance, in both PvE and PvP, which is very evident by the changes we see come out of this studio.

Vizirith

Sangwyne wrote: »

PvP complains, Light/Heavy armor get hit with penalties. Medium armor survives unscathed.
PvP complains, pre-buff sets nuked because they were being used to one-shot from stealth.
PvP complains, all but 19 sets removed from Cyrodiil for several months.
PvP complains, now procs do even more damage and scale off of offensive stats.
PvP complains, health regen of all things is nerfed despite being a meme stat in PvE.

Now Medium armor is the only one without penalties, Stamina is even more meta than before, and scales healing from procs in addition to damage, healing, and shielding from skills, stealth, mobility from rolling and sprinting, and mitigation from rolling, blocking, and breaking free. Stamina builds now also scale damage from procs far harder than Magicka builds due to extra free weapon damage, and deal increased damage against Light armor for some reason despite Light armor already having the least armor and taking the most damage in the game. All that complaining only reinforced the absolute most dominant builds in PvP and slapped everyone else with random penalties they never asked for. Including PvE.

ZOS need to stop catering so closely to the whims of PvP. It's like holding a poll on taxpayers to see how much tax they want to pay. Spoiler alert, they aren't going to vote for the measure that's best for the nation, they're going to vote for whatever suits them the best without offering a solution on how to fix the overall issues.

I guess we have to have this conversation yet again.

1. pre buff sets were 100x more common in pve than pvp. Just reread that other thread if you keep fogetting.
2. Cyrodiil is in fact a pvp area, so therefore pvp should have the most impact? I don't even understand
3. Procs were never good in pve and now they will be so your welcome
4. Health regen in cyrodiil was in fact a pvp change. But as again cyrodiil is in fact a pvp zone. I still don't understand your point.

gurgamel

The new changes are not a solution to their previous problem its just a regular game change, i personaly like the idea of different scaling (stam, res, ad). It does bring out more foughts in combinding sets and char building. But the scaling is out of controll, what they need are some small adjust and soft caps → hard caps. The rugular dude wont run around with 9k spell damage to abuse a proc, one should get a small reward for it but the main reson to have that much is for the spells and LA to begin with. The sets should only be compliments for a char and not the other way around.

The main issue is that ESO does not understand the main concept behind game mechanics. For exampel, an AOE should be aprox 33% of an single attack. A dot should do damage over time and not burst, exampel dots deal damage right when aplied, usaly does not last long and deals damage every second if not every half. When dots should be used for long fights in a "war of atrition" style and last long with maybe every other second interval. Dont be afraid with high burst damage but then make them slow and "easy" to counter, exampel slow projectile and long casting time. High burst should be like a bet (win/lose) or used at perfect timing(enemy stuned and out of stam/blind spot).

Very much focus is on the damage proc sets, eso lacks the creativity with new sets and should focus more on other aspects, like debuffing and buffing. These are always forgotten, weak/boring.

Part of these foughts are based on what other games/films provide and combined set a standard that one is used to, but also logic. To actully have different builds that actully work different. Rock paper scissors, not saying rock always win over scissors but should have advantage.

Bashev

Because it is not a priority!

FrankonPC

Sangwyne wrote: »

PvP complains, Light/Heavy armor get hit with penalties. Medium armor survives unscathed.
PvP complains, pre-buff sets nuked because they were being used to one-shot from stealth.
PvP complains, all but 19 sets removed from Cyrodiil for several months.
PvP complains, now procs do even more damage and scale off of offensive stats.
PvP complains, health regen of all things is nerfed despite being a meme stat in PvE.

Now Medium armor is the only one without penalties, Stamina is even more meta than before, and scales healing from procs in addition to damage, healing, and shielding from skills, stealth, mobility from rolling and sprinting, and mitigation from rolling, blocking, and breaking free. Stamina builds now also scale damage from procs far harder than Magicka builds due to extra free weapon damage, and deal increased damage against Light armor for some reason despite Light armor already having the least armor and taking the most damage in the game. All that complaining only reinforced the absolute most dominant builds in PvP and slapped everyone else with random penalties they never asked for. Including PvE.

ZOS need to stop catering so closely to the whims of PvP. It's like holding a poll on taxpayers to see how much tax they want to pay. Spoiler alert, they aren't going to vote for the measure that's best for the nation, they're going to vote for whatever suits them the best without offering a solution on how to fix the overall issues.

1. Complains about what exactly? They reworked armor to make it more realistic. Nobody was asking for these changes
2. Pre buffed sets were problematic in pve, which is why they were "nuked". People were using arkasis to stack ults pre boss fights.
3. Correct, because proc dmg sets were extremely problematic in pvp. This was only in pvp though, so it's not like this change had an impact for anyone else.
4. This is in conjunction with the issue with 3. It's the same discussion you used twice.
5. Health recovery is problematic in pvp and it isn't in pve, so it was only adjusted in pvp. This is a good thing, right? Something getting adjusted in one area that isn't op everywhere.

Ok, now my turn.

1. Crit nerfs were because of pve
2. Pre buffed sets were nerfed because of pve
3. Mag dk getting constant increases in cost were because of pve
4. Orb nerfs were pve
5. Caltrop buffs were pve
6. The original buffs to proc sets were a standardization for pve
7. Necro crit passive nerfs were pve related

Just to name a few


Now, I could say what you said, that zos needs to stop catering to the whims of pve. However, I realize that some things are problematic in that environment and need an adjustment. Luckily we have battle spirit and things can get adjusted through there. Instead of pointing fingers at other groups of players and blaming them for something they can't fix, bring it up to the people that make the actual adjustments.

xylena_lazarow

Bashev wrote: »

Because it is not a priority!

That's the crazy part though, they did this massive proc set rebalance for the sake of PvP, so it clearly has some priority to them. But once again, they managed to tick off both PvEers and PvPers, as the changes show a tragic lack of metagame awareness and poor oversight (e.g. Crimson damage still scaling with HP and also being buffed to the sky). Unless something drastic happens this PTS cycle, except this to be a mess for months. ESO+ canceled.

Joy_Division

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Because it is not a priority!

That's the crazy part though, they did this massive proc set rebalance for the sake of PvP, so it clearly has some priority to them. But once again, they managed to tick off both PvEers and PvPers, as the changes show a tragic lack of metagame awareness and poor oversight (e.g. Crimson damage still scaling with HP and also being buffed to the sky). Unless something drastic happens this PTS cycle, except this to be a mess for months. ESO+ canceled.

The problem is while ZOS wants to do things, they do not invest the resources to ensure the job gets done correctly. If they had a developer that was fully dedicated to PvP and understood how Cyrodiil actually plays out night to night, what was strong, why the strongest build seem so oppressive, etc., that PvP developer would have instantly been able to point out the problems in the very first board meeting before it even reached the PTS.

Foto1

gurgamel wrote: »

The new changes are not a solution to their previous problem its just a regular game change, i personaly like the idea of different scaling (stam, res, ad). It does bring out more foughts in combinding sets and char building. But the scaling is out of controll, what they need are some small adjust and soft caps → hard caps. The rugular dude wont run around with 9k spell damage to abuse a proc, one should get a small reward for it but the main reson to have that much is for the spells and LA to begin with. The sets should only be compliments for a char and not the other way around.

The main issue is that ESO does not understand the main concept behind game mechanics. For exampel, an AOE should be aprox 33% of an single attack. A dot should do damage over time and not burst, exampel dots deal damage right when aplied, usaly does not last long and deals damage every second if not every half. When dots should be used for long fights in a "war of atrition" style and last long with maybe every other second interval. Dont be afraid with high burst damage but then make them slow and "easy" to counter, exampel slow projectile and long casting time. High burst should be like a bet (win/lose) or used at perfect timing(enemy stuned and out of stam/blind spot).

Very much focus is on the damage proc sets, eso lacks the creativity with new sets and should focus more on other aspects, like debuffing and buffing. These are always forgotten, weak/boring.

Part of these foughts are based on what other games/films provide and combined set a standard that one is used to, but also logic. To actully have different builds that actully work different. Rock paper scissors, not saying rock always win over scissors but should have advantage.

most dots are triggered every 2 seconds

stefj68

i tought topic was why pvp balance as always to kills pve funs!