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Predict max dps of the Companions
-
Gythral✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭10x what they will be con Nov
“Be as a tower, that, firmly set,
Shakes not its top for any blast that blows!”
Dante Alighieri, The Divine Comedy0 -
Kwoung✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Waffennacht wrote: ».PigofSteel wrote: »They will take average damage which is around 15k and than give it 1/3 of that so we are expecting around 5k damage.
15K is average damage? Is spamming light attacks all the average player doing? Serious question, since I can get 15K with nothing but light attacks after the last patch, I would hope the "average" player would be using some of their skills and doing closer to 30k. Most of the casual players I know do about 50k now.
That was the entire point of the last patch, raise the low end and lower the high end. Anyone with CP that is still in the 5-10K range at this point, must be mostly afk while playing to do that poorly.
I think that's largely a difference in the personal definition of average that we all have. I personally know players that struggle mightily to get 20K (on real targets, not the Iron Atro) because they...
- Have unoptimized gear
- Have unoptimized CP
- Have a hard time weaving, and/or neglect it entirely
- Have a hard time keeping skills consistently applied
- Have a hard time staying oriented in combat when the vfx kick into superultimateomegaoverdrive
- Have a hard time knowing what to do in combat in general, besides "attack and don't die"
- Are just not that good at video games to begin with
Now, whether or not we should consider these players "average" or not is debatable, but my point is I think a lot of people are thinking of that kind of average, whereas you might be thinking of ~50K DPS players who try to optimize their builds and practice rotations as average. Know what I mean?
Also, don't forget a lot of people's view of "average" is still calibrated for the landscape before this latest update (when the lower end was still substantially lower). CP 2.0 and Flames of Ambition are still fairly new, and a lot of folks need time to adjust and reevaluate their definition of "average" in the new meta. 15K sounds fairly average to me, until recently.
I'll buy that. I pretty much define average as someone who is actually trying, put some thought into their gear and skills and knows how to use them at a basic level for the most part. They haven't perfected weaving, may not have a lot of or properly allotted CP, but aren't simply spamming LA/random skills and calling it a day. But yes, the old average was much lower than the new one and I can understand how many may not be quite aware of that yet.
I dont know new averages.
I do know what it takes to beat dungeons though
Again; anything above 20k dps on a 3 mill is more than enough to solo all vet dungeons.
Just sayin
I disagree. While yes, 20K DPS is probably enough, you are assuming the player doing that 20K DPS has a clue, can break free, stay out of stupid, block at the right time, is wearing the right sets, etc... which chances are if they can only do 20K DPS, they probably aren't very good at those other basic things either.3 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Waffennacht wrote: ».PigofSteel wrote: »They will take average damage which is around 15k and than give it 1/3 of that so we are expecting around 5k damage.
15K is average damage? Is spamming light attacks all the average player doing? Serious question, since I can get 15K with nothing but light attacks after the last patch, I would hope the "average" player would be using some of their skills and doing closer to 30k. Most of the casual players I know do about 50k now.
That was the entire point of the last patch, raise the low end and lower the high end. Anyone with CP that is still in the 5-10K range at this point, must be mostly afk while playing to do that poorly.
I think that's largely a difference in the personal definition of average that we all have. I personally know players that struggle mightily to get 20K (on real targets, not the Iron Atro) because they...
- Have unoptimized gear
- Have unoptimized CP
- Have a hard time weaving, and/or neglect it entirely
- Have a hard time keeping skills consistently applied
- Have a hard time staying oriented in combat when the vfx kick into superultimateomegaoverdrive
- Have a hard time knowing what to do in combat in general, besides "attack and don't die"
- Are just not that good at video games to begin with
Now, whether or not we should consider these players "average" or not is debatable, but my point is I think a lot of people are thinking of that kind of average, whereas you might be thinking of ~50K DPS players who try to optimize their builds and practice rotations as average. Know what I mean?
Also, don't forget a lot of people's view of "average" is still calibrated for the landscape before this latest update (when the lower end was still substantially lower). CP 2.0 and Flames of Ambition are still fairly new, and a lot of folks need time to adjust and reevaluate their definition of "average" in the new meta. 15K sounds fairly average to me, until recently.
I'll buy that. I pretty much define average as someone who is actually trying, put some thought into their gear and skills and knows how to use them at a basic level for the most part. They haven't perfected weaving, may not have a lot of or properly allotted CP, but aren't simply spamming LA/random skills and calling it a day. But yes, the old average was much lower than the new one and I can understand how many may not be quite aware of that yet.
I dont know new averages.
I do know what it takes to beat dungeons though
Again; anything above 20k dps on a 3 mill is more than enough to solo all vet dungeons.
Just sayin
I disagree. While yes, 20K DPS is probably enough, you are assuming the player doing that 20K DPS has a clue, can break free, stay out of stupid, block at the right time, is wearing the right sets, etc... which chances are if they can only do 20K DPS, they probably aren't very good at those other basic things either.
Yeah 20k dps is not the worst but it is low, especially with group buffs/debuffs applied. I guess there are still people who have no idea that 20k dps is on the lower side, not the average side lol.2 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: ».PigofSteel wrote: »They will take average damage which is around 15k and than give it 1/3 of that so we are expecting around 5k damage.
15K is average damage? Is spamming light attacks all the average player doing? Serious question, since I can get 15K with nothing but light attacks after the last patch, I would hope the "average" player would be using some of their skills and doing closer to 30k. Most of the casual players I know do about 50k now.
That was the entire point of the last patch, raise the low end and lower the high end. Anyone with CP that is still in the 5-10K range at this point, must be mostly afk while playing to do that poorly.
I think that's largely a difference in the personal definition of average that we all have. I personally know players that struggle mightily to get 20K (on real targets, not the Iron Atro) because they...
- Have unoptimized gear
- Have unoptimized CP
- Have a hard time weaving, and/or neglect it entirely
- Have a hard time keeping skills consistently applied
- Have a hard time staying oriented in combat when the vfx kick into superultimateomegaoverdrive
- Have a hard time knowing what to do in combat in general, besides "attack and don't die"
- Are just not that good at video games to begin with
Now, whether or not we should consider these players "average" or not is debatable, but my point is I think a lot of people are thinking of that kind of average, whereas you might be thinking of ~50K DPS players who try to optimize their builds and practice rotations as average. Know what I mean?
Also, don't forget a lot of people's view of "average" is still calibrated for the landscape before this latest update (when the lower end was still substantially lower). CP 2.0 and Flames of Ambition are still fairly new, and a lot of folks need time to adjust and reevaluate their definition of "average" in the new meta. 15K sounds fairly average to me, until recently.
I'll buy that. I pretty much define average as someone who is actually trying, put some thought into their gear and skills and knows how to use them at a basic level for the most part. They haven't perfected weaving, may not have a lot of or properly allotted CP, but aren't simply spamming LA/random skills and calling it a day. But yes, the old average was much lower than the new one and I can understand how many may not be quite aware of that yet.
I dont know new averages.
I do know what it takes to beat dungeons though
Again; anything above 20k dps on a 3 mill is more than enough to solo all vet dungeons.
Just sayin
I disagree. While yes, 20K DPS is probably enough, you are assuming the player doing that 20K DPS has a clue, can break free, stay out of stupid, block at the right time, is wearing the right sets, etc... which chances are if they can only do 20K DPS, they probably aren't very good at those other basic things either.
Yeah 20k dps is not the worst but it is low, especially with group buffs/debuffs applied. I guess there are still people who have no idea that 20k dps is on the lower side, not the average side lol.
20k is definitely towards the average side. Vast majority of pugs I have went into were hitting 20-30k. And even when I make a new toon and haven't learned a rotation or gotten good gear or anything like that, I typically can at least hit around 35k just applying some basic principles and that's never not been enough to guarantee that I get a drop on bosses even during events with like 50 people.
I think people who can do endgame content have a very skewed perception of what the rest of the player is doing. If you're able to do vss in a pickup group with your trials guilds with normal reqs, you're already in the top 1% of players.
That's why ZOS keeps the dps check required for non-trial vet clears at around the 20-30k mark. It's what the average player can do.Edited by spartaxoxo on April 6, 2021 7:40PM5 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭etchedpixels wrote: »
be fair - not all pug groups are that bad
The dps is likely to be irrelevant if they can either end up taking some of the hits or can be loaded with group buff gear. The warden bear for example isn't astoundingly vicious but it's certainly useful in solo play. I don't think I'm expecting anything more than a sorc flappy pet but in trousers.
I think you misunderstood me.
I was referring to the quest NPCs that occasionally accompany you on quests. Not pugs. They do such pathetic damage they might as well not even be there and are basically just nuisances who obstruct my targeting. So the companions better be better than those. haha
Edited by Jeremy on April 6, 2021 7:38PM1 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: ».PigofSteel wrote: »They will take average damage which is around 15k and than give it 1/3 of that so we are expecting around 5k damage.
15K is average damage? Is spamming light attacks all the average player doing? Serious question, since I can get 15K with nothing but light attacks after the last patch, I would hope the "average" player would be using some of their skills and doing closer to 30k. Most of the casual players I know do about 50k now.
That was the entire point of the last patch, raise the low end and lower the high end. Anyone with CP that is still in the 5-10K range at this point, must be mostly afk while playing to do that poorly.
I think that's largely a difference in the personal definition of average that we all have. I personally know players that struggle mightily to get 20K (on real targets, not the Iron Atro) because they...
- Have unoptimized gear
- Have unoptimized CP
- Have a hard time weaving, and/or neglect it entirely
- Have a hard time keeping skills consistently applied
- Have a hard time staying oriented in combat when the vfx kick into superultimateomegaoverdrive
- Have a hard time knowing what to do in combat in general, besides "attack and don't die"
- Are just not that good at video games to begin with
Now, whether or not we should consider these players "average" or not is debatable, but my point is I think a lot of people are thinking of that kind of average, whereas you might be thinking of ~50K DPS players who try to optimize their builds and practice rotations as average. Know what I mean?
Also, don't forget a lot of people's view of "average" is still calibrated for the landscape before this latest update (when the lower end was still substantially lower). CP 2.0 and Flames of Ambition are still fairly new, and a lot of folks need time to adjust and reevaluate their definition of "average" in the new meta. 15K sounds fairly average to me, until recently.
I'll buy that. I pretty much define average as someone who is actually trying, put some thought into their gear and skills and knows how to use them at a basic level for the most part. They haven't perfected weaving, may not have a lot of or properly allotted CP, but aren't simply spamming LA/random skills and calling it a day. But yes, the old average was much lower than the new one and I can understand how many may not be quite aware of that yet.
I dont know new averages.
I do know what it takes to beat dungeons though
Again; anything above 20k dps on a 3 mill is more than enough to solo all vet dungeons.
Just sayin
I disagree. While yes, 20K DPS is probably enough, you are assuming the player doing that 20K DPS has a clue, can break free, stay out of stupid, block at the right time, is wearing the right sets, etc... which chances are if they can only do 20K DPS, they probably aren't very good at those other basic things either.
Yeah 20k dps is not the worst but it is low, especially with group buffs/debuffs applied. I guess there are still people who have no idea that 20k dps is on the lower side, not the average side lol.
20k is definitely towards the average side. Vast majority of pugs I have went into were hitting 20-30k. And even when I make a new toon and haven't learned a rotation or gotten good gear or anything like that, I typically can at least hit around 35k just applying some basic principles and that's never not been enough to guarantee that I get a drop on bosses even during events with like 50 people.
I think people who can do endgame content have a very skewed perception of what the rest of the player is doing. If you're able to do vss in a pickup group with your trials guilds with normal reqs, you're already in the top 1% of players.
That's why ZOS keeps the dps check required for non-trial vet clears at around the 20-30k mark. It's what the average player can do.
30k sounds about right for average DPS. If you're LA weaving, then you should be hitting that. If someone isn't hitting that, they're probably not LA weaving or have a bad rotation. Back to the drawing board.1 -
codierussell✭✭✭✭
But, that DPS range also includes bar swapping, 10 skill slots, and no cooldowns on skills.
We've already seen that these skills will have cooldowns for companions. We've seen what looks like only one bar. Still just assumptions that we can equip normal gear to them.
In order to get 50K dps, off skills that have 8 second (or potentially more) cooldowns, we would need the skills to do a ton of damage each. And as was seen in the stream, they do like 2-3K damage. Hardly an amount that would work up to 70K DPS.
There is nothing saying you can't get two bars yet, they showed a lowest level companion so maybe at level 15 they unlock bar swaps. Also for a stam dk they have a ton of dots, so the cooldown isn't as much of a factor. There are still things to find out so nobody really knows, but if they do 10k dps like everyone is guessing they may as well not be including in combat. You can spam light attacks with a bow and get 10k dps.1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: ».PigofSteel wrote: »They will take average damage which is around 15k and than give it 1/3 of that so we are expecting around 5k damage.
15K is average damage? Is spamming light attacks all the average player doing? Serious question, since I can get 15K with nothing but light attacks after the last patch, I would hope the "average" player would be using some of their skills and doing closer to 30k. Most of the casual players I know do about 50k now.
That was the entire point of the last patch, raise the low end and lower the high end. Anyone with CP that is still in the 5-10K range at this point, must be mostly afk while playing to do that poorly.
I think that's largely a difference in the personal definition of average that we all have. I personally know players that struggle mightily to get 20K (on real targets, not the Iron Atro) because they...
- Have unoptimized gear
- Have unoptimized CP
- Have a hard time weaving, and/or neglect it entirely
- Have a hard time keeping skills consistently applied
- Have a hard time staying oriented in combat when the vfx kick into superultimateomegaoverdrive
- Have a hard time knowing what to do in combat in general, besides "attack and don't die"
- Are just not that good at video games to begin with
Now, whether or not we should consider these players "average" or not is debatable, but my point is I think a lot of people are thinking of that kind of average, whereas you might be thinking of ~50K DPS players who try to optimize their builds and practice rotations as average. Know what I mean?
Also, don't forget a lot of people's view of "average" is still calibrated for the landscape before this latest update (when the lower end was still substantially lower). CP 2.0 and Flames of Ambition are still fairly new, and a lot of folks need time to adjust and reevaluate their definition of "average" in the new meta. 15K sounds fairly average to me, until recently.
I'll buy that. I pretty much define average as someone who is actually trying, put some thought into their gear and skills and knows how to use them at a basic level for the most part. They haven't perfected weaving, may not have a lot of or properly allotted CP, but aren't simply spamming LA/random skills and calling it a day. But yes, the old average was much lower than the new one and I can understand how many may not be quite aware of that yet.
I dont know new averages.
I do know what it takes to beat dungeons though
Again; anything above 20k dps on a 3 mill is more than enough to solo all vet dungeons.
Just sayin
I disagree. While yes, 20K DPS is probably enough, you are assuming the player doing that 20K DPS has a clue, can break free, stay out of stupid, block at the right time, is wearing the right sets, etc... which chances are if they can only do 20K DPS, they probably aren't very good at those other basic things either.
Yeah 20k dps is not the worst but it is low, especially with group buffs/debuffs applied. I guess there are still people who have no idea that 20k dps is on the lower side, not the average side lol.
20k is definitely towards the average side. Vast majority of pugs I have went into were hitting 20-30k. And even when I make a new toon and haven't learned a rotation or gotten good gear or anything like that, I typically can at least hit around 35k just applying some basic principles and that's never not been enough to guarantee that I get a drop on bosses even during events with like 50 people.
I think people who can do endgame content have a very skewed perception of what the rest of the player is doing. If you're able to do vss in a pickup group with your trials guilds with normal reqs, you're already in the top 1% of players.
That's why ZOS keeps the dps check required for non-trial vet clears at around the 20-30k mark. It's what the average player can do.
30k sounds about right for average DPS. If you're LA weaving, then you should be hitting that. If someone isn't hitting that, they're probably not LA weaving or have a bad rotation. Back to the drawing board.
Average dps is not light attack weaving nor is that something even taught to players through non-external means. Average dps has decent gear in non-optimized traits, they aren't light attack weaving, and they have a basic rotation where they throw down a few dots and then use their spammable and occasionally heavy attack. Doing that they hit between 20-30k.
You'll start consistently out damaging them at 35k and you'll start to get occasional compliments on how fast you kill at like 40k+Edited by spartaxoxo on April 6, 2021 8:02PM2 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: ».PigofSteel wrote: »They will take average damage which is around 15k and than give it 1/3 of that so we are expecting around 5k damage.
15K is average damage? Is spamming light attacks all the average player doing? Serious question, since I can get 15K with nothing but light attacks after the last patch, I would hope the "average" player would be using some of their skills and doing closer to 30k. Most of the casual players I know do about 50k now.
That was the entire point of the last patch, raise the low end and lower the high end. Anyone with CP that is still in the 5-10K range at this point, must be mostly afk while playing to do that poorly.
I think that's largely a difference in the personal definition of average that we all have. I personally know players that struggle mightily to get 20K (on real targets, not the Iron Atro) because they...
- Have unoptimized gear
- Have unoptimized CP
- Have a hard time weaving, and/or neglect it entirely
- Have a hard time keeping skills consistently applied
- Have a hard time staying oriented in combat when the vfx kick into superultimateomegaoverdrive
- Have a hard time knowing what to do in combat in general, besides "attack and don't die"
- Are just not that good at video games to begin with
Now, whether or not we should consider these players "average" or not is debatable, but my point is I think a lot of people are thinking of that kind of average, whereas you might be thinking of ~50K DPS players who try to optimize their builds and practice rotations as average. Know what I mean?
Also, don't forget a lot of people's view of "average" is still calibrated for the landscape before this latest update (when the lower end was still substantially lower). CP 2.0 and Flames of Ambition are still fairly new, and a lot of folks need time to adjust and reevaluate their definition of "average" in the new meta. 15K sounds fairly average to me, until recently.
I'll buy that. I pretty much define average as someone who is actually trying, put some thought into their gear and skills and knows how to use them at a basic level for the most part. They haven't perfected weaving, may not have a lot of or properly allotted CP, but aren't simply spamming LA/random skills and calling it a day. But yes, the old average was much lower than the new one and I can understand how many may not be quite aware of that yet.
I dont know new averages.
I do know what it takes to beat dungeons though
Again; anything above 20k dps on a 3 mill is more than enough to solo all vet dungeons.
Just sayin
I disagree. While yes, 20K DPS is probably enough, you are assuming the player doing that 20K DPS has a clue, can break free, stay out of stupid, block at the right time, is wearing the right sets, etc... which chances are if they can only do 20K DPS, they probably aren't very good at those other basic things either.
Yeah 20k dps is not the worst but it is low, especially with group buffs/debuffs applied. I guess there are still people who have no idea that 20k dps is on the lower side, not the average side lol.
20k is definitely towards the average side. Vast majority of pugs I have went into were hitting 20-30k. And even when I make a new toon and haven't learned a rotation or gotten good gear or anything like that, I typically can at least hit around 35k just applying some basic principles and that's never not been enough to guarantee that I get a drop on bosses even during events with like 50 people.
I think people who can do endgame content have a very skewed perception of what the rest of the player is doing. If you're able to do vss in a pickup group with your trials guilds with normal reqs, you're already in the top 1% of players.
That's why ZOS keeps the dps check required for non-trial vet clears at around the 20-30k mark. It's what the average player can do.
30k sounds about right for average DPS. If you're LA weaving, then you should be hitting that. If someone isn't hitting that, they're probably not LA weaving or have a bad rotation. Back to the drawing board.
Average dps is not light attack weaving nor is that something even taught to players through non-external means. Average dps has decent gear in non-optimized traits, they aren't light attack weaving, and they have a basic rotation where they throw down a few dots and then use their spammable. Doing that they hit between 20-30k.
Weird, your definition of average DPS definitely differs from mine, and I've been playing since beta. So is 20k what passes for average DPS now a days? If so, how come so many still can't hit it?0 -
ArcVelarian✭✭✭✭✭Enough to make up for that 15% nerf Player DPS received.
Murphy's Law of PvP : If it can be abused and or exploited, it will be abused and or exploited.0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: ».PigofSteel wrote: »They will take average damage which is around 15k and than give it 1/3 of that so we are expecting around 5k damage.
15K is average damage? Is spamming light attacks all the average player doing? Serious question, since I can get 15K with nothing but light attacks after the last patch, I would hope the "average" player would be using some of their skills and doing closer to 30k. Most of the casual players I know do about 50k now.
That was the entire point of the last patch, raise the low end and lower the high end. Anyone with CP that is still in the 5-10K range at this point, must be mostly afk while playing to do that poorly.
I think that's largely a difference in the personal definition of average that we all have. I personally know players that struggle mightily to get 20K (on real targets, not the Iron Atro) because they...
- Have unoptimized gear
- Have unoptimized CP
- Have a hard time weaving, and/or neglect it entirely
- Have a hard time keeping skills consistently applied
- Have a hard time staying oriented in combat when the vfx kick into superultimateomegaoverdrive
- Have a hard time knowing what to do in combat in general, besides "attack and don't die"
- Are just not that good at video games to begin with
Now, whether or not we should consider these players "average" or not is debatable, but my point is I think a lot of people are thinking of that kind of average, whereas you might be thinking of ~50K DPS players who try to optimize their builds and practice rotations as average. Know what I mean?
Also, don't forget a lot of people's view of "average" is still calibrated for the landscape before this latest update (when the lower end was still substantially lower). CP 2.0 and Flames of Ambition are still fairly new, and a lot of folks need time to adjust and reevaluate their definition of "average" in the new meta. 15K sounds fairly average to me, until recently.
I'll buy that. I pretty much define average as someone who is actually trying, put some thought into their gear and skills and knows how to use them at a basic level for the most part. They haven't perfected weaving, may not have a lot of or properly allotted CP, but aren't simply spamming LA/random skills and calling it a day. But yes, the old average was much lower than the new one and I can understand how many may not be quite aware of that yet.
I dont know new averages.
I do know what it takes to beat dungeons though
Again; anything above 20k dps on a 3 mill is more than enough to solo all vet dungeons.
Just sayin
I disagree. While yes, 20K DPS is probably enough, you are assuming the player doing that 20K DPS has a clue, can break free, stay out of stupid, block at the right time, is wearing the right sets, etc... which chances are if they can only do 20K DPS, they probably aren't very good at those other basic things either.
Yeah 20k dps is not the worst but it is low, especially with group buffs/debuffs applied. I guess there are still people who have no idea that 20k dps is on the lower side, not the average side lol.
20k is definitely towards the average side. Vast majority of pugs I have went into were hitting 20-30k. And even when I make a new toon and haven't learned a rotation or gotten good gear or anything like that, I typically can at least hit around 35k just applying some basic principles and that's never not been enough to guarantee that I get a drop on bosses even during events with like 50 people.
I think people who can do endgame content have a very skewed perception of what the rest of the player is doing. If you're able to do vss in a pickup group with your trials guilds with normal reqs, you're already in the top 1% of players.
That's why ZOS keeps the dps check required for non-trial vet clears at around the 20-30k mark. It's what the average player can do.
30k sounds about right for average DPS. If you're LA weaving, then you should be hitting that. If someone isn't hitting that, they're probably not LA weaving or have a bad rotation. Back to the drawing board.
Average dps is not light attack weaving nor is that something even taught to players through non-external means. Average dps has decent gear in non-optimized traits, they aren't light attack weaving, and they have a basic rotation where they throw down a few dots and then use their spammable. Doing that they hit between 20-30k.
Weird, your definition of average DPS definitely differs from mine, and I've been playing since beta. So is 20k what passes for average DPS now a days? If so, how come so many still can't hit it?
Because about 1/3rd of the playerbase is even lower than that.2 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: ».PigofSteel wrote: »They will take average damage which is around 15k and than give it 1/3 of that so we are expecting around 5k damage.
15K is average damage? Is spamming light attacks all the average player doing? Serious question, since I can get 15K with nothing but light attacks after the last patch, I would hope the "average" player would be using some of their skills and doing closer to 30k. Most of the casual players I know do about 50k now.
That was the entire point of the last patch, raise the low end and lower the high end. Anyone with CP that is still in the 5-10K range at this point, must be mostly afk while playing to do that poorly.
I think that's largely a difference in the personal definition of average that we all have. I personally know players that struggle mightily to get 20K (on real targets, not the Iron Atro) because they...
- Have unoptimized gear
- Have unoptimized CP
- Have a hard time weaving, and/or neglect it entirely
- Have a hard time keeping skills consistently applied
- Have a hard time staying oriented in combat when the vfx kick into superultimateomegaoverdrive
- Have a hard time knowing what to do in combat in general, besides "attack and don't die"
- Are just not that good at video games to begin with
Now, whether or not we should consider these players "average" or not is debatable, but my point is I think a lot of people are thinking of that kind of average, whereas you might be thinking of ~50K DPS players who try to optimize their builds and practice rotations as average. Know what I mean?
Also, don't forget a lot of people's view of "average" is still calibrated for the landscape before this latest update (when the lower end was still substantially lower). CP 2.0 and Flames of Ambition are still fairly new, and a lot of folks need time to adjust and reevaluate their definition of "average" in the new meta. 15K sounds fairly average to me, until recently.
I'll buy that. I pretty much define average as someone who is actually trying, put some thought into their gear and skills and knows how to use them at a basic level for the most part. They haven't perfected weaving, may not have a lot of or properly allotted CP, but aren't simply spamming LA/random skills and calling it a day. But yes, the old average was much lower than the new one and I can understand how many may not be quite aware of that yet.
I dont know new averages.
I do know what it takes to beat dungeons though
Again; anything above 20k dps on a 3 mill is more than enough to solo all vet dungeons.
Just sayin
I disagree. While yes, 20K DPS is probably enough, you are assuming the player doing that 20K DPS has a clue, can break free, stay out of stupid, block at the right time, is wearing the right sets, etc... which chances are if they can only do 20K DPS, they probably aren't very good at those other basic things either.
Yeah 20k dps is not the worst but it is low, especially with group buffs/debuffs applied. I guess there are still people who have no idea that 20k dps is on the lower side, not the average side lol.
20k is definitely towards the average side. Vast majority of pugs I have went into were hitting 20-30k. And even when I make a new toon and haven't learned a rotation or gotten good gear or anything like that, I typically can at least hit around 35k just applying some basic principles and that's never not been enough to guarantee that I get a drop on bosses even during events with like 50 people.
I think people who can do endgame content have a very skewed perception of what the rest of the player is doing. If you're able to do vss in a pickup group with your trials guilds with normal reqs, you're already in the top 1% of players.
That's why ZOS keeps the dps check required for non-trial vet clears at around the 20-30k mark. It's what the average player can do.
30k sounds about right for average DPS. If you're LA weaving, then you should be hitting that. If someone isn't hitting that, they're probably not LA weaving or have a bad rotation. Back to the drawing board.
Average dps is not light attack weaving nor is that something even taught to players through non-external means. Average dps has decent gear in non-optimized traits, they aren't light attack weaving, and they have a basic rotation where they throw down a few dots and then use their spammable. Doing that they hit between 20-30k.
Weird, your definition of average DPS definitely differs from mine, and I've been playing since beta. So is 20k what passes for average DPS now a days? If so, how come so many still can't hit it?
Because about 1/3rd of the playerbase is even lower than that.
Wow that's crazy to me considering all of the information to get to at least 30k is out there everywhere. Back in our day all we had for info on how to get better was maybe a forum, and alakazham/thotbot. That's literally all we had haha. Now there are so many ESO webpages, youtube vids, facebook groups, reddit, you name it. It's out there!0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I run a solo build designed specifically for vet dungeons.
It has 50k health
It deals at most 25k dps (23k average)
It has completed vVate and vMA and vDLC dungeons solo.
My point is; if this build at ita meager dps can solo vet DLC dungeons - i dont imagine a NPC giving more dps than this (not even the same amount)
Also @spartaxoxo said; most players arent even hitting 25k dps (I dunno why)1 -
Kwoung✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: ».PigofSteel wrote: »They will take average damage which is around 15k and than give it 1/3 of that so we are expecting around 5k damage.
15K is average damage? Is spamming light attacks all the average player doing? Serious question, since I can get 15K with nothing but light attacks after the last patch, I would hope the "average" player would be using some of their skills and doing closer to 30k. Most of the casual players I know do about 50k now.
That was the entire point of the last patch, raise the low end and lower the high end. Anyone with CP that is still in the 5-10K range at this point, must be mostly afk while playing to do that poorly.
I think that's largely a difference in the personal definition of average that we all have. I personally know players that struggle mightily to get 20K (on real targets, not the Iron Atro) because they...
- Have unoptimized gear
- Have unoptimized CP
- Have a hard time weaving, and/or neglect it entirely
- Have a hard time keeping skills consistently applied
- Have a hard time staying oriented in combat when the vfx kick into superultimateomegaoverdrive
- Have a hard time knowing what to do in combat in general, besides "attack and don't die"
- Are just not that good at video games to begin with
Now, whether or not we should consider these players "average" or not is debatable, but my point is I think a lot of people are thinking of that kind of average, whereas you might be thinking of ~50K DPS players who try to optimize their builds and practice rotations as average. Know what I mean?
Also, don't forget a lot of people's view of "average" is still calibrated for the landscape before this latest update (when the lower end was still substantially lower). CP 2.0 and Flames of Ambition are still fairly new, and a lot of folks need time to adjust and reevaluate their definition of "average" in the new meta. 15K sounds fairly average to me, until recently.
I'll buy that. I pretty much define average as someone who is actually trying, put some thought into their gear and skills and knows how to use them at a basic level for the most part. They haven't perfected weaving, may not have a lot of or properly allotted CP, but aren't simply spamming LA/random skills and calling it a day. But yes, the old average was much lower than the new one and I can understand how many may not be quite aware of that yet.
I dont know new averages.
I do know what it takes to beat dungeons though
Again; anything above 20k dps on a 3 mill is more than enough to solo all vet dungeons.
Just sayin
I disagree. While yes, 20K DPS is probably enough, you are assuming the player doing that 20K DPS has a clue, can break free, stay out of stupid, block at the right time, is wearing the right sets, etc... which chances are if they can only do 20K DPS, they probably aren't very good at those other basic things either.
Yeah 20k dps is not the worst but it is low, especially with group buffs/debuffs applied. I guess there are still people who have no idea that 20k dps is on the lower side, not the average side lol.
20k is definitely towards the average side. Vast majority of pugs I have went into were hitting 20-30k. And even when I make a new toon and haven't learned a rotation or gotten good gear or anything like that, I typically can at least hit around 35k just applying some basic principles and that's never not been enough to guarantee that I get a drop on bosses even during events with like 50 people.
I think people who can do endgame content have a very skewed perception of what the rest of the player is doing. If you're able to do vss in a pickup group with your trials guilds with normal reqs, you're already in the top 1% of players.
That's why ZOS keeps the dps check required for non-trial vet clears at around the 20-30k mark. It's what the average player can do.
30k sounds about right for average DPS. If you're LA weaving, then you should be hitting that. If someone isn't hitting that, they're probably not LA weaving or have a bad rotation. Back to the drawing board.
Average dps is not light attack weaving nor is that something even taught to players through non-external means. Average dps has decent gear in non-optimized traits, they aren't light attack weaving, and they have a basic rotation where they throw down a few dots and then use their spammable. Doing that they hit between 20-30k.
Weird, your definition of average DPS definitely differs from mine, and I've been playing since beta. So is 20k what passes for average DPS now a days? If so, how come so many still can't hit it?
Because about 1/3rd of the playerbase is even lower than that.
Wow that's crazy to me considering all of the information to get to at least 30k is out there everywhere. Back in our day all we had for info on how to get better was maybe a forum, and alakazham/thotbot. That's literally all we had haha. Now there are so many ESO webpages, youtube vids, facebook groups, reddit, you name it. It's out there!
IKR? My wife rolled up a new char, got it to 50, tossed on some random sets and parsed 50K out of the gate completely unoptimized. She actually parsed 35K at level 15 I think it was, and this was *before* the recent damage increase they did with the patch. And no, we are far from end-game vet trial/dungeon runners. We just took a little time to learn how the game works, since we enjoy it so much.Edited by Kwoung on April 6, 2021 9:39PM1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Average player either doesn't use those resources or doesn't follow them closely, which is why pushing for better tutorials is so commonly requested by people who run a lot of PUGs. They just kinda learn as they go. The most they might do is ask in their guilds which armor sets are good and then try to get those.Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: ».PigofSteel wrote: »They will take average damage which is around 15k and than give it 1/3 of that so we are expecting around 5k damage.
15K is average damage? Is spamming light attacks all the average player doing? Serious question, since I can get 15K with nothing but light attacks after the last patch, I would hope the "average" player would be using some of their skills and doing closer to 30k. Most of the casual players I know do about 50k now.
That was the entire point of the last patch, raise the low end and lower the high end. Anyone with CP that is still in the 5-10K range at this point, must be mostly afk while playing to do that poorly.
I think that's largely a difference in the personal definition of average that we all have. I personally know players that struggle mightily to get 20K (on real targets, not the Iron Atro) because they...
- Have unoptimized gear
- Have unoptimized CP
- Have a hard time weaving, and/or neglect it entirely
- Have a hard time keeping skills consistently applied
- Have a hard time staying oriented in combat when the vfx kick into superultimateomegaoverdrive
- Have a hard time knowing what to do in combat in general, besides "attack and don't die"
- Are just not that good at video games to begin with
Now, whether or not we should consider these players "average" or not is debatable, but my point is I think a lot of people are thinking of that kind of average, whereas you might be thinking of ~50K DPS players who try to optimize their builds and practice rotations as average. Know what I mean?
Also, don't forget a lot of people's view of "average" is still calibrated for the landscape before this latest update (when the lower end was still substantially lower). CP 2.0 and Flames of Ambition are still fairly new, and a lot of folks need time to adjust and reevaluate their definition of "average" in the new meta. 15K sounds fairly average to me, until recently.
I'll buy that. I pretty much define average as someone who is actually trying, put some thought into their gear and skills and knows how to use them at a basic level for the most part. They haven't perfected weaving, may not have a lot of or properly allotted CP, but aren't simply spamming LA/random skills and calling it a day. But yes, the old average was much lower than the new one and I can understand how many may not be quite aware of that yet.
I dont know new averages.
I do know what it takes to beat dungeons though
Again; anything above 20k dps on a 3 mill is more than enough to solo all vet dungeons.
Just sayin
I disagree. While yes, 20K DPS is probably enough, you are assuming the player doing that 20K DPS has a clue, can break free, stay out of stupid, block at the right time, is wearing the right sets, etc... which chances are if they can only do 20K DPS, they probably aren't very good at those other basic things either.
Yeah 20k dps is not the worst but it is low, especially with group buffs/debuffs applied. I guess there are still people who have no idea that 20k dps is on the lower side, not the average side lol.
20k is definitely towards the average side. Vast majority of pugs I have went into were hitting 20-30k. And even when I make a new toon and haven't learned a rotation or gotten good gear or anything like that, I typically can at least hit around 35k just applying some basic principles and that's never not been enough to guarantee that I get a drop on bosses even during events with like 50 people.
I think people who can do endgame content have a very skewed perception of what the rest of the player is doing. If you're able to do vss in a pickup group with your trials guilds with normal reqs, you're already in the top 1% of players.
That's why ZOS keeps the dps check required for non-trial vet clears at around the 20-30k mark. It's what the average player can do.
30k sounds about right for average DPS. If you're LA weaving, then you should be hitting that. If someone isn't hitting that, they're probably not LA weaving or have a bad rotation. Back to the drawing board.
Average dps is not light attack weaving nor is that something even taught to players through non-external means. Average dps has decent gear in non-optimized traits, they aren't light attack weaving, and they have a basic rotation where they throw down a few dots and then use their spammable. Doing that they hit between 20-30k.
Weird, your definition of average DPS definitely differs from mine, and I've been playing since beta. So is 20k what passes for average DPS now a days? If so, how come so many still can't hit it?
Because about 1/3rd of the playerbase is even lower than that.
Wow that's crazy to me considering all of the information to get to at least 30k is out there everywhere. Back in our day all we had for info on how to get better was maybe a forum, and alakazham/thotbot. That's literally all we had haha. Now there are so many ESO webpages, youtube vids, facebook groups, reddit, you name it. It's out there!
If you go on the websites, weave, run basic parses, and the like you'll very quickly find that you're already better than most of the players you meet, even if you're not yet good enough to even begin to compare yourself to endgame community.Edited by spartaxoxo on April 6, 2021 10:07PM2 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
Average player either doesn't use those resources or doesn't follow them closely, which is why pushing for better tutorials is so commonly requested by people who run a lot of PUGs. They just kinda learn as they go. The most they might do is ask in their guilds which armor sets are good and then try to get those.Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: ».PigofSteel wrote: »They will take average damage which is around 15k and than give it 1/3 of that so we are expecting around 5k damage.
15K is average damage? Is spamming light attacks all the average player doing? Serious question, since I can get 15K with nothing but light attacks after the last patch, I would hope the "average" player would be using some of their skills and doing closer to 30k. Most of the casual players I know do about 50k now.
That was the entire point of the last patch, raise the low end and lower the high end. Anyone with CP that is still in the 5-10K range at this point, must be mostly afk while playing to do that poorly.
I think that's largely a difference in the personal definition of average that we all have. I personally know players that struggle mightily to get 20K (on real targets, not the Iron Atro) because they...
- Have unoptimized gear
- Have unoptimized CP
- Have a hard time weaving, and/or neglect it entirely
- Have a hard time keeping skills consistently applied
- Have a hard time staying oriented in combat when the vfx kick into superultimateomegaoverdrive
- Have a hard time knowing what to do in combat in general, besides "attack and don't die"
- Are just not that good at video games to begin with
Now, whether or not we should consider these players "average" or not is debatable, but my point is I think a lot of people are thinking of that kind of average, whereas you might be thinking of ~50K DPS players who try to optimize their builds and practice rotations as average. Know what I mean?
Also, don't forget a lot of people's view of "average" is still calibrated for the landscape before this latest update (when the lower end was still substantially lower). CP 2.0 and Flames of Ambition are still fairly new, and a lot of folks need time to adjust and reevaluate their definition of "average" in the new meta. 15K sounds fairly average to me, until recently.
I'll buy that. I pretty much define average as someone who is actually trying, put some thought into their gear and skills and knows how to use them at a basic level for the most part. They haven't perfected weaving, may not have a lot of or properly allotted CP, but aren't simply spamming LA/random skills and calling it a day. But yes, the old average was much lower than the new one and I can understand how many may not be quite aware of that yet.
I dont know new averages.
I do know what it takes to beat dungeons though
Again; anything above 20k dps on a 3 mill is more than enough to solo all vet dungeons.
Just sayin
I disagree. While yes, 20K DPS is probably enough, you are assuming the player doing that 20K DPS has a clue, can break free, stay out of stupid, block at the right time, is wearing the right sets, etc... which chances are if they can only do 20K DPS, they probably aren't very good at those other basic things either.
Yeah 20k dps is not the worst but it is low, especially with group buffs/debuffs applied. I guess there are still people who have no idea that 20k dps is on the lower side, not the average side lol.
20k is definitely towards the average side. Vast majority of pugs I have went into were hitting 20-30k. And even when I make a new toon and haven't learned a rotation or gotten good gear or anything like that, I typically can at least hit around 35k just applying some basic principles and that's never not been enough to guarantee that I get a drop on bosses even during events with like 50 people.
I think people who can do endgame content have a very skewed perception of what the rest of the player is doing. If you're able to do vss in a pickup group with your trials guilds with normal reqs, you're already in the top 1% of players.
That's why ZOS keeps the dps check required for non-trial vet clears at around the 20-30k mark. It's what the average player can do.
30k sounds about right for average DPS. If you're LA weaving, then you should be hitting that. If someone isn't hitting that, they're probably not LA weaving or have a bad rotation. Back to the drawing board.
Average dps is not light attack weaving nor is that something even taught to players through non-external means. Average dps has decent gear in non-optimized traits, they aren't light attack weaving, and they have a basic rotation where they throw down a few dots and then use their spammable. Doing that they hit between 20-30k.
Weird, your definition of average DPS definitely differs from mine, and I've been playing since beta. So is 20k what passes for average DPS now a days? If so, how come so many still can't hit it?
Because about 1/3rd of the playerbase is even lower than that.
Wow that's crazy to me considering all of the information to get to at least 30k is out there everywhere. Back in our day all we had for info on how to get better was maybe a forum, and alakazham/thotbot. That's literally all we had haha. Now there are so many ESO webpages, youtube vids, facebook groups, reddit, you name it. It's out there!
If you go on the websites, run basic parses, and the like you'll very quickly find that you're already better than most of the players you meet, even if you're not yet adequate to even begin to compare yourself to endgame community.
That's so crazy to me, considering all of the resources are right there are out finger tips! Like having an assigned parking spot, but never using and instead always parking in the street. It's right there! Just clicky and read!0 -
Kwoung✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
Average player either doesn't use those resources or doesn't follow them closely, which is why pushing for better tutorials is so commonly requested by people who run a lot of PUGs. They just kinda learn as they go. The most they might do is ask in their guilds which armor sets are good and then try to get those.Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: ».PigofSteel wrote: »They will take average damage which is around 15k and than give it 1/3 of that so we are expecting around 5k damage.
15K is average damage? Is spamming light attacks all the average player doing? Serious question, since I can get 15K with nothing but light attacks after the last patch, I would hope the "average" player would be using some of their skills and doing closer to 30k. Most of the casual players I know do about 50k now.
That was the entire point of the last patch, raise the low end and lower the high end. Anyone with CP that is still in the 5-10K range at this point, must be mostly afk while playing to do that poorly.
I think that's largely a difference in the personal definition of average that we all have. I personally know players that struggle mightily to get 20K (on real targets, not the Iron Atro) because they...
- Have unoptimized gear
- Have unoptimized CP
- Have a hard time weaving, and/or neglect it entirely
- Have a hard time keeping skills consistently applied
- Have a hard time staying oriented in combat when the vfx kick into superultimateomegaoverdrive
- Have a hard time knowing what to do in combat in general, besides "attack and don't die"
- Are just not that good at video games to begin with
Now, whether or not we should consider these players "average" or not is debatable, but my point is I think a lot of people are thinking of that kind of average, whereas you might be thinking of ~50K DPS players who try to optimize their builds and practice rotations as average. Know what I mean?
Also, don't forget a lot of people's view of "average" is still calibrated for the landscape before this latest update (when the lower end was still substantially lower). CP 2.0 and Flames of Ambition are still fairly new, and a lot of folks need time to adjust and reevaluate their definition of "average" in the new meta. 15K sounds fairly average to me, until recently.
I'll buy that. I pretty much define average as someone who is actually trying, put some thought into their gear and skills and knows how to use them at a basic level for the most part. They haven't perfected weaving, may not have a lot of or properly allotted CP, but aren't simply spamming LA/random skills and calling it a day. But yes, the old average was much lower than the new one and I can understand how many may not be quite aware of that yet.
I dont know new averages.
I do know what it takes to beat dungeons though
Again; anything above 20k dps on a 3 mill is more than enough to solo all vet dungeons.
Just sayin
I disagree. While yes, 20K DPS is probably enough, you are assuming the player doing that 20K DPS has a clue, can break free, stay out of stupid, block at the right time, is wearing the right sets, etc... which chances are if they can only do 20K DPS, they probably aren't very good at those other basic things either.
Yeah 20k dps is not the worst but it is low, especially with group buffs/debuffs applied. I guess there are still people who have no idea that 20k dps is on the lower side, not the average side lol.
20k is definitely towards the average side. Vast majority of pugs I have went into were hitting 20-30k. And even when I make a new toon and haven't learned a rotation or gotten good gear or anything like that, I typically can at least hit around 35k just applying some basic principles and that's never not been enough to guarantee that I get a drop on bosses even during events with like 50 people.
I think people who can do endgame content have a very skewed perception of what the rest of the player is doing. If you're able to do vss in a pickup group with your trials guilds with normal reqs, you're already in the top 1% of players.
That's why ZOS keeps the dps check required for non-trial vet clears at around the 20-30k mark. It's what the average player can do.
30k sounds about right for average DPS. If you're LA weaving, then you should be hitting that. If someone isn't hitting that, they're probably not LA weaving or have a bad rotation. Back to the drawing board.
Average dps is not light attack weaving nor is that something even taught to players through non-external means. Average dps has decent gear in non-optimized traits, they aren't light attack weaving, and they have a basic rotation where they throw down a few dots and then use their spammable. Doing that they hit between 20-30k.
Weird, your definition of average DPS definitely differs from mine, and I've been playing since beta. So is 20k what passes for average DPS now a days? If so, how come so many still can't hit it?
Because about 1/3rd of the playerbase is even lower than that.
Wow that's crazy to me considering all of the information to get to at least 30k is out there everywhere. Back in our day all we had for info on how to get better was maybe a forum, and alakazham/thotbot. That's literally all we had haha. Now there are so many ESO webpages, youtube vids, facebook groups, reddit, you name it. It's out there!
If you go on the websites, weave, run basic parses, and the like you'll very quickly find that you're already better than most of the players you meet, even if you're not yet good enough to even begin to compare yourself to endgame community.
Yet in another thread here on page one, many players a trying hard to make a case for harder and more engaging overland content while according to you (and I don't disagree), most people don't have the first clue on how to actually play effectively. Funny how forums are.
0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I agree. But most people just don't want to do much with external stuff when they play. They just want to play the game and figure it out through trial and error. The journey of that is a big part of the fun for them. It's why having done a ton of pugging and helping out in overland and the like, I am a big advocate for better tutorial and less reliance on dps checks for difficulty.Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Average player either doesn't use those resources or doesn't follow them closely, which is why pushing for better tutorials is so commonly requested by people who run a lot of PUGs. They just kinda learn as they go. The most they might do is ask in their guilds which armor sets are good and then try to get those.Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: ».PigofSteel wrote: »They will take average damage which is around 15k and than give it 1/3 of that so we are expecting around 5k damage.
15K is average damage? Is spamming light attacks all the average player doing? Serious question, since I can get 15K with nothing but light attacks after the last patch, I would hope the "average" player would be using some of their skills and doing closer to 30k. Most of the casual players I know do about 50k now.
That was the entire point of the last patch, raise the low end and lower the high end. Anyone with CP that is still in the 5-10K range at this point, must be mostly afk while playing to do that poorly.
I think that's largely a difference in the personal definition of average that we all have. I personally know players that struggle mightily to get 20K (on real targets, not the Iron Atro) because they...
- Have unoptimized gear
- Have unoptimized CP
- Have a hard time weaving, and/or neglect it entirely
- Have a hard time keeping skills consistently applied
- Have a hard time staying oriented in combat when the vfx kick into superultimateomegaoverdrive
- Have a hard time knowing what to do in combat in general, besides "attack and don't die"
- Are just not that good at video games to begin with
Now, whether or not we should consider these players "average" or not is debatable, but my point is I think a lot of people are thinking of that kind of average, whereas you might be thinking of ~50K DPS players who try to optimize their builds and practice rotations as average. Know what I mean?
Also, don't forget a lot of people's view of "average" is still calibrated for the landscape before this latest update (when the lower end was still substantially lower). CP 2.0 and Flames of Ambition are still fairly new, and a lot of folks need time to adjust and reevaluate their definition of "average" in the new meta. 15K sounds fairly average to me, until recently.
I'll buy that. I pretty much define average as someone who is actually trying, put some thought into their gear and skills and knows how to use them at a basic level for the most part. They haven't perfected weaving, may not have a lot of or properly allotted CP, but aren't simply spamming LA/random skills and calling it a day. But yes, the old average was much lower than the new one and I can understand how many may not be quite aware of that yet.
I dont know new averages.
I do know what it takes to beat dungeons though
Again; anything above 20k dps on a 3 mill is more than enough to solo all vet dungeons.
Just sayin
I disagree. While yes, 20K DPS is probably enough, you are assuming the player doing that 20K DPS has a clue, can break free, stay out of stupid, block at the right time, is wearing the right sets, etc... which chances are if they can only do 20K DPS, they probably aren't very good at those other basic things either.
Yeah 20k dps is not the worst but it is low, especially with group buffs/debuffs applied. I guess there are still people who have no idea that 20k dps is on the lower side, not the average side lol.
20k is definitely towards the average side. Vast majority of pugs I have went into were hitting 20-30k. And even when I make a new toon and haven't learned a rotation or gotten good gear or anything like that, I typically can at least hit around 35k just applying some basic principles and that's never not been enough to guarantee that I get a drop on bosses even during events with like 50 people.
I think people who can do endgame content have a very skewed perception of what the rest of the player is doing. If you're able to do vss in a pickup group with your trials guilds with normal reqs, you're already in the top 1% of players.
That's why ZOS keeps the dps check required for non-trial vet clears at around the 20-30k mark. It's what the average player can do.
30k sounds about right for average DPS. If you're LA weaving, then you should be hitting that. If someone isn't hitting that, they're probably not LA weaving or have a bad rotation. Back to the drawing board.
Average dps is not light attack weaving nor is that something even taught to players through non-external means. Average dps has decent gear in non-optimized traits, they aren't light attack weaving, and they have a basic rotation where they throw down a few dots and then use their spammable. Doing that they hit between 20-30k.
Weird, your definition of average DPS definitely differs from mine, and I've been playing since beta. So is 20k what passes for average DPS now a days? If so, how come so many still can't hit it?
Because about 1/3rd of the playerbase is even lower than that.
Wow that's crazy to me considering all of the information to get to at least 30k is out there everywhere. Back in our day all we had for info on how to get better was maybe a forum, and alakazham/thotbot. That's literally all we had haha. Now there are so many ESO webpages, youtube vids, facebook groups, reddit, you name it. It's out there!
If you go on the websites, run basic parses, and the like you'll very quickly find that you're already better than most of the players you meet, even if you're not yet adequate to even begin to compare yourself to endgame community.
That's so crazy to me, considering all of the resources are right there are out finger tips! Like having an assigned parking spot, but never using and instead always parking in the street. It's right there! Just clicky and read!
I think zos's approach of nerfing everyone isn't solving things because it's not addressing the fundamental issue. This game does a very poor job teaching people how to maximize their dps and then punishes them harshly for it. A punishment that only they have to face because those of us who using these guides and those of us who are actually really good at the game aren't troubled by them. We blow past them with ease. The only thing they accomplish is punishing casuals for not knowing information the game itself doesn't even teach.Edited by spartaxoxo on April 6, 2021 10:18PM1 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
I agree. But most people just don't want to do much with external stuff when they play. They just want to play the game and figure it out through trial and error. The journey of that is a big part of the fun for them. It's why having done a ton of pugging and helping out in overland and the like, I am a big advocate for better tutorial and less reliance on dps checks for difficulty.Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Average player either doesn't use those resources or doesn't follow them closely, which is why pushing for better tutorials is so commonly requested by people who run a lot of PUGs. They just kinda learn as they go. The most they might do is ask in their guilds which armor sets are good and then try to get those.Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: ».PigofSteel wrote: »They will take average damage which is around 15k and than give it 1/3 of that so we are expecting around 5k damage.
15K is average damage? Is spamming light attacks all the average player doing? Serious question, since I can get 15K with nothing but light attacks after the last patch, I would hope the "average" player would be using some of their skills and doing closer to 30k. Most of the casual players I know do about 50k now.
That was the entire point of the last patch, raise the low end and lower the high end. Anyone with CP that is still in the 5-10K range at this point, must be mostly afk while playing to do that poorly.
I think that's largely a difference in the personal definition of average that we all have. I personally know players that struggle mightily to get 20K (on real targets, not the Iron Atro) because they...
- Have unoptimized gear
- Have unoptimized CP
- Have a hard time weaving, and/or neglect it entirely
- Have a hard time keeping skills consistently applied
- Have a hard time staying oriented in combat when the vfx kick into superultimateomegaoverdrive
- Have a hard time knowing what to do in combat in general, besides "attack and don't die"
- Are just not that good at video games to begin with
Now, whether or not we should consider these players "average" or not is debatable, but my point is I think a lot of people are thinking of that kind of average, whereas you might be thinking of ~50K DPS players who try to optimize their builds and practice rotations as average. Know what I mean?
Also, don't forget a lot of people's view of "average" is still calibrated for the landscape before this latest update (when the lower end was still substantially lower). CP 2.0 and Flames of Ambition are still fairly new, and a lot of folks need time to adjust and reevaluate their definition of "average" in the new meta. 15K sounds fairly average to me, until recently.
I'll buy that. I pretty much define average as someone who is actually trying, put some thought into their gear and skills and knows how to use them at a basic level for the most part. They haven't perfected weaving, may not have a lot of or properly allotted CP, but aren't simply spamming LA/random skills and calling it a day. But yes, the old average was much lower than the new one and I can understand how many may not be quite aware of that yet.
I dont know new averages.
I do know what it takes to beat dungeons though
Again; anything above 20k dps on a 3 mill is more than enough to solo all vet dungeons.
Just sayin
I disagree. While yes, 20K DPS is probably enough, you are assuming the player doing that 20K DPS has a clue, can break free, stay out of stupid, block at the right time, is wearing the right sets, etc... which chances are if they can only do 20K DPS, they probably aren't very good at those other basic things either.
Yeah 20k dps is not the worst but it is low, especially with group buffs/debuffs applied. I guess there are still people who have no idea that 20k dps is on the lower side, not the average side lol.
20k is definitely towards the average side. Vast majority of pugs I have went into were hitting 20-30k. And even when I make a new toon and haven't learned a rotation or gotten good gear or anything like that, I typically can at least hit around 35k just applying some basic principles and that's never not been enough to guarantee that I get a drop on bosses even during events with like 50 people.
I think people who can do endgame content have a very skewed perception of what the rest of the player is doing. If you're able to do vss in a pickup group with your trials guilds with normal reqs, you're already in the top 1% of players.
That's why ZOS keeps the dps check required for non-trial vet clears at around the 20-30k mark. It's what the average player can do.
30k sounds about right for average DPS. If you're LA weaving, then you should be hitting that. If someone isn't hitting that, they're probably not LA weaving or have a bad rotation. Back to the drawing board.
Average dps is not light attack weaving nor is that something even taught to players through non-external means. Average dps has decent gear in non-optimized traits, they aren't light attack weaving, and they have a basic rotation where they throw down a few dots and then use their spammable. Doing that they hit between 20-30k.
Weird, your definition of average DPS definitely differs from mine, and I've been playing since beta. So is 20k what passes for average DPS now a days? If so, how come so many still can't hit it?
Because about 1/3rd of the playerbase is even lower than that.
Wow that's crazy to me considering all of the information to get to at least 30k is out there everywhere. Back in our day all we had for info on how to get better was maybe a forum, and alakazham/thotbot. That's literally all we had haha. Now there are so many ESO webpages, youtube vids, facebook groups, reddit, you name it. It's out there!
If you go on the websites, run basic parses, and the like you'll very quickly find that you're already better than most of the players you meet, even if you're not yet adequate to even begin to compare yourself to endgame community.
That's so crazy to me, considering all of the resources are right there are out finger tips! Like having an assigned parking spot, but never using and instead always parking in the street. It's right there! Just clicky and read!
I think zos's approach of nerfing everyone isn't solving things because it's not addressing the fundamental issue. This game does a very poor job teaching people how to maximize their dps and then punishes them harshly for it. A punishment that only they have to face because those of us who using these guides and those of us who are actually really good at the game aren't troubled by them. We blow past them with ease. The only thing they accomplish is punishing casuals for not knowing information the game itself doesn't even teach.
Well high DPS players have to suffer for it by having to always carry other players on their back due to being the only one putting in any effort to type a few words into a search bar. I guess the movie Wall-E is coming true, we have begun the devolution process and bare minimums are seen as great victories.0 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Perhaps this is just me being old school, but when a game developer relies on it's fans to fix design issues, I don't blame the players. I blame the developers. Nobody should need to go Alcast or the like, because this stuff should be more readily learnable through trial and error. I don't think it's unreasonable expectation that they can learn by doing.Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
I agree. But most people just don't want to do much with external stuff when they play. They just want to play the game and figure it out through trial and error. The journey of that is a big part of the fun for them. It's why having done a ton of pugging and helping out in overland and the like, I am a big advocate for better tutorial and less reliance on dps checks for difficulty.Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Average player either doesn't use those resources or doesn't follow them closely, which is why pushing for better tutorials is so commonly requested by people who run a lot of PUGs. They just kinda learn as they go. The most they might do is ask in their guilds which armor sets are good and then try to get those.Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: ».PigofSteel wrote: »They will take average damage which is around 15k and than give it 1/3 of that so we are expecting around 5k damage.
15K is average damage? Is spamming light attacks all the average player doing? Serious question, since I can get 15K with nothing but light attacks after the last patch, I would hope the "average" player would be using some of their skills and doing closer to 30k. Most of the casual players I know do about 50k now.
That was the entire point of the last patch, raise the low end and lower the high end. Anyone with CP that is still in the 5-10K range at this point, must be mostly afk while playing to do that poorly.
I think that's largely a difference in the personal definition of average that we all have. I personally know players that struggle mightily to get 20K (on real targets, not the Iron Atro) because they...
- Have unoptimized gear
- Have unoptimized CP
- Have a hard time weaving, and/or neglect it entirely
- Have a hard time keeping skills consistently applied
- Have a hard time staying oriented in combat when the vfx kick into superultimateomegaoverdrive
- Have a hard time knowing what to do in combat in general, besides "attack and don't die"
- Are just not that good at video games to begin with
Now, whether or not we should consider these players "average" or not is debatable, but my point is I think a lot of people are thinking of that kind of average, whereas you might be thinking of ~50K DPS players who try to optimize their builds and practice rotations as average. Know what I mean?
Also, don't forget a lot of people's view of "average" is still calibrated for the landscape before this latest update (when the lower end was still substantially lower). CP 2.0 and Flames of Ambition are still fairly new, and a lot of folks need time to adjust and reevaluate their definition of "average" in the new meta. 15K sounds fairly average to me, until recently.
I'll buy that. I pretty much define average as someone who is actually trying, put some thought into their gear and skills and knows how to use them at a basic level for the most part. They haven't perfected weaving, may not have a lot of or properly allotted CP, but aren't simply spamming LA/random skills and calling it a day. But yes, the old average was much lower than the new one and I can understand how many may not be quite aware of that yet.
I dont know new averages.
I do know what it takes to beat dungeons though
Again; anything above 20k dps on a 3 mill is more than enough to solo all vet dungeons.
Just sayin
I disagree. While yes, 20K DPS is probably enough, you are assuming the player doing that 20K DPS has a clue, can break free, stay out of stupid, block at the right time, is wearing the right sets, etc... which chances are if they can only do 20K DPS, they probably aren't very good at those other basic things either.
Yeah 20k dps is not the worst but it is low, especially with group buffs/debuffs applied. I guess there are still people who have no idea that 20k dps is on the lower side, not the average side lol.
20k is definitely towards the average side. Vast majority of pugs I have went into were hitting 20-30k. And even when I make a new toon and haven't learned a rotation or gotten good gear or anything like that, I typically can at least hit around 35k just applying some basic principles and that's never not been enough to guarantee that I get a drop on bosses even during events with like 50 people.
I think people who can do endgame content have a very skewed perception of what the rest of the player is doing. If you're able to do vss in a pickup group with your trials guilds with normal reqs, you're already in the top 1% of players.
That's why ZOS keeps the dps check required for non-trial vet clears at around the 20-30k mark. It's what the average player can do.
30k sounds about right for average DPS. If you're LA weaving, then you should be hitting that. If someone isn't hitting that, they're probably not LA weaving or have a bad rotation. Back to the drawing board.
Average dps is not light attack weaving nor is that something even taught to players through non-external means. Average dps has decent gear in non-optimized traits, they aren't light attack weaving, and they have a basic rotation where they throw down a few dots and then use their spammable. Doing that they hit between 20-30k.
Weird, your definition of average DPS definitely differs from mine, and I've been playing since beta. So is 20k what passes for average DPS now a days? If so, how come so many still can't hit it?
Because about 1/3rd of the playerbase is even lower than that.
Wow that's crazy to me considering all of the information to get to at least 30k is out there everywhere. Back in our day all we had for info on how to get better was maybe a forum, and alakazham/thotbot. That's literally all we had haha. Now there are so many ESO webpages, youtube vids, facebook groups, reddit, you name it. It's out there!
If you go on the websites, run basic parses, and the like you'll very quickly find that you're already better than most of the players you meet, even if you're not yet adequate to even begin to compare yourself to endgame community.
That's so crazy to me, considering all of the resources are right there are out finger tips! Like having an assigned parking spot, but never using and instead always parking in the street. It's right there! Just clicky and read!
I think zos's approach of nerfing everyone isn't solving things because it's not addressing the fundamental issue. This game does a very poor job teaching people how to maximize their dps and then punishes them harshly for it. A punishment that only they have to face because those of us who using these guides and those of us who are actually really good at the game aren't troubled by them. We blow past them with ease. The only thing they accomplish is punishing casuals for not knowing information the game itself doesn't even teach.
Well high DPS players have to suffer for it by having to always carry other players on their back due to being the only one putting in any effort to type a few words into a search bar. I guess the movie Wall-E is coming true, we have begun the devolution process and bare minimums are seen as great victories.
That's just me though. And I was one of the ones writing guides back in the day. (Not for this game)Edited by spartaxoxo on April 6, 2021 10:29PM2 -
Kwoung✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
I agree. But most people just don't want to do much with external stuff when they play. They just want to play the game and figure it out through trial and error. The journey of that is a big part of the fun for them. It's why having done a ton of pugging and helping out in overland and the like, I am a big advocate for better tutorial and less reliance on dps checks for difficulty.Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Average player either doesn't use those resources or doesn't follow them closely, which is why pushing for better tutorials is so commonly requested by people who run a lot of PUGs. They just kinda learn as they go. The most they might do is ask in their guilds which armor sets are good and then try to get those.Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: ».PigofSteel wrote: »They will take average damage which is around 15k and than give it 1/3 of that so we are expecting around 5k damage.
15K is average damage? Is spamming light attacks all the average player doing? Serious question, since I can get 15K with nothing but light attacks after the last patch, I would hope the "average" player would be using some of their skills and doing closer to 30k. Most of the casual players I know do about 50k now.
That was the entire point of the last patch, raise the low end and lower the high end. Anyone with CP that is still in the 5-10K range at this point, must be mostly afk while playing to do that poorly.
I think that's largely a difference in the personal definition of average that we all have. I personally know players that struggle mightily to get 20K (on real targets, not the Iron Atro) because they...
- Have unoptimized gear
- Have unoptimized CP
- Have a hard time weaving, and/or neglect it entirely
- Have a hard time keeping skills consistently applied
- Have a hard time staying oriented in combat when the vfx kick into superultimateomegaoverdrive
- Have a hard time knowing what to do in combat in general, besides "attack and don't die"
- Are just not that good at video games to begin with
Now, whether or not we should consider these players "average" or not is debatable, but my point is I think a lot of people are thinking of that kind of average, whereas you might be thinking of ~50K DPS players who try to optimize their builds and practice rotations as average. Know what I mean?
Also, don't forget a lot of people's view of "average" is still calibrated for the landscape before this latest update (when the lower end was still substantially lower). CP 2.0 and Flames of Ambition are still fairly new, and a lot of folks need time to adjust and reevaluate their definition of "average" in the new meta. 15K sounds fairly average to me, until recently.
I'll buy that. I pretty much define average as someone who is actually trying, put some thought into their gear and skills and knows how to use them at a basic level for the most part. They haven't perfected weaving, may not have a lot of or properly allotted CP, but aren't simply spamming LA/random skills and calling it a day. But yes, the old average was much lower than the new one and I can understand how many may not be quite aware of that yet.
I dont know new averages.
I do know what it takes to beat dungeons though
Again; anything above 20k dps on a 3 mill is more than enough to solo all vet dungeons.
Just sayin
I disagree. While yes, 20K DPS is probably enough, you are assuming the player doing that 20K DPS has a clue, can break free, stay out of stupid, block at the right time, is wearing the right sets, etc... which chances are if they can only do 20K DPS, they probably aren't very good at those other basic things either.
Yeah 20k dps is not the worst but it is low, especially with group buffs/debuffs applied. I guess there are still people who have no idea that 20k dps is on the lower side, not the average side lol.
20k is definitely towards the average side. Vast majority of pugs I have went into were hitting 20-30k. And even when I make a new toon and haven't learned a rotation or gotten good gear or anything like that, I typically can at least hit around 35k just applying some basic principles and that's never not been enough to guarantee that I get a drop on bosses even during events with like 50 people.
I think people who can do endgame content have a very skewed perception of what the rest of the player is doing. If you're able to do vss in a pickup group with your trials guilds with normal reqs, you're already in the top 1% of players.
That's why ZOS keeps the dps check required for non-trial vet clears at around the 20-30k mark. It's what the average player can do.
30k sounds about right for average DPS. If you're LA weaving, then you should be hitting that. If someone isn't hitting that, they're probably not LA weaving or have a bad rotation. Back to the drawing board.
Average dps is not light attack weaving nor is that something even taught to players through non-external means. Average dps has decent gear in non-optimized traits, they aren't light attack weaving, and they have a basic rotation where they throw down a few dots and then use their spammable. Doing that they hit between 20-30k.
Weird, your definition of average DPS definitely differs from mine, and I've been playing since beta. So is 20k what passes for average DPS now a days? If so, how come so many still can't hit it?
Because about 1/3rd of the playerbase is even lower than that.
Wow that's crazy to me considering all of the information to get to at least 30k is out there everywhere. Back in our day all we had for info on how to get better was maybe a forum, and alakazham/thotbot. That's literally all we had haha. Now there are so many ESO webpages, youtube vids, facebook groups, reddit, you name it. It's out there!
If you go on the websites, run basic parses, and the like you'll very quickly find that you're already better than most of the players you meet, even if you're not yet adequate to even begin to compare yourself to endgame community.
That's so crazy to me, considering all of the resources are right there are out finger tips! Like having an assigned parking spot, but never using and instead always parking in the street. It's right there! Just clicky and read!
I think zos's approach of nerfing everyone isn't solving things because it's not addressing the fundamental issue. This game does a very poor job teaching people how to maximize their dps and then punishes them harshly for it. A punishment that only they have to face because those of us who using these guides and those of us who are actually really good at the game aren't troubled by them. We blow past them with ease. The only thing they accomplish is punishing casuals for not knowing information the game itself doesn't even teach.
Well high DPS players have to suffer for it by having to always carry other players on their back due to being the only one putting in any effort to type a few words into a search bar. I guess the movie Wall-E is coming true, we have begun the devolution process and bare minimums are seen as great victories.
It started when awarding prizes for participation and having "graduation ceremonies" for every grade of school became a thing.2 -
codierussell✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Average player either doesn't use those resources or doesn't follow them closely, which is why pushing for better tutorials is so commonly requested by people who run a lot of PUGs. They just kinda learn as they go. The most they might do is ask in their guilds which armor sets are good and then try to get those.
If you go on the websites, weave, run basic parses, and the like you'll very quickly find that you're already better than most of the players you meet, even if you're not yet good enough to even begin to compare yourself to endgame community.
Honestly, better tutorials wouldn't change anything on PS4 NA. Players just generally do not care to get better and are left wondering why people leave the group when a DLC dungeon pops up from the random daily. From my experience about 80% of players will respond with "**** you elitist, I will play how I want to" when trying to explain mechanics, good gear sets or whatever else you try to tell them. 10% of players listen then say "well x streamer says this on their video", not knowing that x streamer doesn't do any PVE content or can't even clear any actually medium difficulty content (you know this streamer lol). Then at last we have the last 10% that will actually listen and start figuring out how the game works, but these players most likely already have the idea of what to do just need help fine tuning the rotation, needs gear, or just needs to hear it from more than one person.
One thing I will say is that the endgame community is pretty bad for helping. Most guilds that you join will be super toxic and make no effort to actually help, then players end up in social guilds and are told the completely wrong information, then when they come back to an endgame guild the cycle continues. Not all guilds are like this, my main guild has completed all content and we regularly help players get better and even do learning progs with a few core members in hard mode trials like VAS, VMOL and VSS. But more often then not players come in thinking they know everything, argue with us and not even being able to beat Fungal Grotto 1 and get s*** on.1 -
Goregrinder✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
I agree. But most people just don't want to do much with external stuff when they play. They just want to play the game and figure it out through trial and error. The journey of that is a big part of the fun for them. It's why having done a ton of pugging and helping out in overland and the like, I am a big advocate for better tutorial and less reliance on dps checks for difficulty.Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
Average player either doesn't use those resources or doesn't follow them closely, which is why pushing for better tutorials is so commonly requested by people who run a lot of PUGs. They just kinda learn as they go. The most they might do is ask in their guilds which armor sets are good and then try to get those.Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: ».PigofSteel wrote: »They will take average damage which is around 15k and than give it 1/3 of that so we are expecting around 5k damage.
15K is average damage? Is spamming light attacks all the average player doing? Serious question, since I can get 15K with nothing but light attacks after the last patch, I would hope the "average" player would be using some of their skills and doing closer to 30k. Most of the casual players I know do about 50k now.
That was the entire point of the last patch, raise the low end and lower the high end. Anyone with CP that is still in the 5-10K range at this point, must be mostly afk while playing to do that poorly.
I think that's largely a difference in the personal definition of average that we all have. I personally know players that struggle mightily to get 20K (on real targets, not the Iron Atro) because they...
- Have unoptimized gear
- Have unoptimized CP
- Have a hard time weaving, and/or neglect it entirely
- Have a hard time keeping skills consistently applied
- Have a hard time staying oriented in combat when the vfx kick into superultimateomegaoverdrive
- Have a hard time knowing what to do in combat in general, besides "attack and don't die"
- Are just not that good at video games to begin with
Now, whether or not we should consider these players "average" or not is debatable, but my point is I think a lot of people are thinking of that kind of average, whereas you might be thinking of ~50K DPS players who try to optimize their builds and practice rotations as average. Know what I mean?
Also, don't forget a lot of people's view of "average" is still calibrated for the landscape before this latest update (when the lower end was still substantially lower). CP 2.0 and Flames of Ambition are still fairly new, and a lot of folks need time to adjust and reevaluate their definition of "average" in the new meta. 15K sounds fairly average to me, until recently.
I'll buy that. I pretty much define average as someone who is actually trying, put some thought into their gear and skills and knows how to use them at a basic level for the most part. They haven't perfected weaving, may not have a lot of or properly allotted CP, but aren't simply spamming LA/random skills and calling it a day. But yes, the old average was much lower than the new one and I can understand how many may not be quite aware of that yet.
I dont know new averages.
I do know what it takes to beat dungeons though
Again; anything above 20k dps on a 3 mill is more than enough to solo all vet dungeons.
Just sayin
I disagree. While yes, 20K DPS is probably enough, you are assuming the player doing that 20K DPS has a clue, can break free, stay out of stupid, block at the right time, is wearing the right sets, etc... which chances are if they can only do 20K DPS, they probably aren't very good at those other basic things either.
Yeah 20k dps is not the worst but it is low, especially with group buffs/debuffs applied. I guess there are still people who have no idea that 20k dps is on the lower side, not the average side lol.
20k is definitely towards the average side. Vast majority of pugs I have went into were hitting 20-30k. And even when I make a new toon and haven't learned a rotation or gotten good gear or anything like that, I typically can at least hit around 35k just applying some basic principles and that's never not been enough to guarantee that I get a drop on bosses even during events with like 50 people.
I think people who can do endgame content have a very skewed perception of what the rest of the player is doing. If you're able to do vss in a pickup group with your trials guilds with normal reqs, you're already in the top 1% of players.
That's why ZOS keeps the dps check required for non-trial vet clears at around the 20-30k mark. It's what the average player can do.
30k sounds about right for average DPS. If you're LA weaving, then you should be hitting that. If someone isn't hitting that, they're probably not LA weaving or have a bad rotation. Back to the drawing board.
Average dps is not light attack weaving nor is that something even taught to players through non-external means. Average dps has decent gear in non-optimized traits, they aren't light attack weaving, and they have a basic rotation where they throw down a few dots and then use their spammable. Doing that they hit between 20-30k.
Weird, your definition of average DPS definitely differs from mine, and I've been playing since beta. So is 20k what passes for average DPS now a days? If so, how come so many still can't hit it?
Because about 1/3rd of the playerbase is even lower than that.
Wow that's crazy to me considering all of the information to get to at least 30k is out there everywhere. Back in our day all we had for info on how to get better was maybe a forum, and alakazham/thotbot. That's literally all we had haha. Now there are so many ESO webpages, youtube vids, facebook groups, reddit, you name it. It's out there!
If you go on the websites, run basic parses, and the like you'll very quickly find that you're already better than most of the players you meet, even if you're not yet adequate to even begin to compare yourself to endgame community.
That's so crazy to me, considering all of the resources are right there are out finger tips! Like having an assigned parking spot, but never using and instead always parking in the street. It's right there! Just clicky and read!
I think zos's approach of nerfing everyone isn't solving things because it's not addressing the fundamental issue. This game does a very poor job teaching people how to maximize their dps and then punishes them harshly for it. A punishment that only they have to face because those of us who using these guides and those of us who are actually really good at the game aren't troubled by them. We blow past them with ease. The only thing they accomplish is punishing casuals for not knowing information the game itself doesn't even teach.
Well high DPS players have to suffer for it by having to always carry other players on their back due to being the only one putting in any effort to type a few words into a search bar. I guess the movie Wall-E is coming true, we have begun the devolution process and bare minimums are seen as great victories.
It started when awarding prizes for participation and having "graduation ceremonies" for every grade of school became a thing.
Unfortunately you are not wrong about that. No one is a winner if everyone is a winner.0 -
Jacozilla✭✭✭✭✭I have zero expectations companions will be anything more than dead on arrival due to nerfs on or after launch due to player complaints, or zos will deliver them as-is basically useless dps (e.g. quest npc dumb and quest npc dps, like 1-2k)
However, that said - as pure logic, if an actual bonafide expansion feature billed as Companions can’t do significantly more dps than a class pet, then it not only makes zero sense but makes them DOA.
My magsorc pet does ~7.5k dps on a 94k overall parse. Basically the standard 8% expected of tormentor, and scamp pulls about same 7.5k dps (combining the passive melee and activation dps).
This is from a pet that requires 2 bar slots invested. Other classes have single slot pet skills that do same or more 8%+ of parse.
Therefore, of Companion can’t do 10k+, they are nothing more than an extra pet dps. They would need at least 15k to be worth two pets. I doubt this will happen, more like 2-5k. If by miracle companions start out 20k+, then the inevitable nerf calls will see it nuked down like thrassian strangler was (e.g. after zos has made all their expansion and dlc sales based on the great companion, then nerfed.2 -
Kwoung✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I have zero expectations companions will be anything more than dead on arrival due to nerfs on or after launch due to player complaints, or zos will deliver them as-is basically useless dps (e.g. quest npc dumb and quest npc dps, like 1-2k)
However, that said - as pure logic, if an actual bonafide expansion feature billed as Companions can’t do significantly more dps than a class pet, then it not only makes zero sense but makes them DOA.
My magsorc pet does ~7.5k dps on a 94k overall parse. Basically the standard 8% expected of tormentor, and scamp pulls about same 7.5k dps (combining the passive melee and activation dps).
This is from a pet that requires 2 bar slots invested. Other classes have single slot pet skills that do same or more 8%+ of parse.
Therefore, of Companion can’t do 10k+, they are nothing more than an extra pet dps. They would need at least 15k to be worth two pets. I doubt this will happen, more like 2-5k. If by miracle companions start out 20k+, then the inevitable nerf calls will see it nuked down like thrassian strangler was (e.g. after zos has made all their expansion and dlc sales based on the great companion, then nerfed.
I am still bitter about the Thrassian Strangler mythic. It was fun to use, high risk of dying but high reward of DPS in situations where you could get enough killing blows quickly to use it. But instead of just blocking it's use in trials where it was abused to get the leaderboards, they nerfed it to the ground rendering it useless for everyone, and killing the fun it gave.4 -
Jacozilla✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: ».PigofSteel wrote: »They will take average damage which is around 15k and than give it 1/3 of that so we are expecting around 5k damage.
15K is average damage? Is spamming light attacks all the average player doing? Serious question, since I can get 15K with nothing but light attacks after the last patch, I would hope the "average" player would be using some of their skills and doing closer to 30k. Most of the casual players I know do about 50k now.
That was the entire point of the last patch, raise the low end and lower the high end. Anyone with CP that is still in the 5-10K range at this point, must be mostly afk while playing to do that poorly.
I think that's largely a difference in the personal definition of average that we all have. I personally know players that struggle mightily to get 20K (on real targets, not the Iron Atro) because they...
- Have unoptimized gear
- Have unoptimized CP
- Have a hard time weaving, and/or neglect it entirely
- Have a hard time keeping skills consistently applied
- Have a hard time staying oriented in combat when the vfx kick into superultimateomegaoverdrive
- Have a hard time knowing what to do in combat in general, besides "attack and don't die"
- Are just not that good at video games to begin with
Now, whether or not we should consider these players "average" or not is debatable, but my point is I think a lot of people are thinking of that kind of average, whereas you might be thinking of ~50K DPS players who try to optimize their builds and practice rotations as average. Know what I mean?
Also, don't forget a lot of people's view of "average" is still calibrated for the landscape before this latest update (when the lower end was still substantially lower). CP 2.0 and Flames of Ambition are still fairly new, and a lot of folks need time to adjust and reevaluate their definition of "average" in the new meta. 15K sounds fairly average to me, until recently.
I'll buy that. I pretty much define average as someone who is actually trying, put some thought into their gear and skills and knows how to use them at a basic level for the most part. They haven't perfected weaving, may not have a lot of or properly allotted CP, but aren't simply spamming LA/random skills and calling it a day. But yes, the old average was much lower than the new one and I can understand how many may not be quite aware of that yet.
I dont know new averages.
I do know what it takes to beat dungeons though
Again; anything above 20k dps on a 3 mill is more than enough to solo all vet dungeons.
Just sayin
I disagree. While yes, 20K DPS is probably enough, you are assuming the player doing that 20K DPS has a clue, can break free, stay out of stupid, block at the right time, is wearing the right sets, etc... which chances are if they can only do 20K DPS, they probably aren't very good at those other basic things either.
Yeah 20k dps is not the worst but it is low, especially with group buffs/debuffs applied. I guess there are still people who have no idea that 20k dps is on the lower side, not the average side lol.
20k is definitely towards the average side. Vast majority of pugs I have went into were hitting 20-30k. And even when I make a new toon and haven't learned a rotation or gotten good gear or anything like that, I typically can at least hit around 35k just applying some basic principles and that's never not been enough to guarantee that I get a drop on bosses even during events with like 50 people.
I think people who can do endgame content have a very skewed perception of what the rest of the player is doing. If you're able to do vss in a pickup group with your trials guilds with normal reqs, you're already in the top 1% of players.
That's why ZOS keeps the dps check required for non-trial vet clears at around the 20-30k mark. It's what the average player can do.
30k sounds about right for average DPS. If you're LA weaving, then you should be hitting that. If someone isn't hitting that, they're probably not LA weaving or have a bad rotation. Back to the drawing board.
Average dps is not light attack weaving nor is that something even taught to players through non-external means. Average dps has decent gear in non-optimized traits, they aren't light attack weaving, and they have a basic rotation where they throw down a few dots and then use their spammable and occasionally heavy attack. Doing that they hit between 20-30k.
You'll start consistently out damaging them at 35k and you'll start to get occasional compliments on how fast you kill at like 40k+
Don’t disagree at all with your main points re avg dps, but just a correction re: your statement LA weaving is not taught to players through non-external means - it has been quite a few updates since level advisor came out and since that time LA weaving is mentioned and recommended as way to increase dps.
It is shown both in load screens (which might be missed) but much more obviously so for new players it is specifically loaded into the level up advisor tips as you level up and claim your advisor loot.
I’m not going to equate this to watching and learning from a YouTube weaving tutorial, but you can’t say it isn’t taught in game anymore - it is and prob has lead ppl to look up videos based on reading those tips1 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭the amount of elitism on the last few pages is both funny and sad.
1. LA weaving that adviser is teaching is NOT the animation canceling variety. it just says that you should be using light attacks in between the skills and NOTHING about how to time those skills
2. timing those skills is the crux of the problem. you want to know how people, even with all the guides out there, even while trying to get better - are not getting better? TIMING. it requires both reflexes/dexterity AND practice. I do not for a moment believe that someone just... got that kind of dps without any practice. they are either gaming savant or an exaggerated lie. its like claiming " well I got this piano and I was able to play this intermediate level piece of music pretty much after figuring out where the notes and stuff are" nope. doesn't work that way.
you all need a reality check.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***7 -
Jacozilla✭✭✭✭✭the amount of elitism on the last few pages is both funny and sad.
1. LA weaving that adviser is teaching is NOT the animation canceling variety. it just says that you should be using light attacks in between the skills and NOTHING about how to time those skills
2. timing those skills is the crux of the problem. you want to know how people, even with all the guides out there, even while trying to get better - are not getting better? TIMING. it requires both reflexes/dexterity AND practice. I do not for a moment believe that someone just... got that kind of dps without any practice. they are either gaming savant or an exaggerated lie. its like claiming " well I got this piano and I was able to play this intermediate level piece of music pretty much after figuring out where the notes and stuff are" nope. doesn't work that way.
you all need a reality check.
And you need a reality check if ALL mastered skills, game or IRL, doesn't have a start somewhere. The biggest end achievement is nonetheless started by one small step, then another, then another. Mastery of a subject isn't yes or no, on or off, it is the slow accumulation of small steps.
Do you really think anyone reasonable would load into level advisor the entirety of teaching LA weaving? And you must not have read the level advisor tip because it specifically IS teaching ani-canceling. The first step part of it true, but nonetheless the start of the road.
It specifically mentions to LA between the skill activation - this is EXACTLY teaching skill canceling (e.g. form of animation canceling using a skill to cancel the LA animation). There are obviously many more steps but what use would it be to try teaching bar swap canceling, skill queuing in rotation, etc before the basis LA-skill cancel weave?
So yes, level advisor IS teaching LA weaving and is getting new players on the first step road to canceling the LA animation by the very tip it gives. It further clues the user into looking up more about the topic, either here or other sources, if they choose to. If they don't great, no fault in that, but if they do - they got a tip to do so from level advisor which until it came out, made no mention in game.
2- timing is based on practice, in order to practice you first have to even know about it - that's all the level advisor does - it isn't supposed to turn noobs into experts, simply inform them of the option to practice down that road. And the excuse of dexterity doesnt fly.
Yes, if you have an actual legit medical issue - sure, that's a block. But so is any other endeavor where you have a medical issue. Aside from that, the timing you are talking about is literally a mouse click - yes it takes practice but the demands of coordination and timing - both in perception and execution - is hardly more than basic mouse usage. As you said, the key is the timing, not the actual 'can i click this mouse button 1x a second'.
The reality check is you're making exaggerated excuses and outright disingenuous claims - level advisor DOES teach the basic starter to weaving, no one has claimed it teaches expert topic of it, but the tip to know about it and if desired, to learn more about it.0 -
remosito✭✭✭✭✭a lot of players would rather deinstall the game instead of standing in front of a freaking dummy for hours training their rotation and animation cancelling timings...
rightfully so. Nothing more tedious and fun killing than that. which is why all my chars are tanks/healers...
ZOS really missed the mark on the recent dps adjustments. What needs fixing more than low cp vs high cp dps difference. Is perfect rotation andtimings dps vs beginner rotation and timing dps.
It should make a differnce. It is hard work in the end. But as is. the difference is ridiculously high.
anyway... sorry for going offtangent...
point is. even if average skyrim player would have learned from external sources about animation canceling, rotations, best sets and all that. A lot wouldn't do the dummy humping for hours to themselves...
ShutYerTrap (selectively mute NPC dialogues (stuga, companions); displayleads (antiquity leads location); UndauntedPledgeQueuer (small daily undaunted dungeon queuer window)2 -
Kwoung✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭a lot of players would rather deinstall the game instead of standing in front of a freaking dummy for hours training their rotation and animation cancelling timings...
rightfully so. Nothing more tedious and fun killing than that. which is why all my chars are tanks/healers...
ZOS really missed the mark on the recent dps adjustments. What needs fixing more than low cp vs high cp dps difference. Is perfect rotation andtimings dps vs beginner rotation and timing dps.
It should make a differnce. It is hard work in the end. But as is. the difference is ridiculously high.
anyway... sorry for going offtangent...
point is. even if average skyrim player would have learned from external sources about animation canceling, rotations, best sets and all that. A lot wouldn't do the dummy humping for hours to themselves...
They don't really have to practice it on a dummy though. It would benefit a great number of players if they simply practiced it throughout their normal gameplay. They would probably pleasantly surprise themselves on how much more damage they can do and how much easier some things become, by simply learning how to use the weaving combat system ESO has put in place (which I personally dislike, but it is what it is).
I agree wholeheartedly with you that the massive difference between being able to nail a rotation and to not be able to though, really needs looked at. The difference in many cases is a 30-50K DPS difference between getting it perfect, and not. Heck just screwing up your rotation a few times during a parse can be a huge negative hit.1