My thoughts on DPS in this game PvE

ZOS_GregoryV

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Daraklus

A question comes to mind: What is optimal DPS, exactly, and what should be the minimum? I ask because I've been on the receiving end and have been witness to people getting the kind of treatment that could be described as "Really unpleasant" from people who consider themselves as arbiters of who may or may not complete a dungeon because "Not enough DPS, kick plus".

I like to think of it like this: So long as the enemy is being killed and you aren't a complete lemon getting killed constantly, DPS shouldn't be a big deal. I often hear people say they don't want to "Do a dungeon for 5 hours" which is an exagerration on their part if you ask me, and honestly rather telling on their fortitude. Some of the best memories I had were of doing a dungeon where no one was willing to give up and we persevered to the end. I still carry Meridia's Blessing with pride knowing I got it through blood, sweat and tears with a group that did not give up.

That being said, it would always be nice to get new blood into the mix. However I have noticed that it is not all that simple given how... The playstyle is conducted and in order to really shine you gotta find the proper gear set combination to do it. And a helping hand does also go quite a long way in encouraging people to stick to it, rather than scold them for going into a dungeon "Unprepared" while they're therr looking for a specific set or Monster helmet.

Oh, and also don't be a jerk while offering advice. There have been many instances where I was being promised a build that would make me go from 20k DPS to 60-70k, but it came from some pretty disrespectful individuals so these tutorings never really got anywhere far.

AyaDark wrote: »

Do damage is not hard - it is easy to do 30+ on 2 buttons.

People just want play META - because META is the best - so they do 18 k with pain, but do not do 30+ with 2 buttons - because it is not "best in slot"

If that were true, then there wouldn't be so much discourse over DPS and why people aren't doing enough DPS in dungeons.

But please, do share your insight on how you can achieve to do 30k DPS with only two buttons. Until then I will play my keys like a piano in order to do my 20 odd thousand DPS.

BlueRaven

Just to point out the obvious:

If there was some artificial dps check to enter some dungeons, there will be less players running those dungeons.

If a player feels they can't get past the dps check, they might not buy the dungeon, and may not buy future dungeons.

Selling fewer dungeons is not in Zos's best interest, nor is it in the players best interest.

••••

I don't know what the solution for this "problem" is, but I wonder if a good solution actually exists.

Zos wants to appeal to the masses in their dungeon content to keep the sales of dungeons strong. At the same time they went to make hard dungeons to appeal to the top end players.

So we can't have it both ways, we can't have dungeons that casual players will buy AND also be excluded from using. If they are paying for it, there is a good chance they want to use it.

Every mmo on the market is dominated by casual players, this conversation about "teaching" players how to play is happening in WOW, etc. It's not going to happen. The vast majority of players don't want to learn the "skills" to play a video game, they just want to have fun.

I think the ONLY way to solve this problem is for ZOS to identify the harder dungeons and take them off of the LFG rotation. This way only premade groups can go in there, treat them like trials.

OR at least make a preference that players need to click to turn the dungeon "on" for LFG. This way newer or inexperienced players have to make a conscious effort to get in the queue for the harder dungeons.

Kurat

Daraklus wrote: »

But please, do share your insight on how you can achieve to do 30k DPS with only two buttons. Until then I will play my keys like a piano in order to do my 20 odd thousand DPS.

Stamplar. Any race, Deadly strike and Rele.
Just spam jabs and light attack between. Theres your 2 buttons. You'll get 30k on non trial dummy and 50-60k on 21 mil. Cant be any easier, no skill required.

Everest_Lionheart

Kurat wrote: »

Daraklus wrote: »

But please, do share your insight on how you can achieve to do 30k DPS with only two buttons. Until then I will play my keys like a piano in order to do my 20 odd thousand DPS.

Stamplar. Any race, Deadly strike and Rele.
Just spam jabs and light attack between. Theres your 2 buttons. You'll get 30k on non trial dummy and 50-60k on 21 mil. Cant be any easier, no skill required.

The skill required to grind FG up to 10 and complete maelstrom on normal which isn’t much. I can’t bring myself to play this class after learning MagDK, Magcro and Magblade. No challenge to it at all.

Daraklus

Kurat wrote: »

Daraklus wrote: »

But please, do share your insight on how you can achieve to do 30k DPS with only two buttons. Until then I will play my keys like a piano in order to do my 20 odd thousand DPS.

Stamplar. Any race, Deadly strike and Rele.
Just spam jabs and light attack between. Theres your 2 buttons. You'll get 30k on non trial dummy and 50-60k on 21 mil. Cant be any easier, no skill required.

I've tried playing Templar a couple of times in my time of playing this game, but I never really gravitated towards the class.

Does it have to be a Stamina Templar? And it doesn't help much when I am someone who has no real interest in doing Trials and being told that one set from this "Easy 30k DPS" strategy involves having to go into one.

LashanW

Merforum wrote: »

they have exploits like cancelling animation (which I still believe might be causing lag) that gives people extra amounts of damage is shorter windows of time than the game intended.

If by "cancelling animations" you mean light attack weaving then that is not an exploit. Devs don't consider it an exploit anymore (devs gets to decide what things are intended by the game, not players) and have introduced several sets and even skills (psijic spammable, stam sorc class spammable) that promotes LA weaving. Hell there's even an in-game hint about LA weaving as a tip in leveling up reward screen.

Merforum wrote: »

The problem I have with this game that is different than other games is that in order to get highest performance it isn't about achieving levels, gear, builds, it comes down to whoever smashed buttons the fastest. I have arthritis so just doing basic level stuff is painful already, trying to go beyond my current level physically not likely without more permanent damage.

People like to call this skill and I can give people credit for doing something physical to get the edge, but the problem is that the difference between mashing the buttons super fast and at a medium pace is off the charts, literally like 20-30K to 90-100K. That is too extreme IMO. Doing something maybe half as fast as other, should not be 4-5X better, it should at most be 2X better.

@Merforum
One reason why some players can't do high dps is due to misconceptions like yours. Biggest factor for dps is using a good skill rotation and a build that makes sense. LA weaving and speeding up the rotation helps you get to the top but it's not the foundation. And you are still limited by the global cooldown of 1 second. Button mashing as fast as you can will lead to dps loss because the game will start to ignore your inputs (especially light attack inputs). LA weaving and speeding up your rotation is never gonna triple your dps (unless you are doing something silly like firing one skill in the morning and the next one in the evening).

You don't have to believe me ofc, I can provide proof. I have done several test parses against trial dummy with light/heavy attacks completely disabled, with very low rate of light attacks (one light attack per 10 seconds) and even one with zero CP. Screenshots are a bit outdated as they were from last patch tho. All these parses were 60k+ on trial dummy. Gear and rotation were kept the same on my magsorc. My best parses from last patch were 100k-105k.

Daraklus

LashanW wrote: »

One reason why some players can't do high dps is due to misconceptions like yours. Biggest factor for dps is using a good skill rotation and a build that makes sense. LA weaving and speeding up the rotation helps you get to the top but it's not the foundation. And you are still limited by the global cooldown of 1 second. Button mashing as fast as you can will lead to dps loss because the game will start to ignore your inputs (especially light attack inputs).

That may be, but don't try to deny that there are some irregularities happening with a player-to-player basis. I often tried to mimic certain builds or tried doing the things people say on the forums here in order to achieve big deeps, but it always either results in minimal gains or just flat out worse performance.

One time I saw someone talk about doing 20k just by doing heavy attacks. I saw I had a similar set of gear as he did and tried my luck. Needless to say the skeleton laughed at me when I tried utilizing this player's expertise.

That and you still have to play your abilities like a piano. At least I often have to when dealing with ten different things on the screen.

You don't have to believe me ofc, I can provide proof. I have done several test parses against trial dummy with light/heavy attacks completely disabled, with very low rate of light attacks (one light attack per 10 seconds) and even one with zero CP. Screenshots are a bit outdated as they were from last patch tho. All these parses were 60k+ on trial dummy. Gear and rotation were kept the same on my magsorc. My best parses from last patch were 100k-105k.

Thank you for confirming that gear and class are the thing that makes or breaks your DPS performance. Now I can take this post and show it to people who said that gear isn't what makes a player shine in damage output.

AyaDark

Daraklus wrote: »

A question comes to mind: What is optimal DPS, exactly, and what should be the minimum? I ask because I've been on the receiving end and have been witness to people getting the kind of treatment that could be described as "Really unpleasant" from people who consider themselves as arbiters of who may or may not complete a dungeon because "Not enough DPS, kick plus".

I like to think of it like this: So long as the enemy is being killed and you aren't a complete lemon getting killed constantly, DPS shouldn't be a big deal. I often hear people say they don't want to "Do a dungeon for 5 hours" which is an exagerration on their part if you ask me, and honestly rather telling on their fortitude. Some of the best memories I had were of doing a dungeon where no one was willing to give up and we persevered to the end. I still carry Meridia's Blessing with pride knowing I got it through blood, sweat and tears with a group that did not give up.

That being said, it would always be nice to get new blood into the mix. However I have noticed that it is not all that simple given how... The playstyle is conducted and in order to really shine you gotta find the proper gear set combination to do it. And a helping hand does also go quite a long way in encouraging people to stick to it, rather than scold them for going into a dungeon "Unprepared" while they're therr looking for a specific set or Monster helmet.

Oh, and also don't be a jerk while offering advice. There have been many instances where I was being promised a build that would make me go from 20k DPS to 60-70k, but it came from some pretty disrespectful individuals so these tutorings never really got anywhere far.

AyaDark wrote: »

Do damage is not hard - it is easy to do 30+ on 2 buttons.

People just want play META - because META is the best - so they do 18 k with pain, but do not do 30+ with 2 buttons - because it is not "best in slot"

If that were true, then there wouldn't be so much discourse over DPS and why people aren't doing enough DPS in dungeons.

But please, do share your insight on how you can achieve to do 30k DPS with only two buttons. Until then I will play my keys like a piano in order to do my 20 odd thousand DPS.

OK - just simple example of how builds calculated:

You have 14 slots - so 2 full set and 2 2 part sets.

Lets take as example :
Relequin + any proc set with 3 k DPS + Maelstorm bow and monster set with 2 k DPS like Stormfist.

All you do is:

Mailstorm bow arrows rain (3 k DPS) - than swap panel and do only light attacks. LA hit for 3 K. But you can strike it 15 times per 10 seconds so it can give 5 k dps.

LA activates enchant on main bar that hit 2-3k dps (2 k damage + poison)
Bow arrows rain on back bar activates enchant that hit 2-3k dps (2 k damage + poison)

Just as example.

So you get 3k+3k+3k+5k - 14 k DPS already.

+ 3 k from relequin + 2 K from storm fist + 3 k from one more proc set.

22 k already.

A lot of it can crit - so even more damage + you can use passive skills that buff damage.

Simple logick.

As example not long time ago i did build that do 42k+ on:

Mailstorm bow arrows rain / pannel swap - than LA snipe while arrows rain works.That is all you need to press to get 40 k on 1000+ CP.

LashanW

Daraklus wrote: »

Thank you for confirming that gear and class are the thing that makes or breaks your DPS performance. Now I can take this post and show it to people who said that gear isn't what makes a player shine in damage output.

Do show my post as it is. Perhaps whoever reads it will not ignore the term "rotation" like you did. Rotation is the choice of skills and the order of using them. And yes gear matters. You will not do high dps by wearing Mighty Chudan, Adept Rider and BeeKeeper sets for example.

Daraklus wrote: »

you still have to play your abilities like a piano. At least I often have to when dealing with ten different things on the screen.

Agreed with this part, proper LA weaving is pressing the buttons in a nice consistent rhythm. And yeah some classes have more complex rotations than others. MagBlade rotation vs StamPlar rotation for example. I much prefer simpler rotations like pet sorc compared to complex rotations like MagCro DoT rotation. Yikes that one is way too many things to keep track of.

Viewsfrom6ix

@ThorianB

You're throwing the term "casual" and "adapt" a lot here. From my perspective, I'm a "casual" player. I run dungeons at a medium speed. I slow down if someone is doing quest and "adapt" by speeding up if someone is rushing through the dungeon. But I certainly don't have the luxury of free time to spend 2 hours learning the mechanics of a boss that the group keeps wiping at. After a couple wipes, I would just look up the mechanics which you claim "casuals" don't do.

Just because someone practiced on a dummy or looked up mechanics that doesn't mean there is no challenge or they skip the learning process. Everyone does it differently.

You play how you want, but don't be claiming all "casuals" play like how you do.

Merforum

LashanW wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

they have exploits like cancelling animation (which I still believe might be causing lag) that gives people extra amounts of damage is shorter windows of time than the game intended.

If by "cancelling animations" you mean light attack weaving then that is not an exploit. Devs don't consider it an exploit anymore (devs gets to decide what things are intended by the game, not players) and have introduced several sets and even skills (psijic spammable, stam sorc class spammable) that promotes LA weaving. Hell there's even an in-game hint about LA weaving as a tip in leveling up reward screen.

Merforum wrote: »

The problem I have with this game that is different than other games is that in order to get highest performance it isn't about achieving levels, gear, builds, it comes down to whoever smashed buttons the fastest. I have arthritis so just doing basic level stuff is painful already, trying to go beyond my current level physically not likely without more permanent damage.

People like to call this skill and I can give people credit for doing something physical to get the edge, but the problem is that the difference between mashing the buttons super fast and at a medium pace is off the charts, literally like 20-30K to 90-100K. That is too extreme IMO. Doing something maybe half as fast as other, should not be 4-5X better, it should at most be 2X better.

@Merforum
One reason why some players can't do high dps is due to misconceptions like yours. Biggest factor for dps is using a good skill rotation and a build that makes sense. LA weaving and speeding up the rotation helps you get to the top but it's not the foundation. And you are still limited by the global cooldown of 1 second. Button mashing as fast as you can will lead to dps loss because the game will start to ignore your inputs (especially light attack inputs). LA weaving and speeding up your rotation is never gonna triple your dps (unless you are doing something silly like firing one skill in the morning and the next one in the evening).

You don't have to believe me ofc, I can provide proof. I have done several test parses against trial dummy with light/heavy attacks completely disabled, with very low rate of light attacks (one light attack per 10 seconds) and even one with zero CP. Screenshots are a bit outdated as they were from last patch tho. All these parses were 60k+ on trial dummy. Gear and rotation were kept the same on my magsorc. My best parses from last patch were 100k-105k.

Just because ZOS doesn't fix something for a long time, does NOT mean it isn't an exploit. And if it was intended behavior why does it take so much practice to do just right. And why does it have to be in between each skill, why not 5 LA in a row giving the same output. I am done talking about this exploit, which everyone knows is an exploit, but are counting on ZOS to never fix, which has worked for now but ZOS also knows it is an exploit and just 1 of the many ways people are able to outperform at the top.

Also don't put words in my mouth, I am not talking about smashing buttons FAST ONLY, but in a certain order. One problem is that aoes and dots don't have longer cooldown so once people start a 'rotation' those effects are constantly on. And yes this requires doing the same button mashing in the particular order OVER and OVER. Physically I have a problem with mashing buttons that quickly/continuously but even when I have done it, it is so boring and NOT SKILLFUL, but does give way more damage. ZOS could fix that by giving all the aoes/dots long CDs for instance if 'wall' lasts 10 sec, it should have 15 s CD that way the best you could do is have 10 sec up 5 sec down, instead of 100% up. That would reduce DPS too.

Most people play the game to have fun, NOT TO HAVE ANOTHER JOB. Most people are perfectly happy with their ability to play the game and are complete sick and tired of being insulted and belittled on a daily basis.

Viewsfrom6ix

@Merforum

I don't get it. Are you saying that because you can't do it and it is boring to you, it is an exploit and should be changed?

Merforum wrote: »

And if it was intended behavior why does it take so much practice to do just right.

Are you also saying intended behaviour should just come naturally in games and not require practice? I guess professional gamers that make a living from it and are just exploiting the game because they practiced so much.

Merforum wrote: »

Just because ZOS doesn't fix something for a long time, does NOT mean it isn't an exploit

I suggest you understand what a software exploit means in a video game first before making statements like that.

In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, speed or level design etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not approved by the game's designers.

Goregrinder

Viewsfrom6ix wrote: »

@Merforum

I don't get it. Are you saying that because you can't do it and it is boring to you, it is an exploit and should be changed?

Merforum wrote: »

And if it was intended behavior why does it take so much practice to do just right.

Are you also saying intended behaviour should just come naturally in games and not require practice? I guess professional gamers that make a living from it and are just exploiting the game because they practiced so much.

Merforum wrote: »

Just because ZOS doesn't fix something for a long time, does NOT mean it isn't an exploit

I suggest you understand what a software exploit means in a video game first before making statements like that.

In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, speed or level design etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not approved by the game's designers.

That's exactly what he is saying. He has posted that same response in other threads, and always refers to LA weaving and animation cancelling as an exploit. Even though ZOS has never referred to it as an exploit and never mentioned that they intend to change it.

The simple truth is, he is bad at doing it, doesn't like it (no one has to tbh), therefore the game should be change to meet his standards, that way he doesn't have to work as hard for the same level of success.

BejaProphet

Doesn’t one of the leveling tips tell you to light weave? I might be remembering wrong but if it does then that proves it is not exploit.

LashanW

BejaProphet wrote: »

Doesn’t one of the leveling tips tell you to light weave? I might be remembering wrong but if it does then that proves it is not exploit.

Your memory is right There's a screenshot in this thread of it,
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/396694/stop-claiming-that-light-attack-weaving-is-an-exploit/p1

Smitch_59

I always thought that animation cancelling was originally a bug that was retained and renamed as a feature.

BejaProphet

LashanW wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

Doesn’t one of the leveling tips tell you to light weave? I might be remembering wrong but if it does then that proves it is not exploit.

Your memory is right There's a screenshot in this thread of it,
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/396694/stop-claiming-that-light-attack-weaving-is-an-exploit/p1

Then how does that not settle the exploit accusation? 🤔

Sanguinor2

BejaProphet wrote: »

Then how does that not settle the exploit accusation? 🤔

Because you cant teach people what they dont want to know. We humans are very good at dismissing all logic and facts if they oppose what we believe to be right.

BlueRaven

The light attack weaving was not intentional, I believe, but they could not figure out a way of “fixing it”. So instead of it being a bug to fix, they just embraced it.
So it is a bug, they turned into standard combat practice.

Personally I don’t like it, but its probably here to stay.

etchedpixels

Daraklus wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Daraklus wrote: »

But please, do share your insight on how you can achieve to do 30k DPS with only two buttons. Until then I will play my keys like a piano in order to do my 20 odd thousand DPS.

Stamplar. Any race, Deadly strike and Rele.
Just spam jabs and light attack between. Theres your 2 buttons. You'll get 30k on non trial dummy and 50-60k on 21 mil. Cant be any easier, no skill required.

I've tried playing Templar a couple of times in my time of playing this game, but I never really gravitated towards the class.

Does it have to be a Stamina Templar? And it doesn't help much when I am someone who has no real interest in doing Trials and being told that one set from this "Easy 30k DPS" strategy involves having to go into one.

Stamplar seems to be the easiest to run. You don't need relequen though. There are plenty of easy sets that give similar performance at least in the real world, and definitely solo where you can sensibly run Dreugh King Slayer jewellery and weapons to get permanent major brutality without having to press a skill.

With attention to penetration and CP in the right places you can get over 30K on a two button templar, a bit more if you don't mind pressing a third button once every 20 seconds or so. One more button gets you more sustain and heals which isn't relevant dummy bashing but does matter in the game proper. In truth even the '2 button templar' is a 3 button templar for practical use.

Right now my 3 skill templar has:

7 medium armour divines
Lover mundus
Defiler/Deadly/Selene's
2H maul or sword, bow on back bar (maul for solo or pvp to get the passive penetration bonus)
2 infused stam regen rings, one bloodthirsty triune (probably should be two bloodthirsty)

front bar is:
circle of protection (fighters guild bonus, minor protection, minor endurance comes form repentance anyway)
camouflaged hunter (fighters guild bonus, some minor berserk, major savagery already comes from jabs)
biting jabs (major savagery)
repentance (minor fortitude, minor endurance, minor intellect and of course heals/restores when pressed)
rally (major brutality)
flawless dawnbreaker (fighters guild bonus, extra weapon damage when used)

back bar has other stuff that's optional for a bit more of a boost (potl, heals, bow, razor caltrops, warhorn) and rarely gets used in most situations and can be ignored.

If you want to go down to the 2 skill solo option (jabs & heal button) you can swap rally for another fighters guild skill and pick something like dreugh king slayer jewellery/weapons (Fungal 1 so real easy to get) to get permanent major brutality. I run rally/defiler to get the stuns and the like but dreugh king lets you slot trap beast so another fighters guild bonus (3%) and you could use it to get minor force (10% crit damage)

There are a ton of these builds on the internet, all based on the same basic idea - stack as many passive damage multipliers and buffs as possible on the front bar and gear choice.

Yet people keep moaning that templar got nerfed 8)

You can do similar things with magicka builds but they don't come out quite so well on 2 skills. The jabs heal but they don't hit as hard or give you the key buffs you need, and the mages guild skills don't have the same damage boost passives that fighters guild does. Thus you can put magelight on the bar as with camouflaged hunter, but you need to actually cast degeneration (so it's akin to using rally on stamina). One bar yes - one skill no.