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I am just happy more people on forum are complaining about hyper inflation
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jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭A new trade guild is just like any new small business. It takes time to grow before you can compete with larger more established businesses. "Management" must learn how and be as dedicated as management of the larger businesses. The better the management team the better growth. Expecting a new trading guild to compete with an established one is just silly.
Similarly, accumulating gold is a learning process. When I first started all my gold came from quests, writs and selling to vendors. After a few months I had accumalated almost a million then joined a small trading guild. It took MONTHS for me to learn how to sell, what to sell and when. Almost 2 years later, I'm in one of the larger trading guilds, established in Grahtwood, and sell 500k to a little over a million a week. I do the occasional flip but mostly I farm (getting lucky on a pattern once in awhile..but I still always use the first one I get no matter the price at the time and only sell dupes) and decon. Something anyone can do. I'm not rich with just a little over 18 million but it allows me to drop a million at the lux vendor, furnish my housing by supporting trade guilds and other players with my furnishing purchases and I will NEVER pay more than something is worth TO ME! I have gold because like in real life I do not live beyond my means.
Asking for pricing to be regulated by an outside entity will NOT solve a problem that doesn't exist.
No one is talking about price regulation we're talking about rent regulation. You pay a reasonable fee to rent the hall and then it's up to you to dance in it.
The Guild can establish whatever prices it wants and shall be compared to it's peers.
But the hall should be rentable by everyone and not owned by a few, which is exactly the problem that exists now and has existed for years.
The traders ARE available to every trade guild and none are "owned". Trade guild must grow into the prime trade spots just like the guilds who are in them did!
How do you figure? So tell me where your spot is, my Trade Guild has lots to sell and we need access to the market. We only have 500k but lots of things to sell. We just don't have uhh between 2 and 20 million to purchase your bid
So I guess my Guild is done because we just don't make enough gold and we don't make enough because we can't sell our goods and we can't sell our goods because we can't bid on a Kiosk and we can't bid on a Kiosk because the price is so high only a few Guilds can afford it and the cycle continues.
I'm sorry but that is not healthy competition. And the bid precludes every Guild having access to a Vendor.
[snip]
Like any business, maybe the GM should invest more than 500K gold into the guild to ensure an initial trader location.
But also, maybe try to find a middle of nowhere spot to start rather than trying to compete for a prime location. Your guild doesn't sound like a guild that anyone would want to see in a major trading hub yet. You have to build to that.Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on April 5, 2021 3:06PM9 -
Eedat✭✭✭✭✭A new trade guild is just like any new small business. It takes time to grow before you can compete with larger more established businesses. "Management" must learn how and be as dedicated as management of the larger businesses. The better the management team the better growth. Expecting a new trading guild to compete with an established one is just silly.
Similarly, accumulating gold is a learning process. When I first started all my gold came from quests, writs and selling to vendors. After a few months I had accumalated almost a million then joined a small trading guild. It took MONTHS for me to learn how to sell, what to sell and when. Almost 2 years later, I'm in one of the larger trading guilds, established in Grahtwood, and sell 500k to a little over a million a week. I do the occasional flip but mostly I farm (getting lucky on a pattern once in awhile..but I still always use the first one I get no matter the price at the time and only sell dupes) and decon. Something anyone can do. I'm not rich with just a little over 18 million but it allows me to drop a million at the lux vendor, furnish my housing by supporting trade guilds and other players with my furnishing purchases and I will NEVER pay more than something is worth TO ME! I have gold because like in real life I do not live beyond my means.
Asking for pricing to be regulated by an outside entity will NOT solve a problem that doesn't exist.
No one is talking about price regulation we're talking about rent regulation. You pay a reasonable fee to rent the hall and then it's up to you to dance in it.
The Guild can establish whatever prices it wants and shall be compared to it's peers.
But the hall should be rentable by everyone and not owned by a few, which is exactly the problem that exists now and has existed for years.
The traders ARE available to every trade guild and none are "owned". Trade guild must grow into the prime trade spots just like the guilds who are in them did!
How do you figure? So tell me where your spot is, my Trade Guild has lots to sell and we need access to the market. We only have 500k but lots of things to sell. We just don't have uhh between 2 and 20 million to purchase your bid
So I guess my Guild is done because we just don't make enough gold and we don't make enough because we can't sell our goods and we can sell our goods because we can't bid on a Kiosk and we can't bid on a Kiosk because the price is so high only a few Guilds can afford it and the cycle continues.
I'm sorry but that is not healthy competition. And the bid precludes every Guild having access to a Vendor.
[snip]
You aren't seeing the problem with "having lots of things to sell" and "we only have 500k"? A single person makes more than that by doing daily crafting writs in a week. Kinda sounds like you aren't traders which makes demanding a good trade location kinda ridiculous.
You seem to have this idea that these big guilds are inherently bad and all their literal years of effort, time, gold, donations, etc mean nothing. Meanwhile a new guild is inherently good and they shouldn't have to put in any effort at all to get what other people have. If you want what others have spent literal years to obtain, you are going to have to put in the time and effort that everyone else had to and have a good planEdited by ZOS_ConnorG on April 5, 2021 3:06PM4 -
Nagastani✭✭✭✭A new trade guild is just like any new small business. It takes time to grow before you can compete with larger more established businesses. "Management" must learn how and be as dedicated as management of the larger businesses. The better the management team the better growth. Expecting a new trading guild to compete with an established one is just silly.
Similarly, accumulating gold is a learning process. When I first started all my gold came from quests, writs and selling to vendors. After a few months I had accumalated almost a million then joined a small trading guild. It took MONTHS for me to learn how to sell, what to sell and when. Almost 2 years later, I'm in one of the larger trading guilds, established in Grahtwood, and sell 500k to a little over a million a week. I do the occasional flip but mostly I farm (getting lucky on a pattern once in awhile..but I still always use the first one I get no matter the price at the time and only sell dupes) and decon. Something anyone can do. I'm not rich with just a little over 18 million but it allows me to drop a million at the lux vendor, furnish my housing by supporting trade guilds and other players with my furnishing purchases and I will NEVER pay more than something is worth TO ME! I have gold because like in real life I do not live beyond my means.
Asking for pricing to be regulated by an outside entity will NOT solve a problem that doesn't exist.
No one is talking about price regulation we're talking about rent regulation. You pay a reasonable fee to rent the hall and then it's up to you to dance in it.
The Guild can establish whatever prices it wants and shall be compared to it's peers.
But the hall should be rentable by everyone and not owned by a few, which is exactly the problem that exists now and has existed for years.
The traders ARE available to every trade guild and none are "owned". Trade guild must grow into the prime trade spots just like the guilds who are in them did!
How do you figure? So tell me where your spot is, my Trade Guild has lots to sell and we need access to the market. We only have 500k but lots of things to sell. We just don't have uhh between 2 and 20 million to purchase your bid
So I guess my Guild is done because we just don't make enough gold and we don't make enough because we can't sell our goods and we can sell our goods because we can't bid on a Kiosk and we can't bid on a Kiosk because the price is so high only a few Guilds can afford it and the cycle continues.
I'm sorry but that is not healthy competition. And the bid precludes every Guild having access to a Vendor.
[snip]
You aren't seeing the problem with "having lots of things to sell" and "we only have 500k"? A single person makes more than that by doing daily crafting writs in a week. Kinda sounds like you aren't traders which makes demanding a good trade location kinda ridiculous.
You seem to have this idea that these big guilds are inherently bad and all their literal years of effort, time, gold, donations, etc mean nothing. Meanwhile a new guild is inherently good and they shouldn't have to put in any effort at all to get what other people have. If you want what others have spent literal years to obtain, you are going to have to put in the time and effort that everyone else had to and have a good plan
Well not really, I mean you can't talk about this subject without having "big guilds" have collateral because only large guilds can afford to bid.
So it's not that I have it out for them, it's just they get brought in on this implicitly.Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on April 5, 2021 3:07PM1 -
deleted008293✭✭✭✭Skin / loot / achievemnt sellers... Thank them... They are making so much money they are buying off everything they can from the traders causing a mass shortage of various products and then reselling items at an higher price. The more useful an item is the better it get.0
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Nagastani✭✭✭✭A new trade guild is just like any new small business. It takes time to grow before you can compete with larger more established businesses. "Management" must learn how and be as dedicated as management of the larger businesses. The better the management team the better growth. Expecting a new trading guild to compete with an established one is just silly.
Similarly, accumulating gold is a learning process. When I first started all my gold came from quests, writs and selling to vendors. After a few months I had accumalated almost a million then joined a small trading guild. It took MONTHS for me to learn how to sell, what to sell and when. Almost 2 years later, I'm in one of the larger trading guilds, established in Grahtwood, and sell 500k to a little over a million a week. I do the occasional flip but mostly I farm (getting lucky on a pattern once in awhile..but I still always use the first one I get no matter the price at the time and only sell dupes) and decon. Something anyone can do. I'm not rich with just a little over 18 million but it allows me to drop a million at the lux vendor, furnish my housing by supporting trade guilds and other players with my furnishing purchases and I will NEVER pay more than something is worth TO ME! I have gold because like in real life I do not live beyond my means.
Asking for pricing to be regulated by an outside entity will NOT solve a problem that doesn't exist.
No one is talking about price regulation we're talking about rent regulation. You pay a reasonable fee to rent the hall and then it's up to you to dance in it.
The Guild can establish whatever prices it wants and shall be compared to it's peers.
But the hall should be rentable by everyone and not owned by a few, which is exactly the problem that exists now and has existed for years.
The traders ARE available to every trade guild and none are "owned". Trade guild must grow into the prime trade spots just like the guilds who are in them did!
How do you figure? So tell me where your spot is, my Trade Guild has lots to sell and we need access to the market. We only have 500k but lots of things to sell. We just don't have uhh between 2 and 20 million to purchase your bid
So I guess my Guild is done because we just don't make enough gold and we don't make enough because we can't sell our goods and we can't sell our goods because we can't bid on a Kiosk and we can't bid on a Kiosk because the price is so high only a few Guilds can afford it and the cycle continues.
I'm sorry but that is not healthy competition. And the bid precludes every Guild having access to a Vendor.
[snip]
Like any business, maybe the GM should invest more than 500K gold into the guild to ensure an initial trader location.
But also, maybe try to find a middle of nowhere spot to start rather than trying to compete for a prime location. Your guild doesn't sound like a guild that anyone would want to see in a major trading hub yet. You have to build to that.
Ok well again, like I told the other guy... who says I haven't?
I understand you are not totally familiar with my situation but that was just used for example purposes. I don't care about myself at this point and the focus of this argument should be on resolving the bidding problem as well as providing greater availability for other vendors to compete.Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on April 5, 2021 3:07PM1 -
robertthebard✭✭✭✭✭ForzaRammer wrote: »Unlike people who claim it is just 'supply and demand shift', I was right all along
I understand zos want to sell crown houses and stuff.
Here is my original solution, lower all gold gain.
Remove treasure in antique, remove daily quest gold.
Half the pvp campaign reward, half the trial plunder.
And here was another person's suggestion.
Remove transmute crystal for reconstruction, change it to gold.
Its too late for all that. ZOS isn't going to do anything of the sort anyways.
You want to fix it? I can tell you how, but first we need to start with the problem.
The problem is the Guilds are too big to fail and can charge whatever they want... and they sometimes do. And by this time in the game's lifespan we have our major trade guilds who are the players in the economy and they have no real competition. That's the problem.
The solution is to go back and rework how Kiosk Vendors are setup. Because the price to 'rent' a weekly vendor is out of sight and new Trade Guilds can't compete for space, thus only the big really profitable guilds can only compete amongst themselves.
We need more competition, the vendors should be reworked to abolish a weekly bid and set this up to encourage growth of new Trade Guilds with new ideas who don't need to bring in billions of gold every week in order to compete.
Until this changes 'they' are in charge and will continue to be and there is nothing anyone can do about it except farm your own mats.
Trading works like anything else in the game. The more time you put in the better the results. Players doing trials don't jump right into hard mode no death speed runs on vet. They join a progression guild and learn what is expected of them. Same exact thing with trading. The very top trading guilds often have room for new members because not everybody is able to trade at a level that makes being in a top tier trade guild worth while. Good news is there are more than 200 vendor spots in the game and many of those are taken by guilds that have no requirements to join. It is a myth that you can't make a decent amount of gold at these traders. I am on PC though so Tamriel Trade Centre helps some with the out of the way traders getting traffic.
I would like to see all the traders that are in a location alone get one more trader added to give more incentive to visit those places. If we put another trader in the thieves dens and beside wayshrines that have nearby traders that I think would help a lot.
A new trade guild is going to struggle just like any other specialty guild will struggle. For many players in those top tier guilds that is their end game. They send most their time in game concentrating on selling. Social guilds can and do get traders so I know if a new trade guild is persistent they can get a spot most weeks.
The big trade guilds have to compete with every other guild out there that has a trader. They have the advantage of being in a high traffic area but that doesn't mean they are not competing with the little guys. Outside of the high traffic areas it is a good idea to list most items a bit below what they are selling for in the high traffic spots but rare items will sell for same price whatever the location.
I hear what you're saying but it seems like it really doesn't.
No Trade Guild of any kind gets a Vendor unless they can compete on the weekly bid, which even for those little outlaw holes in the wall is outrageously priced and fiercely fought over. No Kiosk equals no Trade Guild in the long run and looks bad for them not to have one. Big Guilds are fine, hey I'm not against anyone making money. However, they have the capital, the resources, the loyalties of folks so they can make the money to buy the bid, which even for them has become insanely expensive.
See what I'm saying? The weekly bidding mechanic is terrible for everyone. And a new Guild, unless it's being financed by one of the big Guilds, which they have no real reason to expand, cannot buy a Kiosk and thus they cannot grow naturally. ESO economy is like a nation where the big banks are in charge and they have money, they are powerful, but the system is dying because there is no room for new growth outside of them, no room for real competition and thus your prices on everything are out of sight.
Comes as no surprise to me.
The bidding mechanic is easily largest gold sink and fierce competition ensures as much gold gets flushed down the toilet as possible each week. Trader bids easily flush hundreds of millions of gold out of the economy every week. Getting rid of it would lead to crazy hyoerinflation
It makes no sense for a new or small trade guild to get a premium spot. Those spots are considered premium only because people know the guilds there have had dedicated teams working for years building a competitive guild store. If those locations were suddenly filled with new guilds with far below average stores then people wouldn't go there to shop anyway.
New guilds start at smaller locations and grow from there. Getting a new guild off the ground is going to require a capital investment and a lot of dedication.
People think that large trade guilds only stay afloat because they're too big to fail which is completely wrong. They have a team of people putting in hours of work every week to raise money for the bid because taxes alone aren't even close to enough to afford the bid. They organize events, raffles, auctions, etc every single week and have done so for many years.
Who are you or I to decide that?
And what is a premium spot? That could all change with a new system and that is the idea here.
Then get a trader at a reasonable price in a more reasonable location? If you dont care about a premium spot than this is a non issue. If you want a premium spot then you have to put forth the effort and make good decisions to get there. You aren't going to get what others have put literal years of effort into maintaining overnight. The current bid system is actually fantastic at countering inflation and is self regulating. The more gold that is flowing around the higher the bids go and the more gold that gets pumped out. Flat fees that anyone can afford is an awful system in comparison that will cause long term problems
Reasonable according to whom? None of it is reasonable anywhere. Perhaps for you, perhaps for some Guilds it might considered reasonable. For a new Trade Guild starting out... none of this is reasonable, not anywhere in the game currently.
The flat fees are for rent. Which would actually be variable depending on the size of the guild, not to exceed 500k.
And you say it would be awful.
How awful would it be compared to what is now? Indeed it would be awful for some because over the long term you're going to have to lower prices to sell and would ensure every market has enough competition instead of uhh 4 or 5 of the same Guilds doing the same thing every week. In 'their' same premium location.
You seem to have this backwards. Those guilds are what make the spot premium, not the other way around lol. The guilds are the premium. If you replaced every trader in Mourn with random new guilds with bad stores then it wouldn't be a premium spot and people wouldn't go there to shop like they do now. If you want your guild to succeed, you need to build up a pool of good traders who will fill the trader with desirable items other players want. This takes time and years of dedication which is what others have done and continue to do. You aren't going to get what others have put years of effort into doing just because you want it. You have to put that effort in too.
I'm going to have to disagree with this assessment. A spot isn't valuable because of the guild, it's valuable because of the traffic through it. A high traffic area, such as someone's earlier example of a downtown location, will be more valuable than a low traffic area, the edge of town, from the same example. How desirable a location is is how we end up with "high rent districts"...4 -
Nagastani✭✭✭✭nordmarian wrote: »Skin / loot / achievemnt sellers... Thank them... They are making so much money they are buying off everything they can from the traders causing a mass shortage of various products and then reselling items at an higher price. The more useful an item is the better it get.
Ok then maybe that's one problem that needs to be discussed.
My hunch is there's several and it's not just the bid however I just look at the way things currently are and see so much potential and so very little opportunity. But if even for minor vendors were having to put out at least 2 Mill something is broken.Edited by Nagastani on April 5, 2021 2:27PM0 -
Eedat✭✭✭✭✭anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »Competition meaning... as it is right now, people are competing over the bid. If you win the bid then that... that means you can do what you want. Which, in a way I can kind of understand that because the bids are astronomically expensive anyways.
What I'm saying is, the system needs to be reformed to shift the energy away from the bid and make it so that the focus is on what value the Guild itself provides. The vendor should distinguish itself amongst it's peers by its value and not by it's bid being higher than everyone else, especially Guilds who themselves have value yet cannot compete with the bid.
And yes, even bids in premium/non-premium places which should be expanded to allow for increased pressure from competition at all of these locations.
The bids are NOT "astronomically high". They just appear like this because they used to be ridiculously low for YEARS due to "agreements" behind the curtains among trading guilds. Multibidding made all this obsolote and transformed the bidding market into a true market responding to supply and demand.
Heavy competition among trading guilds is a very good thing for ALL players because it gets everyone rid of small guilds with no or too few listing at prices set entirely out of the blue.
Not really no. I've never been an officer in a major trading guild, buForzaRammer wrote: »Unlike people who claim it is just 'supply and demand shift', I was right all along
I understand zos want to sell crown houses and stuff.
Here is my original solution, lower all gold gain.
Remove treasure in antique, remove daily quest gold.
Half the pvp campaign reward, half the trial plunder.
And here was another person's suggestion.
Remove transmute crystal for reconstruction, change it to gold.
Its too late for all that. ZOS isn't going to do anything of the sort anyways.
You want to fix it? I can tell you how, but first we need to start with the problem.
The problem is the Guilds are too big to fail and can charge whatever they want... and they sometimes do. And by this time in the game's lifespan we have our major trade guilds who are the players in the economy and they have no real competition. That's the problem.
The solution is to go back and rework how Kiosk Vendors are setup. Because the price to 'rent' a weekly vendor is out of sight and new Trade Guilds can't compete for space, thus only the big really profitable guilds can only compete amongst themselves.
We need more competition, the vendors should be reworked to abolish a weekly bid and set this up to encourage growth of new Trade Guilds with new ideas who don't need to bring in billions of gold every week in order to compete.
Until this changes 'they' are in charge and will continue to be and there is nothing anyone can do about it except farm your own mats.
Trading works like anything else in the game. The more time you put in the better the results. Players doing trials don't jump right into hard mode no death speed runs on vet. They join a progression guild and learn what is expected of them. Same exact thing with trading. The very top trading guilds often have room for new members because not everybody is able to trade at a level that makes being in a top tier trade guild worth while. Good news is there are more than 200 vendor spots in the game and many of those are taken by guilds that have no requirements to join. It is a myth that you can't make a decent amount of gold at these traders. I am on PC though so Tamriel Trade Centre helps some with the out of the way traders getting traffic.
I would like to see all the traders that are in a location alone get one more trader added to give more incentive to visit those places. If we put another trader in the thieves dens and beside wayshrines that have nearby traders that I think would help a lot.
A new trade guild is going to struggle just like any other specialty guild will struggle. For many players in those top tier guilds that is their end game. They send most their time in game concentrating on selling. Social guilds can and do get traders so I know if a new trade guild is persistent they can get a spot most weeks.
The big trade guilds have to compete with every other guild out there that has a trader. They have the advantage of being in a high traffic area but that doesn't mean they are not competing with the little guys. Outside of the high traffic areas it is a good idea to list most items a bit below what they are selling for in the high traffic spots but rare items will sell for same price whatever the location.
I hear what you're saying but it seems like it really doesn't.
No Trade Guild of any kind gets a Vendor unless they can compete on the weekly bid, which even for those little outlaw holes in the wall is outrageously priced and fiercely fought over. No Kiosk equals no Trade Guild in the long run and looks bad for them not to have one. Big Guilds are fine, hey I'm not against anyone making money. However, they have the capital, the resources, the loyalties of folks so they can make the money to buy the bid, which even for them has become insanely expensive.
See what I'm saying? The weekly bidding mechanic is terrible for everyone. And a new Guild, unless it's being financed by one of the big Guilds, which they have no real reason to expand, cannot buy a Kiosk and thus they cannot grow naturally. ESO economy is like a nation where the big banks are in charge and they have money, they are powerful, but the system is dying because there is no room for new growth outside of them, no room for real competition and thus your prices on everything are out of sight.
Comes as no surprise to me.
The bidding mechanic is easily largest gold sink and fierce competition ensures as much gold gets flushed down the toilet as possible each week. Trader bids easily flush hundreds of millions of gold out of the economy every week. Getting rid of it would lead to crazy hyoerinflation
It makes no sense for a new or small trade guild to get a premium spot. Those spots are considered premium only because people know the guilds there have had dedicated teams working for years building a competitive guild store. If those locations were suddenly filled with new guilds with far below average stores then people wouldn't go there to shop anyway.
New guilds start at smaller locations and grow from there. Getting a new guild off the ground is going to require a capital investment and a lot of dedication.
People think that large trade guilds only stay afloat because they're too big to fail which is completely wrong. They have a team of people putting in hours of work every week to raise money for the bid because taxes alone aren't even close to enough to afford the bid. They organize events, raffles, auctions, etc every single week and have done so for many years.
Who are you or I to decide that?
And what is a premium spot? That could all change with a new system and that is the idea here.
Then get a trader at a reasonable price in a more reasonable location? If you dont care about a premium spot than this is a non issue. If you want a premium spot then you have to put forth the effort and make good decisions to get there. You aren't going to get what others have put literal years of effort into maintaining overnight. The current bid system is actually fantastic at countering inflation and is self regulating. The more gold that is flowing around the higher the bids go and the more gold that gets pumped out. Flat fees that anyone can afford is an awful system in comparison that will cause long term problems
Reasonable according to whom? None of it is reasonable anywhere. Perhaps for you, perhaps for some Guilds it might considered reasonable. For a new Trade Guild starting out... none of this is reasonable, not anywhere in the game currently.
The flat fees are for rent. Which would actually be variable depending on the size of the guild, not to exceed 500k.
And you say it would be awful.
How awful would it be compared to what is now? Indeed it would be awful for some because over the long term you're going to have to lower prices to sell and would ensure every market has enough competition instead of uhh 4 or 5 of the same Guilds doing the same thing every week. In 'their' same premium location.
You seem to have this backwards. Those guilds are what make the spot premium, not the other way around lol. The guilds are the premium. If you replaced every trader in Mourn with random new guilds with bad stores then it wouldn't be a premium spot and people wouldn't go there to shop like they do now. If you want your guild to succeed, you need to build up a pool of good traders who will fill the trader with desirable items other players want. This takes time and years of dedication which is what others have done and continue to do. You aren't going to get what others have put years of effort into doing just because you want it. You have to put that effort in too.
None of it matters unless I can successfully bid for a public Kiosk. I'm sorry but trade guilds won't last without it.
You know this...
.....what? Get a cheaper trader and work your way up. What you seem to want is to put no effort in and still get all the benefits because new guild good, year after year of effort means nothing and bad. This doesn't even work though because if you remove all the good traders from a location then you lose all the traffic. People go to these locations because they know the traders there are stacked. If Mourn was filled with traders with 50 members selling 3 potatos then absolutely nobody would go there to shop anymore. The system you propose makes zero sense and is actually extraordinarily harmful to the economy of the game. There are plenty of reasonably priced traders in the game, start at one of them. You aren't going to go from 0 to the best overnight. It makes absolutely zero sense.
No more harmful than super-inflated bids artificially blocking new Vendors from competing now. It's no different.
You guys act like I'm trying to put controls on things, I'm trying to take them off the thing. Who cares how many Vendors are in a given place. Statistically speaking all of them will not be successful, anyways. There's no need to concern ourselves with that.
The market will work itself out if people would let it. But it can't do that without healthy competition.
Yes, grossly more harmful than inflated trader bids. Inflated trader bids are actually fantastic for the economy as they are the single biggest gold sink in the game and by and large are mostly the richest players throwing loads of their gold into the void. This preserves the purchasing power of people with not as much gold who aren't throwing away nearly as much even proportionately.
Yeah except it doesn't work that way.
And listen I'm not about telling people how to spend their money.
But what if that's not working anymore. There is now a direct correlation between ultra high bids and an ultra inflated market.
This is due to lack of competition and the same people, the same vendor spot, week after week, charging whatever they want and we all have to either pay it or go farm it.
It's so boring and so depressing that simple every day items are now completely unaffordable for new players.
Yeah except it works exactly that way lol. Guild trader bids are disproportionately funded by richer players. Generally the top 10% of contributors front more than 80% of the bid. If your guild has a 200k minimum, you are paying 7k a week in guild taxes. If you had 500 members and everyone did this, you would have 3.5m in taxes collected. You aren't even remotely close to a trader bid in Mourn at this point. Obviously the higher sellers pay more in taxes, but taxes alone arent enough to fund the bid. Thats when rich players pay far over market value for items in guild auctions to fund the trader bid. These rich players' gold then gets thrown into the abyss via the bid. Lower income players still are only putting in 7k and receiving all the same benefits. Their purchasing power is preserved as the massive gold sink aggressively fights inflation. The system has the added benefit of being self sustaining as the more gold is floating around, the higher the bids go which is why ESO experiences far less inflation than other MMOs.
What you are proposing would remove the single largest gold sink in the game. If a low income player gets most of their gold from a static source, it begins to lose purchasing power. The 5k they get from writs gradually is worth less and less. The trader bids are super favorable to lower income players and removing it would cause massive negative consequences.7 -
Eedat✭✭✭✭✭robertthebard wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Unlike people who claim it is just 'supply and demand shift', I was right all along
I understand zos want to sell crown houses and stuff.
Here is my original solution, lower all gold gain.
Remove treasure in antique, remove daily quest gold.
Half the pvp campaign reward, half the trial plunder.
And here was another person's suggestion.
Remove transmute crystal for reconstruction, change it to gold.
Its too late for all that. ZOS isn't going to do anything of the sort anyways.
You want to fix it? I can tell you how, but first we need to start with the problem.
The problem is the Guilds are too big to fail and can charge whatever they want... and they sometimes do. And by this time in the game's lifespan we have our major trade guilds who are the players in the economy and they have no real competition. That's the problem.
The solution is to go back and rework how Kiosk Vendors are setup. Because the price to 'rent' a weekly vendor is out of sight and new Trade Guilds can't compete for space, thus only the big really profitable guilds can only compete amongst themselves.
We need more competition, the vendors should be reworked to abolish a weekly bid and set this up to encourage growth of new Trade Guilds with new ideas who don't need to bring in billions of gold every week in order to compete.
Until this changes 'they' are in charge and will continue to be and there is nothing anyone can do about it except farm your own mats.
Trading works like anything else in the game. The more time you put in the better the results. Players doing trials don't jump right into hard mode no death speed runs on vet. They join a progression guild and learn what is expected of them. Same exact thing with trading. The very top trading guilds often have room for new members because not everybody is able to trade at a level that makes being in a top tier trade guild worth while. Good news is there are more than 200 vendor spots in the game and many of those are taken by guilds that have no requirements to join. It is a myth that you can't make a decent amount of gold at these traders. I am on PC though so Tamriel Trade Centre helps some with the out of the way traders getting traffic.
I would like to see all the traders that are in a location alone get one more trader added to give more incentive to visit those places. If we put another trader in the thieves dens and beside wayshrines that have nearby traders that I think would help a lot.
A new trade guild is going to struggle just like any other specialty guild will struggle. For many players in those top tier guilds that is their end game. They send most their time in game concentrating on selling. Social guilds can and do get traders so I know if a new trade guild is persistent they can get a spot most weeks.
The big trade guilds have to compete with every other guild out there that has a trader. They have the advantage of being in a high traffic area but that doesn't mean they are not competing with the little guys. Outside of the high traffic areas it is a good idea to list most items a bit below what they are selling for in the high traffic spots but rare items will sell for same price whatever the location.
I hear what you're saying but it seems like it really doesn't.
No Trade Guild of any kind gets a Vendor unless they can compete on the weekly bid, which even for those little outlaw holes in the wall is outrageously priced and fiercely fought over. No Kiosk equals no Trade Guild in the long run and looks bad for them not to have one. Big Guilds are fine, hey I'm not against anyone making money. However, they have the capital, the resources, the loyalties of folks so they can make the money to buy the bid, which even for them has become insanely expensive.
See what I'm saying? The weekly bidding mechanic is terrible for everyone. And a new Guild, unless it's being financed by one of the big Guilds, which they have no real reason to expand, cannot buy a Kiosk and thus they cannot grow naturally. ESO economy is like a nation where the big banks are in charge and they have money, they are powerful, but the system is dying because there is no room for new growth outside of them, no room for real competition and thus your prices on everything are out of sight.
Comes as no surprise to me.
The bidding mechanic is easily largest gold sink and fierce competition ensures as much gold gets flushed down the toilet as possible each week. Trader bids easily flush hundreds of millions of gold out of the economy every week. Getting rid of it would lead to crazy hyoerinflation
It makes no sense for a new or small trade guild to get a premium spot. Those spots are considered premium only because people know the guilds there have had dedicated teams working for years building a competitive guild store. If those locations were suddenly filled with new guilds with far below average stores then people wouldn't go there to shop anyway.
New guilds start at smaller locations and grow from there. Getting a new guild off the ground is going to require a capital investment and a lot of dedication.
People think that large trade guilds only stay afloat because they're too big to fail which is completely wrong. They have a team of people putting in hours of work every week to raise money for the bid because taxes alone aren't even close to enough to afford the bid. They organize events, raffles, auctions, etc every single week and have done so for many years.
Who are you or I to decide that?
And what is a premium spot? That could all change with a new system and that is the idea here.
Then get a trader at a reasonable price in a more reasonable location? If you dont care about a premium spot than this is a non issue. If you want a premium spot then you have to put forth the effort and make good decisions to get there. You aren't going to get what others have put literal years of effort into maintaining overnight. The current bid system is actually fantastic at countering inflation and is self regulating. The more gold that is flowing around the higher the bids go and the more gold that gets pumped out. Flat fees that anyone can afford is an awful system in comparison that will cause long term problems
Reasonable according to whom? None of it is reasonable anywhere. Perhaps for you, perhaps for some Guilds it might considered reasonable. For a new Trade Guild starting out... none of this is reasonable, not anywhere in the game currently.
The flat fees are for rent. Which would actually be variable depending on the size of the guild, not to exceed 500k.
And you say it would be awful.
How awful would it be compared to what is now? Indeed it would be awful for some because over the long term you're going to have to lower prices to sell and would ensure every market has enough competition instead of uhh 4 or 5 of the same Guilds doing the same thing every week. In 'their' same premium location.
You seem to have this backwards. Those guilds are what make the spot premium, not the other way around lol. The guilds are the premium. If you replaced every trader in Mourn with random new guilds with bad stores then it wouldn't be a premium spot and people wouldn't go there to shop like they do now. If you want your guild to succeed, you need to build up a pool of good traders who will fill the trader with desirable items other players want. This takes time and years of dedication which is what others have done and continue to do. You aren't going to get what others have put years of effort into doing just because you want it. You have to put that effort in too.
I'm going to have to disagree with this assessment. A spot isn't valuable because of the guild, it's valuable because of the traffic through it. A high traffic area, such as someone's earlier example of a downtown location, will be more valuable than a low traffic area, the edge of town, from the same example. How desirable a location is is how we end up with "high rent districts"...
Except there isn't this concept of traffic in ESO. You can teleport anywhere on the continent in seconds. You dont need to pass through a specific area or take a specific route through a major city to get places. There needs to be a reason to get people to go there. People go shopping in Mourn because they know the traders are stacked0 -
Inaya✭✭✭✭✭
✭A new trade guild is just like any new small business. It takes time to grow before you can compete with larger more established businesses. "Management" must learn how and be as dedicated as management of the larger businesses. The better the management team the better growth. Expecting a new trading guild to compete with an established one is just silly.
Similarly, accumulating gold is a learning process. When I first started all my gold came from quests, writs and selling to vendors. After a few months I had accumalated almost a million then joined a small trading guild. It took MONTHS for me to learn how to sell, what to sell and when. Almost 2 years later, I'm in one of the larger trading guilds, established in Grahtwood, and sell 500k to a little over a million a week. I do the occasional flip but mostly I farm (getting lucky on a pattern once in awhile..but I still always use the first one I get no matter the price at the time and only sell dupes) and decon. Something anyone can do. I'm not rich with just a little over 18 million but it allows me to drop a million at the lux vendor, furnish my housing by supporting trade guilds and other players with my furnishing purchases and I will NEVER pay more than something is worth TO ME! I have gold because like in real life I do not live beyond my means.
Asking for pricing to be regulated by an outside entity will NOT solve a problem that doesn't exist.
No one is talking about price regulation we're talking about rent regulation. You pay a reasonable fee to rent the hall and then it's up to you to dance in it.
The Guild can establish whatever prices it wants and shall be compared to it's peers.
But the hall should be rentable by everyone and not owned by a few, which is exactly the problem that exists now and has existed for years.
The traders ARE available to every trade guild and none are "owned". Trade guild must grow into the prime trade spots just like the guilds who are in them did!
How do you figure? So tell me where your spot is, my Trade Guild has lots to sell and we need access to the market. We only have 500k but lots of things to sell. We just don't have uhh between 2 and 20 million to purchase your bid
So I guess my Guild is done because we just don't make enough gold and we don't make enough because we can't sell our goods and we can't sell our goods because we can't bid on a Kiosk and we can't bid on a Kiosk because the price is so high only a few Guilds can afford it and the cycle continues.
I'm sorry but that is not healthy competition. And the bid precludes every Guild having access to a Vendor.
[snip]
First off, what are you doing to increase your 500k guild bank? Are you having raffles, guild farming parties, auctions, fund raisers of any kind? In most cases (and I'm pretty sure its all not most) it is a total misconception that a guild can pay FOR a trader from only trader taxes collected. That's where the work and dedication of the management team comes in. It's nothing for a guild to be able to raise 2 mill for a trader if they have the right staff running things. I know, I've done it and it took months to be able to get a trader. There are some VERY nice spots in the 1.5 to 2 mill range. What research have you done on locales other than the "premium owned" spots?
Oh and lets not forget that in a lot of start ups the officer core makes large donations to get things started!Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on April 5, 2021 3:08PM4 -
Nagastani✭✭✭✭anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »Competition meaning... as it is right now, people are competing over the bid. If you win the bid then that... that means you can do what you want. Which, in a way I can kind of understand that because the bids are astronomically expensive anyways.
What I'm saying is, the system needs to be reformed to shift the energy away from the bid and make it so that the focus is on what value the Guild itself provides. The vendor should distinguish itself amongst it's peers by its value and not by it's bid being higher than everyone else, especially Guilds who themselves have value yet cannot compete with the bid.
And yes, even bids in premium/non-premium places which should be expanded to allow for increased pressure from competition at all of these locations.
The bids are NOT "astronomically high". They just appear like this because they used to be ridiculously low for YEARS due to "agreements" behind the curtains among trading guilds. Multibidding made all this obsolote and transformed the bidding market into a true market responding to supply and demand.
Heavy competition among trading guilds is a very good thing for ALL players because it gets everyone rid of small guilds with no or too few listing at prices set entirely out of the blue.
Not really no. I've never been an officer in a major trading guild, buForzaRammer wrote: »Unlike people who claim it is just 'supply and demand shift', I was right all along
I understand zos want to sell crown houses and stuff.
Here is my original solution, lower all gold gain.
Remove treasure in antique, remove daily quest gold.
Half the pvp campaign reward, half the trial plunder.
And here was another person's suggestion.
Remove transmute crystal for reconstruction, change it to gold.
Its too late for all that. ZOS isn't going to do anything of the sort anyways.
You want to fix it? I can tell you how, but first we need to start with the problem.
The problem is the Guilds are too big to fail and can charge whatever they want... and they sometimes do. And by this time in the game's lifespan we have our major trade guilds who are the players in the economy and they have no real competition. That's the problem.
The solution is to go back and rework how Kiosk Vendors are setup. Because the price to 'rent' a weekly vendor is out of sight and new Trade Guilds can't compete for space, thus only the big really profitable guilds can only compete amongst themselves.
We need more competition, the vendors should be reworked to abolish a weekly bid and set this up to encourage growth of new Trade Guilds with new ideas who don't need to bring in billions of gold every week in order to compete.
Until this changes 'they' are in charge and will continue to be and there is nothing anyone can do about it except farm your own mats.
Trading works like anything else in the game. The more time you put in the better the results. Players doing trials don't jump right into hard mode no death speed runs on vet. They join a progression guild and learn what is expected of them. Same exact thing with trading. The very top trading guilds often have room for new members because not everybody is able to trade at a level that makes being in a top tier trade guild worth while. Good news is there are more than 200 vendor spots in the game and many of those are taken by guilds that have no requirements to join. It is a myth that you can't make a decent amount of gold at these traders. I am on PC though so Tamriel Trade Centre helps some with the out of the way traders getting traffic.
I would like to see all the traders that are in a location alone get one more trader added to give more incentive to visit those places. If we put another trader in the thieves dens and beside wayshrines that have nearby traders that I think would help a lot.
A new trade guild is going to struggle just like any other specialty guild will struggle. For many players in those top tier guilds that is their end game. They send most their time in game concentrating on selling. Social guilds can and do get traders so I know if a new trade guild is persistent they can get a spot most weeks.
The big trade guilds have to compete with every other guild out there that has a trader. They have the advantage of being in a high traffic area but that doesn't mean they are not competing with the little guys. Outside of the high traffic areas it is a good idea to list most items a bit below what they are selling for in the high traffic spots but rare items will sell for same price whatever the location.
I hear what you're saying but it seems like it really doesn't.
No Trade Guild of any kind gets a Vendor unless they can compete on the weekly bid, which even for those little outlaw holes in the wall is outrageously priced and fiercely fought over. No Kiosk equals no Trade Guild in the long run and looks bad for them not to have one. Big Guilds are fine, hey I'm not against anyone making money. However, they have the capital, the resources, the loyalties of folks so they can make the money to buy the bid, which even for them has become insanely expensive.
See what I'm saying? The weekly bidding mechanic is terrible for everyone. And a new Guild, unless it's being financed by one of the big Guilds, which they have no real reason to expand, cannot buy a Kiosk and thus they cannot grow naturally. ESO economy is like a nation where the big banks are in charge and they have money, they are powerful, but the system is dying because there is no room for new growth outside of them, no room for real competition and thus your prices on everything are out of sight.
Comes as no surprise to me.
The bidding mechanic is easily largest gold sink and fierce competition ensures as much gold gets flushed down the toilet as possible each week. Trader bids easily flush hundreds of millions of gold out of the economy every week. Getting rid of it would lead to crazy hyoerinflation
It makes no sense for a new or small trade guild to get a premium spot. Those spots are considered premium only because people know the guilds there have had dedicated teams working for years building a competitive guild store. If those locations were suddenly filled with new guilds with far below average stores then people wouldn't go there to shop anyway.
New guilds start at smaller locations and grow from there. Getting a new guild off the ground is going to require a capital investment and a lot of dedication.
People think that large trade guilds only stay afloat because they're too big to fail which is completely wrong. They have a team of people putting in hours of work every week to raise money for the bid because taxes alone aren't even close to enough to afford the bid. They organize events, raffles, auctions, etc every single week and have done so for many years.
Who are you or I to decide that?
And what is a premium spot? That could all change with a new system and that is the idea here.
Then get a trader at a reasonable price in a more reasonable location? If you dont care about a premium spot than this is a non issue. If you want a premium spot then you have to put forth the effort and make good decisions to get there. You aren't going to get what others have put literal years of effort into maintaining overnight. The current bid system is actually fantastic at countering inflation and is self regulating. The more gold that is flowing around the higher the bids go and the more gold that gets pumped out. Flat fees that anyone can afford is an awful system in comparison that will cause long term problems
Reasonable according to whom? None of it is reasonable anywhere. Perhaps for you, perhaps for some Guilds it might considered reasonable. For a new Trade Guild starting out... none of this is reasonable, not anywhere in the game currently.
The flat fees are for rent. Which would actually be variable depending on the size of the guild, not to exceed 500k.
And you say it would be awful.
How awful would it be compared to what is now? Indeed it would be awful for some because over the long term you're going to have to lower prices to sell and would ensure every market has enough competition instead of uhh 4 or 5 of the same Guilds doing the same thing every week. In 'their' same premium location.
You seem to have this backwards. Those guilds are what make the spot premium, not the other way around lol. The guilds are the premium. If you replaced every trader in Mourn with random new guilds with bad stores then it wouldn't be a premium spot and people wouldn't go there to shop like they do now. If you want your guild to succeed, you need to build up a pool of good traders who will fill the trader with desirable items other players want. This takes time and years of dedication which is what others have done and continue to do. You aren't going to get what others have put years of effort into doing just because you want it. You have to put that effort in too.
None of it matters unless I can successfully bid for a public Kiosk. I'm sorry but trade guilds won't last without it.
You know this...
.....what? Get a cheaper trader and work your way up. What you seem to want is to put no effort in and still get all the benefits because new guild good, year after year of effort means nothing and bad. This doesn't even work though because if you remove all the good traders from a location then you lose all the traffic. People go to these locations because they know the traders there are stacked. If Mourn was filled with traders with 50 members selling 3 potatos then absolutely nobody would go there to shop anymore. The system you propose makes zero sense and is actually extraordinarily harmful to the economy of the game. There are plenty of reasonably priced traders in the game, start at one of them. You aren't going to go from 0 to the best overnight. It makes absolutely zero sense.
No more harmful than super-inflated bids artificially blocking new Vendors from competing now. It's no different.
You guys act like I'm trying to put controls on things, I'm trying to take them off the thing. Who cares how many Vendors are in a given place. Statistically speaking all of them will not be successful, anyways. There's no need to concern ourselves with that.
The market will work itself out if people would let it. But it can't do that without healthy competition.
Yes, grossly more harmful than inflated trader bids. Inflated trader bids are actually fantastic for the economy as they are the single biggest gold sink in the game and by and large are mostly the richest players throwing loads of their gold into the void. This preserves the purchasing power of people with not as much gold who aren't throwing away nearly as much even proportionately.
Yeah except it doesn't work that way.
And listen I'm not about telling people how to spend their money.
But what if that's not working anymore. There is now a direct correlation between ultra high bids and an ultra inflated market.
This is due to lack of competition and the same people, the same vendor spot, week after week, charging whatever they want and we all have to either pay it or go farm it.
It's so boring and so depressing that simple every day items are now completely unaffordable for new players.
Yeah except it works exactly that way lol. Guild trader bids are disproportionately funded by richer players. Generally the top 10% of contributors front more than 80% of the bid. If your guild has a 200k minimum, you are paying 7k a week in guild taxes. If you had 500 members and everyone did this, you would have 3.5m in taxes collected. You aren't even remotely close to a trader bid in Mourn at this point. Obviously the higher sellers pay more in taxes, but taxes alone arent enough to fund the bid. Thats when rich players pay far over market value for items in guild auctions to fund the trader bid. These rich players' gold then gets thrown into the abyss via the bid. Lower income players still are only putting in 7k and receiving all the same benefits. Their purchasing power is preserved as the massive gold sink aggressively fights inflation. The system has the added benefit of being self sustaining as the more gold is floating around, the higher the bids go which is why ESO experiences far less inflation than other MMOs.
What you are proposing would remove the single largest gold sink in the game. If a low income player gets most of their gold from a static source, it begins to lose purchasing power. The 5k they get from writs gradually is worth less and less. The trader bids are super favorable to lower income players and removing it would cause massive negative consequences.
Hah ok, hey, I've presented my case and think I have a good argument. The writing is on the wall here as is the reason it won't ever change
In the mean while I shall avoid the market like the plague which will slow down development on this end because things like Dreugh Wax are now upwards of 17k.
But hey, you guys say there's no problem. All is well.
And with that said, time for lunch.1 -
Eedat✭✭✭✭✭anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »Competition meaning... as it is right now, people are competing over the bid. If you win the bid then that... that means you can do what you want. Which, in a way I can kind of understand that because the bids are astronomically expensive anyways.
What I'm saying is, the system needs to be reformed to shift the energy away from the bid and make it so that the focus is on what value the Guild itself provides. The vendor should distinguish itself amongst it's peers by its value and not by it's bid being higher than everyone else, especially Guilds who themselves have value yet cannot compete with the bid.
And yes, even bids in premium/non-premium places which should be expanded to allow for increased pressure from competition at all of these locations.
The bids are NOT "astronomically high". They just appear like this because they used to be ridiculously low for YEARS due to "agreements" behind the curtains among trading guilds. Multibidding made all this obsolote and transformed the bidding market into a true market responding to supply and demand.
Heavy competition among trading guilds is a very good thing for ALL players because it gets everyone rid of small guilds with no or too few listing at prices set entirely out of the blue.
Not really no. I've never been an officer in a major trading guild, buForzaRammer wrote: »Unlike people who claim it is just 'supply and demand shift', I was right all along
I understand zos want to sell crown houses and stuff.
Here is my original solution, lower all gold gain.
Remove treasure in antique, remove daily quest gold.
Half the pvp campaign reward, half the trial plunder.
And here was another person's suggestion.
Remove transmute crystal for reconstruction, change it to gold.
Its too late for all that. ZOS isn't going to do anything of the sort anyways.
You want to fix it? I can tell you how, but first we need to start with the problem.
The problem is the Guilds are too big to fail and can charge whatever they want... and they sometimes do. And by this time in the game's lifespan we have our major trade guilds who are the players in the economy and they have no real competition. That's the problem.
The solution is to go back and rework how Kiosk Vendors are setup. Because the price to 'rent' a weekly vendor is out of sight and new Trade Guilds can't compete for space, thus only the big really profitable guilds can only compete amongst themselves.
We need more competition, the vendors should be reworked to abolish a weekly bid and set this up to encourage growth of new Trade Guilds with new ideas who don't need to bring in billions of gold every week in order to compete.
Until this changes 'they' are in charge and will continue to be and there is nothing anyone can do about it except farm your own mats.
Trading works like anything else in the game. The more time you put in the better the results. Players doing trials don't jump right into hard mode no death speed runs on vet. They join a progression guild and learn what is expected of them. Same exact thing with trading. The very top trading guilds often have room for new members because not everybody is able to trade at a level that makes being in a top tier trade guild worth while. Good news is there are more than 200 vendor spots in the game and many of those are taken by guilds that have no requirements to join. It is a myth that you can't make a decent amount of gold at these traders. I am on PC though so Tamriel Trade Centre helps some with the out of the way traders getting traffic.
I would like to see all the traders that are in a location alone get one more trader added to give more incentive to visit those places. If we put another trader in the thieves dens and beside wayshrines that have nearby traders that I think would help a lot.
A new trade guild is going to struggle just like any other specialty guild will struggle. For many players in those top tier guilds that is their end game. They send most their time in game concentrating on selling. Social guilds can and do get traders so I know if a new trade guild is persistent they can get a spot most weeks.
The big trade guilds have to compete with every other guild out there that has a trader. They have the advantage of being in a high traffic area but that doesn't mean they are not competing with the little guys. Outside of the high traffic areas it is a good idea to list most items a bit below what they are selling for in the high traffic spots but rare items will sell for same price whatever the location.
I hear what you're saying but it seems like it really doesn't.
No Trade Guild of any kind gets a Vendor unless they can compete on the weekly bid, which even for those little outlaw holes in the wall is outrageously priced and fiercely fought over. No Kiosk equals no Trade Guild in the long run and looks bad for them not to have one. Big Guilds are fine, hey I'm not against anyone making money. However, they have the capital, the resources, the loyalties of folks so they can make the money to buy the bid, which even for them has become insanely expensive.
See what I'm saying? The weekly bidding mechanic is terrible for everyone. And a new Guild, unless it's being financed by one of the big Guilds, which they have no real reason to expand, cannot buy a Kiosk and thus they cannot grow naturally. ESO economy is like a nation where the big banks are in charge and they have money, they are powerful, but the system is dying because there is no room for new growth outside of them, no room for real competition and thus your prices on everything are out of sight.
Comes as no surprise to me.
The bidding mechanic is easily largest gold sink and fierce competition ensures as much gold gets flushed down the toilet as possible each week. Trader bids easily flush hundreds of millions of gold out of the economy every week. Getting rid of it would lead to crazy hyoerinflation
It makes no sense for a new or small trade guild to get a premium spot. Those spots are considered premium only because people know the guilds there have had dedicated teams working for years building a competitive guild store. If those locations were suddenly filled with new guilds with far below average stores then people wouldn't go there to shop anyway.
New guilds start at smaller locations and grow from there. Getting a new guild off the ground is going to require a capital investment and a lot of dedication.
People think that large trade guilds only stay afloat because they're too big to fail which is completely wrong. They have a team of people putting in hours of work every week to raise money for the bid because taxes alone aren't even close to enough to afford the bid. They organize events, raffles, auctions, etc every single week and have done so for many years.
Who are you or I to decide that?
And what is a premium spot? That could all change with a new system and that is the idea here.
Then get a trader at a reasonable price in a more reasonable location? If you dont care about a premium spot than this is a non issue. If you want a premium spot then you have to put forth the effort and make good decisions to get there. You aren't going to get what others have put literal years of effort into maintaining overnight. The current bid system is actually fantastic at countering inflation and is self regulating. The more gold that is flowing around the higher the bids go and the more gold that gets pumped out. Flat fees that anyone can afford is an awful system in comparison that will cause long term problems
Reasonable according to whom? None of it is reasonable anywhere. Perhaps for you, perhaps for some Guilds it might considered reasonable. For a new Trade Guild starting out... none of this is reasonable, not anywhere in the game currently.
The flat fees are for rent. Which would actually be variable depending on the size of the guild, not to exceed 500k.
And you say it would be awful.
How awful would it be compared to what is now? Indeed it would be awful for some because over the long term you're going to have to lower prices to sell and would ensure every market has enough competition instead of uhh 4 or 5 of the same Guilds doing the same thing every week. In 'their' same premium location.
You seem to have this backwards. Those guilds are what make the spot premium, not the other way around lol. The guilds are the premium. If you replaced every trader in Mourn with random new guilds with bad stores then it wouldn't be a premium spot and people wouldn't go there to shop like they do now. If you want your guild to succeed, you need to build up a pool of good traders who will fill the trader with desirable items other players want. This takes time and years of dedication which is what others have done and continue to do. You aren't going to get what others have put years of effort into doing just because you want it. You have to put that effort in too.
None of it matters unless I can successfully bid for a public Kiosk. I'm sorry but trade guilds won't last without it.
You know this...
.....what? Get a cheaper trader and work your way up. What you seem to want is to put no effort in and still get all the benefits because new guild good, year after year of effort means nothing and bad. This doesn't even work though because if you remove all the good traders from a location then you lose all the traffic. People go to these locations because they know the traders there are stacked. If Mourn was filled with traders with 50 members selling 3 potatos then absolutely nobody would go there to shop anymore. The system you propose makes zero sense and is actually extraordinarily harmful to the economy of the game. There are plenty of reasonably priced traders in the game, start at one of them. You aren't going to go from 0 to the best overnight. It makes absolutely zero sense.
No more harmful than super-inflated bids artificially blocking new Vendors from competing now. It's no different.
You guys act like I'm trying to put controls on things, I'm trying to take them off the thing. Who cares how many Vendors are in a given place. Statistically speaking all of them will not be successful, anyways. There's no need to concern ourselves with that.
The market will work itself out if people would let it. But it can't do that without healthy competition.
Yes, grossly more harmful than inflated trader bids. Inflated trader bids are actually fantastic for the economy as they are the single biggest gold sink in the game and by and large are mostly the richest players throwing loads of their gold into the void. This preserves the purchasing power of people with not as much gold who aren't throwing away nearly as much even proportionately.
Yeah except it doesn't work that way.
And listen I'm not about telling people how to spend their money.
But what if that's not working anymore. There is now a direct correlation between ultra high bids and an ultra inflated market.
This is due to lack of competition and the same people, the same vendor spot, week after week, charging whatever they want and we all have to either pay it or go farm it.
It's so boring and so depressing that simple every day items are now completely unaffordable for new players.
Yeah except it works exactly that way lol. Guild trader bids are disproportionately funded by richer players. Generally the top 10% of contributors front more than 80% of the bid. If your guild has a 200k minimum, you are paying 7k a week in guild taxes. If you had 500 members and everyone did this, you would have 3.5m in taxes collected. You aren't even remotely close to a trader bid in Mourn at this point. Obviously the higher sellers pay more in taxes, but taxes alone arent enough to fund the bid. Thats when rich players pay far over market value for items in guild auctions to fund the trader bid. These rich players' gold then gets thrown into the abyss via the bid. Lower income players still are only putting in 7k and receiving all the same benefits. Their purchasing power is preserved as the massive gold sink aggressively fights inflation. The system has the added benefit of being self sustaining as the more gold is floating around, the higher the bids go which is why ESO experiences far less inflation than other MMOs.
What you are proposing would remove the single largest gold sink in the game. If a low income player gets most of their gold from a static source, it begins to lose purchasing power. The 5k they get from writs gradually is worth less and less. The trader bids are super favorable to lower income players and removing it would cause massive negative consequences.
Hah ok, hey, I've presented my case and think I have a good argument. The writing is on the wall here as is the reason it won't ever change
In the mean while I shall avoid the market like the plague which will slow down development on this end because things like Dreugh Wax are now upwards of 17k.
But hey, you guys say there's no problem. All is well.
And with that said, time for lunch.
Then start doing crafting writs to get your free gold and dreugh wax. Sell the ones you dont need. Or go out and farm it. You can literally make 150k+ an hour picking mats off the ground in Craglorn.3 -
robertthebard✭✭✭✭✭robertthebard wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Unlike people who claim it is just 'supply and demand shift', I was right all along
I understand zos want to sell crown houses and stuff.
Here is my original solution, lower all gold gain.
Remove treasure in antique, remove daily quest gold.
Half the pvp campaign reward, half the trial plunder.
And here was another person's suggestion.
Remove transmute crystal for reconstruction, change it to gold.
Its too late for all that. ZOS isn't going to do anything of the sort anyways.
You want to fix it? I can tell you how, but first we need to start with the problem.
The problem is the Guilds are too big to fail and can charge whatever they want... and they sometimes do. And by this time in the game's lifespan we have our major trade guilds who are the players in the economy and they have no real competition. That's the problem.
The solution is to go back and rework how Kiosk Vendors are setup. Because the price to 'rent' a weekly vendor is out of sight and new Trade Guilds can't compete for space, thus only the big really profitable guilds can only compete amongst themselves.
We need more competition, the vendors should be reworked to abolish a weekly bid and set this up to encourage growth of new Trade Guilds with new ideas who don't need to bring in billions of gold every week in order to compete.
Until this changes 'they' are in charge and will continue to be and there is nothing anyone can do about it except farm your own mats.
Trading works like anything else in the game. The more time you put in the better the results. Players doing trials don't jump right into hard mode no death speed runs on vet. They join a progression guild and learn what is expected of them. Same exact thing with trading. The very top trading guilds often have room for new members because not everybody is able to trade at a level that makes being in a top tier trade guild worth while. Good news is there are more than 200 vendor spots in the game and many of those are taken by guilds that have no requirements to join. It is a myth that you can't make a decent amount of gold at these traders. I am on PC though so Tamriel Trade Centre helps some with the out of the way traders getting traffic.
I would like to see all the traders that are in a location alone get one more trader added to give more incentive to visit those places. If we put another trader in the thieves dens and beside wayshrines that have nearby traders that I think would help a lot.
A new trade guild is going to struggle just like any other specialty guild will struggle. For many players in those top tier guilds that is their end game. They send most their time in game concentrating on selling. Social guilds can and do get traders so I know if a new trade guild is persistent they can get a spot most weeks.
The big trade guilds have to compete with every other guild out there that has a trader. They have the advantage of being in a high traffic area but that doesn't mean they are not competing with the little guys. Outside of the high traffic areas it is a good idea to list most items a bit below what they are selling for in the high traffic spots but rare items will sell for same price whatever the location.
I hear what you're saying but it seems like it really doesn't.
No Trade Guild of any kind gets a Vendor unless they can compete on the weekly bid, which even for those little outlaw holes in the wall is outrageously priced and fiercely fought over. No Kiosk equals no Trade Guild in the long run and looks bad for them not to have one. Big Guilds are fine, hey I'm not against anyone making money. However, they have the capital, the resources, the loyalties of folks so they can make the money to buy the bid, which even for them has become insanely expensive.
See what I'm saying? The weekly bidding mechanic is terrible for everyone. And a new Guild, unless it's being financed by one of the big Guilds, which they have no real reason to expand, cannot buy a Kiosk and thus they cannot grow naturally. ESO economy is like a nation where the big banks are in charge and they have money, they are powerful, but the system is dying because there is no room for new growth outside of them, no room for real competition and thus your prices on everything are out of sight.
Comes as no surprise to me.
The bidding mechanic is easily largest gold sink and fierce competition ensures as much gold gets flushed down the toilet as possible each week. Trader bids easily flush hundreds of millions of gold out of the economy every week. Getting rid of it would lead to crazy hyoerinflation
It makes no sense for a new or small trade guild to get a premium spot. Those spots are considered premium only because people know the guilds there have had dedicated teams working for years building a competitive guild store. If those locations were suddenly filled with new guilds with far below average stores then people wouldn't go there to shop anyway.
New guilds start at smaller locations and grow from there. Getting a new guild off the ground is going to require a capital investment and a lot of dedication.
People think that large trade guilds only stay afloat because they're too big to fail which is completely wrong. They have a team of people putting in hours of work every week to raise money for the bid because taxes alone aren't even close to enough to afford the bid. They organize events, raffles, auctions, etc every single week and have done so for many years.
Who are you or I to decide that?
And what is a premium spot? That could all change with a new system and that is the idea here.
Then get a trader at a reasonable price in a more reasonable location? If you dont care about a premium spot than this is a non issue. If you want a premium spot then you have to put forth the effort and make good decisions to get there. You aren't going to get what others have put literal years of effort into maintaining overnight. The current bid system is actually fantastic at countering inflation and is self regulating. The more gold that is flowing around the higher the bids go and the more gold that gets pumped out. Flat fees that anyone can afford is an awful system in comparison that will cause long term problems
Reasonable according to whom? None of it is reasonable anywhere. Perhaps for you, perhaps for some Guilds it might considered reasonable. For a new Trade Guild starting out... none of this is reasonable, not anywhere in the game currently.
The flat fees are for rent. Which would actually be variable depending on the size of the guild, not to exceed 500k.
And you say it would be awful.
How awful would it be compared to what is now? Indeed it would be awful for some because over the long term you're going to have to lower prices to sell and would ensure every market has enough competition instead of uhh 4 or 5 of the same Guilds doing the same thing every week. In 'their' same premium location.
You seem to have this backwards. Those guilds are what make the spot premium, not the other way around lol. The guilds are the premium. If you replaced every trader in Mourn with random new guilds with bad stores then it wouldn't be a premium spot and people wouldn't go there to shop like they do now. If you want your guild to succeed, you need to build up a pool of good traders who will fill the trader with desirable items other players want. This takes time and years of dedication which is what others have done and continue to do. You aren't going to get what others have put years of effort into doing just because you want it. You have to put that effort in too.
I'm going to have to disagree with this assessment. A spot isn't valuable because of the guild, it's valuable because of the traffic through it. A high traffic area, such as someone's earlier example of a downtown location, will be more valuable than a low traffic area, the edge of town, from the same example. How desirable a location is is how we end up with "high rent districts"...
Except there isn't this concept of traffic in ESO. You can teleport anywhere on the continent in seconds. You dont need to pass through a specific area or take a specific route through a major city to get places. There needs to be a reason to get people to go there. People go shopping in Mourn because they know the traders are stacked
Then no spots should be all that valuable. Except that we both know that that's not the case, right? There's a reason some spots have really high bids, and some don't, and it's not "because of the guild", it's because of where it is. Then there's you countering your own argument, in this post. "There's no such thing as traffic, but more people go to Mourn"... That seems to be a very desirable spot, because lots of people will go there. Literal translation: "Mourn is a high traffic area, so people pay high prices for shops"...
1 -
THEDKEXPERIENCE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭A new trade guild is just like any new small business. It takes time to grow before you can compete with larger more established businesses. "Management" must learn how and be as dedicated as management of the larger businesses. The better the management team the better growth. Expecting a new trading guild to compete with an established one is just silly.
Similarly, accumulating gold is a learning process. When I first started all my gold came from quests, writs and selling to vendors. After a few months I had accumalated almost a million then joined a small trading guild. It took MONTHS for me to learn how to sell, what to sell and when. Almost 2 years later, I'm in one of the larger trading guilds, established in Grahtwood, and sell 500k to a little over a million a week. I do the occasional flip but mostly I farm (getting lucky on a pattern once in awhile..but I still always use the first one I get no matter the price at the time and only sell dupes) and decon. Something anyone can do. I'm not rich with just a little over 18 million but it allows me to drop a million at the lux vendor, furnish my housing by supporting trade guilds and other players with my furnishing purchases and I will NEVER pay more than something is worth TO ME! I have gold because like in real life I do not live beyond my means.
Asking for pricing to be regulated by an outside entity will NOT solve a problem that doesn't exist.
No one is talking about price regulation we're talking about rent regulation. You pay a reasonable fee to rent the hall and then it's up to you to dance in it.
The Guild can establish whatever prices it wants and shall be compared to it's peers.
But the hall should be rentable by everyone and not owned by a few, which is exactly the problem that exists now and has existed for years.
The traders ARE available to every trade guild and none are "owned". Trade guild must grow into the prime trade spots just like the guilds who are in them did!
How do you figure? So tell me where your spot is, my Trade Guild has lots to sell and we need access to the market. We only have 500k but lots of things to sell. We just don't have uhh between 2 and 20 million to purchase your bid
So I guess my Guild is done because we just don't make enough gold and we don't make enough because we can't sell our goods and we can't sell our goods because we can't bid on a Kiosk and we can't bid on a Kiosk because the price is so high only a few Guilds can afford it and the cycle continues.
I'm sorry but that is not healthy competition. And the bid precludes every Guild having access to a Vendor.
[snip]
[snip]
Just like in real life, if you want to get ahead the only way you’re getting big enough to compete with an established monolith is to have a billionaire invest in your store. If you cannot provide enough to convince a billionaire to invest then your store isn’t valuable enough to compete with the established powerhouse.
[Edited to remove Baiting]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on April 5, 2021 3:09PM1 -
Surak73✭✭✭✭✭ForzaRammer wrote: »Unlike people who claim it is just 'supply and demand shift', I was right all along
I understand zos want to sell crown houses and stuff.
Here is my original solution, lower all gold gain.
Remove treasure in antique, remove daily quest gold.
Half the pvp campaign reward, half the trial plunder.
And here was another person's suggestion.
Remove transmute crystal for reconstruction, change it to gold.
Nope. This would penalize most new players who have less gold. We need a BIG gold sink instead, and when I say BIG I mean something like a gold-for-crowns official exchange.0 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »Competition meaning... as it is right now, people are competing over the bid. If you win the bid then that... that means you can do what you want. Which, in a way I can kind of understand that because the bids are astronomically expensive anyways.
What I'm saying is, the system needs to be reformed to shift the energy away from the bid and make it so that the focus is on what value the Guild itself provides. The vendor should distinguish itself amongst it's peers by its value and not by it's bid being higher than everyone else, especially Guilds who themselves have value yet cannot compete with the bid.
And yes, even bids in premium/non-premium places which should be expanded to allow for increased pressure from competition at all of these locations.
The bids are NOT "astronomically high". They just appear like this because they used to be ridiculously low for YEARS due to "agreements" behind the curtains among trading guilds. Multibidding made all this obsolote and transformed the bidding market into a true market responding to supply and demand.
Heavy competition among trading guilds is a very good thing for ALL players because it gets everyone rid of small guilds with no or too few listing at prices set entirely out of the blue.
Not really no. I've never been an officer in a major trading guild, buForzaRammer wrote: »Unlike people who claim it is just 'supply and demand shift', I was right all along
I understand zos want to sell crown houses and stuff.
Here is my original solution, lower all gold gain.
Remove treasure in antique, remove daily quest gold.
Half the pvp campaign reward, half the trial plunder.
And here was another person's suggestion.
Remove transmute crystal for reconstruction, change it to gold.
Its too late for all that. ZOS isn't going to do anything of the sort anyways.
You want to fix it? I can tell you how, but first we need to start with the problem.
The problem is the Guilds are too big to fail and can charge whatever they want... and they sometimes do. And by this time in the game's lifespan we have our major trade guilds who are the players in the economy and they have no real competition. That's the problem.
The solution is to go back and rework how Kiosk Vendors are setup. Because the price to 'rent' a weekly vendor is out of sight and new Trade Guilds can't compete for space, thus only the big really profitable guilds can only compete amongst themselves.
We need more competition, the vendors should be reworked to abolish a weekly bid and set this up to encourage growth of new Trade Guilds with new ideas who don't need to bring in billions of gold every week in order to compete.
Until this changes 'they' are in charge and will continue to be and there is nothing anyone can do about it except farm your own mats.
Trading works like anything else in the game. The more time you put in the better the results. Players doing trials don't jump right into hard mode no death speed runs on vet. They join a progression guild and learn what is expected of them. Same exact thing with trading. The very top trading guilds often have room for new members because not everybody is able to trade at a level that makes being in a top tier trade guild worth while. Good news is there are more than 200 vendor spots in the game and many of those are taken by guilds that have no requirements to join. It is a myth that you can't make a decent amount of gold at these traders. I am on PC though so Tamriel Trade Centre helps some with the out of the way traders getting traffic.
I would like to see all the traders that are in a location alone get one more trader added to give more incentive to visit those places. If we put another trader in the thieves dens and beside wayshrines that have nearby traders that I think would help a lot.
A new trade guild is going to struggle just like any other specialty guild will struggle. For many players in those top tier guilds that is their end game. They send most their time in game concentrating on selling. Social guilds can and do get traders so I know if a new trade guild is persistent they can get a spot most weeks.
The big trade guilds have to compete with every other guild out there that has a trader. They have the advantage of being in a high traffic area but that doesn't mean they are not competing with the little guys. Outside of the high traffic areas it is a good idea to list most items a bit below what they are selling for in the high traffic spots but rare items will sell for same price whatever the location.
I hear what you're saying but it seems like it really doesn't.
No Trade Guild of any kind gets a Vendor unless they can compete on the weekly bid, which even for those little outlaw holes in the wall is outrageously priced and fiercely fought over. No Kiosk equals no Trade Guild in the long run and looks bad for them not to have one. Big Guilds are fine, hey I'm not against anyone making money. However, they have the capital, the resources, the loyalties of folks so they can make the money to buy the bid, which even for them has become insanely expensive.
See what I'm saying? The weekly bidding mechanic is terrible for everyone. And a new Guild, unless it's being financed by one of the big Guilds, which they have no real reason to expand, cannot buy a Kiosk and thus they cannot grow naturally. ESO economy is like a nation where the big banks are in charge and they have money, they are powerful, but the system is dying because there is no room for new growth outside of them, no room for real competition and thus your prices on everything are out of sight.
Comes as no surprise to me.
The bidding mechanic is easily largest gold sink and fierce competition ensures as much gold gets flushed down the toilet as possible each week. Trader bids easily flush hundreds of millions of gold out of the economy every week. Getting rid of it would lead to crazy hyoerinflation
It makes no sense for a new or small trade guild to get a premium spot. Those spots are considered premium only because people know the guilds there have had dedicated teams working for years building a competitive guild store. If those locations were suddenly filled with new guilds with far below average stores then people wouldn't go there to shop anyway.
New guilds start at smaller locations and grow from there. Getting a new guild off the ground is going to require a capital investment and a lot of dedication.
People think that large trade guilds only stay afloat because they're too big to fail which is completely wrong. They have a team of people putting in hours of work every week to raise money for the bid because taxes alone aren't even close to enough to afford the bid. They organize events, raffles, auctions, etc every single week and have done so for many years.
Who are you or I to decide that?
And what is a premium spot? That could all change with a new system and that is the idea here.
Then get a trader at a reasonable price in a more reasonable location? If you dont care about a premium spot than this is a non issue. If you want a premium spot then you have to put forth the effort and make good decisions to get there. You aren't going to get what others have put literal years of effort into maintaining overnight. The current bid system is actually fantastic at countering inflation and is self regulating. The more gold that is flowing around the higher the bids go and the more gold that gets pumped out. Flat fees that anyone can afford is an awful system in comparison that will cause long term problems
Reasonable according to whom? None of it is reasonable anywhere. Perhaps for you, perhaps for some Guilds it might considered reasonable. For a new Trade Guild starting out... none of this is reasonable, not anywhere in the game currently.
The flat fees are for rent. Which would actually be variable depending on the size of the guild, not to exceed 500k.
And you say it would be awful.
How awful would it be compared to what is now? Indeed it would be awful for some because over the long term you're going to have to lower prices to sell and would ensure every market has enough competition instead of uhh 4 or 5 of the same Guilds doing the same thing every week. In 'their' same premium location.
You seem to have this backwards. Those guilds are what make the spot premium, not the other way around lol. The guilds are the premium. If you replaced every trader in Mourn with random new guilds with bad stores then it wouldn't be a premium spot and people wouldn't go there to shop like they do now. If you want your guild to succeed, you need to build up a pool of good traders who will fill the trader with desirable items other players want. This takes time and years of dedication which is what others have done and continue to do. You aren't going to get what others have put years of effort into doing just because you want it. You have to put that effort in too.
None of it matters unless I can successfully bid for a public Kiosk. I'm sorry but trade guilds won't last without it.
You know this...
.....what? Get a cheaper trader and work your way up. What you seem to want is to put no effort in and still get all the benefits because new guild good, year after year of effort means nothing and bad. This doesn't even work though because if you remove all the good traders from a location then you lose all the traffic. People go to these locations because they know the traders there are stacked. If Mourn was filled with traders with 50 members selling 3 potatos then absolutely nobody would go there to shop anymore. The system you propose makes zero sense and is actually extraordinarily harmful to the economy of the game. There are plenty of reasonably priced traders in the game, start at one of them. You aren't going to go from 0 to the best overnight. It makes absolutely zero sense.
No more harmful than super-inflated bids artificially blocking new Vendors from competing now. It's no different.
You guys act like I'm trying to put controls on things, I'm trying to take them off the thing. Who cares how many Vendors are in a given place. Statistically speaking all of them will not be successful, anyways. There's no need to concern ourselves with that.
The market will work itself out if people would let it. But it can't do that without healthy competition.
Yes, grossly more harmful than inflated trader bids. Inflated trader bids are actually fantastic for the economy as they are the single biggest gold sink in the game and by and large are mostly the richest players throwing loads of their gold into the void. This preserves the purchasing power of people with not as much gold who aren't throwing away nearly as much even proportionately.
Yeah except it doesn't work that way.
And listen I'm not about telling people how to spend their money.
But what if that's not working anymore. There is now a direct correlation between ultra high bids and an ultra inflated market.
This is due to lack of competition and the same people, the same vendor spot, week after week, charging whatever they want and we all have to either pay it or go farm it.
It's so boring and so depressing that simple every day items are now completely unaffordable for new players.
Yeah except it works exactly that way lol. Guild trader bids are disproportionately funded by richer players. Generally the top 10% of contributors front more than 80% of the bid. If your guild has a 200k minimum, you are paying 7k a week in guild taxes. If you had 500 members and everyone did this, you would have 3.5m in taxes collected. You aren't even remotely close to a trader bid in Mourn at this point. Obviously the higher sellers pay more in taxes, but taxes alone arent enough to fund the bid. Thats when rich players pay far over market value for items in guild auctions to fund the trader bid. These rich players' gold then gets thrown into the abyss via the bid. Lower income players still are only putting in 7k and receiving all the same benefits. Their purchasing power is preserved as the massive gold sink aggressively fights inflation. The system has the added benefit of being self sustaining as the more gold is floating around, the higher the bids go which is why ESO experiences far less inflation than other MMOs.
What you are proposing would remove the single largest gold sink in the game. If a low income player gets most of their gold from a static source, it begins to lose purchasing power. The 5k they get from writs gradually is worth less and less. The trader bids are super favorable to lower income players and removing it would cause massive negative consequences.
Hah ok, hey, I've presented my case and think I have a good argument. The writing is on the wall here as is the reason it won't ever change
In the mean while I shall avoid the market like the plague which will slow down development on this end because things like Dreugh Wax are now upwards of 17k.
But hey, you guys say there's no problem. All is well.
And with that said, time for lunch.
The more the prices get thrown around, the more this is apparent as just a PC issue, because console prices are nowhere near that. So rather than burn the market down to address the issues of one platform, maybe look at the reasons why that platform is doing so poorly price wise.
Trader add-ons. It really is the major difference between PC and console. They essentially act as Auction Houses, consolidating prices. If there were any argument to work against the inclusion of an Auction house, it would be the disparity between console and PC with add-ons.
There is nothing wrong with the current system. What players have done to augment the system is the real reason for the "struggles." And I put that in quotation marks, because affordability of items is really not a thing that matters. Players who are doing the farming and selling the goods can set whatever prices they want for an item. If you don't like the prices, farm the items yourself. If you don't have time to do that, tough luck, you don't need or deserve the items. You want them.0 -
Nagastani✭✭✭✭anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »Competition meaning... as it is right now, people are competing over the bid. If you win the bid then that... that means you can do what you want. Which, in a way I can kind of understand that because the bids are astronomically expensive anyways.
What I'm saying is, the system needs to be reformed to shift the energy away from the bid and make it so that the focus is on what value the Guild itself provides. The vendor should distinguish itself amongst it's peers by its value and not by it's bid being higher than everyone else, especially Guilds who themselves have value yet cannot compete with the bid.
And yes, even bids in premium/non-premium places which should be expanded to allow for increased pressure from competition at all of these locations.
The bids are NOT "astronomically high". They just appear like this because they used to be ridiculously low for YEARS due to "agreements" behind the curtains among trading guilds. Multibidding made all this obsolote and transformed the bidding market into a true market responding to supply and demand.
Heavy competition among trading guilds is a very good thing for ALL players because it gets everyone rid of small guilds with no or too few listing at prices set entirely out of the blue.
Not really no. I've never been an officer in a major trading guild, buForzaRammer wrote: »Unlike people who claim it is just 'supply and demand shift', I was right all along
I understand zos want to sell crown houses and stuff.
Here is my original solution, lower all gold gain.
Remove treasure in antique, remove daily quest gold.
Half the pvp campaign reward, half the trial plunder.
And here was another person's suggestion.
Remove transmute crystal for reconstruction, change it to gold.
Its too late for all that. ZOS isn't going to do anything of the sort anyways.
You want to fix it? I can tell you how, but first we need to start with the problem.
The problem is the Guilds are too big to fail and can charge whatever they want... and they sometimes do. And by this time in the game's lifespan we have our major trade guilds who are the players in the economy and they have no real competition. That's the problem.
The solution is to go back and rework how Kiosk Vendors are setup. Because the price to 'rent' a weekly vendor is out of sight and new Trade Guilds can't compete for space, thus only the big really profitable guilds can only compete amongst themselves.
We need more competition, the vendors should be reworked to abolish a weekly bid and set this up to encourage growth of new Trade Guilds with new ideas who don't need to bring in billions of gold every week in order to compete.
Until this changes 'they' are in charge and will continue to be and there is nothing anyone can do about it except farm your own mats.
Trading works like anything else in the game. The more time you put in the better the results. Players doing trials don't jump right into hard mode no death speed runs on vet. They join a progression guild and learn what is expected of them. Same exact thing with trading. The very top trading guilds often have room for new members because not everybody is able to trade at a level that makes being in a top tier trade guild worth while. Good news is there are more than 200 vendor spots in the game and many of those are taken by guilds that have no requirements to join. It is a myth that you can't make a decent amount of gold at these traders. I am on PC though so Tamriel Trade Centre helps some with the out of the way traders getting traffic.
I would like to see all the traders that are in a location alone get one more trader added to give more incentive to visit those places. If we put another trader in the thieves dens and beside wayshrines that have nearby traders that I think would help a lot.
A new trade guild is going to struggle just like any other specialty guild will struggle. For many players in those top tier guilds that is their end game. They send most their time in game concentrating on selling. Social guilds can and do get traders so I know if a new trade guild is persistent they can get a spot most weeks.
The big trade guilds have to compete with every other guild out there that has a trader. They have the advantage of being in a high traffic area but that doesn't mean they are not competing with the little guys. Outside of the high traffic areas it is a good idea to list most items a bit below what they are selling for in the high traffic spots but rare items will sell for same price whatever the location.
I hear what you're saying but it seems like it really doesn't.
No Trade Guild of any kind gets a Vendor unless they can compete on the weekly bid, which even for those little outlaw holes in the wall is outrageously priced and fiercely fought over. No Kiosk equals no Trade Guild in the long run and looks bad for them not to have one. Big Guilds are fine, hey I'm not against anyone making money. However, they have the capital, the resources, the loyalties of folks so they can make the money to buy the bid, which even for them has become insanely expensive.
See what I'm saying? The weekly bidding mechanic is terrible for everyone. And a new Guild, unless it's being financed by one of the big Guilds, which they have no real reason to expand, cannot buy a Kiosk and thus they cannot grow naturally. ESO economy is like a nation where the big banks are in charge and they have money, they are powerful, but the system is dying because there is no room for new growth outside of them, no room for real competition and thus your prices on everything are out of sight.
Comes as no surprise to me.
The bidding mechanic is easily largest gold sink and fierce competition ensures as much gold gets flushed down the toilet as possible each week. Trader bids easily flush hundreds of millions of gold out of the economy every week. Getting rid of it would lead to crazy hyoerinflation
It makes no sense for a new or small trade guild to get a premium spot. Those spots are considered premium only because people know the guilds there have had dedicated teams working for years building a competitive guild store. If those locations were suddenly filled with new guilds with far below average stores then people wouldn't go there to shop anyway.
New guilds start at smaller locations and grow from there. Getting a new guild off the ground is going to require a capital investment and a lot of dedication.
People think that large trade guilds only stay afloat because they're too big to fail which is completely wrong. They have a team of people putting in hours of work every week to raise money for the bid because taxes alone aren't even close to enough to afford the bid. They organize events, raffles, auctions, etc every single week and have done so for many years.
Who are you or I to decide that?
And what is a premium spot? That could all change with a new system and that is the idea here.
Then get a trader at a reasonable price in a more reasonable location? If you dont care about a premium spot than this is a non issue. If you want a premium spot then you have to put forth the effort and make good decisions to get there. You aren't going to get what others have put literal years of effort into maintaining overnight. The current bid system is actually fantastic at countering inflation and is self regulating. The more gold that is flowing around the higher the bids go and the more gold that gets pumped out. Flat fees that anyone can afford is an awful system in comparison that will cause long term problems
Reasonable according to whom? None of it is reasonable anywhere. Perhaps for you, perhaps for some Guilds it might considered reasonable. For a new Trade Guild starting out... none of this is reasonable, not anywhere in the game currently.
The flat fees are for rent. Which would actually be variable depending on the size of the guild, not to exceed 500k.
And you say it would be awful.
How awful would it be compared to what is now? Indeed it would be awful for some because over the long term you're going to have to lower prices to sell and would ensure every market has enough competition instead of uhh 4 or 5 of the same Guilds doing the same thing every week. In 'their' same premium location.
You seem to have this backwards. Those guilds are what make the spot premium, not the other way around lol. The guilds are the premium. If you replaced every trader in Mourn with random new guilds with bad stores then it wouldn't be a premium spot and people wouldn't go there to shop like they do now. If you want your guild to succeed, you need to build up a pool of good traders who will fill the trader with desirable items other players want. This takes time and years of dedication which is what others have done and continue to do. You aren't going to get what others have put years of effort into doing just because you want it. You have to put that effort in too.
None of it matters unless I can successfully bid for a public Kiosk. I'm sorry but trade guilds won't last without it.
You know this...
.....what? Get a cheaper trader and work your way up. What you seem to want is to put no effort in and still get all the benefits because new guild good, year after year of effort means nothing and bad. This doesn't even work though because if you remove all the good traders from a location then you lose all the traffic. People go to these locations because they know the traders there are stacked. If Mourn was filled with traders with 50 members selling 3 potatos then absolutely nobody would go there to shop anymore. The system you propose makes zero sense and is actually extraordinarily harmful to the economy of the game. There are plenty of reasonably priced traders in the game, start at one of them. You aren't going to go from 0 to the best overnight. It makes absolutely zero sense.
No more harmful than super-inflated bids artificially blocking new Vendors from competing now. It's no different.
You guys act like I'm trying to put controls on things, I'm trying to take them off the thing. Who cares how many Vendors are in a given place. Statistically speaking all of them will not be successful, anyways. There's no need to concern ourselves with that.
The market will work itself out if people would let it. But it can't do that without healthy competition.
Yes, grossly more harmful than inflated trader bids. Inflated trader bids are actually fantastic for the economy as they are the single biggest gold sink in the game and by and large are mostly the richest players throwing loads of their gold into the void. This preserves the purchasing power of people with not as much gold who aren't throwing away nearly as much even proportionately.
Yeah except it doesn't work that way.
And listen I'm not about telling people how to spend their money.
But what if that's not working anymore. There is now a direct correlation between ultra high bids and an ultra inflated market.
This is due to lack of competition and the same people, the same vendor spot, week after week, charging whatever they want and we all have to either pay it or go farm it.
It's so boring and so depressing that simple every day items are now completely unaffordable for new players.
Yeah except it works exactly that way lol. Guild trader bids are disproportionately funded by richer players. Generally the top 10% of contributors front more than 80% of the bid. If your guild has a 200k minimum, you are paying 7k a week in guild taxes. If you had 500 members and everyone did this, you would have 3.5m in taxes collected. You aren't even remotely close to a trader bid in Mourn at this point. Obviously the higher sellers pay more in taxes, but taxes alone arent enough to fund the bid. Thats when rich players pay far over market value for items in guild auctions to fund the trader bid. These rich players' gold then gets thrown into the abyss via the bid. Lower income players still are only putting in 7k and receiving all the same benefits. Their purchasing power is preserved as the massive gold sink aggressively fights inflation. The system has the added benefit of being self sustaining as the more gold is floating around, the higher the bids go which is why ESO experiences far less inflation than other MMOs.
What you are proposing would remove the single largest gold sink in the game. If a low income player gets most of their gold from a static source, it begins to lose purchasing power. The 5k they get from writs gradually is worth less and less. The trader bids are super favorable to lower income players and removing it would cause massive negative consequences.
Hah ok, hey, I've presented my case and think I have a good argument. The writing is on the wall here as is the reason it won't ever change
In the mean while I shall avoid the market like the plague which will slow down development on this end because things like Dreugh Wax are now upwards of 17k.
But hey, you guys say there's no problem. All is well.
And with that said, time for lunch.
The more the prices get thrown around, the more this is apparent as just a PC issue, because console prices are nowhere near that. So rather than burn the market down to address the issues of one platform, maybe look at the reasons why that platform is doing so poorly price wise.
Trader add-ons. It really is the major difference between PC and console. They essentially act as Auction Houses, consolidating prices. If there were any argument to work against the inclusion of an Auction house, it would be the disparity between console and PC with add-ons.
There is nothing wrong with the current system. What players have done to augment the system is the real reason for the "struggles." And I put that in quotation marks, because affordability of items is really not a thing that matters. Players who are doing the farming and selling the goods can set whatever prices they want for an item. If you don't like the prices, farm the items yourself. If you don't have time to do that, tough luck, you don't need or deserve the items. You want them.
Please understand, no one is trying to force anyone to sell anything or to sell things at any price.
I talk about prices because that gets you a visual on how bad the problems are.
In several posts I have said my intention is to do two things:
1) Increase competition in all locations by reasonably pricing rent access to Kiosk (thereby also eliminating the bid and anything tied to it)
2) Increase competition in all locations by allowing for more vendors per local. Anywhere.
This is my argument and it has never changed.
Although yes, we discussed how expensive certain items are as well as my own experience running a trade guild for 6 months but that is par for the course.Edited by Nagastani on April 5, 2021 2:52PM0 -
robertthebard✭✭✭✭✭
The more the prices get thrown around, the more this is apparent as just a PC issue, because console prices are nowhere near that. So rather than burn the market down to address the issues of one platform, maybe look at the reasons why that platform is doing so poorly price wise.
Trader add-ons. It really is the major difference between PC and console. They essentially act as Auction Houses, consolidating prices. If there were any argument to work against the inclusion of an Auction house, it would be the disparity between console and PC with add-ons.
There is nothing wrong with the current system. What players have done to augment the system is the real reason for the "struggles." And I put that in quotation marks, because affordability of items is really not a thing that matters. Players who are doing the farming and selling the goods can set whatever prices they want for an item. If you don't like the prices, farm the items yourself. If you don't have time to do that, tough luck, you don't need or deserve the items. You want them.
Another idea might be to put in a fix, if anything's broken, before it becomes a problem, instead of waiting for the dam to burst to patch a hole?0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ForzaRammer wrote: »Unlike people who claim it is just 'supply and demand shift', I was right all along
I understand zos want to sell crown houses and stuff.
Here is my original solution, lower all gold gain.
Remove treasure in antique, remove daily quest gold.
Half the pvp campaign reward, half the trial plunder.
And here was another person's suggestion.
Remove transmute crystal for reconstruction, change it to gold.
Its too late for all that. ZOS isn't going to do anything of the sort anyways.
You want to fix it? I can tell you how, but first we need to start with the problem.
The problem is the Guilds are too big to fail and can charge whatever they want... and they sometimes do. And by this time in the game's lifespan we have our major trade guilds who are the players in the economy and they have no real competition. That's the problem.
The solution is to go back and rework how Kiosk Vendors are setup. Because the price to 'rent' a weekly vendor is out of sight and new Trade Guilds can't compete for space, thus only the big really profitable guilds can only compete amongst themselves.
We need more competition, the vendors should be reworked to abolish a weekly bid and set this up to encourage growth of new Trade Guilds with new ideas who don't need to bring in billions of gold every week in order to compete.
Until this changes 'they' are in charge and will continue to be and there is nothing anyone can do about it except farm your own mats.
Trading works like anything else in the game. The more time you put in the better the results. Players doing trials don't jump right into hard mode no death speed runs on vet. They join a progression guild and learn what is expected of them. Same exact thing with trading. The very top trading guilds often have room for new members because not everybody is able to trade at a level that makes being in a top tier trade guild worth while. Good news is there are more than 200 vendor spots in the game and many of those are taken by guilds that have no requirements to join. It is a myth that you can't make a decent amount of gold at these traders. I am on PC though so Tamriel Trade Centre helps some with the out of the way traders getting traffic.
I would like to see all the traders that are in a location alone get one more trader added to give more incentive to visit those places. If we put another trader in the thieves dens and beside wayshrines that have nearby traders that I think would help a lot.
A new trade guild is going to struggle just like any other specialty guild will struggle. For many players in those top tier guilds that is their end game. They send most their time in game concentrating on selling. Social guilds can and do get traders so I know if a new trade guild is persistent they can get a spot most weeks.
The big trade guilds have to compete with every other guild out there that has a trader. They have the advantage of being in a high traffic area but that doesn't mean they are not competing with the little guys. Outside of the high traffic areas it is a good idea to list most items a bit below what they are selling for in the high traffic spots but rare items will sell for same price whatever the location.
I hear what you're saying but it seems like it really doesn't.
No Trade Guild of any kind gets a Vendor unless they can compete on the weekly bid, which even for those little outlaw holes in the wall is outrageously priced and fiercely fought over. No Kiosk equals no Trade Guild in the long run and looks bad for them not to have one. Big Guilds are fine, hey I'm not against anyone making money. However, they have the capital, the resources, the loyalties of folks so they can make the money to buy the bid, which even for them has become insanely expensive.
See what I'm saying? The weekly bidding mechanic is terrible for everyone. And a new Guild, unless it's being financed by one of the big Guilds, which they have no real reason to expand, cannot buy a Kiosk and thus they cannot grow naturally. ESO economy is like a nation where the big banks are in charge and they have money, they are powerful, but the system is dying because there is no room for new growth outside of them, no room for real competition and thus your prices on everything are out of sight.
Comes as no surprise to me.
The bidding mechanic is easily largest gold sink and fierce competition ensures as much gold gets flushed down the toilet as possible each week. Trader bids easily flush hundreds of millions of gold out of the economy every week. Getting rid of it would lead to crazy hyoerinflation
It makes no sense for a new or small trade guild to get a premium spot. Those spots are considered premium only because people know the guilds there have had dedicated teams working for years building a competitive guild store. If those locations were suddenly filled with new guilds with far below average stores then people wouldn't go there to shop anyway.
New guilds start at smaller locations and grow from there. Getting a new guild off the ground is going to require a capital investment and a lot of dedication.
People think that large trade guilds only stay afloat because they're too big to fail which is completely wrong. They have a team of people putting in hours of work every week to raise money for the bid because taxes alone aren't even close to enough to afford the bid. They organize events, raffles, auctions, etc every single week and have done so for many years.
Who are you or I to decide that?
And what is a premium spot? That could all change with a new system and that is the idea here.
We actually know what happens when you suddenly remove longstanding guilds from their spot and replace them with practically empty guilds on PC/NA. When Elsweyr launched, someone outbid the Rawlkha guilds for all their trader spots. The guilds were practically empty, so nobody went there for a week or so until the regular Rawlkha guilds were back.
Meanwhile, several of those guilds got the new Rimmen traders, and did fine for a week. Why? Because Rimmen, being the capital of a brand new zone, was hopping with players.
That's what makes a "premium spot." It's busy. It's conveniently located by a wayshrine. There's stuff for players to do there, like picking up your Undaunted Pledges, doing your crafting writs,, or waiting for a PUG trial. That's why the capital cities in the base game and Chapters, Belkarth, and Rawlkha are "premium" locations, while places like Windhelm (my first trading guild spot) are distinctly second or third tier. Unless your "new system" seriously beefs up the amenities in Windhelm or Greenshade, it's never going to be a great spot. Decent, but not great.
Now, you can debate me on what makes a "premium" trader spot, but I'd love to hear your counterexamples or how you plan to make other trader locations "premium."
PC/EU has even better examples of what happens when the major trader guilds don't get spots. When they had their multibid glitches, all the guild traders were for sale for 10k, since no bids went through. That, ah, actually wasn't helpful for many players because those guild typically didn't have anywhere near the volume of goods and traders as the guilds who normally held those spots. Finding the regular volume and quality of goods for sale got a lot harder, and smaller guilds didn't manage to leverage their opportunity into more than a week or two of increased sales. Just sticking a random trading guild into a "premium spot" for 10k does NOT make them able to sustain the success that the regular trading guilds in that spot do. That's down to the Officer team and the traders that guild attracts - "premium spot" guilds work to sustain their success, while smaller guilds suddenly catapulted into the limelight by opportunity don't often have the structure to make a sustained go at it.
Console, likewise, used to have issues prior to multibidding with ghost guilds that would win spots with a sister guild's money, then hold the spot for ransom to a guild that needed a spot. In the meantime, there wasn't much for sale in the ghost guild, so that's a guild trader made useless for most players until it was sold.
And yes, ZOS has a vested interest in keeping the Guild Trader Bid because it's a massive gold sink. For context, the losing bid from one of those rawlkha traders I mentioned was $22.5 million. That gives a tiny glimpse into the amount of gold ZOS is sucking out of the economy every week from the Guild Trader Bid. (The OP complained about Crafting Writs giving too much gold? It would take over 33,000 writs to generate enough gold to cover that bid for one week, not counting the 4.5% ZOS takes as a gold sink from every sale that guild makes.)2 -
Nagastani✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Unlike people who claim it is just 'supply and demand shift', I was right all along
I understand zos want to sell crown houses and stuff.
Here is my original solution, lower all gold gain.
Remove treasure in antique, remove daily quest gold.
Half the pvp campaign reward, half the trial plunder.
And here was another person's suggestion.
Remove transmute crystal for reconstruction, change it to gold.
Its too late for all that. ZOS isn't going to do anything of the sort anyways.
You want to fix it? I can tell you how, but first we need to start with the problem.
The problem is the Guilds are too big to fail and can charge whatever they want... and they sometimes do. And by this time in the game's lifespan we have our major trade guilds who are the players in the economy and they have no real competition. That's the problem.
The solution is to go back and rework how Kiosk Vendors are setup. Because the price to 'rent' a weekly vendor is out of sight and new Trade Guilds can't compete for space, thus only the big really profitable guilds can only compete amongst themselves.
We need more competition, the vendors should be reworked to abolish a weekly bid and set this up to encourage growth of new Trade Guilds with new ideas who don't need to bring in billions of gold every week in order to compete.
Until this changes 'they' are in charge and will continue to be and there is nothing anyone can do about it except farm your own mats.
Trading works like anything else in the game. The more time you put in the better the results. Players doing trials don't jump right into hard mode no death speed runs on vet. They join a progression guild and learn what is expected of them. Same exact thing with trading. The very top trading guilds often have room for new members because not everybody is able to trade at a level that makes being in a top tier trade guild worth while. Good news is there are more than 200 vendor spots in the game and many of those are taken by guilds that have no requirements to join. It is a myth that you can't make a decent amount of gold at these traders. I am on PC though so Tamriel Trade Centre helps some with the out of the way traders getting traffic.
I would like to see all the traders that are in a location alone get one more trader added to give more incentive to visit those places. If we put another trader in the thieves dens and beside wayshrines that have nearby traders that I think would help a lot.
A new trade guild is going to struggle just like any other specialty guild will struggle. For many players in those top tier guilds that is their end game. They send most their time in game concentrating on selling. Social guilds can and do get traders so I know if a new trade guild is persistent they can get a spot most weeks.
The big trade guilds have to compete with every other guild out there that has a trader. They have the advantage of being in a high traffic area but that doesn't mean they are not competing with the little guys. Outside of the high traffic areas it is a good idea to list most items a bit below what they are selling for in the high traffic spots but rare items will sell for same price whatever the location.
I hear what you're saying but it seems like it really doesn't.
No Trade Guild of any kind gets a Vendor unless they can compete on the weekly bid, which even for those little outlaw holes in the wall is outrageously priced and fiercely fought over. No Kiosk equals no Trade Guild in the long run and looks bad for them not to have one. Big Guilds are fine, hey I'm not against anyone making money. However, they have the capital, the resources, the loyalties of folks so they can make the money to buy the bid, which even for them has become insanely expensive.
See what I'm saying? The weekly bidding mechanic is terrible for everyone. And a new Guild, unless it's being financed by one of the big Guilds, which they have no real reason to expand, cannot buy a Kiosk and thus they cannot grow naturally. ESO economy is like a nation where the big banks are in charge and they have money, they are powerful, but the system is dying because there is no room for new growth outside of them, no room for real competition and thus your prices on everything are out of sight.
Comes as no surprise to me.
The bidding mechanic is easily largest gold sink and fierce competition ensures as much gold gets flushed down the toilet as possible each week. Trader bids easily flush hundreds of millions of gold out of the economy every week. Getting rid of it would lead to crazy hyoerinflation
It makes no sense for a new or small trade guild to get a premium spot. Those spots are considered premium only because people know the guilds there have had dedicated teams working for years building a competitive guild store. If those locations were suddenly filled with new guilds with far below average stores then people wouldn't go there to shop anyway.
New guilds start at smaller locations and grow from there. Getting a new guild off the ground is going to require a capital investment and a lot of dedication.
People think that large trade guilds only stay afloat because they're too big to fail which is completely wrong. They have a team of people putting in hours of work every week to raise money for the bid because taxes alone aren't even close to enough to afford the bid. They organize events, raffles, auctions, etc every single week and have done so for many years.
Who are you or I to decide that?
And what is a premium spot? That could all change with a new system and that is the idea here.
We actually know what happens when you suddenly remove longstanding guilds from their spot and replace them with practically empty guilds on PC/NA. When Elsweyr launched, someone outbid the Rawlkha guilds for all their trader spots. The guilds were practically empty, so nobody went there for a week or so until the regular Rawlkha guilds were back.
Meanwhile, several of those guilds got the new Rimmen traders, and did fine for a week. Why? Because Rimmen, being the capital of a brand new zone, was hopping with players.
That's what makes a "premium spot." It's busy. It's conveniently located by a wayshrine. There's stuff for players to do there, like picking up your Undaunted Pledges, doing your crafting writs,, or waiting for a PUG trial. That's why the capital cities in the base game and Chapters, Belkarth, and Rawlkha are "premium" locations, while places like Windhelm (my first trading guild spot) are distinctly second or third tier. Unless your "new system" seriously beefs up the amenities in Windhelm or Greenshade, it's never going to be a great spot. Decent, but not great.
Now, you can debate me on what makes a "premium" trader spot, but I'd love to hear your counterexamples or how you plan to make other trader locations "premium."
PC/EU has even better examples of what happens when the major trader guilds don't get spots. When they had their multibid glitches, all the guild traders were for sale for 10k, since no bids went through. That, ah, actually wasn't helpful for many players because those guild typically didn't have anywhere near the volume of goods and traders as the guilds who normally held those spots. Finding the regular volume and quality of goods for sale got a lot harder, and smaller guilds didn't manage to leverage their opportunity into more than a week or two of increased sales. Just sticking a random trading guild into a "premium spot" for 10k does NOT make them able to sustain the success that the regular trading guilds in that spot do. That's down to the Officer team and the traders that guild attracts - "premium spot" guilds work to sustain their success, while smaller guilds suddenly catapulted into the limelight by opportunity don't often have the structure to make a sustained go at it.
Console, likewise, used to have issues prior to multibidding with ghost guilds that would win spots with a sister guild's money, then hold the spot for ransom to a guild that needed a spot. In the meantime, there wasn't much for sale in the ghost guild, so that's a guild trader made useless for most players until it was sold.
And yes, ZOS has a vested interest in keeping the Guild Trader Bid because it's a massive gold sink. For context, the losing bid from one of those rawlkha traders I mentioned was $22.5 million. That gives a tiny glimpse into the amount of gold ZOS is sucking out of the economy every week from the Guild Trader Bid. (The OP complained about Crafting Writs giving too much gold? It would take over 33,000 writs to generate enough gold to cover that bid for one week, not counting the 4.5% ZOS takes as a gold sink from every sale that guild makes.)
Fine.
Except please remember... we're not actually removing any Guilds.
We're doing two things:
a) Reduce the rent so other Guilds can compete alongside them thus eliminating the bid
and
b) Allow for other Vendors to participate in the economy at all locations, paying a variable rent fee based on size of the guild. Not to exceed 500k.
This would apply to anywhere in the game.Edited by Nagastani on April 5, 2021 2:57PM0 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Unlike people who claim it is just 'supply and demand shift', I was right all along
I understand zos want to sell crown houses and stuff.
Here is my original solution, lower all gold gain.
Remove treasure in antique, remove daily quest gold.
Half the pvp campaign reward, half the trial plunder.
And here was another person's suggestion.
Remove transmute crystal for reconstruction, change it to gold.
Its too late for all that. ZOS isn't going to do anything of the sort anyways.
You want to fix it? I can tell you how, but first we need to start with the problem.
The problem is the Guilds are too big to fail and can charge whatever they want... and they sometimes do. And by this time in the game's lifespan we have our major trade guilds who are the players in the economy and they have no real competition. That's the problem.
The solution is to go back and rework how Kiosk Vendors are setup. Because the price to 'rent' a weekly vendor is out of sight and new Trade Guilds can't compete for space, thus only the big really profitable guilds can only compete amongst themselves.
We need more competition, the vendors should be reworked to abolish a weekly bid and set this up to encourage growth of new Trade Guilds with new ideas who don't need to bring in billions of gold every week in order to compete.
Until this changes 'they' are in charge and will continue to be and there is nothing anyone can do about it except farm your own mats.
Trading works like anything else in the game. The more time you put in the better the results. Players doing trials don't jump right into hard mode no death speed runs on vet. They join a progression guild and learn what is expected of them. Same exact thing with trading. The very top trading guilds often have room for new members because not everybody is able to trade at a level that makes being in a top tier trade guild worth while. Good news is there are more than 200 vendor spots in the game and many of those are taken by guilds that have no requirements to join. It is a myth that you can't make a decent amount of gold at these traders. I am on PC though so Tamriel Trade Centre helps some with the out of the way traders getting traffic.
I would like to see all the traders that are in a location alone get one more trader added to give more incentive to visit those places. If we put another trader in the thieves dens and beside wayshrines that have nearby traders that I think would help a lot.
A new trade guild is going to struggle just like any other specialty guild will struggle. For many players in those top tier guilds that is their end game. They send most their time in game concentrating on selling. Social guilds can and do get traders so I know if a new trade guild is persistent they can get a spot most weeks.
The big trade guilds have to compete with every other guild out there that has a trader. They have the advantage of being in a high traffic area but that doesn't mean they are not competing with the little guys. Outside of the high traffic areas it is a good idea to list most items a bit below what they are selling for in the high traffic spots but rare items will sell for same price whatever the location.
I hear what you're saying but it seems like it really doesn't.
No Trade Guild of any kind gets a Vendor unless they can compete on the weekly bid, which even for those little outlaw holes in the wall is outrageously priced and fiercely fought over. No Kiosk equals no Trade Guild in the long run and looks bad for them not to have one. Big Guilds are fine, hey I'm not against anyone making money. However, they have the capital, the resources, the loyalties of folks so they can make the money to buy the bid, which even for them has become insanely expensive.
See what I'm saying? The weekly bidding mechanic is terrible for everyone. And a new Guild, unless it's being financed by one of the big Guilds, which they have no real reason to expand, cannot buy a Kiosk and thus they cannot grow naturally. ESO economy is like a nation where the big banks are in charge and they have money, they are powerful, but the system is dying because there is no room for new growth outside of them, no room for real competition and thus your prices on everything are out of sight.
Comes as no surprise to me.
The bidding mechanic is easily largest gold sink and fierce competition ensures as much gold gets flushed down the toilet as possible each week. Trader bids easily flush hundreds of millions of gold out of the economy every week. Getting rid of it would lead to crazy hyoerinflation
It makes no sense for a new or small trade guild to get a premium spot. Those spots are considered premium only because people know the guilds there have had dedicated teams working for years building a competitive guild store. If those locations were suddenly filled with new guilds with far below average stores then people wouldn't go there to shop anyway.
New guilds start at smaller locations and grow from there. Getting a new guild off the ground is going to require a capital investment and a lot of dedication.
People think that large trade guilds only stay afloat because they're too big to fail which is completely wrong. They have a team of people putting in hours of work every week to raise money for the bid because taxes alone aren't even close to enough to afford the bid. They organize events, raffles, auctions, etc every single week and have done so for many years.
Who are you or I to decide that?
And what is a premium spot? That could all change with a new system and that is the idea here.
We actually know what happens when you suddenly remove longstanding guilds from their spot and replace them with practically empty guilds on PC/NA. When Elsweyr launched, someone outbid the Rawlkha guilds for all their trader spots. The guilds were practically empty, so nobody went there for a week or so until the regular Rawlkha guilds were back.
Meanwhile, several of those guilds got the new Rimmen traders, and did fine for a week. Why? Because Rimmen, being the capital of a brand new zone, was hopping with players.
That's what makes a "premium spot." It's busy. It's conveniently located by a wayshrine. There's stuff for players to do there, like picking up your Undaunted Pledges, doing your crafting writs,, or waiting for a PUG trial. That's why the capital cities in the base game and Chapters, Belkarth, and Rawlkha are "premium" locations, while places like Windhelm (my first trading guild spot) are distinctly second or third tier. Unless your "new system" seriously beefs up the amenities in Windhelm or Greenshade, it's never going to be a great spot. Decent, but not great.
Now, you can debate me on what makes a "premium" trader spot, but I'd love to hear your counterexamples or how you plan to make other trader locations "premium."
PC/EU has even better examples of what happens when the major trader guilds don't get spots. When they had their multibid glitches, all the guild traders were for sale for 10k, since no bids went through. That, ah, actually wasn't helpful for many players because those guild typically didn't have anywhere near the volume of goods and traders as the guilds who normally held those spots. Finding the regular volume and quality of goods for sale got a lot harder, and smaller guilds didn't manage to leverage their opportunity into more than a week or two of increased sales. Just sticking a random trading guild into a "premium spot" for 10k does NOT make them able to sustain the success that the regular trading guilds in that spot do. That's down to the Officer team and the traders that guild attracts - "premium spot" guilds work to sustain their success, while smaller guilds suddenly catapulted into the limelight by opportunity don't often have the structure to make a sustained go at it.
Console, likewise, used to have issues prior to multibidding with ghost guilds that would win spots with a sister guild's money, then hold the spot for ransom to a guild that needed a spot. In the meantime, there wasn't much for sale in the ghost guild, so that's a guild trader made useless for most players until it was sold.
And yes, ZOS has a vested interest in keeping the Guild Trader Bid because it's a massive gold sink. For context, the losing bid from one of those rawlkha traders I mentioned was $22.5 million. That gives a tiny glimpse into the amount of gold ZOS is sucking out of the economy every week from the Guild Trader Bid. (The OP complained about Crafting Writs giving too much gold? It would take over 33,000 writs to generate enough gold to cover that bid for one week, not counting the 4.5% ZOS takes as a gold sink from every sale that guild makes.)
Fine.
Except please remember... we're not actually removing any Guilds.
We're doing two things. a) Reduce the rent so other Guilds can compete alongside them thus eliminating the bid and b) allow for other Vendors to participate in the economy at all locations.
Anywhere, I don't care.
So in your reduced rate utopia, how do two guilds competing for the same location get a spot?1 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well, I don't really have a horse in this race (except that I will be MAJORLY PISSED if my sources of gold - like writ dailies - get whacked as has been suggested by @ForzaRammer) because I don't do trading guilds at all, and only rarely buy from traders. I farm, and cover my own needs.
Three years ago when I started (new player @Nagastani) I had a friend who gave me 5k gold so I wasn't completely broke to begin with. However, as soon as I realized what the guild trader setup was about, I started farming whenever I was outside of Vivec - anywhere and everywhere. 5k gold didn't go far even back then, and once having had to buy cornflower, I was close to broke again.
So, farming saved my hide (pun intended) - because I don't now nor have I ever had any interest in the trader system in this game. My only interest in these threads is hoping I DO NOT see people shut down my only gold supply.2 -
Eedat✭✭✭✭✭robertthebard wrote: »robertthebard wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Unlike people who claim it is just 'supply and demand shift', I was right all along
I understand zos want to sell crown houses and stuff.
Here is my original solution, lower all gold gain.
Remove treasure in antique, remove daily quest gold.
Half the pvp campaign reward, half the trial plunder.
And here was another person's suggestion.
Remove transmute crystal for reconstruction, change it to gold.
Its too late for all that. ZOS isn't going to do anything of the sort anyways.
You want to fix it? I can tell you how, but first we need to start with the problem.
The problem is the Guilds are too big to fail and can charge whatever they want... and they sometimes do. And by this time in the game's lifespan we have our major trade guilds who are the players in the economy and they have no real competition. That's the problem.
The solution is to go back and rework how Kiosk Vendors are setup. Because the price to 'rent' a weekly vendor is out of sight and new Trade Guilds can't compete for space, thus only the big really profitable guilds can only compete amongst themselves.
We need more competition, the vendors should be reworked to abolish a weekly bid and set this up to encourage growth of new Trade Guilds with new ideas who don't need to bring in billions of gold every week in order to compete.
Until this changes 'they' are in charge and will continue to be and there is nothing anyone can do about it except farm your own mats.
Trading works like anything else in the game. The more time you put in the better the results. Players doing trials don't jump right into hard mode no death speed runs on vet. They join a progression guild and learn what is expected of them. Same exact thing with trading. The very top trading guilds often have room for new members because not everybody is able to trade at a level that makes being in a top tier trade guild worth while. Good news is there are more than 200 vendor spots in the game and many of those are taken by guilds that have no requirements to join. It is a myth that you can't make a decent amount of gold at these traders. I am on PC though so Tamriel Trade Centre helps some with the out of the way traders getting traffic.
I would like to see all the traders that are in a location alone get one more trader added to give more incentive to visit those places. If we put another trader in the thieves dens and beside wayshrines that have nearby traders that I think would help a lot.
A new trade guild is going to struggle just like any other specialty guild will struggle. For many players in those top tier guilds that is their end game. They send most their time in game concentrating on selling. Social guilds can and do get traders so I know if a new trade guild is persistent they can get a spot most weeks.
The big trade guilds have to compete with every other guild out there that has a trader. They have the advantage of being in a high traffic area but that doesn't mean they are not competing with the little guys. Outside of the high traffic areas it is a good idea to list most items a bit below what they are selling for in the high traffic spots but rare items will sell for same price whatever the location.
I hear what you're saying but it seems like it really doesn't.
No Trade Guild of any kind gets a Vendor unless they can compete on the weekly bid, which even for those little outlaw holes in the wall is outrageously priced and fiercely fought over. No Kiosk equals no Trade Guild in the long run and looks bad for them not to have one. Big Guilds are fine, hey I'm not against anyone making money. However, they have the capital, the resources, the loyalties of folks so they can make the money to buy the bid, which even for them has become insanely expensive.
See what I'm saying? The weekly bidding mechanic is terrible for everyone. And a new Guild, unless it's being financed by one of the big Guilds, which they have no real reason to expand, cannot buy a Kiosk and thus they cannot grow naturally. ESO economy is like a nation where the big banks are in charge and they have money, they are powerful, but the system is dying because there is no room for new growth outside of them, no room for real competition and thus your prices on everything are out of sight.
Comes as no surprise to me.
The bidding mechanic is easily largest gold sink and fierce competition ensures as much gold gets flushed down the toilet as possible each week. Trader bids easily flush hundreds of millions of gold out of the economy every week. Getting rid of it would lead to crazy hyoerinflation
It makes no sense for a new or small trade guild to get a premium spot. Those spots are considered premium only because people know the guilds there have had dedicated teams working for years building a competitive guild store. If those locations were suddenly filled with new guilds with far below average stores then people wouldn't go there to shop anyway.
New guilds start at smaller locations and grow from there. Getting a new guild off the ground is going to require a capital investment and a lot of dedication.
People think that large trade guilds only stay afloat because they're too big to fail which is completely wrong. They have a team of people putting in hours of work every week to raise money for the bid because taxes alone aren't even close to enough to afford the bid. They organize events, raffles, auctions, etc every single week and have done so for many years.
Who are you or I to decide that?
And what is a premium spot? That could all change with a new system and that is the idea here.
Then get a trader at a reasonable price in a more reasonable location? If you dont care about a premium spot than this is a non issue. If you want a premium spot then you have to put forth the effort and make good decisions to get there. You aren't going to get what others have put literal years of effort into maintaining overnight. The current bid system is actually fantastic at countering inflation and is self regulating. The more gold that is flowing around the higher the bids go and the more gold that gets pumped out. Flat fees that anyone can afford is an awful system in comparison that will cause long term problems
Reasonable according to whom? None of it is reasonable anywhere. Perhaps for you, perhaps for some Guilds it might considered reasonable. For a new Trade Guild starting out... none of this is reasonable, not anywhere in the game currently.
The flat fees are for rent. Which would actually be variable depending on the size of the guild, not to exceed 500k.
And you say it would be awful.
How awful would it be compared to what is now? Indeed it would be awful for some because over the long term you're going to have to lower prices to sell and would ensure every market has enough competition instead of uhh 4 or 5 of the same Guilds doing the same thing every week. In 'their' same premium location.
You seem to have this backwards. Those guilds are what make the spot premium, not the other way around lol. The guilds are the premium. If you replaced every trader in Mourn with random new guilds with bad stores then it wouldn't be a premium spot and people wouldn't go there to shop like they do now. If you want your guild to succeed, you need to build up a pool of good traders who will fill the trader with desirable items other players want. This takes time and years of dedication which is what others have done and continue to do. You aren't going to get what others have put years of effort into doing just because you want it. You have to put that effort in too.
I'm going to have to disagree with this assessment. A spot isn't valuable because of the guild, it's valuable because of the traffic through it. A high traffic area, such as someone's earlier example of a downtown location, will be more valuable than a low traffic area, the edge of town, from the same example. How desirable a location is is how we end up with "high rent districts"...
Except there isn't this concept of traffic in ESO. You can teleport anywhere on the continent in seconds. You dont need to pass through a specific area or take a specific route through a major city to get places. There needs to be a reason to get people to go there. People go shopping in Mourn because they know the traders are stacked
Then no spots should be all that valuable.
No. I just said the traders bring in the value. Thats why the bids of various locations change over time. On PC-NA, Rawl'kha used to be the most valuable spot. But there was a lot of fighting to get one of the 5 traders there to the point where a few of the big guilds left Rawl to find more stable traders. Then the value of a Rawl trader fell drastically because a few of the best stores left. A couple of them went to Mourn and a couple went to Vivec. Not coincidentally, the value of traders at these locations starting going up as soon as the big traders moved in. Now Rawl is significantly cheaper while Mourn and Vivec are more expensive. Vivec actually used to be pretty cheap and now it's tied with Mourn as the most expensive. But hey, must be purely coincidence lol.3 -
robertthebard✭✭✭✭✭robertthebard wrote: »robertthebard wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Unlike people who claim it is just 'supply and demand shift', I was right all along
I understand zos want to sell crown houses and stuff.
Here is my original solution, lower all gold gain.
Remove treasure in antique, remove daily quest gold.
Half the pvp campaign reward, half the trial plunder.
And here was another person's suggestion.
Remove transmute crystal for reconstruction, change it to gold.
Its too late for all that. ZOS isn't going to do anything of the sort anyways.
You want to fix it? I can tell you how, but first we need to start with the problem.
The problem is the Guilds are too big to fail and can charge whatever they want... and they sometimes do. And by this time in the game's lifespan we have our major trade guilds who are the players in the economy and they have no real competition. That's the problem.
The solution is to go back and rework how Kiosk Vendors are setup. Because the price to 'rent' a weekly vendor is out of sight and new Trade Guilds can't compete for space, thus only the big really profitable guilds can only compete amongst themselves.
We need more competition, the vendors should be reworked to abolish a weekly bid and set this up to encourage growth of new Trade Guilds with new ideas who don't need to bring in billions of gold every week in order to compete.
Until this changes 'they' are in charge and will continue to be and there is nothing anyone can do about it except farm your own mats.
Trading works like anything else in the game. The more time you put in the better the results. Players doing trials don't jump right into hard mode no death speed runs on vet. They join a progression guild and learn what is expected of them. Same exact thing with trading. The very top trading guilds often have room for new members because not everybody is able to trade at a level that makes being in a top tier trade guild worth while. Good news is there are more than 200 vendor spots in the game and many of those are taken by guilds that have no requirements to join. It is a myth that you can't make a decent amount of gold at these traders. I am on PC though so Tamriel Trade Centre helps some with the out of the way traders getting traffic.
I would like to see all the traders that are in a location alone get one more trader added to give more incentive to visit those places. If we put another trader in the thieves dens and beside wayshrines that have nearby traders that I think would help a lot.
A new trade guild is going to struggle just like any other specialty guild will struggle. For many players in those top tier guilds that is their end game. They send most their time in game concentrating on selling. Social guilds can and do get traders so I know if a new trade guild is persistent they can get a spot most weeks.
The big trade guilds have to compete with every other guild out there that has a trader. They have the advantage of being in a high traffic area but that doesn't mean they are not competing with the little guys. Outside of the high traffic areas it is a good idea to list most items a bit below what they are selling for in the high traffic spots but rare items will sell for same price whatever the location.
I hear what you're saying but it seems like it really doesn't.
No Trade Guild of any kind gets a Vendor unless they can compete on the weekly bid, which even for those little outlaw holes in the wall is outrageously priced and fiercely fought over. No Kiosk equals no Trade Guild in the long run and looks bad for them not to have one. Big Guilds are fine, hey I'm not against anyone making money. However, they have the capital, the resources, the loyalties of folks so they can make the money to buy the bid, which even for them has become insanely expensive.
See what I'm saying? The weekly bidding mechanic is terrible for everyone. And a new Guild, unless it's being financed by one of the big Guilds, which they have no real reason to expand, cannot buy a Kiosk and thus they cannot grow naturally. ESO economy is like a nation where the big banks are in charge and they have money, they are powerful, but the system is dying because there is no room for new growth outside of them, no room for real competition and thus your prices on everything are out of sight.
Comes as no surprise to me.
The bidding mechanic is easily largest gold sink and fierce competition ensures as much gold gets flushed down the toilet as possible each week. Trader bids easily flush hundreds of millions of gold out of the economy every week. Getting rid of it would lead to crazy hyoerinflation
It makes no sense for a new or small trade guild to get a premium spot. Those spots are considered premium only because people know the guilds there have had dedicated teams working for years building a competitive guild store. If those locations were suddenly filled with new guilds with far below average stores then people wouldn't go there to shop anyway.
New guilds start at smaller locations and grow from there. Getting a new guild off the ground is going to require a capital investment and a lot of dedication.
People think that large trade guilds only stay afloat because they're too big to fail which is completely wrong. They have a team of people putting in hours of work every week to raise money for the bid because taxes alone aren't even close to enough to afford the bid. They organize events, raffles, auctions, etc every single week and have done so for many years.
Who are you or I to decide that?
And what is a premium spot? That could all change with a new system and that is the idea here.
Then get a trader at a reasonable price in a more reasonable location? If you dont care about a premium spot than this is a non issue. If you want a premium spot then you have to put forth the effort and make good decisions to get there. You aren't going to get what others have put literal years of effort into maintaining overnight. The current bid system is actually fantastic at countering inflation and is self regulating. The more gold that is flowing around the higher the bids go and the more gold that gets pumped out. Flat fees that anyone can afford is an awful system in comparison that will cause long term problems
Reasonable according to whom? None of it is reasonable anywhere. Perhaps for you, perhaps for some Guilds it might considered reasonable. For a new Trade Guild starting out... none of this is reasonable, not anywhere in the game currently.
The flat fees are for rent. Which would actually be variable depending on the size of the guild, not to exceed 500k.
And you say it would be awful.
How awful would it be compared to what is now? Indeed it would be awful for some because over the long term you're going to have to lower prices to sell and would ensure every market has enough competition instead of uhh 4 or 5 of the same Guilds doing the same thing every week. In 'their' same premium location.
You seem to have this backwards. Those guilds are what make the spot premium, not the other way around lol. The guilds are the premium. If you replaced every trader in Mourn with random new guilds with bad stores then it wouldn't be a premium spot and people wouldn't go there to shop like they do now. If you want your guild to succeed, you need to build up a pool of good traders who will fill the trader with desirable items other players want. This takes time and years of dedication which is what others have done and continue to do. You aren't going to get what others have put years of effort into doing just because you want it. You have to put that effort in too.
I'm going to have to disagree with this assessment. A spot isn't valuable because of the guild, it's valuable because of the traffic through it. A high traffic area, such as someone's earlier example of a downtown location, will be more valuable than a low traffic area, the edge of town, from the same example. How desirable a location is is how we end up with "high rent districts"...
Except there isn't this concept of traffic in ESO. You can teleport anywhere on the continent in seconds. You dont need to pass through a specific area or take a specific route through a major city to get places. There needs to be a reason to get people to go there. People go shopping in Mourn because they know the traders are stacked
Then no spots should be all that valuable.
No. I just said the traders bring in the value. Thats why the bids of various locations change over time. On PC-NA, Rawl'kha used to be the most valuable spot. But there was a lot of fighting to get one of the 5 traders there to the point where a few of the big guilds left Rawl to find more stable traders. Then the value of a Rawl trader fell drastically because a few of the best stores left. A couple of them went to Mourn and a couple went to Vivec. Not coincidentally, the value of traders at these locations starting going up as soon as the big traders moved in. Now Rawl is significantly cheaper while Mourn and Vivec are more expensive. Vivec actually used to be pretty cheap and now it's tied with Mourn as the most expensive. But hey, must be purely coincidence lol.
Nice snip job, I guess? Maybe your own arguments were too much?
You: Spots are only valuable because of the guilds in them.
Also you: There is no such thing as traffic, because you can teleport anywhere. Paraphrased
Also you: Mourn is popular because all the traders are lumped together and people will go there. Also paraphrased.
Me: So Mourn is popular because lots of people will go there.
You: Snips that out because it's inconvenient to your argument?0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Unlike people who claim it is just 'supply and demand shift', I was right all along
I understand zos want to sell crown houses and stuff.
Here is my original solution, lower all gold gain.
Remove treasure in antique, remove daily quest gold.
Half the pvp campaign reward, half the trial plunder.
And here was another person's suggestion.
Remove transmute crystal for reconstruction, change it to gold.
Its too late for all that. ZOS isn't going to do anything of the sort anyways.
You want to fix it? I can tell you how, but first we need to start with the problem.
The problem is the Guilds are too big to fail and can charge whatever they want... and they sometimes do. And by this time in the game's lifespan we have our major trade guilds who are the players in the economy and they have no real competition. That's the problem.
The solution is to go back and rework how Kiosk Vendors are setup. Because the price to 'rent' a weekly vendor is out of sight and new Trade Guilds can't compete for space, thus only the big really profitable guilds can only compete amongst themselves.
We need more competition, the vendors should be reworked to abolish a weekly bid and set this up to encourage growth of new Trade Guilds with new ideas who don't need to bring in billions of gold every week in order to compete.
Until this changes 'they' are in charge and will continue to be and there is nothing anyone can do about it except farm your own mats.
Trading works like anything else in the game. The more time you put in the better the results. Players doing trials don't jump right into hard mode no death speed runs on vet. They join a progression guild and learn what is expected of them. Same exact thing with trading. The very top trading guilds often have room for new members because not everybody is able to trade at a level that makes being in a top tier trade guild worth while. Good news is there are more than 200 vendor spots in the game and many of those are taken by guilds that have no requirements to join. It is a myth that you can't make a decent amount of gold at these traders. I am on PC though so Tamriel Trade Centre helps some with the out of the way traders getting traffic.
I would like to see all the traders that are in a location alone get one more trader added to give more incentive to visit those places. If we put another trader in the thieves dens and beside wayshrines that have nearby traders that I think would help a lot.
A new trade guild is going to struggle just like any other specialty guild will struggle. For many players in those top tier guilds that is their end game. They send most their time in game concentrating on selling. Social guilds can and do get traders so I know if a new trade guild is persistent they can get a spot most weeks.
The big trade guilds have to compete with every other guild out there that has a trader. They have the advantage of being in a high traffic area but that doesn't mean they are not competing with the little guys. Outside of the high traffic areas it is a good idea to list most items a bit below what they are selling for in the high traffic spots but rare items will sell for same price whatever the location.
I hear what you're saying but it seems like it really doesn't.
No Trade Guild of any kind gets a Vendor unless they can compete on the weekly bid, which even for those little outlaw holes in the wall is outrageously priced and fiercely fought over. No Kiosk equals no Trade Guild in the long run and looks bad for them not to have one. Big Guilds are fine, hey I'm not against anyone making money. However, they have the capital, the resources, the loyalties of folks so they can make the money to buy the bid, which even for them has become insanely expensive.
See what I'm saying? The weekly bidding mechanic is terrible for everyone. And a new Guild, unless it's being financed by one of the big Guilds, which they have no real reason to expand, cannot buy a Kiosk and thus they cannot grow naturally. ESO economy is like a nation where the big banks are in charge and they have money, they are powerful, but the system is dying because there is no room for new growth outside of them, no room for real competition and thus your prices on everything are out of sight.
Comes as no surprise to me.
The bidding mechanic is easily largest gold sink and fierce competition ensures as much gold gets flushed down the toilet as possible each week. Trader bids easily flush hundreds of millions of gold out of the economy every week. Getting rid of it would lead to crazy hyoerinflation
It makes no sense for a new or small trade guild to get a premium spot. Those spots are considered premium only because people know the guilds there have had dedicated teams working for years building a competitive guild store. If those locations were suddenly filled with new guilds with far below average stores then people wouldn't go there to shop anyway.
New guilds start at smaller locations and grow from there. Getting a new guild off the ground is going to require a capital investment and a lot of dedication.
People think that large trade guilds only stay afloat because they're too big to fail which is completely wrong. They have a team of people putting in hours of work every week to raise money for the bid because taxes alone aren't even close to enough to afford the bid. They organize events, raffles, auctions, etc every single week and have done so for many years.
Who are you or I to decide that?
And what is a premium spot? That could all change with a new system and that is the idea here.
We actually know what happens when you suddenly remove longstanding guilds from their spot and replace them with practically empty guilds on PC/NA. When Elsweyr launched, someone outbid the Rawlkha guilds for all their trader spots. The guilds were practically empty, so nobody went there for a week or so until the regular Rawlkha guilds were back.
Meanwhile, several of those guilds got the new Rimmen traders, and did fine for a week. Why? Because Rimmen, being the capital of a brand new zone, was hopping with players.
That's what makes a "premium spot." It's busy. It's conveniently located by a wayshrine. There's stuff for players to do there, like picking up your Undaunted Pledges, doing your crafting writs,, or waiting for a PUG trial. That's why the capital cities in the base game and Chapters, Belkarth, and Rawlkha are "premium" locations, while places like Windhelm (my first trading guild spot) are distinctly second or third tier. Unless your "new system" seriously beefs up the amenities in Windhelm or Greenshade, it's never going to be a great spot. Decent, but not great.
Now, you can debate me on what makes a "premium" trader spot, but I'd love to hear your counterexamples or how you plan to make other trader locations "premium."
PC/EU has even better examples of what happens when the major trader guilds don't get spots. When they had their multibid glitches, all the guild traders were for sale for 10k, since no bids went through. That, ah, actually wasn't helpful for many players because those guild typically didn't have anywhere near the volume of goods and traders as the guilds who normally held those spots. Finding the regular volume and quality of goods for sale got a lot harder, and smaller guilds didn't manage to leverage their opportunity into more than a week or two of increased sales. Just sticking a random trading guild into a "premium spot" for 10k does NOT make them able to sustain the success that the regular trading guilds in that spot do. That's down to the Officer team and the traders that guild attracts - "premium spot" guilds work to sustain their success, while smaller guilds suddenly catapulted into the limelight by opportunity don't often have the structure to make a sustained go at it.
Console, likewise, used to have issues prior to multibidding with ghost guilds that would win spots with a sister guild's money, then hold the spot for ransom to a guild that needed a spot. In the meantime, there wasn't much for sale in the ghost guild, so that's a guild trader made useless for most players until it was sold.
And yes, ZOS has a vested interest in keeping the Guild Trader Bid because it's a massive gold sink. For context, the losing bid from one of those rawlkha traders I mentioned was $22.5 million. That gives a tiny glimpse into the amount of gold ZOS is sucking out of the economy every week from the Guild Trader Bid. (The OP complained about Crafting Writs giving too much gold? It would take over 33,000 writs to generate enough gold to cover that bid for one week, not counting the 4.5% ZOS takes as a gold sink from every sale that guild makes.)
Fine.
Except please remember... we're not actually removing any Guilds.
We're doing two things:
a) Reduce the rent so other Guilds can compete alongside them thus eliminating the bid
and
b) Allow for other Vendors to participate in the economy at all locations, paying a variable rent fee based on size of the guild. Not to exceed 500k.
This would apply to anywhere in the game.
So? None of that addresses anything that I said above...
A. We've seen on all servers that Trading Guilds that get "premium spots" with, ah, less-than-premium trading inventories are bad for buyers. It's harder to find the goods they need - especially on consoles which lack TTC addons. Predictable quality of guilds in high traffic locations is more important there. No offense, but most small guilds just don't attract the type of traders who keep the "premium" trader slots stocked at all times. When I last went shopping for a common item, the difference in the amount of listings between a Stormhaven guild and a Windhelm guild was pretty staggering. I had a lot more choice and better pricing in Stormhaven, and that's because "premium spots" attract traders who keep their inventory high AND reasonably priced. If we threw that Windhelm guild into Stormhaven tomorrow, their trading inventory wouldn't suddenly get any bigger or better. That's bad for me as a buyer.
B. We've seen that a small trading guild who gets access to a premium location for cheap doesn't easily grow to become a "premium" trading guild. Quite the opposite - it doesn't have the officer team or dedicated traders to fill a premium spot with items every day for weeks. It's not just "can you make the bid." It's also about "can your traders fill the store with the quantity and quality of goods players want, day in, day out, week after week." If the answer is no, or your traders want to be a little more chillaxed about trading, then you aren't doing your buyers any favors by taking a premium spot that would otherwise go to a guild who can and who want to trade on that level. Anecdotally from my time as a trading guild officer, we lost members when we were trying to push to a higher tier trading spot because they wanted a more relaxed trading environment. They didn't want to worry about keeping their slots filled, so they left, and hopefully found a trading guild that fit their needs better.
C. The Trader Bid is a massive and extremely beneficial gold sink that pulls a lot of gold out of the economy, helping to keep inflation in check. (And far in excess of the 500k you suggest, when a single losing bid was 22.5 million.) You still haven't addressed how you intend to replace that economic necessity.2 -
Inaya✭✭✭✭✭
✭Except that if you can only afford 500k for a spot you will fail miserably. You want a Walmart for the rent of a mom and pop shop. And you still haven't answered my questions regarding what you are doing to increase your 500k guild bank.Edited by Inaya on April 5, 2021 3:22PM4 -
Eedat✭✭✭✭✭robertthebard wrote: »robertthebard wrote: »robertthebard wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Unlike people who claim it is just 'supply and demand shift', I was right all along
I understand zos want to sell crown houses and stuff.
Here is my original solution, lower all gold gain.
Remove treasure in antique, remove daily quest gold.
Half the pvp campaign reward, half the trial plunder.
And here was another person's suggestion.
Remove transmute crystal for reconstruction, change it to gold.
Its too late for all that. ZOS isn't going to do anything of the sort anyways.
You want to fix it? I can tell you how, but first we need to start with the problem.
The problem is the Guilds are too big to fail and can charge whatever they want... and they sometimes do. And by this time in the game's lifespan we have our major trade guilds who are the players in the economy and they have no real competition. That's the problem.
The solution is to go back and rework how Kiosk Vendors are setup. Because the price to 'rent' a weekly vendor is out of sight and new Trade Guilds can't compete for space, thus only the big really profitable guilds can only compete amongst themselves.
We need more competition, the vendors should be reworked to abolish a weekly bid and set this up to encourage growth of new Trade Guilds with new ideas who don't need to bring in billions of gold every week in order to compete.
Until this changes 'they' are in charge and will continue to be and there is nothing anyone can do about it except farm your own mats.
Trading works like anything else in the game. The more time you put in the better the results. Players doing trials don't jump right into hard mode no death speed runs on vet. They join a progression guild and learn what is expected of them. Same exact thing with trading. The very top trading guilds often have room for new members because not everybody is able to trade at a level that makes being in a top tier trade guild worth while. Good news is there are more than 200 vendor spots in the game and many of those are taken by guilds that have no requirements to join. It is a myth that you can't make a decent amount of gold at these traders. I am on PC though so Tamriel Trade Centre helps some with the out of the way traders getting traffic.
I would like to see all the traders that are in a location alone get one more trader added to give more incentive to visit those places. If we put another trader in the thieves dens and beside wayshrines that have nearby traders that I think would help a lot.
A new trade guild is going to struggle just like any other specialty guild will struggle. For many players in those top tier guilds that is their end game. They send most their time in game concentrating on selling. Social guilds can and do get traders so I know if a new trade guild is persistent they can get a spot most weeks.
The big trade guilds have to compete with every other guild out there that has a trader. They have the advantage of being in a high traffic area but that doesn't mean they are not competing with the little guys. Outside of the high traffic areas it is a good idea to list most items a bit below what they are selling for in the high traffic spots but rare items will sell for same price whatever the location.
I hear what you're saying but it seems like it really doesn't.
No Trade Guild of any kind gets a Vendor unless they can compete on the weekly bid, which even for those little outlaw holes in the wall is outrageously priced and fiercely fought over. No Kiosk equals no Trade Guild in the long run and looks bad for them not to have one. Big Guilds are fine, hey I'm not against anyone making money. However, they have the capital, the resources, the loyalties of folks so they can make the money to buy the bid, which even for them has become insanely expensive.
See what I'm saying? The weekly bidding mechanic is terrible for everyone. And a new Guild, unless it's being financed by one of the big Guilds, which they have no real reason to expand, cannot buy a Kiosk and thus they cannot grow naturally. ESO economy is like a nation where the big banks are in charge and they have money, they are powerful, but the system is dying because there is no room for new growth outside of them, no room for real competition and thus your prices on everything are out of sight.
Comes as no surprise to me.
The bidding mechanic is easily largest gold sink and fierce competition ensures as much gold gets flushed down the toilet as possible each week. Trader bids easily flush hundreds of millions of gold out of the economy every week. Getting rid of it would lead to crazy hyoerinflation
It makes no sense for a new or small trade guild to get a premium spot. Those spots are considered premium only because people know the guilds there have had dedicated teams working for years building a competitive guild store. If those locations were suddenly filled with new guilds with far below average stores then people wouldn't go there to shop anyway.
New guilds start at smaller locations and grow from there. Getting a new guild off the ground is going to require a capital investment and a lot of dedication.
People think that large trade guilds only stay afloat because they're too big to fail which is completely wrong. They have a team of people putting in hours of work every week to raise money for the bid because taxes alone aren't even close to enough to afford the bid. They organize events, raffles, auctions, etc every single week and have done so for many years.
Who are you or I to decide that?
And what is a premium spot? That could all change with a new system and that is the idea here.
Then get a trader at a reasonable price in a more reasonable location? If you dont care about a premium spot than this is a non issue. If you want a premium spot then you have to put forth the effort and make good decisions to get there. You aren't going to get what others have put literal years of effort into maintaining overnight. The current bid system is actually fantastic at countering inflation and is self regulating. The more gold that is flowing around the higher the bids go and the more gold that gets pumped out. Flat fees that anyone can afford is an awful system in comparison that will cause long term problems
Reasonable according to whom? None of it is reasonable anywhere. Perhaps for you, perhaps for some Guilds it might considered reasonable. For a new Trade Guild starting out... none of this is reasonable, not anywhere in the game currently.
The flat fees are for rent. Which would actually be variable depending on the size of the guild, not to exceed 500k.
And you say it would be awful.
How awful would it be compared to what is now? Indeed it would be awful for some because over the long term you're going to have to lower prices to sell and would ensure every market has enough competition instead of uhh 4 or 5 of the same Guilds doing the same thing every week. In 'their' same premium location.
You seem to have this backwards. Those guilds are what make the spot premium, not the other way around lol. The guilds are the premium. If you replaced every trader in Mourn with random new guilds with bad stores then it wouldn't be a premium spot and people wouldn't go there to shop like they do now. If you want your guild to succeed, you need to build up a pool of good traders who will fill the trader with desirable items other players want. This takes time and years of dedication which is what others have done and continue to do. You aren't going to get what others have put years of effort into doing just because you want it. You have to put that effort in too.
I'm going to have to disagree with this assessment. A spot isn't valuable because of the guild, it's valuable because of the traffic through it. A high traffic area, such as someone's earlier example of a downtown location, will be more valuable than a low traffic area, the edge of town, from the same example. How desirable a location is is how we end up with "high rent districts"...
Except there isn't this concept of traffic in ESO. You can teleport anywhere on the continent in seconds. You dont need to pass through a specific area or take a specific route through a major city to get places. There needs to be a reason to get people to go there. People go shopping in Mourn because they know the traders are stacked
Then no spots should be all that valuable.
No. I just said the traders bring in the value. Thats why the bids of various locations change over time. On PC-NA, Rawl'kha used to be the most valuable spot. But there was a lot of fighting to get one of the 5 traders there to the point where a few of the big guilds left Rawl to find more stable traders. Then the value of a Rawl trader fell drastically because a few of the best stores left. A couple of them went to Mourn and a couple went to Vivec. Not coincidentally, the value of traders at these locations starting going up as soon as the big traders moved in. Now Rawl is significantly cheaper while Mourn and Vivec are more expensive. Vivec actually used to be pretty cheap and now it's tied with Mourn as the most expensive. But hey, must be purely coincidence lol.
Nice snip job, I guess? Maybe your own arguments were too much?
You: Spots are only valuable because of the guilds in them.
Also you: There is no such thing as traffic, because you can teleport anywhere. Paraphrased
Also you: Mourn is popular because all the traders are lumped together and people will go there. Also paraphrased.
Me: So Mourn is popular because lots of people will go there.
You: Snips that out because it's inconvenient to your argument?
Lmao are you ok? Let me break this down for you. People go to Mourn to shop BECAUSE OF the traders that are there. If the those traders were not there, there would not be the traffic it currently has there. Once enough good traders bring in traffic, other guild want in on their piece of the pie which starts the competition. This drives prices up. This continues until only the guilds who generate the most revenue can remain there. The guilds that can generate the most revenue are going to be the ones who generate the most sales. You generate the most sales by having the most competitive guild stores.
This is made crystal clear by having some knowledge of what happens when traders leave a city. I was in a Rawl guild when the exodus of Rawl happened. I was also friends with a GM of a more casual trade guild in Vivec that got pushed out once a couple big traders started bringing in more traffic which lead to a drastic increase in price. It's not a coincidence that their trade bid remained stable for a long time then suddenly started rapidly climbing to the roof once a big trader or two made their way in2 -
Obsidian3✭✭✭✭More gold sinks? With the millions I've poured into guilds for trader bids. This game already has the biggest gold sink in any MMO I have ever played. The trader bids are no joke. I guess because those of us who spend hours a week farming, doing writs etc shield most players from the cost, these yahoo's are ignorant to the fact Guild bids are massively expensive.
1 -
robertthebard✭✭✭✭✭robertthebard wrote: »robertthebard wrote: »robertthebard wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Unlike people who claim it is just 'supply and demand shift', I was right all along
I understand zos want to sell crown houses and stuff.
Here is my original solution, lower all gold gain.
Remove treasure in antique, remove daily quest gold.
Half the pvp campaign reward, half the trial plunder.
And here was another person's suggestion.
Remove transmute crystal for reconstruction, change it to gold.
Its too late for all that. ZOS isn't going to do anything of the sort anyways.
You want to fix it? I can tell you how, but first we need to start with the problem.
The problem is the Guilds are too big to fail and can charge whatever they want... and they sometimes do. And by this time in the game's lifespan we have our major trade guilds who are the players in the economy and they have no real competition. That's the problem.
The solution is to go back and rework how Kiosk Vendors are setup. Because the price to 'rent' a weekly vendor is out of sight and new Trade Guilds can't compete for space, thus only the big really profitable guilds can only compete amongst themselves.
We need more competition, the vendors should be reworked to abolish a weekly bid and set this up to encourage growth of new Trade Guilds with new ideas who don't need to bring in billions of gold every week in order to compete.
Until this changes 'they' are in charge and will continue to be and there is nothing anyone can do about it except farm your own mats.
Trading works like anything else in the game. The more time you put in the better the results. Players doing trials don't jump right into hard mode no death speed runs on vet. They join a progression guild and learn what is expected of them. Same exact thing with trading. The very top trading guilds often have room for new members because not everybody is able to trade at a level that makes being in a top tier trade guild worth while. Good news is there are more than 200 vendor spots in the game and many of those are taken by guilds that have no requirements to join. It is a myth that you can't make a decent amount of gold at these traders. I am on PC though so Tamriel Trade Centre helps some with the out of the way traders getting traffic.
I would like to see all the traders that are in a location alone get one more trader added to give more incentive to visit those places. If we put another trader in the thieves dens and beside wayshrines that have nearby traders that I think would help a lot.
A new trade guild is going to struggle just like any other specialty guild will struggle. For many players in those top tier guilds that is their end game. They send most their time in game concentrating on selling. Social guilds can and do get traders so I know if a new trade guild is persistent they can get a spot most weeks.
The big trade guilds have to compete with every other guild out there that has a trader. They have the advantage of being in a high traffic area but that doesn't mean they are not competing with the little guys. Outside of the high traffic areas it is a good idea to list most items a bit below what they are selling for in the high traffic spots but rare items will sell for same price whatever the location.
I hear what you're saying but it seems like it really doesn't.
No Trade Guild of any kind gets a Vendor unless they can compete on the weekly bid, which even for those little outlaw holes in the wall is outrageously priced and fiercely fought over. No Kiosk equals no Trade Guild in the long run and looks bad for them not to have one. Big Guilds are fine, hey I'm not against anyone making money. However, they have the capital, the resources, the loyalties of folks so they can make the money to buy the bid, which even for them has become insanely expensive.
See what I'm saying? The weekly bidding mechanic is terrible for everyone. And a new Guild, unless it's being financed by one of the big Guilds, which they have no real reason to expand, cannot buy a Kiosk and thus they cannot grow naturally. ESO economy is like a nation where the big banks are in charge and they have money, they are powerful, but the system is dying because there is no room for new growth outside of them, no room for real competition and thus your prices on everything are out of sight.
Comes as no surprise to me.
The bidding mechanic is easily largest gold sink and fierce competition ensures as much gold gets flushed down the toilet as possible each week. Trader bids easily flush hundreds of millions of gold out of the economy every week. Getting rid of it would lead to crazy hyoerinflation
It makes no sense for a new or small trade guild to get a premium spot. Those spots are considered premium only because people know the guilds there have had dedicated teams working for years building a competitive guild store. If those locations were suddenly filled with new guilds with far below average stores then people wouldn't go there to shop anyway.
New guilds start at smaller locations and grow from there. Getting a new guild off the ground is going to require a capital investment and a lot of dedication.
People think that large trade guilds only stay afloat because they're too big to fail which is completely wrong. They have a team of people putting in hours of work every week to raise money for the bid because taxes alone aren't even close to enough to afford the bid. They organize events, raffles, auctions, etc every single week and have done so for many years.
Who are you or I to decide that?
And what is a premium spot? That could all change with a new system and that is the idea here.
Then get a trader at a reasonable price in a more reasonable location? If you dont care about a premium spot than this is a non issue. If you want a premium spot then you have to put forth the effort and make good decisions to get there. You aren't going to get what others have put literal years of effort into maintaining overnight. The current bid system is actually fantastic at countering inflation and is self regulating. The more gold that is flowing around the higher the bids go and the more gold that gets pumped out. Flat fees that anyone can afford is an awful system in comparison that will cause long term problems
Reasonable according to whom? None of it is reasonable anywhere. Perhaps for you, perhaps for some Guilds it might considered reasonable. For a new Trade Guild starting out... none of this is reasonable, not anywhere in the game currently.
The flat fees are for rent. Which would actually be variable depending on the size of the guild, not to exceed 500k.
And you say it would be awful.
How awful would it be compared to what is now? Indeed it would be awful for some because over the long term you're going to have to lower prices to sell and would ensure every market has enough competition instead of uhh 4 or 5 of the same Guilds doing the same thing every week. In 'their' same premium location.
You seem to have this backwards. Those guilds are what make the spot premium, not the other way around lol. The guilds are the premium. If you replaced every trader in Mourn with random new guilds with bad stores then it wouldn't be a premium spot and people wouldn't go there to shop like they do now. If you want your guild to succeed, you need to build up a pool of good traders who will fill the trader with desirable items other players want. This takes time and years of dedication which is what others have done and continue to do. You aren't going to get what others have put years of effort into doing just because you want it. You have to put that effort in too.
I'm going to have to disagree with this assessment. A spot isn't valuable because of the guild, it's valuable because of the traffic through it. A high traffic area, such as someone's earlier example of a downtown location, will be more valuable than a low traffic area, the edge of town, from the same example. How desirable a location is is how we end up with "high rent districts"...
Except there isn't this concept of traffic in ESO. You can teleport anywhere on the continent in seconds. You dont need to pass through a specific area or take a specific route through a major city to get places. There needs to be a reason to get people to go there. People go shopping in Mourn because they know the traders are stacked
Then no spots should be all that valuable.
No. I just said the traders bring in the value. Thats why the bids of various locations change over time. On PC-NA, Rawl'kha used to be the most valuable spot. But there was a lot of fighting to get one of the 5 traders there to the point where a few of the big guilds left Rawl to find more stable traders. Then the value of a Rawl trader fell drastically because a few of the best stores left. A couple of them went to Mourn and a couple went to Vivec. Not coincidentally, the value of traders at these locations starting going up as soon as the big traders moved in. Now Rawl is significantly cheaper while Mourn and Vivec are more expensive. Vivec actually used to be pretty cheap and now it's tied with Mourn as the most expensive. But hey, must be purely coincidence lol.
Nice snip job, I guess? Maybe your own arguments were too much?
You: Spots are only valuable because of the guilds in them.
Also you: There is no such thing as traffic, because you can teleport anywhere. Paraphrased
Also you: Mourn is popular because all the traders are lumped together and people will go there. Also paraphrased.
Me: So Mourn is popular because lots of people will go there.
You: Snips that out because it's inconvenient to your argument?
Lmao are you ok? Let me break this down for you. People go to Mourn to shop BECAUSE OF the traders that are there. If the those traders were not there, there would not be the traffic it currently has there. Once enough good traders bring in traffic, other guild want in on their piece of the pie which starts the competition. This drives prices up. This continues until only the guilds who generate the most revenue can remain there. The guilds that can generate the most revenue are going to be the ones who generate the most sales. You generate the most sales by having the most competitive guild stores.
This is made crystal clear by having some knowledge of what happens when traders leave a city. I was in a Rawl guild when the exodus of Rawl happened. I was also friends with a GM of a more casual trade guild in Vivec that got pushed out once a couple big traders started bringing in more traffic which lead to a drastic increase in price. It's not a coincidence that their trade bid remained stable for a long time then suddenly started rapidly climbing to the roof once a big trader or two made their way in
Let me break it down for you: It doesn't matter what guild owns those traders, they are going to be there regardless. So, guilds that can afford the bids make the bids because they know there's going to be a lot of traffic through there, because all the traders are there, no matter who owns them. You can LMAO all you like, you're not disproving anything I said.
Pro tip: If a lot of people will go to an area because of a high concentration of available traders, it's a high traffic area.0 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
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Except there isn't this concept of traffic in ESO. You can teleport anywhere on the continent in seconds. You dont need to pass through a specific area or take a specific route through a major city to get places. There needs to be a reason to get people to go there. People go shopping in Mourn because they know the traders are stacked
But the traders are "stacked" because that was a high-traffic area. It's circular at this point - the various "main" locations (Stormhaven, Grahtwood, Mourn, Rawl'ka) got the 'better' traders because they were the "main" locations that everyone went to do things (writs/Undaunted enclave/etc). And then they had the better traders, so people went there for that. etc, etc, etc.
Just because we can "teleport anywhere on the continent in seconds" doesn't mean that there aren't particular high-traffic areas. The main cities, with various amenities (Undaunted, Guilds, etc) along with larger numbers of Traders, will always be higher traffic than That Random One Trader Out In The Swamp. The casual player looking to buy something from a trader will go to one of the main cities, they're not going to trawl through a dozen lesser traders out in the sticks.
(and even the person who checks something on TTC will likely end up going to one of the main hubs - after all, that little trader out in the swamp, less people visit - so there's less chance of someone running TTC to visit and upload their listings to the website.)Edited by Kiralyn2000 on April 5, 2021 3:45PM4
This discussion has been closed.