The real problem with combat in Overland
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WhereArtThouVampires✭✭✭✭Goregrinder wrote: »WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »
I've also known people who like polka music and yodeling. That's not proof that everyone likes polka and yodeling.
I have literally never seen someone quit ESO for it being too hard.
I doubt a little bit of challenge in the overland will cause people to quit. In fact, it'd only make more people want to stay.
The issue with your comparison is that there's a ton of people that want a harder overland. So much so that threads like these are pretty common.Edited by WhereArtThouVampires on March 24, 2021 8:42PM5 -
Skykaiser_Ọlọrun✭✭✭What's crazy is that people keep acting like we're saying that every new player should be dragged kicking & screaming into Veteran content.
Options, people. That's all anyone is asking for.
Look at the Hadum or Arsha servers in Black Desert Online. Something like that. For the people who want it, it's there. For the people who don't, they can ignore it and carry on. Everybody wins.
There's literally no reason to be against this other than spite.
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Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭It’s too basic. It’s not about how much damage is dealt, or how much health they have. It’s the tactics.
The general enemy populace simply isn’t very capable and are made for the lowest common denominator.
- They’re too slow
- They don’t have many abilities
- They don’t have a hierarchy so all of them are equally difficult & dangerous. (a Bear or Draugr are as dangerous as a normal Bandit)
- They don’t change tactics when health is low
- they’re always in clusters of three
- their notice range of sight is very small
All in all, It’s almost a walking simulator.
You don’t have to think when fighting them. Which is a flaw for Overland and the Story.
When you’re thinking - you are engaged, if you’re not thinking you’ll get bored and play something else.
Do I have the perfect solution for this problem? No.
I am merely pointing out what the issue really is.
It’s not that enemies lack health or don’t do enough damage, it’s that they don’t do enough period. They’re basically neutered.
Making the majority of Overland a bore, and the saving grace is the storytelling - Except when it comes to Main Story Bosses, those are always a major letdown that really undermine the narratives they build up.
Only repeatable activities get interesting gameplay mechanics and tactics.
Please read the original OP and tell me that no one is asking for that? The original post has been edited several times so I will just leave this here. I can no longer participate in this thread as it's appears to be going in circles. Brainstorming is the very definition of problem solving not going in circles.
1. At no point in my original post do I suggest any kind of solution, what wording in there suggests that I am asking for changes that are enforced on everyone?
I’ve pointed out a problem nothing else. I literally said I don’t have a solution.
A brainstorming session is one where a group collectively works to come up with a solution.
My original post doesn’t propose a solution but several people in this thread have proposed different solutions.
The only reason it keeps going in circles is because you keep putting words in people‘s mouths.
2. There are two edits that clarify how champion points and gear are not the problem.1 -
ghost_bg_ESO✭✭✭✭So at the moment there is "make overland harder" i can think for two ways to be implemented either on mobs is given more resistance and health or characters itself are nerfed - in both cases there will be complaining up the sky. If it is resistance and health on mobs will make it not pleasant for new players, if it is nerfing, well we had it just before two weeks for 10 -15% decrease and it was "end of the world"...
And we have "make bots smarter", like real players - as someone said we have PvP(somehow...).
We have "difficulty slider" which will be based again on nerfing character (see first paragraph if forgotten). And mentioned scrolls or pots that can nerf characters are at the same boat.
We have "make veteran overland instances or zones" - which i don't even know if it has to be commented considering curent state of the servers, as they barely hold in the moment and adding more load on them as new mirrored vet realm will just kill them (for reference MYM and state of the dungeons in the same time or cyrodil and pts).
Even rewards are variating between zero and as much as possible...
There are good amount of demand for system that works to be changed
and nothing that developer can read and say "yah, i can think about it." .
*I don't even understand the reason for overland to be constant Crypt of Hearts (for example)...
and are daedras and mobs rule the realm or there is balance,
wasn't the point of so many saving-the-day world to be more peaceful.2 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Skykaiser_Ọlọrun wrote: »What's crazy is that people keep acting like we're saying that every new player should be dragged kicking & screaming into Veteran content.
Options, people. That's all anyone is asking for.
Look at the Hadum or Arsha servers in Black Desert Online. Something like that. For the people who want it, it's there. For the people who don't, they can ignore it and carry on. Everybody wins.
There's literally no reason to be against this other than spite.
I do not want them spending development dollars on wasted content.
And the developers don’t want underused servers as it gives the impression of a dying game. So let’s pretend you are right (which you are not, and I will get to that) then the non vet areas will look abandoned. And development money goes down the drain if you are incorrect.
And let’s look at the side effects. Less people to help with world bosses and harrowstorms/dragons etc. Less people in a zone for people to sell things to, Less vet players willing to give advice to new players.
And let’s look at this from a different angle.
Do players who know the wayshrine in one vet level automatically know it in the other one? Does the the zone list now double to include the vet version of each zone? What if some players feel the base zone is too easy but the new vet zone is too hard, are they deserving of a third middle zone? If the new vet zone is too easy for some, do they deserve a fourth difficulty?
The best way to make “easy” content difficult is to put limitations on yourself. Turn off your ultimate. Use weapons your character is not proficient in. No cp, play in white gear. Whatever. You have the perfect difficulty slider, what you do yourself.
I know many people who refuse to step in dungeons. We have calls to allow eso+ members to block dlc dungeons because groups are under equipped to handle them. We have complaints about low or “fake” dps in dungeons. Have you tried doing the overland content as a tank? It’s painfully slow as it is. (Talk about making it difficult on yourself. )
The amount of players who will use these vet zones is much smaller then you think.8 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭SeaArcanist wrote: »if people want a challenge, people need to challenge themselves. thats whats wrong with the world nowadays. nobody challenges themselves!
if you want content to be harder, you have the ability to make it harder. remove all champ points, use lower leveled gear. etc
we all have that ability to make things a challenge.
The “Self Gimp” Argument has been addressed multiple times. Even in the OP.
It’s not an effective solution.
Then they really don’t want challenging combat, do they?
Self gimping isn’t challenging, it’s not engaging, it’s not fun - it’s just tedious.
Saying that people don’t really want a challenge if they don’t want to self gimp - is disingenuous.
numerous people have explained why a self applied Nerf doesn’t solve the problem.3 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SeaArcanist wrote: »if people want a challenge, people need to challenge themselves. thats whats wrong with the world nowadays. nobody challenges themselves!
if you want content to be harder, you have the ability to make it harder. remove all champ points, use lower leveled gear. etc
we all have that ability to make things a challenge.
The “Self Gimp” Argument has been addressed multiple times. Even in the OP.
It’s not an effective solution.
Then they really don’t want challenging combat, do they?
Self gimping isn’t challenging, it’s not engaging, it’s not fun - it’s just tedious.
Saying that people don’t really want a challenge if they don’t want to self gimp - is disingenuous.
numerous people have explained why a self applied Nerf doesn’t solve the problem.
Except it 100% does solve it. It just shows that difficult content is not really the aim.
If vet players want difficult content they have two solo arenas not available to the casual crowd. They have tons of dlc dungeons and hard mode trials that again casual players don’t see.
I would claim there is a greater audience to make “easy”, solo, casual friendly, versions of this content, then to make difficult versions of the “easy” zones.6 -
Raegwyr✭✭✭✭SeaArcanist wrote: »if people want a challenge, people need to challenge themselves. thats whats wrong with the world nowadays. nobody challenges themselves!
if you want content to be harder, you have the ability to make it harder. remove all champ points, use lower leveled gear. etc
we all have that ability to make things a challenge.
The “Self Gimp” Argument has been addressed multiple times. Even in the OP.
It’s not an effective solution.
Then they really don’t want challenging combat, do they?
Self gimping isn’t challenging, it’s not engaging, it’s not fun - it’s just tedious.
Saying that people don’t really want a challenge if they don’t want to self gimp - is disingenuous.
numerous people have explained why a self applied Nerf doesn’t solve the problem.
Except it 100% does solve it. It just shows that difficult content is not really the aim.
If vet players want difficult content they have two solo arenas not available to the casual crowd. They have tons of dlc dungeons and hard mode trials that again casual players don’t see.
I would claim there is a greater audience to make “easy”, solo, casual friendly, versions of this content, then to make difficult versions of the “easy” zones.
I find overland stupidly easy on 10 lvl char with white found gear, no cp and two skills without passives.
How can I gimp myself even more to really find this difficulty you talking about in overland?
Stop pretending that your voice is the truth and that harder overland is "wasted resources". No, harder overland is not only for GS ppl, most of my friends do quest lines max once to know the story but feel no need to go back as there is no challenge there and overall difficulty makes this content dull.
I have a lot of guildmates which even stopped doing quests at all because they feel ludonarrative dissonance when they are questing, story is telling them about this big bad guy but in actual game every enemy, even bosses, dies in couple seconds and hit like wet noodles.6 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SeaArcanist wrote: »if people want a challenge, people need to challenge themselves. thats whats wrong with the world nowadays. nobody challenges themselves!
if you want content to be harder, you have the ability to make it harder. remove all champ points, use lower leveled gear. etc
we all have that ability to make things a challenge.
The “Self Gimp” Argument has been addressed multiple times. Even in the OP.
It’s not an effective solution.
Then they really don’t want challenging combat, do they?
Self gimping isn’t challenging, it’s not engaging, it’s not fun - it’s just tedious.
Saying that people don’t really want a challenge if they don’t want to self gimp - is disingenuous.
numerous people have explained why a self applied Nerf doesn’t solve the problem.
Except it 100% does solve it. It just shows that difficult content is not really the aim.
If vet players want difficult content they have two solo arenas not available to the casual crowd. They have tons of dlc dungeons and hard mode trials that again casual players don’t see.
I would claim there is a greater audience to make “easy”, solo, casual friendly, versions of this content, then to make difficult versions of the “easy” zones.
I find overland stupidly easy on 10 lvl char with white found gear, no cp and two skills without passives.
How can I gimp myself even more to really find this difficulty you talking about in overland?
Stop pretending that your voice is the truth and that harder overland is "wasted resources". No, harder overland is not only for GS ppl, most of my friends do quest lines max once to know the story but feel no need to go back as there is no challenge there and overall difficulty makes this content dull.
I have a lot of guildmates which even stopped doing quests at all because they feel ludonarrative dissonance when they are questing, story is telling them about this big bad guy but in actual game every enemy, even bosses, dies in couple seconds and hit like wet noodles.
You should tell your friends about all the vet dungeons, trials and solo arenas. Special content only they get to see but untouched by casual players.5 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@BlueRaven
Let me put it this way. Speaking from experience.
A self gimp in ESO Overland is like fighting with one hand tied behind your back and still Not having any trouble, the fight might be longer but I’m never in any danger or risking anything.
It’s just tedious.
At no point does the fight actually encourage me to think, as enemies have extremely limited tactics, even as a group, and are very slow.
I’ve done the self-gimp and pulled 8+ enemies at a time.
People are telling you that they have tried this method and it hasn’t worked.
That is very different than fights that put me in a position to use full rotations and actually think about what I’m doing.
Like Solo Arenas3 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭SeaArcanist wrote: »if people want a challenge, people need to challenge themselves. thats whats wrong with the world nowadays. nobody challenges themselves!
if you want content to be harder, you have the ability to make it harder. remove all champ points, use lower leveled gear. etc
we all have that ability to make things a challenge.
The “Self Gimp” Argument has been addressed multiple times. Even in the OP.
It’s not an effective solution.
Then they really don’t want challenging combat, do they?
Self gimping isn’t challenging, it’s not engaging, it’s not fun - it’s just tedious.
Saying that people don’t really want a challenge if they don’t want to self gimp - is disingenuous.
numerous people have explained why a self applied Nerf doesn’t solve the problem.
Except it 100% does solve it. It just shows that difficult content is not really the aim.
If vet players want difficult content they have two solo arenas not available to the casual crowd. They have tons of dlc dungeons and hard mode trials that again casual players don’t see.
I would claim there is a greater audience to make “easy”, solo, casual friendly, versions of this content, then to make difficult versions of the “easy” zones.
I find overland stupidly easy on 10 lvl char with white found gear, no cp and two skills without passives.
How can I gimp myself even more to really find this difficulty you talking about in overland?
Stop pretending that your voice is the truth and that harder overland is "wasted resources". No, harder overland is not only for GS ppl, most of my friends do quest lines max once to know the story but feel no need to go back as there is no challenge there and overall difficulty makes this content dull.
I have a lot of guildmates which even stopped doing quests at all because they feel ludonarrative dissonance when they are questing, story is telling them about this big bad guy but in actual game every enemy, even bosses, dies in couple seconds and hit like wet noodles.
You should tell your friends about all the vet dungeons, trials and solo arenas. Special content only they get to see but untouched by casual players.
1. It is on the game to engage the players consistently. If you can’t keep players engaged through overland content then don’t expect them to stick around long enough to get to endgame.
2. Take into account what many of these people are asking is for more engaging gameplay for the story and questing.
Many of us really like the story unfortunately the extremely average and mediocre encounters in the story take all the wind out of the sails.
Overland is across-the-board for the lowest common denominator and often just feels like a walking simulator. We’re saying that we would like it to feel less like that.
It’s not that we’re looking in the wrong places, it’s that we would like the 95% rest of the content to also be engaging. To actually try to match up to our skill level.2 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Hard core players have access to all areas of the pve spectrum. Casual players only have the overland zones. Yet still you want to make life harder for them by depriving them of server population to sell things, get people for group events, or even to ask a question expecting a knowledgeable answer.
Again with the elitism argument.
The majority of players who participate in endgame content are casual players, or were once casual players.
I play casually and I participate in endgame content. I play solo casually most of the time and I still find the story gameplay experience to be mediocre and overall disappointing - and it undermines the writing.
The only reason I am playing at all this year is because it is Black marsh themed and I’ve been waiting for an Argonian chapter.
Yes, I do enjoy endgame group content. But I would also like my solo story Overland gameplay experience to be enjoyable.Ok I get it you don’t like the overland zones. “Too easy.” And casual players don’t like dungeons, trials, or arenas. So... Should we make easy solo versions of vet trials, dungeons, and arenas?
I honestly wouldn’t care if that happened.
Sadly, the developers have made their feelings on it clear with the introduction of the companion system.
Which was partly made as a way to encourage “casual players“ into trying out group content.
(You can find everything on that here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/559462/companions-a-breakdown-of-the-new-feature-by-rich-lambert/p1)
Nobody here is asking for more group content or a “group zone”
They’re asking for the overall majority of the Solo Overland content to be made enjoyable for more than just the lowest common denominator.3 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Ok I get it you don’t like the overland zones. “Too easy.” And casual players don’t like dungeons, trials, or arenas. So... Should we make easy solo versions of vet trials, dungeons, and arenas?
There is easy mode versions of trials. Its called normal, doesnt have mechanics and can be tanked by a 19k health sorc.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.3 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The elitism argument is getting tiresome.
People who play endgame, even casually, aren’t people who “have access to the whole spectrum of content” by virtue or some secret key.
They’re just people who participate in all the content, because they made basic efforts to improve their skill and progress in the game.
They ventured outside their comfort zone, that’s it.
So when they start a new character, they are also starting with a basic understanding of the gameplay, and as others have stated once you have a basic understanding of the gameplay overland becomes a cakewalk - which is a problem when the majority of content is overland.
(Edit: at no point during overland do I see a specific type of enemy and think “oh **** oh ****, I better be careful.”
The only enemy that I can recall that brings any sense of dread for overland gameplay is in the imperial city. In the sewers. The guys with flags who walk around the sewer passages)
It is a problem when the company hypes up this epic major story with this new dangerous main antagonist who presents no risk in the slightest, and whose mechanics are designed for the lowest common denominator.
No risk, no challenge, nothing that actually engages or asks anything more of a player who has a basic understanding of the gameplay.
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EditedEdited by Iccotak on March 25, 2021 12:32AM2 -
Ceejengine✭✭✭I'd agree with the OP with one caveat: Try going in solo with a new character, using NO cp. Then Overland is a challenge.
I mean, is it though? The only reason the 'difficulty' increases is because your numbers decrease. You're not navigating or fighting any differently, you're just taking more damage and dealing less damage. The amount of thinking you need to do remains the same.4 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ceejengine wrote: »I'd agree with the OP with one caveat: Try going in solo with a new character, using NO cp. Then Overland is a challenge.
I mean, is it though? The only reason the 'difficulty' increases is because your numbers decrease. You're not navigating or fighting any differently, you're just taking more damage and dealing less damage. The amount of thinking you need to do remains the same.
Exactly.
Also I am not saying that overland needs to be made more challenging and harder for my god slayer character.
What I am saying is that if you have a basic understanding of the mechanics, then overland becomes a breeze (even for a new characters without assistance & no CP) and it just becomes the safety bubble it doesn’t really ask anything of you - which leads to combat becoming very stale.
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Edit: unlike Dungeons & Trials which have progressionEdited by Iccotak on March 25, 2021 3:14AM0 -
Ceejengine✭✭✭Ceejengine wrote: »I'd agree with the OP with one caveat: Try going in solo with a new character, using NO cp. Then Overland is a challenge.
I mean, is it though? The only reason the 'difficulty' increases is because your numbers decrease. You're not navigating or fighting any differently, you're just taking more damage and dealing less damage. The amount of thinking you need to do remains the same.
Exactly.
Also I am not saying that overland needs to be made more challenging and harder for my god slayer character.
What I am saying is that if you have a basic understanding of the mechanics, then overland becomes a breeze (even for a new characters without assistance & no CP) and it just becomes the safety bubble it doesn’t really ask anything of you - which leads to combat becoming very stale.
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Edit: unlike Dungeons & Trials which have progression
Its baffling primarily because ESO combat is so action oriented. Like you can't even experience the full base mechanics of combat until you start PvPing or doing vet / trials.
My dream is really and truly an AI overhaul at some point that just gives the NPCs something unique about them. Whether it's group tactics, retreating, calling allies, or even just having a basic daily cycle.
People very often say that overland feels dead and that's because of the stagnant NPCs.
What made single player elder scrolls so immersive was its NPC behavior, and thats been thrown out because 'its an MMO'.
Just a bummer is all.1 -
WhereArtThouVampires✭✭✭✭Ceejengine wrote: »Ceejengine wrote: »I'd agree with the OP with one caveat: Try going in solo with a new character, using NO cp. Then Overland is a challenge.
I mean, is it though? The only reason the 'difficulty' increases is because your numbers decrease. You're not navigating or fighting any differently, you're just taking more damage and dealing less damage. The amount of thinking you need to do remains the same.
Exactly.
Also I am not saying that overland needs to be made more challenging and harder for my god slayer character.
What I am saying is that if you have a basic understanding of the mechanics, then overland becomes a breeze (even for a new characters without assistance & no CP) and it just becomes the safety bubble it doesn’t really ask anything of you - which leads to combat becoming very stale.
—————————————————
Edit: unlike Dungeons & Trials which have progression
Its baffling primarily because ESO combat is so action oriented. Like you can't even experience the full base mechanics of combat until you start PvPing or doing vet / trials.
My dream is really and truly an AI overhaul at some point that just gives the NPCs something unique about them. Whether it's group tactics, retreating, calling allies, or even just having a basic daily cycle.
People very often say that overland feels dead and that's because of the stagnant NPCs.
What made single player elder scrolls so immersive was its NPC behavior, and thats been thrown out because 'its an MMO'.
Just a bummer is all.
Don't forget in the Single Player games enemies weren't just re-skins of each other. Every single enemy had different stats, weaknesses, etc. Sometimes based on type.
Imagine if Undead were resistant to necrotic spells? Or flame atronachs literally being immune to fire damage? Or ghosts being very resistant to non-magical damage? This is only one layer of complexity that could easily be added to the game.1 -
WiseSky✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This is 6 pages of people talking about the problem.
I would love to see that much on the possible solutions.
Would I love for the combat to change and resemble that of Sekiro and Mortal Kombat !
I have a system that works for me that involves:
Limited: attributes, gear,food,skill,passives, cp, self imposed rules, night and day interactivity, use of addons, unbinding keys and others...
Is not perfect for everyone, but with a sprinkle of RP it’s magical for me.
I will someday make a detailed post about it explaining how I enjoy the overland combat.
1 -
LashanW✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Current CP system is much less powerful compared to previous CP system, base stats are buffed. A no CP character is much stronger now compared to previous patches. Yet overland content is still brain dead.I honestly struggle with overland on new characters and with my sad 300 CP, I can't imagine what no CP is like, without knowing much about the game and such.
I am in the same boat. I stopped paying for new chapters and DLCs (I used to buy all DLCs atleast with gold). Still don't own Greymoor. Overland questing is similar to visual novel type of gameplay now, which I don't enjoy. I'm not even remotely interested in new overland content and quests now (since I know they are catered to a starting player and not an experienced player), which is a shame considering this is the game I've played and payed most. Now I spend time and money on other games for single player experience and only play ESO for group content.Sanguinor2 wrote: »I myself for example dont play overland content anymore. I only buy zone dlcs/chapters if there is other content I want in it like a trial/arena. I am not subbed anymore since all I do is Trials/PvP.
I get why base game overland should be kept in this super easy state. When I started out the game 3 years ago, I have had trouble with a quest boss, I've died repeatedly to the burning beetle boss in Glenumbra public dungeon. I was low level with no clue about the game. I leveled up a bit got some new skills and went back and showed that stupid beetle who's boss. So yes, I do understand a new player's struggle. If there was a veteran version of overland I wouldn't have bothered going there coz I'd have known I wasn't ready for that yet. Would that personally offend me? hell no. I'd go there when I'm ready.
But imo a new player should start out in base game zones and follow the main quest, learn the basics, meet the recurring characters before jumping to the latest content. Timeline doesn't make sense otherwise. Questing order is an absolute mess in this game now. I don't get why latest overland content should be catered to someone who bought the game today. Base game content? sure. Alliance story and main quest start there, so they should be catered to a starting player. But why is there no difficulty options in newer overland so an experienced player can also have fun? Lack of difficulty options in overland makes experienced players not want to play and pay them.
---No longer active in ESO---
Platform: PC-EU
CP: 2500+Trial Achievements
Godslayer, Gryphon Heart, Tick-Tock Tormentor, Immortal Redeemer, Dro-m'Athra Destroyer, vMoL no death
Arena Achievements
vMA Flawless, vVH Spirit Slayer
DLC Dungeon Trifectas
Scalecaller Peak, Fang Lair, Depths of Malatar, Icereach1 -
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Sevn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Out of curiosity after 6 pages has anyone addressed a universal consensus on difficulty? I see tons of folks who simply want enemies to be tougher and more threatening, OP wants new mechanics and I'm sure they're not alone.
Someone mentioned it earlier in the thread, like page one for crying out loud, you put 100 players in a room, all in favor of a vet overland and the room will still be split on difficulty.
25- hardcore vet trials
25- vet dungeon
25- dlc hardcore vet dungeon
25- normal dungeon
Are they going to run four different "vet" overlands? If not which group wins out? I assure you the other 75% won't be happy if it's not the version they want.There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man, true nobility is being superior to your former self
-Hemingway1 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Out of curiosity after 6 pages has anyone addressed a universal consensus on difficulty? I see tons of folks who simply want enemies to be tougher and more threatening, OP wants new mechanics and I'm sure they're not alone.
Someone mentioned it earlier in the thread, like page one for crying out loud, you put 100 players in a room, all in favor of a vet overland and the room will still be split on difficulty.
25- hardcore vet trials
25- vet dungeon
25- dlc hardcore vet dungeon
25- normal dungeon
Are they going to run four different "vet" overlands? If not which group wins out? I assure you the other 75% won't be happy if it's not the version they want.
We have 2 levels of difficulty in dungeons, trials, and arenas. (not counting HM). Why should this be any different?
The other 75% wouldn't get exactly what they wanted, but that doesnt necessarily translate to being unhappy. Thats letting perfect be the enemy of good.4 -
Sevn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Agenericname wrote: »Out of curiosity after 6 pages has anyone addressed a universal consensus on difficulty? I see tons of folks who simply want enemies to be tougher and more threatening, OP wants new mechanics and I'm sure they're not alone.
Someone mentioned it earlier in the thread, like page one for crying out loud, you put 100 players in a room, all in favor of a vet overland and the room will still be split on difficulty.
25- hardcore vet trials
25- vet dungeon
25- dlc hardcore vet dungeon
25- normal dungeon
Are they going to run four different "vet" overlands? If not which group wins out? I assure you the other 75% won't be happy if it's not the version they want.
We have 2 levels of difficulty in dungeons, trials, and arenas. (not counting HM). Why should this be any different?
The other 75% wouldn't get exactly what they wanted, but that doesnt necessarily translate to being unhappy. Thats letting perfect be the enemy of good.
What's the point of going through with this if the majority of the players are going to remain unsatisfied?
Might as well do absolutely nothing and let the players who are unhappy now remain unhappy. If it translates to unhappiness now I can't understand why it wouldn't in the future. Simple as that.Edited by Sevn on March 26, 2021 3:40AMThere is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man, true nobility is being superior to your former self
-Hemingway4 -
jle30303✭✭✭✭✭
✭Overland is MEANT to be a breeze once you know how to fight. That's the point of it, because it's there for new players who are starting out.
I just went into the Jester's quest with my fourth character - a character who has levelled up to 24 doing nothing but crafting writs, deconstructing surplus items that I pass over to her via my banker, and researching traits from same, has no gear except white gear she made herself today because one has to wear *something* when out adventuring, has pretty much only three usable combat skills all at level IV, and I haven't a clue what to do with a dragonknight yet anyway. No healing and certainly no sustain.
And the fight against King Boar - a tier-1 boss, and therefore not the greatest challenge, delve bossses are tier-1 bosses - was HARD. As in my character actually died twice. And this was AFTER spending my CPs (and this included 50 in Ironclad and 50 in Rejuvenation, both of which I've taken as standard on all my toons.)
My main, a L50 templar tank, of course, could pretty much fart in its general direction and win (What about the smell? Oh, the pig doesn't mind) - he's the character I have that can solo world bosses and public dungeons without breaking a sweat, and the trouble was actually making the fight last long enough to steal more than one lot of fermented apples.
The same was true of my second character, a less well geared (still in 2 complete outfits and a monster set, all purple) but still effective level 50 magicka necromancer - who is not yet up to soloing world bosses, which are tier-3 bosses, and has trouble with the tier-2 bosses in public dungeons, but tier-1 bosses are not a problem unless there are multiple of them.
The third, a level 35 Nordic stamina archer warden, had more trouble with King Boar because of the usual problem, running out of stamina...
To be frank, I think not only that the business of overland SHOULD be trash, but that it shouldn't even level up with you. If not fixed, it should at least be capped, so that you start to out-level it once you pass its cap.
Dungeons, trials, instanced stuff, group stuff, that's where the difficult things could be.7 -
jle30303✭✭✭✭✭
✭The point being that, if you find certain content too easy, the problem isn't that the content should be more difficult, it's that YOU should move to the more difficult content. If you don't have the skills or the gear for that... that's what having easy content to gain the skill points, as well as the levels, is FOR.4 -
Morgha_Kul✭✭✭✭✭
✭I will agree that the difficulty in overland is a bit... flat. I mean, if I see a dremora wandering around, I feel no more threatened than if I see a mudcrab. There's just not much difference between the different enemies.
I remember playing Morrowind (ES3) and being very leery of going to a daedric ruin, because the scamps and clannfear were FAR more dangerous than the alits and kagouti...
It should be more that way. That is, I don't want to see things revamped entirely, just that some foes should be innately more powerful.Exploring Tamriel since 1994.1 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Morgha_Kul wrote: »I will agree that the difficulty in overland is a bit... flat. I mean, if I see a dremora wandering around, I feel no more threatened than if I see a mudcrab. There's just not much difference between the different enemies.
I remember playing Morrowind (ES3) and being very leery of going to a daedric ruin, because the scamps and clannfear were FAR more dangerous than the alits and kagouti...
It should be more that way. That is, I don't want to see things revamped entirely, just that some foes should be innately more powerful.
That’s how I feel. Certain types of enemies should be clearly a greater threat than others.
It reminds me of when I played Skyrim on a harder difficulty, and I ran into a bear or a sabertooth at low level. That put me on my toes.
I can agree with @jle30303 that Overland should be a breeze when you know how to fight, the problem is that it doesn’t really teach you how to fight.
The only places where you actually learn how to play the game is through PvP and content like the dungeons, where they actually implement tough fights with mechanics that make you think.
This is what I liked about one of the bosses in the public dungeon in Greymoor. It was more of an extended fight with mechanics they put me in a position to rethink how to beat it. (Tho tbf that was with my tank guy with minor changes for dps)
My core problem really comes down to the Main Story - in my opinion if you were going to advertise a big epic major story then you should make a story enjoyable for more than just the new players.
I think Main Story Boss encounters are the most in need of revision. Make them fights we can get excited & invested about beating.
Like others have said, I would like to enjoy my solo experience more. I’m not saying everything has to be Veteran level hard but there clearly some areas in which the game could be better0 -
Hallothiel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »
Ok I get it you don’t like the overland zones. “Too easy.” And casual players don’t like dungeons, trials, or arenas. So... Should we make easy solo versions of vet trials, dungeons, and arenas?
There is easy mode versions of trials. Its called normal, doesnt have mechanics and can be tanked by a 19k health sorc.
By you. And a few others. But most players cannot solo a normal dungeon. And it sounds a bit arrogant to suggest otherwise.
There may be a vocal minority on the Forums that want this, but that works out as a very very very small proportion of players.
Whether different servers, instances or sliders, as has already been pointed out, this will all take developer resources - and for what? To keep a few people ‘happy’.
(But then the complaints would be about dead areas or demanding increased loot for doing ‘harder’ stuff or something else...)
Overland is what it is.
But my suggestion upthread for proper individual instances of quest end bosses of varying difficulty is a workable to that ‘issue’, imho 😀
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Araneae6537✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Personally, I wish there was LESS overland combat (truly overland, not counting delves, ruins, public dungeons, etc.) but that what enemies there were scaled better. The areas where we meet wandering merchants and other NPCs would do well with less random monsters, or at least fewer that attack unless you invade their space or attack first. But where most NPCs fear to tread, yes, I would like to see combat be more significant, at least major enemies.1
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