My thoughts on DPS in this game PvE

Gulnagel

So as usual I see a lot of threads about dps in dungeons. And over the years it seems like the majority of players play more casual, and that is okey. You don't need much dps for overland content.

However when it comes to dungeons or group content thats another story. Some original dungeons are very easy in normal but on veteran they can be though for casual players. However newer dlc dungeons can be very hard even on normal or even impossible on veteran for the casual player. And let's face it the casual player are what 80% of this games playerbase?
And I bet a lot of these players want to get better at their dps, but this game does not teach them properly.

Thats why I'm so confused that now when we have dungeons with actuall dps checks, why don't ZoS give a little house with a 3 mil target dummy as a leveling reward that also comes with readable instructions in a book that explains food, rotation, buffs, the importans of maxing out stamina or magica.
Also they should split dungeons and clearly state dps requirements and no I don't mean locking people out I mean stateing clearly in red text that "you do need this amount of dps to be able to sucessfully complete this content" and also tells you "to see your dps you can use your dummy that came with your house" ect.
Since dps is a big part and also a wall for completing content it baffles me that they haven't done more. Since I belive that people wan't to learn.

There will always be players that ignore instructions, but in my world it is better to have a choice to ignore instructions than not have any instructions at all.

Also they should implement a mentor program, where veteran players can help new players with questions. Ofcourse the veteran players need to sign up for it themselfs and after ZoS approves you get a symbol over your head to Let new players know they can ask you. Like in Ffxiv.
And as a mentor you get free eso+ or something simmilar, but they need to actually see that you help players and answer questions and thats easy to logg.

Edit: spelling

poodlemasterb16_ESO

LOL. DPS is certainly useful. I make sure my chars are pretty well maxxed as I own all my own crafters and use only my stuff.

"There's notes involved" Little Terry Ted Bozio talking about playing for Zappa. Its not just DPS. There is so much more to combat in this game.

My low level, a level 28 NecroMag, did Toothmaul all by himself, by mistake really, he went in there for the Shard. He did it because he became fascinated by the Boss mechanism, before he knew it was the Boss. So he murdered the Sprigans to see what would happen and then after they were gone did Bloodroot. Chuffed by the notice he went on to do the Mini Bosses as well.

He is good but only because he knows how to fight. His DPS is not that impressive.

Jeirno

[snip]

Also, DPS on dummy does not correlate to DPS in dungeons or group content, so let's say if the group finder would say that you need at least 30k DPS to clear Scalecaller Peak. Person A goes to do a dummy test and gets 32k DPS, he goes into the dungeon and does 10k because mechanics are happening and he can't keep up his rotation during the mechanics etc.

Mentor system sounds cool but I feel like a lot of misinformation would be spread that way also [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Agenericname

@Gulnagel
I dont have an issue with your suggestions per se, but I feel like the DPS required can often be over stated.

Id be fine with them suggesting, but I feel like it would a lower number than most people would be happy with. The DPS requirement in most dungeons, vDLCs included just isnt all that high. Its more of a nice to have thing than an actual requirement.

Currently there is a forum thread now where a player showcased their dungeon completions of vDLC HMs solo. Its impressive and they're a talented player for sure, but it also shows that by following the mechanics high damage isnt an absolute requirement.

I also feel like they've toned down the DPS check some in later dungeons.

I agree with the spirit of your post though and wouldnt have an issue your suggestions personally.

lolo_01b16_ESO

Gulnagel wrote: »

And let's face it the casual player are what 80% of this games playerbase?
And I bet a lot of these players want to get better at their dps, but this game does not teach them properly.

Pretty sure a lot of those players don't want to do more damage. Even if you have no idea how damage calculations work, it should be logical that you do more damage if you constantly hit the boss as frequently as the game allows it throughout the entire fight. But when I meet players with relatively low dps they usually don't do that.

josiahva

There are very few dungeons with hard DPS checks that can't be overcome simply by playing mechanics instead. Aside from vLoM and maybe vMGF just about all of them can be done with 30k group DPS(though with DPS that low you really need focus and some like vSCP don't forgive mistakes). That isn't to say that dungeons are fun with low DPS...just that most of the time they can be done just fine substituting skill for DPS.

I am actually against the idea simply because it would push the game more toward DPS being the only thing that matters more than it already is. Sure...DPS is important...but honestly, DPS comes with time and practice, I would rather that people learn the skills needed in a dungeon than spending 20 hours practicing in front of a dummy and then be clueless and dead in a dungeon when faced with the real thing.

etchedpixels

For guild folks I've helped the biggest problem inadvertently seems to be the top end streamers and experts. Not by intent but because there is a ton of content about getting 0.89 light attacks per second and dummy parsing but almost none of the stuff they first encountered explain the real basics and where most of the damage improvement actually comes from. So people think you have to wear gold trial gear, have max CP and weave like a rock star to get non sucky DPS. Which means they then think "that's too hard for me to try"

The truth of course is quite different: reasonable overland gear, keeping the right buffs/debuffs active and maybe vaguely weaving a bit mostly by accident gets you to 20K on real targets (so way more on the trial dummy).

Just getting people in the right type of armour with the right passives and mundus, and a slightly better arranged skill bar is actually a lot of the easy improvement.

karekiz

I would say other than maybe LoM, most of the time it isn't just low DPS that is an issue (Most things are fairly forgiving). More often low DPS players are also ones that are generally bad mechanically or die a lot.

BlueRaven

Our guild has a “Help my build” section for pve and for pvp in our discord. What’s more in our guild house we have several target dummies (along with every crafting table for all craftables sets).

This teach and mentoring systems seems better suited to guilds, than something for Zos to implement.

As an aside, growing up I remember having an uncle who insisted on “teaching” us about how to play our board games properly. Risk, Monopoly, etc, changed from being fun into being tedious. We just wanted to play the game.

I think a lot of people view video games the same way. They don’t want to “learn”, they just want to have fun.

And that is the central problem mmos have, there is a group that want to play it at its hardest, and there is another who just want to take it easy. And the mmo has to somehow accommodate both groups.

Myself, I have characters that have cleared vet trials, and I also have characters to just goof around on, with “hand-me-down” unoptimized gear. So personally I am somewhere in between. (Not that it matters a whole lot, I don’t do dungeons with pugs.)

Grandchamp1989

Problem is that the game doesn't teach you.

You start the game and are completely overwhelmed by the amount of absolute CONTENT.

Then in the very beginning of the tutorial they go "Do 2 bashes, 2 heavy attacks, 2 blocks" Good now you're on your own.

100 hours later you haven't used these mechanics ONCE in overland and regular normal dungeons.. So you forget all about them.

Then you reach normal DLC where you need to know the timings of interrupts and mechs in advance, and how you need to apply something you haven't used since the tutorial.........

In terms of rotation, weaving and animation canceling, DOTs, HOTs, Spammables etc it's never taught.

I really don't blame the players when some poor guy gets himself lost in a vet Crypt of Hearts 2 and try to light attack his way to succes. Or even worse.. a vet DLC...

They released Arena's like Maelstrom which is decent for teaching timed roll dodges and interrupts, but still nothing about becoming a more competent fighter. Also it's a DLC....

Learning to play the game properly is completely outsourced to 3rd party websites and youtube video's.

This game you can play it for 500 hours and never get better at it, because it doesn't teach you anything lol.

The tutorials and overland needs a makeover. The game should teach the player.
Have overland quest bosses give a notification "interrupt now" "Roll Dodge timing" to have the overland quests have some sort of purpose.
Progression is this game is not very good IMO.

Kwoung

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

The tutorials and overland needs a makeover. The game should teach the player.
Progression is this game is not very good IMO.

I agree 100%, mostly for the mere reason that ESO decided to go with a new combat system that players of pretty much any (every?) other MMO would find completely foreign and non-intuitive.

Light attacks? That's something your character does automatically when you start combat in most games, and your focus is just on which skill to cast next (your rotation). Also, being limited to only 6 skills at a time on your bar and having to flip bars to access another 6, unique as far as games I have played go. Also, having to use your dang keyboard IMHO, a lot of players from other games just clicked their skillbar with a mouse to cast stuff, especially in games like EQ2 where you could have many skillbars active at once, each with 8-10 skills available on it (can't remember)... you simply couldn't have that many hotkeys so using your mouse was the only option.

zvavi

Look what I dug out. Still relevant.https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/524205/the-undaunted-certification-zvavi-is-bored-in-quarantine#latest

BejaProphet

@Grandchamp1989
ZOS will not teach DPS as well as third party content creators. And ZOS can’t make people care enough to learn from them.

Anybody who is willing to try to learn will learn enough to be acceptable in dungeons with the resources currently available.

The struggle is people either not caring, or being to scared to fail such that they pretend something else must be to blame other than them refusing to learn.

That’s my take on it anyway.

Everest_Lionheart

josiahva wrote: »

There are very few dungeons with hard DPS checks that can't be overcome simply by playing mechanics instead. Aside from vLoM and maybe vMGF just about all of them can be done with 30k group DPS(though with DPS that low you really need focus and some like vSCP don't forgive mistakes). That isn't to say that dungeons are fun with low DPS...just that most of the time they can be done just fine substituting skill for DPS.

I am actually against the idea simply because it would push the game more toward DPS being the only thing that matters more than it already is. Sure...DPS is important...but honestly, DPS comes with time and practice, I would rather that people learn the skills needed in a dungeon than spending 20 hours practicing in front of a dummy and then be clueless and dead in a dungeon when faced with the real thing.

Interesting that you give SCP as an example here. This particular dungeon is a great example of what ZOS has done to throttle DPS with more punishing mechanics if you burn too quickly like with the first two bosses.

The first boss you have to coordinate and use one mechanic to fend off the other until it’s time to burn the two down together only you can stack the two of them together or you are gonna have a bad time!

And the second boss if you burn too fast you will be overcome by the lasers that turn you into stone. They have also removed the cheese on the other giant troll boss on the frozen ice. Have to play mechs now as of this patch because the big jump to the entrance will reset the boss now. That’s another one, burn too fast, too many adds, more geysers equals more death.

There is more examples of this in DLC dungeons including the newer stuff. They are forcing mechs no matter what DPS threshold you are hitting. Not necessarily a bad thing but for achievement/skin runs it can be punishing.

Runefang

Kwoung wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

The tutorials and overland needs a makeover. The game should teach the player.
Progression is this game is not very good IMO.

I agree 100%, mostly for the mere reason that ESO decided to go with a new combat system that players of pretty much any (every?) other MMO would find completely foreign and non-intuitive.

Light attacks? That's something your character does automatically when you start combat in most games, and your focus is just on which skill to cast next (your rotation). Also, being limited to only 6 skills at a time on your bar and having to flip bars to access another 6, unique as far as games I have played go. Also, having to use your dang keyboard IMHO, a lot of players from other games just clicked their skillbar with a mouse to cast stuff, especially in games like EQ2 where you could have many skillbars active at once, each with 8-10 skills available on it (can't remember)... you simply couldn't have that many hotkeys so using your mouse was the only option.

I play this game because its not like other MMOs though.

Parasaurolophus

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/568853/light-attacks-and-abilities-damage/p1
I would suggest making light attacks less dps-worthy and increasing the damage from abilities.
Well, more and more players notice that there are a lot of casual players and this worries them. I remember how at the start of Elsweyr, in the chat area, players organized raids in vSS to farm perfect sets. Now this is difficult to imagine. Nowadays, any veteran trial with random players is almost impassable.

Kwoung

Runefang wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

The tutorials and overland needs a makeover. The game should teach the player.
Progression is this game is not very good IMO.

I agree 100%, mostly for the mere reason that ESO decided to go with a new combat system that players of pretty much any (every?) other MMO would find completely foreign and non-intuitive.

Light attacks? That's something your character does automatically when you start combat in most games, and your focus is just on which skill to cast next (your rotation). Also, being limited to only 6 skills at a time on your bar and having to flip bars to access another 6, unique as far as games I have played go. Also, having to use your dang keyboard IMHO, a lot of players from other games just clicked their skillbar with a mouse to cast stuff, especially in games like EQ2 where you could have many skillbars active at once, each with 8-10 skills available on it (can't remember)... you simply couldn't have that many hotkeys so using your mouse was the only option.

I play this game because its not like other MMOs though.

That is fine, but doesn't address the point that you have to turn to outside sources (something I rarely did in my 24 years of MMO's before ESO) to figure out how the dang game works. I personally prefer not having to access outside sources, except maybe when really stuck on a quest. Having to do so to learn basic game mechanics... is a failure on the games part in my opinion.

As an aside off the topic of this thread... If it wasn't for Xynode's "All About Mechanics" series, I would put money on most players not even being able to figure out and progress through much of the dungeon content without considerable pain or just giving up. I am usually pretty good at it in other games, but in ESO, while some is fairly straight forward and makes sense, other stuff makes no sense, is way to confusing to figure out, and when you read how to do it to get past that point, you are like what, really who thought this crazy stuff up and how exactly does that even fit in?

Merforum

The single best thing that increases DPS in any dungeon is a good tank. At a minimum a tank that holds boss inside all the group aoes will increase group DPS more than anything. As a bonus if the tank can pull everything into a pile, DPS is off the charts.

I would rather have 2 10K DPS, plus tank/healer doing about 10K for 30K group DPS in all fights rather than the fake tank who can maybe to 100K on a dummy but does less than 10K in a real fight because he is running around the room kiting the boss and/or the rest of the team running around the room kill everything one by one.

One big problem I see lately is fake tank or any role where 1 dude is just running through thinking every dungeon is just like the XP grind locations. But doesn't realize running pat 10 mobs, with LA to pull them in, and hoping they will all pile up in a corner for you, DOES NOT WORK in group dungeons.

There are places where you can strategically make good piles of enemies but not more than about 10-15 at a time. Trying to pile up 40 adds across several rooms only spreads them out and makes it much harder for the team because you have to chase them and kill one or two at a time.

Sanguinor2

Merforum wrote: »

The single best thing that increases DPS in any dungeon is a good tank. At a minimum a tank that holds boss inside all the group aoes will increase group DPS more than anything. As a bonus if the tank can pull everything into a pile, DPS is off the charts.

I would rather have 2 10K DPS, plus tank/healer doing about 10K for 30K group DPS in all fights rather than the fake tank who can maybe to 100K on a dummy but does less than 10K in a real fight because he is running around the room kiting the boss and/or the rest of the team running around the room kill everything one by one.

One big problem I see lately is fake tank or any role where 1 dude is just running through thinking every dungeon is just like the XP grind locations. But doesn't realize running pat 10 mobs, with LA to pull them in, and hoping they will all pile up in a corner for you, DOES NOT WORK in group dungeons.

There are places where you can strategically make good piles of enemies but not more than about 10-15 at a time. Trying to pile up 40 adds across several rooms only spreads them out and makes it much harder for the team because you have to chase them and kill one or two at a time.

Nah. If the dds do not know how to actually dps then a good tank does nothing except die of boredom. The single biggest thing to increase dps in a dungeon is the dds knowing how dps works. Afterall if a dd is only la spamming or only snipe spamming or dizzy spamming, you get the idea, there is nothing a good tank can do to influence the damage done.

Jaimeh

Gulnagel wrote: »

Since I belive that people wan't to learn.

I think tje opposite, most players don't, and they are OK with how they're playing to get their enjoyment out of the game. Even though the game could definitely do better in explaining core combat mechanics, if someone really wants to improve there are so many resources available nowdays, that there's no excuse.

BejaProphet

Merforum wrote: »

The single best thing that increases DPS in any dungeon is a good tank. At a minimum a tank that holds boss inside all the group aoes will increase group DPS more than anything. As a bonus if the tank can pull everything into a pile, DPS is off the charts.

I would rather have 2 10K DPS, plus tank/healer doing about 10K for 30K group DPS in all fights rather than the fake tank who can maybe to 100K on a dummy but does less than 10K in a real fight because he is running around the room kiting the boss and/or the rest of the team running around the room kill everything one by one.

One big problem I see lately is fake tank or any role where 1 dude is just running through thinking every dungeon is just like the XP grind locations. But doesn't realize running pat 10 mobs, with LA to pull them in, and hoping they will all pile up in a corner for you, DOES NOT WORK in group dungeons.

There are places where you can strategically make good piles of enemies but not more than about 10-15 at a time. Trying to pile up 40 adds across several rooms only spreads them out and makes it much harder for the team because you have to chase them and kill one or two at a time.

I would argue that a good tank is a multiplier to the group damage. Usually a great tank does wonders for a group’s damage. But it is possible for the damage dealers to be so bad that a classical “tank” is no longer what is needed.

Let’s imagine that a great support oriented tank boosts group out put by 70%

Well in most groups that is going to be the way to go. But what if the combined team damage is 16k? There just isn’t anything there to multiply! Suddenly a tank that can do 20k damage is actually what they need.

Rkindaleft

There's also a discrepancy between needed DPS and recommended DPS. For example you can probably mathematically do vHOFhm execute with 25k dps, but nobody is realistically going to run vHOF with hopes of a clear with a team of 25k dps.

The biggest DPS check in the game is the portals in vSShm. The mini has 11m health with 90 seconds to do it, so each DPS needs to do consistent 41k dps while playing fight mechanics or it's a wipe.

KovalskyNestor

I would like to add that good healers make a big difference in group content (not just tanks). This is something I notice as a dps player. If I have buffs, resources and health bar that I don't have to worry about, I can do much more dps.

Also, I agree with op here. There is a big difference between playing casually and vet content. I remember when I tried to get good at dps, I felt discouraged how the game gives you little to work on. I put off playing ESO for few weeks because I couldn't grasp the concept of dps and what I had to do in order to play vet content.
It forces you to go and watch videos on how to weave, cancel animation. Until then I thought all you had to do is to press buttons in correct order and that was it.

Stevie6

If you want to help with casual / low skilled player’s dps, then what has to happen is to raise skill damage and add max penetration so that their damage actually counts. What happens when a person can’t break an npc’s mitigation of 18500? Let’s say I have 11000 dps and low to no penetration..then that’s a problem.

The overall damage system has to change. Just eliminate penetration and mitigation and use flat damage values. What would happen would be monsters with higher health values and maybe more mechanics to deal with. This would be for normal and vet dungeons. That might help the low to casual player. For those that want harder dungeon content. There should be two sets of dungeon modes.

Normal, veteran (without mitigation). Basically for casual players

Normal, veteran (with mitigation) and hard mode. This is for better players.

The rewards would be the same. Casuals and noobs can learn the mechanics of each dungeon with an npc / story guide explaining what to expect and an after action report to tell the player what can be done for improvement. For the hard core player base, the rewards are the same but doubled. More money, points, and maybe better skins, etc. Devs might come up with a shoulder, helm, and weapon drop...

The idea is get everyone involved in all game content no matter how bad they are...just to have fun. This segregation of the player base via dps checks has to change.

Aertew

Gulnagel wrote: »

So as usual I see a lot of threads about dps in dungeons. And over the years it seems like the majority of players play more casual, and that is okey. You don't need much dps for overland content.

However when it comes to dungeons or group content thats another story. Some original dungeons are very easy in normal but on veteran they can be though for casual players. However newer dlc dungeons can be very hard even on normal or even impossible on veteran for the casual player. And let's face it the casual player are what 80% of this games playerbase?
And I bet a lot of these players want to get better at their dps, but this game does not teach them properly.

Thats why I'm so confused that now when we have dungeons with actuall dps checks, why don't ZoS give a little house with a 3 mil target dummy as a leveling reward that also comes with readable instructions in a book that explains food, rotation, buffs, the importans of maxing out stamina or magica.
Also they should split dungeons and clearly state dps requirements and no I don't mean locking people out I mean stateing clearly in red text that "you do need this amount of dps to be able to sucessfully complete this content" and also tells you "to see your dps you can use your dummy that came with your house" ect.
Since dps is a big part and also a wall for completing content it baffles me that they haven't done more. Since I belive that people wan't to learn.

There will always be players that ignore instructions, but in my world it is better to have a choice to ignore instructions than not have any instructions at all.

Also they should implement a mentor program, where veteran players can help new players with questions. Ofcourse the veteran players need to sign up for it themselfs and after ZoS approves you get a symbol over your head to Let new players know they can ask you. Like in Ffxiv.
And as a mentor you get free eso+ or something simmilar, but they need to actually see that you help players and answer questions and thats easy to logg.

Edit: spelling

I bought the newest dungeons and they easy on normal. I think i was farming sets for my sorc so i only had 1 crafted set active and I had like 10-1/5k DPS?

Merforum

BejaProphet wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

The single best thing that increases DPS in any dungeon is a good tank. At a minimum a tank that holds boss inside all the group aoes will increase group DPS more than anything. As a bonus if the tank can pull everything into a pile, DPS is off the charts.

I would rather have 2 10K DPS, plus tank/healer doing about 10K for 30K group DPS in all fights rather than the fake tank who can maybe to 100K on a dummy but does less than 10K in a real fight because he is running around the room kiting the boss and/or the rest of the team running around the room kill everything one by one.

One big problem I see lately is fake tank or any role where 1 dude is just running through thinking every dungeon is just like the XP grind locations. But doesn't realize running pat 10 mobs, with LA to pull them in, and hoping they will all pile up in a corner for you, DOES NOT WORK in group dungeons.

There are places where you can strategically make good piles of enemies but not more than about 10-15 at a time. Trying to pile up 40 adds across several rooms only spreads them out and makes it much harder for the team because you have to chase them and kill one or two at a time.

I would argue that a good tank is a multiplier to the group damage. Usually a great tank does wonders for a group’s damage. But it is possible for the damage dealers to be so bad that a classical “tank” is no longer what is needed.

Let’s imagine that a great support oriented tank boosts group out put by 70%

Well in most groups that is going to be the way to go. But what if the combined team damage is 16k? There just isn’t anything there to multiply! Suddenly a tank that can do 20k damage is actually what they need.

I have done 100s of runs on pug normal and no matter what if I am tank and able to hold boss/pile adds the DPS is fine, it is only when people start running ahead and not letting me set it up that DPS goes way down, with good or bad DPS it is same.

BTW I use grth, azureblight, leeching, caltrops, vateshran ice staff back bar, crushing enchant, I do 8K single target DPS and as high as 78K DPS in huge mobs. With this setup anyone can do all job of tank plus enough damage to do all normals. On Vet usually just change to bloodspawn helm and can do most content too.

I actually like using healer better cause it is just so much easier but 75+% there is a terrible tank that makes every run a mess. A good tank makes everyone's job super easy, just let tank put boss somewhere, turn him away from group, pile up some adds, then rest of team can stand behind pile and do their rotation, and healer can stand right behind them healing occasionally and doing damage.

BTW DPS and Healer should stay as close to pile as possible because really only time tank will lose taunt is during mechanics that have boss jump to another player and that either wont happen or is easy to retaunt if everyone is close by. Tip of day.:)

BTW when I'm healer I usually do 10K DPS easy plus all healing/shielding and some team buffs.

Morgha_Kul

It is a fact that many... even MOST players will never be able to produce the kind of dps the guys at the top end are doing... not matter how they gear, no matter how much they practice... it's simply not possible for many or most players, for any number of reasons.

In my mind, this is a serious problem... because it's essentially making a substantial amount of content completely inaccessible to those players, to say nothing of PvP.

The issue is that the RANGE of dps is far too great. The curve is much too shallow, as I've said elsewhere. As your dps increases, it should become more and more difficult to increase it further. This USED to be how things were done, way back in the day.

Consider D&D. At L1, your character armed with a Longsword could do 1d8 damage (ie. 1-8 damage). Sure, there would be strength bonuses and such, but on average, that was it. By the time you were L15 (which was pretty high in those days), your longsword would be doing... 1d8 damage. Granted, there were other ways of increasing damage output, but the actual damage stayed more or less the same.

In any case, I think one of the main issues here is how FAST things are allowed to happen now. The animation cancelling is one aspect of it, the general acceleration of the animations and activations is another. Snipe used to be a long pull of the bow and a release, followed by a long pull again. Now, it's practically a machinegun.

This game REALLY needs to rein in the dps at the top end. In my over 40 years of gaming, I've seen this kind of power creep utterly destroy games, more than once. I really don't want to see it happen to ESO.

Amottica

While I have only been playing ESO for a couple of months I have been playing MMORPGs for years. That is where my comments come from.

Early on I found that ESO already has a mentoring system. It is very similar to the mentoring systems I have found in other MMORPGs. One key requirement for using the mentoring system is wanting to use it so you can seek it out. Guilds have always been a great source of information and learning/improving in one's gameplay.

I also do not understand what the minimum DPS requirement for a dungeon comes from. I had heard ESO does not have enrage timers. If there are no enrage timers how is a minimum DPS determined (or did I hear wrong)?

BejaProphet

Merforum wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

The single best thing that increases DPS in any dungeon is a good tank. At a minimum a tank that holds boss inside all the group aoes will increase group DPS more than anything. As a bonus if the tank can pull everything into a pile, DPS is off the charts.

I would rather have 2 10K DPS, plus tank/healer doing about 10K for 30K group DPS in all fights rather than the fake tank who can maybe to 100K on a dummy but does less than 10K in a real fight because he is running around the room kiting the boss and/or the rest of the team running around the room kill everything one by one.

One big problem I see lately is fake tank or any role where 1 dude is just running through thinking every dungeon is just like the XP grind locations. But doesn't realize running pat 10 mobs, with LA to pull them in, and hoping they will all pile up in a corner for you, DOES NOT WORK in group dungeons.

There are places where you can strategically make good piles of enemies but not more than about 10-15 at a time. Trying to pile up 40 adds across several rooms only spreads them out and makes it much harder for the team because you have to chase them and kill one or two at a time.

I would argue that a good tank is a multiplier to the group damage. Usually a great tank does wonders for a group’s damage. But it is possible for the damage dealers to be so bad that a classical “tank” is no longer what is needed.

Let’s imagine that a great support oriented tank boosts group out put by 70%

Well in most groups that is going to be the way to go. But what if the combined team damage is 16k? There just isn’t anything there to multiply! Suddenly a tank that can do 20k damage is actually what they need.

I have done 100s of runs on pug normal and no matter what if I am tank and able to hold boss/pile adds the DPS is fine, it is only when people start running ahead and not letting me set it up that DPS goes way down, with good or bad DPS it is same.

BTW I use grth, azureblight, leeching, caltrops, vateshran ice staff back bar, crushing enchant, I do 8K single target DPS and as high as 78K DPS in huge mobs. With this setup anyone can do all job of tank plus enough damage to do all normals. On Vet usually just change to bloodspawn helm and can do most content too.

I actually like using healer better cause it is just so much easier but 75+% there is a terrible tank that makes every run a mess. A good tank makes everyone's job super easy, just let tank put boss somewhere, turn him away from group, pile up some adds, then rest of team can stand behind pile and do their rotation, and healer can stand right behind them healing occasionally and doing damage.

BTW DPS and Healer should stay as close to pile as possible because really only time tank will lose taunt is during mechanics that have boss jump to another player and that either wont happen or is easy to retaunt if everyone is close by. Tip of day.:)

BTW when I'm healer I usually do 10K DPS easy plus all healing/shielding and some team buffs.

I don’t run on normal. My comments had vet in mind, I probably should have specified that. But I don’t think there are really any DPS standard for normal. Where else are people going to learn?

Agenericname

Amottica wrote: »

While I have only been playing ESO for a couple of months I have been playing MMORPGs for years. That is where my comments come from.

Early on I found that ESO already has a mentoring system. It is very similar to the mentoring systems I have found in other MMORPGs. One key requirement for using the mentoring system is wanting to use it so you can seek it out. Guilds have always been a great source of information and learning/improving in one's gameplay.

I also do not understand what the minimum DPS requirement for a dungeon comes from. I had heard ESO does not have enrage timers. If there are no enrage timers how is a minimum DPS determined (or did I hear wrong)?

There are no enrage mechanics the way WoW has, that's part of the reason why you see some disagreement on what the acceptable minimum is.

There are actual DPS checks though, even those can be a little situational in terms of how much you need, but you will die if you not meet the requirement. Vet Bloodroot Forge hard Mode for example, the boss(es) will cause lava to fill up the room. If you do not kill them before you run out of real estate, you will die. On non-HM there are altars to extinguish the lava, on HM they arent there.

In Scale Caller Peak there are Simulacrums during the final boss fight. They will freeze you causing steady damage and the damage will overcome the groups ability to heal through it, or you will simply freeze and die. They are fairly low health, but a DPS check none-the-less.

Other fights, that technically wouldn't be a true DPS check, like Mylene in Moon Hunter keep, are nice to have damage, even if you chose to play the mechanics. The boss herself doesn't need much damage, but her adds can be dangerous, so taking them down quickly ensures the chances of the group's survival.

The better your group's ability to survive the mechanics, the less damage you truly need, except in cases where there is a real DPS check. Its a bit of a sliding scale and why you see some disparity in the numbers.

Amottica

Agenericname wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

While I have only been playing ESO for a couple of months I have been playing MMORPGs for years. That is where my comments come from.

Early on I found that ESO already has a mentoring system. It is very similar to the mentoring systems I have found in other MMORPGs. One key requirement for using the mentoring system is wanting to use it so you can seek it out. Guilds have always been a great source of information and learning/improving in one's gameplay.

I also do not understand what the minimum DPS requirement for a dungeon comes from. I had heard ESO does not have enrage timers. If there are no enrage timers how is a minimum DPS determined (or did I hear wrong)?

There are no enrage mechanics the way WoW has, that's part of the reason why you see some disagreement on what the acceptable minimum is.

There are actual DPS checks though, even those can be a little situational in terms of how much you need, but you will die if you not meet the requirement. Vet Bloodroot Forge hard Mode for example, the boss(es) will cause lava to fill up the room. If you do not kill them before you run out of real estate, you will die. On non-HM there are altars to extinguish the lava, on HM they arent there.

In Scale Caller Peak there are Simulacrums during the final boss fight. They will freeze you causing steady damage and the damage will overcome the groups ability to heal through it, or you will simply freeze and die. They are fairly low health, but a DPS check none-the-less.

Other fights, that technically wouldn't be a true DPS check, like Mylene in Moon Hunter keep, are nice to have damage, even if you chose to play the mechanics. The boss herself doesn't need much damage, but her adds can be dangerous, so taking them down quickly ensures the chances of the group's survival.

There better your group's ability to survive the mechanics, the less damage you truly need, except in cases where there is a real DPS check. Its a bit of a sliding scale and why you see some disparity in the numbers.

Ok, thanks.

So there are some fights that have some virtual enrage other than the stale boss damage increases significantly, though it seems to be very limited.

As for the benefits of the group being able to put out more damage, that has been a benefit in most fights for most MMORPGs, and is why some guilds and raid groups have different requirements which is very much personal to that group. However, I have seen in other games that my DPS on a static test dummy (which seems we have them in ESO) can be quite different than my damage in an actual fight where I need to move, change targets, or experience different phases. Not sure how a game would figure out how much damage a player can do since one player will be able to keep their damage up higher in a real fight than another player. This tends to come down to other factors like the player's skill and knowledge of the fight.

Just my thoughts.