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Two-Handed / Stamina in PvP is completely out of control
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Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Stam out of control ? LOL.
14k on 23k resists with the right champion points and 2300 resist crit.
Again, why are you guys bringing up MagSorc? It's by far the strongest Magicka spec and has been a top Magicka spec since launch back in 2014. MagSorc was never mediocre or underwhelming and shouldn't be considered in discussions about Magicka build. MagSorc is the only Magicka outlier over the years as it's performing very well in every single year of ESO (yes it had very, very short times where it was not on the top).Seraphayel wrote: »SshadowSscale wrote: »The 2h crowd won't allow adjustments to be made to 2h because other weapons are too weak yet when another weapon has something good going for it they immediately want it to get nerfed because nothing is allowed to be equal to 2h
Some classes are completely unplayable without 2h in a competitive environment so why would anyone in their right mind want 2h nerfed?
How about getting everything else in line then? Seems like a similar issue with proc sets where some classes just need them to perform competitively. The problem is, Stamina is already the way better option for PvP. And having the most OP PvP weapon on top of it doesn’t help, it just makes the problems worse.
Sorry but if you think Stam is the better option for PvP when there’s literally Magicka groups in Cyrodiil destroying entire zergs then there’s no reasonable discussion to be had here. 2h is an entirely single target skill tree and it’s supposed to be useful in 1v1 or small scale situations so calling for nerfs like OP is doing to a skill tree that functions well at what it’s supposed to is just completely wrong.
As I said before, every build in a group is strong. A group of Stamina builds is as strong as a group of Magicka builds when they're composed similarly. Groups shouldn't matter at all as it's facerolling enemies due to sheer mass.
2h is undeniably better than any other weapon skill line in PvP and on some classes it's superior to Magicka in every way. There's not one weak Stamina spec in game, all of them are performing incredibly well in PvP. This cannot be said about Magicka specs, which were highly dependent on proc sets to be even competitive. Besides that, several Magicka specs are just weaker in comparison, especially when you directly compare them to their Stamina counterparts (Magden vs. Stamden, Magcro vs. Stamcro, Magblade vs. Stamblade).
It's undeniable that (2h) Stamina is overperforming and, maybe besides Magsorcs, always outperforming their Magicka counterpart. Tell me how is that possible when classes usually have more Magicka options, but Magicka weapons are very limited? Is it not the case that Magicka builds have way worse weapon / Magicka skills outside of classes than Stamina has (when we factor in that Stamina has less options from class skills)?PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -0 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »Stam out of control ? LOL.
14k on 23k resists with the right champion points and 2300 resist crit.
Again, why are you guys bringing up MagSorc? It's by far the strongest Magicka spec and has been a top Magicka spec since launch back in 2014. MagSorc was never mediocre or underwhelming and shouldn't be considered in discussions about Magicka build. MagSorc is the only Magicka outlier over the years as it's performing very well in every single year of ESO (yes it had very, very short times where it was not on the top).Seraphayel wrote: »SshadowSscale wrote: »The 2h crowd won't allow adjustments to be made to 2h because other weapons are too weak yet when another weapon has something good going for it they immediately want it to get nerfed because nothing is allowed to be equal to 2h
Some classes are completely unplayable without 2h in a competitive environment so why would anyone in their right mind want 2h nerfed?
How about getting everything else in line then? Seems like a similar issue with proc sets where some classes just need them to perform competitively. The problem is, Stamina is already the way better option for PvP. And having the most OP PvP weapon on top of it doesn’t help, it just makes the problems worse.
Sorry but if you think Stam is the better option for PvP when there’s literally Magicka groups in Cyrodiil destroying entire zergs then there’s no reasonable discussion to be had here. 2h is an entirely single target skill tree and it’s supposed to be useful in 1v1 or small scale situations so calling for nerfs like OP is doing to a skill tree that functions well at what it’s supposed to is just completely wrong.
As I said before, every build in a group is strong. A group of Stamina builds is as strong as a group of Magicka builds when they're composed similarly. Groups shouldn't matter at all as it's facerolling enemies due to sheer mass.
2h is undeniably better than any other weapon skill line in PvP and on some classes it's superior to Magicka in every way. There's not one weak Stamina spec in game, all of them are performing incredibly well in PvP. This cannot be said about Magicka specs, which were highly dependent on proc sets to be even competitive. Besides that, several Magicka specs are just weaker in comparison, especially when you directly compare them to their Stamina counterparts (Magden vs. Stamden, Magcro vs. Stamcro, Magblade vs. Stamblade).
It's undeniable that (2h) Stamina is overperforming and, maybe besides Magsorcs, always outperforming their Magicka counterpart. Tell me how is that possible when classes usually have more Magicka options, but Magicka weapons are very limited? Is it not the case that Magicka builds have way worse weapon / Magicka skills outside of classes than Stamina has (when we factor in that Stamina has less options from class skills)?
Stamplars would love to have a word about that no weak stamina spec thing.
Also, solo and small-scale openworld pvp isn't the only thing out there yknow.
2 hander does sweet f all in a medium to large sized group with its single target spammable and single target execute that people love to complain about.
Also Stam groups being as strong as mag?
Oh, boy.. It's like we are not even playing the same game.4 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »Stam out of control ? LOL.
14k on 23k resists with the right champion points and 2300 resist crit.
Again, why are you guys bringing up MagSorc? It's by far the strongest Magicka spec and has been a top Magicka spec since launch back in 2014. MagSorc was never mediocre or underwhelming and shouldn't be considered in discussions about Magicka build. MagSorc is the only Magicka outlier over the years as it's performing very well in every single year of ESO (yes it had very, very short times where it was not on the top).Seraphayel wrote: »SshadowSscale wrote: »The 2h crowd won't allow adjustments to be made to 2h because other weapons are too weak yet when another weapon has something good going for it they immediately want it to get nerfed because nothing is allowed to be equal to 2h
Some classes are completely unplayable without 2h in a competitive environment so why would anyone in their right mind want 2h nerfed?
How about getting everything else in line then? Seems like a similar issue with proc sets where some classes just need them to perform competitively. The problem is, Stamina is already the way better option for PvP. And having the most OP PvP weapon on top of it doesn’t help, it just makes the problems worse.
Sorry but if you think Stam is the better option for PvP when there’s literally Magicka groups in Cyrodiil destroying entire zergs then there’s no reasonable discussion to be had here. 2h is an entirely single target skill tree and it’s supposed to be useful in 1v1 or small scale situations so calling for nerfs like OP is doing to a skill tree that functions well at what it’s supposed to is just completely wrong.
As I said before, every build in a group is strong. A group of Stamina builds is as strong as a group of Magicka builds when they're composed similarly. Groups shouldn't matter at all as it's facerolling enemies due to sheer mass.
2h is undeniably better than any other weapon skill line in PvP and on some classes it's superior to Magicka in every way. There's not one weak Stamina spec in game, all of them are performing incredibly well in PvP. This cannot be said about Magicka specs, which were highly dependent on proc sets to be even competitive. Besides that, several Magicka specs are just weaker in comparison, especially when you directly compare them to their Stamina counterparts (Magden vs. Stamden, Magcro vs. Stamcro, Magblade vs. Stamblade).
It's undeniable that (2h) Stamina is overperforming and, maybe besides Magsorcs, always outperforming their Magicka counterpart. Tell me how is that possible when classes usually have more Magicka options, but Magicka weapons are very limited? Is it not the case that Magicka builds have way worse weapon / Magicka skills outside of classes than Stamina has (when we factor in that Stamina has less options from class skills)?
Stamplars would love to have a word about that no weak stamina spec thing.
Also, solo and small-scale openworld pvp isn't the only thing out there yknow.
2 hander does sweet f all in a medium to large sized group with its single target spammable and single target execute that people love to complain about.
Also Stam groups being as strong as mag?
Oh, boy.. It's like we are not even playing the same game.
There is no Stamina vs. Magicka groups. Every group with a decent size that’s considered a ball group is composed of Magicka and Stamina specs and most likely tanks and healers on top of that. So this group discussion is really pointless as there is no consensus on group composition.
When we talk about 4-man-groups as in battlegrounds, Stamina builds are as strong as Magicka builds, if not stronger, as others have said here that Stamina / 2h is strong in 1v1 or small groups.
So Magicka builds are only allowed to be strong in groups, but even in battlegrounds Stamina reigns those small groups? I see an issue here when Magicka only is strong when it comes in masses.
And by the way, Stamplar in PvP is not worse than Magplar. Remove proc sets from the equations, especially when Magicka builds have to suffer even more as their place of being strong (mass PvP, as people said here) is the only place where proc sets - which were necessary to make Magicka builds compete - don’t work for the next 3 months.PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭e: nevermind.Again, why are you guys bringing up MagSorc? It's by far the strongest Magicka spec and has been a top Magicka spec since launch back in 2014. MagSorc was never mediocre or underwhelming and shouldn't be considered in discussions about Magicka build. MagSorc is the only Magicka outlier over the years as it's performing very well in every single year of ESO (yes it had very, very short times where it was not on the top).
Your making exceptions for the strongest mag spec that does well in PvP but rant about the strongest stam weapon that seems to be designed with PvP in mind. Just saying. Exclude magsorc, fine, but then imagine how your stamina toons would perform without dizzy, executioner and rally, if you have any.Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on March 17, 2021 7:27PM0 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Id say magsorcs are pretty crazy right now, but dizzy swing is also an incredibly overloaded skill with the range, dmg and stun all built into it.
PC EU
PvP only1 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »e: nevermind.Again, why are you guys bringing up MagSorc? It's by far the strongest Magicka spec and has been a top Magicka spec since launch back in 2014. MagSorc was never mediocre or underwhelming and shouldn't be considered in discussions about Magicka build. MagSorc is the only Magicka outlier over the years as it's performing very well in every single year of ESO (yes it had very, very short times where it was not on the top).
Your making exceptions for the strongest mag spec that does well in PvP but rant about the strongest stam weapon that seems to be designed with PvP in mind. Just saying. Exclude magsorc, fine, but then imagine how your stamina toons would perform without dizzy, executioner and rally, if you have any.
The difference is, we’re talking about class vs. weapon here. Due to 2h, every class can perform very well, some are incredibly powerful. When it comes to MagSorcs, only MagSorcs are incredibly powerful and all the other Magicka specs are totally unaffected by it. There’s a huge difference if one weapon makes 6 different classes very strong in PvP or if one class is especially overperforming. That’s why talking about MagSorc here makes not much sense, and I already acknowledged several times how strong they are - but that’s one class out of six in one build variant, so out of 12, we’re talking about here. There are 5 other Magicka classes that suffere more or less to an extent (and in most cases it’s more not less).PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »e: nevermind.Again, why are you guys bringing up MagSorc? It's by far the strongest Magicka spec and has been a top Magicka spec since launch back in 2014. MagSorc was never mediocre or underwhelming and shouldn't be considered in discussions about Magicka build. MagSorc is the only Magicka outlier over the years as it's performing very well in every single year of ESO (yes it had very, very short times where it was not on the top).
Your making exceptions for the strongest mag spec that does well in PvP but rant about the strongest stam weapon that seems to be designed with PvP in mind. Just saying. Exclude magsorc, fine, but then imagine how your stamina toons would perform without dizzy, executioner and rally, if you have any.
The difference is, we’re talking about class vs. weapon here. Due to 2h, every class can perform very well, some are incredibly powerful. When it comes to MagSorcs, only MagSorcs are incredibly powerful and all the other Magicka specs are totally unaffected by it. There’s a huge difference if one weapon makes 6 different classes very strong in PvP or if one class is especially overperforming. That’s why talking about MagSorc here makes not much sense, and I already acknowledged several times how strong they are - but that’s one class out of six in one build variant, so out of 12, we’re talking about here. There are 5 other Magicka classes that suffere more or less to an extent (and in most cases it’s more not less).
And yet it seems this thread asks for a nerf to 2h.
Will your mag X perform better or will it pull the rug from under most stamina classes (as you said yourself: "due to 2h, every class can perform very well")?2 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Only reason mag sorc is even in this discussion is that they were the one class that wore non proc sets for the most part before they were banned. Mag Sorc did get a buff relative to other classes, because they really didnt need to change their gear to fit the new rules. Stam is still completely dominate in virtually every aspect of PVP. Sorcs can keep up in open world Cyro, and they can probably pad a KB count in low MMR BGs, but that is about it.
Stamina has been overperforming in PVP for years now. I don't even pretend to know what the fix is. It is also extremely difficult to balance a game that performs as poorly as ESO does in PVP. Some classes just do better in a high lag environment, and as a general rule, stam is better than mag when the lag is high.
Roll Dodge is also ridiculously overpowered as a defense mechanic. When I play stam against a mag sorc, one roll doge turns their burst combo into a wet noodle and two negates it almost completely. Once I get cursed, I just roll and laugh.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on March 17, 2021 9:50PM2 -
TwinLamps✭✭✭✭✭
✭Seraphayel wrote: »
As I said before, every build in a group is strong. A group of Stamina builds is as strong as a group of Magicka builds when they're composed similarly. Groups shouldn't matter at all as it's facerolling enemies due to sheer mass.
What you wrote here shows your knowledge related to any kind of PvP, from solo to GvG.
You simply need to learn more.Awake, but at what cost4 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »2H is what every weapon-line should be. Good mix of decent skills, solid utility, specialized abilities to fill out the holes in classes.
This.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »MurderMostFoul wrote: »Simple solution:
Give DW better Major Brut and spammable.
SnB/Bow can stay as is. I don't mind them as support/niche options rather than main stam damage options.
Better solution. Give magicka access to universal execute, gap closer and major sorcery.
One doesn't exclude the other.
If you exclusively bring Destro (or whatever) up to speed the "hurr durr, every stam I meet that kills me is a Dizzy Bot" cries will continue.
Begs the question which mag class that doesn't already has one needs an universal gap closer? @Mayrael
I'd rather see Empowering Chains buffed (to not be treated as a projectile).
E: not to be picky, but degeneration is more of an universal source of major sorcery than Rally is one for brutality, as it doesn't binds you to a weapon.
There is a reason why magDKs don't use chains, also magden and magcro would like to have a chat with you about gapclosers.
Degeneration requires target meaning you can't refresh it on you without target which slow downs momentum of attack.
I agree that SnB/DW and Bow should be brought up to 2h but we can't forget about mag classes in great scheme of things, they still exists and need fair treatment.I'm done with this game because of ZOS pushing us into Vengeance, because they don't know how to fix Cyrodiil.1 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »
As I said before, every build in a group is strong. A group of Stamina builds is as strong as a group of Magicka builds when they're composed similarly. Groups shouldn't matter at all as it's facerolling enemies due to sheer mass.
What you wrote here shows your knowledge related to any kind of PvP, from solo to GvG.
You simply need to learn more.
Which group only consists of Magicka builds? Which group only consists of Stamina builds? This group argument is pretty lame if you ask me.
Tell me, how do I as a Magicka build, counter Stamdens, Stamcros or any other 2h/Stamina spec in 1v1 or small group content? One can not assume you’re always running in groups, not even in Cyrodiil. At least not ball groups.
So again, what’s the counter to Stamina builds? From Stamina players the solution seems to be a learn to play issue, so please educate me and tell me how to counter them.PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -0 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Stam out of control ? LOL.
14k on 23k resists with the right champion points and 2300 resist crit.
Again, why are you guys bringing up MagSorc? It's by far the strongest Magicka spec and has been a top Magicka spec since launch back in 2014. MagSorc was never mediocre or underwhelming and shouldn't be considered in discussions about Magicka build. MagSorc is the only Magicka outlier over the years as it's performing very well in every single year of ESO (yes it had very, very short times where it was not on the top).Seraphayel wrote: »SshadowSscale wrote: »The 2h crowd won't allow adjustments to be made to 2h because other weapons are too weak yet when another weapon has something good going for it they immediately want it to get nerfed because nothing is allowed to be equal to 2h
Some classes are completely unplayable without 2h in a competitive environment so why would anyone in their right mind want 2h nerfed?
How about getting everything else in line then? Seems like a similar issue with proc sets where some classes just need them to perform competitively. The problem is, Stamina is already the way better option for PvP. And having the most OP PvP weapon on top of it doesn’t help, it just makes the problems worse.
Sorry but if you think Stam is the better option for PvP when there’s literally Magicka groups in Cyrodiil destroying entire zergs then there’s no reasonable discussion to be had here. 2h is an entirely single target skill tree and it’s supposed to be useful in 1v1 or small scale situations so calling for nerfs like OP is doing to a skill tree that functions well at what it’s supposed to is just completely wrong.
As I said before, every build in a group is strong. A group of Stamina builds is as strong as a group of Magicka builds when they're composed similarly. Groups shouldn't matter at all as it's facerolling enemies due to sheer mass.
2h is undeniably better than any other weapon skill line in PvP and on some classes it's superior to Magicka in every way. There's not one weak Stamina spec in game, all of them are performing incredibly well in PvP. This cannot be said about Magicka specs, which were highly dependent on proc sets to be even competitive. Besides that, several Magicka specs are just weaker in comparison, especially when you directly compare them to their Stamina counterparts (Magden vs. Stamden, Magcro vs. Stamcro, Magblade vs. Stamblade).
It's undeniable that (2h) Stamina is overperforming and, maybe besides Magsorcs, always outperforming their Magicka counterpart. Tell me how is that possible when classes usually have more Magicka options, but Magicka weapons are very limited? Is it not the case that Magicka builds have way worse weapon / Magicka skills outside of classes than Stamina has (when we factor in that Stamina has less options from class skills)?
Stamplars would love to have a word about that no weak stamina spec thing.
Also, solo and small-scale openworld pvp isn't the only thing out there yknow.
2 hander does sweet f all in a medium to large sized group with its single target spammable and single target execute that people love to complain about.
Also Stam groups being as strong as mag?
Oh, boy.. It's like we are not even playing the same game.
There is no Stamina vs. Magicka groups. Every group with a decent size that’s considered a ball group is composed of Magicka and Stamina specs and most likely tanks and healers on top of that. So this group discussion is really pointless as there is no consensus on group composition.
When we talk about 4-man-groups as in battlegrounds, Stamina builds are as strong as Magicka builds, if not stronger, as others have said here that Stamina / 2h is strong in 1v1 or small groups.
So Magicka builds are only allowed to be strong in groups, but even in battlegrounds Stamina reigns those small groups? I see an issue here when Magicka only is strong when it comes in masses.
And by the way, Stamplar in PvP is not worse than Magplar. Remove proc sets from the equations, especially when Magicka builds have to suffer even more as their place of being strong (mass PvP, as people said here) is the only place where proc sets - which were necessary to make Magicka builds compete - don’t work for the next 3 months.
I don't know which bgs you've been in lately, but mag toons are doing fine there, more than fine.Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »
As I said before, every build in a group is strong. A group of Stamina builds is as strong as a group of Magicka builds when they're composed similarly. Groups shouldn't matter at all as it's facerolling enemies due to sheer mass.
What you wrote here shows your knowledge related to any kind of PvP, from solo to GvG.
You simply need to learn more.
Which group only consists of Magicka builds? Which group only consists of Stamina builds? This group argument is pretty lame if you ask me.
Tell me, how do I as a Magicka build, counter Stamdens, Stamcros or any other 2h/Stamina spec in 1v1 or small group content? One can not assume you’re always running in groups, not even in Cyrodiil. At least not ball groups.
So again, what’s the counter to Stamina builds? From Stamina players the solution seems to be a learn to play issue, so please educate me and tell me how to counter them.
I don't particularly struggle vs any Stam specs on my magplar magblade magDK etc.
If it's dizzy spam you block/dodge, and apply as much pressure as you can, or line up burst like you would anyway.
I'm not sure if there a one size fits all counter, it will come down to what you are playing and what their playing.
My 6 light armor Templar mostly just keeps its distance and plays defensive/kites, and I go on the offensive when I see a window to counter attack.1 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »2H is what every weapon-line should be. Good mix of decent skills, solid utility, specialized abilities to fill out the holes in classes.
This.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »MurderMostFoul wrote: »Simple solution:
Give DW better Major Brut and spammable.
SnB/Bow can stay as is. I don't mind them as support/niche options rather than main stam damage options.
Better solution. Give magicka access to universal execute, gap closer and major sorcery.
One doesn't exclude the other.
If you exclusively bring Destro (or whatever) up to speed the "hurr durr, every stam I meet that kills me is a Dizzy Bot" cries will continue.
Begs the question which mag class that doesn't already has one needs an universal gap closer? @Mayrael
I'd rather see Empowering Chains buffed (to not be treated as a projectile).
E: not to be picky, but degeneration is more of an universal source of major sorcery than Rally is one for brutality, as it doesn't binds you to a weapon.
There is a reason why magDKs don't use chains, also magden and magcro would like to have a chat with you about gapclosers.
Degeneration requires target meaning you can't refresh it on you without target which slow downs momentum of attack.
I agree that SnB/DW and Bow should be brought up to 2h but we can't forget about mag classes in great scheme of things, they still exists and need fair treatment.
We absolutely shouldn't forget about mag classes, I agree with that.0 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Stam out of control ? LOL.
14k on 23k resists with the right champion points and 2300 resist crit.
Again, why are you guys bringing up MagSorc? It's by far the strongest Magicka spec and has been a top Magicka spec since launch back in 2014. MagSorc was never mediocre or underwhelming and shouldn't be considered in discussions about Magicka build. MagSorc is the only Magicka outlier over the years as it's performing very well in every single year of ESO (yes it had very, very short times where it was not on the top).Seraphayel wrote: »SshadowSscale wrote: »The 2h crowd won't allow adjustments to be made to 2h because other weapons are too weak yet when another weapon has something good going for it they immediately want it to get nerfed because nothing is allowed to be equal to 2h
Some classes are completely unplayable without 2h in a competitive environment so why would anyone in their right mind want 2h nerfed?
How about getting everything else in line then? Seems like a similar issue with proc sets where some classes just need them to perform competitively. The problem is, Stamina is already the way better option for PvP. And having the most OP PvP weapon on top of it doesn’t help, it just makes the problems worse.
Sorry but if you think Stam is the better option for PvP when there’s literally Magicka groups in Cyrodiil destroying entire zergs then there’s no reasonable discussion to be had here. 2h is an entirely single target skill tree and it’s supposed to be useful in 1v1 or small scale situations so calling for nerfs like OP is doing to a skill tree that functions well at what it’s supposed to is just completely wrong.
As I said before, every build in a group is strong. A group of Stamina builds is as strong as a group of Magicka builds when they're composed similarly. Groups shouldn't matter at all as it's facerolling enemies due to sheer mass.
2h is undeniably better than any other weapon skill line in PvP and on some classes it's superior to Magicka in every way. There's not one weak Stamina spec in game, all of them are performing incredibly well in PvP. This cannot be said about Magicka specs, which were highly dependent on proc sets to be even competitive. Besides that, several Magicka specs are just weaker in comparison, especially when you directly compare them to their Stamina counterparts (Magden vs. Stamden, Magcro vs. Stamcro, Magblade vs. Stamblade).
It's undeniable that (2h) Stamina is overperforming and, maybe besides Magsorcs, always outperforming their Magicka counterpart. Tell me how is that possible when classes usually have more Magicka options, but Magicka weapons are very limited? Is it not the case that Magicka builds have way worse weapon / Magicka skills outside of classes than Stamina has (when we factor in that Stamina has less options from class skills)?
Stamplars would love to have a word about that no weak stamina spec thing.
Also, solo and small-scale openworld pvp isn't the only thing out there yknow.
2 hander does sweet f all in a medium to large sized group with its single target spammable and single target execute that people love to complain about.
Also Stam groups being as strong as mag?
Oh, boy.. It's like we are not even playing the same game.
There is no Stamina vs. Magicka groups. Every group with a decent size that’s considered a ball group is composed of Magicka and Stamina specs and most likely tanks and healers on top of that. So this group discussion is really pointless as there is no consensus on group composition.
When we talk about 4-man-groups as in battlegrounds, Stamina builds are as strong as Magicka builds, if not stronger, as others have said here that Stamina / 2h is strong in 1v1 or small groups.
So Magicka builds are only allowed to be strong in groups, but even in battlegrounds Stamina reigns those small groups? I see an issue here when Magicka only is strong when it comes in masses.
And by the way, Stamplar in PvP is not worse than Magplar. Remove proc sets from the equations, especially when Magicka builds have to suffer even more as their place of being strong (mass PvP, as people said here) is the only place where proc sets - which were necessary to make Magicka builds compete - don’t work for the next 3 months.
I don't know which bgs you've been in lately, but mag toons are doing fine there, more than fine.Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »
As I said before, every build in a group is strong. A group of Stamina builds is as strong as a group of Magicka builds when they're composed similarly. Groups shouldn't matter at all as it's facerolling enemies due to sheer mass.
What you wrote here shows your knowledge related to any kind of PvP, from solo to GvG.
You simply need to learn more.
Which group only consists of Magicka builds? Which group only consists of Stamina builds? This group argument is pretty lame if you ask me.
Tell me, how do I as a Magicka build, counter Stamdens, Stamcros or any other 2h/Stamina spec in 1v1 or small group content? One can not assume you’re always running in groups, not even in Cyrodiil. At least not ball groups.
So again, what’s the counter to Stamina builds? From Stamina players the solution seems to be a learn to play issue, so please educate me and tell me how to counter them.
I don't particularly struggle vs any Stam specs on my magplar magblade magDK etc.
If it's dizzy spam you block/dodge, and apply as much pressure as you can, or line up burst like you would anyway.
I'm not sure if there a one size fits all counter, it will come down to what you are playing and what their playing.
My 6 light armor Templar mostly just keeps its distance and plays defensive/kites, and I go on the offensive when I see a window to counter attack.
Compared to what Stamina has to offer, Magicka lloses in most departments in PvP:
- No spammable comparable to 2h.
- No execute comparable to 2h.
- Less chances of breaking free than 2h / Stamina.
- More vulnerable due to light armor.
- Less dodge rolling than 2h / Stamina.
- Skills cost more and hit for less / do less than Stamina counterparts.
- Magicka skills are often very telegraphed or can easily be blocked / dodge rolled as they’re often projectiles.
- Line of sight for Magicka is way trickier than for 2h / Stamina.
The only real advantage of Magicka is the range which is totally neglected by all the gap closers that can be spammed and the overwhelming amount of snares or CC stamina builds can throw on you. Sure, you can do the same, but again, it’s incredibly easy for Stamina builds to close the gap whereas it’s - except for Sorcs - incredibly hard or impossible to get away from Stamina builds. Add the best possible defense in ESO (dodge roll) to it and you have a clear advantage in combat.PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -0 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Stam out of control ? LOL.
14k on 23k resists with the right champion points and 2300 resist crit.
Again, why are you guys bringing up MagSorc? It's by far the strongest Magicka spec and has been a top Magicka spec since launch back in 2014. MagSorc was never mediocre or underwhelming and shouldn't be considered in discussions about Magicka build. MagSorc is the only Magicka outlier over the years as it's performing very well in every single year of ESO (yes it had very, very short times where it was not on the top).Seraphayel wrote: »SshadowSscale wrote: »The 2h crowd won't allow adjustments to be made to 2h because other weapons are too weak yet when another weapon has something good going for it they immediately want it to get nerfed because nothing is allowed to be equal to 2h
Some classes are completely unplayable without 2h in a competitive environment so why would anyone in their right mind want 2h nerfed?
How about getting everything else in line then? Seems like a similar issue with proc sets where some classes just need them to perform competitively. The problem is, Stamina is already the way better option for PvP. And having the most OP PvP weapon on top of it doesn’t help, it just makes the problems worse.
Sorry but if you think Stam is the better option for PvP when there’s literally Magicka groups in Cyrodiil destroying entire zergs then there’s no reasonable discussion to be had here. 2h is an entirely single target skill tree and it’s supposed to be useful in 1v1 or small scale situations so calling for nerfs like OP is doing to a skill tree that functions well at what it’s supposed to is just completely wrong.
As I said before, every build in a group is strong. A group of Stamina builds is as strong as a group of Magicka builds when they're composed similarly. Groups shouldn't matter at all as it's facerolling enemies due to sheer mass.
2h is undeniably better than any other weapon skill line in PvP and on some classes it's superior to Magicka in every way. There's not one weak Stamina spec in game, all of them are performing incredibly well in PvP. This cannot be said about Magicka specs, which were highly dependent on proc sets to be even competitive. Besides that, several Magicka specs are just weaker in comparison, especially when you directly compare them to their Stamina counterparts (Magden vs. Stamden, Magcro vs. Stamcro, Magblade vs. Stamblade).
It's undeniable that (2h) Stamina is overperforming and, maybe besides Magsorcs, always outperforming their Magicka counterpart. Tell me how is that possible when classes usually have more Magicka options, but Magicka weapons are very limited? Is it not the case that Magicka builds have way worse weapon / Magicka skills outside of classes than Stamina has (when we factor in that Stamina has less options from class skills)?
Stamplars would love to have a word about that no weak stamina spec thing.
Also, solo and small-scale openworld pvp isn't the only thing out there yknow.
2 hander does sweet f all in a medium to large sized group with its single target spammable and single target execute that people love to complain about.
Also Stam groups being as strong as mag?
Oh, boy.. It's like we are not even playing the same game.
There is no Stamina vs. Magicka groups. Every group with a decent size that’s considered a ball group is composed of Magicka and Stamina specs and most likely tanks and healers on top of that. So this group discussion is really pointless as there is no consensus on group composition.
When we talk about 4-man-groups as in battlegrounds, Stamina builds are as strong as Magicka builds, if not stronger, as others have said here that Stamina / 2h is strong in 1v1 or small groups.
So Magicka builds are only allowed to be strong in groups, but even in battlegrounds Stamina reigns those small groups? I see an issue here when Magicka only is strong when it comes in masses.
And by the way, Stamplar in PvP is not worse than Magplar. Remove proc sets from the equations, especially when Magicka builds have to suffer even more as their place of being strong (mass PvP, as people said here) is the only place where proc sets - which were necessary to make Magicka builds compete - don’t work for the next 3 months.
I don't know which bgs you've been in lately, but mag toons are doing fine there, more than fine.Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »
As I said before, every build in a group is strong. A group of Stamina builds is as strong as a group of Magicka builds when they're composed similarly. Groups shouldn't matter at all as it's facerolling enemies due to sheer mass.
What you wrote here shows your knowledge related to any kind of PvP, from solo to GvG.
You simply need to learn more.
Which group only consists of Magicka builds? Which group only consists of Stamina builds? This group argument is pretty lame if you ask me.
Tell me, how do I as a Magicka build, counter Stamdens, Stamcros or any other 2h/Stamina spec in 1v1 or small group content? One can not assume you’re always running in groups, not even in Cyrodiil. At least not ball groups.
So again, what’s the counter to Stamina builds? From Stamina players the solution seems to be a learn to play issue, so please educate me and tell me how to counter them.
I don't particularly struggle vs any Stam specs on my magplar magblade magDK etc.
If it's dizzy spam you block/dodge, and apply as much pressure as you can, or line up burst like you would anyway.
I'm not sure if there a one size fits all counter, it will come down to what you are playing and what their playing.
My 6 light armor Templar mostly just keeps its distance and plays defensive/kites, and I go on the offensive when I see a window to counter attack.
Compared to what Stamina has to offer, Magicka lloses in most departments in PvP:
- No spammable comparable to 2h.
- No execute comparable to 2h.
- Less chances of breaking free than 2h / Stamina.
- More vulnerable due to light armor.
- Less dodge rolling than 2h / Stamina.
- Skills cost more and hit for less / do less than Stamina counterparts.
- Magicka skills are often very telegraphed or can easily be blocked / dodge rolled as they’re often projectiles.
- Line of sight for Magicka is way trickier than for 2h / Stamina.
The only real advantage of Magicka is the range which is totally neglected by all the gap closers that can be spammed and the overwhelming amount of snares or CC stamina builds can throw on you. Sure, you can do the same, but again, it’s incredibly easy for Stamina builds to close the gap whereas it’s - except for Sorcs - incredibly hard or impossible to get away from Stamina builds. Add the best possible defense in ESO (dodge roll) to it and you have a clear advantage in combat.
Yeah, no.
Plenty on strong Magicka spammables out there, puncturing sweeps, whip(both morph really), ele weapon is also really good, you can set up some solid burst combos, lots of magsorcs use it, I even run it on my magblade for extra burst out of cloak.
Both endless fury and jbeam are decent executes, granted these are class based.
I already said destro staff should get a proper execute.
Light armor was break free cost reduction this very patch, something that not even medium armor has.
Also dodger cost reduction.
Oh and our base stats went up.
My magplar has 18-19k Stam without even trying, my stamplar barely has 27k.
Its not that big a difference.
Yes stamina skills generally cost less than their Magicka counterparts, Beacuse on top of you spending stamina for core combat skills, you also have to spend the same resource for your skills.
Minor Magicka steal was added to the game a long time ago for this very reason.
Exactly what Magicka skills are more telegraphed then their Stam counterparts?
They have the same animation Exept maybe coloring for the most part.
Surely you don't mean dizzy as not well telegraphed...
How is line of sight harder for Magicka? You have the same tools as stamina to build movespeed, which is capped regardless of what armor you are wearing.
Medium armor gets a small movespeed boost when cc immune, that's usually a whopping 5-7%...
Race aganist time is a Magicka skill which gives both major expedition and removed snares and roots(oh and minor crit dmg buff to moot).
At least half of the Magicka classes are close/mid range at core.
Magplar(well can be played ranged like I do, but most of the class' tokot is geared better towards melee), magDK, and even magden since shalks don't have massive range.
This magnb, which is mostly played as ranged and while cloak can be kinda buggy, shade does help with kiting a lot.. Magsorc is a given.
Magcros, frankly not a great solo class, but an absolute beast in a grp.
Honestly, I looked all you posted, and you come across as someone who plays some very glass cannon but slow Magicka build, and then complains when you get clapped.
My magplar literally runs all swift and steed with rat so I can actually kite around and to Los.
I play about as many mag builds as I do Stam, and honestly you have to play into the strengths into the specific class on Magicka more than you have to on Stam.
That's probably the biggest difference between the two.4 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »Stam out of control ? LOL.
14k on 23k resists with the right champion points and 2300 resist crit.
Again, why are you guys bringing up MagSorc? It's by far the strongest Magicka spec and has been a top Magicka spec since launch back in 2014. MagSorc was never mediocre or underwhelming and shouldn't be considered in discussions about Magicka build. MagSorc is the only Magicka outlier over the years as it's performing very well in every single year of ESO (yes it had very, very short times where it was not on the top).Seraphayel wrote: »SshadowSscale wrote: »The 2h crowd won't allow adjustments to be made to 2h because other weapons are too weak yet when another weapon has something good going for it they immediately want it to get nerfed because nothing is allowed to be equal to 2h
Some classes are completely unplayable without 2h in a competitive environment so why would anyone in their right mind want 2h nerfed?
How about getting everything else in line then? Seems like a similar issue with proc sets where some classes just need them to perform competitively. The problem is, Stamina is already the way better option for PvP. And having the most OP PvP weapon on top of it doesn’t help, it just makes the problems worse.
Sorry but if you think Stam is the better option for PvP when there’s literally Magicka groups in Cyrodiil destroying entire zergs then there’s no reasonable discussion to be had here. 2h is an entirely single target skill tree and it’s supposed to be useful in 1v1 or small scale situations so calling for nerfs like OP is doing to a skill tree that functions well at what it’s supposed to is just completely wrong.
As I said before, every build in a group is strong. A group of Stamina builds is as strong as a group of Magicka builds when they're composed similarly. Groups shouldn't matter at all as it's facerolling enemies due to sheer mass.
2h is undeniably better than any other weapon skill line in PvP and on some classes it's superior to Magicka in every way. There's not one weak Stamina spec in game, all of them are performing incredibly well in PvP. This cannot be said about Magicka specs, which were highly dependent on proc sets to be even competitive. Besides that, several Magicka specs are just weaker in comparison, especially when you directly compare them to their Stamina counterparts (Magden vs. Stamden, Magcro vs. Stamcro, Magblade vs. Stamblade).
It's undeniable that (2h) Stamina is overperforming and, maybe besides Magsorcs, always outperforming their Magicka counterpart. Tell me how is that possible when classes usually have more Magicka options, but Magicka weapons are very limited? Is it not the case that Magicka builds have way worse weapon / Magicka skills outside of classes than Stamina has (when we factor in that Stamina has less options from class skills)?
Stamplars would love to have a word about that no weak stamina spec thing.
Also, solo and small-scale openworld pvp isn't the only thing out there yknow.
2 hander does sweet f all in a medium to large sized group with its single target spammable and single target execute that people love to complain about.
Also Stam groups being as strong as mag?
Oh, boy.. It's like we are not even playing the same game.
There is no Stamina vs. Magicka groups. Every group with a decent size that’s considered a ball group is composed of Magicka and Stamina specs and most likely tanks and healers on top of that. So this group discussion is really pointless as there is no consensus on group composition.
When we talk about 4-man-groups as in battlegrounds, Stamina builds are as strong as Magicka builds, if not stronger, as others have said here that Stamina / 2h is strong in 1v1 or small groups.
So Magicka builds are only allowed to be strong in groups, but even in battlegrounds Stamina reigns those small groups? I see an issue here when Magicka only is strong when it comes in masses.
And by the way, Stamplar in PvP is not worse than Magplar. Remove proc sets from the equations, especially when Magicka builds have to suffer even more as their place of being strong (mass PvP, as people said here) is the only place where proc sets - which were necessary to make Magicka builds compete - don’t work for the next 3 months.
I don't know which bgs you've been in lately, but mag toons are doing fine there, more than fine.Seraphayel wrote: »Seraphayel wrote: »
As I said before, every build in a group is strong. A group of Stamina builds is as strong as a group of Magicka builds when they're composed similarly. Groups shouldn't matter at all as it's facerolling enemies due to sheer mass.
What you wrote here shows your knowledge related to any kind of PvP, from solo to GvG.
You simply need to learn more.
Which group only consists of Magicka builds? Which group only consists of Stamina builds? This group argument is pretty lame if you ask me.
Tell me, how do I as a Magicka build, counter Stamdens, Stamcros or any other 2h/Stamina spec in 1v1 or small group content? One can not assume you’re always running in groups, not even in Cyrodiil. At least not ball groups.
So again, what’s the counter to Stamina builds? From Stamina players the solution seems to be a learn to play issue, so please educate me and tell me how to counter them.
I don't particularly struggle vs any Stam specs on my magplar magblade magDK etc.
If it's dizzy spam you block/dodge, and apply as much pressure as you can, or line up burst like you would anyway.
I'm not sure if there a one size fits all counter, it will come down to what you are playing and what their playing.
My 6 light armor Templar mostly just keeps its distance and plays defensive/kites, and I go on the offensive when I see a window to counter attack.
Compared to what Stamina has to offer, Magicka lloses in most departments in PvP:
- No spammable comparable to 2h.
- No execute comparable to 2h.
- Less chances of breaking free than 2h / Stamina.
- More vulnerable due to light armor.
- Less dodge rolling than 2h / Stamina.
- Skills cost more and hit for less / do less than Stamina counterparts.
- Magicka skills are often very telegraphed or can easily be blocked / dodge rolled as they’re often projectiles.
- Line of sight for Magicka is way trickier than for 2h / Stamina.
The only real advantage of Magicka is the range which is totally neglected by all the gap closers that can be spammed and the overwhelming amount of snares or CC stamina builds can throw on you. Sure, you can do the same, but again, it’s incredibly easy for Stamina builds to close the gap whereas it’s - except for Sorcs - incredibly hard or impossible to get away from Stamina builds. Add the best possible defense in ESO (dodge roll) to it and you have a clear advantage in combat.
Yeah, no.
Plenty on strong Magicka spammables out there, puncturing sweeps, whip(both morph really), ele weapon is also really good, you can set up some solid burst combos, lots of magsorcs use it, I even run it on my magblade for extra burst out of cloak.
Both endless fury and jbeam are decent executes, granted these are class based.
I already said destro staff should get a proper execute.
Light armor was break free cost reduction this very patch, something that not even medium armor has.
Also dodger cost reduction.
Oh and our base stats went up.
My magplar has 18-19k Stam without even trying, my stamplar barely has 27k.
Its not that big a difference.
Yes stamina skills generally cost less than their Magicka counterparts, Beacuse on top of you spending stamina for core combat skills, you also have to spend the same resource for your skills.
Minor Magicka steal was added to the game a long time ago for this very reason.
Exactly what Magicka skills are more telegraphed then their Stam counterparts?
They have the same animation Exept maybe coloring for the most part.
Surely you don't mean dizzy as not well telegraphed...
How is line of sight harder for Magicka? You have the same tools as stamina to build movespeed, which is capped regardless of what armor you are wearing.
Medium armor gets a small movespeed boost when cc immune, that's usually a whopping 5-7%...
Race aganist time is a Magicka skill which gives both major expedition and removed snares and roots(oh and minor crit dmg buff to moot).
At least half of the Magicka classes are close/mid range at core.
Magplar(well can be played ranged like I do, but most of the class' tokot is geared better towards melee), magDK, and even magden since shalks don't have massive range.
This magnb, which is mostly played as ranged and while cloak can be kinda buggy, shade does help with kiting a lot.. Magsorc is a given.
Magcros, frankly not a great solo class, but an absolute beast in a grp.
Honestly, I looked all you posted, and you come across as someone who plays some very glass cannon but slow Magicka build, and then complains when you get clapped.
My magplar literally runs all swift and steed with rat so I can actually kite around and to Los.
I play about as many mag builds as I do Stam, and honestly you have to play into the strengths into the specific class on Magicka more than you have to on Stam.
That's probably the biggest difference between the two.
So to summarize, as half of the Magicka specs are mid range to melee, they lose their advantage of being a ranged spec compared to Stamina and you have to work more as a Magicka spec to bring out their specific strengths - and you don’t see an issue here?
And how LoS hurts (ranged) Magicka specs more? Is that a serious question?
Race against Time can be used by Stamina builds as well.
The rest... okay, not necessarily disagreeing. But I find it a bit strange how the strengths of 2h/Stamina seem to be god given yet Magicka has to work for it or come in a group to stand a chance - something’s not adding up here.PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -0 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭lol ranged player complains about 2 handers who have to be close to do damage
Which, as already has been pointed out a dozen times, is no problem due to the amount of gap closers or snares Stamina builds have available. It’s way harder to get away from a melee build as a ranged player than for a melee build to get to a ranged player - to say otherwise is disingenuous. The only ranged Magicka build that can effectively run from Stamina builds is Sorc due to Streak - that’s it.Edited by Seraphayel on March 19, 2021 12:56AMPS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -0 -
ealdwin✭✭✭✭✭
✭Joy_Division wrote: »2H is what every weapon-line should be. Good mix of decent skills, solid utility, specialized abilities to fill out the holes in classes.
This.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »MurderMostFoul wrote: »Simple solution:
Give DW better Major Brut and spammable.
SnB/Bow can stay as is. I don't mind them as support/niche options rather than main stam damage options.
Better solution. Give magicka access to universal execute, gap closer and major sorcery.
One doesn't exclude the other.
If you exclusively bring Destro (or whatever) up to speed the "hurr durr, every stam I meet that kills me is a Dizzy Bot" cries will continue.
Begs the question which mag class that doesn't already has one needs an universal gap closer? @Mayrael
I'd rather see Empowering Chains buffed (to not be treated as a projectile).
E: not to be picky, but degeneration is more of an universal source of major sorcery than Rally is one for brutality, as it doesn't binds you to a weapon.
There is a reason why magDKs don't use chains, also magden and magcro would like to have a chat with you about gapclosers.
Degeneration requires target meaning you can't refresh it on you without target which slow downs momentum of attack.
I agree that SnB/DW and Bow should be brought up to 2h but we can't forget about mag classes in great scheme of things, they still exists and need fair treatment.
Agreed regarding Degeneration. While the lack of weapon requirement makes it a good source of Major Sorcery, the fact that it requires a target means not as beneficial as it could be. I'd much rather have the ability to activate the buff prior to opening attack. It was slightly better before the Dragonhold patch absolutely destroyed Entropy and its morphs, where either option provided Major Sorcery and the choice was between more sustain or a heal over time.
It's why 2H actually is a good weapon line, because it has a universal access to Major Brutality that can be cast before combat and provides more utility beyond the buff.1 -
ealdwin✭✭✭✭✭
✭Seraphayel wrote: »lol ranged player complains about 2 handers who have to be close to do damage
Which, as already has been pointed out a dozen times, is no problem due to the amount of gap closers or snares Stamina builds have available. It’s way harder to get away from a melee build as a ranged player than for a melee build to get to a ranged player - to say otherwise is disingenuous. The only ranged Magicka build that can effectively run from Stamina builds is Sorc due to Streak - that’s it.
This. The problem right now with Magicka builds has more to do with how well they can operate defensively and offensively at the distance they are currently optimized to operate at.
Magsorcs have been consistently strong because they not only are designed to operate at a distance, but because they also have tools to put themselves at that range—they can capitalize on their strengths.
This is why 2H, DW, and S&B all have gap closers as well. They are there to help melee focused Stam builds operate at their strength, by allowing their users to put themselves in melee range, where their defenses are also stronger.1 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »lol ranged player complains about 2 handers who have to be close to do damage
Which, as already has been pointed out a dozen times, is no problem due to the amount of gap closers or snares Stamina builds have available. It’s way harder to get away from a melee build as a ranged player than for a melee build to get to a ranged player - to say otherwise is disingenuous. The only ranged Magicka build that can effectively run from Stamina builds is Sorc due to Streak - that’s it.
This. The problem right now with Magicka builds has more to do with how well they can operate defensively and offensively at the distance they are currently optimized to operate at.
Magsorcs have been consistently strong because they not only are designed to operate at a distance, but because they also have tools to put themselves at that range—they can capitalize on their strengths.
This is why 2H, DW, and S&B all have gap closers as well. They are there to help melee focused Stam builds operate at their strength, by allowing their users to put themselves in melee range, where their defenses are also stronger.
How are stamina defenses stronger in melee range?
Anyhow, my point about mag specs having to lean more on the class toolkit, is that, that's what they're tooled for, and it's not a bad thing.
Apart from necro and warden, the other classes were designed when the mag vs Stam split weren't a thing, and it shows.
While Zos has gone a long way of giving more class based options to Stam players, it's still a far cry from what Magicka gets in most cases.
Just look at things like poop rock for Stam DK, and absolutely trash spammable.
Stamsorcs have bound armaments as their burst skill, but barely anyone uses it for anything other then it's passive bonuses.
The thing about mag specs being stronger in grp play is just a fact really.
Superior cross healing, area denial, higher constant pressure, usually higher aoe pressure as well.
Stam is more burst, but it's not always what wins fights in group play.
And group play does matter.
The vast majority of eso pvp does not revolve around solo gameplay, even if watching eso content creators might give you that feeling.
Most people in cyrodiil either zerg or play with friends.
BGs are by their nature group based.
IC, is well dead most of the time, but during events it's mostly groups and zergs as well.
I wish this mindset that every spec has to be great for solo 1vx and 1v1 gameplay would go away.
It's okay for some specs to perform better in certain aspects of the game than others.
The divide could be smaller for sure.
I'd love to see more stamblades in med to large sized groups, but alas...2
