Goregrinder wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Eedat wrote: »

Except there isn't this concept of traffic in ESO. You can teleport anywhere on the continent in seconds. You dont need to pass through a specific area or take a specific route through a major city to get places. There needs to be a reason to get people to go there. People go shopping in Mourn because they know the traders are stacked

But the traders are "stacked" because that was a high-traffic area. It's circular at this point - the various "main" locations (Stormhaven, Grahtwood, Mourn, Rawl'ka) got the 'better' traders because they were the "main" locations that everyone went to do things (writs/Undaunted enclave/etc). And then they had the better traders, so people went there for that. etc, etc, etc.

Just because we can "teleport anywhere on the continent in seconds" doesn't mean that there aren't particular high-traffic areas. The main cities, with various amenities (Undaunted, Guilds, etc) along with larger numbers of Traders, will always be higher traffic than That Random One Trader Out In The Swamp. The casual player looking to buy something from a trader will go to one of the main cities, they're not going to trawl through a dozen lesser traders out in the sticks.

(and even the person who checks something on TTC will likely end up going to one of the main hubs - after all, that little trader out in the swamp, less people visit - so there's less chance of someone running TTC to visit and upload their listings to the website.)

It's the chicken vs the egg argument, and people are wondering who came first. Having played since beta, I would say that from what I have seen in ESO was that players mainly hung around major cities. Which was the reason players started using certain traders, not the other way around.

Yeah, if I'm going to have a yard sale, I'm not posting the signs in my backyard, where nobody will see them.

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

The thing that "gets me" about the "supply and demand" explanation excuse for pricing is that if you search for a given item on TTC, or simply go straight to the guild traders to search, you can see vast, incredible gaps between the lowest prices and the highest prices-- in some cases, hundreds of thousands of gold. No one is ever going to convince me that these insane variances in pricing are being dictated by "supply and demand."

Also, telling players to just go out and "get more gold" is not a "reasonable" answer. Yes, players can work harder to acquire more gold. But it could take a player a long time to acquire the gold to pay some of the outrageously high prices I've seen, and it's just plain stupid for anyone to actually support those high prices by blithely paying those large sums of gold being asked for. These types of excuses are just skirting the real culprit-- human greed.

I don't think there's a "conspiracy," although it does seem like certain guilds have a monopoly on guild traders. And the system does seem to be designed to encourage trading guilds to encourage their members to price everything as high as possible, so the members can make their "weekly sales quota" and generate more gold for the guild. But it's greedy sellers who want to charge outrageous prices, and rich buyers who are willing to pay those prices, who are the real engineers of this situation.

Personally, I just walk away from anything that's outrageously overpriced, and shop around for the lowest price. And if I can't find a price that I think is reasonable, I just walk away and check back for the item some other day. Sure, I've got lots of gold I can spend. And sure, I will happily spend huge amounts of gold on high-priced items if their prices are fixed-- for example, a large house that can be purchased with in-game gold. But I'm not going to support players' greed by paying millions, or even "just" hundreds of thousands, for items that don't have fixed prices, which can be bought for much, much, much less gold if I shop around and wait patiently for it to be offered at more reasonable prices.

I'd be careful using TTC. It shows what people listed items for, not what they actually sold for. I don't trust it because of past experiences of people low-balling a listing, then pulling it and relisting it higher after the lower price showed up on TTC. If the kiosk was out of the way, I'll guess people who went there for the low-ball price ended up buying at the higher, just so they wouldn't have to keep hunting the item they wanted.

Eedat wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Eedat wrote: »

Nagastani wrote: »

Eedat wrote: »

Nagastani wrote: »

Eedat wrote: »

Nagastani wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Nagastani wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Unlike people who claim it is just 'supply and demand shift', I was right all along

I understand zos want to sell crown houses and stuff.

Here is my original solution, lower all gold gain.
Remove treasure in antique, remove daily quest gold.
Half the pvp campaign reward, half the trial plunder.

And here was another person's suggestion.
Remove transmute crystal for reconstruction, change it to gold.

Its too late for all that. ZOS isn't going to do anything of the sort anyways.

You want to fix it? I can tell you how, but first we need to start with the problem.

The problem is the Guilds are too big to fail and can charge whatever they want... and they sometimes do. And by this time in the game's lifespan we have our major trade guilds who are the players in the economy and they have no real competition. That's the problem.

The solution is to go back and rework how Kiosk Vendors are setup. Because the price to 'rent' a weekly vendor is out of sight and new Trade Guilds can't compete for space, thus only the big really profitable guilds can only compete amongst themselves.

We need more competition, the vendors should be reworked to abolish a weekly bid and set this up to encourage growth of new Trade Guilds with new ideas who don't need to bring in billions of gold every week in order to compete.

Until this changes 'they' are in charge and will continue to be and there is nothing anyone can do about it except farm your own mats.

Trading works like anything else in the game. The more time you put in the better the results. Players doing trials don't jump right into hard mode no death speed runs on vet. They join a progression guild and learn what is expected of them. Same exact thing with trading. The very top trading guilds often have room for new members because not everybody is able to trade at a level that makes being in a top tier trade guild worth while. Good news is there are more than 200 vendor spots in the game and many of those are taken by guilds that have no requirements to join. It is a myth that you can't make a decent amount of gold at these traders. I am on PC though so Tamriel Trade Centre helps some with the out of the way traders getting traffic.
I would like to see all the traders that are in a location alone get one more trader added to give more incentive to visit those places. If we put another trader in the thieves dens and beside wayshrines that have nearby traders that I think would help a lot.
A new trade guild is going to struggle just like any other specialty guild will struggle. For many players in those top tier guilds that is their end game. They send most their time in game concentrating on selling. Social guilds can and do get traders so I know if a new trade guild is persistent they can get a spot most weeks.

The big trade guilds have to compete with every other guild out there that has a trader. They have the advantage of being in a high traffic area but that doesn't mean they are not competing with the little guys. Outside of the high traffic areas it is a good idea to list most items a bit below what they are selling for in the high traffic spots but rare items will sell for same price whatever the location.

I hear what you're saying but it seems like it really doesn't.

No Trade Guild of any kind gets a Vendor unless they can compete on the weekly bid, which even for those little outlaw holes in the wall is outrageously priced and fiercely fought over. No Kiosk equals no Trade Guild in the long run and looks bad for them not to have one. Big Guilds are fine, hey I'm not against anyone making money. However, they have the capital, the resources, the loyalties of folks so they can make the money to buy the bid, which even for them has become insanely expensive.

See what I'm saying? The weekly bidding mechanic is terrible for everyone. And a new Guild, unless it's being financed by one of the big Guilds, which they have no real reason to expand, cannot buy a Kiosk and thus they cannot grow naturally. ESO economy is like a nation where the big banks are in charge and they have money, they are powerful, but the system is dying because there is no room for new growth outside of them, no room for real competition and thus your prices on everything are out of sight.

Comes as no surprise to me.

The bidding mechanic is easily largest gold sink and fierce competition ensures as much gold gets flushed down the toilet as possible each week. Trader bids easily flush hundreds of millions of gold out of the economy every week. Getting rid of it would lead to crazy hyoerinflation

It makes no sense for a new or small trade guild to get a premium spot. Those spots are considered premium only because people know the guilds there have had dedicated teams working for years building a competitive guild store. If those locations were suddenly filled with new guilds with far below average stores then people wouldn't go there to shop anyway.

New guilds start at smaller locations and grow from there. Getting a new guild off the ground is going to require a capital investment and a lot of dedication.

People think that large trade guilds only stay afloat because they're too big to fail which is completely wrong. They have a team of people putting in hours of work every week to raise money for the bid because taxes alone aren't even close to enough to afford the bid. They organize events, raffles, auctions, etc every single week and have done so for many years.

Who are you or I to decide that?

And what is a premium spot? That could all change with a new system and that is the idea here.

Then get a trader at a reasonable price in a more reasonable location? If you dont care about a premium spot than this is a non issue. If you want a premium spot then you have to put forth the effort and make good decisions to get there. You aren't going to get what others have put literal years of effort into maintaining overnight. The current bid system is actually fantastic at countering inflation and is self regulating. The more gold that is flowing around the higher the bids go and the more gold that gets pumped out. Flat fees that anyone can afford is an awful system in comparison that will cause long term problems

Reasonable according to whom? None of it is reasonable anywhere. Perhaps for you, perhaps for some Guilds it might considered reasonable. For a new Trade Guild starting out... none of this is reasonable, not anywhere in the game currently.

The flat fees are for rent. Which would actually be variable depending on the size of the guild, not to exceed 500k.

And you say it would be awful.

How awful would it be compared to what is now? Indeed it would be awful for some because over the long term you're going to have to lower prices to sell and would ensure every market has enough competition instead of uhh 4 or 5 of the same Guilds doing the same thing every week. In 'their' same premium location.

You seem to have this backwards. Those guilds are what make the spot premium, not the other way around lol. The guilds are the premium. If you replaced every trader in Mourn with random new guilds with bad stores then it wouldn't be a premium spot and people wouldn't go there to shop like they do now. If you want your guild to succeed, you need to build up a pool of good traders who will fill the trader with desirable items other players want. This takes time and years of dedication which is what others have done and continue to do. You aren't going to get what others have put years of effort into doing just because you want it. You have to put that effort in too.

I'm going to have to disagree with this assessment. A spot isn't valuable because of the guild, it's valuable because of the traffic through it. A high traffic area, such as someone's earlier example of a downtown location, will be more valuable than a low traffic area, the edge of town, from the same example. How desirable a location is is how we end up with "high rent districts"...

Except there isn't this concept of traffic in ESO. You can teleport anywhere on the continent in seconds. You dont need to pass through a specific area or take a specific route through a major city to get places. There needs to be a reason to get people to go there. People go shopping in Mourn because they know the traders are stacked

but ... there is. for a long while Belkarth was THE best location. why? because high level crafting writs were there, you had to complete them there. between that and Craglorn being the only play to farm Nirn in, and that a whole bunch of trials are there, so it became THE location to find trial pugs - you had guaranteed increased traffic. eventually ZoS changed how crafting writs worked and you weren't stuck in belkarth completing the highest level ones, you could chose your location now. Capitol cities and Rawl'ka became THE destinations (though Belkarth is still nice, as its its still a decent place to do writs, and its still THE place to find trial pugs/farm nirn). Rawk'ka because of its convenient design with traders and bank being right at the wayshrine, Capitol cities because..... drumroll - that's where you pick up pledges! and since convenience IS a factor, Mournhould became the most desirable location. traders AND crafting dailies are located around the shrine, and bank and pledges are just down the road. Elden room and Wayrest are not as convenient, so they are cheaper, but they are still prime locations with acess to pledges (and master writ turn ins) and people do use them a lot so they are desirable.

Vivec is the best crafting area in a game (IMO), Alinor has traders surrounding the wayshrine, and so on. Coldharbour has weekly lux vendor and you typically ride past the traders to get to it. I have lost count how many times I have stopped there to check for listings, cause i was already there. Furthermore - cities usually have larger trader hubs, so they cost a little more then smaller towns with only 2, maybe 3 traders. both cities and towns are often quest hubs - so they get more traffic then middle of the road trader at a wayshrine.

and this... is how traffic is built. the guild doesn't last in a prime location because they are not selling enough to justify it. but prime location is not dependent on the guild, its dependent on what that location offers to the players other then guild traders. most people don't have time hopping around, looking for bargains. having acess to 5- 8 different traders is better then only having acess to one or 2 when it comes to efficient shopping. having that location be at the same spot where you are grabbing your dailies? even better.

and that is also why you HAVE to work up to a better trader. you have to build your chest, you have to get members who sell a lot, and you have to do that without large minimums. does it sound hard? yes. but... you can also sell just fine in not a prime location. the guild I started out with on US had their trader originally in Sentinel. minimum reflected it and was easy to reach, but I also still got plenty of sales. last I checked that guild was getting a regular kiosk in Elden root (I eventually left them to make room for other guilds, but I wasn't their top seller either) the guild I'm in on EU is not even a trading guild. we don't get a trader every week. but we STILL get one some of the time, and while my sales there do not match my Mournhold sales - I still sell when the trader is there. sometimes we even get pretty decent locations in larger cities. and that is with the guild that is NOT focused on trading. it IS possible to break into trading. guilds in Mournhold today, are not exactly the same guilds that were there a year ago. sometimes they are not even the same traders week to week. it just takes work and dedication. a LOT of both. if you are not willing to put in that effort, that dedication? you don't deserve a prime location.

edited to add. I type too slowly and too much. ah well. point still stands.

robertthebard wrote: »

Eedat wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Eedat wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Eedat wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Eedat wrote: »

Nagastani wrote: »

Eedat wrote: »

Nagastani wrote: »

Eedat wrote: »

Nagastani wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Nagastani wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Unlike people who claim it is just 'supply and demand shift', I was right all along

I understand zos want to sell crown houses and stuff.

Here is my original solution, lower all gold gain.
Remove treasure in antique, remove daily quest gold.
Half the pvp campaign reward, half the trial plunder.

And here was another person's suggestion.
Remove transmute crystal for reconstruction, change it to gold.

Its too late for all that. ZOS isn't going to do anything of the sort anyways.

You want to fix it? I can tell you how, but first we need to start with the problem.

The problem is the Guilds are too big to fail and can charge whatever they want... and they sometimes do. And by this time in the game's lifespan we have our major trade guilds who are the players in the economy and they have no real competition. That's the problem.

The solution is to go back and rework how Kiosk Vendors are setup. Because the price to 'rent' a weekly vendor is out of sight and new Trade Guilds can't compete for space, thus only the big really profitable guilds can only compete amongst themselves.

We need more competition, the vendors should be reworked to abolish a weekly bid and set this up to encourage growth of new Trade Guilds with new ideas who don't need to bring in billions of gold every week in order to compete.

Until this changes 'they' are in charge and will continue to be and there is nothing anyone can do about it except farm your own mats.

Trading works like anything else in the game. The more time you put in the better the results. Players doing trials don't jump right into hard mode no death speed runs on vet. They join a progression guild and learn what is expected of them. Same exact thing with trading. The very top trading guilds often have room for new members because not everybody is able to trade at a level that makes being in a top tier trade guild worth while. Good news is there are more than 200 vendor spots in the game and many of those are taken by guilds that have no requirements to join. It is a myth that you can't make a decent amount of gold at these traders. I am on PC though so Tamriel Trade Centre helps some with the out of the way traders getting traffic.
I would like to see all the traders that are in a location alone get one more trader added to give more incentive to visit those places. If we put another trader in the thieves dens and beside wayshrines that have nearby traders that I think would help a lot.
A new trade guild is going to struggle just like any other specialty guild will struggle. For many players in those top tier guilds that is their end game. They send most their time in game concentrating on selling. Social guilds can and do get traders so I know if a new trade guild is persistent they can get a spot most weeks.

The big trade guilds have to compete with every other guild out there that has a trader. They have the advantage of being in a high traffic area but that doesn't mean they are not competing with the little guys. Outside of the high traffic areas it is a good idea to list most items a bit below what they are selling for in the high traffic spots but rare items will sell for same price whatever the location.

I hear what you're saying but it seems like it really doesn't.

No Trade Guild of any kind gets a Vendor unless they can compete on the weekly bid, which even for those little outlaw holes in the wall is outrageously priced and fiercely fought over. No Kiosk equals no Trade Guild in the long run and looks bad for them not to have one. Big Guilds are fine, hey I'm not against anyone making money. However, they have the capital, the resources, the loyalties of folks so they can make the money to buy the bid, which even for them has become insanely expensive.

See what I'm saying? The weekly bidding mechanic is terrible for everyone. And a new Guild, unless it's being financed by one of the big Guilds, which they have no real reason to expand, cannot buy a Kiosk and thus they cannot grow naturally. ESO economy is like a nation where the big banks are in charge and they have money, they are powerful, but the system is dying because there is no room for new growth outside of them, no room for real competition and thus your prices on everything are out of sight.

Comes as no surprise to me.

The bidding mechanic is easily largest gold sink and fierce competition ensures as much gold gets flushed down the toilet as possible each week. Trader bids easily flush hundreds of millions of gold out of the economy every week. Getting rid of it would lead to crazy hyoerinflation

It makes no sense for a new or small trade guild to get a premium spot. Those spots are considered premium only because people know the guilds there have had dedicated teams working for years building a competitive guild store. If those locations were suddenly filled with new guilds with far below average stores then people wouldn't go there to shop anyway.

New guilds start at smaller locations and grow from there. Getting a new guild off the ground is going to require a capital investment and a lot of dedication.

People think that large trade guilds only stay afloat because they're too big to fail which is completely wrong. They have a team of people putting in hours of work every week to raise money for the bid because taxes alone aren't even close to enough to afford the bid. They organize events, raffles, auctions, etc every single week and have done so for many years.

Who are you or I to decide that?

And what is a premium spot? That could all change with a new system and that is the idea here.

Then get a trader at a reasonable price in a more reasonable location? If you dont care about a premium spot than this is a non issue. If you want a premium spot then you have to put forth the effort and make good decisions to get there. You aren't going to get what others have put literal years of effort into maintaining overnight. The current bid system is actually fantastic at countering inflation and is self regulating. The more gold that is flowing around the higher the bids go and the more gold that gets pumped out. Flat fees that anyone can afford is an awful system in comparison that will cause long term problems

Reasonable according to whom? None of it is reasonable anywhere. Perhaps for you, perhaps for some Guilds it might considered reasonable. For a new Trade Guild starting out... none of this is reasonable, not anywhere in the game currently.

The flat fees are for rent. Which would actually be variable depending on the size of the guild, not to exceed 500k.

And you say it would be awful.

How awful would it be compared to what is now? Indeed it would be awful for some because over the long term you're going to have to lower prices to sell and would ensure every market has enough competition instead of uhh 4 or 5 of the same Guilds doing the same thing every week. In 'their' same premium location.

You seem to have this backwards. Those guilds are what make the spot premium, not the other way around lol. The guilds are the premium. If you replaced every trader in Mourn with random new guilds with bad stores then it wouldn't be a premium spot and people wouldn't go there to shop like they do now. If you want your guild to succeed, you need to build up a pool of good traders who will fill the trader with desirable items other players want. This takes time and years of dedication which is what others have done and continue to do. You aren't going to get what others have put years of effort into doing just because you want it. You have to put that effort in too.

I'm going to have to disagree with this assessment. A spot isn't valuable because of the guild, it's valuable because of the traffic through it. A high traffic area, such as someone's earlier example of a downtown location, will be more valuable than a low traffic area, the edge of town, from the same example. How desirable a location is is how we end up with "high rent districts"...

Except there isn't this concept of traffic in ESO. You can teleport anywhere on the continent in seconds. You dont need to pass through a specific area or take a specific route through a major city to get places. There needs to be a reason to get people to go there. People go shopping in Mourn because they know the traders are stacked

Then no spots should be all that valuable.

No. I just said the traders bring in the value. Thats why the bids of various locations change over time. On PC-NA, Rawl'kha used to be the most valuable spot. But there was a lot of fighting to get one of the 5 traders there to the point where a few of the big guilds left Rawl to find more stable traders. Then the value of a Rawl trader fell drastically because a few of the best stores left. A couple of them went to Mourn and a couple went to Vivec. Not coincidentally, the value of traders at these locations starting going up as soon as the big traders moved in. Now Rawl is significantly cheaper while Mourn and Vivec are more expensive. Vivec actually used to be pretty cheap and now it's tied with Mourn as the most expensive. But hey, must be purely coincidence lol.

Nice snip job, I guess? Maybe your own arguments were too much?

You: Spots are only valuable because of the guilds in them.
Also you: There is no such thing as traffic, because you can teleport anywhere. Paraphrased
Also you: Mourn is popular because all the traders are lumped together and people will go there. Also paraphrased.
Me: So Mourn is popular because lots of people will go there.
You: Snips that out because it's inconvenient to your argument?

Lmao are you ok? Let me break this down for you. People go to Mourn to shop BECAUSE OF the traders that are there. If the those traders were not there, there would not be the traffic it currently has there. Once enough good traders bring in traffic, other guild want in on their piece of the pie which starts the competition. This drives prices up. This continues until only the guilds who generate the most revenue can remain there. The guilds that can generate the most revenue are going to be the ones who generate the most sales. You generate the most sales by having the most competitive guild stores.

This is made crystal clear by having some knowledge of what happens when traders leave a city. I was in a Rawl guild when the exodus of Rawl happened. I was also friends with a GM of a more casual trade guild in Vivec that got pushed out once a couple big traders started bringing in more traffic which lead to a drastic increase in price. It's not a coincidence that their trade bid remained stable for a long time then suddenly started rapidly climbing to the roof once a big trader or two made their way in

Pro tip: If a lot of people will go to an area because of a high concentration of available traders, it's a high traffic area.

Totally wrong. there are plenty of non-dlc cities that have the same number of traders as Mournhold, Belkarth, Rawlka, Vivec City that are NOT high-end trading spots.

It's quality that matters. Not quantity.

remosito wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Eedat wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Eedat wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Eedat wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

Eedat wrote: »

Nagastani wrote: »

Eedat wrote: »

Nagastani wrote: »

Eedat wrote: »

Nagastani wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Nagastani wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Unlike people who claim it is just 'supply and demand shift', I was right all along

I understand zos want to sell crown houses and stuff.

Here is my original solution, lower all gold gain.
Remove treasure in antique, remove daily quest gold.
Half the pvp campaign reward, half the trial plunder.

And here was another person's suggestion.
Remove transmute crystal for reconstruction, change it to gold.

Its too late for all that. ZOS isn't going to do anything of the sort anyways.

You want to fix it? I can tell you how, but first we need to start with the problem.

The problem is the Guilds are too big to fail and can charge whatever they want... and they sometimes do. And by this time in the game's lifespan we have our major trade guilds who are the players in the economy and they have no real competition. That's the problem.

The solution is to go back and rework how Kiosk Vendors are setup. Because the price to 'rent' a weekly vendor is out of sight and new Trade Guilds can't compete for space, thus only the big really profitable guilds can only compete amongst themselves.

We need more competition, the vendors should be reworked to abolish a weekly bid and set this up to encourage growth of new Trade Guilds with new ideas who don't need to bring in billions of gold every week in order to compete.

Until this changes 'they' are in charge and will continue to be and there is nothing anyone can do about it except farm your own mats.

Trading works like anything else in the game. The more time you put in the better the results. Players doing trials don't jump right into hard mode no death speed runs on vet. They join a progression guild and learn what is expected of them. Same exact thing with trading. The very top trading guilds often have room for new members because not everybody is able to trade at a level that makes being in a top tier trade guild worth while. Good news is there are more than 200 vendor spots in the game and many of those are taken by guilds that have no requirements to join. It is a myth that you can't make a decent amount of gold at these traders. I am on PC though so Tamriel Trade Centre helps some with the out of the way traders getting traffic.
I would like to see all the traders that are in a location alone get one more trader added to give more incentive to visit those places. If we put another trader in the thieves dens and beside wayshrines that have nearby traders that I think would help a lot.
A new trade guild is going to struggle just like any other specialty guild will struggle. For many players in those top tier guilds that is their end game. They send most their time in game concentrating on selling. Social guilds can and do get traders so I know if a new trade guild is persistent they can get a spot most weeks.

The big trade guilds have to compete with every other guild out there that has a trader. They have the advantage of being in a high traffic area but that doesn't mean they are not competing with the little guys. Outside of the high traffic areas it is a good idea to list most items a bit below what they are selling for in the high traffic spots but rare items will sell for same price whatever the location.

I hear what you're saying but it seems like it really doesn't.

No Trade Guild of any kind gets a Vendor unless they can compete on the weekly bid, which even for those little outlaw holes in the wall is outrageously priced and fiercely fought over. No Kiosk equals no Trade Guild in the long run and looks bad for them not to have one. Big Guilds are fine, hey I'm not against anyone making money. However, they have the capital, the resources, the loyalties of folks so they can make the money to buy the bid, which even for them has become insanely expensive.

See what I'm saying? The weekly bidding mechanic is terrible for everyone. And a new Guild, unless it's being financed by one of the big Guilds, which they have no real reason to expand, cannot buy a Kiosk and thus they cannot grow naturally. ESO economy is like a nation where the big banks are in charge and they have money, they are powerful, but the system is dying because there is no room for new growth outside of them, no room for real competition and thus your prices on everything are out of sight.

Comes as no surprise to me.

The bidding mechanic is easily largest gold sink and fierce competition ensures as much gold gets flushed down the toilet as possible each week. Trader bids easily flush hundreds of millions of gold out of the economy every week. Getting rid of it would lead to crazy hyoerinflation

It makes no sense for a new or small trade guild to get a premium spot. Those spots are considered premium only because people know the guilds there have had dedicated teams working for years building a competitive guild store. If those locations were suddenly filled with new guilds with far below average stores then people wouldn't go there to shop anyway.

New guilds start at smaller locations and grow from there. Getting a new guild off the ground is going to require a capital investment and a lot of dedication.

People think that large trade guilds only stay afloat because they're too big to fail which is completely wrong. They have a team of people putting in hours of work every week to raise money for the bid because taxes alone aren't even close to enough to afford the bid. They organize events, raffles, auctions, etc every single week and have done so for many years.

Who are you or I to decide that?

And what is a premium spot? That could all change with a new system and that is the idea here.

Then get a trader at a reasonable price in a more reasonable location? If you dont care about a premium spot than this is a non issue. If you want a premium spot then you have to put forth the effort and make good decisions to get there. You aren't going to get what others have put literal years of effort into maintaining overnight. The current bid system is actually fantastic at countering inflation and is self regulating. The more gold that is flowing around the higher the bids go and the more gold that gets pumped out. Flat fees that anyone can afford is an awful system in comparison that will cause long term problems

Reasonable according to whom? None of it is reasonable anywhere. Perhaps for you, perhaps for some Guilds it might considered reasonable. For a new Trade Guild starting out... none of this is reasonable, not anywhere in the game currently.

The flat fees are for rent. Which would actually be variable depending on the size of the guild, not to exceed 500k.

And you say it would be awful.

How awful would it be compared to what is now? Indeed it would be awful for some because over the long term you're going to have to lower prices to sell and would ensure every market has enough competition instead of uhh 4 or 5 of the same Guilds doing the same thing every week. In 'their' same premium location.

You seem to have this backwards. Those guilds are what make the spot premium, not the other way around lol. The guilds are the premium. If you replaced every trader in Mourn with random new guilds with bad stores then it wouldn't be a premium spot and people wouldn't go there to shop like they do now. If you want your guild to succeed, you need to build up a pool of good traders who will fill the trader with desirable items other players want. This takes time and years of dedication which is what others have done and continue to do. You aren't going to get what others have put years of effort into doing just because you want it. You have to put that effort in too.

I'm going to have to disagree with this assessment. A spot isn't valuable because of the guild, it's valuable because of the traffic through it. A high traffic area, such as someone's earlier example of a downtown location, will be more valuable than a low traffic area, the edge of town, from the same example. How desirable a location is is how we end up with "high rent districts"...

Except there isn't this concept of traffic in ESO. You can teleport anywhere on the continent in seconds. You dont need to pass through a specific area or take a specific route through a major city to get places. There needs to be a reason to get people to go there. People go shopping in Mourn because they know the traders are stacked

Then no spots should be all that valuable.

No. I just said the traders bring in the value. Thats why the bids of various locations change over time. On PC-NA, Rawl'kha used to be the most valuable spot. But there was a lot of fighting to get one of the 5 traders there to the point where a few of the big guilds left Rawl to find more stable traders. Then the value of a Rawl trader fell drastically because a few of the best stores left. A couple of them went to Mourn and a couple went to Vivec. Not coincidentally, the value of traders at these locations starting going up as soon as the big traders moved in. Now Rawl is significantly cheaper while Mourn and Vivec are more expensive. Vivec actually used to be pretty cheap and now it's tied with Mourn as the most expensive. But hey, must be purely coincidence lol.

Nice snip job, I guess? Maybe your own arguments were too much?

You: Spots are only valuable because of the guilds in them.
Also you: There is no such thing as traffic, because you can teleport anywhere. Paraphrased
Also you: Mourn is popular because all the traders are lumped together and people will go there. Also paraphrased.
Me: So Mourn is popular because lots of people will go there.
You: Snips that out because it's inconvenient to your argument?

Lmao are you ok? Let me break this down for you. People go to Mourn to shop BECAUSE OF the traders that are there. If the those traders were not there, there would not be the traffic it currently has there. Once enough good traders bring in traffic, other guild want in on their piece of the pie which starts the competition. This drives prices up. This continues until only the guilds who generate the most revenue can remain there. The guilds that can generate the most revenue are going to be the ones who generate the most sales. You generate the most sales by having the most competitive guild stores.

This is made crystal clear by having some knowledge of what happens when traders leave a city. I was in a Rawl guild when the exodus of Rawl happened. I was also friends with a GM of a more casual trade guild in Vivec that got pushed out once a couple big traders started bringing in more traffic which lead to a drastic increase in price. It's not a coincidence that their trade bid remained stable for a long time then suddenly started rapidly climbing to the roof once a big trader or two made their way in

Pro tip: If a lot of people will go to an area because of a high concentration of available traders, it's a high traffic area.

Totally wrong. there are plenty of non-dlc cities that have the same number of traders as Mournhold, Belkarth, Rawlka, Vivec City that are NOT high-end trading spots.

It's quality that matters. Not quantity.

Hmm, and it seems that at least some of these were listed as desirable areas because there's lots of people there. Just read a really long post about why, for Belkarth. So when writs were changed to be done anywhere, Belkarth fell off, because there weren't as many people there, eh?

Again, cherry picking what you think you can reply to doesn't help your argument. In regard to your previous post to this one, Trader does not equal Guild. Any guild that can win the bid can own a trader. So unless you're talking your specific guild, yeah, I'm not buying it. What I am beginning to get is a "we have to protect our spot" vibe. That's cool, I'm not in competition for your spot, so you can keep it. But this misconception that people only go to Mourn, for example, because of what guilds own the traders, instead of a high concentration of traders, yeah, again, not buying it.

iksde wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Nagastani wrote: »

Inaya wrote: »

Nagastani wrote: »

Inaya wrote: »

A new trade guild is just like any new small business. It takes time to grow before you can compete with larger more established businesses. "Management" must learn how and be as dedicated as management of the larger businesses. The better the management team the better growth. Expecting a new trading guild to compete with an established one is just silly.

Similarly, accumulating gold is a learning process. When I first started all my gold came from quests, writs and selling to vendors. After a few months I had accumalated almost a million then joined a small trading guild. It took MONTHS for me to learn how to sell, what to sell and when. Almost 2 years later, I'm in one of the larger trading guilds, established in Grahtwood, and sell 500k to a little over a million a week. I do the occasional flip but mostly I farm (getting lucky on a pattern once in awhile..but I still always use the first one I get no matter the price at the time and only sell dupes) and decon. Something anyone can do. I'm not rich with just a little over 18 million but it allows me to drop a million at the lux vendor, furnish my housing by supporting trade guilds and other players with my furnishing purchases and I will NEVER pay more than something is worth TO ME! I have gold because like in real life I do not live beyond my means.

Asking for pricing to be regulated by an outside entity will NOT solve a problem that doesn't exist.

No one is talking about price regulation we're talking about rent regulation. You pay a reasonable fee to rent the hall and then it's up to you to dance in it.

The Guild can establish whatever prices it wants and shall be compared to it's peers.

But the hall should be rentable by everyone and not owned by a few, which is exactly the problem that exists now and has existed for years.

The traders ARE available to every trade guild and none are "owned". Trade guild must grow into the prime trade spots just like the guilds who are in them did!

How do you figure? So tell me where your spot is, my Trade Guild has lots to sell and we need access to the market. We only have 500k but lots of things to sell. We just don't have uhh between 2 and 20 million to purchase your bid

So I guess my Guild is done because we just don't make enough gold and we don't make enough because we can't sell our goods and we can't sell our goods because we can't bid on a Kiosk and we can't bid on a Kiosk because the price is so high only a few Guilds can afford it and the cycle continues.

I'm sorry but that is not healthy competition. And the bid precludes every Guild having access to a Vendor.

[snip]

[snip]

Just like in real life, if you want to get ahead the only way you’re getting big enough to compete with an established monolith is to have a billionaire invest in your store. If you cannot provide enough to convince a billionaire to invest then your store isn’t valuable enough to compete with the established powerhouse.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

best argument ever!
nad we play game for what? to have fun of playing some escape from real world or just to play life simulator with real economy not being an economist

do I really need to have high school knowledge about economy just to play game and be able to have gold in game in order to play it how I would want?

for next step we need also to pay monthly rent for every home we have and add tax to literally everything we are selling to just vedors, not only form guild traders if we are that level
and tbh it yould be great additional gold sink for already rich players who are making more gold to have that many homes at once

1 - You might play the game for some other reason but many people enjoy “economic PVP”.

2 - You can play the game however you want but if you choose to spend all of your play time doing one activity don’t be upset that some people have chosen to spend their time at others. I spend at least 30 minutes every time I log in doing economic stuff before I get 1 point of XP. Some times I don’t get to do anything I want to do because I only have 30 minutes so I choose to do what I believe I need to do.

3 - You likely do need a high school level of knowledge to compete at the economy. College is preferred but relative business experience can be a substitute. Seriously, do you have any concept of the amount of IT people that play ESO? This isn’t Hello Kitty Island Adventure. Legit college educated people have been grinding the ESO economy for like six years now.

4 - We do pay taxes on everything we sell at the traders already. Many other games charge you daily rent for properties. I know GTA does for example, in the form of utilities.

JKorr wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

The thing that "gets me" about the "supply and demand" explanation excuse for pricing is that if you search for a given item on TTC, or simply go straight to the guild traders to search, you can see vast, incredible gaps between the lowest prices and the highest prices-- in some cases, hundreds of thousands of gold. No one is ever going to convince me that these insane variances in pricing are being dictated by "supply and demand."

Also, telling players to just go out and "get more gold" is not a "reasonable" answer. Yes, players can work harder to acquire more gold. But it could take a player a long time to acquire the gold to pay some of the outrageously high prices I've seen, and it's just plain stupid for anyone to actually support those high prices by blithely paying those large sums of gold being asked for. These types of excuses are just skirting the real culprit-- human greed.

I don't think there's a "conspiracy," although it does seem like certain guilds have a monopoly on guild traders. And the system does seem to be designed to encourage trading guilds to encourage their members to price everything as high as possible, so the members can make their "weekly sales quota" and generate more gold for the guild. But it's greedy sellers who want to charge outrageous prices, and rich buyers who are willing to pay those prices, who are the real engineers of this situation.

Personally, I just walk away from anything that's outrageously overpriced, and shop around for the lowest price. And if I can't find a price that I think is reasonable, I just walk away and check back for the item some other day. Sure, I've got lots of gold I can spend. And sure, I will happily spend huge amounts of gold on high-priced items if their prices are fixed-- for example, a large house that can be purchased with in-game gold. But I'm not going to support players' greed by paying millions, or even "just" hundreds of thousands, for items that don't have fixed prices, which can be bought for much, much, much less gold if I shop around and wait patiently for it to be offered at more reasonable prices.

I'd be careful using TTC. It shows what people listed items for, not what they actually sold for. I don't trust it because of past experiences of people low-balling a listing, then pulling it and relisting it higher after the lower price showed up on TTC. If the kiosk was out of the way, I'll guess people who went there for the low-ball price ended up buying at the higher, just so they wouldn't have to keep hunting the item they wanted.

an whats problem with TTC as you see in it what and for how much items are listed? you just can track, you can see what for how much is listed to try to get cheapest without paying to much
if you have found something already at guild trader which interessed you, you can check it on TTC for how much other these items are listed and you know if it is worth buying that in current trader you are searching or not and jsut go to other with better offer

You can check prices, yes. However if someone lists Ancestral Reach Chests at 12500 gold, and you trek off to the hinterlands to get that "bargain" you actually find at the trader Ancestral Reach Chests for 125k, because the seller did a bait and switch. So you have a choice, buy the motif at 125k, or go back to hunting again for a cheaper price.

MM at least shows the actual "sold for" price. Granted only for guilds you belong to, but its actual sales, not bait and switch scams.

I have never found this type of scam, always when I was looking for something and it was really cheap I was not even bothering with it if it had already some hours as it was 90% sure it is sold already that cheap or I was just going to check it and I got it or I didnt get this that cheap, I just look for items until this price I noticed from TTC, I dont look further as it is no reason for

robertthebard wrote: »

But this misconception that people only go to Mourn, for example, because of what guilds own the traders, instead of a high concentration of traders, yeah, again, not buying it.

I just told you it is what I do. And I REALLY doubt it is just me. So aint no misconception.

I go to Mourn, Belkarth, Rawlka, Grahtwood because of the actual trading guilds stationed there. Because they are good and have stuff. And good prices.

And I dont go to shadowfen, Malabal Tor, Greenshade and all the other cities. Which have the same number of spots. Because the trading guilds there are just not as good.

If all the Mournhold Traders pack their bags and move to Malabal Tor. I'll start going there. And stop going to Mournhold.

Simple as that.

It's the trading guilds that make a spot.

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Nagastani wrote: »

Inaya wrote: »

Nagastani wrote: »

Inaya wrote: »

A new trade guild is just like any new small business. It takes time to grow before you can compete with larger more established businesses. "Management" must learn how and be as dedicated as management of the larger businesses. The better the management team the better growth. Expecting a new trading guild to compete with an established one is just silly.

Similarly, accumulating gold is a learning process. When I first started all my gold came from quests, writs and selling to vendors. After a few months I had accumalated almost a million then joined a small trading guild. It took MONTHS for me to learn how to sell, what to sell and when. Almost 2 years later, I'm in one of the larger trading guilds, established in Grahtwood, and sell 500k to a little over a million a week. I do the occasional flip but mostly I farm (getting lucky on a pattern once in awhile..but I still always use the first one I get no matter the price at the time and only sell dupes) and decon. Something anyone can do. I'm not rich with just a little over 18 million but it allows me to drop a million at the lux vendor, furnish my housing by supporting trade guilds and other players with my furnishing purchases and I will NEVER pay more than something is worth TO ME! I have gold because like in real life I do not live beyond my means.

Asking for pricing to be regulated by an outside entity will NOT solve a problem that doesn't exist.

No one is talking about price regulation we're talking about rent regulation. You pay a reasonable fee to rent the hall and then it's up to you to dance in it.

The Guild can establish whatever prices it wants and shall be compared to it's peers.

But the hall should be rentable by everyone and not owned by a few, which is exactly the problem that exists now and has existed for years.

The traders ARE available to every trade guild and none are "owned". Trade guild must grow into the prime trade spots just like the guilds who are in them did!

How do you figure? So tell me where your spot is, my Trade Guild has lots to sell and we need access to the market. We only have 500k but lots of things to sell. We just don't have uhh between 2 and 20 million to purchase your bid

So I guess my Guild is done because we just don't make enough gold and we don't make enough because we can't sell our goods and we can't sell our goods because we can't bid on a Kiosk and we can't bid on a Kiosk because the price is so high only a few Guilds can afford it and the cycle continues.

I'm sorry but that is not healthy competition. And the bid precludes every Guild having access to a Vendor.

[snip]

[snip]

Just like in real life, if you want to get ahead the only way you’re getting big enough to compete with an established monolith is to have a billionaire invest in your store. If you cannot provide enough to convince a billionaire to invest then your store isn’t valuable enough to compete with the established powerhouse.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

best argument ever!
nad we play game for what? to have fun of playing some escape from real world or just to play life simulator with real economy not being an economist

do I really need to have high school knowledge about economy just to play game and be able to have gold in game in order to play it how I would want?

for next step we need also to pay monthly rent for every home we have and add tax to literally everything we are selling to just vedors, not only form guild traders if we are that level
and tbh it yould be great additional gold sink for already rich players who are making more gold to have that many homes at once

1 - You might play the game for some other reason but many people enjoy “economic PVP”.

2 - You can play the game however you want but if you choose to spend all of your play time doing one activity don’t be upset that some people have chosen to spend their time at others. I spend at least 30 minutes every time I log in doing economic stuff before I get 1 point of XP. Some times I don’t get to do anything I want to do because I only have 30 minutes so I choose to do what I believe I need to do.

3 - You likely do need a high school level of knowledge to compete at the economy. College is preferred but relative business experience can be a substitute. Seriously, do you have any concept of the amount of IT people that play ESO? This isn’t Hello Kitty Island Adventure. Legit college educated people have been grinding the ESO economy for like six years now.

4 - We do pay taxes on everything we sell at the traders already. Many other games charge you daily rent for properties. I know GTA does for example, in the form of utilities.

and not everyone, not even most of players for sure love economic game in game, most people just want to buy or sell something and play game, what you are writing is that you would want to force entirely game system, economic to need from everyone and high school economic lvl to be able to do anything, even basics in trading here to have bere minimum, basics to play game, to get what is needed for it

sorry but feel free if you like this that much to play trading minigame here but leave its basics to be avaible for everyone to sell or buy things in decent prices to play game without need to plan and rething literally every move with trading
not most of players love to spend their play time with trading....you know....we have so much content in game anyway, dungs, zones, trials etc...trading is not the only option for most players here and it shouldnt be locked from other players behind knowledge from highs school of economic profile, efficient tradings in game shouldnt be restricted only for people taught about economics and for players who dot mind, who like to do this and plan, think very much about this

You are more then welcome to spend your time on dungeons, zones and trials. You are more than welcome to never leave Cyrodiil or the Imperial City. You are more than welcome to spend your entire playtime in a bar in Shadowfen role-playing as The Lusty Argonian Maid. It’s your game, play as you want.

But for you to expect that someone who has put no effort into learning the ins and outs of the ESO economy to be on equal footing with someone who breaths it is ridiculous. It’s no different than joining a Trial filled with CP1000 players with 14 CP and expecting the same results. That’s laughable.

You are also in no way locked out from the economy if you choose to actively avoid it. Just walk up to any NPC vendor and sell your stuff at cost. 74 gold for this, 81 gold for that.

It’s not my problem that I’ve memorized the standard prices of the items I buy and sell. It’s your problem for focusing 100% on what you enjoy the most. Hate to break it to you but success in an MMO often requires a lot of time sunk into boring stuff.

so players like me who just want to sell their stuff and forget about ir or buy something and forget should be cut off from player trading system yes? we should everything sell just to vendor and farm ourselves becasue we didnt went and passed economic high school to have privilage for trading on decent level with other players, we as players who want simple buying selling for whet we need we should sell items for 10% of their price and buy at 150% of their price because we dont have privilage of earning gold via trading with other players in game becasue we didnt pass and economic high school so we dont know anything about selling and buying things in game, gotcha, next time before I list an item for sell I will study real economics how what works or just trash it to vendor becasue Im unlearned, Im not economic businessman

iksde wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Nagastani wrote: »

Inaya wrote: »

Nagastani wrote: »

Inaya wrote: »

A new trade guild is just like any new small business. It takes time to grow before you can compete with larger more established businesses. "Management" must learn how and be as dedicated as management of the larger businesses. The better the management team the better growth. Expecting a new trading guild to compete with an established one is just silly.

Similarly, accumulating gold is a learning process. When I first started all my gold came from quests, writs and selling to vendors. After a few months I had accumalated almost a million then joined a small trading guild. It took MONTHS for me to learn how to sell, what to sell and when. Almost 2 years later, I'm in one of the larger trading guilds, established in Grahtwood, and sell 500k to a little over a million a week. I do the occasional flip but mostly I farm (getting lucky on a pattern once in awhile..but I still always use the first one I get no matter the price at the time and only sell dupes) and decon. Something anyone can do. I'm not rich with just a little over 18 million but it allows me to drop a million at the lux vendor, furnish my housing by supporting trade guilds and other players with my furnishing purchases and I will NEVER pay more than something is worth TO ME! I have gold because like in real life I do not live beyond my means.

Asking for pricing to be regulated by an outside entity will NOT solve a problem that doesn't exist.

No one is talking about price regulation we're talking about rent regulation. You pay a reasonable fee to rent the hall and then it's up to you to dance in it.

The Guild can establish whatever prices it wants and shall be compared to it's peers.

But the hall should be rentable by everyone and not owned by a few, which is exactly the problem that exists now and has existed for years.

The traders ARE available to every trade guild and none are "owned". Trade guild must grow into the prime trade spots just like the guilds who are in them did!

How do you figure? So tell me where your spot is, my Trade Guild has lots to sell and we need access to the market. We only have 500k but lots of things to sell. We just don't have uhh between 2 and 20 million to purchase your bid

So I guess my Guild is done because we just don't make enough gold and we don't make enough because we can't sell our goods and we can't sell our goods because we can't bid on a Kiosk and we can't bid on a Kiosk because the price is so high only a few Guilds can afford it and the cycle continues.

I'm sorry but that is not healthy competition. And the bid precludes every Guild having access to a Vendor.

[snip]

[snip]

Just like in real life, if you want to get ahead the only way you’re getting big enough to compete with an established monolith is to have a billionaire invest in your store. If you cannot provide enough to convince a billionaire to invest then your store isn’t valuable enough to compete with the established powerhouse.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

best argument ever!
nad we play game for what? to have fun of playing some escape from real world or just to play life simulator with real economy not being an economist

do I really need to have high school knowledge about economy just to play game and be able to have gold in game in order to play it how I would want?

for next step we need also to pay monthly rent for every home we have and add tax to literally everything we are selling to just vedors, not only form guild traders if we are that level
and tbh it yould be great additional gold sink for already rich players who are making more gold to have that many homes at once

1 - You might play the game for some other reason but many people enjoy “economic PVP”.

2 - You can play the game however you want but if you choose to spend all of your play time doing one activity don’t be upset that some people have chosen to spend their time at others. I spend at least 30 minutes every time I log in doing economic stuff before I get 1 point of XP. Some times I don’t get to do anything I want to do because I only have 30 minutes so I choose to do what I believe I need to do.

3 - You likely do need a high school level of knowledge to compete at the economy. College is preferred but relative business experience can be a substitute. Seriously, do you have any concept of the amount of IT people that play ESO? This isn’t Hello Kitty Island Adventure. Legit college educated people have been grinding the ESO economy for like six years now.

4 - We do pay taxes on everything we sell at the traders already. Many other games charge you daily rent for properties. I know GTA does for example, in the form of utilities.

and not everyone, not even most of players for sure love economic game in game, most people just want to buy or sell something and play game, what you are writing is that you would want to force entirely game system, economic to need from everyone and high school economic lvl to be able to do anything, even basics in trading here to have bere minimum, basics to play game, to get what is needed for it

sorry but feel free if you like this that much to play trading minigame here but leave its basics to be avaible for everyone to sell or buy things in decent prices to play game without need to plan and rething literally every move with trading
not most of players love to spend their play time with trading....you know....we have so much content in game anyway, dungs, zones, trials etc...trading is not the only option for most players here and it shouldnt be locked from other players behind knowledge from highs school of economic profile, efficient tradings in game shouldnt be restricted only for people taught about economics and for players who dot mind, who like to do this and plan, think very much about this

You are more then welcome to spend your time on dungeons, zones and trials. You are more than welcome to never leave Cyrodiil or the Imperial City. You are more than welcome to spend your entire playtime in a bar in Shadowfen role-playing as The Lusty Argonian Maid. It’s your game, play as you want.

But for you to expect that someone who has put no effort into learning the ins and outs of the ESO economy to be on equal footing with someone who breaths it is ridiculous. It’s no different than joining a Trial filled with CP1000 players with 14 CP and expecting the same results. That’s laughable.

You are also in no way locked out from the economy if you choose to actively avoid it. Just walk up to any NPC vendor and sell your stuff at cost. 74 gold for this, 81 gold for that.

It’s not my problem that I’ve memorized the standard prices of the items I buy and sell. It’s your problem for focusing 100% on what you enjoy the most. Hate to break it to you but success in an MMO often requires a lot of time sunk into boring stuff.

so players like me who just want to sell their stuff and forget about ir or buy something and forget should be cut off from player trading system yes? we should everything sell just to vendor and farm ourselves becasue we didnt went and passed economic high school to have privilage for trading on decent level with other players, we as players who want simple buying selling for whet we need we should sell items for 10% of their price and buy at 150% of their price because we dont have privilage of earning gold via trading with other players in game becasue we didnt pass and economic high school so we dont know anything about selling and buying things in game, gotcha, next time before I list an item for sell I will study real economics how what works or just trash it to vendor becasue Im unlearned, Im not economic businessman

Yes.

I know it sounds harsh, but yes. If you are not willing to put in the effort needed to understand something completely then you should not be complaining about why you aren’t able to be good at it.

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Nagastani wrote: »

Inaya wrote: »

Nagastani wrote: »

Inaya wrote: »

A new trade guild is just like any new small business. It takes time to grow before you can compete with larger more established businesses. "Management" must learn how and be as dedicated as management of the larger businesses. The better the management team the better growth. Expecting a new trading guild to compete with an established one is just silly.

Similarly, accumulating gold is a learning process. When I first started all my gold came from quests, writs and selling to vendors. After a few months I had accumalated almost a million then joined a small trading guild. It took MONTHS for me to learn how to sell, what to sell and when. Almost 2 years later, I'm in one of the larger trading guilds, established in Grahtwood, and sell 500k to a little over a million a week. I do the occasional flip but mostly I farm (getting lucky on a pattern once in awhile..but I still always use the first one I get no matter the price at the time and only sell dupes) and decon. Something anyone can do. I'm not rich with just a little over 18 million but it allows me to drop a million at the lux vendor, furnish my housing by supporting trade guilds and other players with my furnishing purchases and I will NEVER pay more than something is worth TO ME! I have gold because like in real life I do not live beyond my means.

Asking for pricing to be regulated by an outside entity will NOT solve a problem that doesn't exist.

No one is talking about price regulation we're talking about rent regulation. You pay a reasonable fee to rent the hall and then it's up to you to dance in it.

The Guild can establish whatever prices it wants and shall be compared to it's peers.

But the hall should be rentable by everyone and not owned by a few, which is exactly the problem that exists now and has existed for years.

The traders ARE available to every trade guild and none are "owned". Trade guild must grow into the prime trade spots just like the guilds who are in them did!

How do you figure? So tell me where your spot is, my Trade Guild has lots to sell and we need access to the market. We only have 500k but lots of things to sell. We just don't have uhh between 2 and 20 million to purchase your bid

So I guess my Guild is done because we just don't make enough gold and we don't make enough because we can't sell our goods and we can't sell our goods because we can't bid on a Kiosk and we can't bid on a Kiosk because the price is so high only a few Guilds can afford it and the cycle continues.

I'm sorry but that is not healthy competition. And the bid precludes every Guild having access to a Vendor.

[snip]

[snip]

Just like in real life, if you want to get ahead the only way you’re getting big enough to compete with an established monolith is to have a billionaire invest in your store. If you cannot provide enough to convince a billionaire to invest then your store isn’t valuable enough to compete with the established powerhouse.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

best argument ever!
nad we play game for what? to have fun of playing some escape from real world or just to play life simulator with real economy not being an economist

do I really need to have high school knowledge about economy just to play game and be able to have gold in game in order to play it how I would want?

for next step we need also to pay monthly rent for every home we have and add tax to literally everything we are selling to just vedors, not only form guild traders if we are that level
and tbh it yould be great additional gold sink for already rich players who are making more gold to have that many homes at once

1 - You might play the game for some other reason but many people enjoy “economic PVP”.

2 - You can play the game however you want but if you choose to spend all of your play time doing one activity don’t be upset that some people have chosen to spend their time at others. I spend at least 30 minutes every time I log in doing economic stuff before I get 1 point of XP. Some times I don’t get to do anything I want to do because I only have 30 minutes so I choose to do what I believe I need to do.

3 - You likely do need a high school level of knowledge to compete at the economy. College is preferred but relative business experience can be a substitute. Seriously, do you have any concept of the amount of IT people that play ESO? This isn’t Hello Kitty Island Adventure. Legit college educated people have been grinding the ESO economy for like six years now.

4 - We do pay taxes on everything we sell at the traders already. Many other games charge you daily rent for properties. I know GTA does for example, in the form of utilities.

and not everyone, not even most of players for sure love economic game in game, most people just want to buy or sell something and play game, what you are writing is that you would want to force entirely game system, economic to need from everyone and high school economic lvl to be able to do anything, even basics in trading here to have bere minimum, basics to play game, to get what is needed for it

sorry but feel free if you like this that much to play trading minigame here but leave its basics to be avaible for everyone to sell or buy things in decent prices to play game without need to plan and rething literally every move with trading
not most of players love to spend their play time with trading....you know....we have so much content in game anyway, dungs, zones, trials etc...trading is not the only option for most players here and it shouldnt be locked from other players behind knowledge from highs school of economic profile, efficient tradings in game shouldnt be restricted only for people taught about economics and for players who dot mind, who like to do this and plan, think very much about this

You are more then welcome to spend your time on dungeons, zones and trials. You are more than welcome to never leave Cyrodiil or the Imperial City. You are more than welcome to spend your entire playtime in a bar in Shadowfen role-playing as The Lusty Argonian Maid. It’s your game, play as you want.

But for you to expect that someone who has put no effort into learning the ins and outs of the ESO economy to be on equal footing with someone who breaths it is ridiculous. It’s no different than joining a Trial filled with CP1000 players with 14 CP and expecting the same results. That’s laughable.

You are also in no way locked out from the economy if you choose to actively avoid it. Just walk up to any NPC vendor and sell your stuff at cost. 74 gold for this, 81 gold for that.

It’s not my problem that I’ve memorized the standard prices of the items I buy and sell. It’s your problem for focusing 100% on what you enjoy the most. Hate to break it to you but success in an MMO often requires a lot of time sunk into boring stuff.

so players like me who just want to sell their stuff and forget about ir or buy something and forget should be cut off from player trading system yes? we should everything sell just to vendor and farm ourselves becasue we didnt went and passed economic high school to have privilage for trading on decent level with other players, we as players who want simple buying selling for whet we need we should sell items for 10% of their price and buy at 150% of their price because we dont have privilage of earning gold via trading with other players in game becasue we didnt pass and economic high school so we dont know anything about selling and buying things in game, gotcha, next time before I list an item for sell I will study real economics how what works or just trash it to vendor becasue Im unlearned, Im not economic businessman

Yes.

I know it sounds harsh, but yes. If you are not willing to put in the effort needed to understand something completely then you should not be complaining about why you aren’t able to be good at it.

so in all of it - only people after economic school able to trade with other, only they have privilage to be rich players in game and rest players who jsut want to play for fun and so having gold for thing sneeded for it - they are just peasants which all they could do would be sell crowns cheap to richest players in game because nobody else would have enought gold to buy crowns from others this way

please now go and dominate market to show how it is only as privilage only for economic specialists making most of things in market in game just to expansive for average player like dreugh wax for 50k, KUTA rune for 30k+ etc
please make it, I wanna to see it how trading market is becoming only privilage for only richest players

robertthebard wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

But this misconception that people only go to Mourn, for example, because of what guilds own the traders, instead of a high concentration of traders, yeah, again, not buying it.

I just told you it is what I do. And I REALLY doubt it is just me. So aint no misconception.

I go to Mourn, Belkarth, Rawlka, Grahtwood because of the actual trading guilds stationed there. Because they are good and have stuff. And good prices.

And I dont go to shadowfen, Malabal Tor, Greenshade and all the other cities. Which have the same number of spots. Because the trading guilds there are just not as good.

If all the Mournhold Traders pack their bags and move to Malabal Tor. I'll start going there. And stop going to Mournhold.

Simple as that.

It's the trading guilds that make a spot.

Ok, that's what you do, so it's the whole game? Here's one for ya' then: I never go to Mourn, so nobody does. You see, you're expecting me to take what you do as "that's what everyone does". I don't, so your logic is already flawed. I don't look at what guild owns a trader when I do use one, twice in the last few months, I simply search for the items I'm looking for. If it's listed, and it's not too rich for my blood, I buy it. I don't care who, I care what.

How do you know what I do is not what most do?

So you bought 2 things in the last few months?

I would say my use case is probably more representative of the relevant player base for guild trading system. You know. the ones that actually use it and buy stuff. Those that don't don't really matter, now do they?

Nagastani wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

Nagastani wrote: »

However... again, as I have already said, every location tried wanted too much. Auridon Outlaw refuge was somewhere over 2 Mill, same with those little wagon Kiosk's in the DC woods. None of it was affordable especially once you understand the Guild economy itself was only netting maybe 20k a week. Lots of trade though, high volume but no real sales.

Am I misunderstanding?

You only got 20k a week from guild tax? Isn't that like barely above 500k in sales?

Well meaning the Guild itself made 20k a week. This was without taxes. No one could afford to help me and so I just helped them until it was time for the Guild to end and everyone moved on.

then you simply had the wrong mixture of people to suceed. I would stop blaming the system tbh...

it's like a new trial guild of 20 players who all cant weave have no decent gear, and dont show up half the time and all think the red ground is a marker put in by the devs to tell you where to stand guildmaster complaining about eso trials because they failed.

sorry if that sounds harsh...

iksde wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Nagastani wrote: »

Inaya wrote: »

Nagastani wrote: »

Inaya wrote: »

A new trade guild is just like any new small business. It takes time to grow before you can compete with larger more established businesses. "Management" must learn how and be as dedicated as management of the larger businesses. The better the management team the better growth. Expecting a new trading guild to compete with an established one is just silly.

Similarly, accumulating gold is a learning process. When I first started all my gold came from quests, writs and selling to vendors. After a few months I had accumalated almost a million then joined a small trading guild. It took MONTHS for me to learn how to sell, what to sell and when. Almost 2 years later, I'm in one of the larger trading guilds, established in Grahtwood, and sell 500k to a little over a million a week. I do the occasional flip but mostly I farm (getting lucky on a pattern once in awhile..but I still always use the first one I get no matter the price at the time and only sell dupes) and decon. Something anyone can do. I'm not rich with just a little over 18 million but it allows me to drop a million at the lux vendor, furnish my housing by supporting trade guilds and other players with my furnishing purchases and I will NEVER pay more than something is worth TO ME! I have gold because like in real life I do not live beyond my means.

Asking for pricing to be regulated by an outside entity will NOT solve a problem that doesn't exist.

No one is talking about price regulation we're talking about rent regulation. You pay a reasonable fee to rent the hall and then it's up to you to dance in it.

The Guild can establish whatever prices it wants and shall be compared to it's peers.

But the hall should be rentable by everyone and not owned by a few, which is exactly the problem that exists now and has existed for years.

The traders ARE available to every trade guild and none are "owned". Trade guild must grow into the prime trade spots just like the guilds who are in them did!

How do you figure? So tell me where your spot is, my Trade Guild has lots to sell and we need access to the market. We only have 500k but lots of things to sell. We just don't have uhh between 2 and 20 million to purchase your bid

So I guess my Guild is done because we just don't make enough gold and we don't make enough because we can't sell our goods and we can't sell our goods because we can't bid on a Kiosk and we can't bid on a Kiosk because the price is so high only a few Guilds can afford it and the cycle continues.

I'm sorry but that is not healthy competition. And the bid precludes every Guild having access to a Vendor.

[snip]

[snip]

Just like in real life, if you want to get ahead the only way you’re getting big enough to compete with an established monolith is to have a billionaire invest in your store. If you cannot provide enough to convince a billionaire to invest then your store isn’t valuable enough to compete with the established powerhouse.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

best argument ever!
nad we play game for what? to have fun of playing some escape from real world or just to play life simulator with real economy not being an economist

do I really need to have high school knowledge about economy just to play game and be able to have gold in game in order to play it how I would want?

for next step we need also to pay monthly rent for every home we have and add tax to literally everything we are selling to just vedors, not only form guild traders if we are that level
and tbh it yould be great additional gold sink for already rich players who are making more gold to have that many homes at once

1 - You might play the game for some other reason but many people enjoy “economic PVP”.

2 - You can play the game however you want but if you choose to spend all of your play time doing one activity don’t be upset that some people have chosen to spend their time at others. I spend at least 30 minutes every time I log in doing economic stuff before I get 1 point of XP. Some times I don’t get to do anything I want to do because I only have 30 minutes so I choose to do what I believe I need to do.

3 - You likely do need a high school level of knowledge to compete at the economy. College is preferred but relative business experience can be a substitute. Seriously, do you have any concept of the amount of IT people that play ESO? This isn’t Hello Kitty Island Adventure. Legit college educated people have been grinding the ESO economy for like six years now.

4 - We do pay taxes on everything we sell at the traders already. Many other games charge you daily rent for properties. I know GTA does for example, in the form of utilities.

and not everyone, not even most of players for sure love economic game in game, most people just want to buy or sell something and play game, what you are writing is that you would want to force entirely game system, economic to need from everyone and high school economic lvl to be able to do anything, even basics in trading here to have bere minimum, basics to play game, to get what is needed for it

sorry but feel free if you like this that much to play trading minigame here but leave its basics to be avaible for everyone to sell or buy things in decent prices to play game without need to plan and rething literally every move with trading
not most of players love to spend their play time with trading....you know....we have so much content in game anyway, dungs, zones, trials etc...trading is not the only option for most players here and it shouldnt be locked from other players behind knowledge from highs school of economic profile, efficient tradings in game shouldnt be restricted only for people taught about economics and for players who dot mind, who like to do this and plan, think very much about this

You are more then welcome to spend your time on dungeons, zones and trials. You are more than welcome to never leave Cyrodiil or the Imperial City. You are more than welcome to spend your entire playtime in a bar in Shadowfen role-playing as The Lusty Argonian Maid. It’s your game, play as you want.

But for you to expect that someone who has put no effort into learning the ins and outs of the ESO economy to be on equal footing with someone who breaths it is ridiculous. It’s no different than joining a Trial filled with CP1000 players with 14 CP and expecting the same results. That’s laughable.

You are also in no way locked out from the economy if you choose to actively avoid it. Just walk up to any NPC vendor and sell your stuff at cost. 74 gold for this, 81 gold for that.

It’s not my problem that I’ve memorized the standard prices of the items I buy and sell. It’s your problem for focusing 100% on what you enjoy the most. Hate to break it to you but success in an MMO often requires a lot of time sunk into boring stuff.

so players like me who just want to sell their stuff and forget about ir or buy something and forget should be cut off from player trading system yes? we should everything sell just to vendor and farm ourselves becasue we didnt went and passed economic high school to have privilage for trading on decent level with other players, we as players who want simple buying selling for whet we need we should sell items for 10% of their price and buy at 150% of their price because we dont have privilage of earning gold via trading with other players in game becasue we didnt pass and economic high school so we dont know anything about selling and buying things in game, gotcha, next time before I list an item for sell I will study real economics how what works or just trash it to vendor becasue Im unlearned, Im not economic businessman

Yes.

I know it sounds harsh, but yes. If you are not willing to put in the effort needed to understand something completely then you should not be complaining about why you aren’t able to be good at it.

so in all of it - only people after economic school able to trade with other, only they have privilage to be rich players in game and rest players who jsut want to play for fun and so having gold for thing sneeded for it - they are just peasants which all they could do would be sell crowns cheap to richest players in game because nobody else would have enought gold to buy crowns from others this way

please now go and dominate market to show how it is only as privilage only for economic specialists making most of things in market in game just to expansive for average player like dreugh wax for 50k, KUTA rune for 30k+ etc
please make it, I wanna to see it how trading market is becoming only privilage for only richest players

I have an English degree. I am not an “economic” or whatever you like to pretend I am.

What is making you a peasant (your words not mine) is because you are actively fighting to keep yourself ignorant, and blaming people who have educated themselves for your own shortcomings.

In the time you took to make 3 posts you could have gone on YouTube and learned everything you need to know about economics in ESO. You chose not to. You still can, and you should ... assuming you want to get better at understanding them.

And since you brought it up, I’ve never bought a crown in my life from anyone except Zenimax, but I truly do enjoy your slippery slope argument about how Kuta is going to increase 10 times over in price based on literally nothing.

Honestly it’s obvious that you care. Hats off to you for that. Now take that gumption and Google “how to make gold in ESO” and educate yourself on extremely basic concepts that you have no grasp over.