Morgha_Kul wrote: »

In any case, I think one of the main issues here is how FAST things are allowed to happen now. The animation cancelling is one aspect of it, the general acceleration of the animations and activations is another. Snipe used to be a long pull of the bow and a release, followed by a long pull again. Now, it's practically a machinegun.

This is complete and utter nonsense. Global cooldown for skills remains at 1 s, the cooldown for LA is separate but also ~ 1s. Snipe has a shorter cast time than it used to but also correspondingly less damage.

i would like to see, at the very least for the purposes of the group finder, checks on what that character and role has done.

set a structure of dungeons, and make it a requirement to clear X before you can queue for Y. Why should someone's first random vet dungeon be vMoS?

If you want to queue as tank then you should have cleared the base dungeons on vet as a tank role. same for dps. haven't cleared white gold tower? then what are you doing in fang lair?

ThorianB wrote: »

Let's do a little experiment. If you can't fathom why casuals don't seem to care about DPS at all or as much as you/your friends/your guild does, then do this:

1. Imagine that ESO is a single player game. All content is designed for single player. You still have dungeons, including dlcs, vet, and HM. you still have normal and vet trials, but it is made for a single player.
2. Imagine caring how much DPS you are putting out before going into Stone garden or vet Moongrave. You are probably not going to care all that much about doing X DPS having Y uptime on your abilities, and having a perfect rotation. You probably aren't going to practice on a training dummy when you can just practice on the boss and not only learn what "rotation" works best for him but also all of his mechanics. Trial by fire if you will.
3. This is how most casuals play video games. Just because its an mmo and not a single player doesn't mean we suddenly need to start practicing on dummies and memorizing mechanics and perfecting rotations. Most casuals consider learning all this while fighting the bosses and doing the content to be the challenge and the fun part. Learning all this before you go in is..well... like watching the last 20 minutes of the movie first.

Part of the fun is learning while you experience it, not rehearsing it 100 times in Humblemud first. Learning it with others and even trying to beat it with a group of sometimes random people. The most challenging content in games is content you don't practice for, you don't look up, and you play with a group of total strangers of various skill levels. That is part of the fun. Its like having random challenges thrown at you that you overcome.

This practice on a dummy, memorize mechanics, make your rotation muscle memory, and play with people who have rehearsed rotations/mechanics as much as you only turns group content into a factory job...that you don't get paid for. I really do not understand why some players want to strip all the fun out of group content and turn it into an assembly line of bosses they methodically run through with well trained coworkers.

All that is your perspective (and its valid) but many players have a different perspective (also valid).

If I turned up to play basketball on the weekend with my team after skipping practice during the week, and then I'm a liability because I'm figuring out how to play with the team during the game itself, that's not fair on the team. To me not learning a solid rotation and learning how to weave is like skipping the mid-week practice session.

ThorianB wrote: »

Let's do a little experiment. If you can't fathom why casuals don't seem to care about DPS at all or as much as you/your friends/your guild does, then do this:

1. Imagine that ESO is a single player game. All content is designed for single player. You still have dungeons, including dlcs, vet, and HM. you still have normal and vet trials, but it is made for a single player.
2. Imagine caring how much DPS you are putting out before going into Stone garden or vet Moongrave. You are probably not going to care all that much about doing X DPS having Y uptime on your abilities, and having a perfect rotation. You probably aren't going to practice on a training dummy when you can just practice on the boss and not only learn what "rotation" works best for him but also all of his mechanics. Trial by fire if you will.
3. This is how most casuals play video games. Just because its an mmo and not a single player doesn't mean we suddenly need to start practicing on dummies and memorizing mechanics and perfecting rotations. Most casuals consider learning all this while fighting the bosses and doing the content to be the challenge and the fun part. Learning all this before you go in is..well... like watching the last 20 minutes of the movie first.

Part of the fun is learning while you experience it, not rehearsing it 100 times in Humblemud first. Learning it with others and even trying to beat it with a group of sometimes random people. The most challenging content in games is content you don't practice for, you don't look up, and you play with a group of total strangers of various skill levels. That is part of the fun. Its like having random challenges thrown at you that you overcome.

This practice on a dummy, memorize mechanics, make your rotation muscle memory, and play with people who have rehearsed rotations/mechanics as much as you only turns group content into a factory job...that you don't get paid for. I really do not understand why some players want to strip all the fun out of group content and turn it into an assembly line of bosses they methodically run through with well trained coworkers.

Your analogy breaks down when we are talking about vet content. Showing up all blind and doe eyed to experience content should be done in normal.

Runefang wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Let's do a little experiment. If you can't fathom why casuals don't seem to care about DPS at all or as much as you/your friends/your guild does, then do this:

1. Imagine that ESO is a single player game. All content is designed for single player. You still have dungeons, including dlcs, vet, and HM. you still have normal and vet trials, but it is made for a single player.
2. Imagine caring how much DPS you are putting out before going into Stone garden or vet Moongrave. You are probably not going to care all that much about doing X DPS having Y uptime on your abilities, and having a perfect rotation. You probably aren't going to practice on a training dummy when you can just practice on the boss and not only learn what "rotation" works best for him but also all of his mechanics. Trial by fire if you will.
3. This is how most casuals play video games. Just because its an mmo and not a single player doesn't mean we suddenly need to start practicing on dummies and memorizing mechanics and perfecting rotations. Most casuals consider learning all this while fighting the bosses and doing the content to be the challenge and the fun part. Learning all this before you go in is..well... like watching the last 20 minutes of the movie first.

Part of the fun is learning while you experience it, not rehearsing it 100 times in Humblemud first. Learning it with others and even trying to beat it with a group of sometimes random people. The most challenging content in games is content you don't practice for, you don't look up, and you play with a group of total strangers of various skill levels. That is part of the fun. Its like having random challenges thrown at you that you overcome.

This practice on a dummy, memorize mechanics, make your rotation muscle memory, and play with people who have rehearsed rotations/mechanics as much as you only turns group content into a factory job...that you don't get paid for. I really do not understand why some players want to strip all the fun out of group content and turn it into an assembly line of bosses they methodically run through with well trained coworkers.

All that is your perspective (and its valid) but many players have a different perspective (also valid).

If I turned up to play basketball on the weekend with my team after skipping practice during the week, and then I'm a liability because I'm figuring out how to play with the team during the game itself, that's not fair on the team. To me not learning a solid rotation and learning how to weave is like skipping the mid-week practice session.

[snip]

In your analogy, you said its not fair to your teammates if you skipped practice this week. Well to use your analogy, worry about your own performance on the team this week and not how good your teammates are doing. Because coach( ZOS) says everyone on the team has the right to play in this game and its not your job to decide who plays on the team, how good they need to be at their position, or how much practice they need to do before playing a game. That is coaches job. So stay in your lane and either learn to play with your team mates and consider their needs and wants, or quit the team gracefully.

This is the difference between casuals and competitive players. Casuals learn how to adapt to play with others for the 20, 30, 120 minutes its going to take to run this content. We give and we take. If one team member struggles we silently help cover their job and help them get through and learn to be better. Competitive players expect everyone to play on their level or a minimum level they created and if you don't play at that level, they want you gone "because your wasting everyone's( mine but i am going to say everyone) time."

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Let's do a little experiment. If you can't fathom why casuals don't seem to care about DPS at all or as much as you/your friends/your guild does, then do this:

1. Imagine that ESO is a single player game. All content is designed for single player. You still have dungeons, including dlcs, vet, and HM. you still have normal and vet trials, but it is made for a single player.
2. Imagine caring how much DPS you are putting out before going into Stone garden or vet Moongrave. You are probably not going to care all that much about doing X DPS having Y uptime on your abilities, and having a perfect rotation. You probably aren't going to practice on a training dummy when you can just practice on the boss and not only learn what "rotation" works best for him but also all of his mechanics. Trial by fire if you will.
3. This is how most casuals play video games. Just because its an mmo and not a single player doesn't mean we suddenly need to start practicing on dummies and memorizing mechanics and perfecting rotations. Most casuals consider learning all this while fighting the bosses and doing the content to be the challenge and the fun part. Learning all this before you go in is..well... like watching the last 20 minutes of the movie first.

Part of the fun is learning while you experience it, not rehearsing it 100 times in Humblemud first. Learning it with others and even trying to beat it with a group of sometimes random people. The most challenging content in games is content you don't practice for, you don't look up, and you play with a group of total strangers of various skill levels. That is part of the fun. Its like having random challenges thrown at you that you overcome.

This practice on a dummy, memorize mechanics, make your rotation muscle memory, and play with people who have rehearsed rotations/mechanics as much as you only turns group content into a factory job...that you don't get paid for. I really do not understand why some players want to strip all the fun out of group content and turn it into an assembly line of bosses they methodically run through with well trained coworkers.

Well first of all I dont really care why casuals dont care about dps, thats their choice. But if they are in my vet content group and dont pull their weight to the point where they get outdamaged by a tank in a full debuff setup they are gonna get kicked or I leave if kick doesnt work.

With the way combat in Eso works there is rarely a need to have a different rotation for a different boss. You dont need to consider when to use big cooldowns like in other MMOs and you dont need to plan around immunity phases etc. either because you have no cooldowns.

Blind runs are fun sure, but personally I dont run blind with a random group unless its new content because I dont want to screw over 3/11 people just because I have fun running it blind. I recently tried out FF14 and started as a tank. I looked up old content since as a tank I could screw runs over pretty hard if I have no idea whats going on. But to each their own.

Everyone has different ideas of fun. Doing vet hm trials as good as I can is fun for me and my group. Running Crypt of Hearts 1 for the 582nd time to get an ebon lightning staff isnt fun for me but just something that has to get done. Running pledges for the 1800th time since 2014 isnt fun either, I´ve done all the pledge dungeons hundreds of times, but again getting the keys is a step towards my fun. You and others are different and thats fine as long as you dont negatively interfere with my experience.

1. If you are in a public group( such as DF group), the only right choice if you are unhappy with the group makeup is for you to leave. Kicking someone because they don't meet your standards is not your place in a DF group. In a private made group, do whatever you want.
2. I honestly don't care if you ran this dungeon twice or 2 million times. If the dungeon is not enjoyable to you than don't run it. Just because you put yourself out for some artificial need( that you can get other ways) and make a grind of it, doesn't mean the rest of have to suffer because you want to blow through a dungeon. If you want to run pledges efficiently stay out of DF and stop spoiling content for others by racing through it because "been there done that" and " have 84578 more keys to get today!"

I wish they would get rid of pledges and remove crystals from DF as it would remove a lot of toxic players who are all ME ME ME from game play. I actually like playing with random people. I like the challenge of PUGs can't do it in the current climate though.

BejaProphet wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Let's do a little experiment. If you can't fathom why casuals don't seem to care about DPS at all or as much as you/your friends/your guild does, then do this:

1. Imagine that ESO is a single player game. All content is designed for single player. You still have dungeons, including dlcs, vet, and HM. you still have normal and vet trials, but it is made for a single player.
2. Imagine caring how much DPS you are putting out before going into Stone garden or vet Moongrave. You are probably not going to care all that much about doing X DPS having Y uptime on your abilities, and having a perfect rotation. You probably aren't going to practice on a training dummy when you can just practice on the boss and not only learn what "rotation" works best for him but also all of his mechanics. Trial by fire if you will.
3. This is how most casuals play video games. Just because its an mmo and not a single player doesn't mean we suddenly need to start practicing on dummies and memorizing mechanics and perfecting rotations. Most casuals consider learning all this while fighting the bosses and doing the content to be the challenge and the fun part. Learning all this before you go in is..well... like watching the last 20 minutes of the movie first.

Part of the fun is learning while you experience it, not rehearsing it 100 times in Humblemud first. Learning it with others and even trying to beat it with a group of sometimes random people. The most challenging content in games is content you don't practice for, you don't look up, and you play with a group of total strangers of various skill levels. That is part of the fun. Its like having random challenges thrown at you that you overcome.

This practice on a dummy, memorize mechanics, make your rotation muscle memory, and play with people who have rehearsed rotations/mechanics as much as you only turns group content into a factory job...that you don't get paid for. I really do not understand why some players want to strip all the fun out of group content and turn it into an assembly line of bosses they methodically run through with well trained coworkers.

Your analogy breaks down when we are talking about vet content. Showing up all blind and doe eyed to experience content should be done in normal.

It doesn't break down at all. It applies to every single aspect of group content in every MMORPG that i have ever played including this one. I use to run newbies( to end game content) through raids all the time in other games while hardcore raiders laughed and told me it was impossible that newbies couldn't do end game and vet content without a lot of practice and research... Been proving them wrong since 2006. When you don't cheat and look up mechanics and try to dps stuff down as fast as possible to skip mechanics, everything is a challenge, so you learn to overcome challenges just by playing the game.

Assuming you do content in difficulty order, doing vet dungeons is no different than doing normal dungeons. Doing trials is no different than doing dungeons. There is nothing special about trials or vet dungeons. They are just harder dungeons that base game dungeons. Big deal. Every DLC is harder than base game dungeons and has raid mechanics just like .... trials and vet dungeons. it's irrelevant that vet dungeons and trials have bosses with more hp, hit harder, and have more mechanics. All of this is normal to casual players who are use to a steady progression of challenges to overcome.

The problem here is we never get the chance to overcome these challenges. Competitive/elite players say "practice on a dummy, research mechanics" This is not how we get better, this is not how we learn, this is not how we overcome. We overcome by doing, not practicing. Its the challenge of beating that boss of figuring out mechanics, of making this group work so we can overcome that obstacle that drives us. We push ourselves to be better when we are in knee deep in content we have no clue what is happening and we are just trying to survive. We we try to brainstorm on how we can overcome this boss after a wipe we all push ourselves a little harder. THIS is how we learn. This is how we play.

But we are denied that playstyle because we always have to adapt to the rushed competitive player that has ran this 250 times and doesn't have time for us to actually enjoy the game. These players infect where we live which is DF because we love playing with random (nice) people. They are in guilds full of competitive players but they choose to ruin our gameplay by infecting a tool that is normally reserved for newbies and casuals in other games, because its more convenient for them to ruin our gameplay than to put the effort in to ask in guild if anyone wants to do pledge runs... people who play like them who want to run content like them.

I love dungeon running and i love raiding and i have did it extensively in every game that has it...but this one because others suck all the fun out of it by turning it into some esport job and won't keep their competitiveness to guilds of likeminded players. And its really a shame because ZOS dungeons are pretty unique as they are more like miniraids when you get out of base game.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

ThorianB wrote: »

1. If you are in a public group( such as DF group), the only right choice if you are unhappy with the group makeup is for you to leave. Kicking someone because they don't meet your standards is not your place in a DF group. In a private made group, do whatever you want.
2. I honestly don't care if you ran this dungeon twice or 2 million times. If the dungeon is not enjoyable to you than don't run it. Just because you put yourself out for some artificial need( that you can get other ways) and make a grind of it, doesn't mean the rest of have to suffer because you want to blow through a dungeon. If you want to run pledges efficiently stay out of DF and stop spoiling content for others by racing through it because "been there done that" and " have 84578 more keys to get today!"

I wish they would get rid of pledges and remove crystals from DF as it would remove a lot of toxic players who are all ME ME ME from game play. I actually like playing with random people. I like the challenge of PUGs can't do it in the current climate though.

Then I certainly hope people stop complaining when I speedrun stuff as a dps with taunt on backbar. Not their place to compain afterall.

Looks to me like you want pug people to meet your standards too and are angry that they dont.

The problem with dps is that they don't know how to block. They don't know how to dodge roll, they don't know how to interrupt, and they don't know how to respect the support part of the team.
Plain and simple.

Magdalina wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

There are very few dungeons with hard DPS checks that can't be overcome simply by playing mechanics instead. Aside from vLoM and maybe vMGF just about all of them can be done with 30k group DPS(though with DPS that low you really need focus and some like vSCP don't forgive mistakes). That isn't to say that dungeons are fun with low DPS...just that most of the time they can be done just fine substituting skill for DPS.

I am actually against the idea simply because it would push the game more toward DPS being the only thing that matters more than it already is. Sure...DPS is important...but honestly, DPS comes with time and practice, I would rather that people learn the skills needed in a dungeon than spending 20 hours practicing in front of a dummy and then be clueless and dead in a dungeon when faced with the real thing.

Interesting that you give SCP as an example here. This particular dungeon is a great example of what ZOS has done to throttle DPS with more punishing mechanics if you burn too quickly like with the first two bosses.

The first boss you have to coordinate and use one mechanic to fend off the other until it’s time to burn the two down together only you can stack the two of them together or you are gonna have a bad time!

And the second boss if you burn too fast you will be overcome by the lasers that turn you into stone. They have also removed the cheese on the other giant troll boss on the frozen ice. Have to play mechs now as of this patch because the big jump to the entrance will reset the boss now. That’s another one, burn too fast, too many adds, more geysers equals more death.

There is more examples of this in DLC dungeons including the newer stuff. They are forcing mechs no matter what DPS threshold you are hitting. Not necessarily a bad thing but for achievement/skin runs it can be punishing.

Unfortunately, they have not removed the cheese on giant:/ Honestly at this point it's a feature.

Far as the actual topic at hand - I second what @Grandchamp1989 - biggest issue isn't the dps per se, biggest issue is lack of overall player knowledge - lack of knowledge of both basic game mechs such as bash/dodge/block/don't stand in red, builds/rotations AND even needing either of those. It's absolutely fine for a player to play how they want and choose to be casual and rp a naked nord, fist fighting their way through open world, but while doing so they MUST realize that they are in fact gimping themselves and this very much will not fly in vet content. Currently they have no real way of knowing until they end up in a vet/vet dlc dungeon and can't pull their weight there - and even after that, if they actually want to learn, they'll have to turn to outside sources as the game really doesn't teach you.

I love ESO harder content but there really needs to be a better learning curve.

I think some of the struggle with learning curve is the abuse of normal dungeons. People dramatically over powered go there to save time. And when their power level trivializes the dungeon it also causes group mates to not learn.

First off I don't think "giving" anything to players is what we need for the eso economy, which is an important aspect of an MMO. They can purchase homes and target skeles in the game right now. The book of instructions might be good, but they've also added some of that to the leveling rewards process.

There are also add on and videos galore out there to explain things, so it's more about whether a player cares to learn them or not, not whether the info is there.

Also, DPS isn't the end all be all for dungeons. We used to do these in HM vet with waaaay lower DPS and defenses long ago, so there is more than enough DPS out there even for lower end casual players. What is needed is for them to care enough to learn the mechanics.

So either way, the problem is their willingness to learn more often than just pump out pure dps.

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

1. If you are in a public group( such as DF group), the only right choice if you are unhappy with the group makeup is for you to leave. Kicking someone because they don't meet your standards is not your place in a DF group. In a private made group, do whatever you want.
2. I honestly don't care if you ran this dungeon twice or 2 million times. If the dungeon is not enjoyable to you than don't run it. Just because you put yourself out for some artificial need( that you can get other ways) and make a grind of it, doesn't mean the rest of have to suffer because you want to blow through a dungeon. If you want to run pledges efficiently stay out of DF and stop spoiling content for others by racing through it because "been there done that" and " have 84578 more keys to get today!"

I wish they would get rid of pledges and remove crystals from DF as it would remove a lot of toxic players who are all ME ME ME from game play. I actually like playing with random people. I like the challenge of PUGs can't do it in the current climate though.

Then I certainly hope people stop complaining when I speedrun stuff as a dps with taunt on backbar. Not their place to compain afterall.

Looks to me like you want pug people to meet your standards too and are angry that they dont.

This is a perfect example of the problem. You completely ignored the point, made a strawman, and gave yourself a license to do whatever you want in a DF group based on that strawman.

Like i said casual players know how to work together with (most) strangers so everyone has a good run despite having different goals. Those casual players also understand this run may be fast or slow or not even be completed because that is the chance you take with a random PUG but they will work together to try to make it happen so everyone comes out with goals fulfilled.

The example you just gave is someone taking that idea, twisting into a selfish " I can do whatever i want because if you can run how you want, so can i!" and then using that as a license to create a toxic experience in group. That is not how casuals play. Its not" i can do what i want!" We aren't selfish like that. We know there is a solution in which we can get what we want and so can everyone else and we can all have fun doing it without making anyone feel bad about it.

"Hardcore players need to stop pushing their playstyle on people!"

"Hardcore players should just join guilds if they want to play the game efficiently!"

Both of these statements can be reversed. So which perspective is the right one?

Id argue that when you join a group as a casual, you actually force your playstyle on people. Depending on how "casual" you are, players will essentially have to carry you or choose not to complete the content.

Unfortunately there is no definitive way to play this game. We all just have to deal with each other and that's the bottom line.

If you are a hardcore player, just respect the casual player. Wait a second to let them talk to a quest npc. If the tank is new don't aggro ahead of them. Dont resort to kicking them, unless its actual hard content. Dont get toxic in chat.

If you're a casual player don't expect people to wait around while you take in the scenery, or slow down their dps so you can "take it all in."

Compromises have to be made.