The Faketank plague continues and Zenimax does nothing but punish proper players.

AyaDark · March 2021

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

I would really like to see an option to be able to queue up in either 2,3 or 4 depending how people feel.
Because at this point so many of us need transmutes and/or do the daily random for some extra experience and 4 people are mostly not needed for normal dungeons.
My husband and me (dd and healer) sometimes wait 20+ minutes in queue just to get a group together just to queue up again with another toons after it.Sometimes we get dlc dungeons as randoms and lot of people leave at the start so we are left in 2 and run it smoothly.It would save a lot of time and trouble if we could just queue up in 2 and run it.

We always queue like heal + tank or tank + dd in such situations if we know we will pass ,so we do not wait

Lady_Galadhiel · March 2021

AyaDark wrote: »

We always queue like heal + tank or tank + dd in such situations if we know we will pass ,so we do not wait

My husband refuses to take his tank into random groups because the times we did run it as heal+tank we always got the type of dd's who didn't deal any dmg at all and specially in dlc dungeons it can take really long to get it done.

DirkRavenclaw · March 2021

xAarionx wrote: »

Not all dun need tank
Even veteran ones...

Some we Manage to beat HM With 4 dps...

I dont like this Argument. Here is why: Dungeons are made for 2 DPS,1 Healer,1 Tank. Yes, most standard Dungeons can be run Solo Im aware of that but if you go into Groupfinder you find Players that are completly new to the Game, you can find all Sorts of Players. If you wanna run Fake Tank or Healer do it in a Guild and/or with Friends. I report anyone i see not playing rge Role he or she says he is. I hope one Day ZOS makes it so that you need to fulfill certain things, like having a Restostaff/Heakerskills for Healer or s&b or Icestaff equipped for Tanks and you cant switch sets inside of Dungeons. Well, if the new Companion Sytem is any good, Groupfinder will be so deserted that when we need others for Random outside of Guild the waiting Time will be as long for Tanks and Healers as it is now for DPS

Artemis_X_ · March 2021

It would be nice if you couldn't be grouped for pugs with people you ignored. Fake tanks would slowly disappear, and only then if you chose it.

VilniusNastavnik · March 2021

As a professional tank, I will run my off tank / dps for normals, my healz tank for optimised 4 mans, and my dedicated health tank for everything else. I find a bigger issue with people queing as DPS without being able to pull enough damage.

BlueRaven · March 2021

Stratti wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

What can zos do?

They could make pve tanking enjoyable for starters. Make it so a player with a sword and shield can kill things in a reasonable amount of time. So they can do quests and dailies.

Maybe more players will take up the roll?

That is something zos can do. Just a thought.

Listen ... I main a tank, on the same toon I have 2 offspecs 1 pure dps and 1 for pvp. It is not hard. There is no excuse for a tank not to have a viable dps off spec for overland stuff.

As far as the OP he seems to be raging at the deserter penalty. It is not a deserter penalty, that is from WoW. It is merely a cool down. So you cannot requeu for 15 minutes. You are not being penalised for leaving. Without that cool down then tanks would simply leave the group if the dps is low (which it often is) and reque instantly.

Which is easier? Having multiple load outs so you can tank, do dailies, and a third for pvp?

Or...

Basically one if you are a damage dealer.

Your argument basically boils down to what we have now is fine. Tanks just need to put in extra work.

What we have now is obviously NOT fine.

This problem is not about if YOU yourself likes tanking, it’s to get the rest of the community to like tanking.
Some people enjoy doing their own taxes in the US, most don’t. Just because a few like doing it does not mean that it is a universally loved process.

Basically what I am saying is, it’s a game no one wants to do put in extra work. They don’t want to farm the extra gear, get the extra sky shards for the additional skills, the extra CP, and then remember what goes where on their character. It’s not enjoyable to do things like that.

Make tanking as easy a gearing up process as a damage dealer.
Make tanking as easy to “get stuff done”, closer to a damage dealer.

Then you will see the tank issues go away.

Tsar_Gekkou · March 2021

xAarionx wrote: »

Not all dun need tank
Even veteran ones...

Some we Manage to beat HM With 4 dps...

But the average fake tank is an idiot who isn't good enough for these things and dies without being constantly focused with heals.

SeaArcanist · March 2021

solution is to premake a group, or queue as a tank yourself. if you're not willing to be a tank you're literally encompassing the same mindset the fake tanks are.

Agenericname · March 2021

SeaArcanist wrote: »

solution is to premake a group, or queue as a tank yourself. if you're not willing to be a tank you're literally encompassing the same mindset the fake tanks are.

Not even close. Provided they perform the functions of the role that they signed up for, theyre doing exactly what they said they would. A fake role, of any kind, is not.

lemonizzle · March 2021

Only place where fake tank hurts is vet dlc dungeons (and trials ofc) in a random setting. Organized groups can clear them with 4 dps like nothing, even back in 2017.
This "fake tank in normal Fungal 1 wtf zos!!!11" charade is getting old, do better dps so you don't even have to think about whether the 'tank' is someone who presses 1 button and stands still or someone who helps you clear the whole thing in less than 10 minutes.

trem3c · March 2021

WolfyRaps wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

WolfyRaps wrote: »

I Faketank every dungeon normal or vet exept VetDLC because of the shorter queues...

I simply can solo everything so the other players have either the choice to follow my rush and AOE pulls or vote to kick me because I ruin their gaming fantasy with my OP characters..

Well, then, I suggest you keep your skill to yourself, solo the dungeon by yourself, and cease patting yourself on the back, thinking you are so great and other should just bask in your magnificence.
Leave us scrubs fending for ourselves, we don't deserve you.

really.

We'll all be better off for this, I assure you.

I cannot solo for the daily dungeon xp boost (I need to be in the random dungeon queue) that I do on 4-5 characters out of 12 now for the cp grind..

Some pleople like it when I speed carry them.. So why the hostility ?

All you gotta do is use some basic human communications skills, and I think most people would be OK with the blast/pull routine. I certainly would. How about "hey, i'd like to do this as quickly as possible and i'm gonna pull and run. everyone ok with that?" and give the group a chance to agree. It's pretty simple. that way, at least, the farmers would know that they're not going to have time to open every box in the dungeon, and the ones doing inside quest can say "hey, i have inside and would like to go a little slower". it's just basic human behavior, like in RL.

Zyva · March 2021

To be honest, I go into every random dungeon expecting a fake tank and healer. In fact, I hope for a fake healer, because we dont need healers in any normal EVER, and any vet that is not a DLC we dont need one either. You can blame ZOS for that one, they made CP and base game stats now super OP and anyone plus1200 tends to get paired up with people plus1200 etc, you just facesmash everything. Tanks, its just the way it is having fake one when you queue for a random, its faster for scrubs, and as a endgame dps you slot pale order and roll with it, or some sort of self heal, and you carry them to get it over with. If I notice the tank is a fake, I just roll my eyes and if im annoyed enough, I'll throw on a taunt and the light armor shield and just do it myself. The combo of PO ring and decent damage is so strong atm that you can actually tank in all light armor any normal dungeon now with just throwing down your dots. I dont see why people get so riled. Vets are harder, but if its not a DLC? You can do your HM pledges and it dosent matter. If its a DLC, non hm is still fine even with 4 dps. I'm of course talking people with CP, not new players. New players wont even be in vets anyway.

Thing of it is, people who dont bother making builds? They are the ones who queue as fake anyway and need to be carried. Or end up whining/arguing about hybrid etc. People who want things done the quickest/best find a guild and queue with friends/guild members to do things properly. Its a mmo. The finder is not going to be the best way, its the pug way. Sometimes people actually dont know better, too. It happens.

Snow_White · March 2021

The problem isn’t fake tanks.

The problem is players farming random normals for the easy XP and transmutes.

Healers and DPS are all equally guilty of being over powered and imposing a speed run without asking, fake tanks that won’t hold aggro and/or kite the boss are just particularly irritating, and no one likes a queue jumper.

If they adjusted the vet rewards so that they compensated the time commitment it’d incentivize higher level characters to do the higher level content. Concurrently, they could add a check box to opt out of random vetDLC.

waterfairy · March 2021

They need to address the long dps que times to fix this problem before every dps switches to "tank". If you don't see a problem with this then imagine if every pug only had a 10% chance of a real tank...vet dailies would become more of a painful diceroll

Ocelot9x · March 2021

Since the new update I'm doing dailies again. If I use my tank I can find 3 cp 130 and i will need 30 minutes to end fungal grotto 1 normal, so why shouldn't I fake tank with my dps, clearing everything even for them?

gariondavey · March 2021

These threads are always so dang funny.

Fake tanking - fulfilling the tank roll while not geared as a tank (but with a taunt, and skill at surviving) is perfectly fine.

If you don't hold agro or die, you are are not doing it correctly (this is not a fake tank, this is just a bad dps).

I have fake tanked all normals (dlcs included) and most vets (obviously not some dlc ones) on my dps stamplar. I hold agro, I don't die, and I do great dps.

Any situation other than this is something you can complain about. Heck I've even healed vets where the tank had 12k hp. Who cares, if they can do the job, it doesn't matter. If they can't, then you can complain.

the1andonlyskwex · March 2021

gariondavey wrote: »

These threads are always so dang funny.

Fake tanking - fulfilling the tank roll while not geared as a tank (but with a taunt, and skill at surviving) is perfectly fine.

If you don't hold agro or die, you are are not doing it correctly (this is not a fake tank, this is just a bad dps).

I have fake tanked all normals (dlcs included) and most vets (obviously not some dlc ones) on my dps stamplar. I hold agro, I don't die, and I do great dps.

Any situation other than this is something you can complain about. Heck I've even healed vets where the tank had 12k hp. Who cares, if they can do the job, it doesn't matter. If they can't, then you can complain.

No. Fake Tanking is queueing for the tank role without actually intending to hold aggro and control boss positioning.

99.9% of "tanks" with less than 20k health are either not holding aggro, dying constantly, or staying alive by kiting bosses all over the dungeon.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2021

Serious question. How do you know he was a fake tank? Outside of Vet DLCs, nothing says you need more than 19k health to tank. And if anyone can do it with a Vet DLC, its a shield stacking sorc.

I tank Random Normals on my Sorc all the time (or insert any other class). Never had an issue. Am I fake because my health is low? I slot a taunt and control the boss, I CC adds, and typically do about 50-75% of group DPS. As long as you are satisfying the basic aspects of your role, for a tank that is taunt the boss and dont die, they are not fake.

I can do very similar things as a healer. As long as I have a group heal, I am satisfying the role.

Now of course, some groups require more of my effort to heal, but in group finder, I always start with satisfying the basic aspects of my role and then put out as much damage as possible. I will of course adapt as needed if the group needs more for me, but IMO experience, the best thing I can from any role in group finder is to increase Group DPS by as much as possible.

TLDR: I almost never queue as a DPS. I queue as a support, satisfy the basic functions of that role, and put out as much DPS as possible. I have carried countless pugs to the finish line in this matter, and never had an issue.

Sju · March 2021

Kurat wrote: »

People who hate fake tanks often don't realize that fake roles reduce YOUR queue times also.

I'd rather wait an hour than end up with a fake healer or tank.

zaria · March 2021

Zyva wrote: »

To be honest, I go into every random dungeon expecting a fake tank and healer. In fact, I hope for a fake healer, because we dont need healers in any normal EVER, and any vet that is not a DLC we dont need one either. You can blame ZOS for that one, they made CP and base game stats now super OP and anyone plus1200 tends to get paired up with people plus1200 etc, you just facesmash everything. Tanks, its just the way it is having fake one when you queue for a random, its faster for scrubs, and as a endgame dps you slot pale order and roll with it, or some sort of self heal, and you carry them to get it over with. If I notice the tank is a fake, I just roll my eyes and if im annoyed enough, I'll throw on a taunt and the light armor shield and just do it myself. The combo of PO ring and decent damage is so strong atm that you can actually tank in all light armor any normal dungeon now with just throwing down your dots. I dont see why people get so riled. Vets are harder, but if its not a DLC? You can do your HM pledges and it dosent matter. If its a DLC, non hm is still fine even with 4 dps. I'm of course talking people with CP, not new players. New players wont even be in vets anyway.

Thing of it is, people who dont bother making builds? They are the ones who queue as fake anyway and need to be carried. Or end up whining/arguing about hybrid etc. People who want things done the quickest/best find a guild and queue with friends/guild members to do things properly. Its a mmo. The finder is not going to be the best way, its the pug way. Sometimes people actually dont know better, too. It happens.

One guild I'm in run a lots of dungeons all from random normals, normal dlc farm, pledges and vet dlc including some HM.
Normals we tend to run 4 DD, on my magplar I tend to run MS+SPC+Zaan+ vma staff. Extended ritual back bar and ritual of rebirth front. Used this as healer in plenty of pledges with that too. Yes I use an resto staff if lots of damage is incoming.
Swap SPC for spell strategist if we have other healer.
Its very little difference between an magic DD and an healer. Except than then I'm on my magplar people don't die in the 4 DD nDLC farm runs and similar content

I seen plenty of decent low cp players die a lot in 3DD runs, they do decent dps but they are nor sturdy enough to survive without an healer. An dungeon healer is an healer / dd combo who also do buffing. In an trial you do heal and buffs and do some damage on the side but you have 1 tank and 4 DD to support and has solo healed plenty of normal trials.

RageKing · March 2021

I main as a tank (I have 5 tanks) but also also fake tank on my 10 dps to power through daily normal dungeons.
Knowing the mechanics is the biggest part to fake tanking. If you know the mechs and have a taunt and can stay alive with minimal heals then you can fake tank on any character.

Its the people who dont know anything and try to fake tank and fail. Learning how to tank with a real tank then switching over to fake tanks once you get ahold of it is the way to go.

Ive been fake tanking normal dungeons forever and never had a issue. Evem with DLC, again its the mechs that are most important

amm7sb14_ESO · March 2021

RageKing wrote: »

I main as a tank (I have 5 tanks) but also also fake tank on my 10 dps to power through daily normal dungeons.
Knowing the mechanics is the biggest part to fake tanking. If you know the mechs and have a taunt and can stay alive with minimal heals then you can fake tank on any character.

Its the people who dont know anything and try to fake tank and fail. Learning how to tank with a real tank then switching over to fake tanks once you get ahold of it is the way to go.

Ive been fake tanking normal dungeons forever and never had a issue. Evem with DLC, again its the mechs that are most important

I've never fake tanked a dungeon before, but as a tank main, I have had to fake tank individual bosses before if our tank goes down - most hilariously after trashing on others in the group, and then wiping out to the final boss in Selene's Web of all places.

As a tank main, I am largely familiar with the mechanics of the vast majority of content, so I will grab aggro and roll dodge through mechanics while the real tank is laying on his back. If I really had to, I probably could gear up and equip my, say, stam DPS Nightblade to tank a whole dungeon. I don't... but I'm sure I could.

I have no problems with fake tanks / healers *IF* they understand the mechanics and can control them. Someone with a bow and running the boss all around the room, or not holding aggro so the boss is bouncing back and forth between all the group members, is unacceptable in my eyes. For me, it's not "fake tanking" if you can fulfill the duties of the job, which is "hold aggro, don't die". If you are able to do that, idgaf what armor weight you're wearing, what weapons you're wearing, or anything else. I do have a problem if you don't slot a taunt (I have actually had fake-tanks argue with me about this that they shouldn't have to taunt because "i pLaY hOw i wAnT"), let the boss bounce from party member to party member, can't stay alive, and / or run the boss all around the room.

It comes back to what I always say about meta. I hate meta, and refuse to play meta. There is more that 1 way to do a job. But if you are going to play group content, you at least have to have an -intentional- build, built to intentionally fulfill a job duty. If you're going to "fake tank", then it is still your job to build intentionally to fulfill the duties of a tank, even if that means slotting a taunt and prepping lots of dodge rolling. Just don't run the boss all over the room, because at that point, you're actually making the run harder. Your extra DPS does not outweigh the concentrated DPS that would happen to a stationary boss sitting in AOE's and DOT's.

josiahva · March 2021

No surprise fake tanking continues...real tanks are nerfed to the point they don't want to tank anymore...what can you expect?

GoodFella146 · March 2021

The topic that never dies. Since most dungeons don't need a tank (or especially a healer), maybe it's just time to have a 4 dps queue so we can get these babies done asap. Most dungeons it's actually a detriment to have a healer or a tank as they just slow you down.

josiahva · March 2021

GoodFella146 wrote: »

The topic that never dies. Since most dungeons don't need a tank (or especially a healer), maybe it's just time to have a 4 dps queue so we can get these babies done asap. Most dungeons it's actually a detriment to have a healer or a tank as they just slow you down.

I'll agree that most(maybe even all, including HMs) can be done 4 DPS...but honestly, if dungeons are such a chore that your only goal is to be done ASAP, why even play them? The rewards aren't very good.

peacenote · March 2021

This problem is old as time (almost!) and while it can be annoying, honestly I have yet to see any suggestions to remedy it that wouldn't be more intrusive than just putting up with the issue.

I will say that it does seem to be getting worse, with more bad experiences for players, with the stickerbook changes. Things were at an all time high of awfulness during a recent event that incentivized dungeons.

But I still don't know what the solution could be. For as many disastrous pugs that I have had, I have been in just as many successful ones with real roles, hybrid roles, or even "fake" roles by some people's standards. And I will readily admit that sometimes what I want out of a dungeon run differs on my mood. Sometimes I will have the patience to teach mechanics and sometimes I just want that fast normal run. If "ideal" situations vary based on a person's mood I just don't know how many controls can be put in place before you kill creativity altogether.

I do wish that, when you queue with four people, you could just skip the role check. Silly to enforce that on people if you are all pre-grouped.

robertthebard · March 2021

BlueRaven wrote: »

Stratti wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

What can zos do?

They could make pve tanking enjoyable for starters. Make it so a player with a sword and shield can kill things in a reasonable amount of time. So they can do quests and dailies.

Maybe more players will take up the roll?

That is something zos can do. Just a thought.

Listen ... I main a tank, on the same toon I have 2 offspecs 1 pure dps and 1 for pvp. It is not hard. There is no excuse for a tank not to have a viable dps off spec for overland stuff.

As far as the OP he seems to be raging at the deserter penalty. It is not a deserter penalty, that is from WoW. It is merely a cool down. So you cannot requeu for 15 minutes. You are not being penalised for leaving. Without that cool down then tanks would simply leave the group if the dps is low (which it often is) and reque instantly.

Which is easier? Having multiple load outs so you can tank, do dailies, and a third for pvp?

Or...

Basically one if you are a damage dealer.

Your argument basically boils down to what we have now is fine. Tanks just need to put in extra work.

What we have now is obviously NOT fine.

This problem is not about if YOU yourself likes tanking, it’s to get the rest of the community to like tanking.
Some people enjoy doing their own taxes in the US, most don’t. Just because a few like doing it does not mean that it is a universally loved process.

Basically what I am saying is, it’s a game no one wants to do put in extra work. They don’t want to farm the extra gear, get the extra sky shards for the additional skills, the extra CP, and then remember what goes where on their character. It’s not enjoyable to do things like that.

Make tanking as easy a gearing up process as a damage dealer.
Make tanking as easy to “get stuff done”, closer to a damage dealer.

Then you will see the tank issues go away.

It doesn't matter what you do, you're not going to get the rest of the community to like tanking. I've been playing MMOs for 15+ years, and I've run tanks in most of them, and they are, publicly, a rare breed. There's a reason for that. Read the OP for one such reason, and check out HiveLeader's videos for another set of reasons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ivtJD0t9M4&ab_channel=PressStartToLaugh

Soulshine · March 2021

robertthebard wrote: »

It doesn't matter what you do, you're not going to get the rest of the community to like tanking. I've been playing MMOs for 15+ years, and I've run tanks in most of them, and they are, publicly, a rare breed. There's a reason for that. Read the OP for one such reason, and check out HiveLeader's videos for another set of reasons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ivtJD0t9M4&ab_channel=PressStartToLaugh

Unfortunately, the suggested main strategy to blame the healer while cute, doesn't work in ESO anymore since "healers are irrelevant," "not needed," "the same as DDs just with a heal on their bar," and... add in any other comment you care to which equates with healers need to leave the game, not play, git gud, L2DPS, etc etc etc

*eyerolls*

MalEducado · March 2021

Artemis_X_ wrote: »

It would be nice if you couldn't be grouped for pugs with people you ignored. Fake tanks would slowly disappear, and only then if you chose it.

your queue will takes 2-3 hours, then you will be in my group with your 10k of dps, and leave the dg nwith my tank and search agin during the next 3 hours

Tsar_Gekkou · March 2021

Artemis_X_ wrote: »

It would be nice if you couldn't be grouped for pugs with people you ignored. Fake tanks would slowly disappear, and only then if you chose it.

People would never get queues again because they would ignore everyone who doesn't do enough damage, or beats them in pvp/bgs.