Roaming World Bosses

ThorianB · April 2021

Iluvrien wrote: »

finehair wrote: »

That would add some spice to zones.
Before one tamriel, when there were leveled zones and mobs it was dangerous to run around, slaying mammoths and eating sabrecats for breakfast wasn't a thing for a new player back then.
I remember going to riften directly without doing much of the starter zone quests and not leveling enough. After I got murdered by sabrecats at the entrance to the zone, I somehow managed to run past them in ghost form. Then got killed by bunch of skeletons over and over again.
As I wasn't meant to be in that zone at that level, that's what happens.

Now you can press randomize on character screen and just go on a giant killing spree in riften with the iron greatsword you're given at the start.

Gotta add some danger to the world.

But as you point out, the danger was there and then ZOS removed it.

All of the following is my opinion (based on playing continuously since the join date in my profile), I assert none of it as being objectively true...

That said, I see the the problem as being twofold:
ESO was a theme park rather than and open world that assigned challenge on the zone level rather than feature level.

One Tamriel homogenized the whole of overland with level scaling.

ESO as a theme park...
This was an initial design problem. The decision to say that zones had a specific level range (e.g. Stonefalls for levels 5-15) caused several issues. If people wanted more of a challenge, they could go to higher level zones, but would quickly outlevel any on-level zone content and jumping ahead would break the linear flow of the narrative. It also caused issues for grouping with friends to take on quests.

One Tamriel...
Imposing a single level of challenge to the whole of overland was... less than optimal. This was the chance ZOS had to fix the problems caused by the initial design of ESO as a theme park. We got Tamriel-wide free movement (good) and cross alliance/level grouping (also good). What we also got as an enforced, uniform level of challenge for the whole of overland with very little variation (atrocious).

We went from zone level challenge setting, to play-style (PvE-casual, PvE-endgame, PvP etc.) level challenge setting. I don't think this was a positive. At all. In any way.

My solution: Set challenge by feature, not by zone or play-style.

For example, we could use the taxonomy that UESP present to us for Stonefalls and remember to modify for narrative.
Cities - Low to medium

Settlements - Medium

Farms and Plantations - Medium

Caves, Ruins and Mines - Medium to High

Battlefields, Cemeteries and Crypts - Medium to High

Dungeons (Delves, Public Delves) - Low to High

Group Bosses - High

Dolmens - High

If we say that Low is 0-25 Medium is 25-50, and High is anything that is CP 1+ (there could be more sub-divisions here) then a single zone could contain content to challenge anyone. This results in a greater sense of danger earlier in the game, the desire to return to early zones to beat content you couldn't before (meaning a mix of player levels in zones), and it means that later overland zones would not be locked to a specific, homogenous challenge level, and could contain a few features that are Very Hard Indeed.

This idea retains One Tamriel's freedom of movement as there may not be enough on-level content in a single zone for someone to level up... meaning they would be encouraged to travel across Tamriel experiencing later (and earlier) zones in increasing depth as they levelled. It also removes the problem of all overland everywhere being too easy, while providing enough early-level content that even total newcomers to MMOs should be happy.

Of course, ZOS will never ever do it.

While i still think that their should be a vet mirror image of tamriel that you can portal between it and normal, i think normal should have something like this as well. Just because its level anywhere and play with your friends of any level doesn't mean everything should be easy. The only areas that are harder, for a newbie, in any zone except craglorn, are public dungeons and world bosses. Public dungeons aren't that much harder and often have other players in them. Base game world bosses can be hit or miss on people doing them but they could do something like add undaunted quests for them, so more people do them.

I think ZOS kind of went from one extreme to the other and left out everyone in the middle. Content is either a snoozefest solo( and even worse with a friend) or it has raid level mechanics with insane amounts of dps and one shot abilities. There is no middle normal difficulty. You go from LOLeasy to advanced to expert.

That is one that causes the big skill level gap in this game. The only way to really improve, for most people, from loleasy to advanced content such as more recent DLCs is to spend time teaching themselves without actually playing the game. If players have to practice and teach themselves to take on harder content rather than done naturally as content progression then that is major flaw in the game. This is the only RPG i have played in which there was such a huge gap in skills needed going from one content to another that almost required studying and practice sessions just so you don't look like you just started playing 20 minutes ago.

oregonrob · April 2021

"I think ZOS kind of went from one extreme to the other and left out everyone in the middle. Content is either a snoozefest solo( and even worse with a friend) or it has raid level mechanics with insane amounts of dps and one shot abilities. There is no middle normal difficulty. You go from LOLeasy to advanced to expert." ThorianB

This is the first critique of ESO Overland that has promise. It is not a backdoor to trying to make Overland more challenging to veterans like the roaming World Boss concept is.

There needs to be a midlevel area that helps develop players without them getting easily trashed. I expect veteran players might still find this too easy, but maybe there needs to be an Insane level in DLC dungeons so veterans have a challenge.

Whatever goes in place, it does need to take into consideration that probably a majority of players play solo, a majority of the time. The group content, as it is, is sufficient.

ad4mss · April 2021

This is the first critique of ESO Overland that has promise. It is not a backdoor to trying to make Overland more challenging to veterans like the roaming World Boss concept is.

There needs to be a midlevel area that helps develop players without them getting easily trashed. I expect veteran players might still find this too easy, but maybe there needs to be an Insane level in DLC dungeons so veterans have a challenge.

Whatever goes in place, it does need to take into consideration that probably a majority of players play solo, a majority of the time. The group content, as it is, is sufficient.

Maybe this is where death penalties should come in? If we are divided into those who don't agree with roaming bosses/harder Overland stuff and these players who would like to have such "improvement", it would be kinda solution to make this game little bit more challenging.

Vlad9425 · April 2021

It’s an interesting idea on paper but in practice this would just be annoying. It also depends on how these would get implemented like will we see an icon warning us that a boss is wandering about in the area or are we just gonna get one shot when we’re unaware of their presence when minding our own business in areas.

Jaraal · April 2021

phantasmalD wrote: »

Imperial City has roming bosses. It kinda works there but not something I'd like to see everywhere.

The roaming world bosses in the districts and the sewers is part of what makes those areas so much fun. I would love to see more of that dynamic in the game.

Diminish · April 2021

Roaming world bosses done right could be a lot of fun. I personally feel that there should be locations that you should not go to at certain levels... Sort of like pre 1 Tamriel, but even that wasn't very fleshed out; they really should have improved upon that concept if you ask me. If you as a level 10 go to an area that is clearly marked for higher level characters, and you die, that is on you. Bosses should be harder and rewards should be better in higher level areas as well. There should be more rare mats, motifs, etc. in these zones... a "bigger risk, bigger reward" type of thing.

Right now, I don't even do overland content... at all... because it is extremely boring. Perhaps I am the outlier, since I also feel like all this balance nonsense with races, classes, gear, etc. is more of a negative for the game than a positive. People should pick a race that complements their class. Harder to obtain gear should exist, and it should be better (we sort of have that with perfected versions, but ultimately perfected vs non-perfected is hardly noticeable in terms of combat effectiveness). In the current state of the game they are trying to make everything the same, where in the end, player choice is not going to mean anything. It's kind of sad, because I feel like ZOS caters more to new/casual players, and making everything accessible to them (which is fine for casual players), but they really lack in providing a similar experience to end-game seeking players, players who want a challenge, and even PvP players with lack of content. I feel like it is a lost opportunity for them to be honest. It is what it is though. Personally, I will just continue my typical routine of playing for a couple months before getting bored, take a 10+ month break, and hope future content provides some interesting changes. Either it will, or eventually the annual break from the game will likely become permanent as new games are released in the same genre.

Diminish · April 2021

Seraphayel wrote: »

I do not agree that overland should be as easy as possible so that everyone, even the most unskilled player can faceroll it. Challenge is part of a roleplaying game. Not every zone has to be casual friendly. Heck, make 1/3 of the zone harder, with harder enemies etc. - casuals don’t have to go there alone, it’s easy as that.

The risk of failure isn’t fun, but the lack of risk isn’t either.

Couldn't agree more.

Diminish · April 2021

Vlad9425 wrote: »

It’s an interesting idea on paper but in practice this would just be annoying. It also depends on how these would get implemented like will we see an icon warning us that a boss is wandering about in the area or are we just gonna get one shot when we’re unaware of their presence when minding our own business in areas.

I'm sure within about 10 hours of something like this going live, most of the roaming bosses pathing would be known, and documented. ZoS could even put notes up around areas that have tougher bosses roaming to "warn" players of their existence in an area. They already put 15 notes up around towns as it is for various quests... why not add a few more?

Diminish · April 2021

Olauron wrote: »

Any forced content is trash content. Stationary world bosses are endurable enough due to them being avoidable. Roaming world bosses would simply disrupt players doing something else. It is always bad idea to prevent players from doing what they like and want by throwing into their faces content they don't like or don't want.

So don't go to the areas in the zone that having a roaming world boss. It is not like every world boss in every zone is going to be pathing every inch of every zone.

Iccotak · April 2021

ThorianB wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

finehair wrote: »

That would add some spice to zones.
Before one tamriel, when there were leveled zones and mobs it was dangerous to run around, slaying mammoths and eating sabrecats for breakfast wasn't a thing for a new player back then.
I remember going to riften directly without doing much of the starter zone quests and not leveling enough. After I got murdered by sabrecats at the entrance to the zone, I somehow managed to run past them in ghost form. Then got killed by bunch of skeletons over and over again.
As I wasn't meant to be in that zone at that level, that's what happens.

Now you can press randomize on character screen and just go on a giant killing spree in riften with the iron greatsword you're given at the start.

Gotta add some danger to the world.

But as you point out, the danger was there and then ZOS removed it.

All of the following is my opinion (based on playing continuously since the join date in my profile), I assert none of it as being objectively true...

That said, I see the the problem as being twofold:
ESO was a theme park rather than and open world that assigned challenge on the zone level rather than feature level.

One Tamriel homogenized the whole of overland with level scaling.

ESO as a theme park...
This was an initial design problem. The decision to say that zones had a specific level range (e.g. Stonefalls for levels 5-15) caused several issues. If people wanted more of a challenge, they could go to higher level zones, but would quickly outlevel any on-level zone content and jumping ahead would break the linear flow of the narrative. It also caused issues for grouping with friends to take on quests.

One Tamriel...
Imposing a single level of challenge to the whole of overland was... less than optimal. This was the chance ZOS had to fix the problems caused by the initial design of ESO as a theme park. We got Tamriel-wide free movement (good) and cross alliance/level grouping (also good). What we also got as an enforced, uniform level of challenge for the whole of overland with very little variation (atrocious).

We went from zone level challenge setting, to play-style (PvE-casual, PvE-endgame, PvP etc.) level challenge setting. I don't think this was a positive. At all. In any way.

My solution: Set challenge by feature, not by zone or play-style.

For example, we could use the taxonomy that UESP present to us for Stonefalls and remember to modify for narrative.
Cities - Low to medium

Settlements - Medium

Farms and Plantations - Medium

Caves, Ruins and Mines - Medium to High

Battlefields, Cemeteries and Crypts - Medium to High

Dungeons (Delves, Public Delves) - Low to High

Group Bosses - High

Dolmens - High

If we say that Low is 0-25 Medium is 25-50, and High is anything that is CP 1+ (there could be more sub-divisions here) then a single zone could contain content to challenge anyone. This results in a greater sense of danger earlier in the game, the desire to return to early zones to beat content you couldn't before (meaning a mix of player levels in zones), and it means that later overland zones would not be locked to a specific, homogenous challenge level, and could contain a few features that are Very Hard Indeed.

This idea retains One Tamriel's freedom of movement as there may not be enough on-level content in a single zone for someone to level up... meaning they would be encouraged to travel across Tamriel experiencing later (and earlier) zones in increasing depth as they levelled. It also removes the problem of all overland everywhere being too easy, while providing enough early-level content that even total newcomers to MMOs should be happy.

Of course, ZOS will never ever do it.

While i still think that their should be a vet mirror image of tamriel that you can portal between it and normal, i think normal should have something like this as well. Just because its level anywhere and play with your friends of any level doesn't mean everything should be easy. The only areas that are harder, for a newbie, in any zone except craglorn, are public dungeons and world bosses. Public dungeons aren't that much harder and often have other players in them. Base game world bosses can be hit or miss on people doing them but they could do something like add undaunted quests for them, so more people do them.

I think ZOS kind of went from one extreme to the other and left out everyone in the middle. Content is either a snoozefest solo( and even worse with a friend) or it has raid level mechanics with insane amounts of dps and one shot abilities. There is no middle normal difficulty. You go from LOLeasy to advanced to expert.

That is one that causes the big skill level gap in this game. The only way to really improve, for most people, from loleasy to advanced content such as more recent DLCs is to spend time teaching themselves without actually playing the game. If players have to practice and teach themselves to take on harder content rather than done naturally as content progression then that is major flaw in the game. This is the only RPG i have played in which there was such a huge gap in skills needed going from one content to another that almost required studying and practice sessions just so you don't look like you just started playing 20 minutes ago.

Very well put.

It also leads to gameplay that’s very unengaging for large portions of the game.

Iccotak · April 2021

Back to the topic:

I think Roaming World Bosses could be done like a mix between dragons and oblivion portals. (Blackwood)

Like dragons they roam the map, but like oblivion portals their appearances on the map are random and only their general area is marked, rather than a tracker.

They’d be large and walking, as opposed to dragon who flew.

Thechuckage · April 2021

oregonrob wrote: »

"I think ZOS kind of went from one extreme to the other and left out everyone in the middle. Content is either a snoozefest solo( and even worse with a friend) or it has raid level mechanics with insane amounts of dps and one shot abilities. There is no middle normal difficulty. You go from LOLeasy to advanced to expert." ThorianB

This is the first critique of ESO Overland that has promise. It is not a backdoor to trying to make Overland more challenging to veterans like the roaming World Boss concept is.

There needs to be a midlevel area that helps develop players without them getting easily trashed. I expect veteran players might still find this too easy, but maybe there needs to be an Insane level in DLC dungeons so veterans have a challenge.

Whatever goes in place, it does need to take into consideration that probably a majority of players play solo, a majority of the time. The group content, as it is, is sufficient.

Its almost like you have summarized the argument favoring veteran overland. A difficulty tier between group dungeons and candyland would very much help out those stepping into dungeons for the first time.

The only ones I've seen bringing up group overland content are the detractors. Mandatory grouped overland is a failed concept and there is no calls for it.

Vilixiti · April 2021

I love the idea of roaming bosses. This would be a very welcome addition and make the world feel more alive

Olauron · April 2021

Diminish wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Any forced content is trash content. Stationary world bosses are endurable enough due to them being avoidable. Roaming world bosses would simply disrupt players doing something else. It is always bad idea to prevent players from doing what they like and want by throwing into their faces content they don't like or don't want.

So don't go to the areas in the zone that having a roaming world boss. It is not like every world boss in every zone is going to be pathing every inch of every zone.

Yes, I get it. The whole point of the opening post is "let's make the gameplay of other players (who don't like fighting with world bosses) as miserable as possible and preferably remove them from our zones". My answer to this is simple: I like the way it is now and those, who don't like it, can remove themselves instead, if they can't play it as it is. The reaction is always mirrored: if someone expresses a desire to remove me, I express the opposite desire.

spartaxoxo · April 2021

Seraphayel wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

. And I really think ESO should stop catering to the newbies

Every game I played that stopped caring about adding new stuff for casual and new players in their expansions because "they had enough" saw their populations plummet shortly after. New expansions attract new and returning players alike, games should work on retaining them.

ESO does a fairly good job of having content for everyone. The storylines and overland are for everyone. And then trials have a good balance of having brutal difficulty challenges for hardcore players and the normal ones are tuned well for average players. They have even mixed in some more challenging content for more veteran players in the world events and bosses, though I personally think it's a waste since those players tend to abandon that content fairly quickly.

This game really empowers us to play our way, with content for all different types of players. And I think that's a strength of the game that should never be abandoned.

Every Chapter caters first and foremost to casuals / newbies. New tutorial, super easy overland zone. Then we have a trial for the hardcore PvE players and nothing for PvP players. On top of that this years Chapter gets Companions, which is a dedicated casual / newbie feature as those players need them the most.

Newbies and casuals have what, 25 zones now for their pleasure. There’s one zone that’s newbie unfriendly and that’s Craglorn. Is it too much to ask that once not casuals and newbies are the focus for a PvE zone?

And who said they should stop catering to newbies all together - they shouldn’t just forget that other parts of the playerbase exist.

Okay how about this.

Next year, they introduce a difficulty overland story, viewable once per character. And they introduce a really hard delve and give you a daily coffer for it.

And the casual players will get the next solo arena, vet dlc, world bosses, dungeons, and skins.

The new dungeons won't be harder than vet fungal grotto. The new trials will be easier than Craglorn and it will have new bis gear, perfected version will be endgame stuff.

That way we can play the old switcheroo, just to shake things up.

Vets get
Overland story
delve daily

Newbies/Casuals get
4 dungeons
all world bosses
world event
trial
arena

Afterall how is it fair vets always get the majority of the years new content!

Septimus_Magna · April 2021

The roaming world bosses would be great as addition to Undaunted pledges, something fun to do with random players and a good reason to visit zones besides a treasure map or survey.

Seraphayel · April 2021

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

. And I really think ESO should stop catering to the newbies

Every game I played that stopped caring about adding new stuff for casual and new players in their expansions because "they had enough" saw their populations plummet shortly after. New expansions attract new and returning players alike, games should work on retaining them.

ESO does a fairly good job of having content for everyone. The storylines and overland are for everyone. And then trials have a good balance of having brutal difficulty challenges for hardcore players and the normal ones are tuned well for average players. They have even mixed in some more challenging content for more veteran players in the world events and bosses, though I personally think it's a waste since those players tend to abandon that content fairly quickly.

This game really empowers us to play our way, with content for all different types of players. And I think that's a strength of the game that should never be abandoned.

Every Chapter caters first and foremost to casuals / newbies. New tutorial, super easy overland zone. Then we have a trial for the hardcore PvE players and nothing for PvP players. On top of that this years Chapter gets Companions, which is a dedicated casual / newbie feature as those players need them the most.

Newbies and casuals have what, 25 zones now for their pleasure. There’s one zone that’s newbie unfriendly and that’s Craglorn. Is it too much to ask that once not casuals and newbies are the focus for a PvE zone?

And who said they should stop catering to newbies all together - they shouldn’t just forget that other parts of the playerbase exist.

Okay how about this.

Next year, they introduce a difficulty overland story, viewable once per character. And they introduce a really hard delve and give you a daily coffer for it.

And the casual players will get the next solo arena, vet dlc, world bosses, dungeons, and skins.

The new dungeons won't be harder than vet fungal grotto. The new trials will be easier than Craglorn and it will have new bis gear, perfected version will be endgame stuff.

That way we can play the old switcheroo, just to shake things up.

Vets get
Overland story
delve daily

Newbies/Casuals get
4 dungeons
all world bosses
world event
trial
arena

Afterall how is it fair vets always get the majority of the years new content!

Normal trials and normal dungeons are not for veterans. And world bosses specific for veterans? I have to laugh. Just group up and do it, it might take 10 casuals instead of 2-3 veterans, but that’s not the point here.

Every casual can and should follow the most basic rules of combat. If you do, all this non-veteran content is just fine for casuals. Again, getting handed every part of content for free while investing almost nothing is not the goal of an MMORPG.

not_without_coffee · April 2021

My first MMO was an old indie MMO where collecting material was essential for the crafting driven economy.

Some regions with the most valuable material resources were roamed by groups of little 'bosses'.
They had an aggro range of about 100 m or so. Gathering valuable material was very dangerous and we often died.

But most players loved this challenge. The roaming bosses challenged player sneaking and fighting skills, player tactics and player strategies. Most players collected the material in groups, one or two gathering the material, the other three or four players watching and fending off the patrols.

There were guilds who offered regular trekking services for newbies and everyone else - and played it as a roleplay event. Many skilled players regarded it as an honor to help as a scout or guard on these treks.
The player community learned to interact and to socialize with each other and to deal with the roaming bosses. It was fun.

Runefang · April 2021

The trouble I always have with scripted events in MMOs is that after time they feel as static as the current mobs/bosses. It ends up being a lot of development for little additional interest.

Not to mention hunting down wandering bosses is a pain. Waiting for spawns of these events is usually painful too.

Too many MMOs develop content that is in theory meant to be repeated by the player based constantly to simply die a dlc later. Dragons and harrowstorms suffer the same fate here.

ThorianB · April 2021

Seraphayel wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

. And I really think ESO should stop catering to the newbies

Every game I played that stopped caring about adding new stuff for casual and new players in their expansions because "they had enough" saw their populations plummet shortly after. New expansions attract new and returning players alike, games should work on retaining them.

ESO does a fairly good job of having content for everyone. The storylines and overland are for everyone. And then trials have a good balance of having brutal difficulty challenges for hardcore players and the normal ones are tuned well for average players. They have even mixed in some more challenging content for more veteran players in the world events and bosses, though I personally think it's a waste since those players tend to abandon that content fairly quickly.

This game really empowers us to play our way, with content for all different types of players. And I think that's a strength of the game that should never be abandoned.

Every Chapter caters first and foremost to casuals / newbies. New tutorial, super easy overland zone. Then we have a trial for the hardcore PvE players and nothing for PvP players. On top of that this years Chapter gets Companions, which is a dedicated casual / newbie feature as those players need them the most.

Newbies and casuals have what, 25 zones now for their pleasure. There’s one zone that’s newbie unfriendly and that’s Craglorn. Is it too much to ask that once not casuals and newbies are the focus for a PvE zone?

And who said they should stop catering to newbies all together - they shouldn’t just forget that other parts of the playerbase exist.

Okay how about this.

Next year, they introduce a difficulty overland story, viewable once per character. And they introduce a really hard delve and give you a daily coffer for it.

And the casual players will get the next solo arena, vet dlc, world bosses, dungeons, and skins.

The new dungeons won't be harder than vet fungal grotto. The new trials will be easier than Craglorn and it will have new bis gear, perfected version will be endgame stuff.

That way we can play the old switcheroo, just to shake things up.

Vets get
Overland story
delve daily

Newbies/Casuals get
4 dungeons
all world bosses
world event
trial
arena

Afterall how is it fair vets always get the majority of the years new content!

Normal trials and normal dungeons are not for veterans. And world bosses specific for veterans? I have to laugh. Just group up and do it, it might take 10 casuals instead of 2-3 veterans, but that’s not the point here.

Every casual can and should follow the most basic rules of combat. If you do, all this non-veteran content is just fine for casuals. Again, getting handed every part of content for free while investing almost nothing is not the goal of an MMORPG.

While they may have stretched it a bit to prove a point, new DLCS dungeons are much much harder than base game dungeons and earlier DLC dungeons. The dungeons do get increasingly harder by quite a bit even on normal. Trials are definitely vet territory even on normal. World bosses can be a stretch since you can just dogpile on them. But they have become significantly harder( if you look at them from a solo perspective) than base game bosses. I don't see anything wrong with current DLC world bosses myself.

I am curious what your "basic rules of combat" are? The goal of an MMORPG is to provide entertainment for all who purchased it and an income for the company who developed and maintain it. Those are the ONLY goals of an MMORPG. A large majority of casuals don't mind challenging content. What bothers them is vet/toxic players trying to force them to do that content a certain way or putting artificial limits on that content.

Sanguinor2 · April 2021

How are normal trials vet territory? Most of them dont even have their mechanics in place.

ThorianB · April 2021

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

How are normal trials vet territory? Most of them dont even have their mechanics in place.

Trials and raids are always considered end game vet player content regardless of if they are vet or normal. It doesn't have to say vet to be for vets. vet when used to describe content just means " harder version of". Vet is also not one level of difficulty. It is a range like easy, normal, advanced, etc. Vet trials are the top end of vet difficulty.

Seraphayel · April 2021

ThorianB wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

. And I really think ESO should stop catering to the newbies

Every game I played that stopped caring about adding new stuff for casual and new players in their expansions because "they had enough" saw their populations plummet shortly after. New expansions attract new and returning players alike, games should work on retaining them.

ESO does a fairly good job of having content for everyone. The storylines and overland are for everyone. And then trials have a good balance of having brutal difficulty challenges for hardcore players and the normal ones are tuned well for average players. They have even mixed in some more challenging content for more veteran players in the world events and bosses, though I personally think it's a waste since those players tend to abandon that content fairly quickly.

This game really empowers us to play our way, with content for all different types of players. And I think that's a strength of the game that should never be abandoned.

Every Chapter caters first and foremost to casuals / newbies. New tutorial, super easy overland zone. Then we have a trial for the hardcore PvE players and nothing for PvP players. On top of that this years Chapter gets Companions, which is a dedicated casual / newbie feature as those players need them the most.

Newbies and casuals have what, 25 zones now for their pleasure. There’s one zone that’s newbie unfriendly and that’s Craglorn. Is it too much to ask that once not casuals and newbies are the focus for a PvE zone?

And who said they should stop catering to newbies all together - they shouldn’t just forget that other parts of the playerbase exist.

Okay how about this.

Next year, they introduce a difficulty overland story, viewable once per character. And they introduce a really hard delve and give you a daily coffer for it.

And the casual players will get the next solo arena, vet dlc, world bosses, dungeons, and skins.

The new dungeons won't be harder than vet fungal grotto. The new trials will be easier than Craglorn and it will have new bis gear, perfected version will be endgame stuff.

That way we can play the old switcheroo, just to shake things up.

Vets get
Overland story
delve daily

Newbies/Casuals get
4 dungeons
all world bosses
world event
trial
arena

Afterall how is it fair vets always get the majority of the years new content!

Normal trials and normal dungeons are not for veterans. And world bosses specific for veterans? I have to laugh. Just group up and do it, it might take 10 casuals instead of 2-3 veterans, but that’s not the point here.

Every casual can and should follow the most basic rules of combat. If you do, all this non-veteran content is just fine for casuals. Again, getting handed every part of content for free while investing almost nothing is not the goal of an MMORPG.

While they may have stretched it a bit to prove a point, new DLCS dungeons are much much harder than base game dungeons and earlier DLC dungeons. The dungeons do get increasingly harder by quite a bit even on normal. Trials are definitely vet territory even on normal. World bosses can be a stretch since you can just dogpile on them. But they have become significantly harder( if you look at them from a solo perspective) than base game bosses. I don't see anything wrong with current DLC world bosses myself.

I am curious what your "basic rules of combat" are? The goal of an MMORPG is to provide entertainment for all who purchased it and an income for the company who developed and maintain it. Those are the ONLY goals of an MMORPG. A large majority of casuals don't mind challenging content. What bothers them is vet/toxic players trying to force them to do that content a certain way or putting artificial limits on that content.

Basic rules of combat are the things you get taught in the tutorial: Light Attack, Heavy Attack, Block, Break Free, Bash & Dodge Roll / Evade. If you follow these simple rules as a casual, you can finish all of the normal content this game has to offer. Nothing of this is challenging, it’s just how the game works, it’s the most basic combat stuff. You don’t need weaving, you don’t need the right debuff / buff uptime etc. to succeed in normal, non-Veteran content.

[snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

tomofhyrule · April 2021

I'm surprised that people actually want bosses like Dragons. Outside of events, it's basically impossible to get anybody to help kill NElsweyr dragons unless it's landed by the Star Haven wayshrine, and even then it has to be at one of the two spots right next to it.

Oh right, because the overland sets in NElsweyr aren't meta, and the other loot is meh. Every one of these 'harder stuff' threads is basically "I want to struggle through content and get BiS gear for it, because it's not worth it unless I get rewarded." I see people calling out for help in /z all the time for DLC WBs, and they're all empty unless there's an event going on.

These threads come up over and over again, but I can't see ZOS spending the time/effort/money to go back and redo basegame stuff. The overland is specifically designed to be faceroll easy, but the world events and bosses are getting more intense as you get more DLCs - compare a basegame WB like the Strifeswarm Champion (standard damage sponge) to Ri'Atarashi in SElsweyr (wtf adds) or your soloable Dolmens to the Harrowstorms. Also story bosses are going up in difficulty as well - again, compare the fight against Mannimarco (hit him until he dies) to the fight against Lady Belain (which does have forced mechanics and you have to use tools).

What I can't see them doing is to go back and remake overland. Most of what people want boils down to them wanting a complete remake of the entire game - they don't want damage sponges, they don't want self-nerfs. They want new mechanics added, they want to actively avoid the red and use tactics, etc. (which I sometimes find a bit ironic since most endgame content is 'DPS it down before we have to deal with mechanics'). That's not a small patch, it's ESO2.

Here's a thought exercise: remaking one zone to have those kind of mechanics is not easy or cheap. Let's assume that, since the landmasses already exist they can save a bit of time, but the basegame delves are really tiny compared to DLCs so we would need to remake those. That means that they might be able to redo probably one alliance area (5 zones) in the time it normally takes to do a yearlong content, and that's pushing it. So would you be willing to pay the $60 chapter, and a few DLC's worth of crowns, for solely a redo of existing content? And since they know that the new content brings in new people and old stuff may not, you may need to support the difference by paying more than just that. And if that's only one alliance zone, that means we need 3 years worth of content, which leads to three years worth of no new hooks for people to come in. Would it be worth it to you to rebuy the basegame for around $500, and do you think enough people would go for it to make it profitable, or would you mind paying (significantly) more to offset that cost?

Tandor · April 2021

RedMuse wrote: »

Getting one-shotted randomly by a boss while questing overland because I didn't see it approaching, or spend 2 hours trying to find a specific boss for a quest when I for once actually need the bugger, is not my idea fun. Rather it's the opposite of fun. So I'm going with no.

This. Totally.

Tandor · April 2021

Seraphayel wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Newbs would get destroyed while they explored the overland. Dragons are pretty much safe from harm because they don't attack while flying around from one point to another, and when they do land it has a pretty low aggro radius in comparison to their size.

Ok, then newbies die - what's the problem? Has dying in an MMORPG become such a problem? It's still a game and death in ESO means basically nothing.

Basically Overland should only cater to the [snip] and be as easy as a starter zone.

Because the risk of failure isn’t fun...apparently

We can say it’s accessible to everyone, but at what cost?

I do not agree that overland should be as easy as possible so that everyone, even the most unskilled player can faceroll it. Challenge is part of a roleplaying game. Not every zone has to be casual friendly. Heck, make 1/3 of the zone harder, with harder enemies etc. - casuals don’t have to go there alone, it’s easy as that.

The risk of failure isn’t fun, but the lack of risk isn’t either.

That describes the present Craglorn - how often do you see the harder group encounters being taken on? Same with the dragons in Elsweyr. That sort of group content in overland zones tends to be well supported for a few weeks after the content launches, then it becomes somewhere that the experienced players have finished with and the newer players can't find enough players for. Harrowstorms in Western Skyrim are another example, new players get creamed there trying to complete the zone map. Mixing veteran or even just group content in with lowbie content in overland zones simply doesn't work.

Seraphayel · April 2021

Tandor wrote: »

Mixing veteran or even just group content in with lowbie content in overland zones simply doesn't work.

Sorry, but I disagree with this. It absolutely works. Just don't expect everything to get handed to you easily. And if you're so casual that you cannot get it done, well, then you don't get it done. It's not mandatory for casuals to complete everything.

ThorianB · April 2021

Seraphayel wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

. And I really think ESO should stop catering to the newbies

Every game I played that stopped caring about adding new stuff for casual and new players in their expansions because "they had enough" saw their populations plummet shortly after. New expansions attract new and returning players alike, games should work on retaining them.

ESO does a fairly good job of having content for everyone. The storylines and overland are for everyone. And then trials have a good balance of having brutal difficulty challenges for hardcore players and the normal ones are tuned well for average players. They have even mixed in some more challenging content for more veteran players in the world events and bosses, though I personally think it's a waste since those players tend to abandon that content fairly quickly.

This game really empowers us to play our way, with content for all different types of players. And I think that's a strength of the game that should never be abandoned.

Every Chapter caters first and foremost to casuals / newbies. New tutorial, super easy overland zone. Then we have a trial for the hardcore PvE players and nothing for PvP players. On top of that this years Chapter gets Companions, which is a dedicated casual / newbie feature as those players need them the most.

Newbies and casuals have what, 25 zones now for their pleasure. There’s one zone that’s newbie unfriendly and that’s Craglorn. Is it too much to ask that once not casuals and newbies are the focus for a PvE zone?

And who said they should stop catering to newbies all together - they shouldn’t just forget that other parts of the playerbase exist.

Okay how about this.

Next year, they introduce a difficulty overland story, viewable once per character. And they introduce a really hard delve and give you a daily coffer for it.

And the casual players will get the next solo arena, vet dlc, world bosses, dungeons, and skins.

The new dungeons won't be harder than vet fungal grotto. The new trials will be easier than Craglorn and it will have new bis gear, perfected version will be endgame stuff.

That way we can play the old switcheroo, just to shake things up.

Vets get
Overland story
delve daily

Newbies/Casuals get
4 dungeons
all world bosses
world event
trial
arena

Afterall how is it fair vets always get the majority of the years new content!

Normal trials and normal dungeons are not for veterans. And world bosses specific for veterans? I have to laugh. Just group up and do it, it might take 10 casuals instead of 2-3 veterans, but that’s not the point here.

Every casual can and should follow the most basic rules of combat. If you do, all this non-veteran content is just fine for casuals. Again, getting handed every part of content for free while investing almost nothing is not the goal of an MMORPG.

While they may have stretched it a bit to prove a point, new DLCS dungeons are much much harder than base game dungeons and earlier DLC dungeons. The dungeons do get increasingly harder by quite a bit even on normal. Trials are definitely vet territory even on normal. World bosses can be a stretch since you can just dogpile on them. But they have become significantly harder( if you look at them from a solo perspective) than base game bosses. I don't see anything wrong with current DLC world bosses myself.

I am curious what your "basic rules of combat" are? The goal of an MMORPG is to provide entertainment for all who purchased it and an income for the company who developed and maintain it. Those are the ONLY goals of an MMORPG. A large majority of casuals don't mind challenging content. What bothers them is vet/toxic players trying to force them to do that content a certain way or putting artificial limits on that content.

Basic rules of combat are the things you get taught in the tutorial: Light Attack, Heavy Attack, Block, Break Free, Bash & Dodge Roll / Evade. If you follow these simple rules as a casual, you can finish all of the normal content this game has to offer. Nothing of this is challenging, it’s just how the game works, it’s the most basic combat stuff. You don’t need weaving, you don’t need the right debuff / buff uptime etc. to succeed in normal, non-Veteran content.

[snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

are you including normal dungeons and normal trials in this?

Sanguinor2 · April 2021

ThorianB wrote: »

are you including normal dungeons and normal trials in this?

If you add casting skills to the list then that is all that is needed to beat normal dungeons and trials.