Two-Handed / Stamina in PvP is completely out of control

Seraphayel

Title.

I absolutely do not understand how it is possible that Two-Handed and Stamina builds in general are still so incredibly overpowered. Stamina is reigning PvP in battlegrounds and Cyrodiil and it hasn’t changed in the last years. Unfortunately this hasn’t to do much with sets as Two-Handed in combination with some classes is just incredibly strong and dishes out tons of damage you can neither escape nor survive.

There’s a reason why most enemies you face in PvP are Stamina builds with two-handed weapons. On top of that come the usual Stamden or Stamcro which are out of control on their own and know basically no limits. Throw some Werewolves into the mix and you have Stamina builds completely dominating each mode of PvP. Yes, you’ll find some MagSorcs on top of it as they’re as strong as they’ve been in the last years, but it’s undeniable that Two-Hander is simply overperforming.

Why is nothing done against it? You can’t escape those builds as they just have their charge or pull ability. They have their super strong burst on top of the best spammable and one of the strongest executes in game. And if that’s not enough, just throw constant dodge rolling into the mix and you create the dominance of 2h Stamina builds we have for +2 years now. This needs to get fixed ASAP or other builds brought in line. There’s a reason why everybody and their mother is playing 2h Stamina.

(I‘m not mentioning tank builds as they’re heavily reliable on proc sets and this has been disabled for the next three months, at least - but yes, tank meta is / was as bad)

Rant over. Obligatory git gut.

orion_1981usub17_ESO

They were once even more powerful when dizzy swings did a debuff and a stun. Anyway stamina really only seem to overperform when chunking squishies...which their suppose to do, They are a big weapon hitting you. The real issue is who is using them. If you got a heavy armor two hander using speed buffs that move insanely quickly for those not sporting immobilize, your gonna have a bad day. A two hander is always gonna choose the player they can chunk quickly to the other heavy two hander.

The major issue is not their damage but your willingness to be near enough to get hit. And I wish magicka had more range, like the bow snipe. But no light armor should expect to take more than a few uppercuts before the executioner. and if their a warden or necro your gonna get hit by the skelly or the bugs at the same time because your fighting a two hander who in melee.

If your ranged squishy and your not on a wall or a roof or have folks blocking with immobilize for you, your gonna have a bad day, you cant stand toe to toe with competent heavies using two-handers out where they're gonna charge you and put pressure on you... unless your a magsorc... then port away!

ArchMikem

They build for Regen and burst. Run away and kite, kite, kite until turn right around and Dizzy Light Attack Ultimate or Execute. If you can recover from the burst its right back to running away and repeat. Or if they know you can't handle them they just spam Dizzy until you're mush.

Anyway yeh I don't like the 2Handed meta either.

Solariken

I think if SnB and DW had better sourcing for Major Brutality there would be a lot more diversity. Major Brutality is basically required to kill anyone competent, and the only reliable way for some classes to get it is Rally.

Athan1

Stamina can do everything magicka does, cheaper and stronger. There is literally no reason to play magicka apart from the flashy effects or healing trifecta runs.

Can't complain, I'm useless in pvp but stam-2h carried me to get the Midyear Wreath

Vetixio

This has been the case for years now, One Stamriel was the start of the Elder Stamina Online tbh. Before that the game was relatively balanced and Stam and Mag were fairly equal. Now its Stam >>>>>>> Mag.

Trinotops

The other stam weapons suck. SnB and Bow don't have a source of Major Brutality nor an execute. Dual wield has an execute but it's aoe oriented (which is fine in some cases). DW also has Major Brutality, but it's tied to a bad spammable. And then Dswing is just better than pretty much all of the other weapon spammables (most of the class spammables too) due to it its high damage and stun.
That being said, I'd rather see a buff to the alternatives than a nerf to 2h. I don't want to end up a snipe spammer due to zos' habit of over-nerfing things.

MrDenimChicken

Yeah I want some more variety. I get tired of 2h gameplay on my stam sorc.

In general this game just doesn't have enough class or weapon abilities. So you get certain classes or certain skill lines with access to something that's easy to put into your 10 skill slots, but other classes or skill lines don't get those abilities that provide something essential enough to put into the 10 skill slots.

INe_Saninus

This has now become a buff 1h and shield, dual wield, and bow thread.

VoidCommander

Went to Imperial City sewers the other day because I was fed up with the non-proc cyrodiil I had endured for the past 3 weeks. My stamplar merced 4 AD in about 15 seconds because of the Maelstrom greatsword, unleashed terror, malacath, and deadly sets. No Dizzy swing or executioner needed, but stamina is very strong in areas where you can use procs.

finehair

You can clip through player characters. That means you can easily get a line of sight on dizzy by just walking through the caster just saying.
Dizzying got nerfed multiple times over the years what are you talking about? It used to knock the enemies down+more damage on first cast you could go full sauron smashing down people with it
You mostly see 2h Stam players not because dizzying swing is op, it's because other alternatives are utter useless.
Flurry hits like a wet noodle and it's desynched a lot more than any other skill i used, even dizzying.
Whirling blades is ok, maybe a little bit costly, but considering lack of reliable major brutality in duel wield skill line..
One handed-shield, shield bash is a really good spammable, but since the stunning morph doesn't deal full damage when your opponent has stun immunity and the other morph lacks stun it's meh again. Skill line has major breach and ulti regen attached to it if you can find a free slot to use it. But again, no major brutality to speak of here
And bow spammable snipe can be interrupted in close combat so not even considering it
Also I don't know any good class stam spammable other than templar jabs and surprise attack
You can have some good delayed burst on necro and warden, while spamming some other skill in between
Crystal weapon or whatever the hell it name was; really really not usable in pvp, doesn't worth spending a skill slot.
Floaty rocks are also meh, slow and clunky but being ranged is a good thing (Stam whip mentioning is a must here)

Sarousse

Stam out of control ? LOL.



14k on 23k resists with the right champion points and 2300 resist crit.

Qbiken

People still believe stamina is the superior option? Will be interesting when people realise the truth and wake up

insert "you're finally awake meme" here

Vanya

Magic is a true strength and always shall be. Sorcerers are Evil. Two-handed Stamina melee build is archaic and uncivilized overall. It looks awkward to me personally thus I cannot stand it.

"I absolutely do not understand how it is possible that Two-Handed and Stamina builds in general are still so incredibly overpowered" Quoting Original Poster.

You should understand nature of MMO. Notion behind it was never balance and never will, It simply never existed. Also tis untrue to state that "everyone and their mother" plays Two handed stamina. Quoting again you.

I for instance highly dislike giant bulky Warhammers,axes and even swords. I prefer my Altmer Female Goddess sorcerer.

I do not understand why obviously experienced player like you I am looking at your posts and stars still gets disappointed and had to create a thread on something that is very common these days in any Player vs Player enviroment. The Elder scrolls online is not an exception to rule. There is always some specific build that is "dominating" and may be super strong for certain period of time, but its not a right way to say that "everyone plays 2H Stamina" Again simply, not true.

thatESOdude

Seraphayel wrote: »

Title.

I absolutely do not understand how it is possible that Two-Handed and Stamina builds in general are still so incredibly overpowered. Stamina is reigning PvP in battlegrounds and Cyrodiil and it hasn’t changed in the last years. Unfortunately this hasn’t to do much with sets as Two-Handed in combination with some classes is just incredibly strong and dishes out tons of damage you can neither escape nor survive.

There’s a reason why most enemies you face in PvP are Stamina builds with two-handed weapons. On top of that come the usual Stamden or Stamcro which are out of control on their own and know basically no limits. Throw some Werewolves into the mix and you have Stamina builds completely dominating each mode of PvP. Yes, you’ll find some MagSorcs on top of it as they’re as strong as they’ve been in the last years, but it’s undeniable that Two-Hander is simply overperforming.

Why is nothing done against it? You can’t escape those builds as they just have their charge or pull ability. They have their super strong burst on top of the best spammable and one of the strongest executes in game. And if that’s not enough, just throw constant dodge rolling into the mix and you create the dominance of 2h Stamina builds we have for +2 years now. This needs to get fixed ASAP or other builds brought in line. There’s a reason why everybody and their mother is playing 2h Stamina.

(I‘m not mentioning tank builds as they’re heavily reliable on proc sets and this has been disabled for the next three months, at least - but yes, tank meta is / was as bad)

Rant over. Obligatory git gut.

...have you tried hitting a dizzy swing in this lag?

Guess not

Pauwer

The lag works both ways. Sometimes you can't cast any stamina skills at all, so you have to play aoe mag instead to be able to, uhh, hit anything. But sometimes you appear to be hit by multiple stam skills all at once, even if you are running, dodging, blocking, everything. I dunno, seems to be all down to the lag.

silky_soft

Could say the same out destro. But that's not the real problem. Bunkering with the ability to sustain is the real enemy.

Block cost is too low compared to other defences.
Being bashed should increase block cost.
The more you get hit with block up the more it should cost to hold up block.
Block should have stacks plus a cooldown timer like dodge and streak. Alternatively you get knocked out of block after a certain amount of hits.
There needs to be more heal absorption and shield absorption sources.
Shields need the same treatment dodge has got.
No HP regen while in dodge immunity.
Bring back the real shield breaker and oblivion enchants.

Leave damage, as crazy as it is sometimes, look at how op defense is. Imagine if HP regen, heal, block, dodge, streak, shields had as many counters as cloak does.

SshadowSscale

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

They were once even more powerful when dizzy swings did a debuff and a stun. Anyway stamina really only seem to overperform when chunking squishies...which their suppose to do, They are a big weapon hitting you. The real issue is who is using them. If you got a heavy armor two hander using speed buffs that move insanely quickly for those not sporting immobilize, your gonna have a bad day. A two hander is always gonna choose the player they can chunk quickly to the other heavy two hander.

The major issue is not their damage but your willingness to be near enough to get hit. And I wish magicka had more range, like the bow snipe. But no light armor should expect to take more than a few uppercuts before the executioner. and if their a warden or necro your gonna get hit by the skelly or the bugs at the same time because your fighting a two hander who in melee.

If your ranged squishy and your not on a wall or a roof or have folks blocking with immobilize for you, your gonna have a bad day, you cant stand toe to toe with competent heavies using two-handers out where they're gonna charge you and put pressure on you... unless your a magsorc... then port away!

Funny thing is if you play a ranged char be it bow or mag caster and you even dare to move out of dizzy range the other player will cry about you being a coward and running away from the fight and blah blah blah..... so unless you are fine with getting the message calling you a coward everytime you put some distance between you and your opponent to use your advantage of being ranged.... you best stay where he can hit you with dizzy
Edit: Also I find it extremely funny how 2 hander players can say stuff like bow is op nerf bow or destro is op nerf it etc but don't you dare even consider saying 2hander is op because you are wrong and 2hander is clearly the weakest weapon in the game..... when in fact for pvp it is the clear and cut best weapon in the game.... better than dual wield better than sword and board better than destro and better than bow...... but hey it's the weakest according to 2hander players

Jeirno

MagSorcs say hi.

Adernath

Unfortunately it has always been like that: Stamden with 2H and heavy armor meta.

For me the biggest problem (vs. good players) is the combination of their damage output and tankiness (or fast heal regen), so it is hard to make any pressure on them. They can just go full offensive by alternating between DS and sub-assault.

Its not that 2H is way overperforming IMO, but some minor adjusments are required. For example, if DS could be interrupted to set the opponent off-balance, it would help. Or if there would be more ways to prevent the constant healing (e.g. in WoW one can counter-spell a heal as mage and lock out all heals for a given amount of time, to make pressure on an opponent).

Another option would be if the damage output of ranged abilities are slightly increased. People here say bow is useless. Well, similar this can be said for the standard light/heavy attack of staffs: They are basically useless, because it is telegraphed very easily and can be dodged/blocked rather simple. If the damage output would be higher as compensation of this disadvantage, it would force a meele char to perform more dodge rolls to avoid getting hit and not just eat these attacks or spam gap closers mindlessly.

Vlad9425

Most Ball groups are 70% magicka builds and 30% Stam dudes with Whirling blades and you say a single target skill tree like 2H is the problem? Most people using 2H are solo or in very small scale groups and are skilled at the game so how does that warrant any kind of nerf to 2H?

Or is this just another case of someone who barely PvPs calling for nerfs? 🤔

techprince

This is why a spammable should not be slowing, stunning, off-balance and doing crazy damage all at once.

Seraphayel

e.gamemarkb14_ESO wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

Okay, please enlighten me on how to dodge or defend against someone spamming 2h abilities all while class abilities like Blastbones, Assault etc. are coming in between - I can’t get away as I am snared, trapped, stunned - even if I manage to get away, a gap closer will bring them instantly to me again (and will stun me or deal damage, on top of that). Sure, I am able to dodge roll, but how often? As a non-Stamina build you need your Stamina to break free. Blocking barely helps. So at best I can get one or maybe two dodge rolls into the mix, all while I still have to face them because I can’t get away.

What are my options? I can’t kill them because next to their massive damage they have very high self-healing and can constantly dodge roll (more than I can) because all of their skills are cheaper than Magicka-counterparts and their Stamina regen is way higher than mine. So yes, if it’s a L2P issue, tell me how to play and win against them.

Some other arguments in this thread:

1. I specifically mentioned MagSorc as a spec that’s always been performing very good. It’s the only Magicka spec to do so since launch. So please don’t bring up MagSorc as an argument to counter my statement on 2h being too strong.

2. Why bringing ball groups / zergs into this? Every class and spec is strong when it comes in a huge zerg. It doesn’t matter if you face 10 Magicka and 10 Stamina builds in a zerg or 15 Magicka and 5 Stamina. A zerg is a zerg, winning with overwhelming the enemy is the credo here.

3. Magicka builds don’t have a strong execute and spammable like 2h. Force Pulse compared to DS is the loser in almost every scenario, Executioner for Magicka builds isn’t existing. Classes have to rely on their own Magicka spammables (most of which are worse than DS) or executes (and 3 classes don’t have class executes at all). Paired with the high mobility Magicka builds have almost no way to keep distance to melees, in this case 2h players.

4. Hitting in melee range is always easier than hitting from casting range, even concerning the lag that’s plaguing all of us. Many projectiles can easily be blocked or dodge rolled as they’re highly telegraphed - good luck telling apart melee animations when you’re not fighting 1vs1. Plus melee range often isn’t even melee range due to the desync and delays. You often get hit by melee attacks (DS and Executioner in this case) when you’re already 7-10m away from your enemy. This shouldn’t be the case.

All I’ve read here are people telling others to git gud or learn to play, but I haven’t seen many responses directly talking about the huge advantages of 2h Stamina builds in PvP. There’s a reason why it’s the most played build in PvP and it’s not because everyone just loves the fantasy of being a fighter with a huge twohander. It’s because 2h / Stamina is really strong and very forgiving when it comes to execution.

Faded

Vlad9425 wrote: »

Most Ball groups are 70% magicka builds and 30% Stam dudes with Whirling blades and you say a single target skill tree like 2H is the problem? Most people using 2H are solo or in very small scale groups and are skilled at the game so how does that warrant any kind of nerf to 2H?

The complaint is that magicka specs who aren't sorcs would also like to be solo or in small scale groups and be competitive with those high-skill 2H players.

Edit: with the same power for the same amount of effort. Bring on the L2Ps.

spartaxoxo

Vlad9425 wrote: »

Most Ball groups are 70% magicka builds and 30% Stam dudes with Whirling blades and you say a single target skill tree like 2H is the problem? Most people using 2H are solo or in very small scale groups and are skilled at the game so how does that warrant any kind of nerf to 2H?

Or is this just another case of someone who barely PvPs calling for nerfs? 🤔

If Stamina is highly usable in all forms of PVP, and Magicka is usable mostly only in ball groups, then that doesn't sound balanced. I was iffy before this post but it actually reinforced OP's point to me.

Like you've just dismissed them from like three quarters of pvp and that's supposed to indicate there's no issue?

Joy_Division

Sarousse wrote: »

Stam out of control ? LOL.



14k on 23k resists with the right champion points and 2300 resist crit.

I got hit with a 18K Merciless. That's just the way the game is right now.

Vlad9425

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Vlad9425 wrote: »

Most Ball groups are 70% magicka builds and 30% Stam dudes with Whirling blades and you say a single target skill tree like 2H is the problem? Most people using 2H are solo or in very small scale groups and are skilled at the game so how does that warrant any kind of nerf to 2H?

Or is this just another case of someone who barely PvPs calling for nerfs? 🤔

If Stamina is highly usable in all forms of PVP, and Magicka is usable mostly only in ball groups, then that doesn't sound balanced. I was iffy before this post but it actually reinforced OP's point to me.

Like you've just dismissed them from like three quarters of pvp and that's supposed to indicate there's no issue?

Magicka IS usable in all forms of PvP

[Edit to remove bait]

Sarousse

Also I agree with you on the fact that wrecking blow is way too overloaded and makes all other weapon skills look useless, actually, on my stamsorc, in the current meta, I'm hell a lot more deadly with dual wield and Whirlwind Blades spamming than with wrecking blow, doing a lot more kills in every BG/Cyrodiil session.

itscompton

Solariken wrote: »

I think if SnB and DW had better sourcing for Major Brutality there would be a lot more diversity. Major Brutality is basically required to kill anyone competent, and the only reliable way for some classes to get it is Rally.

Don't forget that Rally is also by far the best burst heal available to any stamina character. And then there's the fact the skill line has another ability that is a high damage spammable that sets enemies off balance and stuns plus another one that is the most reliable, fastest firing execute in the game and it's easy to see why it's considered OP.
It truly feels like every other weapon skill line was designed for PvE with some PvP utility thrown in as an afterthought, while the skills in 2H were designed from the start to be used for PvP.

Sneakers

Reason why mag sorc does well is due to tripple shield and streak coupled with high burst and high "pressure" from OL and fury.

The idea behind every successfull pvp build is:

- Survive long enough to set up ur own burst.

- Have several layers of burst that can be set up so when they all hit your TT burst > target hp.


- Cc when ur layered burst hits (knockback > fears > stuns. The more your CC desynch the better)


- execute


- bonus is if ur spammable can hedge ur burst / if ur exec can be fire and forget


If your build doesnt fullfill all of the above then u cannot compete "fairly" 1:1 with:

StamDK
StamNec
StamDen
MagSorc


If you give Magden/MagDK a 3rd big shield and a timered exec like fury they will start breaking the game as well - hard.

If you give Magcro mobility + a knock down CC with built in exec - they will rek people as well. ( knock up CC with fury exec timer)

Parasaurolophus

If you haven't noticed it yet, then the balance in PVP has been ignored for a long time and no one knows what it is. Is it because of poor performance in Cyro or because pvp is not popular in this game? I dont know. But the fact that lately more and more people are talking about the problems in pvp gives me hope that sooner or later ZoS will still tackle the balance.
Also, disabling proc sets in Cyrodiil is a very rude and wrong decision, but forced. I think every style of play should have a right to be.