RedMuse wrote: »

And yet I'm the *** if I just ignore people who use the addon and who are, quite frankly, extremely *** rude when asking. Sorry but, "hey I want that X you got, give it" or "I've run this crap dungeon 100 times, I need that item" is not polite in my book and if you behaved this way in real life you'd run into problems very quickly.

I mean, I don't mind being an *** in these situations, I've long since embraced my assholery when it comes to just ignoring rude people, yet I really fail to see how I'm the bigger *** of the two of us.

I am going to go out on limb here and assume you simply quoted the wrong person here. Considering I haven't said anything at all about you or anyone else. My comment was in reply to an earlier post about someone who was so socially anxious that if anyone in a group talked to them it could ruin their day. that is not on me to know or on anyone else since I cannot go into a group event assuming that nobody else can handle even a bare minimum of communication.

As for your comments about being rude to ignore the people that ask you for stuff, why would that be rude. it is your loot and you can refuse all you want, nobody but you gets a say in that, and I have never said you should or must. I will actually agree if someone demand something as if they have a right to it then I would refuse out of principle, but if I don't need something and someone just asked, not being rude just simply asked I would normally give it to them, or sell it to them.

RedMuse wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

RedMuse wrote: »

Flamebait wrote: »

I am sorry if you have so much trouble that you cannot stand a person you don't know whispering you, but that is entirely on you and not the game designers or other players. There are many days when I don't feel like being sociable, but that does not meant he entire world has to be sure to avoid talking to me to spare my feelings, rather that I have to avoid situations I don't want to be in. This discussion has gone from being about whether it is right to use an addon that ZOS is fully aware of, and has been for years, to how people might feel scared of having to deal with other people. The latter is no place for ZOS to involve themselves anyways, try a therapist if it's of concern to you, or don't it's your choice. As I said I don't use this addon but I also don't have group chat on so if something drops that someone might want they can whisper me or when the run is over and I port back to a city it's just gonna be deconstructed.

P.S. Even if group chat was on I wouldn't remember what someone else was looking for by the end of a dungeon and if you asked after every boss then I would have you on ignore before the end of the dungeon anyways.

And yet I'm the *** if I just ignore people who use the addon and who are, quite frankly, extremely *** rude when asking. Sorry but, "hey I want that X you got, give it" or "I've run this crap dungeon 100 times, I need that item" is not polite in my book and if you behaved this way in real life you'd run into problems very quickly.

I mean, I don't mind being an *** in these situations, I've long since embraced my assholery when it comes to just ignoring rude people, yet I really fail to see how I'm the bigger *** of the two of us.

that is not the issue of the addon at all. the issue is a rude ***.

I have had loads of ppl ask me for gear drops. 20% were nice and even offered me gold. 50% were asking very politely. 30% were rather short in their asking. Would be rude irl from ppl who speak english. online on pc eu where some ppl have very minimal or no english it's to be expected.

Not once did I have an *** encounter like you just described.

Congrats?

more a don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. or an invitation to post your breakup of nice to short to *** interactions due to the addon.

Decimus wrote: »

xAarionx wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Eh, it's not really about entitlement, more about just common decency and math.

I'm not about to go back 7 pages to read the conversation, but I'm assuming it's something along the lines of "you're not entitled to loot other people get", which is an argument that lacks a lot of detail.


Look at it this way: you run a dungeon and trade every single drop you got to a person (or people) missing most of them because that's what a decent human being is supposed to do (no, you don't really need those 500 gold from vendoring them that much).

Meanwhile that person gets the one item you've been after (1,6% drop chance with average 60 items that can drop from last boss/treasure chests), but refuses to trade it because he's also missing it.


If you're missing one piece from a dungeon your chances of getting a missing item are exponentially smaller than the chances for that other person missing 60 items.

Are they entitled to their loot? Sure.

I'm also entitled to never carrying their *** again and to adding them on my ignore list.


Anyway, moot point: when you're competing for top places in item set collection leaderboard you're not supposed to run with pugs anyway.

Just hoping this can explain how collectors who aren't as fortunate to being able to run with people they know might see this whole argument.

Thats... Just Plainly... I don't know even how to say without using some word that will problably get this post deleted...

Thats ABSOLUTELY NOT common decency and Absolutely NOT common math.

The same way that if you have some kind of some freaking obnoxious anxiety problem that you can't handle someone just wispering you asking if you gonna use something that you got is not my problem
(In fact if someone starts raging because I knew what they looted I'll instatly label that person as toxic and block her, nevertheless if it's the middle of a dun an trial i'll just kick her out. A NO is suficient, i'll understand, no need to start a fuzz. But it's definetly It's not my issue if you have issues, and i'm not obligated to coope with that, specially in an online game that I play to relax and entertain myself (Funny how people see only one side of that), and it happened already sometimes, and I'll always do that)

But the logic goes both ways

If you Are trying for a gear for the 500Th time that you need it and is only missing that, and some other person get it before you, they've every right to hold the item. It belongs to THEM, THAT is simple logic, they'll give to you if, and only if they want, and by their decision. There is no buts in here

"But I tried so much, and i'm only missing one, he only have that he won't have a use for it right now". That's not their problem

If they took pity on you and decide to give it, good for them, but if they don't want to do it, thats not bad either, because they're in their rights.

Cool. You know what's within my rights? Not playing with that person.

In fact, since I'm probably the one who formed the group you know what else is in my rights? Vote kick that person.


Glad we understand each other.

Anyway, these days if I have to invite pugs to fill in a slot I usually type something along the lines "hey we're doing this for set collections mostly, hope you don't mind opening chests" etc etc and if they don't say hi, don't write anything or interact with the grp in any way they're gone before the run even begins.

KalyanLazair wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

AuraoftheAzureSea wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

Think of it this way: if this addon didn't exist, collectors would ask for what dropped after every boss and dungeons would take a lot longer to complete.

Refuse to link what dropped? Kicked.


I can imagine that leading to a lot more drama and "intrusiveness" than what we have right now.

That's patently not true. Because this doesn't happen on console. People post up what they are looking for at the start of the dungeon and then when the dungeon is finished people link in chat and trade what they are willing to. And then everyone goes their separate way without spying on other people's drops.

People on console probably aren't used to seeing loot via addons.


All I can say is that if addons didn't exist & someone refused to link what dropped I'd kick them from group and probably add them on ignore so I wouldn't have them wasting potential RNG in the future.

This is mostly a non-issue though as I play with people I know, but every now and then when someone from the fixed group isn't available you do run into the "mute pug" whom you have to gently remove from group as they ignore your whispers after they get an item you need - even a "no sorry, I need this Toothrow Inferno Staff even though I miss 60 items from this dungeon and you miss one" would suffice but no, just silence.

Sorry, went off on a tangent there, but you wouldn't believe how often something like this happens when pugging (main reason I personally try to avoid that as much as possible).

In the end it is a MMO and you're supposed to interact with people in MMOs - most of them actually have group loot and need/greed rolls even, and the ones with personal loot tend to display who got what (look at World of Warcraft for instance, which got their version of personal loot in Mists of Pandaria).


In fact, seeing who gets what loot should be a base game feature and not something you need an addon for.

Wow. Suddenly, the earlier discussion about entitlement seems a lot more relevant to this thread.

Eh, it's not really about entitlement, more about just common decency and math.

I'm not about to go back 7 pages to read the conversation, but I'm assuming it's something along the lines of "you're not entitled to loot other people get", which is an argument that lacks a lot of detail.


Look at it this way: you run a dungeon and trade every single drop you got to a person (or people) missing most of them because that's what a decent human being is supposed to do (no, you don't really need those 500 gold from vendoring them that much).

Meanwhile that person gets the one item you've been after (1,6% drop chance with average 60 items that can drop from last boss/treasure chests), but refuses to trade it because he's also missing it.


If you're missing one piece from a dungeon your chances of getting a missing item are exponentially smaller than the chances for that other person missing 60 items.

Are they entitled to their loot? Sure.

I'm also entitled to never carrying their *** again and to adding them on my ignore list.


Anyway, moot point: when you're competing for top places in item set collection leaderboard you're not supposed to run with pugs anyway.

Just hoping this can explain how collectors who aren't as fortunate to being able to run with people they know might see this whole argument.

That's not human decency. Human decency is someone holding the door for you if you're carrying bags or a heavy load, not giving you a worthless virtual collectible that he got lucky with and you didn't.

I also run dungeons with pugs from time to time, and I don't expect anything from them, nor do I demand anything from them. If they want to give me something out of their own free will, I will appreciate it, and I will always give away what I want or don't need. I believe that is human decency, not expecting a rare staff in return just because you gave them three leg pieces.

Let me know when you have 6000+ items collected & 90-100% in most dungeons - will be interested to hear if you still feel that way. From what I read what you described is the casual POV of someone who still misses a lot of items.

Also, it's more like giving people those three leg pieces, a staff, a SnB, 2H, Maul from not just one dungeon but multiple of them and when one thing you need finally drops from a dungeon they don't want to give it to you.

I usually don't care much about it if I'm still missing 5+ items, but if it's the last item I'm missing & they're sucking up missing drops like a vacuum cleaner I might be slightly annoyed by that & hesitant to play with such a person again.

Who tells you I'm not there? I'm missing one-two pieces from many collections, and I totally still feel that way. What I described is the POV of someone who doesn't feel entitled to have someone else's rare drop just because they's missing more pieces than I am. If you're so desperate offer then a million gold, even I, who am a compulsive collector, will give you the piece.

robertthebard wrote: »

These addons go into the backend code, and change it's function.

Please read up on software engineering terms such as "APIs, backends" before spreading misinformation.

If an external program gains access to a backend code via an API and "changes its functions" (in a way unintended by devs of the backend or the API), then it is a major security flaw and should've been caught at the QA stage and never make it production. Atleast it would've been noted quick during live and fixed via security patches asap.

But that hasn't happened, the addon has been operational for 4+ years. Because it's not violating any laws or EULA. It is simply listening to certain messages sent by Addons API (this is ZoS property) and presenting you that information in a nicely formatted manner.

remosito wrote: »

KalyanLazair wrote: »

FluffyDoom wrote: »

If it's possible to do, seems to me that the diplomatic solution would be to enable a method to toggle on/off participation in sharing loot data. Why not let each player decide to share/not share as they wish?

Which is exactly what the OP is asking, and many of us believe it is a good idea. The base game does not display that information, and this addon works without the other person knowing it, so I don't think asking for it to be optional is such a ludicrous thing. It's the best solution for everyone.

there is no channel for addons to talk to other players addons. despite addon authors wanting one for ages. so the only way this could work is through chat channels.

addons spamming stuff into there is way more intrusive and obnoxious to me.

I presumed there might be some technical limitation. However, correct me if I'm wrong but, doesn't this addon already post into the chat channel the loot information? What would be the difference between you seeing my loot to me broadcasting it for you? How is that also different to me manually broadcasting it to the group? Because that is what I do.

I know, because of my friend, that it even displays menial stuff like crafting materials. How does it keep things tidy if you've got someone like me in group grabbing everything in the dungeon? I'm genuinely concerned.

Is it possible to create an addon that, with a button click perhaps, or while active, it broadcasts to the group what loot I'm getting?

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

BeefcakeManwich wrote: »

Haha this always cracks me up. It's group loot. So what if they know what dropped. Some games it's automatically built into it. Just don't respond. Problem solved. But why do I have to because they did and now it's harder for me to be left to myself in an mmo. Oh the run arounds of first world problems.

If it's group loot, then everybody in the group should get it.

If each person in the group got different loot, then it wasn't "group loot."

IMHO; YMMV and clearly does.

This type of "What's yours is mine" mentality is all the more reason not to play in a group, AFAIC.

How is asking 'can I have that (if you don't need it) please?' (from a player who just fought alongside you in a group activity but just had worse rng than you, not just a totally random player) an example of 'what yours is mine' mentality? Isn't it a prime example of team communication which is, you know, the very heart of an MMO? If such things make you feel uncomfortable, perhaps you should consider either not playing MMOs, avoiding group activities in MMOs, or perhaps work on that insecurity of yours a bit (I say that without the smallest intention of offence, it just is what it is - there's absolutely no reason that some stranger asking for something in text chat in a game should make you feel quite that uncomfortable).

You think that's how it gets asked? lmao

"<item> plz" is how it gets asked.

On the same token, how is saying "I'm looking for <item> if anybody loots any they don't need" at the beginning of a dungeon such a problem? Why do you have to download an app that goes through player's inventories so you can approach them like a panhandler with your hand out asking "gimme gimme gimme"?

Shorter form of the same thing. How is it an issue, honestly? What are they supposed to say, 'Dear amm7sb14_ESO, I'd like to apologize from the bottom of my heart for disturbing you and I in no mean imply to invade your privacy or lay claim to things rightfully yours, but if the Eight would have it that you don't need this gorgeous sword you just looted in any way, could you perhaps be so kind as to give it to this lowly unfortunate teammate of yours? Rest assured, I would be grateful for this grand gesture of kindness and generosity for the rest of my life, I would name all my kids amm7sb14/15/16 (etc in ascending order) after you and spread word of your kindness forever!'

People often do both (ask and use addon), because often people don't bother reading groupchat or even checking what loot they got. There have already been multiple people in this thread alone who've had accounts of whispering people about the loot they got and finding out they didn't actually notice they got it and were in fact more than happy to trade for it. It just makes it easier - instead of everyone having to track everything they get (while keeping in mind all the gear your teammates mentioned they need), the farmer can simply do it himself, saving everyone's time.

I can see why some people use the addon. I play on console, meaning I don't have addons to play half the game for me. I have to use my eyes and ears, so I always pay attention to what I loot in case someone needs something. I don't mind quickly scrolling up a few pages of text at the end of a dungeon to re-check if someone asked for something since finishing a dungeon tends to be a group effort, and the least I can do is help a group member with something that doesn't inconvenience me at all if they pulled their weight during the run.

That being said, it is kinda weird how some antisocial people don't play single-player games but come to multiplayer games and [snip] out at the slightest hint of human interaction, and this is coming from someone who's antisocial in real life. I wouldn't really care either way if this addon was on console because I quickly link gear between boss fights or at the end of the dungeon in case someone is looking for something, and I don't mind taking a couple seconds between bosses to trade. If someone asks for something I don't need, I have no problem giving it to them. If I do need it, I tell them I need it. People who'd whine about a drop you got are the same people who whine about your dps not being good enough, or drying up a fishing hole too quickly, or dying too much in battlegrounds, or something else you're probably already used to, so ignoring them in this case doesn't seem any more difficult than ignoring someone in zone chat who spams those scam prices to get people to cod them super cheap items to flip for a profit.

[Edited to remove Offensive Content]

perfiction wrote: »

KalyanLazair wrote: »

Again - I'm thinking about an addon that does the same but in reverse. Can I create an addon that displays my loot information on the chat? If it works with an API key I don't think it should be that difficult. Just display item where user == X, but I've never worked on any addon myself. I get what the addon does, I'm just wondering if the same principle can be used in reverse. Is it possible, or not?

Ahh now I get you. Yeah it's pretty similar to group logs, just add a check if user == you. You want to use that event mentioned before (it has lootedBy field). If yes, use chat API to link that gear in message (or save that item 'for later' and send everything you got at the end of the dungeon). If you want to send this to yourself only then it will be fine. If you want to send a message to group members it gets annoying - there is no way to automatically send a message from an addon (mainly to prevent spambot addons) to other people. Addons can only write the message for you, but you have to manually send them with enter key.

Thank you. That cleared things up a lot.

KalyanLazair wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

KalyanLazair wrote: »

FluffyDoom wrote: »

If it's possible to do, seems to me that the diplomatic solution would be to enable a method to toggle on/off participation in sharing loot data. Why not let each player decide to share/not share as they wish?

Which is exactly what the OP is asking, and many of us believe it is a good idea. The base game does not display that information, and this addon works without the other person knowing it, so I don't think asking for it to be optional is such a ludicrous thing. It's the best solution for everyone.

there is no channel for addons to talk to other players addons. despite addon authors wanting one for ages. so the only way this could work is through chat channels.

addons spamming stuff into there is way more intrusive and obnoxious to me.

I presumed there might be some technical limitation. However, correct me if I'm wrong but, doesn't this addon already post into the chat channel the loot information? What would be the difference between you seeing my loot to me broadcasting it for you? How is that also different to me manually broadcasting it to the group? Because that is what I do.

I know, because of my friend, that it even displays menial stuff like crafting materials. How does it keep things tidy if you've got someone like me in group grabbing everything in the dungeon? I'm genuinely concerned.

Is it possible to create an addon that, with a button click perhaps, or while active, it broadcasts to the group what loot I'm getting?

it posts to my chat because I tell it to post to my chat.I am the decider what shows up in my chat.
if I dont use addon my chat is clran.

in the other case it shows up in my chat because you decide whats in my chat. if I dont use addon my chat stays poluted.

Shantu wrote: »

The concept of "group loot" is BS used by people who need to justify what they think is their right to invade another's privacy. Ask me for a piece of gear I don't volunteer to offer and you get ignored. If I want to share something, I'll offer it up in chat. If not, it's nobody's business by my own.

Except (edit: with the current API implementation) it has nothing to do with privacy, because your loot information is sent to everyone in the group anyway, whether they use any addons or not. Blame ZOS, not players.

RedMuse wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Looking at the answers here I can understand why many players dont want to group up. I never had a problem with someone asking for something I looted, if I needed it myself I never received a salty or annoying reply. Personally Im just happy to give someone an item that they were looking for that I would otherwise sell or decon.

Congratulations on only having had positive experiences, I envy you. Personally for every person taking no for an answer nicely, I've had 3-4 that got salty, aggressive or outright toxic. Hence why I just slap an ignore on them these days and move on.

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

If you get annoyed but dont need the item you can always charge the player, you make some gold and the player is happy to get the item they're looking for.

Why would I give something to someone who annoys me? Even for (in-game) money? I'm not a shopkeeper, my living or survival does not depend on me selling something, so why in the world would I? Do you habitually do nice things for people who aggravate you in real life? Personally I don't unless it is part of my job and I can't avoid it, I'm not a door mat, and I see no reason why I should do so in a game I play for my enjoyment.

There is a difference between someone asking nicely and someone demanding something they didnt loot themselves. In the first case you can only blame yourself if you feel some form of irritation because its not their intent to be unpleasant.

In the second case I can understand the irritation, but its still your choice how you respond. If you dont want to 'reward' that bad behavior thats completely fine and your right to do so. If you want to leverage it for a price at least you get something positive out of it.

SilverBride wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

I think stastically, because I run so many dungeons, that I have grouped with someone that would, if they knew I had the add on, would have blocked me on principle alone.

Doesn't that tell you something? They would block you on principle. The principle being their privacy being violated so someone else can ask them for their loot.

If a player wants to share drops they don't need they will link them. But it's their drops and their decision what they do with them. Using an addon to breach that and put them on the spot is just wrong.

No, that add on does nothing to breach that. The loot is yours until you decide that youre willing to part with it for whatever reason. The add in no way changes the ownership.

But my question was, how is that mentality "middle ground?" It isnt and is not a reasonable position to take.

A neighbor down the street stopped by and asked me if I'd sell my boat. I do not have it listed and I havent offered it up for sale. I told him no, and he thanked me for my time. Was my privacy violated?

It does in fact tell me something, but I dont think it tells you the same thing.