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💰 Companions are Paywalled...
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spartaxoxoâœâœâœâœâœ
âœâœâœâœâœGoregrinder wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »robertthebard wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »l
After ZoS required additional purchases to complete some epic items from antiquities last year, there's now grounds for concern that they will do something similar with the companions feature. And the companions feature just in general is ripe for additional layers of monetization - it already plugs right in to existing monetization systems. Quite clever.
Ah. I understand now. I actually strongly disagree with that. Antiquities, for what it is was, could honestly only have been monetized this way. It was sold that way imo, and I never expected anything less. If I am to be able to explore the world finding the Antiquities, I would expect to actually find good stuff all over the place. And if they hadn't monetized that way, then Antiquities would be the first major system we couldn't use anywhere we could go.
We can use the jewelry we craft anywhere and put a jewelry station in any home.
We can use necros anywhere.
We can use transmuted gear anywhere.
So why wouldn't leads also drop anywhere? I actually would have felt cheated if the antiquity system was limited to only Western Skyrim because it would have been the only major new feature that we couldn't benefit from anywhere we could go.
So naturally, I would expect leads to come from anywhere and not just Western Skyrim.
Since leads are buried treasure, that also means ofc there would be Antiquities you couldn't access if you could not go anywhere.
The same inherently limiting factor is NOT part of companions. So I very much doubt there would be any reason why you'd to go to other locations to use them, aside from perhaps romantic quests.
see this is all fine, but.
the problem with antiquities is that the actual gear items require acess to DLC's. its not that there are individual leads in DLC's but rather to fully create an item - you HAD to have DLC acess. and to qualify for a golden coin, you also had to have acess to all the DLC content. that there are leads everywhere - is nice. but compound items should have never required anything outside of Skyrim and base game. IMO. it was a very sneaky and kinda not so nice way to push DLC (or subscription) sales.
So your problem is that they didn't put everything you need for something on one map?
how do you take "it should have been kept to base game" as one map?
my problem is that compound leads require DLC. I LIKE that there are leads everywhere. that there are unique furnishings, etc in every single zone. i do NOT think its good design that some of these things have leads that start in base game but cannot be completed unless you have acess to DLC as well. that is what makes antiquities different from other expansion features.
and bear in mind. I have subscription. it doesn't affect me personaly. but that doesn't mean that its a o'key to do.
I don't see how it matters that leads are available in all zones, you can't dig them up without unlocking antiquities anyways. That's like saying "You should only be allowed to wear the new gear from the new DLC in that DLC zone...". No, you need the DLC to unlock access to the gear, but that gear should definitely exist in all zones, even outside of said DLC zone. Your argument makes no sense to me.
consider for a moment. that you are a returning player and only bought the most recent expansion UPGRADE for its features. you can learn it and you can start finding leads... but you cannot complete the items because you need to subscribe or buy additional dlc's? how are you still missing the point here?
and here is the thing its NOT the same as DLC gear. DLC gear that is BoE can be sold on guild traders. I'm NOT complaining that there are leads in every zone. I'm complaining about things like THIS https://eso-sets.com/set/ring-of-the-pale-order base zone, base zone, base zone, woops - have to buy Wrothgar and Markarth to finish this item. you were teased with leads found in the base game... but nope. can't complete it unless you pay extra. syke!
imagine if you are trying to assemble a pet that was released with Summerset... but you cannot finish it, because some of the parts are hidden in Elsweyr. this is what we are dealing with here.
clockwork precursor for example has you going around different zones. but... other then clockwork DLC itself, it only sends you to base game zones. which is how it SHOULD be.
Yes, that's content that came out after antiquities was added. Unlocking antiquities doesn't mean you've now unlocked every lead the game will ever have forever. Is that what you were expecting? That's like me unlocking the Bow skill line and expecting every bow to now be available to me forever because I paid to have the bow skill line unlocked by buying the base game...not how it works.
how do you continue to MISS THE POINT?
imagine you unlock the bow skill - lets imagine that bow skill comes from a particular expansion. but the last two skills in the line are locked behind additional DLC purchases. THIS. THIS is the problem.
I'm not talking about being able to acess every lead. I'm talking about being able to complete COMPOUND leads without additional purchases.
But the antiquity skill line itself can be used anywhere, it's just some of the rewards are in other dlc areas.
The bow equivalent of that would be if there styles of bows or types of bows you could only unlock with dlc. Which is the case. You can use the bow anywhere you can go. You can use the antiquity skill anywhere you can go. But if you want every bow there is in the game, including nice ones with offensive bonuses you have to have all the dlc. Likewise if you want all the antiquities, you have to be able to go anywhere.
Bow skills are enhanced through dlc gated content like arena bows.
As I said I would have felt cheated if Antiquities worked the way you describe because every other skill line benefits me everywhere. There are nice antiquities you can get without owning any dlc. There are mythic gear items you can get without eso+ or access to non-free dlc such as Blood Lord's Embrace.
Edited by spartaxoxo on April 1, 2021 8:28PM2 -
Linaleahâœâœâœâœâœ
âœâœâœâœâœrobertthebard wrote: »robertthebard wrote: »robertthebard wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »robertthebard wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »l
After ZoS required additional purchases to complete some epic items from antiquities last year, there's now grounds for concern that they will do something similar with the companions feature. And the companions feature just in general is ripe for additional layers of monetization - it already plugs right in to existing monetization systems. Quite clever.
Ah. I understand now. I actually strongly disagree with that. Antiquities, for what it is was, could honestly only have been monetized this way. It was sold that way imo, and I never expected anything less. If I am to be able to explore the world finding the Antiquities, I would expect to actually find good stuff all over the place. And if they hadn't monetized that way, then Antiquities would be the first major system we couldn't use anywhere we could go.
We can use the jewelry we craft anywhere and put a jewelry station in any home.
We can use necros anywhere.
We can use transmuted gear anywhere.
So why wouldn't leads also drop anywhere? I actually would have felt cheated if the antiquity system was limited to only Western Skyrim because it would have been the only major new feature that we couldn't benefit from anywhere we could go.
So naturally, I would expect leads to come from anywhere and not just Western Skyrim.
Since leads are buried treasure, that also means ofc there would be Antiquities you couldn't access if you could not go anywhere.
The same inherently limiting factor is NOT part of companions. So I very much doubt there would be any reason why you'd to go to other locations to use them, aside from perhaps romantic quests.
see this is all fine, but.
the problem with antiquities is that the actual gear items require acess to DLC's. its not that there are individual leads in DLC's but rather to fully create an item - you HAD to have DLC acess. and to qualify for a golden coin, you also had to have acess to all the DLC content. that there are leads everywhere - is nice. but compound items should have never required anything outside of Skyrim and base game. IMO. it was a very sneaky and kinda not so nice way to push DLC (or subscription) sales.
So your problem is that they didn't put everything you need for something on one map?
how do you take "it should have been kept to base game" as one map?
my problem is that compound leads require DLC. I LIKE that there are leads everywhere. that there are unique furnishings, etc in every single zone. i do NOT think its good design that some of these things have leads that start in base game but cannot be completed unless you have acess to DLC as well. that is what makes antiquities different from other expansion features.
and bear in mind. I have subscription. it doesn't affect me personaly. but that doesn't mean that its a o'key to do.
I don't see how it matters that leads are available in all zones, you can't dig them up without unlocking antiquities anyways. That's like saying "You should only be allowed to wear the new gear from the new DLC in that DLC zone...". No, you need the DLC to unlock access to the gear, but that gear should definitely exist in all zones, even outside of said DLC zone. Your argument makes no sense to me.
consider for a moment. that you are a returning player and only bought the most recent expansion UPGRADE for its features. you can learn it and you can start finding leads... but you cannot complete the items because you need to subscribe or buy additional dlc's? how are you still missing the point here?
and here is the thing its NOT the same as DLC gear. DLC gear that is BoE can be sold on guild traders. I'm NOT complaining that there are leads in every zone. I'm complaining about things like THIS https://eso-sets.com/set/ring-of-the-pale-order base zone, base zone, base zone, woops - have to buy Wrothgar and Markarth to finish this item. you were teased with leads found in the base game... but nope. can't complete it unless you pay extra. syke!
imagine if you are trying to assemble a pet that was released with Summerset... but you cannot finish it, because some of the parts are hidden in Elsweyr. this is what we are dealing with here.
clockwork precursor for example has you going around different zones. but... other then clockwork DLC itself, it only sends you to base game zones. which is how it SHOULD be.
Yes, that's content that came out after antiquities was added. Unlocking antiquities doesn't mean you've now unlocked every lead the game will ever have forever. Is that what you were expecting? That's like me unlocking the Bow skill line and expecting every bow to now be available to me forever because I paid to have the bow skill line unlocked by buying the base game...not how it works.
how do you continue to MISS THE POINT?
imagine you unlock the bow skill - lets imagine that bow skill comes from a particular expansion. but the last two skills in the line are locked behind additional DLC purchases. THIS. THIS is the problem.
I'm not talking about being able to acess every lead. I'm talking about being able to complete COMPOUND leads without additional purchases.
So is your expectation that they should never release any antiquities for any future content zones? Because that seems a little ridiculous. Just because Greymoor had antiquities, doesn't mean Markarth, or Blackwood shouldn't.
Like, Blackwood is introducing Companions. Would it then be a problem if the Q4 DLC released a companion that you could obtain in the zone? Or any future zones for that matter. None of that takes away from the fact that a limited set were released in the chapter that introduced them, with the promise that more would come in other ways. The exact same thing they said with the Antiquities when they were announced.
sigh. no. my expectation is that if they release a DLC zone, then whatever leads are in it - are confined to that zone.
Why? What does it matter? If the only way to access the item is to buy that DLC, why does it matter if there are leads in other zones? They don't take up inventory space, you won't see them ever after you get the first one. It's just uselessly limiting to one zone. There is no point to do that.
Just like there is no point to not have antiquity leads in every zone in game.
it matters because it is an advertised feature you may have bought the expansion for in a first place. and not just antiquities in general, but mythic items specifically (they did use them as a selling point) and you cannot complete them. if you buy a chapter for a feature. then that feature can NOT require anything other then base game to utilize.
Did that feature not come with what you purchased? Did I miss the part where they said "You'll be able to obtain every item in this content release"? You see, there's a difference between the feature, scrying, and the items that can be made/found via scrying.
tell me. are you ok with miscellaneous furnishings achievement being behind a paywall as well? after all... you can still do housing, you just cannot get that achievement, unless you open up your pocketbook, cause the only miscellaneous furnishings in game are crown store only. (and they didn't used to be, but they have recategorized the in game miscellaneous furnishings, and now its crown store only achievement)
why is this relevant? because its the same idea of features essentially being sold in an incomplete form and made even more incomplete further down the line, unless you pay extra. so are you ok with this? just curious.
Is it? So you have to access to maps that haven't been released yet in order for scrying to be complete?
sigh. no. I should be able to complete items that are available in base game OR any one dlc - without having to buy acess to further DLC's. which is why I brought up the idea of a BoP gear set being spread across multiple DLC's so that in order to get a 5 pc set bonus, you had to pay extra, instead of the way they are tied to a singular DLC at a time. if there is an item that needs to be assembled and is introduced with a new DLC? you should only need that DLC to complete it.
psijic skill line is complete. we get portals in DLC zones, but we do not need those DLC to complete the line or loot portals outside of it. warden and necromancer are complete because in order to utilize them you either have their associated chapters, or you buy them as a class and you do not need anything else to play them other then the base game.
housing used to be complete. since you didn't need crown store or DLC to complete all of the achievements for it. its not complete anymore. antiquities is not complete because mythic items require multiple DLC's to complete, not just graymoor and base game.
and yes SWTOR monetanization is awful. there are games out there that are even worse. are we really going with "at least we are not AS bad"
Except that the DLC takes an entire year to come out. We get parts of the story at a time, not the full release, and it's been this way for how long? So you didn't get access to everything all at once? What that tells me is that, like every other MMO in existence, they want you to play longer, and hopefully, while you're playing longer, to spend some more money. I want so much to share in this dismay at a business trying to make money, but I know entirely too many self employed people for that to apply.
I'm not dismayed at business trying to make money, but rather in how they are trying to make money. I'm not a fan of "well subscription and DLC's are optional, but no, not really" it feels a bit too much like a bait and switch.
but that seems to be the pattern with ZoS, and I guess people have just accepted it at this point. sigh. I used to buy crowns. these practices is why i do not anymore. I still subscribe because lets be honest, with each new addition to the game, subscription becomes more and more vital for a decent experience and there are too many aspects I still enjoy. but that doesn't mean I cannot point out the issues. I used to subscribe to SWTOR as well. bought expansions as they came out too (before they started unlocking them with subscription). used to.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***1 -
josiahvaâœâœâœâœâœ
âœThis is where I think you have a misunderstanding of what Greymoor offered. You weren't buying mythics. You were buying a skill line that let's you hunt for mythics and antiquities.
When a company explicitly markets mythic items as a major draw of the chapter feature, I don't think there's a leg to stand on here. Players absolutely bought the chapter to have access to mythic items, specifically. There is no "misunderstanding" when ZoS was hyping up this feature without mentioning additional purchases were necessary to finish some of these mythic items. One of these items that requires additional purchases is also one that's been called out as feeling "pay to win" to some players - Malcath's Band of Brutality, only able to be completed if a customer buys the chapter AND Wrothgar. There was no reason to further paywall this item. But they did, and weren't transparent about it, and that's troubling. We may see the same thing with companions.
This is a silly stance. By that metric...then say you want False God's Devotion...you HAVE to run Sunspire to get it...no ifs, and, or buts about it. That REQUIRES the Elsweyr expansion. Therefore that set is locked behind a paywall as well. So there is no difference between FG and Malacath's Band of Brutality(or other mythic of your choice).
There is also nothing wrong with this...you don't need either set to play the game or to thrive. Sure, your DPS may not be as high as other people's but that is completely irrelevant. The fact is if you want the latest content, you have to pay for it...however you want to spin it, people spent time making that content...if you expect people to work for you without pay...there is a word for that...slavery. Nothing gives you the right to demand other people work for you without pay and implying that a company asking for money for its services is evil is just ridiculous...this is how business works.
You are perfectly free NOT to buy any content that offends you personally for whatever reason...but guess what? "the big bad world doesn't owe you a thing". In the infamous words of that song, and the world especially doesn't owe you a thing for free.
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spartaxoxoâœâœâœâœâœ
âœâœâœâœâœThis is where I think you have a misunderstanding of what Greymoor offered. You weren't buying mythics. You were buying a skill line that let's you hunt for mythics and antiquities.
When a company explicitly markets mythic items as a major draw of the chapter feature, I don't think there's a leg to stand on here. Players absolutely bought the chapter to have access to mythic items, specifically. There is no "misunderstanding" when ZoS was hyping up this feature without mentioning additional purchases were necessary to finish some of these mythic items. One of these items that requires additional purchases is also one that's been called out as feeling "pay to win" to some players - Malcath's Band of Brutality, only able to be completed if a customer buys the chapter AND Wrothgar. There was no reason to further paywall this item. But they did, and weren't transparent about it, and that's troubling. We may see the same thing with companions.
This is a silly stance. By that metric...then say you want False God's Devotion...you HAVE to run Sunspire to get it...no ifs, and, or buts about it. That REQUIRES the Elsweyr expansion. Therefore that set is locked behind a paywall as well. So there is no difference between FG and Malacath's Band of Brutality(or other mythic of your choice).
There is also nothing wrong with this...you don't need either set to play the game or to thrive. Sure, your DPS may not be as high as other people's but that is completely irrelevant. The fact is if you want the latest content, you have to pay for it...however you want to spin it, people spent time making that content...if you expect people to work for you without pay...there is a word for that...slavery. Nothing gives you the right to demand other people work for you without pay and implying that a company asking for money for its services is evil is just ridiculous...this is how business works.
You are perfectly free NOT to buy any content that offends you personally for whatever reason...but guess what? "the big bad world doesn't owe you a thing". In the infamous words of that song, and the world especially doesn't owe you a thing for free.
I mean I like the way antiquities work. But no, it's not asking the developers to be slaves to keep new content in the new content you buy. It's asking not to be double charged by requiring old content.1 -
Goregrinderâœâœâœâœâœ
âœâœspartaxoxo wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »Goregrinder wrote: »robertthebard wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »l
After ZoS required additional purchases to complete some epic items from antiquities last year, there's now grounds for concern that they will do something similar with the companions feature. And the companions feature just in general is ripe for additional layers of monetization - it already plugs right in to existing monetization systems. Quite clever.
Ah. I understand now. I actually strongly disagree with that. Antiquities, for what it is was, could honestly only have been monetized this way. It was sold that way imo, and I never expected anything less. If I am to be able to explore the world finding the Antiquities, I would expect to actually find good stuff all over the place. And if they hadn't monetized that way, then Antiquities would be the first major system we couldn't use anywhere we could go.
We can use the jewelry we craft anywhere and put a jewelry station in any home.
We can use necros anywhere.
We can use transmuted gear anywhere.
So why wouldn't leads also drop anywhere? I actually would have felt cheated if the antiquity system was limited to only Western Skyrim because it would have been the only major new feature that we couldn't benefit from anywhere we could go.
So naturally, I would expect leads to come from anywhere and not just Western Skyrim.
Since leads are buried treasure, that also means ofc there would be Antiquities you couldn't access if you could not go anywhere.
The same inherently limiting factor is NOT part of companions. So I very much doubt there would be any reason why you'd to go to other locations to use them, aside from perhaps romantic quests.
see this is all fine, but.
the problem with antiquities is that the actual gear items require acess to DLC's. its not that there are individual leads in DLC's but rather to fully create an item - you HAD to have DLC acess. and to qualify for a golden coin, you also had to have acess to all the DLC content. that there are leads everywhere - is nice. but compound items should have never required anything outside of Skyrim and base game. IMO. it was a very sneaky and kinda not so nice way to push DLC (or subscription) sales.
So your problem is that they didn't put everything you need for something on one map?
how do you take "it should have been kept to base game" as one map?
my problem is that compound leads require DLC. I LIKE that there are leads everywhere. that there are unique furnishings, etc in every single zone. i do NOT think its good design that some of these things have leads that start in base game but cannot be completed unless you have acess to DLC as well. that is what makes antiquities different from other expansion features.
and bear in mind. I have subscription. it doesn't affect me personaly. but that doesn't mean that its a o'key to do.
I don't see how it matters that leads are available in all zones, you can't dig them up without unlocking antiquities anyways. That's like saying "You should only be allowed to wear the new gear from the new DLC in that DLC zone...". No, you need the DLC to unlock access to the gear, but that gear should definitely exist in all zones, even outside of said DLC zone. Your argument makes no sense to me.
consider for a moment. that you are a returning player and only bought the most recent expansion UPGRADE for its features. you can learn it and you can start finding leads... but you cannot complete the items because you need to subscribe or buy additional dlc's? how are you still missing the point here?
and here is the thing its NOT the same as DLC gear. DLC gear that is BoE can be sold on guild traders. I'm NOT complaining that there are leads in every zone. I'm complaining about things like THIS https://eso-sets.com/set/ring-of-the-pale-order base zone, base zone, base zone, woops - have to buy Wrothgar and Markarth to finish this item. you were teased with leads found in the base game... but nope. can't complete it unless you pay extra. syke!
imagine if you are trying to assemble a pet that was released with Summerset... but you cannot finish it, because some of the parts are hidden in Elsweyr. this is what we are dealing with here.
clockwork precursor for example has you going around different zones. but... other then clockwork DLC itself, it only sends you to base game zones. which is how it SHOULD be.
Yes, that's content that came out after antiquities was added. Unlocking antiquities doesn't mean you've now unlocked every lead the game will ever have forever. Is that what you were expecting? That's like me unlocking the Bow skill line and expecting every bow to now be available to me forever because I paid to have the bow skill line unlocked by buying the base game...not how it works.
how do you continue to MISS THE POINT?
imagine you unlock the bow skill - lets imagine that bow skill comes from a particular expansion. but the last two skills in the line are locked behind additional DLC purchases. THIS. THIS is the problem.
I'm not talking about being able to acess every lead. I'm talking about being able to complete COMPOUND leads without additional purchases.
But the antiquity skill line itself can be used anywhere, it's just some of the rewards are in other dlc areas.
The bow equivalent of that would be if there styles of bows or types of bows you could only unlock with dlc. Which is the case. You can use the bow anywhere you can go. You can use the antiquity skill anywhere you can go. But if you want every bow there is in the game, including nice ones with offensive bonuses you have to have all the dlc. Likewise if you want all the antiquities, you have to be able to go anywhere.
Bow skills are enhanced through dlc gated content like arena bows.
As I said I would have felt cheated if Antiquities worked the way you describe because every other skill line benefits me everywhere. There are nice antiquities you can get without owning any dlc. There are mythic gear items you can get without eso+ or access to non-free dlc such as Blood Lord's Embrace.
You get it man. /golfclap0 -
robertthebardâœâœâœâœâœrobertthebard wrote: »Except that the DLC takes an entire year to come out. We get parts of the story at a time, not the full release, and it's been this way for how long? So you didn't get access to everything all at once? What that tells me is that, like every other MMO in existence, they want you to play longer, and hopefully, while you're playing longer, to spend some more money. I want so much to share in this dismay at a business trying to make money, but I know entirely too many self employed people for that to apply.
I'm not dismayed at business trying to make money, but rather in how they are trying to make money. I'm not a fan of "well subscription and DLC's are optional, but no, not really" it feels a bit too much like a bait and switch.
but that seems to be the pattern with ZoS, and I guess people have just accepted it at this point. sigh. I used to buy crowns. these practices is why i do not anymore. I still subscribe because lets be honest, with each new addition to the game, subscription becomes more and more vital for a decent experience and there are too many aspects I still enjoy. but that doesn't mean I cannot point out the issues. I used to subscribe to SWTOR as well. bought expansions as they came out too (before they started unlocking them with subscription). used to.
Except that you can scry in any zone you can visit, once you have the skill line. No bait, no switch. I can gather mats for Jewelry crafting in every zone I can go to, which as of today is all of them. Again, no bait, no switch. I have the skill line unlocked, and I can use it. I didn't buy the results of the crafting line, but the crafting line, just as with scrying. I bought the ability to do it, not the results.4 -
Sylvermynxâœâœâœâœâœ
âœâœâœâœâœ
you may change your mind, if they work out as advertised and allow us to essentially do a lot more group content - solo. meaning even with your connection issues, you might have an opportunity to do dungeon quests. at your own pace.Sylvermynx wrote: »Apparently. I'd be buying the chapter eventually, but I refuse to pre purchase it. I'll pick it up on sale somewhere. Though I'm not very interested in companions personally - never have been in any game I've ever played.
I have a good RL friend who's seriously foaming at the mouth for them. I'll talk to her after she's used them for a few weeks. If they're not going to get in the way (like every companion in every game I've ever played except for turn based) I'll try one maybe.1 -
DigiAngelâœâœâœâœâœ
âœHonestly I thought most everything besides the base game was paywalled? I'm a magcro and, at one time at least, False God's Devotion was the BIS, only by purchasing Elswyer was that available. Same with Zaan...needed a DLC. My expectation has been...and will continue to be....want the best (gear or other), then you'll end up paying for it.0 -
Odovacarâœâœâœâœâœ
âœâœNo surprise here, yeah? I only purchased Greymoor for NA and so no mythics on my EU account. It was my decision...now we all have another one (non-eso+ users) if we're going to purchase the next chapter release or not. FYI this requires a bit of money everyone
0 -
Goregrinderâœâœâœâœâœ
âœâœrobertthebard wrote: »robertthebard wrote: »Except that the DLC takes an entire year to come out. We get parts of the story at a time, not the full release, and it's been this way for how long? So you didn't get access to everything all at once? What that tells me is that, like every other MMO in existence, they want you to play longer, and hopefully, while you're playing longer, to spend some more money. I want so much to share in this dismay at a business trying to make money, but I know entirely too many self employed people for that to apply.
I'm not dismayed at business trying to make money, but rather in how they are trying to make money. I'm not a fan of "well subscription and DLC's are optional, but no, not really" it feels a bit too much like a bait and switch.
but that seems to be the pattern with ZoS, and I guess people have just accepted it at this point. sigh. I used to buy crowns. these practices is why i do not anymore. I still subscribe because lets be honest, with each new addition to the game, subscription becomes more and more vital for a decent experience and there are too many aspects I still enjoy. but that doesn't mean I cannot point out the issues. I used to subscribe to SWTOR as well. bought expansions as they came out too (before they started unlocking them with subscription). used to.
Except that you can scry in any zone you can visit, once you have the skill line. No bait, no switch. I can gather mats for Jewelry crafting in every zone I can go to, which as of today is all of them. Again, no bait, no switch. I have the skill line unlocked, and I can use it. I didn't buy the results of the crafting line, but the crafting line, just as with scrying. I bought the ability to do it, not the results.
You are 100% correct there. Greymoor paid for the ability to scry, not for access to every item you can scry for.2 -
Starlockâœâœâœâœâœ
âœâœâœâœâœspartaxoxo wrote: »This is where I think you have a misunderstanding of what Greymoor offered. You weren't buying mythics. You were buying a skill line that let's you hunt for mythics and antiquities.
When a company explicitly markets mythic items as a major draw of the chapter feature, I don't think there's a leg to stand on here. Players absolutely bought the chapter to have access to mythic items, specifically. There is no "misunderstanding" when ZoS was hyping up this feature without mentioning additional purchases were necessary to finish some of these mythic items. One of these items that requires additional purchases is also one that's been called out as feeling "pay to win" to some players - Malcath's Band of Brutality, only able to be completed if a customer buys the chapter AND Wrothgar. There was no reason to further paywall this item. But they did, and weren't transparent about it, and that's troubling. We may see the same thing with companions.
This is a silly stance. By that metric...then say you want False God's Devotion...you HAVE to run Sunspire to get it...no ifs, and, or buts about it. That REQUIRES the Elsweyr expansion. Therefore that set is locked behind a paywall as well. So there is no difference between FG and Malacath's Band of Brutality(or other mythic of your choice).
There is also nothing wrong with this...you don't need either set to play the game or to thrive. Sure, your DPS may not be as high as other people's but that is completely irrelevant. The fact is if you want the latest content, you have to pay for it...however you want to spin it, people spent time making that content...if you expect people to work for you without pay...there is a word for that...slavery. Nothing gives you the right to demand other people work for you without pay and implying that a company asking for money for its services is evil is just ridiculous...this is how business works.
You are perfectly free NOT to buy any content that offends you personally for whatever reason...but guess what? "the big bad world doesn't owe you a thing". In the infamous words of that song, and the world especially doesn't owe you a thing for free.
I mean I like the way antiquities work. But no, it's not asking the developers to be slaves to keep new content in the new content you buy. It's asking not to be double charged by requiring old content.
Yup. I'm not surprised at how many customers misunderstand what the issue is or why it's a problem.
The problem isn't adding new paid content/DLCs (e.g., False God's Devotion set in Elsweyr).
The problem is double paywalling and having a situation of "pay $40 for chapter expansion feature.... now pay another $15 to finish the mythic item you thought your $40 was already covering." That's a load of daedroth poo, whether or not it was done intentionally.0 -
robertthebardâœâœâœâœâœspartaxoxo wrote: »This is where I think you have a misunderstanding of what Greymoor offered. You weren't buying mythics. You were buying a skill line that let's you hunt for mythics and antiquities.
When a company explicitly markets mythic items as a major draw of the chapter feature, I don't think there's a leg to stand on here. Players absolutely bought the chapter to have access to mythic items, specifically. There is no "misunderstanding" when ZoS was hyping up this feature without mentioning additional purchases were necessary to finish some of these mythic items. One of these items that requires additional purchases is also one that's been called out as feeling "pay to win" to some players - Malcath's Band of Brutality, only able to be completed if a customer buys the chapter AND Wrothgar. There was no reason to further paywall this item. But they did, and weren't transparent about it, and that's troubling. We may see the same thing with companions.
This is a silly stance. By that metric...then say you want False God's Devotion...you HAVE to run Sunspire to get it...no ifs, and, or buts about it. That REQUIRES the Elsweyr expansion. Therefore that set is locked behind a paywall as well. So there is no difference between FG and Malacath's Band of Brutality(or other mythic of your choice).
There is also nothing wrong with this...you don't need either set to play the game or to thrive. Sure, your DPS may not be as high as other people's but that is completely irrelevant. The fact is if you want the latest content, you have to pay for it...however you want to spin it, people spent time making that content...if you expect people to work for you without pay...there is a word for that...slavery. Nothing gives you the right to demand other people work for you without pay and implying that a company asking for money for its services is evil is just ridiculous...this is how business works.
You are perfectly free NOT to buy any content that offends you personally for whatever reason...but guess what? "the big bad world doesn't owe you a thing". In the infamous words of that song, and the world especially doesn't owe you a thing for free.
I mean I like the way antiquities work. But no, it's not asking the developers to be slaves to keep new content in the new content you buy. It's asking not to be double charged by requiring old content.
Yup. I'm not surprised at how many customers misunderstand what the issue is or why it's a problem.
The problem isn't adding new paid content/DLCs (e.g., False God's Devotion set in Elsweyr).
The problem is double paywalling and having a situation of "pay $40 for chapter expansion feature.... now pay another $15 to finish the mythic item you thought your $40 was already covering." That's a load of daedroth poo, whether or not it was done intentionally.
That's not a design issue, unless you can provide some links to marketing that guarantee you'll be able to finish any of the outcomes of scrying? It's an expectation issue. As a consumer, I was not deceived, I'm coming closer to that with people telling me that I was misled about what I was buying. I bought the ability to scry for things, and that's what I got. It's what I understood was available for purchase as well. Being upset about what wasn't in one map of this content is like being upset about what's coming up that we can scry for in content that isn't released yet. After all, it's exactly the same thing, right? A scrying result isn't available right now, and will only be available if we buy the expansion, for the new map that has new stuff to scry for in it.2 -
Auth3nticGlitchâœâœâœI get what you're saying about antiquities, I never knew that you required all the DLC's to get all the items available even though I still don't own Greymoor anyways, but I actually would be slightly upset about needing specific DLC's that I never owned in order to get those items they said you can get with that chapter. It's kind of like how they make specific events require some DLC's and then make it so that if you don't have that DLC you won't earn enough tickets to get all the components required for the morpholith + skin. With that said if you play enough and especially trade enough, you can easily get all DLC's with in-game gold, so antiquities is not really behind a "paywall" if you consider that.1
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Linaleahâœâœâœâœâœ
âœâœâœâœâœNo surprise here, yeah? I only purchased Greymoor for NA and so no mythics on my EU account. It was my decision...now we all have another one (non-eso+ users) if we're going to purchase the next chapter release or not. FYI this requires a bit of money everyone
umm. how? greymoor is not on crown store yet and its the only way it would be NA only. if you bought greymoor from ESO store, or other sources - you have greymoor on both US and EU. chapters purchased outside of crownstore - apply to both. just like crowns are usable on both (though while crowns are shared for both servers, purchases from store - are not)dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***0 -
ThorianBâœâœâœâœâœ
âœPaywall on these forums = "WHAT! You are going to force me to support the cost to run the game by actually purchasing things like chapters and subscriptions for new content!?!?! That is ludicrous! I should get free content forever because i bought the game once when it was on sale like 5 years ago!"
1 -
spartaxoxoâœâœâœâœâœ
âœâœâœâœâœSo is your expectation that they should never release any antiquities for any future content zones? Because that seems a little ridiculous. Just because Greymoor had antiquities, doesn't mean Markarth, or Blackwood shouldn't.
Man I'm getting frustrated reading these responses and I don't even agree with her.
She doesn't expect them to release items only in Western Skyrim/base game. She wanted the initial Mythic items to only require Western Skryim and Base Game content. And she wants later releases like Ring of the Pale Order to only require Western Skyrim and the new zone dlc you just purchased.
So Ring of the Pale Order would drop from 3 separate purchases (Wrothgar, Markarth, and Western Skyrim) to 2 separate purchases (Markarth and Western Skyrim)
And the mythics that released with Greymoor only requires 1 purchase, Greymoor. So Malacath's Band of Brutality would only require Greymoor to be purchased and not Greymoor and Wrothgar.
She's fine with the non-mythic items being locked behind the dlc paywall because those leads can only be acquired in those zones. So Anvil of Old Orsinium would be fine deopping from Wrothgar. And they are fun bonus items that enchance the skill line, rather than the selling point of it.
Basically she views the point of the Antiquity system for most players to be to get the mythic item and not scrying for it's own sake. So she wanted the initial mythic items (and the mythic items alone) to be restriced only to base game+Western Skyrim.Edited by spartaxoxo on April 1, 2021 10:33PM4 -
robertthebardâœâœâœâœâœspartaxoxo wrote: »So is your expectation that they should never release any antiquities for any future content zones? Because that seems a little ridiculous. Just because Greymoor had antiquities, doesn't mean Markarth, or Blackwood shouldn't.
Man I'm getting frustrated reading these responses and I don't even agree with her.
She doesn't expect them to release items only in Western Skyrim/base game. She wanted the initial Mythic items to only require Western Skryim and Base Game content. And she wants later releases like Ring of the Pale Order to only require Western Skyrim and the new zone dlc you just purchased.
So Ring of the Pale Order would drop from 3 separate purchases (Wrothgar, Markarth, and Western Skyrim) to 2 separate purchases (Markarth and Western Skyrim)
And the mythics that released with Greymoor only requires 1 purchase, Greymoor. So Malacath's Band of Brutality would only require Greymoor to be purchased and not Greymoor and Wrothgar.
She's fine with the non-mythic items being locked behind the dlc paywall because those leads can only be acquired in those zones. So Anvil of Old Orsinium would be fine deopping from Wrothgar. And they are fun bonus items that enchance the skill line, rather than the selling point of it.
Basically she views the point of the Antiquity system for most players to be to get the mythic item and not scrying for it's own sake. So she wanted the initial mythic items (and the mythic items alone) to be restriced only to base game+Western Skyrim.
The only problem I have with that is that that's not what we were told, and it wasn't implied anywhere either. We were sold the method for getting the rewards, not the rewards. Just like Jewelry Crafting. Any expectations beyond that are on the player, and misconceptions about what they were buying are not the fault of the game, unless they specifically state something to the contrary. Since it's a select few viewing it this way, instead of how a lot of others see it, then it's not advertising that's the fault. We all saw the same stuff. Some just wanted it to be something it wasn't.3 -
spartaxoxoâœâœâœâœâœ
âœâœâœâœâœrobertthebard wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »So is your expectation that they should never release any antiquities for any future content zones? Because that seems a little ridiculous. Just because Greymoor had antiquities, doesn't mean Markarth, or Blackwood shouldn't.
Man I'm getting frustrated reading these responses and I don't even agree with her.
She doesn't expect them to release items only in Western Skyrim/base game. She wanted the initial Mythic items to only require Western Skryim and Base Game content. And she wants later releases like Ring of the Pale Order to only require Western Skyrim and the new zone dlc you just purchased.
So Ring of the Pale Order would drop from 3 separate purchases (Wrothgar, Markarth, and Western Skyrim) to 2 separate purchases (Markarth and Western Skyrim)
And the mythics that released with Greymoor only requires 1 purchase, Greymoor. So Malacath's Band of Brutality would only require Greymoor to be purchased and not Greymoor and Wrothgar.
She's fine with the non-mythic items being locked behind the dlc paywall because those leads can only be acquired in those zones. So Anvil of Old Orsinium would be fine deopping from Wrothgar. And they are fun bonus items that enchance the skill line, rather than the selling point of it.
Basically she views the point of the Antiquity system for most players to be to get the mythic item and not scrying for it's own sake. So she wanted the initial mythic items (and the mythic items alone) to be restriced only to base game+Western Skyrim.
The only problem I have with that is that that's not what we were told, and it wasn't implied anywhere either. We were sold the method for getting the rewards, not the rewards. Just like Jewelry Crafting. Any expectations beyond that are on the player, and misconceptions about what they were buying are not the fault of the game, unless they specifically state something to the contrary. Since it's a select few viewing it this way, instead of how a lot of others see it, then it's not advertising that's the fault. We all saw the same stuff. Some just wanted it to be something it wasn't.
I mean it's not how the major gear of a zone was sold ever before. So thinking the purchase requirements would be the same as every other gear release wasn't some baseless assumption.
It probably should have explicitly been mentioned that mythic gear in particular could come from anywhere in Tamriel. The antiquities were said to but I don't recall Mythic items being stated as such, and those were highlighted as a selling point of Western Skyrim.
I just assumed mythics would work like all the other antiquities did though, and that they'd be found all over Tamriel. Which I thought might be a cool way to revitalize old content. So I expected them to work the way they did and am glad they do. But, my guess was just as much of an assumption as hers based on both of us making assumptions about similar content. That mine turned out to be the correct one doesn't make it any less of an assumption. Hers was based on just as much reason as mine.
I personally find mine to be a bit more reasonable just because my assumption was based on details of the new system they were highlighting and not on old information about how other systems work, but she's not coming out of left field here. And ZOS could have done a better job explaining that part.Edited by spartaxoxo on April 1, 2021 10:46PM1 -
linuxladyâœâœâœâœmorrowind - warden. a year later you could buy warden from the craft store
summerset - jewelry crafting - eso plus a year latter it was free to access the crafter trainer
elsweyr - necromancer - a year later it could be bought from the craft store
west skrim - antiquities - soon we will see how that shake out but really i could care less because i am NEVER scrying
NEW thingy coming out in a couple months - companions -
nothing to see here it's just how zos rolls.1 -
robertthebardâœâœâœâœâœspartaxoxo wrote: »robertthebard wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »So is your expectation that they should never release any antiquities for any future content zones? Because that seems a little ridiculous. Just because Greymoor had antiquities, doesn't mean Markarth, or Blackwood shouldn't.
Man I'm getting frustrated reading these responses and I don't even agree with her.
She doesn't expect them to release items only in Western Skyrim/base game. She wanted the initial Mythic items to only require Western Skryim and Base Game content. And she wants later releases like Ring of the Pale Order to only require Western Skyrim and the new zone dlc you just purchased.
So Ring of the Pale Order would drop from 3 separate purchases (Wrothgar, Markarth, and Western Skyrim) to 2 separate purchases (Markarth and Western Skyrim)
And the mythics that released with Greymoor only requires 1 purchase, Greymoor. So Malacath's Band of Brutality would only require Greymoor to be purchased and not Greymoor and Wrothgar.
She's fine with the non-mythic items being locked behind the dlc paywall because those leads can only be acquired in those zones. So Anvil of Old Orsinium would be fine deopping from Wrothgar. And they are fun bonus items that enchance the skill line, rather than the selling point of it.
Basically she views the point of the Antiquity system for most players to be to get the mythic item and not scrying for it's own sake. So she wanted the initial mythic items (and the mythic items alone) to be restriced only to base game+Western Skyrim.
The only problem I have with that is that that's not what we were told, and it wasn't implied anywhere either. We were sold the method for getting the rewards, not the rewards. Just like Jewelry Crafting. Any expectations beyond that are on the player, and misconceptions about what they were buying are not the fault of the game, unless they specifically state something to the contrary. Since it's a select few viewing it this way, instead of how a lot of others see it, then it's not advertising that's the fault. We all saw the same stuff. Some just wanted it to be something it wasn't.
I mean it's not how the major gear of a zone was sold ever before. So thinking the purchase requirements would be the same as every other gear release wasn't some baseless assumption.
It probably should have explicitly been mentioned that mythic gear in particular could come from anywhere in Tamriel. The antiquities were said to but I don't recall Mythic items being stated as such, and those were highlighted as a selling point of Western Skyrim.
I just assumed mythics would work like all the other antiquities did though, and that they'd be found all over Tamriel. Which I thought might be a cool way to revitalize old content. So I expected them to work the way they did and am glad they do. But, my guess was just as much of an assumption as hers based on both of us making assumptions about similar content. That mine turned out to be the correct one doesn't make it any less of an assumption. Hers was based on just as much reason as mine.
I personally find mine to be a bit more reasonable just because my assumption was based on details of the new system they were highlighting and not on old information about how other systems work, but she's not coming out of left field here. And ZOS could have done a better job explaining that part.
Except it wasn't a gear release, it was a skill line release, and assorted items, including gear, are on the menu for scrying. I too expected the really good stuff to be scattered all over, and I'd have been surprised if it hadn't been.0 -
Linaleahâœâœâœâœâœ
âœâœâœâœâœrobertthebard wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »robertthebard wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »So is your expectation that they should never release any antiquities for any future content zones? Because that seems a little ridiculous. Just because Greymoor had antiquities, doesn't mean Markarth, or Blackwood shouldn't.
Man I'm getting frustrated reading these responses and I don't even agree with her.
She doesn't expect them to release items only in Western Skyrim/base game. She wanted the initial Mythic items to only require Western Skryim and Base Game content. And she wants later releases like Ring of the Pale Order to only require Western Skyrim and the new zone dlc you just purchased.
So Ring of the Pale Order would drop from 3 separate purchases (Wrothgar, Markarth, and Western Skyrim) to 2 separate purchases (Markarth and Western Skyrim)
And the mythics that released with Greymoor only requires 1 purchase, Greymoor. So Malacath's Band of Brutality would only require Greymoor to be purchased and not Greymoor and Wrothgar.
She's fine with the non-mythic items being locked behind the dlc paywall because those leads can only be acquired in those zones. So Anvil of Old Orsinium would be fine deopping from Wrothgar. And they are fun bonus items that enchance the skill line, rather than the selling point of it.
Basically she views the point of the Antiquity system for most players to be to get the mythic item and not scrying for it's own sake. So she wanted the initial mythic items (and the mythic items alone) to be restriced only to base game+Western Skyrim.
The only problem I have with that is that that's not what we were told, and it wasn't implied anywhere either. We were sold the method for getting the rewards, not the rewards. Just like Jewelry Crafting. Any expectations beyond that are on the player, and misconceptions about what they were buying are not the fault of the game, unless they specifically state something to the contrary. Since it's a select few viewing it this way, instead of how a lot of others see it, then it's not advertising that's the fault. We all saw the same stuff. Some just wanted it to be something it wasn't.
I mean it's not how the major gear of a zone was sold ever before. So thinking the purchase requirements would be the same as every other gear release wasn't some baseless assumption.
It probably should have explicitly been mentioned that mythic gear in particular could come from anywhere in Tamriel. The antiquities were said to but I don't recall Mythic items being stated as such, and those were highlighted as a selling point of Western Skyrim.
I just assumed mythics would work like all the other antiquities did though, and that they'd be found all over Tamriel. Which I thought might be a cool way to revitalize old content. So I expected them to work the way they did and am glad they do. But, my guess was just as much of an assumption as hers based on both of us making assumptions about similar content. That mine turned out to be the correct one doesn't make it any less of an assumption. Hers was based on just as much reason as mine.
I personally find mine to be a bit more reasonable just because my assumption was based on details of the new system they were highlighting and not on old information about how other systems work, but she's not coming out of left field here. And ZOS could have done a better job explaining that part.
Except it wasn't a gear release, it was a skill line release, and assorted items, including gear, are on the menu for scrying. I too expected the really good stuff to be scattered all over, and I'd have been surprised if it hadn't been.
I wasn't surprised that it was scattered. after all psijic skill line required us to go all over the base game. what I was surprised about was that compound leads specifically required non related DLC's to complete.
and it annoys me on a principle that it erodes the idea they are selling that subscription is optional, that you can just get content peace mill and when you get a particular piece of content, you can enjoy all that it has to offer without having to buy additional stuff. that is no longer true. and yes it bothers me. on principle.dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***2 -
spartaxoxoâœâœâœâœâœ
âœâœâœâœâœrobertthebard wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »robertthebard wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »So is your expectation that they should never release any antiquities for any future content zones? Because that seems a little ridiculous. Just because Greymoor had antiquities, doesn't mean Markarth, or Blackwood shouldn't.
Man I'm getting frustrated reading these responses and I don't even agree with her.
She doesn't expect them to release items only in Western Skyrim/base game. She wanted the initial Mythic items to only require Western Skryim and Base Game content. And she wants later releases like Ring of the Pale Order to only require Western Skyrim and the new zone dlc you just purchased.
So Ring of the Pale Order would drop from 3 separate purchases (Wrothgar, Markarth, and Western Skyrim) to 2 separate purchases (Markarth and Western Skyrim)
And the mythics that released with Greymoor only requires 1 purchase, Greymoor. So Malacath's Band of Brutality would only require Greymoor to be purchased and not Greymoor and Wrothgar.
She's fine with the non-mythic items being locked behind the dlc paywall because those leads can only be acquired in those zones. So Anvil of Old Orsinium would be fine deopping from Wrothgar. And they are fun bonus items that enchance the skill line, rather than the selling point of it.
Basically she views the point of the Antiquity system for most players to be to get the mythic item and not scrying for it's own sake. So she wanted the initial mythic items (and the mythic items alone) to be restriced only to base game+Western Skyrim.
The only problem I have with that is that that's not what we were told, and it wasn't implied anywhere either. We were sold the method for getting the rewards, not the rewards. Just like Jewelry Crafting. Any expectations beyond that are on the player, and misconceptions about what they were buying are not the fault of the game, unless they specifically state something to the contrary. Since it's a select few viewing it this way, instead of how a lot of others see it, then it's not advertising that's the fault. We all saw the same stuff. Some just wanted it to be something it wasn't.
I mean it's not how the major gear of a zone was sold ever before. So thinking the purchase requirements would be the same as every other gear release wasn't some baseless assumption.
It probably should have explicitly been mentioned that mythic gear in particular could come from anywhere in Tamriel. The antiquities were said to but I don't recall Mythic items being stated as such, and those were highlighted as a selling point of Western Skyrim.
I just assumed mythics would work like all the other antiquities did though, and that they'd be found all over Tamriel. Which I thought might be a cool way to revitalize old content. So I expected them to work the way they did and am glad they do. But, my guess was just as much of an assumption as hers based on both of us making assumptions about similar content. That mine turned out to be the correct one doesn't make it any less of an assumption. Hers was based on just as much reason as mine.
I personally find mine to be a bit more reasonable just because my assumption was based on details of the new system they were highlighting and not on old information about how other systems work, but she's not coming out of left field here. And ZOS could have done a better job explaining that part.
Except it wasn't a gear release, it was a skill line release, and assorted items, including gear, are on the menu for scrying. I too expected the really good stuff to be scattered all over, and I'd have been surprised if it hadn't been.
Mythic gear was explicitly previewed as a gear release. I too expected it to be scattered all over Tamriel. But it was absolutely highlighted as a special gear release of Western Skyrim.
I have zero issue with the way the monetized it. I like the way they monetized it. I think, from a pure lore perspective, it's awesome to have it all over Tamriel and not just the base zone. Ofc I'd want an artifact of Malacath to be in part from Wrothgar. Loved everything about antiquities.
Still they could have been a bit more clear in the marketing material specifically because gear releases never worked that way before.
Edited by spartaxoxo on April 1, 2021 11:58PM2 -
robertthebardâœâœâœâœâœrobertthebard wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »robertthebard wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »So is your expectation that they should never release any antiquities for any future content zones? Because that seems a little ridiculous. Just because Greymoor had antiquities, doesn't mean Markarth, or Blackwood shouldn't.
Man I'm getting frustrated reading these responses and I don't even agree with her.
She doesn't expect them to release items only in Western Skyrim/base game. She wanted the initial Mythic items to only require Western Skryim and Base Game content. And she wants later releases like Ring of the Pale Order to only require Western Skyrim and the new zone dlc you just purchased.
So Ring of the Pale Order would drop from 3 separate purchases (Wrothgar, Markarth, and Western Skyrim) to 2 separate purchases (Markarth and Western Skyrim)
And the mythics that released with Greymoor only requires 1 purchase, Greymoor. So Malacath's Band of Brutality would only require Greymoor to be purchased and not Greymoor and Wrothgar.
She's fine with the non-mythic items being locked behind the dlc paywall because those leads can only be acquired in those zones. So Anvil of Old Orsinium would be fine deopping from Wrothgar. And they are fun bonus items that enchance the skill line, rather than the selling point of it.
Basically she views the point of the Antiquity system for most players to be to get the mythic item and not scrying for it's own sake. So she wanted the initial mythic items (and the mythic items alone) to be restriced only to base game+Western Skyrim.
The only problem I have with that is that that's not what we were told, and it wasn't implied anywhere either. We were sold the method for getting the rewards, not the rewards. Just like Jewelry Crafting. Any expectations beyond that are on the player, and misconceptions about what they were buying are not the fault of the game, unless they specifically state something to the contrary. Since it's a select few viewing it this way, instead of how a lot of others see it, then it's not advertising that's the fault. We all saw the same stuff. Some just wanted it to be something it wasn't.
I mean it's not how the major gear of a zone was sold ever before. So thinking the purchase requirements would be the same as every other gear release wasn't some baseless assumption.
It probably should have explicitly been mentioned that mythic gear in particular could come from anywhere in Tamriel. The antiquities were said to but I don't recall Mythic items being stated as such, and those were highlighted as a selling point of Western Skyrim.
I just assumed mythics would work like all the other antiquities did though, and that they'd be found all over Tamriel. Which I thought might be a cool way to revitalize old content. So I expected them to work the way they did and am glad they do. But, my guess was just as much of an assumption as hers based on both of us making assumptions about similar content. That mine turned out to be the correct one doesn't make it any less of an assumption. Hers was based on just as much reason as mine.
I personally find mine to be a bit more reasonable just because my assumption was based on details of the new system they were highlighting and not on old information about how other systems work, but she's not coming out of left field here. And ZOS could have done a better job explaining that part.
Except it wasn't a gear release, it was a skill line release, and assorted items, including gear, are on the menu for scrying. I too expected the really good stuff to be scattered all over, and I'd have been surprised if it hadn't been.
I wasn't surprised that it was scattered. after all psijic skill line required us to go all over the base game. what I was surprised about was that compound leads specifically required non related DLC's to complete.
and it annoys me on a principle that it erodes the idea they are selling that subscription is optional, that you can just get content peace mill and when you get a particular piece of content, you can enjoy all that it has to offer without having to buy additional stuff. that is no longer true. and yes it bothers me. on principle.
That was never true though. Since there is a release, and several DLCs, and it's been this way for how long now?spartaxoxo wrote: »robertthebard wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »robertthebard wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »So is your expectation that they should never release any antiquities for any future content zones? Because that seems a little ridiculous. Just because Greymoor had antiquities, doesn't mean Markarth, or Blackwood shouldn't.
Man I'm getting frustrated reading these responses and I don't even agree with her.
She doesn't expect them to release items only in Western Skyrim/base game. She wanted the initial Mythic items to only require Western Skryim and Base Game content. And she wants later releases like Ring of the Pale Order to only require Western Skyrim and the new zone dlc you just purchased.
So Ring of the Pale Order would drop from 3 separate purchases (Wrothgar, Markarth, and Western Skyrim) to 2 separate purchases (Markarth and Western Skyrim)
And the mythics that released with Greymoor only requires 1 purchase, Greymoor. So Malacath's Band of Brutality would only require Greymoor to be purchased and not Greymoor and Wrothgar.
She's fine with the non-mythic items being locked behind the dlc paywall because those leads can only be acquired in those zones. So Anvil of Old Orsinium would be fine deopping from Wrothgar. And they are fun bonus items that enchance the skill line, rather than the selling point of it.
Basically she views the point of the Antiquity system for most players to be to get the mythic item and not scrying for it's own sake. So she wanted the initial mythic items (and the mythic items alone) to be restriced only to base game+Western Skyrim.
The only problem I have with that is that that's not what we were told, and it wasn't implied anywhere either. We were sold the method for getting the rewards, not the rewards. Just like Jewelry Crafting. Any expectations beyond that are on the player, and misconceptions about what they were buying are not the fault of the game, unless they specifically state something to the contrary. Since it's a select few viewing it this way, instead of how a lot of others see it, then it's not advertising that's the fault. We all saw the same stuff. Some just wanted it to be something it wasn't.
I mean it's not how the major gear of a zone was sold ever before. So thinking the purchase requirements would be the same as every other gear release wasn't some baseless assumption.
It probably should have explicitly been mentioned that mythic gear in particular could come from anywhere in Tamriel. The antiquities were said to but I don't recall Mythic items being stated as such, and those were highlighted as a selling point of Western Skyrim.
I just assumed mythics would work like all the other antiquities did though, and that they'd be found all over Tamriel. Which I thought might be a cool way to revitalize old content. So I expected them to work the way they did and am glad they do. But, my guess was just as much of an assumption as hers based on both of us making assumptions about similar content. That mine turned out to be the correct one doesn't make it any less of an assumption. Hers was based on just as much reason as mine.
I personally find mine to be a bit more reasonable just because my assumption was based on details of the new system they were highlighting and not on old information about how other systems work, but she's not coming out of left field here. And ZOS could have done a better job explaining that part.
Except it wasn't a gear release, it was a skill line release, and assorted items, including gear, are on the menu for scrying. I too expected the really good stuff to be scattered all over, and I'd have been surprised if it hadn't been.
Mythic gear was explicitly previewed as a gear release. I too expected it to be scattered all over Tamriel. But it was absolutely highlighted as a special gear release of Western Skyrim.
I have zero issue with the way the monetized it. I like the way they monetized it. I think, from a pure lore perspective, it's awesome to have it all over Tamriel and not just the base zone. Ofc I'd want an artifact of Malacath to be in part from Wrothgar. Loved everything about antiquities.
Still they could have been a bit more clear in the marketing material specifically because gear releases never worked that way before.
Was it advertised exclusively to Western Skyrim, or as part of the expansion? I'll call out some shady business practices, I've quit here because CS told me that a problem in game was on my end, and just closed a ticket, when it clearly wasn't on my end.0 -
spartaxoxoâœâœâœâœâœ
âœâœâœâœâœrobertthebard wrote: »robertthebard wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »robertthebard wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »So is your expectation that they should never release any antiquities for any future content zones? Because that seems a little ridiculous. Just because Greymoor had antiquities, doesn't mean Markarth, or Blackwood shouldn't.
Man I'm getting frustrated reading these responses and I don't even agree with her.
She doesn't expect them to release items only in Western Skyrim/base game. She wanted the initial Mythic items to only require Western Skryim and Base Game content. And she wants later releases like Ring of the Pale Order to only require Western Skyrim and the new zone dlc you just purchased.
So Ring of the Pale Order would drop from 3 separate purchases (Wrothgar, Markarth, and Western Skyrim) to 2 separate purchases (Markarth and Western Skyrim)
And the mythics that released with Greymoor only requires 1 purchase, Greymoor. So Malacath's Band of Brutality would only require Greymoor to be purchased and not Greymoor and Wrothgar.
She's fine with the non-mythic items being locked behind the dlc paywall because those leads can only be acquired in those zones. So Anvil of Old Orsinium would be fine deopping from Wrothgar. And they are fun bonus items that enchance the skill line, rather than the selling point of it.
Basically she views the point of the Antiquity system for most players to be to get the mythic item and not scrying for it's own sake. So she wanted the initial mythic items (and the mythic items alone) to be restriced only to base game+Western Skyrim.
The only problem I have with that is that that's not what we were told, and it wasn't implied anywhere either. We were sold the method for getting the rewards, not the rewards. Just like Jewelry Crafting. Any expectations beyond that are on the player, and misconceptions about what they were buying are not the fault of the game, unless they specifically state something to the contrary. Since it's a select few viewing it this way, instead of how a lot of others see it, then it's not advertising that's the fault. We all saw the same stuff. Some just wanted it to be something it wasn't.
I mean it's not how the major gear of a zone was sold ever before. So thinking the purchase requirements would be the same as every other gear release wasn't some baseless assumption.
It probably should have explicitly been mentioned that mythic gear in particular could come from anywhere in Tamriel. The antiquities were said to but I don't recall Mythic items being stated as such, and those were highlighted as a selling point of Western Skyrim.
I just assumed mythics would work like all the other antiquities did though, and that they'd be found all over Tamriel. Which I thought might be a cool way to revitalize old content. So I expected them to work the way they did and am glad they do. But, my guess was just as much of an assumption as hers based on both of us making assumptions about similar content. That mine turned out to be the correct one doesn't make it any less of an assumption. Hers was based on just as much reason as mine.
I personally find mine to be a bit more reasonable just because my assumption was based on details of the new system they were highlighting and not on old information about how other systems work, but she's not coming out of left field here. And ZOS could have done a better job explaining that part.
Except it wasn't a gear release, it was a skill line release, and assorted items, including gear, are on the menu for scrying. I too expected the really good stuff to be scattered all over, and I'd have been surprised if it hadn't been.
I wasn't surprised that it was scattered. after all psijic skill line required us to go all over the base game. what I was surprised about was that compound leads specifically required non related DLC's to complete.
and it annoys me on a principle that it erodes the idea they are selling that subscription is optional, that you can just get content peace mill and when you get a particular piece of content, you can enjoy all that it has to offer without having to buy additional stuff. that is no longer true. and yes it bothers me. on principle.
That was never true though. Since there is a release, and several DLCs, and it's been this way for how long now?spartaxoxo wrote: »robertthebard wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »robertthebard wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »So is your expectation that they should never release any antiquities for any future content zones? Because that seems a little ridiculous. Just because Greymoor had antiquities, doesn't mean Markarth, or Blackwood shouldn't.
Man I'm getting frustrated reading these responses and I don't even agree with her.
She doesn't expect them to release items only in Western Skyrim/base game. She wanted the initial Mythic items to only require Western Skryim and Base Game content. And she wants later releases like Ring of the Pale Order to only require Western Skyrim and the new zone dlc you just purchased.
So Ring of the Pale Order would drop from 3 separate purchases (Wrothgar, Markarth, and Western Skyrim) to 2 separate purchases (Markarth and Western Skyrim)
And the mythics that released with Greymoor only requires 1 purchase, Greymoor. So Malacath's Band of Brutality would only require Greymoor to be purchased and not Greymoor and Wrothgar.
She's fine with the non-mythic items being locked behind the dlc paywall because those leads can only be acquired in those zones. So Anvil of Old Orsinium would be fine deopping from Wrothgar. And they are fun bonus items that enchance the skill line, rather than the selling point of it.
Basically she views the point of the Antiquity system for most players to be to get the mythic item and not scrying for it's own sake. So she wanted the initial mythic items (and the mythic items alone) to be restriced only to base game+Western Skyrim.
The only problem I have with that is that that's not what we were told, and it wasn't implied anywhere either. We were sold the method for getting the rewards, not the rewards. Just like Jewelry Crafting. Any expectations beyond that are on the player, and misconceptions about what they were buying are not the fault of the game, unless they specifically state something to the contrary. Since it's a select few viewing it this way, instead of how a lot of others see it, then it's not advertising that's the fault. We all saw the same stuff. Some just wanted it to be something it wasn't.
I mean it's not how the major gear of a zone was sold ever before. So thinking the purchase requirements would be the same as every other gear release wasn't some baseless assumption.
It probably should have explicitly been mentioned that mythic gear in particular could come from anywhere in Tamriel. The antiquities were said to but I don't recall Mythic items being stated as such, and those were highlighted as a selling point of Western Skyrim.
I just assumed mythics would work like all the other antiquities did though, and that they'd be found all over Tamriel. Which I thought might be a cool way to revitalize old content. So I expected them to work the way they did and am glad they do. But, my guess was just as much of an assumption as hers based on both of us making assumptions about similar content. That mine turned out to be the correct one doesn't make it any less of an assumption. Hers was based on just as much reason as mine.
I personally find mine to be a bit more reasonable just because my assumption was based on details of the new system they were highlighting and not on old information about how other systems work, but she's not coming out of left field here. And ZOS could have done a better job explaining that part.
Except it wasn't a gear release, it was a skill line release, and assorted items, including gear, are on the menu for scrying. I too expected the really good stuff to be scattered all over, and I'd have been surprised if it hadn't been.
Mythic gear was explicitly previewed as a gear release. I too expected it to be scattered all over Tamriel. But it was absolutely highlighted as a special gear release of Western Skyrim.
I have zero issue with the way the monetized it. I like the way they monetized it. I think, from a pure lore perspective, it's awesome to have it all over Tamriel and not just the base zone. Ofc I'd want an artifact of Malacath to be in part from Wrothgar. Loved everything about antiquities.
Still they could have been a bit more clear in the marketing material specifically because gear releases never worked that way before.
Was it advertised exclusively to Western Skyrim, or as part of the expansion? I'll call out some shady business practices, I've quit here because CS told me that a problem in game was on my end, and just closed a ticket, when it clearly wasn't on my end.
It wasn't advertised as exclusive to Western Skyrim. But it should have still been made clear because none of the other gear has worked that way.
Let's put it another way. Every Sunday for the past 5 years you went to an ice cream parlor every Sunday and got the Sunday special, which was a banana sundae. Then one Sunday, they charge you for a root beer float. Well the Sunday Special doesn't say "banana sundae" but you'd still be rightfully miffed that they changed it without informing you.
When companies do stuff a certain way every year, they should tell their customers when they are gonna mix it up. It's scummy not too even if it doesn't fit the legal definition of false advertising. The customer has a reasonable expectation that they will be informed of changes in policies that effect what they are paying for.
All chapter gear prior to Greymoor only required the purchase of the new chapter. This one did not, with instead vague descriptions being offered that could be intepreted a number of ways.Edited by spartaxoxo on April 2, 2021 4:16AM0 -
Linaleahâœâœâœâœâœ
âœâœâœâœâœvague wording indeed.
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/58113
do they say that there will be antiquities in nearly every zone? yes.
are they saying that there will be more antiquities added with new zones? yes
are they advertising mythic gear as part of rewards? yes
are the specifying that mythic gear will require ownership of the DLC, not just base game and expansion? no.
its not scam per se but it IS misleading advertising. you know of the gotcha game kind. where you get invested in something only to realize that in order to complete it - you need to pay extra.
DLCs generally are self contained. even when they are a part of the storyline - they are self contained. though... i supposed I guess i should have seen the writing on the wall with Elsweyr with house and pet that require both chapter and subsequent DLC's to complete. but that was pet and house. with Greymoor they have graduated to gear.
its that gradual escalation of just how far they are going to take monetanization. its so small, you are ok with it... until its less and less small. i mean.. I was a victim of that before. "its ok if crates have these rare mounts, after all we can just buy them with gems" and then.. woops. radiant apex. oh but with this new crate you can buy the radiant apex mounts! I bought 3 packs of 15 crates (though exchange if anyone is wondering since i mentioned not buying crowns anymore). I got enough gems for half of the cheapest apex mount. its gradual until suddenly you are face with a game that nickel and dimes you worse then SWTOR does. I would rather ESO doesn't get to that point. its not there. yetEdited by Linaleah on April 2, 2021 4:58AMdirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***0 -
AinSophâœâœâœâœâœWait until...uhh..."googles" May 26 when it's Greymoor's anniversary because it may or may come to the CS.0 -
hands0medevilâœâœâœâœâœJust wait until zos put more and more dps/healing bots, sorry I mean companions, in crown store. I'm really curious about how creatively zos will encourage players to buy new OP companions. It seems they won't encourage us with new OP sets after the whole proc sets mess.0 -
AinSophâœâœâœâœâœhands0medevil wrote: »Just wait until zos put more and more dps/healing bots, sorry I mean companions, in crown store. I'm really curious about how creatively zos will encourage players to buy new OP companions. It seems they won't encourage us with new OP sets after the whole proc sets mess.
I assume looks and possible Racial Passives if they even affect companions.0 -
robertthebardâœâœâœâœâœvague wording indeed.
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/58113
do they say that there will be antiquities in nearly every zone? yes.
are they saying that there will be more antiquities added with new zones? yes
are they advertising mythic gear as part of rewards? yes
are the specifying that mythic gear will require ownership of the DLC, not just base game and expansion? no.
its not scam per se but it IS misleading advertising. you know of the gotcha game kind. where you get invested in something only to realize that in order to complete it - you need to pay extra.
DLCs generally are self contained. even when they are a part of the storyline - they are self contained. though... i supposed I guess i should have seen the writing on the wall with Elsweyr with house and pet that require both chapter and subsequent DLC's to complete. but that was pet and house. with Greymoor they have graduated to gear.
its that gradual escalation of just how far they are going to take monetanization. its so small, you are ok with it... until its less and less small. i mean.. I was a victim of that before. "its ok if crates have these rare mounts, after all we can just buy them with gems" and then.. woops. radiant apex. oh but with this new crate you can buy the radiant apex mounts! I bought 3 packs of 15 crates (though exchange if anyone is wondering since i mentioned not buying crowns anymore). I got enough gems for half of the cheapest apex mount. its gradual until suddenly you are face with a game that nickel and dimes you worse then SWTOR does. I would rather ESO doesn't get to that point. its not there. yet
Except that, in order to complete the story, you don't, other than DLC associated with it, which is par for the course. You don't have to buy the rest of the associated DLCs in order to scry for things, unless you want to complete that Mythic piece. Are there other Mythic pieces that aren't found in Western Skyrim? Will there be more Mythic pieces to come? Did they put pieces in other maps, including other DLC? Yes. Is this "wrong" or "shady"? No. No more shady than it will be when they add more stuff to it later, in future DLC or expansions, assuming they do.
I'm feeling sort of disoriented, as I'm having a similar conversation in the GW2 forums, only it's based around P2W. It's funny what gets lumped into that category when a player isn't happy about something. But they make their money on these DLC releases and expansions, or a portion of it anyway. Encouraging the purchase is fine. Especially since the gear in question, while desirable, isn't required. You can play w/out it. I do. I haven't even been bothered to scry for any of it, yet. I'm probably not the only one who, owning all the DLC and expansions to date, hasn't been bothered to get it either.0