The core issue of PTS for PvP - proc scaling and free stats

StaticWave · April 2021

First I'd like to thank ZOS for listening to the playerbase's feedback by implementing some changes for procsets on the PTS. However, I think there is a core issue at hand that ZOS may have overlooked - the new scaling will actually make the proc meta worse than before.

The first issue is the free 1k weapon/spell damage that we got from Flames of Ambition. These values have made it significantly easier to stack weapon/spell damage. On a medium armor character with literally zero weapon damage amplifying sets, I am able to reach almost 6k weapon damage... This almost negates the entire point of proc scaling due to how easy it is to stack weapon/spell damage. Furthermore, the ability to scale the proc damage past its original value also means that you can push for ridiculous tooltips on procs ( 19k vateshran 2h tooltip on PTS compared to 13k on live). This is completely imbalanced and needs to be adjusted for obvious reasons.

Another issue is the values that ZOS chose for the proc scaling. 38.5k HP and 27k+ resistances is very easy to achieve right now by moving all attribute points to HP with minimal loss in damage, and wearing full heavy armor sets that provide armor. The result is you can have ridiculous tooltips for certain procs like Explosive Rebuke (88k damage if you use 2h ultimate), or 14k+ crimson ( by stacking max HP). This scaling encourages players to just stack more into defense due to how easy it is to achieve those values, so I don't think it would help at all in reducing the tank meta.

I think ZOS should either increase the proc scaling values to make it harder for players to abuse the scaling, or simply remove the 1k free weapon/spell damage through Battle Spirit so as to not affect PvErs, but ensure that PvP stays balanced.

Narvuntien · April 2021

There is a limit on the cp stars you can use which means that if you pick the WD stars you have to lose out on the Stamina, crit resistance ones, and all the other defensive ones

So it is still a big improvement on being a full tank dealing tons of damage with procs.

Susurrus · April 2021

Narvuntien wrote: »

There is a limit on the cp stars you can use which means that if you pick the WD stars you have to lose out on the Stamina, crit resistance ones, and all the other defensive ones

So it is still a big improvement on being a full tank dealing tons of damage with procs.

That's not what OP is talking about. He's saying the changes to proc set mechanics, despite intending to nerf this playstyle have actually buffed it.

relentless_turnip · April 2021

From what I've read I think 4 things should happen:

1: proc sets should scale with both s/d and max resource pool to avoid any mag/stam discrepancy.
2. The requirement to reach the original tooltips is raised by at least another 1000 WD/SD and 5000 more resource pool, whichever is providing the greatest source of damage not a combination.
3. All proc sets have a cap via battlespirit or the requirement is raised further.
4. proc sets scaling with health or resistances aren't a thing unless they only boost your defence. No offensive scaling from defensive stats.

Merforum · April 2021

NO how about just remove those proc sets from PVP and stop ruin the game for vast majority to satisfy handful of people.

Canned_Apples · April 2021

Narvuntien wrote: »

There is a limit on the cp stars you can use which means that if you pick the WD stars you have to lose out on the Stamina, crit resistance ones, and all the other defensive ones

So it is still a big improvement on being a full tank dealing tons of damage with procs.

You won’t need crit resistance if everyone goes back to running cheese builds.. iirc, the weapon skill star adds 150 weapon damage. Nothing game changing .

You’re also forgetting about no cp and bgs, where the cheese meta is the worst.
They need to greatly increase the amount of weapon skill needed to meet the current values so that people will actually HAVE to invest in WS to run a cheese build at the cost of survivability and sustain...

oscarovegren · April 2021

The change is actually really good for PvE since procs may add some flavour to theorycrafting there. Apart from relequen procsets (5pc sets) have been absent in end game for a long time. Whatever change you will have to make to the scaling it has to be through either malacath, battlespirit or both to keep both PvP and PvE satisfied. The powercreep from high weapon damage scaling also has to be consider when balancing procsets for PvP

Health and armor should never contribute to damage tooltips by the way!

Elo106 · April 2021

relentless_turnip wrote: »

1: proc sets should scale with both s/d and max resource pool to avoid any mag/stam discrepancy.

^This
far to many people just treat spell damage and weapon damage the same, or max stats.

Max Stamina and spell damage are harder to stack than max magicka and weapon damage. Procs shouldnt treat them the same

MashmalloMan · April 2021

It would help to know what builds people are using for testing.. it's very easy to sway peoples opinions against this when you don't provide crucial information, but also.. how exactly does your post prove anything to ZOS. They're going to think the same thing I am.

For all we know you're using 7 med, 3 weapon damage glyphs, infused berserker glyph, warrior mundus stone, fighters guild skills in every slot, flawless dawnbreaker proc, 2 weapon damage sets, nirnhoned, swords. Etc etc.

But good luck sustaining that, penetrating or defending yourself at all.

Reminds me of the stupid absurd numbers people were using to complain about oblivions foe and soul trap before it was changed to a dot.

StaticWave · April 2021

MashmalloMan wrote: »

It would help to know what builds people are using for testing.. it's very easy to sway peoples opinions against this when you don't provide crucial information, but also.. how exactly does your post prove anything to ZOS. They're going to think the same thing I am.

For all we know you're using 7 med, 3 weapon damage glyphs, infused berserker glyph, warrior mundus stone, fighters guild skills in every slot, flawless dawnbreaker proc, 2 weapon damage sets, nirnhoned, swords. Etc etc.

But good luck sustaining that, penetrating or defending yourself at all.

Reminds me of the stupid absurd numbers people were using to complain about oblivions foe and soul trap before it was changed to a dot.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=334461

Build above is 5 med 2 heavy, 2x engine guardian, 5x spriggan, 2 trainee, vat 2h, malacath. It's not hard to reach 6k weapon dmg fully buffed. I also have 2k stamina regen as woodelf with artaeum, so sustain isn't an issue.

You can test stuff to see what I mean. It's not hard with build editor.

Urzigurumash · April 2021

@StaticWave

So are you in favor of making the scaling more extreme - lower lows, higher highs - or just having procs sets do less damage altogether?

Urzigurumash · April 2021

relentless_turnip wrote: »

No offensive scaling from defensive stats.

Why do you think this is bad, but defense scaling from offensive stats, i.e. most heals, is good?

JerBearESO · April 2021

people saying raise the bar another 1k wep/spell damage need to realise:

as soon as it is out of reach for toxic cheese builds, then there is no way reasonable creative theme builds can reach it, trust me. and why are procs even in the game. so players can "build their way". to be creative with buildcraft is a HUGE part of this game, and procs add a lot of flavor to that.

another tremendous issue with proc scaling is that no matter how you look at it, a player wanting to build around procs will have to go down specific linear build paths, invalidating the whole purpose.... you will NEED to go a wep/spell damage race, you will NEED to take infused wep/spell damage jewelry. you will NEED to use nirnhoned 2hand/dualWield setups. Kinda losing the purpose of THE GAME....

consider! once the scaling is set so the cheese builds only ever reach the stats needed instead of exceeding them, then the viable fun creative builds will only ever reach....HALF!

this is NOT something we should be trying to make work somehow. proc scaling needs to die NOW rather than 2 quarters from now when half the players have jumped ship. I truly believe this path will actually kill the game....

Roztlin45 · April 2021

Can zos just not put it back like it was. Then add one area for proc set and one area for no proc set. That is all most asked for. Not this scale crap.

Urzigurumash · April 2021

JerBearESO wrote: »

another tremendous issue with proc scaling is that no matter how you look at it, a player wanting to build around procs will have to go down specific linear build paths, invalidating the whole purpose.... you will NEED to go a wep/spell damage race, you will NEED to take infused wep/spell damage jewelry. you will NEED to use nirnhoned 2hand/dualWield setups. Kinda losing the purpose of THE GAME....

Do you think this particular issue would be reconciled if all of the procs got Resource+Damage scaling the way skills do?

As for races, no matter what happens with proc scaling, Redguard and Argonian need some attention. Bosmer is doing ok in this meta with the flat speed and Pen. At least that's my take.

ManDraKE · April 2021

the damage scaling for proc sets is far to generous, they need a curve that adds some sort of dimish returns on the top end. Also the 1k wpn/spell damage from the CP 2.0 rework needs to be toned down, i woudln't say remove it but cut it in half, even withouth procs this meta is too bursty, is so easy to build a glass canon and one shoot people, specially on bgs, it feels like call of duty.

If they go live as it is, we will endup with a tank meta en 5-10 months when people gets fed up of playin blitz PvP and complains that defense needs to be buffed. Is the same cycle over and over again.

And for the love of god remove damage sets that scale with HP. It promotes brainless and boring gameplay, HP should grant hit points and nothing more. Stop trying to force mechanics where the HP pool can be used to scale damage and healing. We always end up with busted stuff like the old Blazing Shield, Artic Wind, Crimson, etc...is a terrible idea, stop trying to push for that every single patch. The templar changes with more abilities scaling with HP are going to endup badly, everyone can see that from a mile away.

Amottica · April 2021

relentless_turnip wrote: »

From what I've read I think 4 things should happen:

1: proc sets should scale with both s/d and max resource pool to avoid any mag/stam discrepancy.
2. The requirement to reach the original tooltips is raised by at least another 1000 WD/SD and 5000 more resource pool, whichever is providing the greatest source of damage not a combination.
3. All proc sets have a cap via battlespirit or the requirement is raised further.
4. proc sets scaling with health or resistances aren't a thing unless they only boost your defence. No offensive scaling from defensive stats.

WIth the third point, capping the damage of these proc sets, couldn't that lead to effectively negating having them scale according to resources. When cap is reached one can still build for survival is what I am thinking.

I caption my posts as me being a noob since I have only been in ESO for less than three months, but am experienced in MMOs. I do not want to sound like I am speaking from experience in this game.

YandereGirlfriend · April 2021

StaticWave wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

It would help to know what builds people are using for testing.. it's very easy to sway peoples opinions against this when you don't provide crucial information, but also.. how exactly does your post prove anything to ZOS. They're going to think the same thing I am.

For all we know you're using 7 med, 3 weapon damage glyphs, infused berserker glyph, warrior mundus stone, fighters guild skills in every slot, flawless dawnbreaker proc, 2 weapon damage sets, nirnhoned, swords. Etc etc.

But good luck sustaining that, penetrating or defending yourself at all.

Reminds me of the stupid absurd numbers people were using to complain about oblivions foe and soul trap before it was changed to a dot.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=334461

Build above is 5 med 2 heavy, 2x engine guardian, 5x spriggan, 2 trainee, vat 2h, malacath. It's not hard to reach 6k weapon dmg fully buffed. I also have 2k stamina regen as woodelf with artaeum, so sustain isn't an issue.

You can test stuff to see what I mean. It's not hard with build editor.

I'm not seeing a huge problem with this example.

You've an 11k tooltip which will reduced to ~5500 damage under ideal circumstances. You also only have ~7k Penetration and most targets will have ~20k and up. Pierce Armor will help (that skill is pretty undeniably overtuned...) but the final damage dealt will likely be <5000. At <25k Health you're also pretty squishy in this meta.

It appears to me as though the build tradeoffs are working as intended - you have a full power proc but you have other holes in your build as a result.

StaticWave · April 2021

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

It would help to know what builds people are using for testing.. it's very easy to sway peoples opinions against this when you don't provide crucial information, but also.. how exactly does your post prove anything to ZOS. They're going to think the same thing I am.

For all we know you're using 7 med, 3 weapon damage glyphs, infused berserker glyph, warrior mundus stone, fighters guild skills in every slot, flawless dawnbreaker proc, 2 weapon damage sets, nirnhoned, swords. Etc etc.

But good luck sustaining that, penetrating or defending yourself at all.

Reminds me of the stupid absurd numbers people were using to complain about oblivions foe and soul trap before it was changed to a dot.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=334461

Build above is 5 med 2 heavy, 2x engine guardian, 5x spriggan, 2 trainee, vat 2h, malacath. It's not hard to reach 6k weapon dmg fully buffed. I also have 2k stamina regen as woodelf with artaeum, so sustain isn't an issue.

You can test stuff to see what I mean. It's not hard with build editor.

I'm not seeing a huge problem with this example.

You've an 11k tooltip which will reduced to ~5500 damage under ideal circumstances. You also only have ~7k Penetration and most targets will have ~20k and up. Pierce Armor will help (that skill is pretty undeniably overtuned...) but the final damage dealt will likely be <5000. At <25k Health you're also pretty squishy in this meta.

It appears to me as though the build tradeoffs are working as intended - you have a full power proc but you have other holes in your build as a result.

This is just a simple example. There are much better weapon damage builds with more penetration and max HP. You also forgot that max HP is very easy to achieve by shuffling attribute points.

No, the trade off isn’t working as intended because I can trade 5k max stam for 7k max health, which puts me over 30k in cyrodiil. There are also sets scaling with hp and resistances that deal damage > promoting tank builds.

Do you have PTS? I and many players have tested enough to make this conclusion, but go ahead and tell me why you think it’s not going to make the meta worse.

Urzigurumash · April 2021

StaticWave wrote: »

No, the trade off isn’t working as intended because I can trade 5k max stam for 7k max health, which puts me over 30k in cyrodiil.

What? Can you re-phrase this? What's this got to do with proc scaling?

You think the scaling is too generous, fine, but that isn't enough information:

Are you in favor of making the scaling more extreme - lower lows, higher highs - or just having procs sets do less damage altogether?

StaticWave · April 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

No, the trade off isn’t working as intended because I can trade 5k max stam for 7k max health, which puts me over 30k in cyrodiil.

What? Can you re-phrase this? What's this got to do with proc scaling?

You think the scaling is too generous, fine, but that isn't enough information:

Are you in favor of making the scaling more extreme - lower lows, higher highs - or just having procs sets do less damage altogether?

This has to do with proc scaling because damaging proc sets only scale with weapon damage for stam players, which is extremely easy to get. I can get 7.5k weapon damage and sacrifice my stamina (which according to the scaling, doesn’t really affect damage procs) to get more max HP. The result is I’m still retaining my damage at the cost of lower max stam, but gaining more HP. Since some of the popular proc sets now scale with HP and weapon damage, max stam becomes an insignificant part of a build. For example, a build that follows this build path is vateshran 2h, crimson back bar, unfathomable darkness body, malacath. With crimson I get 2 lines of max HP, and with unfathom i get a line of pen + weapon damage. I will still be able to reach 6k weapon damage, but I have a lot more HP. Since crimson damage scales with max HP, I could put all stamina attribute points into HP and gain 10k+ max HP, which would put me at almost 40k HP. My max stam is low, but I have dark deal and a ton of stam regen to ignore this drawback. So the end result is I have 3 proc sets with 40k HP and 6k weapon dmg. What stat build can compete with that? Probably none. Do you see the issue?

I think proc scaling at least needs to have a damage cap, or have a higher scaling value to force people to really work for it. Damage proc sets shouldnt scale with defense either like Explosive Rebuke or Crimson.

StaticWave · April 2021

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=341015

Here is the editor for vat 2h + crimson + unfathom + mala. I still have 6.3k weapon dmg and 38k max hp on the back bar to proc crimson. With how the scaling works on pts for proc set, I'd be even tankier and deal more proc damage. Keep in mind, this isn't the maximum potential of a proc build. I'm sure other people can make more cancerous ones.

Jaraal · April 2021

So instead of simply modifying a few overpowered sets that generated the vast majority of complaints, ZOS has chosen to open a Pandora's Box that not only doesn't address the issue, but actually buffs the problematic sets. Not only that, but it goes completely against their set "standardization" for performance improvements. They removed proc chances because they said it would reduce calculations, but now they've chosen to add even more data variables for their feeble servers to try and handle.

Nyladreas · April 2021

Jaraal wrote: »

So instead of simply modifying a few overpowered sets that generated the vast majority of complaints, ZOS has chosen to open a Pandora's Box that not only doesn't address the issue, but actually buffs the problematic sets. Not only that, but it goes completely against their set "standardization" for performance improvements. They removed proc chances because they said it would reduce calculations, but now they've chosen to add even more data variables for their feeble servers to try and handle.

Lol and why not? It's because the removal of said calculations barely had any effect... 🤦

While I disagree with procs even existing, this is fine. They've done a long test.

Artorias24 · April 2021

MashmalloMan wrote: »

It would help to know what builds people are using for testing.. it's very easy to sway peoples opinions against this when you don't provide crucial information, but also.. how exactly does your post prove anything to ZOS. They're going to think the same thing I am.

For all we know you're using 7 med, 3 weapon damage glyphs, infused berserker glyph, warrior mundus stone, fighters guild skills in every slot, flawless dawnbreaker proc, 2 weapon damage sets, nirnhoned, swords. Etc etc.

But good luck sustaining that, penetrating or defending yourself at all.

Reminds me of the stupid absurd numbers people were using to complain about oblivions foe and soul trap before it was changed to a dot.

You dont have to cheese out anything. I am using a normal build for necro. 2x Balorgh, Clever Alchemist Backbar, 4x With-Knight and Vate 2h Maul frontbar. Here is the Tooltip after using Clever proc, full vate proc, Berserker enchant and DB at 120 Ult.

17k already and its not cheesed Out. I am Imperial, could be Orc for even more WP damage, its a sharp Maul, could be Nirn Greatsword for even more WP. I am in my house so i also dont have c attack. Pretty sure with Nirn Greatsword, Orc and c attack i can pass the 20k TT

relentless_turnip · April 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

No offensive scaling from defensive stats.

Why do you think this is bad, but defense scaling from offensive stats, i.e. most heals, is good?

One allows you to build a tank and the other doesn't. If you have played the game you would no the difference. Even with 8k WD for example your heals don't make you tanky, they certainly make them effective. Not in the current meta and everyone having equal damage any way. If it just healed despite the tooltips it currently produces which is up to 20k per target hit on the right build then it scaling with health in principle wouldn't be an issue.

I don't really see any reason to debate this. Unless you think there is an active heal that can reproduce the same thing? For example a 60k heal from being attacked by 3 people? How much WD would you need for a heal like that? Besides that since when has damage ever scaled with health? And why would it? It breaks a pretty significant and fundamental logic of not just this game but any RPG.

You must have seen the tooltips being posted by now? Any one thinks this is fine is probably holding block already waiting for this imbalance to go live.

Urzigurumash · April 2021

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

No offensive scaling from defensive stats.

Why do you think this is bad, but defense scaling from offensive stats, i.e. most heals, is good?

One allows you to build a tank and the other doesn't.

So in other words because tanks are bad?

relentless_turnip wrote: »

For example a 60k heal from being attacked by 3 people?

If you drop an absolute and then go to relatives, we've lost the discussion.

ajkb78 · April 2021

relentless_turnip wrote: »

From what I've read I think 4 things should happen:

1: proc sets should scale with both s/d and max resource pool to avoid any mag/stam discrepancy.

Yes please. And ideally scale with (s/d + mag recovery) and max magicka (or stam equivalent) so as not to further increase the gap between damage and sustain races.

2. The requirement to reach the original tooltips is raised by at least another 1000 WD/SD and 5000 more resource pool, whichever is providing the greatest source of damage not a combination.

No thanks. Not for PVE anyway. It's hard enough as it is to get close to the original values outside of a thoroughly optimised trial group.

4. All proc sets have a cap via battlespirit or the requirement is raised further.

Don't really care. I don't think a cap is necessary yet unless there's compelling evidence coming from actual pvp on PTS rather than mere theorycrafting. ZoS tend not to like caps anyway, and if you go full damage spec to exceed the previous values then you're losing out in other areas.

5. proc sets scaling with health or resistances aren't a thing unless they only boost your defence. No offensive scaling from defensive stats.

Agree. For a minority of sets with these kind of dual effects perhaps split scaling would help so different procs scale off different stats.

relentless_turnip · April 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

No offensive scaling from defensive stats.

Why do you think this is bad, but defense scaling from offensive stats, i.e. most heals, is good?

One allows you to build a tank and the other doesn't.

So in other words because tanks are bad?

relentless_turnip wrote: »

For example a 60k heal from being attacked by 3 people?

If you drop an absolute and then go to relatives, we've lost the discussion.

No... Tanks that can do as much damage as a DD who has invested in damage are bad. Traditionally in any RPG including this one: you build to kill people, you build to not be killed or somewhere in between. How could zos possibly balance a game if people feel different to that logic? I have played tanky characters this isn't bias, this is fundamental RPG mechanics.

That isn't an absolute it is example and not even an extreme one. An absolute would dictate an extremity in one direction or another. This is achievable by going into Goliath form with 38k base health. Not an extreme nor an effort to achieve it. You can do this and still have 7k WD easily.

Urzigurumash · April 2021

relentless_turnip wrote: »

No... Tanks that can do as much damage as a DD who has invested in damage are bad. Traditionally in any RPG including this one: you build to kill people, you build to not be killed or somewhere in between. How could zos possibly balance a game if people feel different to that logic? I have played tanky characters this isn't bias, this is fundamental RPG mechanics.

That isn't an absolute it is example and not even an extreme one. An absolute would dictate an extremity in one direction or another. This is achievable by going into Goliath form with 38k base health. Not an extreme nor an effort to achieve it. You can do this and still have 7k WD easily.

And against what players are Rebuke tanks doing as much damage as a properly specced DD? (on live, I've of course never seen these 80k tooltips)

Blazing Shield has always had health-scaled damage, so does Impaling Shards.

The absolute you gave was that "damage should never scale from defensive stats", there's already things in this game which violate that, so your new law conflicts with precedent.

relentless_turnip · April 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

No... Tanks that can do as much damage as a DD who has invested in damage are bad. Traditionally in any RPG including this one: you build to kill people, you build to not be killed or somewhere in between. How could zos possibly balance a game if people feel different to that logic? I have played tanky characters this isn't bias, this is fundamental RPG mechanics.

That isn't an absolute it is example and not even an extreme one. An absolute would dictate an extremity in one direction or another. This is achievable by going into Goliath form with 38k base health. Not an extreme nor an effort to achieve it. You can do this and still have 7k WD easily.

And against what players are Rebuke tanks doing as much damage as a properly specced DD? (on live, I've of course never seen these 80k tooltips)

Blazing Shield has always had health-scaled damage, so does Impaling Shards.

The absolute you gave was that "damage should never scale from defensive stats", there's already things in this game which violate that, so your new law conflicts with precedent.

I see what you meant by my absolute, that was my misunderstanding. You are right in that regard and it was definetly a broad statement to make.

These skills you mentioned are doing a fraction of the damage comparatively to how they scale. How much health would you need to invest to get blazing shield to hit your opponent for the same as crimson on the PTS? If they were perhaps mirrored I could totally understand. I know that it has a 8 sec cooldown and that should be accounted for, but in PvP that is largely irrelevant, not so in PVE as they should equate to the same values.

I am not laying down any sort of law I am stating a precedent that has existed in RPGs from the begining and it is my opinion that these basic principles are adhered to for both simplicity in understanding and balance. I am not saying that all outliers are wrong(despite my broad statement), but in this particular instance and in the context of this discussion of sets like crimson. I believe scaling with health is the wrong way to balance this set or at the very least crimson needs a cap and a higher requirement.