amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

BeefcakeManwich wrote: »

Haha this always cracks me up. It's group loot. So what if they know what dropped. Some games it's automatically built into it. Just don't respond. Problem solved. But why do I have to because they did and now it's harder for me to be left to myself in an mmo. Oh the run arounds of first world problems.

If it's group loot, then everybody in the group should get it.

If each person in the group got different loot, then it wasn't "group loot."

IMHO; YMMV and clearly does.

This type of "What's yours is mine" mentality is all the more reason not to play in a group, AFAIC.

How is asking 'can I have that (if you don't need it) please?' (from a player who just fought alongside you in a group activity but just had worse rng than you, not just a totally random player) an example of 'what yours is mine' mentality? Isn't it a prime example of team communication which is, you know, the very heart of an MMO? If such things make you feel uncomfortable, perhaps you should consider either not playing MMOs, avoiding group activities in MMOs, or perhaps work on that insecurity of yours a bit (I say that without the smallest intention of offence, it just is what it is - there's absolutely no reason that some stranger asking for something in text chat in a game should make you feel quite that uncomfortable).

You think that's how it gets asked? lmao

"<item> plz" is how it gets asked.

On the same token, how is saying "I'm looking for <item> if anybody loots any they don't need" at the beginning of a dungeon such a problem? Why do you have to download an app that goes through player's inventories so you can approach them like a panhandler with your hand out asking "gimme gimme gimme"?

Shorter form of the same thing. How is it an issue, honestly? What are they supposed to say, 'Dear amm7sb14_ESO, I'd like to apologize from the bottom of my heart for disturbing you and I in no mean imply to invade your privacy or lay claim to things rightfully yours, but if the Eight would have it that you don't need this gorgeous sword you just looted in any way, could you perhaps be so kind as to give it to this lowly unfortunate teammate of yours? Rest assured, I would be grateful for this grand gesture of kindness and generosity for the rest of my life, I would name all my kids amm7sb14/15/16 (etc in ascending order) after you and spread word of your kindness forever!'

People often do both (ask and use addon), because often people don't bother reading groupchat or even checking what loot they got. There have already been multiple people in this thread alone who've had accounts of whispering people about the loot they got and finding out they didn't actually notice they got it and were in fact more than happy to trade for it. It just makes it easier - instead of everyone having to track everything they get (while keeping in mind all the gear your teammates mentioned they need), the farmer can simply do it himself, saving everyone's time.

. Nobody is entitled to see what I loot.

you are totally wrong about that. Zos gave everybody the right to see other group members drops.

The only person not being entitled to something is you having your loot not shown.

Agenericname wrote: »

But my question was, how is that mentality "middle ground?" It isnt and is not a reasonable position to take.

Why do we need to agree to a middle ground with players who want to use an addon to look at our drops? This isn't the default action of the game and we have no obligation to compromise with anyone who wants to change that.

Hapexamendios wrote: »

I'm glad consoles don't have this.

Same. I admit there are some addons I wish I had, but this addon isn't one of them. Because it is intrusive and disrespectful towards those that don't want to use it.

I have received PLENTY of loot without it too.

Agenericname wrote: »

KalyanLazair wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

KalyanLazair wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

KalyanLazair wrote: »

FluffyDoom wrote: »

If it's possible to do, seems to me that the diplomatic solution would be to enable a method to toggle on/off participation in sharing loot data. Why not let each player decide to share/not share as they wish?

Which is exactly what the OP is asking, and many of us believe it is a good idea. The base game does not display that information, and this addon works without the other person knowing it, so I don't think asking for it to be optional is such a ludicrous thing. It's the best solution for everyone.

there is no channel for addons to talk to other players addons. despite addon authors wanting one for ages. so the only way this could work is through chat channels.

addons spamming stuff into there is way more intrusive and obnoxious to me.

I presumed there might be some technical limitation. However, correct me if I'm wrong but, doesn't this addon already post into the chat channel the loot information? What would be the difference between you seeing my loot to me broadcasting it for you? How is that also different to me manually broadcasting it to the group? Because that is what I do.

I know, because of my friend, that it even displays menial stuff like crafting materials. How does it keep things tidy if you've got someone like me in group grabbing everything in the dungeon? I'm genuinely concerned.

Is it possible to create an addon that, with a button click perhaps, or while active, it broadcasts to the group what loot I'm getting?

it posts to my chat because I tell it to post to my chat.I am the decider what shows up in my chat.
if I dont use addon my chat is clran.

in the other case it shows up in my chat because you decide whats in my chat. if I dont use addon my chat stays poluted.

So it is your business what shows up in your chat, but it is not mine to decide whether I want my loot displayed to other users or not?

Also, how is it different if I use an addon to display it on the group chat, or if I do it manually? How is it different if four people in a GD decide to display their loot manually? How is it different if 12 people from a trial do it? The outcome is the same, whether an addon does it for me or whether I do it by hand.

Also, you do not decide what shows up in the chat the moment three other people are using it, be it menial chatter or the loot I gathered. The difference is that I know my loot is being broadcasted for the whole group to see, while with the addon only you know that it is functioning, with the rest of the group having no idea whether you're using that addon on them or not.

I'm honestly baffled. Why is it so unthinkable to find a middle ground solution for both parts? It is not the people against the addon the ones not willing to find a middle ground valid for all, because most of them have stated that the only thing they want is an option so they choose not to broadcast their loot[/i], not for the addon to disappear completely. Whether that is a technical possibility or not is a completely different debate, but there is a valid middle ground option that is technically possible, which is for each person to decide whether they broadcast their own loot or not, but nope, that's not a valid option either. The only valid option is to live with it and stop complaining.

Havent they also said they would block/ignore or purposely withold the items as well? That doesnt seem like middle ground to me.

In nearly case if both of us are using it, benefits you more than it does me. I have nearly every useable set, with a few exceptions. I only say both because turning it off either inconvenient or I simply forget. To me its not a big deal. I spend more time thinking about my outfits than I do that add on. For that someone is willing to put me on ignore?

I think stastically, because I run so many dungeons, that I have grouped with someone that would, if they knew I had the add on, would have blocked me on principle alone. Its also probable that I have given them gear. Not certain, but probable. Does that really sound like middle ground?

Ok, fair point. That was indeed a bit too extreme. I would never be that petty myself.

I do understand some valid point brought forth about the usefulness of the addon, and like I stated, my friend uses it (I don't out of principle, and because I'm happier not knowing what others have gotten). I do understand some people might not even look at the stuff they loot, or don't bother posting it on chat, and it does help trading or obtaining items you would have otherwise missed.

However, there is also the other side of the story and their concerns are equally valid. There are those, like me, who do post everything I am willing to trade on chat at the end of the dungeon. Why should I be asked about that rare motif I just got lucky with when I did not post it on chat? Recipes, style mats, furnishing blueprints, I've lost count of the many non set related items people have asked for because they'd seen it using the addon. Does it really need to broadcast the potatoes and wheat I harvested?

I assume going in a dungeon implies that people might be looking for a set. That's a compromise I'm willing to deal with in GD because that's kind of the reason you obsessively go through a dungeon you've beaten dozens of times. Can't the addon be changed so it only broadcasts set pieces? Would that be a compromise you people in favor be willing to make? I'm guessing the API also delivers the type of item looted, so it's as simple as "if(type == X || type == Y){ broadcast(); }".

I agree that it is very petty to just block, ignore or destroy items just because someone asked, but that is not better than telling the other side to deal with it a begone. Maybe many of those people who've become so petty have so after being nagged about items they had not offered. Even if you're being nice and polite, if you're the tenth person the other side is not going to be approachable. How frustrated must a person be to come to the forums to ask for a way to hide their loot so people stop asking for stuff they've gotten lucky with?

Yes, ZoS has decided this addon is legal and fair, which is an oversight in my opinion as it is not part of the base game. That doesn't mean things can't change if people point out the issues and misuses of this addon. I already stated I didn't know it existed until last year, and I've been playing for ages. I've had two people ask me at the same time for a recipe (yes, a recipe) which wasn't even that good, it was purple but low CP level, and they both were over CP 160. It wasn't very pleasant to have two people wanting the same of a single item you have, which wouldn't have happened had they never known it dropped on me because I wasn't going to tell. Not because I'm petty but because I don't think it is important loot, it's a repice for Hircine's sake. How do we deal with an addon that helps some and ruins the experience for others?

You want it, others don't. How do we solve this situation by finding a middle ground that works for both parts?

Agenericname wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

I think stastically, because I run so many dungeons, that I have grouped with someone that would, if they knew I had the add on, would have blocked me on principle alone.

Doesn't that tell you something? They would block you on principle. The principle being their privacy being violated so someone else can ask them for their loot.

If a player wants to share drops they don't need they will link them. But it's their drops and their decision what they do with them. Using an addon to breach that and put them on the spot is just wrong.

No, that add on does nothing to breach that. The loot is yours until you decide that youre willing to part with it for whatever reason. The add in no way changes the ownership.

But my question was, how is that mentality "middle ground?" It isnt and is not a reasonable position to take.

A neighbor down the street stopped by and asked me if I'd sell my boat. I do not have it listed and I havent offered it up for sale. I told him no, and he thanked me for my time. Was my privacy violated?

It does in fact tell me something, but I dont think it tells you the same thing.

Actually, it'd be more as if you were giving away Warhammer figures you've got displayed in a case for all to see, while keeping the ones you want to keep in the backstore, and someone peeking into the backstore and saying; "I want that tyrannid harpy, can I have it?".

The thing is we don't know why the information is coded the way it is. As far as we know, it might be the way the program allows for trading between otherwise bound items between a certain group, and perhaps it is done in such a way because it is the only way to send information from one account to the other. The addon might be using that information in a way it was not intended for to begin with. If ZoS wanted to make that information public, they would have done it in the vanilla game and this discussion would be pointless because we would all have agreed to it the moment me started playing. The fact ZoS allows the addon means they don't care, but the fact the vanilla game (console game, etc) do not display that information tells me that it's intended function is likely something completely different.

Now imagine ten people swarming around your boat and wanting to know if you're selling. Now imagine this happens every time you walk out of your house. Now imagine someone randomly pointing at your flower pot, which has no value, and wondering if you'd give it to them. Imagine this happening over and over again. You learn to ignore, but that doesn't mean it is not annoying. Maybe I'm just so lucky I loot a worthless style mat someone wants (because yes, I've been asked for mats). I can totally understand some people having enough because it's happened to me. I'll just say no, I'm using that, or whatever, but it's like... another one? Dude, it's just a green blueprint!

@KalyanLazair
The recipes are interesting. For the most part I would encourage anyone running with me to ask. This is why, the game does not flag those as tradable. They are, but no tradable icon that keeps them at the top of the inventory. Even if I was going to link every single item that dropped I would more than likely forget if it was a duplicate. The list of items linked will at some point get cut off and it wont be seen, among other things. That could be an addon or setting in the game, Im not sure why that happens.There are plenty of times that when I go to vendor I sell recipes as well because theyre a bit of a nuisance if you dont need them.

So, if youre ever grouped with me and youre running the add on, by all means ask. Id rather see it used than sold for 17g.

LoneStar2911 wrote: »

l. If ZOS didn’t want players to work together and share if they’re willing

The keyword there is "if they're willing," and ZOS does NOT support this in-game, it requires additional software to do.

a

spartaxoxo wrote: »

LoneStar2911 wrote: »

l. If ZOS didn’t want players to work together and share if they’re willing

The keyword there is "if they're willing," and ZOS does NOT support this in-game, it requires additional software to do.

which they allow. and encourage. it's the reason they even bother with an api. and added the function.

remosito wrote: »

a

spartaxoxo wrote: »

LoneStar2911 wrote: »

l. If ZOS didn’t want players to work together and share if they’re willing

The keyword there is "if they're willing," and ZOS does NOT support this in-game, it requires additional software to do.

which they allow. and encourage. it's the reason they even bother with an api. and added the function.

ZoS may allow this but they do not encourage its use. If you are going to make that claim you need to back it up with a valid source.

ZoS may also allow an addon that blocks the action of this one. Ideally though they will just put in a toggle for sharing or not sharing group loot information.

It is very unfair to have an addon that affects players without their consent. We have every right to bring this issue to ZoS' attention and request a solution.

LashanW wrote: »

robertthebard wrote: »

These addons go into the backend code, and change it's function.

Please read up on software engineering terms such as "APIs, backends" before spreading misinformation.

I trust you'll be following this advice? I'll just point out how you decided to cherry pick a small part of the quote out to reply to, thinking you could strawman the rest out of existence.

If an external program gains access to a backend code via an API and "changes its functions" (in a way unintended by devs of the backend or the API), then it is a major security flaw and should've been caught at the QA stage and never make it production. Atleast it would've been noted quick during live and fixed via security patches asap.

But that hasn't happened, the addon has been operational for 4+ years. Because it's not violating any laws or EULA. It is simply listening to certain messages sent by Addons API (this is ZoS property) and presenting you that information in a nicely formatted manner.

Yes, the listening to the drops mechanic, which is background broadcast for the developers to be able to track it. This serves the purpose, as I stated in the post you almost quoted here, of allowing the devs to see when someone is trying to game the system on a drop, or when a legit issue arises with one. This isn't information that we as players need, so it wasn't intended for us to see it. This addon, again, as I pointed out in the post you almost quoted here, changes that functionality, so that we can see it.

remosito wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

BeefcakeManwich wrote: »

Haha this always cracks me up. It's group loot. So what if they know what dropped. Some games it's automatically built into it. Just don't respond. Problem solved. But why do I have to because they did and now it's harder for me to be left to myself in an mmo. Oh the run arounds of first world problems.

If it's group loot, then everybody in the group should get it.

If each person in the group got different loot, then it wasn't "group loot."

IMHO; YMMV and clearly does.

This type of "What's yours is mine" mentality is all the more reason not to play in a group, AFAIC.

How is asking 'can I have that (if you don't need it) please?' (from a player who just fought alongside you in a group activity but just had worse rng than you, not just a totally random player) an example of 'what yours is mine' mentality? Isn't it a prime example of team communication which is, you know, the very heart of an MMO? If such things make you feel uncomfortable, perhaps you should consider either not playing MMOs, avoiding group activities in MMOs, or perhaps work on that insecurity of yours a bit (I say that without the smallest intention of offence, it just is what it is - there's absolutely no reason that some stranger asking for something in text chat in a game should make you feel quite that uncomfortable).

You think that's how it gets asked? lmao

"<item> plz" is how it gets asked.

On the same token, how is saying "I'm looking for <item> if anybody loots any they don't need" at the beginning of a dungeon such a problem? Why do you have to download an app that goes through player's inventories so you can approach them like a panhandler with your hand out asking "gimme gimme gimme"?

Shorter form of the same thing. How is it an issue, honestly? What are they supposed to say, 'Dear amm7sb14_ESO, I'd like to apologize from the bottom of my heart for disturbing you and I in no mean imply to invade your privacy or lay claim to things rightfully yours, but if the Eight would have it that you don't need this gorgeous sword you just looted in any way, could you perhaps be so kind as to give it to this lowly unfortunate teammate of yours? Rest assured, I would be grateful for this grand gesture of kindness and generosity for the rest of my life, I would name all my kids amm7sb14/15/16 (etc in ascending order) after you and spread word of your kindness forever!'

People often do both (ask and use addon), because often people don't bother reading groupchat or even checking what loot they got. There have already been multiple people in this thread alone who've had accounts of whispering people about the loot they got and finding out they didn't actually notice they got it and were in fact more than happy to trade for it. It just makes it easier - instead of everyone having to track everything they get (while keeping in mind all the gear your teammates mentioned they need), the farmer can simply do it himself, saving everyone's time.

. Nobody is entitled to see what I loot.

you are totally wrong about that. Zos gave everybody the right to see other group members drops.

The only person not being entitled to something is you having your loot not shown.

Again, no. The addon gave everybody that uses it the ability to see them. Nobody except the looter has a "right" to see them. This is remarkably easy to test, just disable the addon, if you use it, and run a few dungeons, and see how many drops going to other people you see. Since nobody ever has time for that, I'll save you the trouble, you won't see any of them. This means that ZoS did not give you the "right" to see them.

remosito wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

a

spartaxoxo wrote: »

LoneStar2911 wrote: »

l. If ZOS didn’t want players to work together and share if they’re willing

The keyword there is "if they're willing," and ZOS does NOT support this in-game, it requires additional software to do.

which they allow. and encourage. it's the reason they even bother with an api. and added the function.

ZoS may allow this but they do not encourage its use. If you are going to make that claim you need to back it up with a valid source.

zos updates their api with every update. they add, change, sometimes remove functionality constantly.

that is ample enough proof for me that they encourage the creation and use of addons.

The fact that they allow addons is not proof that they encourage their use. Once again I ask you to provide a source that shows what you are claiming as fact.