Olauron wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Dark Brrotherhood is interacting with NPCs. Trading is interacting with players. Managing possible interactions between players is a sign of game with healthy community.

This was said because you were implying that real world rules apply in a video game. They do not.

allhailskippy wrote: »

You may increase the price of any product (computer, phone, food) right now 100 times and still sell such an amount, that you get at least the same overall income (if it is possible to build monopoly). That doesn't mean that the value of any such product is 100 more. That simply means that you are selling it to 100 less customers.

If I list an item for 100g and it sells for 100g. Then that's its value.
You are again, arguing reality vs video games. They do not operate the same, and they should not operate the same.

I imply that any social interaction between players should be regulated in a game. Do you imply that scamming, for example, should be allowed in games?

You can list an item for 100g, it can be bought for 100g by one number of players. You can list an item for 100 000g, it can be bought by another number of players. You can list item for 100 000 000g, and it can be bought by you brother-in-wealth. If you prevent selling this item by other players, then what is the value of the item?

I'm implying that people should be allowed to buy and sell for whatever they please.

I do not condone practices where someone does not get either the gold or their item in this transaction. The guild trader system already has this in place to prevent 'scams'.

Are you asking that they stop people from offering half market value in zone chat too?
I don't like it when they do that, but I don't think ZoS should be responsible for enforcing what can or can't be asked for pricing.

So yes, I'm against ZoS directly interfering in sales.

Olauron wrote: »

You can list item for 100 000 000g, and it can be bought by you brother-in-wealth. If you prevent selling this item by other players, then what is the value of the item?

If that item sells for 100,000,000g then that's its value.

Of course, if you list, and don't sell, then you are out 1,000,000g.

allhailskippy wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Shantu wrote: »

The purchase/resell cycle is a byproduct of a free, unregulated market. Though the practice can feel unethical at times, that's just the way free markets work.

It's also why basically no nation on earth actually has completely unregulated markets - it's a recipe for disaster.

If it feels unethical it's because it is unethical - more folks should listen to their conscience.

I'll again reference reality vs video games.

A large part of what we do in this game would be considered 'unethical' should it be examined from a "reality" perspective.

- Murdering people
- Stealing
- Trespassing
- Pulling bugs apart and taking their guts
- Skinning thousands of animals
- Barging into a dungeon, killing all its inhabitants and stealing all of their posssions i

Flipping items for gold in this setting is NOT unethical.

I think it can be unethical in certain circumstances, but not always.

Example: players who go to different zones offering to buy mats for well below the market value.
Ethical? Well, some players who don't have trading guilds say they really like this because it's a quick sale for them.
Unethical? I think so, simply because the majority of this sales tactic relies on players who don't know that the market price of cornflower isn't 230g.

Example: buying bargains at guild stores
Ethical? I think its reasonable to assume that most players know what they are doing when they list their items at a bargain price. Lots of players want a quick sell, including me!
Unethical? Sometimes you hit a point of "That can't be right." When I started selling reagents, a kind guildie let me know that Columbine sells for more than 20 gold each. Years later I saw that a guildie had listed a gold Minotaur motif book for 50g, bought it, and mailed it back to him - found out he'd forgotten a couple zeros.

Flipping is part of the trading game. It doesn't have to be unethical, though as with most things involving many players, everyone will draw their line in the sand a little differently.

VaranisArano wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Shantu wrote: »

The purchase/resell cycle is a byproduct of a free, unregulated market. Though the practice can feel unethical at times, that's just the way free markets work.

It's also why basically no nation on earth actually has completely unregulated markets - it's a recipe for disaster.

If it feels unethical it's because it is unethical - more folks should listen to their conscience.

I'll again reference reality vs video games.

A large part of what we do in this game would be considered 'unethical' should it be examined from a "reality" perspective.

- Murdering people
- Stealing
- Trespassing
- Pulling bugs apart and taking their guts
- Skinning thousands of animals
- Barging into a dungeon, killing all its inhabitants and stealing all of their posssions i

Flipping items for gold in this setting is NOT unethical.

I think it can be unethical in certain circumstances, but not always.

Example: players who go to different zones offering to buy mats for well below the market value.
Ethical? Well, some players who don't have trading guilds say they really like this because it's a quick sale for them.
Unethical? I think so, simply because the majority of this sales tactic relies on players who don't know that the market price of cornflower isn't 230g.

Example: buying bargains at guild stores
Ethical? I think its reasonable to assume that most players know what they are doing when they list their items at a bargain price. Lots of players want a quick sell, including me!
Unethical? Sometimes you hit a point of "That can't be right." When I started selling reagents, a kind guildie let me know that Columbine sells for more than 20 gold each. Years later I saw that a guildie had listed a gold Minotaur motif book for 50g, bought it, and mailed it back to him - found out he'd forgotten a couple zeros.

Flipping is part of the trading game. It doesn't have to be unethical, though as with most things involving many players, everyone will draw their line in the sand a little differently.

It's just a variation on knowledge is power.

When I started this game, I for sure sold some items to zone spammers. Then I eventually learned that there was a way to make more gold than from selling to them. So I started doing that instead.

Does that mean that I should go after the people I sold to? No. I saw a price, accepted that price, and got the gold I expected. That's a fair trade. Just because they knew of a way to flip that for more, doesn't mean ZoS should have stopped them from making their initial sale.

allhailskippy wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Shantu wrote: »

The purchase/resell cycle is a byproduct of a free, unregulated market. Though the practice can feel unethical at times, that's just the way free markets work.

It's also why basically no nation on earth actually has completely unregulated markets - it's a recipe for disaster.

If it feels unethical it's because it is unethical - more folks should listen to their conscience.

I'll again reference reality vs video games.

A large part of what we do in this game would be considered 'unethical' should it be examined from a "reality" perspective.

- Murdering people
- Stealing
- Trespassing
- Pulling bugs apart and taking their guts
- Skinning thousands of animals
- Barging into a dungeon, killing all its inhabitants and stealing all of their posssions i

Flipping items for gold in this setting is NOT unethical.

I think it can be unethical in certain circumstances, but not always.

Example: players who go to different zones offering to buy mats for well below the market value.
Ethical? Well, some players who don't have trading guilds say they really like this because it's a quick sale for them.
Unethical? I think so, simply because the majority of this sales tactic relies on players who don't know that the market price of cornflower isn't 230g.

Example: buying bargains at guild stores
Ethical? I think its reasonable to assume that most players know what they are doing when they list their items at a bargain price. Lots of players want a quick sell, including me!
Unethical? Sometimes you hit a point of "That can't be right." When I started selling reagents, a kind guildie let me know that Columbine sells for more than 20 gold each. Years later I saw that a guildie had listed a gold Minotaur motif book for 50g, bought it, and mailed it back to him - found out he'd forgotten a couple zeros.

Flipping is part of the trading game. It doesn't have to be unethical, though as with most things involving many players, everyone will draw their line in the sand a little differently.

It's just a variation on knowledge is power.

When I started this game, I for sure sold some items to zone spammers. Then I eventually learned that there was a way to make more gold than from selling to them. So I started doing that instead.

Does that mean that I should go after the people I sold to? No. I saw a price, accepted that price, and got the gold I expected. That's a fair trade. Just because they knew of a way to flip that for more, doesn't mean ZoS should have stopped them from making their initial sale.

I can see your point of view, but I still disagree. That seems more akin to carrying out the terms of a contract correctly, when the contract was negotiated to grossly favor one party.

As I said, some players go into that with full knowledge of it and are okay with it. Players who dislike guild stores often prefer those sorts of personal, quick, bargain sales.

Where that's not the case, those buyers are relying on the ignorance of the seller to make the deal. Maybe you don't hold it against them, and that's fine for you! I tend to post my MM info in zone chat or say "I sell X item for Y gold in my guild" because if we're going to say that "Knowledge is Power", then surely it benefits everyone to have the knowledge that the deal the buyer is offering is far below market value.

I'd be a lot more okay with zone chat bargain buyers if they were upfront about buying in bulk at a deep discount, but they usually aren't. Probably because they'd get less sales that way.


Side note: I'm reminded of a particularly strident individual who posted on the forums greatly upset that players were "harassing" him by posting the MM and TTC prices of something he was trying to sell in zone chat for far over the market value. Knowledge is power when it comes to the economy, and some people get really upset when players share their knowledge about how much you can expect to pay/profit from items if they feel it cuts into their profits.

VaranisArano wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Shantu wrote: »

The purchase/resell cycle is a byproduct of a free, unregulated market. Though the practice can feel unethical at times, that's just the way free markets work.

It's also why basically no nation on earth actually has completely unregulated markets - it's a recipe for disaster.

If it feels unethical it's because it is unethical - more folks should listen to their conscience.

I'll again reference reality vs video games.

A large part of what we do in this game would be considered 'unethical' should it be examined from a "reality" perspective.

- Murdering people
- Stealing
- Trespassing
- Pulling bugs apart and taking their guts
- Skinning thousands of animals
- Barging into a dungeon, killing all its inhabitants and stealing all of their posssions i

Flipping items for gold in this setting is NOT unethical.

I think it can be unethical in certain circumstances, but not always.

Example: players who go to different zones offering to buy mats for well below the market value.
Ethical? Well, some players who don't have trading guilds say they really like this because it's a quick sale for them.
Unethical? I think so, simply because the majority of this sales tactic relies on players who don't know that the market price of cornflower isn't 230g.

Example: buying bargains at guild stores
Ethical? I think its reasonable to assume that most players know what they are doing when they list their items at a bargain price. Lots of players want a quick sell, including me!
Unethical? Sometimes you hit a point of "That can't be right." When I started selling reagents, a kind guildie let me know that Columbine sells for more than 20 gold each. Years later I saw that a guildie had listed a gold Minotaur motif book for 50g, bought it, and mailed it back to him - found out he'd forgotten a couple zeros.

Flipping is part of the trading game. It doesn't have to be unethical, though as with most things involving many players, everyone will draw their line in the sand a little differently.

It's just a variation on knowledge is power.

When I started this game, I for sure sold some items to zone spammers. Then I eventually learned that there was a way to make more gold than from selling to them. So I started doing that instead.

Does that mean that I should go after the people I sold to? No. I saw a price, accepted that price, and got the gold I expected. That's a fair trade. Just because they knew of a way to flip that for more, doesn't mean ZoS should have stopped them from making their initial sale.

I can see your point of view, but I still disagree. That seems more akin to carrying out the terms of a contract correctly, when the contract was negotiated to grossly favor one party.

As I said, some players go into that with full knowledge of it and are okay with it. Players who dislike guild stores often prefer those sorts of personal, quick, bargain sales.

Where that's not the case, those buyers are relying on the ignorance of the seller to make the deal. Maybe you don't hold it against them, and that's fine for you! I tend to post my MM info in zone chat or say "I sell X item for Y gold in my guild" because if we're going to say that "Knowledge is Power", then surely it benefits everyone to have the knowledge that the deal the buyer is offering is far below market value.

I'd be a lot more okay with zone chat bargain buyers if they were upfront about buying in bulk at a deep discount, but they usually aren't. Probably because they'd get less sales that way.


Side note: I'm reminded of a particularly strident individual who posted on the forums greatly upset that players were "harassing" him by posting the MM and TTC prices of something he was trying to sell in zone chat for far over the market value. Knowledge is power when it comes to the economy, and some people get really upset when players share their knowledge about how much you can expect to pay/profit from items if they feel it cuts into their profits.

Exactly what I think ZoS's role should be. Ensuring that contracts terms are enforced. Not the contents of the contracts themselves.

I have no problem with them asking in zone chat. I also have no problems with other people in zone (often myself) informing the uninformed folks that the prices are better at traders.

Remember, this is a social game as much as it is a fighting game, and there are ways that people play that aren't gonna feel great sometimes.

But that doesn't mean we should cripple the social aspect of the game.

allhailskippy wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

When I am thinking of value, I am thinking of value for the society (community), not of any individual value. "What is the value of the potato for a community of ESO players?"

Since the market is extremely fluid. I would, and am arguing that there is no actual value, and only perceived value then.

Does anybody in the game NEED any item? Nope. It's a video game. There is no real value that can be assigned to it. Your character will not be lost if it does not eat a virtual potato.

There is only a perceived value, and that value is determined by the people who sell items in game. Regardless if it's for 1g or 1,000,000g. ZoS should have no direct influence on what I determine my perceived value to be beyond controlling the supply/demand through drop rates and game features.

Perceived value is determined by players who sell and who buy in both cases, with and without flipping. Nothing prevents any seller from listing a potato for 1g or for 1 000 000g in either case. You don't want a developer to influence this, yet for some reason you are OK with any player with enough in-game wealth to influence it by making a monopoly.

The economy works, yes there are scalpers but they're role playing too.

allhailskippy wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

When I am thinking of value, I am thinking of value for the society (community), not of any individual value. "What is the value of the potato for a community of ESO players?"

Since the market is extremely fluid. I would, and am arguing that there is no actual value, and only perceived value then.

Does anybody in the game NEED any item? Nope. It's a video game. There is no real value that can be assigned to it. Your character will not be lost if it does not eat a virtual potato.

There is only a perceived value, and that value is determined by the people who sell items in game. Regardless if it's for 1g or 1,000,000g. ZoS should have no direct influence on what I determine my perceived value to be beyond controlling the supply/demand through drop rates and game features.

This is essentially exactly how real markets work as well. Just Google “GameStop” and see what a real life example of real vs perceived value actually is.

In order for us to have the GameStop situation, we'd have to be able to sell items we don't actually have in our inventory yet. And then someone else would have to come in and strip the market of those items, causing an artificial price increase, not because people want those items, but because they are obligated to buy them at any price.

Haha fair ... it’s definitely not an apples to apples. Just wanted to point out that there are many examples in real life where perceived value can be all over the place.

linuxlady wrote: »

The value of all items bought and sold in this game is 0. they are all imaginary as well as the currency. The simple fact that they cant be removed from the game or exist outside of the game should prove this.

now as to the imaginary circumstance we have in the game, irl we would implement ant-trust laws.

Please tell me what you can do today with a Dogecoin? I own thousands of them. They are pointless air that doesn’t even do what Bitcoin does (which also isn’t a tangible thing) that are worth roughly 5.5 cents each.

They do NOTHING. They have ZERO UTILITY. They are also worth more than a nickel each because people say they are.

allhailskippy wrote: »

linuxlady wrote: »

The value of all items bought and sold in this game is 0. they are all imaginary as well as the currency. The simple fact that they cant be removed from the game or exist outside of the game should prove this.

I was going to say this before. But it's not quite correct. All the items in the game have 0 real world value. Because the ToS prevent selling in game gold for real currency.

But this discussion is around value as measured by in game currency. Which, while not exchangeable, is still measurable inside the context of the game.

Mind you, if we want to get pedantic, you could technically use the cost of in game gold vs the cost of real world dollars for crowns as a measurement. But the direction is only one way, as you can put real money into the game. But not extract it. It also doesn't alter the discussion in any meaningful way as far as I can tell.

If I were to buy 10,000 crowns for $100 then the value of a crown in the actual real world is 1 penny each. Any video game currency that can be bought directly by a real world currency is an actual real world currency. It’s against the TOS to resell them but that’s besides the point here.

ZOS doesn’t make money when you spend your crowns. They make money when you buy your crowns no matter what you do with them.

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

And if people buying items and re selling them for an profit then you sold to cheap.

This is not necessarily true nor is it what the OP is talking about.

They are talking about artificial scarcity brought about by cartel-like behavior designed to manipulate markets for certain goods. You can see this phenomenon quite clearly in real life right now in the GPU market, where organized groups of flippers are buying up (with bots) all card stocks and re-selling them for 2x-3x their MSRP. Since they've cleaned out the market, buyers have no choice but to bow to the extortion or forego a card.

In ESO, you can see this with raw materials. The cartels that traffic in a particular material will clean out all of the inventory as an enforcement mechanism to prop up their own artificially high price. Buyers are then forced to pay the price or farm it themselves but rest assured this is not the behavior of a well-functioning market.

I personally bought every dawn-prism under 20k in Mournhold, Elden Root and like 10 other locations a day after the PVP event on XBox.

No cartel. Just me. I sat on them for a week before slowly re-releasing them back into the market as jewelry. I actually could straight out flood the market with jewelry tonight if I felt like it, but I don’t because I’m intentionally trying to keep the market at a level.

So yes, you’re right, but this behavior doesn’t need a cartel if you have enough gold and patience.

Fun thing here is other players will see your price and think hey I have some of those I should list them or hey I should farm that and try to make some gold. You can't control the market. You can temporarily benefit with some planning. Eventually another player is going to undercut you. With over 200 trader locations in the game there is no way even a cartel can control prices let alone one player.